现代爸爸的实用建议

本周的NPR政治播客中，共和党人正陷入被动，而且即将在广告上投入大量资金。

This week on the NPR politics podcast, Republicans are on their heels and about to spend a lot of money on ads.

其中一些广告会很难看，而且这将是一场相当负面的竞选活动。

Some of these, ads are gonna be ugly, and it's gonna be a pretty negative campaign.

这就是中期选举的本质，当共和党面临这样的环境时，情况就是这样。

That's the nature of a midterm when you've got an environment like the one that the Republicans are facing.

距离中期选举不到四十天，本周的NPR政治播客将关注共和党的资金机器。

We look at the Republican money machine with less than forty days until the midterms this week on the NPR Politics Podcast.

这里是NPR的《生活工具》。

This is NPR's Life Kit.

我是玛丽尔·塞加特拉。

I'm Mariel Segatra.

《生活工具》记者安迪·塔格尔。

Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle.

你好。

Hi.

嗨，玛丽尔。

Hi, Mariel.

早上好。

Good morning.

我觉得你在《生活工具》里最喜欢的话题之一就是精神负担。

One of your favorite topics I feel like on Life Kit is the mental load.

那是什么意思？

What does it mean?

精神负担。

The mental load.

精神负担涵盖了很多东西。

The mental load is so many things.

有时候也叫隐形劳动。

It's sometimes called invisible labor.

就是那些幕后的思考、规划、组织和执行。

It's all that behind the scenes thinking, planning, organizing, executing.

维持一个家庭运转需要做的一切事情。

It's everything it takes to keep a household running.

而且很多时候，这些事更多地落在一个人身上，而不是另一个人。

And oftentimes, it falls on one person more than the other.

我觉得我们在谈论精神负担时，通常是在谈论女性和妈妈们。

I feel like when we talk about the mental load, we're often talking about women and moms.

为什么会这样呢？

Why is that?

因为，你知道，从整体来看，数据就是这么显示的。

Because, you know, in aggregate, that's what the data shows.

你知道，在大多数异性恋关系中，女性承担了大部分的工作。

You know, in in most heterosexual relationships, it's the female that takes on the lion's share of the work.

即使双方都有工作，即使双方赚的钱一样多，这也不是每对情侣或每个家庭的真实情况。

Even when both partners are working, even when both partners make the same amount of money, that's not the truth of every individual relationship or every individual family.

我认识很多非常投入的爸爸。

I know lots of super involved dads.

我爸爸就是其中之一。

My dad is one of them.

我丈夫也是其中之一。

My husband is one of them.

我认识一些爸爸，他们是主要的照顾者。

I know dads who are the primary parent.

但总的来说，数据显示的就是这样。

But in aggregate, overall, that's what the data shows.

数据并不能反映全部情况。

The the data doesn't tell the whole picture.

我想这是你上次做完关于精神负担那期节目后听到的。

And I guess that is something that you heard after you did your last episode on the mental load.

你收到了一群爸爸的反馈。

You heard from a bunch of dads.

所以今天这期节目的一个重要灵感，来自我们最近做的一个故事，它并不只是针对女性和妈妈们的。

So a big inspiration for today's episode is a recent story we did that wasn't exclusively for women and moms.

但因为那期节目讲的是精神负担，很多话都是专门对她们说的，而且有些例子也带有性别色彩。

But because it was about the mental load, a lot of the language was directed toward only them, and some of the examples were gendered.

所以我收到了很多男性、丈夫和父亲的反馈，他们说，嘿。

So I heard from a lot of men and husbands and fathers being like, hey.

你知道吗，我们也想参与这个话题。

You know, we wanna be a part of this conversation.

他们觉得自己被排除在外了。

They felt excluded.

他们说，我们其实也参与很多。

They said, we are really involved too.

我们也在场。

We are here.

我们也有贡献。

We contribute.

这到底是怎么回事？

What gives?

我当时就想，说得对。

And I was like, fair.

而且你知道吗，研究也支持这些人的说法。

And you know, the research backs these guys up.

