#85 – 罗杰·彭罗斯：意识物理学与无限宇宙

而且它必须是某种——你看，它还必须是对于我们远古祖先有价值的东西。

And it's got to be some You see, it's also got to be something which was of value to our remote ancestors.

对。

Right.

因为我有时候——我画过一幅漫画，展示所有这些——前景中你会看到一位数学家正在证明某个数学定理。

Because I sometimes I There's a cartoon which I drew sometimes showing you how all these In the foreground, you see this mathematician just doing some mathematical theorem.

那个定理里有点小玩笑，不过我们就不深究了。

There's a little bit of a joke in that theorem, but let's not go into that.

他正试图证明某个定理，而一只剑齿虎正躲在灌木丛里准备吃掉他，你看。

He's trying to prove some theorem, and he's about to be eaten by a saber toothed tiger who's hiding in the the the undergrowth, you see.

而在远处，看到他的表亲们在种植作物、建造住所、驯养动物。

And in the distance, see his his cousins building, growing crops, building shelters, domesticating animals.

在稍近的前景中，你会看到他们建了一个猛犸象陷阱，这头可怜的猛犸象正掉进坑里，周围的人都准备抓住它，你看。

And in this slight foreground, you see they've built a mammoth trap, and this poor old mammoth is falling into a pit, you see, and all these people around him are about to grab him, you see.

而且——嗯，你看，那些人才是真正具备理解力特质的——这不只是数学家在做数学研究那么简单。

And and well, you see, those are the ones who the quality of understanding which goes with all the it's not just the mathematician doing his mathematics.

这种理解力是另一种特质，它给我们带来了巨大的优势，不仅限于人类。

This understanding quality is something else, which has been of tremendous advantage to us, not just to us.

看，别以为意识只存在于人类中。

See, don't think consciousness is limited to humans.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个有趣的问题。

That's the interesting question.

如果它确实与进化过程相关，那么是在哪个节点...是的。

At which point, if it is indeed connected to the evolutionary process Yeah.

我们是在哪个节点获得这种能力的

At which point did we pick up this

这是个非常困难的问题。

A very hard question.

当然...我...我认为不是灵长类动物。

It's certainly I I don't think it's primates.

你看那些非洲野犬的照片，它们能互相配合制定捕捉羚羊的计划。

Know, you see these pictures of African hunting dogs and how they they can plan amongst themselves how to catch the antelopes.

有些大卫·爱登堡的纪录片，这可能是其中一部。

Some of these David Attenborough films, think this probably was one of them.

你能看到野犬分成两组，沿着两条不同路线行进。

And you can see the the hunting dogs and they divide themselves into two groups and they go in two routes, two different routes.

其中一组潜伏在河边等待。

One of them goes and they sort of hide next to the river.

另一组则绕过去开始吠叫——

And the other group goes around and they start yelping at these.

它们不是普通犬吠，总之用野犬特有的叫声驱赶羚羊，把它们往河边围赶。

They don't bark, I guess whatever noise hunting dogs do, the antelopes and they sort of round them up and they chase them in the direction of the river.

而埋伏的那组就等着它们自投罗网——因为羚羊到河边时速度会减慢。

And they're the other ones just waiting for them just to get because this when they get to the river, slows them down.

于是它们就扑了上去。

And so they pounce on them.

显然它们不知怎么地事先计划好了这一切。

So they've obviously planned this all out somehow.

我完全不知道它们是怎么做到的。

I have no idea how.

就我所见，这其中确实存在某种有意识的规划成分。

And there is some element of conscious planning as far as I can see.

我不认为这只是某种...如今很多人工智能都是采用所谓的自下而上系统，对吧？

I don't think it's just some kind of So much of AI these days is done, what do they call, bottom up systems, is it?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

就像神经网络，你给它们提供海量数据训练，它们就能通过大量样本识别出连人类都可能无意识察觉的细微特征模式，从而做出选择。

Where you have neural networks and they they You give them a zillion different things to look at and and then they sort of can choose one thing over another just because it's seen so many examples and picks up on little signals which one may not even be conscious of.

但这并不像是真正的理解。

And that doesn't feel like understanding.

这当中根本不存在真正的理解。

And there's no understanding in that whatsoever.

呃，你有点人类中心主义了。

So Well, you're being a little bit human centric.

呃，我觉得我会预期

So Well, I I think I would expect

是啊。

Yeah.

我该不会是在对牛弹琴吧？

I'm not with the dogs, am I?

因为

Because

不是。

No.

你没有。

You're not.

抱歉。

Sorry.

对不起。

Sorry.

不是以人类为中心，而是我口误了。

Not human centric, but, I misspoke.

是以生物学为中心。

Biola biology centric.

有没有可能意识只是看起来略有不同？

Is it possible that consciousness would just look slightly different?

呃，我并不是说它是生物性的，因为我们还不确定。

Well, I'm not saying it's biological because we don't know.

对。

Right.

我认为大象的例子也是个很好的例证。

I think other examples of the elephants is a wonderful example too.

我记得这个例子应该是在《爱登堡1》里出现的。

Where the this was I think this was at Attenborough 1.

象群需要长途跋涉，穿越很远的距离。

Where the the elephants have to go from long the troop of them have to go long distances.

而象群的领袖是一头雌象。

And the leader of a troop is a female.

显然所有象群都是这样。

They all are apparently.

这头雌象需要从国家的一端迁徙到另一端。

And this female, that she had to go all the way from one part of the country to another.

在某个时刻，她突然改变了路线。

And at a certain point, she made a detour.

整个象群都跟着她绕了远路。

And they went off in this big detour.

后来发现那里正是她姐妹去世的地方。

All the troop came with her and this is where her sister had died.

地上散落着她的骨头，它们走过去捡起骨头，互相传递并抚摸骨头。

And there were her bones lying around and they go and pick up the bones and they hand it around and they caress the bones.

然后它们把骨头放回原处，之后还会再回来。

And then they put them back and they will go back again.

它们到底在干什么？

What in the hell are they doing?

这太有趣了。

That's so interesting.

我是说，这里肯定有什么特殊含义。

I mean, there's something going on.

这与自然选择没有明显关联。

There's no clear connection with natural selection.

那里正在发生某种深层情感，这与它们的意识体验有关。

There's just some deep feeling going on there, which has to do with their conscious experience.

我认为总体而言这是具有进化优势的。

And I think it's something which overall is advantageous.

我们的自然选择，但并非直接与自然选择相关。

Our natural selection, but not directly to do with natural selection.

