除了健康星级评分和本·克罗的九条生活准则

ABC Listen，播客、广播、新闻、音乐，应有尽有。

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

你好。

Hi.

我是泰根·泰勒，这里是《生活事务》，您的故事将塑造全国性的对话。

I'm Tegan Taylor, and this is Life Matters, where your stories shape the national conversation.

你可能不认识本·克罗这个名字，但我敢打赌你会认出其中几个名字。

You might not recognise the name Ben Crowe, but I bet you'll recognise a couple of these names.

阿什·巴蒂、安德烈·阿加西、斯蒂芬·吉尔摩、丹尼尔·里卡多。

Ash Barty, Andre Agassi, Steph Gilmore, Daniel Ricciardo.

多年来，他们都曾是本作为全球最受欢迎的心态教练之一的客户。

They have all been Ben's clients over the years in his work as one of the most in demand mindset coaches in the world.

那么，这些精英体育教练的智慧能否转化到我们这些普通人的日常生活中呢？

So does any of that elite sports coaching wisdom translate to us plebs going about our everyday life?

嗯，实际上，是的。

Well, yes, actually.

在接下来的二十分钟里，你将听到本·克劳的分享。

You'll hear how from Ben Crowe in the next twenty minutes.

此外，人脸识别技术正从我们的手机中溢出，现在几乎无处不在。

Also ahead, facial recognition technology is spilling out of our phones to, well, almost everywhere now.

那么，当我们知道自己被监视时，我们的行为会有多大不同？

So how differently do we act when we know we're being watched?

以上内容即将在澳大利亚广播公司国家电台播出。

It's all coming up here on ABC Radio National.

但首先，我去超市购物时常常是抱着最好的意图开始的。

But first, my trips to the supermarket often start with the best of intentions.

在最初的几个货架通道，我会翻看商品包装。

For the first few aisles, I'm turning packages over.

我会检查蛋白质、糖分等含量。

I'm checking grams of protein and sugar and whatnot.

但随着我脑海中开始累计账单金额，并想起待办清单上的其他任务，最终我只会伸手拿那些‘最不糟糕’的商品，并希望一切都能凑合过去。

But as my mental checkout starts racking up the bill and I remember the rest of the jobs on my to do list, I just end up reaching for the least worst items and hoping it all comes out in the wash.

多年来，一直有尝试帮助你在购物车里放入更健康的选择。

And there have been attempts at helping you fill your trolley with healthier options over the years.

带有健康星级评分的零星产品就是这方面最大的例子之一。

The smattering of products with a health star rating is one of the biggest examples of this.

但'零星'是这里的关键词，因为到目前为止，只有39%的产品显示了健康星级评分。

But smattering is the keyword here because up until now, only 39% of products display a health star rating.

制造商可以自行选择在哪些产品上贴上星级标签。

Manufacturers can pick and choose which products they put the star on.

一包鸡肉味薯片只能得到一颗星？

A packet of chicken flavored chips is only gonna earn one star?

哎呀。

Yikes.

我们就不把这个印在包装上了。

We'll leave that off the packaging.

随着政府计划强制推行评级体系，这一切都将改变，无论产品看起来是好是坏。

That all looks set to change as our government moves to make the rating system mandatory, no matter how good or bad something looks.

尽管许多人认为这是朝着正确方向迈出的一步，但也有人认为这还不够彻底。

And while many say it's a step in the right direction, some argue it doesn't go far enough.

那么它真的能帮助到你吗？

So will it actually help you?

今天我邀请了两位在营养标签领域投入时间比我们所有人加起来都多的人。

And I'm with two people who've spent more time thinking about nutrition labeling than possibly all of us combined.

克莱尔·柯林斯，纽卡斯尔大学营养与饮食学教授，以及乔治全球健康研究所食品治理项目负责人亚历山德拉·琼斯副教授。

Claire Collins, laureate professor in nutrition and dietetics at the University of Newcastle, and associate professor Alexandra Jones, who's program lead in food governance at the George Institute for Global Health.

事实上，亚历山德拉的博士研究正是围绕澳大利亚的健康星级评级系统和营养标签展开的。

In fact, Alexandra's PhD was all about Australia's health star rating system and nutrition labeling.