风气在变。

The winds are changing.

最近一项研究发现，美国爸爸们花在家务和育儿上的时间比过去二十年都多。

One recent study found that American dads are spending more time on household and child rearing activities than in the previous two decades.

所以这是一期邮件问答节目，父亲节特别版。

So this is a mailbag episode, a Father's Day mailbag.

你的专家是谁？

Who are your experts?

其中一位是凯文·马奎尔。

One of them is Kevin Maguire.

他是一名顾问，也是新书《新父亲》的作者，这本书也是他非常受欢迎的通讯和社区的名字，内容都是关于父亲的一切。

So he's a consultant and author of the new book, The New Fatherhood, which is also the name of his very popular newsletter and, community about all things fatherhood.

那些拥抱父亲角色的爸爸们，真的有很大的发挥空间。

There is just this huge scope for really kind of, like, the dads who embrace fatherhood.

这几乎就是‘爸爸力’拉满。

It's almost dad maxing.

就是真的想从和孩子们的关系中，得到他们能得到的最大收获。

Like, to really seek to get the the the very most that they can get out of their relationships with their children.

然后我们的另一位专家是大卫·迪福。

And then our other expert is David Defoe.

他是一位临床心理学家，也是我们播客的朋友。

He's a clinical psychologist and also a friend of the pod.

我觉得我们有必要给男性一些肯定，因为他们确实更多地参与进来了。

I think that it's important for us to sort of, you know, give men credit because men are showing up more.

而且我觉得部分原因是，虽然我们还有很长的路要走，但我们开始培养情感上的力量，能更好地表达自己，这样我们就知道如何更好地参与。

And I think a part of that is because while we have so much longer to go, we are beginning to develop the emotional strength to, you know, express ourselves better so that we know how to show up better.

要聊的话题可不少。

There is no shortage of things to talk about.

以上就是我们为你准备的内容

So that's what we have for you

这一期的内容。

for this episode.

给现代爸爸们很多实用的建议。

Lots of practical advice for modern dads.

比如如何健康地表达愤怒、如何找到友谊，以及如何和伴侣一起应对高压育儿情境，还有很多其他内容。

Things like anger and how to express it in a healthy way, friendship and where to find it, and how to navigate high stress parenting situations with your partner, and lots more.

我们很多人浴室里基本上就像开了一个小美妆店。

A lot of us have basically a mini beauty product store in our bathrooms.

而且很容易觉得，如果不用对精华、面霜、酸类产品和爽肤水，皮肤就注定会变差。

And it's easy to feel like if you don't use the right serums, creams, acids, and toners, you're somehow doomed to having bad skin.

但你真的需要那么多产品吗？

But do you really need all those products?

Life Kit 制作了一个特别的新闻通讯系列，帮你明确护肤目标，弄清楚你真正需要什么。

Life Kit made a special newsletter series to help you figure out your skincare goals and what you actually need.

在npr.org/skincare注册，或者在本集描述里找链接。

Sign up at npr.org/skincare or find the link in the description for this episode.

首先，我们有一个关于性别角色的问题。

First up, we've got a question surrounding gender roles.

嗨，Life Kit的朋友们。

Hi Life Kit friends.

我是来自圣路易斯的Rob Turan。

This is Rob Turan from St.

路易斯。

Louis.

我是一个单亲爸爸，抚养一个五岁的女儿，我一直在纠结该教她关于男人的什么。

I'm a single dad raising a five year old daughter and I find myself wrestling with questions about what should I teach her about men.

一方面，我看到女性面临的真实危险。

On one hand, I see the real dangers women face.

关于骚扰和侵犯的故事到处都是。

Stories of harassment and assault are everywhere.

我应该教她什么，才能让她感到安全、坚强、受尊重，而不会在成长过程中把每个男人都当成危险？

What should I be teaching her so she can feel safe, strong, respected without growing up, seeing every man as a danger?

我觉得这个问题问得非常好。

I thought that was an excellent question.

