#82 – 西蒙·斯涅克：领导力、努力工作、乐观主义与无限游戏

接下来是与西蒙·西内克的对话，他是几本书的作者，包括《从为什么开始》、《领导者最后吃》以及他的最新作品《无限游戏》。

The following is a conversation with Simon Sinek, author of several books, including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, and his latest, "The Infinite Game."

他是最能传达成为优秀领导者所需素质、激励他人以及建立解决重大难题的企业的人之一。

He's one of the best communicators of what it takes to be a good leader, to inspire, and to build businesses that solve big, difficult challenges.

这里是《人工智能播客》。

This is the "Artificial Intelligence Podcast."

如果你喜欢这个节目，请在YouTube上订阅，在Apple Podcasts上给它五星评价，在Patreon上支持它，或者直接在Twitter上联系我，我的用户名是Lex Fridman，拼写为F-R-I-D-M-A-N。

If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter at Lex Fridman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N.

和往常一样，我现在会播放一两分钟的广告，之后在对话中间不会插入任何广告，以免打断交流的流畅性。

As usual, I'll do one or two minutes of ads now and never any ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation.

希望这样对你们来说没问题，不会影响收听体验。

I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience.

广告的简要介绍。

Quick summary of the ads.

两个赞助商：Cash App和Masterclass。

Two sponsors: Cash App and Masterclass.

请考虑通过下载Cash App并使用代码LexPodcast，以及在masterclass.com/lex上注册Masterclass来支持这个播客。

Please consider supporting the podcast by downloading Cash App and using code LexPodcast and signing up to Masterclass at masterclass.com/lex.

本期节目由Cash App呈现，它是App Store中排名第一的金融应用。

This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store.

下载后，请使用代码LexPodcast。

When you get it, use code LexPodcast.

Cash App让你可以向朋友发送资金、购买比特币，并且只需1美元就能投资股票市场。

Cash App lets you send money to friends, buy Bitcoin, and invest in the stock market with as little as $1.

既然Cash App允许你购买比特币，让我提一下，加密货币在货币历史的背景下非常引人入胜。

Since Cash App allows you to buy Bitcoin, let me mention that cryptocurrency in the context of the history of money is fascinating.

我推荐《货币崛起》这本书，它很好地讲述了这段历史。

I recommend "Ascent of Money" as a great book on this history.

账本上的借贷记录大约始于三万年前。

Debits and credits on ledgers started around 30,000 years ago.

美元创建于两百多年前，而比特币，第一种去中心化的加密货币，在十多年前才发布。

The US dollar created over 200 years ago, and Bitcoin, the first decentralized cryptocurrency, released just over 10 years ago.

所以，鉴于这段历史，加密货币仍然处于发展的早期阶段，但它仍然致力于并且可能重新定义货币的本质。

So given that history, cryptocurrency is still very much in its early days of development, but is still aiming to and just might redefine the nature of money.

所以再说一遍，如果你从App Store或Google Play下载Cash App并使用代码LexPodcast，你会得到10美元，Cash App也会向First捐赠10美元，这是一个帮助推动全球年轻人机器人技术和STEM教育的组织。

So again, if you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use the code LexPodcast, you get $10, and Cash App will also donate $10 to First, an organization that is helping to advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world.

本期节目由Masterclass赞助。

This show is sponsored by Masterclass.

在masterclass.com/lex注册，可以获得折扣并支持本播客。

Sign up at masterclass.com/lex to get a discount and to support this podcast.

当我第一次听说Masterclass时，说实话，我觉得这太好了，简直难以置信。

When I first heard about Masterclass, I honestly thought it was too good to be true.

每年180美元，你就可以获得全访问权限，观看来自各自领域顶尖专家的课程。

For $180 a year, you get an all-access pass to watch courses from experts at the top of their field.

列举一些我最喜欢的：克里斯·哈德菲尔德讲太空探索，尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森讲科学思维和沟通，威尔·赖特，SimCity和Sims的创造者，讲游戏设计。

To list some of my favorites, Chris Hadfield on space exploration, Neil deGrasse Tyson on scientific thinking and communication, Will Wright, the creator of SimCity and Sims, on game design.

我喜欢那个游戏。

I love that game.

还有珍·古道尔讲环保，卡洛斯·桑塔纳——我最喜欢的吉他手之一——讲吉他，加里·卡斯帕罗夫讲国际象棋。

Jane Goodall on conservation, Carlos Santana, one of my favorite guitarists, on guitar, Garry Kasparov on chess.

显然，我是俄罗斯人。

Obviously, I'm Russian.

我很喜欢加里。

I love Garry.

丹尼尔·内格里诺讲扑克，他是我最喜欢的扑克玩家之一。

Daniel Negreanu on poker, one of my favorite poker players.

另外，菲尔·艾维也有课程，还有很多很多其他的。

Also, Phil Ivey gives a course as well, and many, many more.