亚历山德拉，我先从你开始问吧。

Alexandra, I might start with you.

如果我现在购物车里只选四星或五星的产品，这就能保证对我健康有益吗？

If I currently just fill my trolley with four or five star items, is that a guarantee that that's good for me?

非常好的问题。

Very good question.

我认为健康星级评分试图总结食品背面的营养成分表，并在正面给出一个从半星到五星级的简单评分，引导你选择更健康的食物。

I think the health star rating, you know, it is an attempt to summarize the nutrition panel on the back of food and spit out an an easy rating on the front from half to five stars and point you in the direction of healthier foods.

不过，我要说的是，千万别忘了，我们超市里最健康的食物大多并没有包装。

I mean, to your point though, I would say it's important not to forget that most of the healthiest foods in our supermarket don't come in packages.

它们是新鲜的水果和蔬菜，通常放在超市的外围，你应该先把这些东西装满购物车，然后再在货架上使用健康星级评分来选择。

They are fresh fruit and vegetables and the things on the outside of the supermarket, and it's really those that you should be filling your trolley up first and then using the Health Star when you come down the aisle.

但那些四星和五星的健康星级产品，在它们各自的类别中应该是更好的选择。

But those four and five star Health Star products should be better choices in their category.

是的。

Yes.

在它们各自的类别中。

In their category.

没错。

Right.

我们稍后会深入探讨其中的一些细微差别。

We'll get into some of that nuance in a minute.

但首先，上周五澳大利亚和新西兰的食品部长们举行了一次重要会议。

But first, there's there was an important meeting on Friday between food ministers in Australia and New Zealand.

那里发生的主要情况是什么？

What's the sort of top line of what happened there?

上周五，来自各州、领地以及澳大利亚和新西兰两国的食品部长——基本上是卫生部长和农业部长——聚集在一起，就健康星级评分是否应强制实施进行投票表决。

So on Friday, food ministers who are basically health ministers and agriculture ministers from around the states and territories and and both Australia and New Zealand came together to vote on a resolution of whether the Health Star should be mandated.

你知道，这项政策我们已经实行了超过十二年，但一直是自愿形式。

You know, this is a policy we've had for over twelve years, but in a voluntary form.

而我们看到的是，这项政策的采纳和执行情况确实不尽如人意。

And what we've seen is really suboptimal kind of uptake and performance of that policy.

因此，部长们在周五投票决定强制实施该政策。

And so on Friday, ministers voted to mandate it.

接下来，食品标准局仍需起草相关立法。

Now what will happen is the Food Standards Agency still have to draft the legislation.

所以遗憾的是，这个过程会比我们许多人期望的要慢。

So unfortunately, that's a slower process than many of us would like.

但现实是，强制性的健康星级标识应该出现在你超市里所有商品的包装上。

But the reality is that mandatory health stars should be coming to all packages in your supermarket.

这件事我已经听人谈论好几年了，但距离实现 still 还有一年左右的时间。

This is something I've heard talked about for several years now, and it's still a year or so away.

这是一个相当漫长的过程。

It's a pretty long process.

这确实是个漫长的过程，当食品行业参与政策制定时，就会出现这种情况。

It is a long process, and that's what happens when the food industry is part of policy making.

我们不仅在澳大利亚的营养标签上看到过这种情况，许多我们试图解决澳大利亚饮食问题的政策也都如此。

And we've seen that not just in nutrition labeling in Australia, but a lot of the policies we've had to try and address Australia's diet.

你知道，与其他领域不同，比如烟草控制政策，那里行业绝对不参与政策制定，但在食品领域却不一样，而现实是，这确实拖慢了我们的进度。

You know, unlike some other areas, for example, tobacco control policy where where the industry is definitely not part of policy making, it's been different in food, and the reality is that that's sort of held us back.

克莱尔，你也在这里和我一起。

Claire, you're also here with me.

你是纽卡斯尔大学营养与饮食学的教授。

You're a laureate professor in nutrition and dietetics at the University of Newcastle.

人们只是在商店里尽力做出最佳选择。

People are just out there trying to make the best choice at the shops.