我知道，作为一个儿子的妈妈，

I know that as a mother to a son,

这也是我一直在纠结的事情。

this is something I struggle with.

我想知道您对我们这位听众有什么建议。

I wonder if you have any advice for our listener.

这个问题问得非常勇敢，我百分之百为你点赞。

That's a very courageous question, and I applaud you, 100% for the question.

我觉得我们能给女儿做的最重要的事情，就是成为那个活生生的榜样。

And I think the most important thing that we can do for our daughters is to be that present example.

现在我的女儿已经14岁了。

Where I am now, my daughter is 14.

对我来说，关键是要让她知道，一个男人应该给她带来安全感、稳定感，让她感到被保护、被爱。

I think for me, it's making sure that she knows that what a man provides should look safe, it should look steady, and that she's protected, that she's loved.

还要看那个人如何对待你的情绪，如何处理你遇到的各种各样的问题。

It's also about how that person shows up to handle your emotions, to handle the myriad of concerns that come to you.

对我来说，最具挑战性的事情之一是我女儿进入青春期时，我发现自己开始退缩，因为事情变得有点，说实话，有点尴尬，我不太明白。

And for me, I think that one of the things that was most challenging was when my daughter hit puberty, I noticed that I started to retreat because things got a little, I'll be honest, things got a little awkward and I don't understand.

所以对于那位单亲爸爸，我想说，当那一刻到来时，一定要保持参与，保持关注，不要因为事情变化而感到不自在，而是要继续做她身边那个可靠的依靠。

And so for this gentleman that's a single father, I would just say that when that does come, make sure that you stay engaged, make sure that you stay attentive, that you don't get uncomfortable when things do change, but yet you stay that present help to her.

我喜欢这个说法，大卫。

I love that, David.

而且真的感觉，作为一个女儿即将进入青春期的父亲，保持沟通渠道畅通，让她感到安全、安心，可以随时来找我，这真的很重要。

And it really feels like as a father of a daughter who's on the verge of entering her teenage years, really kind of keeping those channels of communication open and making her feel safe and secure that she can come to me with anything.

你知道，不只是说去找你妈妈。

You know, it's not just like go to your mom.

我觉得我们在父亲角色上看到的一个重大转变是，越来越多的男性真正承担起责任，不仅仅是传统意义上父亲该做的事情，还包括情感方面的责任。

I think that's one of the one of the big shifts that we've seen in fatherhood is really the idea that, you know, more more men are are really taking responsibility, not just for the the things that fatherhood has traditionally been known for, but the emotional side of things as well.

就针对这个问题来说，我觉得这是我们作为父母现在都在努力应对的最大挑战之一，那就是怎么让孩子了解世界上正在发生的事情，但又不会让他们感到害怕？

Just to just to address the the question, you know, I think this is kind of just one of the biggest things that we're all trying to navigate as parents today, which is, like, how do we raise our children to be just aware of of what is going on in the world without being terrified of it?

比如说，年轻女性可能会面临来自其他男人的危险。

You know, it could be the dangers that a young woman will face from other men.

也可能是气候危机这类问题。

It could be the kind of the climate crisis.

还可能是政治方面的。

It could be political.

当我想到我女儿的时候，我经常想的是，怎么才能让她保持对世界的好奇心和热情，而不是去打击这种热情？

What I often think about when I think about my daughter is just like, how do I allow her to keep that curiosity and excitement that she has about the world and not to dampen that?

我们作为父母的工作，就是尽量引导她们走过这条路。

And the job that we do as parents is to try and help shepherd them through that that path.

好的。

Okay.

我们接着看下一个问题。

Moving on to our next question.

看起来妈妈们的聚会小组资源多得数不清，但爸爸们的选择却不多。

It seems like there are an infinite number of resources for mommy meetup groups, but not a ton of options for fathers.

我希望像我妻子那样有一个支持小组，特别是那种不只是她朋友伴侣的团体。

I'd like to have more of a support group the way that my wife does, specifically something separate from just the partners of her friends.