我喜欢这个观点。

I like that.

那里正在发生一些持续进行的事情。

There's something going out and go on going on there.

是啊。

Yeah.

就像我告诉过你的，我是俄罗斯人，所以我倾向于把所有这类事情都浪漫化。

Like I told you, I'm Russian, so I tend to romanticize all things of this nature.

这不仅仅是冰冷生硬的计算。

That that it's not merely cold, hard computation.

或许我可以稍微回答一下你的问题。

Perhaps I could just slightly answer your question.

你刚才问我那是什么？

You were asking me what is it?

有种抽身事外、审视自己思维过程的感觉。

There's something about sort of standing back and thinking about your own thought processes.

我是说哥德尔理论中就有类似概念，因为你不是在遵循规则，而是退后一步思考规则本身。

I mean there is something like that in the Godel thing cause it's it's you're not following the rules, you're standing back and thinking about the rules.

所以可以说，当你正在做某事时突然自问：我到底在干什么？

And so there is something that you might say, you think about you're doing something and you think, what the hell am I doing?

然后你会退后一步，思考是什么导致你产生这样的思维方式。

And you sort of stand back and think about what it is that's making you think such a way.

只需从你一直参与的游戏规则中抽离出来。

Just take a step back outside this the game you've been playing.

对。

Yeah.

你退后一步，意识到自己已经不再只是参与游戏了。

You back up and you think about you're you're just not playing the game anymore.

你开始思考自己到底为什么要玩这个游戏。

You're thinking about what the hell you're doing in playing this game.

这虽然不是一个非常精确的描述，但不知为何感觉非常真实，这某种程度上就是理解。

And that's that's somehow it's it's not a very precise description, but somehow feels very true that that's somehow understanding.

是的。

Yeah.

这种反思。

This kind of reflection.

反思。

The reflection.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Yeah.

有点难以确切指出，但确实存在某些东西，我认为或许能在某个时刻被发掘出来，看看这到底是怎么回事。

There is some It's a bit hard to put your finger on, but there is something there which I think maybe could be unearthed at some point and see this is really what's going on.

为什么有意识的生物拥有这种优势？

Why conscious beings have this advantage?

是什么赋予了它们优势，我认为这可以追溯到很久以前。

What it is that gives them an advantage and I think it goes way back.

我不认为我们是在讨论猎犬和大象。

I don't think we're talking about the hunting dogs and the elephants.

很明显章鱼也具有同样的特质。

That's pretty clear that octopuses have the same sort of quality.

我们称之为意识。

We call it consciousness.

是的。

Yeah.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

我已经见过足够多的例子，它们的行为方式和进化路线完全不同。

I've seen enough examples of the way that they behave and the evolution route is completely different.

这是源于某个共同祖先，还是各自独立演化而来的？

Does it go way back to some common ancestor or did it come separately?

我希望事情很简单。

My hope is it's something simple.

但棘手的问题是，是否存在硬件前提条件。

But the hard question, if there's a hardware prerequisite Yeah.

我们必须在计算机中开发某种硬件机制。

That we have to develop some kind of, hardware mechanisms in our computers.

就像你稍后会提到的，我们基本上得抛弃现有的计算机概念。

Like, basically, as you suggest, we'll get to in a second, we kinda have to throw away the computer as we know it today.

是的。

Yeah.

我们今天熟知的试图创造它的确定性机器。

The deterministic machines we know today that try to create it.

当然，我的希望并非如此。

I mean, my my hope, of course, is not.

但是

But

好吧，我确实应该回到那个某种意义上我还没讲完的故事。

Well, I should go really back to the story which in a sense I haven't finished.

是的。

Yes.

因为你看，我研究生时期参加了这三门课程。

Because I went to these three courses, you see, when I was a graduate student.

于是我开始思考，其实我算是个——你可以称之为唯物主义者，认为不存在某种神秘或说不清道不明的东西从不知何处冒出来。

And so I started to think, well, I'm really I'm a pretty what you might call a materialist in the sense of thinking that there's no kind of mystical or something or other which comes in from who knows where.

你现在还这么认为吗？

You still that?

你这一生都保持着唯物主义观点吗？

Are you still through all your life been a materialist?

我不喜欢'唯物主义'这个词，因为它暗示我们了解物质的本质。

I don't like the word materialist because it suggests we know what material is.

这是个糟糕的用词，因为

And that's that is is a bad word because

但不存在什么神秘主义。

But there's no mystical.

这不是某种科学无法处理的神秘事物。

It's not some mystical something which is not not treatable by science.

这句话说得太妙了，请允许我稍作停顿品味一下。

That's so beautifully put, just to pause on that for a second.

你是个唯物主义者，但你也承认我们其实并不真正了解物质的本质。

You're a materialist, but you acknowledge that we don't really know what the material is.

正是如此。

That's right.

我想我更愿意称自己为科学家。

I mean, I like to call myself a scientist, suppose.

但这意味着...是的。

But it means that Yes.

你看，问题在这里继续延伸。

Well, you see, the question goes on here.

于是我开始思考，如果意识或理解不是一种计算过程，那它可能是什么？

So I began thinking, okay, if consciousness or understanding is something which is not a computational process, what can it be?

我从本科阶段的学习中已经了解到足够的知识。

And I knew enough from my undergraduate work.

我了解牛顿力学，也知道基本上可以将其编程输入计算机。

I knew about Newtonian mechanics and I knew how basically you could put it on a computer.

这里存在一个根本性问题：这重要与否？

There is a fundamental issue which is this important or not?

这种计算依赖于离散的事物。

That computation depends upon discrete things.

所以你使用的是离散元素。

So you're using discrete elements.

而物理定律则依赖于连续性。

Whereas the physical laws depend on the continuum.

这是否与此有关呢？

Now is this something to do with it?

这是否意味着我们在物理学中使用连续统这一事实？

Is it the fact that we use the continuum in our physics?

如果我们对物理系统建模，就会使用像普通计算机这样的离散系统。

And if we model our physical system, we use discrete systems like ordinary computers.

我最终认为这可能不是关键所在。

I came to the view that that's probably not it.

也许有一天我得收回这个观点，但当时我认为不，你可以足够接近真相。

I might have to retract on that someday, but the view was no, you you can get close enough.

必须承认这并不完全明确，但你可以足够接近。

It's not altogether clear, have to say, but you can get close enough.

后来我参加了邦迪的广义相对论课程，当时我想，这个理论也可以被计算机模拟。

And, you know, went to this course on by Bondi on general relativity and I thought, well, you can put that on a computer.