自愿性体系有用吗？

Has the voluntary system been useful?

它可能是有用的，至少为部分产品提供了参考。

It's probably been useful in that it has at least provided some point of products.

但是，当只有不到三分之一的产品实际贴有星级标签时，它并没有让选择变得像原本可能的那样容易。

But when only, you know, less than a third of products have actually got the stars on it, it's not it's not really making it as easy as it could.

正如亚历山德拉所说，让人们认识到水果和蔬菜没有任何星级标识，但它们实际上都是五星级以上的健康食品，这一点非常重要。

And as Alexandra said, it's really important for people to realize that fruit and vegetables don't have any stars on them, but they're all five plus stars.

所以我认为强制实施食品标签制度是非常积极的消息，至少这是一个开端。

So I think it's really positive news that there will be mandatory food labeling, and at least it's a start.

但这同时也提供了围绕标签开展全面教育的机会，这样当人们去购物时，就能以最快的速度在超市里选购到最健康的商品篮。

But it's then provides the opportunity to have a comprehensive education piece around it so that when people do get to the shops, they're able to get through that supermarket as fast as possible with the healthiest basket possible.

如果你是教育方案的设计者，你会如何进行这种教育呢？

What would that education look like if you were the one designing it?

嗯，我认为你肯定会在学校内纳入强有力的教育环节，这样孩子们就能理解星级评分的含义，并且每个人都知道蔬菜和水果是五星级的。

Well, I think you would definitely include a strong education component within schools so that kids understand what the stars mean and that everybody knows that, you know, veggies and fruit are five stars.

我可能会把星级评分扩展到蔬菜和水果上，或者以某种方式传达这个信息。

I'd probably extend the stars onto vegetable and and fruit or somehow convey that message.

我认为有可能的是，一旦我们建立了这个系统，我们可能会对一些四星级但仍属于高度加工食品的警告信息进行一些调整，因为我认为这是另一个让人们看到某些产品时感到困惑的因素。

I think it's possible that, you know, once we get the system, we might include some tweaks around warnings of some foods that might have four stars, but are still very, very processed, because I think that is another component that confuses people when they see some products.

他们会想，那种颜色鲜艳得不可思议的麦片怎么可能获得那么多颗星呢？

They go, how can that cereal that's all those incredible bright colors possibly get that many stars?

所以，希望这部分内容能作为立法的一部分被纳入。

So, hopefully, as part of the legislation, that part will come in it.

但是，我们需要在它面向全体公众、成为强制性措施并全面推行后，开展一场全国性的宣传活动，然后还需要有针对性的教育。

But, you know, we need a national campaign once it's for the whole public, once it's it's mandatory, and once it's rolled out, and then we need that targeted education.

一旦成为强制性措施，它就会融入所有通用的营养教育中，无论是在社区卫生中心、学校，还是针对特定人群，比如孕妇。

Once it is mandatory, it will come into all that generic nutrition education, whether that's in a community health center, at a school or for a specific population group, you know, like pregnant women, for example.

克莱尔，我们是否了解在现行形式下，人们对健康星级评级系统有多关注？

Claire, do we know how much attention people pay to the Health Star system in its current form?

实际上，我也不太确定。

Actually, I'm not really sure.

亚历山德拉可能知道这个，但我知道已有的研究表明，人们知道这个系统确实有含义，但仍然感到困惑，特别是当他们看到某些产品时，会想，就像我刚才说的，那种产品怎么可能有四颗星，因为我不会给我的孩子买那种含糖的早餐麦片。

Alexandra Alexandra might know that, but I know that the studies that have been done have shown that people know that it does mean something, but that it's still confusing, especially when they see products where they think how how, as I said, how could that possibly have four stars, because I wouldn't buy that sugary cereal breakfast cereal for my kids.

我认为人们不一定理解每个类别内的评级是独立的，我觉得这让人困惑。

I don't think people necessarily understand that each category, it's within that category, and I think that's confusing.

所以，如果我看到早餐麦片、麦片棒和包装酱料，五星评级并不意味着在所有类别中都代表同样的东西。

So if I see breakfast cereals, and then muesli bars, and then packet sauces, that it doesn't mean that five stars doesn't mean the same thing across all categories.