但我真的不知道该怎么办，因为我每天连陪家人的时间和精力都不够。

But I don't really know what to do about it when I barely have enough time and energy in the day to spend with my family.

我觉得我们确实没有把友谊和联系放在优先位置。

I mean, we don't prioritize friendships and connections.

这感觉像是一个沉重的负担。

It feels like a heavy load.

好像我们觉得必须被邀请才能参加这些活动。

Like we feel that we need to be invited to these things.

其实很多男人都在渴望某种社区，而只需要有人带头开始做点什么。

When like everyone is crying out, like there's so many men are yearning for any kind of community and all it takes is just to start something up.

我组织过一次爸爸们的聚会。

I hosted a meetup for dads.

活动定在每个月的第三个星期三，我尽量把门槛降到最低。

It's on the third Wednesday of the month, and I I made as low stakes as possible.

我说，我就去这家酒吧。

I said, I am gonna go to this bar.

我会带一本书。

I'm going to bring a book.

如果有人来陪我，我更愿意跟你聊天而不是看书。

If anyone joins me, I would rather talk to you than read the book.

但如果没人来，也没关系。

But if nobody turns up, it's fine.

现在经常有二十个人因为对父亲角色更深、更丰富的理解而聚在一起。

And regularly now, there's there's 20 of us that have connected to each other over this idea of a deeper, more richer sense of what fatherhood could look like.

我觉得我们交朋友的方式也不一样，凯文好像提到过这一点。

I think even also how we form friendships are different, which I think Kevin sort of mentioned.

当然，女性的友谊往往是面对面的。

Women, of course, their friendships are often face to face.

男人呢，更多是肩并肩的那种。

Men, we're more so shoulder to shoulder.

我们得做点什么。

We have to be doing something.

总得有个活动，比如打场篮球，或者做个项目，或者参加个小组，诸如此类的。

There has to be some activity, know, a basketball run, or a project, or a group, or something like that.

或者就像凯文说的，你说要去酒吧见面，那去酒吧的目的是什么呢？

Or even as Kevin said, you know, saying, I'm gonna meet in this bar, and what is the purpose of meeting in the bar?

不是为了聊某个特定的话题，而是喝几杯啤酒，聊到哪儿算哪儿。

Not to talk about this particular topic, but we're gonna have some beers, and whatever comes up, comes up.

这样也挺好的。

And that's perfectly fine.

我们不再靠偶然来建立联系了，尤其是年纪大了以后，必须有意识地去做。

We find connection not by happenstance anymore, especially when you get older, it has to be some intentionality.

得安排个时间，得有个计划，然后才能坚持下来，说，你知道吗？

It has to be something that's scheduled it has to be something that we can then defend and put some structure around to say, you know what?

这就是我每周四和这群人一起做的事。

This is what I do every Thursday with this group of people.

人们都在找借口建立这些联系。

And people are looking for that excuse to have these connections.

我和年轻爸爸们聊天时，发现他们真的渴望以更有意义的方式建立联系，哪怕这意味着要面对自己的情感。

When I talk to younger dads, there is a real drive to connect together in more meaningful ways, even if that means confronting feelings.

你知道，我觉得现在越来越多的男性圈子开始流行起来，我自己也办过几个，线上线下都有，这些圈子本质上就不是肩并肩式的。

Know, I think the all of these men's circles that are starting to become more and more popular now, you know, I've been I've run a few of them myself, both online and in person, and they are very much not shoulder to shoulder, by definition.

我觉得，男性变得更加有情商、更有韧性，并且找到和其他也在努力做这件事的男性一起的空间，这是我在这代人的父亲角色中看到的最大变化之一。

You know, I think this idea of men becoming more emotionally intelligent, emotionally resilient, and finding the space to do it with other men who are trying to do that work too, I think is is one of the biggest shifts that I've seen, in in fatherhood for this generation.

那你还在等什么呢？

So what are you waiting for?