光是听克里斯·哈德菲尔德讲火箭怎么运作，以及被发射到太空的体验，就值回票价了。

Chris Hadfield explaining how rockets work and the experience of being launched into space alone is worth the money.

说到建议，对我来说，关键就是不要被琳琅满目的选择搞得不知所措。

By way of advice, for me, the key is not to be overwhelmed by the abundance of choice.

挑三门你想完成的课程，从头到尾完整看完每一门。

Pick three courses you want to complete, watch each all the way through from start to finish.

时间不长，但那种体验会让你久久难忘，我保证。

It's not that long, but it's an experience that will stick with you for a long time, I promise.

绝对物有所值。

It's easily worth the money.

基本上任何设备上都能看。

You can watch it on basically any device.

再次提醒，去 masterclass.com/lex 注册就能享受折扣，同时也能支持这个播客。

Once again, sign up at masterclass.com/lex to get a discount and to support this podcast.

现在，献上我和西蒙·西内克的对话。

And now, here's my conversation with Simon Sinek.

在你最近的书《无限游戏》中，你描述了有限游戏和无限游戏。

In "The Infinite Game," your most recent book, you describe the finite game and the infinite game.

所以从人工智能和博弈论的角度来看，我非常喜欢有限游戏，从广义哲学意义上说，在机器人、人工智能领域，我们知道如何处理这类问题。

So from my perspective of artificial intelligence and game theory in general, I'm a huge fan of finite games from the broad philosophical sense as something that in the robotics, artificial intelligence space, we know how to deal with.

然后你描述了无限游戏，它没有确切的静态规则，没有明确的静态目标，玩家有已知的、未知的，而且会变化。

And then you describe the infinite game, which has no exact static rules, has no well-defined static objective, the players are known, unknown, they change.

这里就有动态的元素。

There's the dynamic element.

所以这适用于商业、政治，乃至生活本身。

So this is something that applies to business, politics, life itself.

那么，你能试着阐述一下无限游戏的目标函数是什么吗？

So can you try to articulate the objective function here of the infinite game?

或者用一句老话说，人生的意义是什么？

Or in the cliche, broad philosophical sense, what is the meaning of life?

先从简单的开始吧。

Go for the-- Start with the softballs.

对。

Yep.

先问简单的问题。

Easy question first.

詹姆斯·卡斯是那位最初阐述有限游戏和无限游戏概念的哲学家。

So James Carse was the philosopher who originally articulated this concept of finite and infinite games.

当我了解到这个概念时，它真的颠覆了我对世界运作方式的理解，对吧？

And when I learned about it, it really challenged my view of how the world works, right?

因为我觉得我们都在想着赢、做到最好、成为第一，但仔细想想，只有在有限游戏中才能存在这些，那是一种有固定规则、共同目标和已知玩家的游戏，比如足球或棒球。

Because I think we all think about winning and being the best and being number one, but if you think about it, only in a finite game can that exist, a game that has fixed rules, agreed-upon objectives, and known players, like football or baseball.

这种游戏总有开始、中间和结束，如果有赢家，就必然有输家。

There's always a beginning, middle, and end, and if there's a winner, there has to be a loser.

而无限游戏，正如卡尔斯所描述的，就像你说的，有已知和未知的玩家，这意味着任何人都可以加入。

Infinite games, as Carse describes them, as you said, have known and unknown players, which means anyone can join.

它的规则是可以改变的，也就是说你可以按照自己的意愿来玩。

It has changeable rules, which means you can play however you want.

而它的目标是让游戏持续下去，尽可能长久地留在游戏中。

And the objective is to perpetuate the game, to stay in the game as long as possible.

换句话说，在一个没有终点的游戏中，不存在所谓的第一名或胜利。

In other words, there's no such thing as being number one or winning in a game that has no finish line.

我学到的是，当我们试图在一个没有终点的游戏中获胜，试图在一个没有共同目标、共同衡量标准或时间框架的游戏中做到最好时，我们其实是在做一件不可能的事。

And what I learned is that when we try to win in a game that has no finish line, we try and be the best in a game that has no agreed-upon objectives or agreed-upon metrics or time frames.

这会导致一些一致且可预测的结果：信任度下降、合作减少、创新衰退。

There's a few consistent and Predictable outcomes, the decline of trust, the decline of cooperation, the decline of innovation.

我觉得很有意思的是，我们管理大多数组织的方式，其实都带着一种有限游戏的思维。

And I find this fascinating because so many of the ways that we run most organizations is with a finite mindset.

所以，就是把生命、政治或商业这些美好而复杂的事物，硬要压缩成非常狭隘的东西。

So trying to reduce the beautiful, complex thing that is life, or whether politics or business, into something very narrow.