亚历山德拉？

Alexandra?

是的。

Yeah.

关于克莱尔提到的，目前星级系统的运作方式，我认为人们确实表示他们喜欢这个系统，理解它，并且能在我们的环境中使用它。

To to Claire's point, the the way that stars work currently, I mean, I think people do say they they like them, they understand them, and they can use them in our, you know, in our world.

我们非常习惯于使用星级评分，无论是电影还是优步司机。

We're very used to using star ratings, whether it's movies, Uber drivers.

你知道，我们天生就明白星级评分是如何运作的。

You know, we inherently know how a star rating works.

这是该系统的优势之一。

That's one of the benefits of the system.

在不同类别之间如何使用它，确实存在一些困惑。

There is has been confusion a little around how to use it between categories.

我认为这需要通过一场宣传活动来解决。

I think that needs to be addressed in a campaign.

总的来说，我认为许多食品，比如罐装水果和蔬菜这类东西，会获得较高的评级。

I would say that overall, many foods, you know, fruit and veg in tins, things like that will get a high rating.

几乎所有的糖果类食品评级都非常低。

Nearly all confectionery gets a very low rating.

所以它确实能在某种程度上区分整个食品供应体系。

So it does actually perform to sort of discriminate across the food supply.

但我们确实向人们传达的信息是，在去商店之前，先列好自己的购物清单。

But the message that we do say to people is that, you know, write your own shopping list before you turn up at the shops.

然后当你在货架前挑选时，比如选花生酱或酸奶的时候，就可以利用健康星级评分来选择该食品中更健康的选项。

Then when you're looking at a shelf, you know, when you're picking your peanut butter, when you're picking your yogurt, use the health star rating to choose a better option of that food.

您正在收听的是澳大利亚广播公司全国广播电台的《生活事务》节目。

You are listening to Life Matters here on ABC Radio National.

我是泰根·泰勒，正在与乔治全球健康研究所的副教授亚历山德拉·琼斯以及纽卡斯尔大学营养与饮食学桂冠教授克莱尔·柯林斯交谈，讨论澳大利亚和新西兰的食品部长们已召开会议并决定支持健康星级评分系统一事。

I'm Tegan Taylor chatting with associate professor Alexandra Jones from the George Institute for Global Health and Claire Collins, laureate professor in nutrition and dietetics at the University of Newcastle about the fact that Australia and New Zealand's food ministers have met to say, yes.

我们将在不久的将来，很可能强制要求在食品标签上标注健康星级评分系统。

We're gonna make well, we're probably gonna make Health Star rating systems mandatory on labeling in the near future.

我在问你，你是如何决定购物车里放什么的，是健康因素在驱动你，还是成本因素在驱动你。

And I'm asking you how you choose how you choose what goes in your shopping trolley, whether it's it's health that's driving you, whether it's cost that's driving you.

有时这两者感觉是相互排斥的。

Sometimes those things feel mutually exclusive.

你可以发短信到0418226576联系我。

You can send me a text on 0418226576.

马修说，新鲜，新鲜，新鲜。

Matthew says, fresh, fresh, fresh.

我总是尽可能多地购买新鲜食物。

I always focus on getting as much fresh food as possible.

我至少有一半的食物是在超市以外的地方购买的。

I buy at least half of my food outside of a supermarket.

实际上，我在超市只买洗涤剂、清洁用品、卫生纸这类东西。

And really, the only things I do buy at the supermarket, detergent, cleaning products, toilet paper, and so on.

如果我买的是食品，我会认为它可能不太健康。

If I buy food, I assume it's probably not so good.

安德鲁说，一个典型超市里，有半条货架的商品被划为所谓的'健康食品'，那剩下的部分又算什么呢？

Andrew says, with half an aisle of a typical supermarket considered, in inverted commas, health food, what does that make the rest of the supermarket?

另一个人表示，这仍然把责任推给了消费者。

And another person saying, this still puts the onus on the consumer.

为什么不考虑征收糖税，并向制造商施压呢？

How about a sugar tax and pressure on manufacturers?