趁休息一下，给幼儿园认识的爸爸朋友发个短信，约个时间喝杯啤酒或者参加个活动，或者聊聊这个播客。

Take a quick break with us and text that dad friend from day care to schedule a meet up for a beer or event session, meet up to talk about this podcast.

我们回来后，会聊聊如何处理愤怒、在关系中应对育儿压力，以及管理精神负担。

When we come back, we'll talk about working through anger, dealing with parenting stress in your relationship, and managing the mental load.

我接下来想跟你聊的话题是愤怒。

The next topic I have for you, is anger.

我在想，我身边很多爸爸都决心要成为孩子更好的情感榜样，但他们自己是被那种要么不谈感受、要么就是“再哭我就揍你”态度的父亲带大的。

I'm thinking about how a lot of the dads in my circle are determined to be better emotional role models for their kids, but were raised by fathers who either didn't talk about their feelings or had that I'll give you something to cry about attitude.

我们能不能聊聊，为什么男性表达情感，尤其是对孩子表达情感，会这么难？

Can we talk a little about why it can be so much more difficult for men to express their feelings generally and towards their kids specifically?

我觉得是因为没人教过我们怎么表达。

I don't think that we were taught how.

我们也没有好的榜样。

We don't have a good example.

社会告诉我们，男人不能哭，男人要坚强，要忍着，反正就是那些话。

Society tells us men don't cry, men not to be strong, suck it up, whatever it is that people say.

问题是，当我们没有足够的情绪词汇来表达感受时，这些情绪就会以负面行为的方式爆发出来。

The thing is when we don't have the emotional vocabulary to express how we're feeling, instead it comes out in negative behavior.

我不知道是谁说的，但有人说过，你不说出来、不哭出来，就会用行动发泄出来。

I don't know who said it, but someone once said, act out what you won't talk out or cry out.

所以这些情绪最后就变成了负面行为和压抑的情绪。

And so it comes out instead in negative behavior and pent up emotions.

所以我觉得，对男人来说，重要的是去培养自己的情感词汇，这样才能说出自己的感受，才能跟孩子坦诚交流，避免出现那种情绪转移的情况。

And so I think it's important for men to go through the process of developing the emotional vocabulary so they can speak to how they feel so that they can talk honestly to their children, so that there's not like things like displacement happening.

因为我在老板面前不能表达真实感受，所以我回家就把气撒在你身上，或者对你没好气，因为我在那边有情绪，却没有处理好。

So because I can't tell the boss how I really feel, I'm gonna come home and I'm going to take that out on you, or I'm short with you because I'm upset over here, I'm not processing how I'm feeling over here.

而且我们可以在工作上也做到这一点。

And that we could do that professionally.

我们也可以自己做到这一点。

And we also can do that on our own.

你知道吗，对我来说，我是那种不生气的人。

You know, for me, I'm one of those, I don't get angry kind of guys.

就是那种，哦，我不生气。

It's like, oh, I don't get angry.

我几乎是在跟我的治疗师炫耀，说，嘿，我觉得我过去十年里只发过五次脾气。

And I was almost boasting to my therapist and saying, Hey, I only think I lost my temper like five times in the last ten years.

她说，那如果你的孩子跑进来，故意把你心爱的东西砸了，你会怎么样？

And she said, Well, what if your kid came in and intentionally just smashed something of yours that you cared about?

我说，我觉得我会站起来走开。

And I said, Well, I think I would just stand up and walk away.

她说，那你为什么不告诉他们你感到生气呢？

And she said, well, you know, why don't you tell them that you're feeling angry?

所以对我来说，这真的是一个学习的过程，学会在家庭里遇到情况时，允许自己生气，虽然这有点奇怪。

So for me, it's been a real process of learning to allow myself to be angry in a weird way when a situation arises in the house.

我会想，现在生气是不是合理的反应？

And I think, is anger a proportional response right now?

我觉得这跟大卫之前说的正好相反，很有意思。

That's a really interesting inverse, I think, of what David was saying earlier.