而在这个过程中，也就是这种简化还原的过程中，你会失去一些根本性的东西，而这些正是让整个系统长期运转的关键。

And in that process, the reductionist process, you lose something fundamental that makes the whole thing work in the long term.

回到刚才的话题，我可不会让你轻易过关。

So returning, I'm not going to let you off the hook easy.

生命的意义是什么？

What is the meaning of life?

那么，什么才是值得追求的目标函数呢？

So what is the objective function that is worthwhile to pursue?

嗯，想想我们的墓碑吧，对吧？

Well, if you think about our tombstones, right?

上面写着我们出生的日期和去世的日期。

They have the date we were born and the date we died.

但真正重要的，是我们在这两者之间做了什么。

But really, it's what we do with the gap in between.

有一首诗叫《破折号》。

There's a poem called "The Dash."

那个破折号才是关键。

It's the dash that matters.

从出生到离世，我们在这段时间里所做的事情，赋予了生命意义。

It's what we do between the time we're born and the time we die that gives our life meaning.

如果我们以有限的心态生活，也就是为了积累比别人更多的权力或金钱，为了超越所有人，为了成为第一，为了做到最好，但这些东西我们一样都带不走。

And if we live our lives with a finite mindset, which means to accumulate more power or money than anybody else, to outdo everyone else, to be number one, to be the best, we don't take any of this with us.

我们什么都带不走。

We don't take any of it with us.

我们只是死去。

We just die.

那些被记住的人，我们想要被记住的方式，是我们是什么样的人，对吧？

The people who get remembered, the way we want to be remembered, is what kind of people we were, right?

慈爱的母亲，慈爱的父亲。

Devoted mother, loving father.

我们对别人来说是什么样的人。

What kind of person we were to other people.

杰克·韦尔奇最近去世了，《华盛顿邮报》在写他的讣告标题时写道：“他取悦了华尔街，却让员工感到痛苦。”

Jack Welch just died recently, and The Washington Post, when it wrote the headline for his obit, it wrote, "He pleased Wall Street and distressed employees."

这就是他的遗产。

And that's his legacy.

一个执着于获胜的有限游戏玩家——

A finite player who was obsessed with winning-

对

Yes

……他留下的遗产是少数人的短期收益和多数人的痛苦。

... who leaves behind a legacy of short-term gains for a few and distress for many.

那就是他的遗产。

That's his legacy.

而且我们每个人都有选择自己遗产类型的权利。

And every single one of us gets the choice of the kind of legacy we want to have.

我们是希望因贡献被记住，还是因减损被记住？

Do we want to be remembered for our contributions or our detractions?

以有限思维生活，以有限思维经营职业生涯，追求第一，追求最好，追求最出名。

To live with a finite mindset, to live a career with a finite mindset, to be number one, be the best, be the most famous.

你就会像杰克·韦尔奇那样生活。

You live a life like Jack Welch.

以服务为生活，看到周围的人成长，为社区、为组织做出贡献，让它们比我们找到时更好。

To live a life of service, to see those around us rise, to contribute to our communities, to our organizations, to leave them in better shape than we found them.

那是我们大多数人都希望拥有的遗产。

That's the kind of legacy most of us would like to have.

那么，在日常中，当你思考无限游戏的基本目标、梦想和动机，将你的生活和职业视为无限游戏时，那是什么样的？

So day to day, when you think about what is the fundamental goals, dreams, motivations of an infinite game, of seeing your life, your career as an infinite game, what does that look like?

我想我是在试着聚焦于个人的自我和驱动力。

I guess I'm sort of trying to stick on this personal ego, personal drive.

那种东西——

The thing that-

……那种热情，那种让我们早上想起床的理由——

... the fire, the reason we want to wake up in the morning-

……以及那种让我们兴奋得睡不着觉的理由。

... and the reason we can't go to bed because we're so excited.

那是什么？

What is that?

对我来说，这关乎一个正义的事业。

So for me, it's about having a just cause.

这关乎一个比我更宏大的愿景。

It's about a vision that's bigger than me.

我的工作能够为比我自己更宏大的事物做出贡献。

That my work gets to contribute to something larger than myself.

这就是每天驱动我的动力。

That's what drives me every day.

我每天早上醒来，脑海中都有一个尚未存在的世界的愿景，在那个世界里，绝大多数人每天早晨醒来时都充满灵感，在工作中感到安全，一天结束时回到家感到满足。

I wake up every morning with a vision of a world that does not yet exist, a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe at work, and return home fulfilled at the end of the day.

这不是我们现在生活的世界。

It is not the world we live in.

所以，我们还有工作要做，这正是驱动我的东西。

And so that we still have work to do is the thing that drives me.

我知道我的核心价值观是什么。

I know what my underlying values are.

我醒来是为了激励人们去做那些激励他们自己的事情。

I wake up to inspire people to do the things that inspire them.

这些是我的首选，我的触点，激励我继续工作。

And these are my go-tos, my touch points that inspire me to keep working.