当然那是在很久以前——我算是伴随着这个领域成长起来的，看着人们如何不断改进计算，他们能计算黑洞，还能计算黑洞如何相互作用、相互环绕，以及会产生何种引力波。

Course that was a long time before people I've sort of grown up with this, how people have done better and better calculations and they could work out black about black holes, and they can then work out how black holes can interact with each other, spiral around, and what kind of gravitational waves can add.

这是非常令人印象深刻的计算工作成果。

And it's a very impressive piece of computational work.

你实际上可以计算出这些信号的形状。

How you can actually work out the shapes of those signals.

现在我们有了LIGO观测到这些信号，它们证实了黑洞相互螺旋融合的现象。

And now we have LIGO seeing these signals, and they say, yeah, there's those black holes spiral into each other.

这充分验证了计算能力在描述爱因斯坦广义相对论方面的强大作用。

This is just a vindication of the power of computation in describing Einstein's general relativity.

所以在这种情况下，我们通过计算可以无限接近对物理学的理解。

So in that case, we can get close, but we the so with computation, we can get close to our understanding of the physics.

你可以非常非常接近真相。

You can get very very close.

那么，这样的接近程度足够了吗？你明白吗？

Now, is that close enough, you see?

后来我去听了狄拉克的课程。

And then I went to this course by Dirac.

要知道，我认为那是他讲的第一堂课，当时他正在讨论叠加原理。

Now, you see, I think it was the very first lecture that he gave and he was talking about the superposition principle.

他说如果你有一个粒子，通常认为粒子可以在这里或那里，但在量子力学中它可以同时在这里和那里。

And he said if you have a particle, you usually think a particle can be over here or over there, but in quantum mechanics it can be over here and over there at the same time.

这些状态在某种意义上涉及该粒子不同位置的叠加。

And you have these states which involve a superposition in some sense of it different locations for that particle.

然后他拿出了他的粉笔。

And then he got out his piece of chalk.

有人说他把粉笔掰成两半，以此说明粉笔如何可能同时存在于这里和那里。

Some people say he broke it in two as a kind of illustration of how the piece of chalk might be over here and over there at the same time.

他正讲着这个，而我的思绪飘走了。

And he was talking about this and I My mind wandered.

我不记得他说了什么。

I don't remember what he said.

我只记得他已经转到下一个话题，提到了一些关于能量的内容，我完全不明白这与什么有关。

All I can remember, he's just moved on to the next topic and something about energy he'd mentioned which I had no idea what had to do with anything.

因此我被这个困扰，从那以后一直为此烦恼。

And so I'd been struck with this and worried about it ever since.

我没听到他的解释或许反而是件好事，那大概只是为了安抚我，让我别再为此担忧。

It's probably just as well I didn't hear his explanation because it was probably one of these things to calm me down and not worry about it anymore.

而在我这里，我却一直为此忧心忡忡。

Whereas in my case, I've worried it about ever since.

所以我想也许这就是关键所在。

So I thought maybe that's the catch.

量子力学中存在某种机制，使这些叠加态坍缩为其中一种状态——但这本不该是量子力学的一部分。

There is something in quantum mechanics where these superpositions become one or the other and that's not part of quantum mechanics.

这个理论存在缺失。

There's something missing in the theory.

这个理论并不完备。

The theory is incomplete.

它不仅仅是有所缺失。

It's not just incomplete.

从某种意义上说，它并不完全正确。

It's in a certain sense not quite right.

因为如果你遵循量子力学的基本方程——薛定谔方程，你也可以把它输入计算机。

Because if you follow the equation, the basic equation of quantum mechanics, that's the Schrodinger equation, You could put that on a computer too.

关于需要输入多少参数等问题存在诸多困难。

There are lots of difficulties about how many parameters you have to put in and so on.

这可能非常棘手，但尽管如此，它仍是一个计算过程。

That can be very tricky, but nevertheless, it is a computational process.

除了之前关于连续统的问题外，但尚不清楚这是否会产生任何影响。

Modulo this question about the continuum as before, but it's not clear that makes any difference.

所以我们的量子力学理论可能缺失了与通用图灵机关于意识认知相同的元素。

So our theories of quantum mechanics may be missing the same element that the universal Turing machine is missing about consciousness.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我持有的观点是：你需要一个理论来解释所谓的态坍缩或波函数坍缩，否则量子力学就无法与我们看到的世界建立联系。

This is the view I held is that you need a theory and that that what people call the reduction of the state or the collapse of the wave function, which you have to have otherwise quantum mechanics doesn't relate to the world we see.

要让量子力学与我们所见的世界相关联，你必须打破薛定谔方程。

To make it relate to the world we see, you've got to break the quant you've got to break the Schrodinger equation.

薛定谔本人对这个想法感到极为震惊。

Schrodinger himself was absolutely appalled by this idea.

他自己的方程。

His own his own equation.

这就是为什么他提出著名的薛定谔猫思想实验。

I mean, that's why he introduced this famous Schrodinger's cat as a thought experiment.

他实际上是在说，看，这就是我的方程将你引向的境地。

He's really saying, look, this is where my equation leads you into it.

这里有问题。

There's something wrong.

我们尚未理解某些根本性的东西。

Something we haven't understood, which is basically fundamental.

因此我试图将所有这些问题整合起来，认为非计算性必然在此处介入。

And so I was trying to put all these things together and said, it's got to be the noncomputability comes in there.

我也记不太清具体是什么时候想到的，但引力确实与量子力学有关。

And I also can't quite remember right when I thought this, but it's gravity is involved in quantum mechanics.

正是这两者的结合，在那个节点上你有充分的理由相信。

It's the combination of those two and it's that point when the You have good good reasons to believe.

这个想法来得要晚得多。

This this came much later.

但我有充分理由相信广义相对论原理与量子力学原理——尤其是可以追溯到伽利略的等效原理——之间存在关联。

But I have good reason to believe that the principles of general relativity and those of quantum mechanics, most particularly, it's the basic principle of equivalence which goes back to Galileo.

如果你自由落体，就能消除引力场的影响。

If you fall freely, you eliminate the gravitational field.

想象伽利略从比萨斜塔上同时扔下大石头和小石头——不管他是否真的做过这个实验。

So you imagine Galileo drawing dropping his big rock and his little rock from the leaning tower whether he actually ever did that or not.

这其实无关紧要。

It's pretty irrelevant.