亚历山德拉。

Alexandra.

是的。

Yeah.

所以标签机制最棒的一点是，它不仅仅影响消费者。

So one of the best things about how labels work are that it doesn't just impact on consumers.

如果一个有动力的消费者，或者像马修那样的人，用星级来选择更好的产品，这当然很好。

So it's it's great if a motivated consumer or someone like Matthew there, you know, uses the star to pick better choices.

但他们通常已经是最有动力的消费者了。

They're they're often the most motivated consumers already.

但食品标签真正发挥作用的地方，在于它能激励食品公司整体提升产品品质。

But where food labeling actually works best is if it incentivizes food companies to improve the quality of their products overall.

例如，他们会减少产品中的盐和糖，以获得更高的星级评分。

So for example, they cut salt and sugar out of their product to get a higher star.

如果他们这么做，这显然对所有人都有益，包括那些不看标签的人。

If they do this, this obviously benefits everyone, including people who don't read labels.

而这些人往往饮食最不健康。

They're often the people with the poorest diet.

所以这是要说的第一点。

So that's one thing to say.

第二点涉及到我们需要的其他政策，很高兴COLA支持征收糖税。

The second touches on the other policies we need, and it's great that this COLA is in favor of a sugar tax.

全球有超过50个国家，我想大概在50到100个之间，已经实行了糖税，所以这已经算不上什么激进的提议了。

More than 50 I think somewhere between 50 and a 100 countries worldwide have a sugar tax, so it's hardly a radical proposal anymore.

但我们确实知道，我们需要调整食品价格，让不健康食品更贵，健康食品更便宜。

But we do know that we do need to implement changes to the price of foods to make less healthy foods more expensive, more healthy foods cheaper.

所有这些政策加在一起，才能真正改变澳大利亚的饮食状况。

All of these policies together is what's gonna shift the dial on diet in Australia.

答案不会只是一个单一的标签。

It's not going to be a single label that's that's the answer.

我想说明一下，我们收到了澳大利亚食品杂货委员会营养与监管主任邓肯·克雷格博士的一份声明，他表示与行业合作是制定有效法规的重要组成部分。

I will say we have a statement from the Australian Food and Grocery Council director of nutrition and regulation, doctor Duncan Craig, who says collaboration with industry is an important part of developing effective regulation.

食品制造商负责对标签和包装进行更改，他们的意见有助于确保政策能够有效实施。

Food manufacturers are responsible for applying changes to labeling and packaging, and their input helps ensure policy can be implemented effectively.

合作能带来归属感、共同的责任感，最终实现持久的成果。

Collaboration creates ownership, shared accountability, and ultimately outcomes that endure.

并且它进一步指出，如果健康之星评级转为强制性模式，清晰且分阶段的过渡至关重要。

And it goes on to say, if Health Star ratings move to a mandatory model, a clear and phased transition will be essential.

强制要求包装正面标识会带来包装和供应链方面的影响，适当的实施时间将有助于顺利过渡。

Mandating front of pack labeling has packaging and supply chain implications and appropriate implementation time will support a smooth transition.

我们实际上会将澳大利亚食品与杂货委员会的完整声明发布在《生命之道》网站上。

We'll actually put the full statement from the Australian Food and Grocery Council on the Life Matters website.

但是，克莱尔，我很想和你聊聊，对许多澳大利亚人来说，这不仅仅是简单地购买健康食品的问题。

But, Claire, I'd love to talk to you about the fact that it's not just a question of, like, just buy healthy food for many Australians.

成本、健康、理解营养成分表所传达的信息——这些对所有澳大利亚人来说并不是公平的。

This sense that cost, health, understanding what what nutritional panels are saying, it's not an even playing field for all Australians.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且，你知道，许多澳大利亚人仍然面临着食物保障问题。

And, you know, many Australians still experience food insecurity.

根据最新的全国营养调查，也就是2023年的数据——这份数据去年年底才发布——显示在我们国家，有130万个家庭在上个月经历了某种形式的食物保障问题。

In the latest national nutrition survey, the 2023 data, which was only released at the end of last year, that showed that in our country, we've got 1,300,000 households who in the previous month had experienced some type of, you know, insecurity in food.