我把职业生涯看作一座冰山。

I think of a career like an iceberg.

如果你对某件事有愿景，你是唯一能看到水面下冰山的人。

If you have a vision for something, you're the only one who can see the iceberg underneath the ocean.

但如果你开始努力，冰山会露出一小部分，现在其他人也能看到你的想象，并说："哦，对。"

But if you start working at it, a little bit shows up, and now a few other people can see what you imagine and be like, "Oh, right.

是的，不，我也想帮忙建造那个。"

Yeah, no, I want to help build that as well."

如果你取得很多成功，你就有很多冰山，人们能看到这个巨大的冰山，他们会说："你成就了很多。"

And if you have a lot of success, then you have a lot of iceberg, and people can see this huge iceberg, and they say, "You've accomplished so much."

但我看到的是所有尚未完成的工作。

But what I see is all the work still yet to be done.

我仍然看到水面下巨大的冰山。

Yet I still see the huge iceberg underneath the ocean.

所以成长，你谈到势头，冰山逐渐显露的过程就是驱动你的东西。

And so the growth, you talk about momentum, so the incremental revealing of the iceberg is what drives you.

嗯，这必然是渐进的。

Well, it necessarily is incremental.

驱动我的是实现那个冰山，或者说让冰山显现出来。

What drives me is the realization, or is realizing the iceberg.

把冰山更多的部分从未知带到已知。

Bringing more of the iceberg from the unknown to the known.

把愿景更多的部分从想象带到现实。

Bringing more of the vision from the imagination to reality.

你有一种根本性的乐观愿景。

And you have this fundamental vision of optimism.

你称自己为乐观主义者。

You call yourself an optimist.

在这个世界上，我有点把自己看作陀思妥耶夫斯基《白痴》里的主角，他也被社会视为傻瓜，因为他很乐观。

In this world, I see myself a little bit as the main character from "The Idiot" by Dostoevsky, who's also kind of seen by society as a fool because he was optimistic.

那么，首先，你能说说这种乐观主义来自哪里吗？也许还可以试着阐述一下你对未来的愿景，在那个未来里，人们受到启发，乐观驱动着我们。

So one, can you maybe articulate where that sense of optimism comes from, and maybe also try to articulate your vision of the future where people are inspired, where optimism drives us.

当你看着社交媒体之类的东西时，很容易忘记这一点，因为在那里，负面和有毒的内容往往能获得更多点赞。

It's easy to forget that when you look at social media and so on, where the word toxicity and negativity can often get more likes.

这种乐观有它独特的美感，我也希望它确实存在。

That optimism has a sort of beauty to it, and I do hope it's out there.

那你能试着把那个愿景说清楚吗？

So can you try to articulate that vision?

对我来说，乐观和做一个乐观主义者，就是在每朵乌云里看到一线阳光。

So, for me, optimism and being an optimist is just seeing the silver lining in every cloud.

即使在悲剧中，它也能把人凝聚在一起。

Even in tragedy, it brings people together.

问题是，我们能看到这一点吗？

And the question is, can we see that?

你能在一切事物中看到美吗？

Can you see the beauty that is in everything?

我不觉得乐观是愚蠢。

I don't think optimism is foolishness.

我不觉得乐观是盲目。

I don't think optimism is blindness.

虽然这可能需要一些天真，相信事情会变好，相信我们会趋向于善，即使在困难或糟糕的时候。

Though it probably involves some naiveté, the belief that things will get better, the belief that we tend towards the good, even in times of struggle or bad.

战争无法持续，但和平可以。

You can't sustain war, but you can sustain peace.

我认为稳定或更可持续的事物。

I think things that are Stable or more sustainable.

乐观的事物比混乱的事物更可持续。

Things that are optimistic are more sustainable than things that are chaotic.

所以你认为人性本善。

So you see people as fundamentally good.

有些人可能不同意你能维持和平，而不能维持战争。

Some people may disagree that you can sustain peace, and you can't sustain war.

我认为战争代价高昂。

I think war is costly.

战争涉及生命和金钱，而和平不涉及这些。

It involves life and money, and peace does not involve those things.

这需要付出努力。

It requires work.

我不是说这不需要付出努力。

I'm not saying it doesn't require work.

但我认为，它不会像战争那样消耗资源。

But it doesn't drain resources, I think, the same way that war does.

那些会说我们永远会有战争的人，比如我刚才提到的斯大林历史学家，会说冲突和对权力的渴望是人性核心的一部分。

The people that would say that we will always have war, and I just talked to the historian of Stalin, would say that conflict and the desire for power and conflict is central to human nature.

我同意。

I concur.

但你的话里也有某种东西，也许是我同样拥有的那种天真的一面——

But something in your words also, perhaps it's the naive aspect that I also share-

……那就是你有一种乐观，认为人本质上是善良的，而且——

... is that you have an optimism that people are fundamentally good, and-

我是个理想主义者。

I'm an idealist.