当石头坠落时，有只小昆虫停在其中一块石头上观察另一块石头。

And as the rocks fall to the ground, you have a little insect sitting on one of them looking at the other one.

它似乎在想，哦，这里没有重力。

And it seems to think, oh, there's no gravity here.

当然，当它撞到地面时，就会意识到情况有所不同。

Of course, it hits the ground and then it realizes something different is going on.

但当它处于自由落体状态时，重力就被消除了。

But when it's in free fall, the gravity has been eliminated.

伽利略对此理解得非常透彻。

Galileo understood that very beautifully.

他举了烟花这个绝妙的例子。

He gives his wonderful examples of fireworks.

你看到烟花绽放时，会形成一个火花四射的球体。

And you see the fireworks and explode and you see this sphere of sparkling fireworks.

这个球体在下落过程中始终保持球形，仿佛不存在重力。

It remains a sphere as it falls down as though there were no gravity.

所以他理解了这个原理，但无法据此建立理论。

So he understood that principle, but he couldn't make a theory out of it.

爱因斯坦随后出现，运用了完全相同的原理，这正是爱因斯坦广义相对论的基础。

Einstein came along, used exactly the same principle, and that's the basis of Einstein's general theory of relativity.

现在，这里存在一个矛盾。

Now, there is a conflict.

这是我在很久很久之后才做的事情，所以不是那个年代的事。

This is something I did much much later, so this wasn't those days.

很久很久之后。

Much much later.

你可以看到叠加原理（狄拉克所讨论的内容）与广义协变性原理（或者说等效原理，即引力场等效于加速度）之间存在根本性冲突。

You can see there is a basic conflict between the principle of superposition, the thing that Dirac was talking about, and the principle of general covariance well, principle of equivalence, gravitational fields equivalent to an acceleration.

你能暂停一下吗？

Can you pause for a second?

等效原理是什么？

What is the principle of equivalence?

就是伽利略提出的这个原理——至少在局部范围内我们可以消除重力影响。

It's this Galileo principle that we can eliminate, at least locally.

你必须在一个小范围内，因为你看如果世界各地都有人扔石头，你无法一次性全部消除。

You have to be in a a small neighborhood because you see if you have people dropping rocks all around the world somewhere, you can't get rid of it all at once.

但在局部范围内，你可以通过自由落体运动来消除引力场。

But in the local neighborhood, you can eliminate the gravitational field by falling freely with it.

我们现在从宇航员身上就能看到这一点，他们并不在意——你知道地球就在那里。

And we now see this with astronauts and they don't You know, the earth is right there.

你可以看到巨大的地球就在他们下方。

You can see the great globe of the earth right beneath them.

但他们对此毫不在意。

But they don't care about it.

就他们而言，那里根本不存在重力。

They As far as they're concerned, there's no gravity.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们在引力场中自由下落，这样就消除了引力场。

They free fall freely within the gravitational field, and that gets rid of the gravitational field.

这就是等效原理。

And that's the principle of equivalence.

那么矛盾点在哪里？

So what's the what's the contradiction?

叠加态与等效原理之间的张力是什么？

What's the tension with superposition

和等效原理的关系？

and the equivalence?

嗯，

Well,

不过我们先稍微回溯一下，看看能否理清整个脉络。

but so we just to backtrack for a second just to see if we can weave a thread through it all.

是的。

Yes.

所以我们开始认为意识可能需要一些相同的——不是神秘主义——而是某种类似的奇妙特性。

So you we started to to think about consciousness as potentially needing some of the same, not mystical, but some of the same magic.

你看，这是个复杂的故事。

You see, it is a complicated story.

所以，你知道，人们会想，哦，我是不是跑题了什么的。

So so, you know, people think, oh, I'm drifting away from the point or something.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我认为这是个复杂的故事。

But I think it is a complicated story.

简单来说，我想表达的意思是，这并不容易说清楚。

So what I'm trying to say, I mean, I try to put it in a nutshell, it's not so easy.

我想说的是，无论意识是什么，它都不是一种计算。

I'm trying to say that whatever consciousness is, it's not a computation.

是的。

Yes.

或者说这不是一个可以用计算描述的物理过程。

Or it's not a physical process which can be described by computation.

但尽管如此，你提出的一个有趣模型正是协调客观还原理论。

But it nevertheless could be so one one of the interesting models that you've proposed is the orchestrated objective reduction.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯，你看这就要说到那里了。

Well, you see that's going from there, you see.

所以我说我毫无头绪。

So I say I have no idea.

于是我在科学生涯中写了这本书。

So I wrote this book through my scientific career.

我想着，等退休后就有足够时间写本通俗读物，用来阐述我的观点和困惑。

I thought, you know, when I'm retired, I'll have enough time to write a sort of a popular ish book which I will explain my ideas and puzzles.

包括我钟爱的物理与数学之美，以及关于可计算性与意识之类的谜题。

What I like, beautiful things about physics and mathematics, and this puzzle about computability and consciousness and so on.

在写这本书的过程中——我原计划退休后再做这件事。

And in the process of writing this book Well, I thought I'd do it when I was retired.

我其实并没有等到那时候。

I didn't actually.

我没有等那么久，因为当时爱德华·弗雷德金和马文·明斯基有一场电台辩论。

I didn't wait that long because there was a radio discussion between Edward Fredkin and Marvin Minsky.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们在讨论计算机能做什么，当时正走进一个大房间。

They were talking about what computers could do and they were entering entering a big room.

他们想象着走进这个大房间。

They imagined entering this big room.

在房间的另一头，两台计算机正在互相交谈。

At the other end of the room, two computers were talking to each other.

当你走近这些计算机时，它们彼此间交流的观点、概念和事物，将超过整个人类历史上产生过的总和。

And as you walk up to the computers, they will have communicated to each other more ideas, concepts, things than the entire human race had ever committed done.

是的。

Yes.

所以我想，我明白你的出发点，但我就是不相信你。

So I thought, I know where you're coming from, but I just don't believe you.

还缺少些什么。

There's something missing.

就是这样。所以我想，好吧，我应该写我的书。

That's It's not So I thought, well, I should write my book.

于是我就这么做了。

And so I did.

那大约和史蒂芬·霍金写《时间简史》是同一时期，

It was roughly the same time Stephen Hawking was writing his Brief History of Time and

在八十年代的某个时候。

In the eighties at some point.

你说的那本书是《皇帝的新脑》

The book you're talking about is The Emperor's

新脑。

New Mind.

皇帝新脑。

Emperor's New Mind.

没错。

That's right.