所以这真的很可悲。

So that's that's really tragic.

我的意思是，我们正在通过纽卡斯尔大学的网站‘没钱没时间’以一种微小的方式支持那些试图省钱的人，我们在那里为食谱计算成本。

I mean, in a small way, we're trying to support people who are trying to save money with our University of Newcastle website, no money, no time, where we cost out the recipes.

我们让它们变得容易准备。

We make them easy to easy to prepare.

但上周的会议也传来了一小则好消息，那就是在偏远社区，你知道的，食物需要卡车运输，比如从阿德莱德一直运到北领地，他们已经将基本食材的补贴范围扩大，现在覆盖了所有偏远地区的商店。

But there was one small piece of good news also that came out of the meetings last week, and that was that, in remote communities, you know, where the food's gotta be trucked, you know, from maybe from Adelaide all the way up to the Northern Territory, they have expanded the subsidisation of basic ingredients to now cover all remote stores.

这原本只是一个试点项目，大约涉及30家商店，而且效果非常好。

It had been a pilot of, you know, say say roughly 30 stores, and it went so so well.

而且这并没有影响，你知道的，补贴并没有影响商店的利润，也没有影响店主的收入。

And it didn't affect, you know, like, the subsidisation did not affect the money the stores were making the profit from store owners.

所以，这是目前在全国范围内为最弱势群体所做的一件积极的事情，你知道，那些整个社区只有一家商店，且主要是原住民社区的地方。向所有为此付出努力的人表示祝贺。

So that's one positive thing that's being done nationally now for people who are the most vulnerable, you know, where there is only one store in the whole whole community and predominantly indigenous communities, and congratulations to everyone who's done that work.

但正如亚历山德拉提到的，我们现在发现，写购物清单是一个非常非常有效的工具。

But one of the things that we find now as Alexandra mentioned, writing a shopping list is a really, really powerful tool.

但我还要说，如果你大致知道那周要做的三顿饭，并且每样都做双份，这样就能吃两个晚上，那么你就有了食材。家庭告诉我们，比做饭更难的其实是决定晚餐吃什么，而这可能正是促使人们点外卖的原因。

But I would also argue that if you have roughly know three of the meals you're gonna make that week, and you do them double batch so they last for two nights, and you know then you've got the ingredients, families tell us that harder than the cooking is actually even deciding what's for dinner, and that's might what push people to, you know, dial up a home home delivery meal.

所以，你知道，有一位来电者提到，只有新鲜蔬菜之类的东西。

So, you know and, you know, one of the callers mentioned that only fresh vegetables and things like that.

罐装和冷冻食品，通常工厂就设在农场附近。

Canned and frozen, when they're usually, the factories are right near the farms.

所以你买到的冷冻和罐装食品，在包装时都是新鲜的。

So what you buy as frozen and canned is fresh when it in when it into those packages.

这是另一种降低成本和让快速准备健康餐食变得更容易一点的方法。

So that's another way of lowering the cost and making it a little bit easier to prepare a healthy meal fast.

那么，克莱尔，除了政策层面即将生效的强制性健康星级评级，你所属的澳大利亚营养师协会正在呼吁制定一个更宏大、更广泛的营养战略。

So, Claire, alongside what's happening in the policy side of things with the mandatory health star rating may be coming into effect soon, Dietitians Australia, which you're affiliated with, is calling for a bigger, broader nutrition strategy.

就像，这不能是我们唯一的应对策略。

Like, this can't be the only arrow in our quiver.

简单来说，我知道这份战略大概有12到13个要点，但总体上看，这个营养战略是什么样的？

Briefly, I know there's, like, 12 or 13 points to this, but broadly, what does this nutrition strategy look like?

我们确实需要资源充足、协调一致、基于证据的政策行动，来解决诸如食品不安全、税收问题以及各阶层的教育问题。

Well, we really need, like, well resourced, coordinated, evidence based policy action that addresses things like food insecurity, the taxation, the education across across all strata.