而且我觉得理想主义是好事。

And I think idealism is good.

我并不是傻瓜，以为我想象中的理想都能实现。

I'm not a fool to believe that the ideals that I imagine can come true.

当然，世界和平永远不会实现。

Of course, there'll never be world peace.

但难道我们不应该为之奋斗到底吗？

But shouldn't we die trying?

我觉得这才是关键。

I think that's the whole point.

这就是愿景的意义。

That's the point of vision.

愿景应该是理想化的，而且从实际角度来看，应该是无法实现的。

Vision should be idealistic, and it should be, for all practical purposes, impossible.

但这并不意味着我们不应该去尝试，正是我们达到的每一个里程碑，让我们离那个理想更近一步，让我们觉得自己的生活和努力有意义，让我们觉得自己在为比自己更伟大的事情做贡献。

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, and it's the milestones that we reach that take us closer to that ideal, that make us feel that our life and our work have meaning, and we're contributing to something bigger than ourselves.

仅仅因为不可能，并不意味着我们就不应该去尝试。

Just because it's impossible doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

就像我说的，我们仍然在推动事情向前发展。

As I said, we're still moving the ball down the field.

我们仍然在取得进展。

We're still making progress.

事情仍然在变好，即使我们永远无法达到那个理想状态。

Things are still getting better, even if we never get to that ideal state.

所以我认为理想主义是件好事。

So I think idealism is a good thing.

在“无限游戏”这个词中，人类生命从生物学角度来看，美好而悲剧的一面就是它会终结。

In the word infinite game, one of the beautiful and tragic aspects of life, human life at least, from the biological perspective, is that it ends.

所以，遗憾的是——

So, sadly it's-

对某些人来说，是的。

To some people, yeah.

有限的。

Finite.

对某些人来说是悲剧，或者说它会结束——

It's tragic to some people, or it ends-

我觉得有些人认为生命在你死的那天就结束了，而有些人认为它会继续下去。

I think some people believe that it ends on the day you die, and some people think it continues on.

而且对于“继续下去”到底是什么样子，有很多不同的看法。

And there's a lot of different ways to think what continues on even looks like.

但让我把话题拉回到个人层面——

But let me drag it back to the personal-

当然。

Sure

……那就是你如何看待自己的死亡？

... which is how do you think about your own mortality?

你害怕死亡吗？

Are you afraid of death?

你怎么看待自己的死亡？

How do you think about your own death?

我肯定还没有完成所有我想贡献的事情。

I definitely haven't accomplished everything I want to contribute to.

我希望在这个世界上有更多时间继续朝着那个愿景努力。

I would like more time on this earth to keep working towards that vision.

你会想到这一切对你来说会结束吗？

Do you think about the fact that it ends for you?

你意识到自己会死吗？

Are you cognizant of your mortality?

我当然意识到这一点。

Of course I'm cognizant of it.

我们不是都这样吗？

Aren't we all?

我不会一直想着它。

I don't dwell on it.

我知道这一点。

I'm aware of it.

我知道我的生命是有限的，我知道我在地球上剩下的时间有限，我想让这段时间过得有价值。

I know that my life is finite, and I know that I have a certain amount of time left on this planet, and I'd like to make that time be valuable.

有些人会觉得，想法能让你获得某种意义上的不朽。

Some people would think that ideas kind of allow you to have a certain kind of immortality.

也许可以让你在这种问题上继续思考下去。

Maybe to linger on this kind of question.

所以首先，我要反驳你刚才说的，每个人都意识到自己会死。

So first to push back on the you said that everyone's cognizant of their mortality.

有个叫欧内斯特·贝克尔的人会不同意，他基本上会说，人类的大部分认知都是我们试图制造一种幻觉，试图对自己隐瞒我们会死的事实，试图认为一切都会永远持续下去。

There's a guy named Ernest Becker who would disagree, that he'd basically say that most of human cognition is created by us trying to create an illusion and trying to hide the fact from ourselves the fact that we're going to die, to try to think that it's all going to go on forever.

但事实是我们知道这不会。

But the fact that we know that it doesn't.

是的，但这种否认的混合。

Yes, but this mix of denial.

我觉得那本书叫《否认死亡》。

I think the book's called "Denial of Death."

我们一直在逃避的就是这种持续的否认。

It's this constant denial that we're running away from.

事实上，有人可能会说，你提出的那些鼓舞人心的、了不起的想法，你的TED演讲已经被几千万人看过，对吧？

In fact, some would argue that the inspiration, the incredible ideas you've put out there, your TED Talk has been seen by millions and millions of people, right?

那只是你在拼命对抗自己生物学上的死亡，而你的创造力正源于你试图创造出能比你活得更久的思想。

It's just you trying to desperately fight the fact that you are biologically mortal, and your creative genius comes from the fact that you're trying to create ideas that live on long past you.