这两本书都非常了不起，《时间简史》和《皇帝新脑》。

And both are incredible books, The Brief History of Time and Emperor's New Mind.

是的。

Yes.

这相当有趣，因为他告诉我他请到了卡尔·萨根为书作序。

It was quite interesting because he got He told me he'd got, Carl Sagan, I think, to write a forward.

这确实是个好选择。

It's a good get.

为这本书作序，你看。

To the book, you see.

所以我想，天啊，我该怎么办？

So I thought, gosh, what am I gonna do?

我一个人肯定搞不定，必须得找人帮忙。

I'm have I'm not gonna get anywhere unless I get somebody.

于是我说，对了，我认识马丁·加德纳，不知道他愿不愿意帮忙。

So I said, oh, I know Martin Gardner, so I wonder if he'd do it.

结果他答应了，还写了一篇非常棒的序言。

So he did, and he did a very nice forward.

这确实是本了不起的书，你提到的那些人——比如专家系统领域的埃德·弗兰肯，当然还有AI界无人不晓的明斯基——他们都代表着人工智能领域。完全正确。

So that's that's an incredible book, and some of the the same people you mentioned, Ed Franken, which, I guess of, Expert Systems fame and Minsky, of course, people know in the AI world, but they represent the artificial intelligence world Absolutely.

没错。

That's right.

他们确实对人工智能的智慧寄予厚望

That do hope and dream that AI's intelligence is

正是如此。

That's right.

嗯，你看，这就是我当时的想法。

Well, you see, was my thinking.

嗯，你知道，我理解他们的出发点，而我来自

Well, you know, I see where they're coming from and I from

是啊。

that Yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

但那不是我的观点。

But that's not my perspective.

所以我觉得我必须说出来。

So I thought I had to say it.

在我写书的时候，我就在想，其实我对神经生理学一无所知。

And as I was writing my book, I thought, well, I don't really know anything about neurophysiology.

我写这本书到底在干什么？

What am I doing writing this book?

于是我开始研读神经生理学资料，试图弄清楚神经信号如何可能保持量子相干性。

So I started reading up about neurophysiology and I read up and I think I'm trying to find out how it is that nerve signals could possibly preserve quantum coherence.

而我读到的只是沿着神经传递的电信号在大脑中产生效应

And all I read is that the electrical signals which go along the nerves create effects through the brain.

你根本无法将其隔离

There's no chance you can isolate it.

所以这毫无希望

So this is hopeless.

于是我在书的结尾处或多或少选择了放弃

So I come to the end of the book and I more or less give up.

我只是想到一个自己都不太相信的可能性——或许有迂回解决的办法，但并没有

I just think of something which I didn't believe in as maybe this is a way around it, but no.

然后你说，想着也许这本书至少能激励年轻人从事科研之类的事

And then you say, thought, maybe this book will at least stimulate young people to do science or something.

结果我却收到了一大堆退休老人的来信

And I got all these letters from old retired people instead.

这些人是唯一有时间读我书的人

These are the only people who could have time to read my book.

我是说除了斯图尔特·哈默罗夫。

I mean Except for Stuart Hameroff.

除了斯图尔特·哈默罗夫。

Except for Stuart Hameroff.

斯图尔特·哈默罗夫给我写信说，我觉得你遗漏了一些东西。

Stuart Hameroff wrote to me and he said, I think you're missing something.

你不太了解微管吧？他没有直接这么说，但大致是这个意思。

You don't know about microtubules, do He didn't put it quite like that, but that was more or less it.

他说，这才是你真正需要考虑的东西。

And he said, this is what you really need to consider.

我当时就想，天啊。

So I thought, my god.

没错。

Yes.

这是个更有前景的结构。

That's a much more promising structure.

所以从根本上说，你一直在人类大脑中寻找不可计算的意识源头，对吧。

So, I mean, fundamentally, you were searching for the source of noncomputable source of consciousness within the human brain Yeah.

在生物学领域。

In the biology.

那么，如果我可以问的话，微管是什么？

And so what are if I may ask, what are microtubules?

嗯，你看，我...我读过的资料里对此一无所知。

Well, you see, I I was ignorant in what I'd read.

我翻阅过的书籍中从未提到过它们。

I never came across them in in in in the books I looked at.

可能我读得比较肤浅，这倒是事实，但我确实不了解微管。

Perhaps I only read rather superficially, which is true, but I didn't know about microtubules.

斯图尔特，我想让他印象深刻的一点是，当你看到细胞有丝分裂的图片时，就是细胞分裂时所有染色体的排列，它们先排成一线然后被拉开。

Stuart, I think one of the things he what's impressed him about them is when you see pictures of mitosis, that's a cell dividing and you see all the chromosomes and the chromosomes get they'll get all get lined up and then they get pulled apart.

随着细胞分裂，染色体分成两半，朝两个不同方向移动。

And so as the cell divides, half the chromosomes go, you know, they divide into the two parts and they go two different ways.

是什么在将它们拉开呢？

And what is it that's pulling them apart?

嗯，就是这些叫做微管的小东西。

Well, those are these little things called microtubules.

于是他对它们产生了兴趣。

And so he started to get interested in them.

他在日常工作（或者说夜间工作）中形成了这个观点——他的工作就是让人进入睡眠状态。嗯。

And he formed the view when he was his day job or night job or whatever you call it is to put people to sleep Mhmm.

不过他不喜欢称之为睡眠，因为两者不同。

Except he doesn't like calling it sleep because it's different.

全身麻醉。嗯。

General anesthetics Mhmm.

以可逆的方式。

In a reversible way.

所以你要确保他们不会感受到原本会经历的疼痛，他们的意识会暂时关闭，之后还能再次唤醒。

So you want to make sure that they don't experience the pain that would otherwise be something that they feel and consciousness is turned off for a while and it can be turned back on again.

因此，能够随时关闭和开启它至关重要。

So it's crucial that you can turn it off and turn it on.

那么你在进行这项操作时具体做什么呢？

And what do you do when you're doing that?

全身麻醉气体究竟有什么作用？

What do general anesthetic gases do?

你看，他形成了这样的观点：这些气体影响的正是微管结构。

And see, he formed the view that it's the microtubules that they affect.

至于他为何形成这个观点的具体原因我并不清楚，但有个他反复提及的有趣故事。

And the details of of why he formed that view is not clear to me, but there but there's an interesting story he keeps talking about.