我们确实有国家营养文件摆在那里，但我想最令人沮丧的是，无论是国家营养战略还是国家肥胖战略，当它只是又一个被束之高阁、从未真正落实的指导文件时，这确实非常令人沮丧。

And we have the national, the national nutrition document sitting there, but I think what's most frustrating for all of us, whether we're talking about the national nutrition strategy or the national obesity strategy, it becomes very frustrating when it's just yet another signposted document that's sitting in a folder and is never actually actioned.

所以我们确实需要解决健康公平、环境可持续性等问题，并且需要对这些政策进行监测和评估。

So we really do need to address, you know, like health, equity, environmental sustainability, and then it needs to be monitored and evaluating.

这些政策行动如果制定出来，它们真的有效吗？

Are these policy actions, if created, are they actually working?

食物不仅影响你的健康，还决定了你在学校能否好好学习。

Like, food is the thing that drives not just your health, it drives whether or not you can learn well when you're at school.

它进而影响着你的心理健康。

It then drives your mental well-being.

它通过孕产妇营养为下一代的成长提供动力。

It fuels the growth of the next generation, you know, through maternal nutrition.

所以，它没有成为核心焦点，这实在说不通。

So it just doesn't make sense why it's not front and center.

因此，我认为我们可以把健康星级评定看作一次胜利，一次在那方面的胜利，并期待国家营养战略的其余部分真正发挥作用，得到规划、预算和实施。

So I think we'll take this Health Stars as a win, you know, as a win on that, and let's see the rest of the national nutrition strategy actually come to play and be be planned out and budgeted and implemented.

Alexandra，你如何看待健康星级评定在澳大利亚更广泛的营养策略中所扮演的角色？

Alexandra, how do you see the Health Star rating fitting into this broader approach to nutrition in Australia?

我认为这有点像吸烟问题，你知道我们当时做了包装改革，但澳大利亚拥有全球最低吸烟率的原因绝对不仅仅是包装改革。

I think it's a little bit like when you think of smoking, and you know that we did the packaging there, but it's definitely not just the packaging that's the reason that Australia has some of the lowest smoking rates in the world.

关键在于，如果你过去三十年在澳大利亚长大，你从未见过任何香烟广告。

It's the fact that if you've grown up in Australia in the last thirty years, you've never seen an advertisement for cigarettes.

关键在于价格不同，而且你不能在某些地方吸烟。

It's the fact that the price is different, that you can't smoke in certain places.

我们知道所有这些杠杆都存在于食品领域，但我们几乎还没有动用它们。

And we know that all of these levers exist for food, but we've barely touched them yet.

我们一直困在这些自愿性措施里，你知道，我想到邓肯的那番话，还有食品杂货理事会要求更多时间。

And we have been stuck in these voluntary things, which, you know, I'm thinking to that statement by Duncan and asking, you know, the Food and Grocery Council asking for more time.

他们已经拥有十二年了。

They've had twelve years.

在这段时间里，他们在包装上添加了许多其他标签——那些能很好推销产品的标签，却选择不提供健康信息。

And in that time, they've put on plenty of other labels onto their packages, the ones that market their products well, and they've chosen not to put on health information.

所以，你知道，周五对我来说真的很鼓舞人心，健康星级评分可能不是完美的政策，但这是我们首次看到这个国家的部长们说‘不’了。

And so, you know, we really it's it's really encouraging on Friday to me that Health Stars might not be the perfect policy, but for the first time, we've actually seen ministers in this country saying, no.

是时候采取强制性措施，将健康置于利润之上了。

It's time to do something mandatory to put health before profits.

这就是为什么我感到鼓舞，并希望这是一个开端，能推动我们所需的其他更强有力的政策。

And that's why I'm encouraged and I hope that it's the start of some momentum to get some of those other stronger policies we need.

一位技术专家说，我是一名医生，住在一个肥胖已成为新常态的乡镇。

One tech says, I'm a doctor, and I live in a regional town where obesity is the new norm.

看到人们经常往超市购物车里放的东西，我感到难以置信。

Seeing what people put in their supermarket trolleys regularly leaves me in disbelief.

就好像人们从未真正了解过天然食物是什么样子。

It's as if people have never learned what real food actually looks like.