嗯，你这么说真是太好了。

Well, that's very nice of you.

我当然希望我的想法能在我之后继续流传，因为我认为那是检验这些想法对他人生活是否有价值的好方法。

I would like my ideas to live on beyond me because I think that is a good test that those ideas have value in the lives of others.

我觉得那是个很好的检验标准。

I think that's a good test.

在我去世很久之后，别人还在谈论或分享这些想法，这或许是对一个人工作最大的赞美。

That others would continue to talk about or share the ideas long after I'm gone, I think is perhaps the greatest compliment one can get for one's own work.

但我觉得并不是因为意识到自己会死才驱使我这么做的。

But I don't think it's my awareness of my mortality that drives me to do it.

是我想做出贡献的愿望驱使我这么做的。

It's my desire to contribute that drives me to do it.

这是乐观主义者的视角。

It's the optimist vision.

这是你从激励他人中获得的快乐和满足感。

It's the pleasure and the fulfillment you get from inspiring others.

就是这么纯粹。

It's as pure as that.

让我问问，听着，我有点着急。

Let me ask, listen, I'm rushing.

我想让你——

I'm trying to get you to-

你挺好的。

You're good.

我很享受这个过程。

I'm enjoying it

……把你引向那些阴暗的领域。

... get you into these dark areas.

你做得很好。

You're good.

我很享受。

I'm enjoying it.

这里面有没有和自我有关的部分？

Is the ego tied up into it somehow?

你的名字可是非常出名。

So your name is extremely well-known.

如果这件事不挂你的名字，你觉得你会有不同的做法吗？

If your name wasn't attached to it, do you think you would act differently?

多年来，我一直讨厌自己的名字和它绑在一起。

For years, I hated that my name was attached to it.

好多年我都坚持一个规矩，就是不让我的照片出现在网站首页。

I had a rule for years that I wouldn't have my face on the front page of the website.

我还跟出版商吵过架，因为我不想让我的名字在书上印得很大。

I had a fight with the publisher because I didn't want my name big on the book.

我想让名字在书上印得很小，因为我一直跟他们说：“重点不是我，是那些想法。”

I wanted it tiny on the book because I kept telling them, "It's not about me, it's about the ideas."

他们想把我的名字放在书的封面最上面。

They wanted to put my name at the top of my book.

我拒绝了。

I refused.

我的书封面顶部都没有我的名字，因为我不允许。

None of my books have my names on the top because I won't let them.

他们非常想把我的名字放在封面顶部，但想法必须比我更重要。

They would like very much to put my name on the top of the book, but the idea has to be bigger than me.

我并不比那个想法更伟大。

I'm not bigger than the idea.

说得真好。

That's beautifully put.

你觉得自我——

Do you think ego-

但我也意识到，我已经被看作是那个传递信息的人了。

But I also am aware that I've become recognized as the messenger.

尽管我仍然认为信息本身比我更重要，但我明白作为传递者，我有责任。

And even though I still think the message is bigger than me, I recognize that I have a responsibility as the messenger.

而不管我喜不喜欢，这都不重要。

And whether I like it or not is irrelevant.

我接受这份责任。

I accept the responsibility.

我很乐意这么做。

I'm happy to do it

我不知道该怎么说，但现在文化中有很大一部分强调的是那些没人反对的东西，比如健康、睡眠、饮食、放松、冥想——

I'm not sure how to phrase this, but there's a large part of the culture right now that emphasizes all the things that nobody disagrees with, which is health, sleep, diet, relaxation, meditation-

确实如此。

That's true

……假期，真的很重要。

... vacation, are really important.

这就像你没法反驳这一点。

It's like you can't really argue against that.

事实上，人们——

In fact, people-

少睡点。

Less sleep.

少——

Less-

开玩笑的。

Just I'm joking.

对。

Yes.

嗯，问题就在这里。

Well, that's the thing.

我经常说，对工作的热情和热爱，以及“努力”这两个字，尤其是在工程领域，比睡眠更重要，更值得优先考虑。

I often speak to the fact that passion and love for what you're doing, and the two words hard work, especially in the engineering fields, are more important to prioritize than sleep.

尽管睡眠真的很重要，但你的头脑应该专注于努力工作和热情上。

Even though sleep is really important, your mind should be obsessed with the hard work, with the passion and so on.

当然，我因此也收到了一些人的反对意见。

And then I get some pushback, of course, from people.

你怎么看这件事？

What do you make sense of that?

是不是只有我这个疯狂的俄罗斯工程师在拼命鼓吹努力？

Is that just me, the crazy Russian engineer really pushing hard work?

可能吧。

Probably.

你怎么——对。

What do you-- Yeah.

我觉得那是短期策略。

I think that's a short-term strategy.