但我对此感到非常兴奋，因为我认为这些存在于几乎所有细胞中的微小管状结构——不仅仅是神经元，除了红细胞之外，它们几乎存在于身体所有其他细胞中。

But I found this very exciting because I thought these structures, these little tubes which inhabit pretty well all cells, it's not just neurons, apart from red blood cells red blood cells, they inhabit pretty well all the other cells in the body.

但它们并非都是同一种类。

But they're not all the same kind.

微管有不同类型，最让我兴奋的是——虽然这点可能仍未完全明确——但当时最让我激动的类型，也是我唯一了解的类型，因为它们具有高度对称的结构。

You get different kinds of microtubules and the ones that excited me the most, this is may still not be totally clear, but the ones that excited me most were the ones that the only ones that I knew about at the time because they were they're very very symmetrical structures.

我有理由相信这些高度对称的结构能更好地维持量子态，保持量子相干性，维持某些自由度而不让它们泄漏到环境中。

And I had reason to believe that these very symmetrical structures would be much better at preserving a quantum state, quantum coherence, preserving the thing without You just need to preserve certain degrees of freedom without them leaking into the environment.

一旦泄漏到环境中，就彻底失去了。

Once they leak into the environment, you're lost.

所以必须在态约化过程介入的层面上维持这些量子态，我认为这正是非可计算性的来源，也是量子力学中测量过程的本质所在。

So you've got to preserve these quantum states at a level which the state reduction process comes in and that's where I think the non computability comes in, and it's the measurement process in quantum mechanics, what's going on.

所以是关于测量过程和本质的某些特性，关于微管结构的某些特性？是的。

So something about the measurement process and what's going on, something about the structure of the microtubules Yes.

你的直觉告诉你，或许这其中存在某种关联。

Your intuition says, may maybe there's something here.

也许这种结构能够解释

Maybe this kind of structure allows for the the the mystery of

量子概率的奥秘。

the quantum chance.

是的。

Yes.

我突然想到部分原因在于对称性，因为对称性有其特性。

It just struck me that partly it was the symmetry because there is a feature of of symmetry.

使用对称结构能更好地保持量子相干性。

You can produce preserve quantum coherence much better with symmetrical structures.

这其中是有充分理由的。

There's a there's a good reason for that.

这让我印象深刻。

And that impressed me a lot.

我当时并不知道a晶格和b晶格之间的区别，这可能很重要。

I didn't know the difference between the a lattice and b lattice at that time, which could be important.

现在那不可能...这是个很少被讨论的问题。

Now that couldn't That's a See, which isn't talked about much.

但从某种意义上说，这些只是细节。

But that's some in some sense details.

我们需要退一步思考，是的。

We've to take a step back just to say Yeah.

这些人并不熟悉。

These people are not familiar.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以这被称为协调客观还原理论（ORC OR），这是一种生物心智哲学，认为意识起源于神经元内部的量子层面。

So this this this was called the orchestrated objective reduction idea or ORC OR, which is a biological philosophy of mind that postulates that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons.

所以这与你们寻找意识起源的研究有关。

So that has to do with your search for where where is it coming from.

这与认为意识可能产生于突触计算的理论相悖。

So that's counter to the notion that consciousness might arise from the computation performed by the synapses.

是。

Yes.

关键点在于，有时人们会说这是因为量子力学的关系。

The key point, sometimes people say it's because it's quantum mechanical.

不仅如此。

It's not just that.

看吧，这比那还要离谱得多。

See, it's it's more outrageous than that.

你看，这就是我认为我们离真相还很远的原因之一——我们连正确的物理规律都还没掌握。

You see, this is one reason I think we're so far off from it because we don't even know the physics right.

要知道，这不仅仅是量子力学的问题。

You see, it's not just quantum mechanics.

人们总说，哦，你知道量子系统和生物结构吧。

People say, oh, you know quantum systems and biological structures.

不。

No.

好吧，你开始意识到某些基本生物系统确实依赖于量子效应。

Well, you're starting to see that some basic biological systems does depend on quantum.

我是说，首先，所有的化学本质上都是量子力学。

I mean, look, the first place, all of chemistry is quantum mechanics.

人们已经习惯了这一点，所以他们不把这算在内。

People got used to that, so they don't count that.

所以他说，我们不要把量子化学算在内。

So he said, let's not count quantum chemistry.

我想我们某种程度上已经掌握了这个。

We sort of got the hang of that, I think.

但在光合作用中，你还有不仅仅是化学的量子效应。

But you have quantum effects, which are not just chemical, in photosynthesis.

这是过去几年最引人注目的事情之一，光合作用似乎基本上是一个量子过程，而不仅仅是化学反应。

And this is one of the striking things in the last several years, that photosynthesis seems to be a basically quantum process, which is not simply chemical.

它以非常基础的方式运用了量子力学。

It's using quantum mechanics in a very basic way.

所以你可能会开始说，哦，光合作用是基于量子力学的。

So you could start saying, oh, well, with photosynthesis is based on quantum mechanics.

那为什么神经元行为之类的不可能是呢？

Why not behavior of neurons and things like that?

也许在这方面存在某种类似光合作用的现象。

Maybe there's something which is a bit like photosynthesis in that respect.

但我要说的比这更令人震惊，因为那些讨论还停留在传统量子力学的范畴。

But what I'm saying is even more outrageous than that because those things are talking about conventional quantum mechanics.

我的观点是，传统量子力学如果仅遵循薛定谔方程，那仍然是可计算的。

Now my argument says that conventional quantum mechanics, if you're just following the Schrodinger equation, that's still computable.

所以你必须超越这个层面。

So you've got to go beyond that.

某种意义上说，你需要进入量子力学失效的领域。

So you've got to go to where quantum mechanics goes wrong in a certain sense.

对此需要稍加谨慎，因为人们实践量子力学的方式是两种不同过程的混合体。

You have to be a little bit careful about that because the way people do quantum mechanics is a sort of mixture of two different processes.

其中之一是薛定谔方程，这个方程描述了系统状态如何演化。

One of them is the Schrodinger equation, which is an equation Schrodinger wrote down and it tells you how the the state of a system evolves.

它完全按照这个确定性方程演化，但最终会陷入荒谬的境地。

And it evolves according to this equation, completely deterministic, but it involves into ridiculous situations.

这正是薛定谔用他的猫实验极力指出的问题。

And this was what Schrodinger was very much pointing out with his cat.

他说，如果你遵循我的方程——薛定谔方程，那么你可能会得到一只既死又活的猫。

He says, you follow my equation, that's Schrodinger's equation, and you could say that you have to cat which is dead and alive at the same time.