大卫，你能跟我们说说，好的愤怒是什么样的？健康的愤怒是什么样的？

David, I wonder if you could tell us what does what does good anger, what does healthy anger look like?

我经常跟我的客户说，听着，如果你能让一种情绪变得有用，哪怕是焦虑，那你就可以保留它。

I say to my clients all the time, listen, if you can make an emotion, even if it's anxiety, if you can make it useful, you can keep it.

愤怒是当界限被跨越时的一种自然的人类反应。

Anger is a natural human response when lines have been crossed.

唯一的问题是，那我该怎么处理它呢？

The only question is, well, what do I then do with it?

所以，如果我能把它对准目标，把愤怒指向正确的地方，让它真正以有益的方式解决问题，而不是破坏我的关系，不是以愤世嫉俗、不尊重甚至攻击性的方式发泄出来，那我就可以保留它。

So if I can get it targeted and if I can aim my anger at the right place so that it actually solves my problem in a beneficial way as opposed to deteriorating my relationships, as opposed to it coming out with cynicism, with disrespect, or even aggression, then I can keep it.

那样它就有益了，我能从中成长，而不是被它炸毁。

Then it's beneficial, so I grow from it as opposed to blowing up from it.

或者，大卫，或者就像我们经常做的那样，如果找不到合适的地方安放愤怒，就会把愤怒转向自己。

Or or, David, or or as we all too often do is turn that anger in on ourselves if we can't find a good place for it.

这时内疚和羞耻就来了，你知道，我们开始对自己生气。

That's where guilt and shame then comes in, you know, where we start to get angry at ourselves.

所以，如果你能理解愤怒并正确使用它，它就不一定是坏事。

So anger doesn't have to be a bad thing if you can understand it and use it right.

你指的方向是对的。

You're pointing in the right direction.

好的。

Okay.

最后一个问题来自我们圣地亚哥本地。

The last question I'm bringing you is from right here at home in San Diego.

我问了我丈夫，一位现代爸爸，他可能需要什么帮助。

I asked my husband, a modern dad, what he might need some help with.

他叫安德烈斯·阿尔沃卡达纳斯。

His name is Andres Alvocardanas.

他想了想，然后回来问了一个关于和伴侣一起应对育儿压力的问题。

He gave it a think, and he came back with a question about dealing with stressful parenting situations with your partner.

下面请他来说。

Here he is.

我们的儿子最近夜里总是醒来，哭着找妈妈。

Our son has been waking up all hours of the night screaming for his mom.

虽然几个月前他还能自己安抚自己，重新入睡。

Even though just a few months back, he was able to self soothe and put himself back down.

我们有一个大致的计划，但他总是醒过来，需求各不相同，而且我们有时会因为意见不合而让情况更混乱。

We have a general game plan, but he keeps waking up with different wants and needs and because we sometimes add to the chaos by disagreeing.

所以你们有没有什么策略，能在需要临时应变的时候，快速和伴侣达成一致？

So do you all have any strategies on how to quickly get on the same page with your partner when it's necessary to improvise?

首先，安迪，像对你丈夫说的，这个问题问得好，先给你点赞。

Well, first, Andy, like, to your husband, props for the question, first up.

第二个问题，我听到的时候，脑子里立刻回到了我的婚礼那天。

On the second one, when I was listening to it, my mind immediately went back to my wedding day, actually.

就在我们准备离开的时候，有一对老夫妇走过来，正好我们上车的时候。

And just as we were leaving, there was this old couple that came up to us just as we were getting in the car.

我记得特别清楚。

And and I remember it so vividly.

他们走到我们面前，微笑着。

And they walked up to us and they smiled.

那位丈夫说，嘿，你们会有一些美好的时光。

And the husband said, hey, you're gonna have some good times.

你们也会遇到一些糟糕的时候。

You're gonna have some bad times.

但不管发生什么，记住，你们是同一队的。

But no matter what happens, remember this, you're on the same team.

我觉得这在育儿中经常出现，就是你们俩怎么才能站在同一边，把问题放在对面？

And I think this so often with parenting, which is like, how do you both put yourselves on one side of the table and put the problem on the other?