我觉得如果你为了工作牺牲健康，总有一天会付出代价。

I think if you sacrifice your health for the work, at some point it catches up with you.

到某个时候，就像那样，然后你会生病。

And at some point, it's like going, and you get sick.

如果你拒绝照顾自己，你的身体会替你罢工。

Your body will shut down for you if you refuse to take care of yourself.

你会生病。

You get sick.

事情就是这样。

It's what happens.

有时候疾病会更严重，不只是让你慢下来。

Sometimes more severe illness than something that just slows you down.

所以我觉得，睡眠很重要，有研究表明，比如高管们，如果睡满整晚，在合理的时间停止工作，实际上完成得更多，比那些熬夜工作的人更高效，因为他们休息得好，大脑运转得更好。

So I think getting sleep, there have been studies on this that executives, for example, who get a full night's sleep and stop at a reasonable hour, actually accomplish more, are more productive than people who work and burn the midnight oil because their brains are working better because they're well-rested.

所以，努力工作，没错，但为什么不聪明地工作呢？

So, working hard, yes, but why not work smart?

我觉得让我们的头脑和身体得到休息，会让我们更高效。

I think that giving our minds and our bodies rest makes us more efficient.

我觉得一味地硬撑只是短期策略。

I think just driving is a short-term strategy.

不过要稍微反驳一下，烦人的是，从科学角度来说你百分之百正确，对吧？

So but to push back on that a little bit, the annoying thing is you're 100% right in terms of science, right?

但问题是，正因为你百分之百正确，你内心那个软弱的部分就会利用这个事实来说服你。

But the thing is, it's because you're 100% right, that weak part of your mind uses that fact to convince you.

我的脑子里会冒出各种借口，试图说服我不该做我正在做的事。

My mind comes up with all kinds of excuses to try to convince me that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

合理化。

To rationalize.

合理化。

To rationalize.

当然。

Sure.

所以我有种感觉，我觉得你关于高管和领导者的说法完全正确。

And so I have a sense, I think what you said about executives and leaders is absolutely right.

但还有早期阶段，那些疯狂和充满激情的早期阶段。

But there's the early days, the early days of madness and passion.

确实。

For sure.

然后我觉得强调睡眠——

Then I feel like emphasizing sleep-

作为——

As-

……考虑睡眠是给自己一个逃避现实的方式，尤其是那些早期阶段可能很痛苦。

... thinking about sleep is giving yourself a way out from the fact that those early days especially, can be suffering

那不可持续。

It's not sustainable.

这不可持续。

It's not sustainable.

当然，如果你在开始时投入了所有精力来启动它，那么到了某个时候，你不得不放慢速度，否则你的身体会替你放慢。

Sure, if you're investing all that energy in something at the beginning to get it up and running, then at some point, you're going to have to slow down, or your body will slow you down for you.

你可以选择，或者你的身体替你选择。

You can choose or your body can choose.

好，所以你不认为——从我的角度看，感觉人们变得有点软弱了，但你说不是。

Okay, so you don't think-- From my perspective, it feels like people have gotten a little bit soft, but you're saying no.

不，我认为有证据表明，工作更努力、更晚已经退居次要位置。

No, I think that there seems evidence that working harder and later have taken a backseat.

我认为我们必须小心避免一概而论，但我觉得如果你走进职场，会有人抱怨现在比以往更多的人看表说，"哎呀，五点了。"

I think we have to be careful with broad generalizations, but I think if you go into the workplace, there are people who would complain that more people now than before look at their watches and say, "Oops, it's 5:00.

"再见。"

Goodbye."

那么，这是人的问题吗？

Now, is that a problem with the people?

你是说，是那些给自己找借口、不努力的人的问题，还是组织没有给他们值得相信、值得热情投入的东西？

You're saying it's the people giving themselves excuses and people who don't work hard, or is it the organizations aren't giving them something to believe in, something to be passionate about?

热情是没法人为制造的。

We can't manufacture passion.

你不能直接告诉别人“要有热情”。

You can't just tell someone, "Be passionate."

事情不是这样运作的。

That's not how it works.

热情是结果，不是前提。

Passion's an output, not an input.

如果我坚信某件事，并且愿意投入所有精力去做，那我们就称之为热情。

If I believe in something and I want to contribute all that energy to do it, we call that passion.

为自己热爱的事情努力，那叫热情。

Working hard for something we love is passion.

为自己不在乎的事情努力，那叫压力。

Working hard for something we don't care about is called stress.

但不管怎样，我们都在努力干活。

But we're working hard either way.

所以我觉得组织有责任，领导也有责任。如果他们不能提供一种使命感，不能让我们觉得在做一件有意义的事，不能告诉我们工作不只是为了赚钱，那么是的，我就五点下班，因为我真的不在乎帮你赚钱。

So I think the organizations bear some accountability, and our leaders bear some accountability, which is if they're not offering a sense of purpose, if they're not offering us a sense of cause, if they're not telling us that our work is worth more than simply the money it makes, then yeah, I'm going to come at 5:00 because I don't really care about making you money.