薛定谔方程的演化会导致一个猫同时处于死与活的状态。

That would be the evolution of the Schrodinger equation would lead to a state which is the cat being dead and alive at the same time.

他基本上是在说这是荒谬的。

And he's more or less saying this is an absurdity.

如今人们会说，哦，薛定谔说过你可以有一只死灯猫。

People nowadays say, oh, well, Schrodinger said you can have a cat with dead lights.

不是那样的。

Not that.

你看，他是在说这是荒谬的。

You see, he was saying this is an absurdity.

这里缺少了某些东西。

There's something missing.

态矢的约化或波函数的坍缩，无论它是什么，都是必须被理解的现象。

And that the reduction of the state or the collapse of the wave function or whatever it is is something which is has to be understood.

它并不遵循薛定谔方程。

It's not following the Schrodinger equation.

这不是我们传统进行量子力学的方式。

It's not the way we conventionally do quantum mechanics.

这其中还有更深层次的东西。

There's something more than that.

在这里引用权威很容易，因为爱因斯坦，至少二十世纪三位最伟大的物理学家，他们都在量子力学的发展中起到了根本性的作用。

And it's easy to quote authority here because Einstein, at least three of the greatest physicists of twentieth century, who were very fundamental in developing quantum mechanics.

爱因斯坦是其中之一，薛定谔是另一个，狄拉克是第三个。

Einstein, one of them, Schrodinger, another, Dirac, another.

你必须仔细研读狄拉克的著作，因为他并不经常公开表达这些观点，他对自己的言论非常谨慎。

You have to look carefully at Dirac's writing because he didn't tend to say this out loud very much because he was very cautious about what he said.

当你找到正确的位置时就会发现，他说量子力学是一个暂定的理论。

You find the right place and you see, says quantum mechanics is a provisional theory.

我们需要一种能解释波函数坍缩的理论。

We need something which explains the collapse of the wave function.

我们需要超越现有的理论。

We need to go beyond the theory we have now.

我恰好是这类人中的一员，这类人其实有很多，有一个完整的群体。

I happen to be one of the kinds of people, there are many There is a whole group of people.

他们都被认为有点...你知道...有点特立独行，认为量子力学需要被修正。

They're all considered to be a bit, you know, bit mavericks who believe that quantum mechanics needs to be modified.

其中有少数人——在已经是少数群体的基础上——认为必须以引力的方式来进行修正。

There's a small minority of those people which are already a minority who think that the way in which it's modified has to be with gravity.

还有更少数的人认为，修正方式必须采用我设想的那种特定方式。

And there is an even smaller minority of those people who think it's a particular way that I think it is, you see.

所以...这些就是量子引力派的人。

So So those are the quantum gravity folks.

但什么是你...

But what's You

看，量子引力已经不止于此了。

see quantum gravity is already not this.

因为当你提到量子引力时，实际上指的是应用于引力理论的量子力学。

Because when you say quantum gravity, what you really mean is quantum mechanics applied to gravitational theory.

也就是说，我们要采用量子力学这套精妙的体系，并让引力融入其中。

So you say, let's take this wonderful formalism of quantum mechanics and make gravity fit into it.

这就是量子引力应有的含义。

So that is what quantum gravity is meant to be.

而我现在主张需要更加平衡地看待这个问题。

Now I'm saying you've got to be more even handed.

引力同样会影响量子力学的结构。

That gravity affects the structure of quantum mechanics too.

不仅仅是把引力量子化。

It's not just you quantize gravity.

还必须让量子力学引力化。

You've got to gravitize quantum mechanics.

这是一个双向的过程。

And it's a it's a two way thing.

但那你什么时候才能开始呢？

But then when do you even get started?

所以你的意思是，我们必须想出全新的概念

So that you're saying that we have to figure out a totally new ideas in

在那里。

there.

正是如此。

Exactly.

不。

No.

你被卡住了。

It's it's you're stuck.

你还没有一个理论。

You don't have a theory.

问题就在这里。

That's the trouble.

所以如果你问'理论是什么'，这就是个大问题。

So this is a big problem if you say, okay, well, what's the theory?

不知道。

Don't know.

所以这可能还处于非常早期的阶段

So it may be in the very early days sort of

现在还处于非常早期阶段，不是吗？

It is in the very early days, isn't it?

但我只是提出这个观点。

But I'm just making this point.

是的。

Yes.

你看，斯图尔特·哈默罗夫倾向于说，彭罗斯认为必须要有状态约化之类的，所以我们就用这个理论。

You see, Stuart Hameroff tends to be, oh, Penrose says that it's got to be a reduction of the state and so on, so let's use it.

问题在于彭罗斯并没有那样说。

The trouble is Penrose doesn't say that.

彭罗斯说的是，嗯，我认为。

Penrose says, well I think that.

不。

No.

我们目前还没有实验能证明这一点。

We have no experiments as yet which shows that.

是的。

Yes.

有些实验正在构思中，我希望它们能够被执行。

There are experiments which are being thought through and which I'm hoping will be performed.

有一个由德克·鲍迈斯特开发的实验，我认识他很久了，他在荷兰的莱顿和美国的圣巴巴拉两地工作。

There is an experiment which is being developed by Dirk Baumeister who I've known for a long time, who shares his time between Leiden in The Netherlands and Santa Barbara in The US.

他一直在研究一个实验，或许可以证明如果我们不引入引力效应，我们目前所理解的量子力学就需要被修正。

And he's been working on an experiment which could perhaps demonstrate that quantum mechanics as we now understand it, if you don't bring in the gravitational effects, has to be modified.

此外还有一些正在进行的实验，试图从微管角度研究生物学中是否存在类似现象。

And and then there's also experiments that are underway that kind of look at the microtubule side of things to see if there's in the biology, you could see something like that.

你能简要提一下吗？

Could you briefly mention it?

因为这是在意识研究萌芽阶段为数不多的实验尝试之一。

Because that's a really sort of one of the only experimental attempts in the very early days of even thinking about consciousness.

我认为斯图尔特·海默夫正在研究的领域非常严肃，而且极其重要。

I think there's there's a very serious area here, which is what Stuart Hemmorph is doing, and I think it's very important.

少数能真正触及意识本质的切入点之一，就是研究什么会让意识关闭。

One of the few places that you can really get a bit of a handle on what consciousness is is what turns it off.

当你研究全身麻醉剂时，会发现其作用非常特异。

And when you're thinking about general anesthetics, it's very specific.

这些物质能关闭意识。

These things turn consciousness off.