不管问题是心理负担，还是孩子睡不着觉。

Whether the problem is the mental load, whether the problem is a child that can't sleep.

你知道，孩子不睡觉是个特别棘手的问题，因为我们没睡够七个小时，一切都会变得更糟。

You know, children not sleeping is a particular flavor of problem because everything is exacerbated when we haven't had our seven hours.

天哪，那简直糟透了。

Oh my God, that's 100 times worse.

确实糟多了。

It's so much worse.

我们会对彼此发脾气，那种怨恨就会积累起来。

And we're snappy with each other and that kind of resentment builds.

你会说，我昨晚做了这个，而你，我连续三个晚上没睡，还有所有这些事。

You're like, I did this last night and you I was up three nights and all these things.

我觉得只要能达到那个境界，你就会说，嘿。

And I think just to get to the place where you go, hey.

你知道吗？

You know what?

我们在这里是同一阵线的，这是我们能互相支持、共同达成目标的最好方式。

We're on the same side here is the best way that we can support each other to be able to get there.

但是，我知道，我为你感到难过。

But, know, I I feel for you.

这是个非常有勇气的提问，尤其是你丈夫在你自己的职场里问出来。

Very courageous question, especially for your husband to ask it in your own workplace.

这需要勇气，对吧？

Takes courage, right?

就像凯文说的，一切都会好起来的。

As Kevin said, it will get better.

但在你慢慢好转的过程中，我想让你明白，你的孩子，即使让你们经历这么激烈的冲突，也是他给你的一份礼物。

But while you're in the process of getting better, I want you to understand that your child, even taking you all through this level of conflict is a gift that he's giving you.

因为很多时候，我们在养育孩子时真正争吵的并不是孩子本身。

Because oftentimes the real argument that we have when we're raising children is not about the child.

其实是两种童年的碰撞，你的童年和他的童年。

It's really about two childhoods colliding, your childhood and his childhood.

我们每个人走进婚姻时，都带着自己原生家庭的那套剧本，知道事情应该怎么做。

We all walk into marriage carrying our own script from our own family of origin and how things should be done.

我们要么照着演，要么反着来，所以我们其实不是在争论或商量睡觉时间怎么安排。

And we either walk in enacting it or we walk in rebelling And against so we're not really fighting or navigating bedtime strategies.

我们真正对抗的是两段历史。

We're really fighting against two histories.

说白了，我们是在治愈自己的伤口。

And to say it plainly, we're parenting our own wounds.

我希望你们把这看作一份礼物，因为它能让你们好好聊聊各自的历史，聊聊你们带进婚姻的那些东西，现在因为这个小生命的出现，它们以不同的方式显现出来了。

I want you all to see this as a gift because it's going to allow you to talk through some of your histories and some of your stuff that you're bringing into the marriage that is now showing up differently because now this human is involved.

哦，这个回答真好。

Oh, that was a good answer.

我也感受到了。

I felt that one too.

我真的感受到了。

I really felt that one.

我能提一个建议吗？几年前我爸爸跟我说过一件事，我特别喜欢，就是他们不是决定谁做什么，而是给自己起了个头衔。

Can I offer one thing that I've Yes, One thing that I heard from my dad a few years ago, and I really liked this, is they said, rather than kind of like decide who does what, they gave themselves titles?

比如一个家长是教育部长。

So one parent was secretary for education.

所以学校相关的事情都由他负责。

So they looked after everything to do with school.

另一个家长是财政部长。

And one parent was secretary of finance.

商务部长就是负责所有购物的人。

And secretary of commerce is the person who does all the shopping.

所以他们给自己起了这些头衔。

So they gave themselves these titles.

比如，如果有个人是‘睡觉时间部长’，然后你就决定，嘿，你知道吗？

So if there's kind of like a secretary of bedtimes and you just decide like, hey, you know what?

我就是睡觉时间部长。

I'm secretary of bedtimes.