记住，我们现在生活的世界里，有很多人，或者说少数人，是靠别人的辛勤劳动致富的。

Remember, we live in a world right now where a lot of people, rather a few people, are getting rich on the hard work of others.

所以当人们抬头看，说：“嗯，我为什么要那样做？”

And so I think when people look up and say, "Well, why would I do that?

如果你不照顾我，年底还会因为没达到你那些随意的预测就把我裁掉，那我为什么还要为你努力工作和忠诚呢？”

If you're not going to look after me and then you're going to lay me off at the end of the year because you missed your arbitrary projections, you're going to lay me off because you missed your arbitrary projections, then why would I offer my hard work and loyalty to you?"

所以我认为我们不能立刻责怪人们变得懒散。

So I don't think we can immediately blame people for going soft.

我认为我们可以责怪领导，因为他们无法或未能给员工提供比制造产品或赚钱更宏大的目标。

I think we can blame leaders for their inability or failure to offer their people something bigger than making a product or making money.

那太棒了。

So that's brilliant.

在《从“为什么”开始》和《领导者最后吃饭》这两本书里，你基本上讲的是要成为一个好领导需要具备什么，所以部分责任应该归咎于领导者。

In "Start With Why," "Leaders Eat Last," your books, you basically talk about what it takes to be a good leader, and so some of the blame should go on the leader.

但其中有多少在于找到你的激情，有多少在于个人——

But how much of it is on finding your passion, how much is it on the individual-

……并且允许自己去追求那份激情，推动自己达到极限，真正沿着通往激情的道路采取具体步骤？

... and allowing yourself to pursue that passion, pushing yourself to your limits to really take concrete steps along your path towards that passion?

对，这是相互的责任。

Yeah, there's mutual responsibility.

这是相互的责任。

There's mutual accountability.

作为个人，我们有责任找到那些能激励我们的组织和领导者，而组织也有责任维持那份热情，给那些相信他们所相信的人一个做出贡献的机会。

We're responsible as individuals to find the organizations and find the leaders that inspire us, and organizations are responsible for maintaining that flame and giving people who believe what they believed a chance to contribute.

所以想再深入一下，你碰巧看过电影《爆裂鼓手》吗？

So sort of to linger on it, have you by chance seen the movie "Whiplash?"

看过。

Yes.

我又在美化苦难了。

Again, maybe I'm romanticizing suffering.

又来了——

Again-

你骨子里是个俄罗斯人。

It's the Russian in you.

确实是俄罗斯人。

It's the Russian.

俄罗斯人就爱受罪。

The Russians love suffering.

但没看过的人可能不知道，这部电影叫《爆裂鼓手》，里面的鼓手老师把学生逼到极限，就为了激发他最好的表现，但这种方式有毒。

But people who haven't seen it, it's the movie Whiplash, has a drum instructor that pushes the drum musician to his limits to bring out the best in him, and there's a toxic nature to it.

里面有苦难。

There's suffering in it.

你跟很多优秀的领导者和很棒的人合作过。

You've worked with a lot of great leaders, a lot of great individuals.

那种有毒的关系，真的像电影里看起来那么有害吗，还是说那其实是根本性的东西？

Is that toxic relationship as toxic as it appears in the movie, or is that fundamental?

我见过那种关系，尤其是在过去，和奥运选手之间——

I've seen that relationship, especially in the past, with Olympic athletes with-

……尤其是在体育领域——

... especially in athletics-

……那些极致的表演者似乎能创造奇迹。

... extreme performers seem to do wonders.

对我来说，那确实有奇效。

It does wonders for me.

我现在最好的关系里，我肯定不能代表所有人，但有些最好的师徒关系，从外人的角度看，确实是有毒的。

Some of my best relationships now, I'm not representative of everyone, certainly, but some of my best relationships for mentee and mentor have been toxic from an external perspective.

你怎么看那部电影？

What do you make of that movie?

你怎么看待那种关系？

What do you make of that kind of relationship?

那部电影不是我的最爱。

That is not my favorite movie.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

所以你不认为那种关系是伟大领导者的好例子？

So you don't think that kind of relationship is a great example of a great leader?

我觉得那是一种短期策略。

I think it's a short-term strategy.

短期。

Short-term.

听着，对人严格和有毒是两回事。

Look, being hard on someone is not the same as toxicity.

如果你去海军陆战队，教官会对他们的队员非常严格。

If you go to the Marine Corps, a drill instructor will be very hard on their Marines.

但即使在基础训练的最后一天，他们也会摘下帽子，变回普通人。

But still, even on the last day of boot camp, they'll take their hat off, and they'll become a human.