它们到底是怎么做到的？

What the hell do they do?

对。

Right.

斯图尔特和他的许多同事以及其他人都认为，全身麻醉剂会直接影响微管。

Well, Stuart and a number of people who work with him and others happen to believe that the general anesthetics directly affect microtubules.

这方面确实有一些证据。

And there is some evidence for this.

我不清楚证据有多充分、论证有多严密，但我认为有证据指向这个方向。

I don't know how strong it is and how watertight the case is, but I think there is some evidence pointing in that kind of direction.

这不是普通的化学过程，其中存在相当特殊的作用机制。

It's not just an ordinary chemical process, there's something quite different about it.

主要假说之一就是这些麻醉气体会直接影响微管。

And one of the main candidates is that these anesthetic gases do affect directly microtubules.

至于证据的说服力有多强，我无法断言。

And how strong that evidence is, wouldn't be in a position to say.

但我认为现有证据相当令人信服。

But I think there is fairly impressive evidence.

关键是相关实验正在进行中，没错。

And the point is the experiments are being undertaken which is Yep.

我是说这属于实验性质。

I mean that is experimental.

你看，这是一个非常明确的方向，可以设计实验来验证麻醉气体是否真的直接影响微管。

You see, it's a very clear direction where you can think of experiments which could indicate whether or not it's really microtubules, which the anesthetic gases directly affect.

这确实令人兴奋。

That's really exciting.

令人遗憾的一点是，从我的外部视角来看，研究这个领域的人并不多。

One of the sad things is, as far as from my outside perspective, is not many people are working on this.

就像和斯图尔特一起的情况，感觉只有极少数人在推动这个领域的发展。

So there's a very like with Stuart, it feels like there's very few people are carrying the flag forward on this.

我认为虽然从数量上看是少数派，但现在已经不是零了。

I think it's it's not many in the sense it's a minority, but it's not zero anymore.

要知道，当初斯图尔特和我刚开始时，就只有我们和少数几个朋友在研究。

You see, when Stuart and I were originally It was you know, we were just just us and a few few of our friends.

起初接受这个观点的人不多，但它已发展成为主要观点之一。

There weren't many people taking it, but it's grown into into one of the main viewpoints.

目前可能有四五六种不同观点并存，而这就是其中之一。

There might be about four or five or six different views that which people hold and it's one of them.

它被视为一种可能的思考路径。

It's it's considered as one of the possible lines of thinking.

是的。

Yes.

你将物理理论描述为分属三大类别。

You describe physics theories as falling into one of three categories.

卓越的、实用的或试探性的。

The superb, the useful, or the tentative.

我喜欢这种表述。

I like those words.

这是个绝妙的分类法。

It's a beautiful categorization.

你认为我们最终能拥有一个关于智能和意识的卓越理论吗？

Do you think we'll ever have a superb theory of intelligence and of consciousness?

或许可以。

We might.

我们离那还很遥远。

We're a long way from it.

我不确定我们是否已经达到了'暂定'级别。

I don't think we're even whether we're in the tentative scale.

我是说，这

I mean, it's

你认为我们甚至还没进入'暂定'的领域？

a You don't think we've even entered the realm of tentative?

很可能没有。

Probably not.

是啊，确实。

Think Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

不。

No.

当你看到这个如此具有争议性的话题时，我们并没有一个被多数人接受的明确观点。

You when you see this so so controversial, we don't have a a clear view which which is accepted by a majority.

我是说，你看，人们各执一词。

I mean, you say, you have people.

大多数观点在某种程度上都认为是计算性质的。

Most views are computationally in one form or another.

他们认为这是某种计算过程，但又不十分明确——就连那些IIT理论支持者虽然将其视为计算过程，我也听过他们否认说'意识应该不是计算性的'。

They think it's some, but it's not very clear because even the the IIT people who think think of them as computational, but I've heard them say and say, no, consciousness is supposed to be not computational.

我就说，如果不是计算性的，那它到底是什么玩意儿？

I say, well, if it's not computational, what the hell is it?

到底是怎么回事？

What's go what's going on?

这些正在发生的物理过程究竟是什么？

What physical processes are going on which are that?

那么，某物具有计算性意味着什么？

What what does it mean for something to be computational then?

所以是

So is

嗯，必须存在一个过程...你看，量子力学的发展史非常奇妙，因为早在初期，人们就认为它与意识有关，但几乎恰恰相反。

Well, there has to be a a process which is You see, it's very curious the way the history has developed in quantum mechanics because very early on, people thought there was something to do with consciousness, but it was almost the other way around.

你看，薛定谔方程表明所有这些不同的可能性会同时发生。

You see, you have to say the Schrodinger equation says all these different alternatives happen all at once.

那么，究竟何时其中只有一种会实际发生？

And then when is it that only one of them happens?

有一种观点被少数杰出的量子物理学家普遍认同：当有意识的生物观察系统或意识到它时，系统就会坍缩为其中一种状态。

Well, one of the views which is quite commonly held by a few distinguished quantum physicists, is when a conscious being looks at the system or becomes aware of it and at that point, it becomes one or the other.

这就是意识以某种方式主动约化量子态的观点。

That's a row where consciousness is somehow actively reducing the state.

我的观点几乎与之完全相反。

My view is almost the exact opposite of that.

是状态以某种非计算的方式自行缩减，这种方式我们尚未理解，也没有合适的理论来解释，而这正是构成意识的基础要素之一。

It's the state reduces itself in some way which some non computational way which we don't understand, we don't have a proper theory of, and that is a building block of what consciousness is.

所以意识其实是相反的。

So consciousness is the other way around.

它依赖于自然界不断做出的选择——当状态从叠加态坍缩为其中一种可能时。

It depends on that choice which nature makes all the time when the state becomes one or the other rather than the superposition of one and the other.

当这种情况发生时，就出现了我们所说的原始意识元素。

And when that happens, there is what we're saying now an element of proto consciousness takes place.

原始意识粗略来说就是构成真实意识的基础构件。

Proto consciousness is roughly speaking the building block out of which actual consciousness is constructed.

这些原始意识元素就是状态决定选择某种可能性的时刻，当它们被组织起来时，就形成了ORC OR理论中的OR部分。

So you have these proto conscious elements which are when the state decides to do one thing or the other And that's the thing which when organized together, that's the OR part in ORC OR.

但ORC部分——至少其中的OR部分——可以视为该理论的一个驱动方向。

But the ORC part, that's the the OR part at least one can see where one driving it as a theory.