在这件事上，我是关键决策者。

I'm the kind of key decision maker as it comes to this.

我觉得，即使是这种说法，也会让事情变得有点好玩，而且能减轻一些压力，但它确实在家庭的不同方面明确了各自的角色和责任。

And I think, like, even even that language, it just makes it a little bit playful and it kinda takes this thing out of it a little bit, but it does provide, like, this distinct kind of roles and responsibilities across different aspects of the household.

马上采用。

Co opting immediately.

对，这就是我们要做的。

Co that that is that's what we're doing.

这就是我们今晚要做的。

That's what we're doing tonight.

当然。

Absolutely.

说得不错。

That was good.

好的。

Alright.

我们来回顾一下刚才聊的内容。

Let's recap what we talked about.

如今当爸爸，感受可能挺复杂的。

Being a dad today can be a bit of a mixed bag.

越来越多的丈夫和父亲比以往任何时候都更愿意参与家庭生活和照顾孩子。

An increasing number of husbands and fathers enjoy being more involved in the home and in child care than ever before.

这很好，但这些角色也可能特别让人感到孤立，而且当身边缺少榜样、缺乏现成的社区支持来分担这些责任时，管理起来就更难了。

That's great, but those roles can also be particularly isolating and hard to manage when you have fewer role models to look to and less built in community around the burden of those responsibilities.

我们越是继续讨论这些动态以及我们想要改变它们的愿望，对大家就越好。

The more we continue to talk about these dynamics and our desire for them to change, the better off we'll all be.

所以，如果你渴望真诚的联系，或者想扩展自己的情感表达，要知道你绝对不是唯一有这种感觉的爸爸。

So if you're feeling starved for authentic connection or seeking to expand your emotional vocabulary, know that you are not the only dad by far.

你的同类就在那里，他们也想和你聊聊。

Your people are out there, and they wanna talk to you too.

从哪里开始呢？

One place to start?

凯文通过他的线上社区“现代父亲”在多个城市组织了线下见面会。

Kevin created IRL meetup groups in a bunch of different cities through his online community, Modern Fatherhood.

最后，记得要一天一天地过。

Finally, remember to take each day at a time.

我们每个人都会把自己过去的经历、家庭背景、父母和父亲的影响，带入到自己的育儿方式中。

We all bring our own scripts from our past, our families, our parents, our dads, into our own parenting styles.

方式。

Styles.

然后我们要么照着做，要么反着来。

And then we either enact them or push against them.

所以，你今天花时间思考要走哪条路，这真的很棒。

So good on you for taking the time to have a think today about which path you're taking.

以上是Life Kit记者Andy Tegel与David Defoe和Kevin Maguire的对话。

That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tegel talking with David Defoe and Kevin Maguire.

父亲节快乐。

Happy Father's Day.

特别感谢爸爸们Rob Terron、Andres Alva Cardenas和Josh Babin为这个故事贡献了他们的想法和问题。

And special thanks to dads Rob Terron, Andres Alva Cardenas, and Josh Babin for contributing their thoughts and questions to this story.

还要感谢所有给我们写信谈论心理负担的丈夫和爸爸们。

And to all the husbands and dads who wrote to us about the mental load.

我们也想听听你们对这期节目的看法。

We'd love to hear your thoughts on the episode too.

本期Life Kit节目由Sylvie Douglas制作。

This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas.

由Brent Bachman编辑。

It was edited by Brent Bachman.

我们的数字编辑是马利卡·加里布，视觉编辑是CJ·里卡兰。

Our digital editor is Malika Gareeb and our visuals editor is CJ Rikalan.

梅根·凯恩是我们的高级监督编辑，劳伦·冈萨雷斯是我们的执行制片人。

Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer.

我们的制作团队还包括克莱尔·玛丽·施奈德和玛格丽特·索里诺。

Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider and Margaret Sorino.

技术支持来自彼得·埃琳娜。

Engineering support comes from Peter Elena.

我是玛丽尔·塞加拉。

I'm Mariel Segarra.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.