有人说，不管有没有星级，我们需要的是教育。

They say this says this person says, stars or not, education is what we need.

莱亚发来短信说，一位老医生曾经告诉我，能长出来的食物就吃。

And Leah has texted in to say, an old doctor once told me, if it grows, eat it.

长不出来的就别吃。

If it doesn't grow, don't eat it.

如果是包装好的食物，只吃一点点。

If it comes in a wrapper, only have a little bit.

克莱尔，当人们试图在这个混乱的食品环境中做出明智选择时，还能有哪些实用的准则可以遵循呢？

Claire, what other rules of thumb can people be taking with them when they're trying to make good choices in this really muddy food landscape that we live in?

我喜欢这些建议，但我通常给人们的其中一个实用建议是：走进超市后，先去最健康的部分——蔬菜和水果区，直到你的购物车再也装不下为止。

Well, I like all of those advice, but one of the really practical ones that I usually give people is that, you you walk into the supermarket in the healthiest section of the supermarket, the vegetables and fruit, so don't leave that section till you can't see the bottom of your bottom of your trolley.

每周都尝试买一种之前没买过的蔬菜或水果。

And every week, try and put a different one of those vegetables or fruit that hasn't had an opportunity.

在你的购物车里放上几周，因为我们知道正是这些基本食物的多样性。

Be in your trolley for a couple of weeks because we know that it is the variety of those basic foods.

但我认为另一个关键点确实是规划好每餐饭。

But I think the other key thing is really is planning the meals.

如果你有幸住在有蔬菜水果合作社或送货上门服务的区域，那确实会有帮助。

It does help if you're lucky enough to live in an area where there's a a vegetable and fruit, you know, cooperative or a home delivery.

现在有不少这类项目，或者你可以买到农场精选的蔬菜箱。

There's a quite a number of those programs, or you can get, you know, a box of the farmer's pick.

这些方法确实有帮助，因为东西已经送到你家门口了，然后你就得把它们用完。

Those things do help because they've arrived at your door, and then you've gotta use them up.

但我觉得，如果不先认识到这130万户家庭甚至没有条件这样思考，连谈论这个话题都很困难。

But I think it's hard to even talk about that without recognising this 1,300,000 households who don't even have the luxury of thinking like that.

他们依赖食物银行，而作为食物银行，他们又依赖食物银行里现有的食物。

They're reliant on food banks, and then as a food bank, they're reliant on the food that's in the food bank.

所以选择几乎是一种奢侈。

So choice is almost a lux a luxury.

但总的来说，我想说，这是一个很好的机会，让营养成为我们都在讨论的话题，我完全同意亚历山德里亚的观点。

But all around, I would say, you know, this is a welcome opportunity to make nutrition a topic that we're all talking about, and I absolutely agree with Alexandria.

食品行业已经有十二年的时间来更努力地解决这个问题，所以他们现在真的不应该说，哦，我们时间不够。

The food industry have had twelve years to be working harder on this, and so they they shouldn't now really be saying, oh, we haven't had enough time.

这是我们每天实际上要做三到五次的选择。

It's something it's a choice that we literally make three to five times a day.

亚历山德拉·克莱尔，非常感谢两位今天参与我们的节目。

Alexandra Clare, thank you both so much for joining me.

Alexandra Jones副教授是乔治全球健康研究院食品治理项目的负责人，Clare Collins是纽卡斯尔大学营养与饮食学领域的桂冠教授。

Associate professor Alexandra Jones is the program lead in food governance at the George Institute for Global Health, and Clare Collins is a laureate professor in nutrition and dietetics at the University of Newcastle.

短信平台上有个建议，我们能否像补贴油气和煤炭行业那样，为偏远地区的超市提供生鲜果蔬补贴？

One suggestion on the text line, could we subsidize fresh fruit and vegetables to remote super supermarkets like the gas and coal industries are subsidized?

Tracy提到，人们已经忘记了我们为何要进食。

And Tracy says, people have forgotten why we eat.

生活的压力已将进食变成了一种消遣活动。

The pressures of life have turned eating into a recreational activity.

这很复杂，但教育是关键。

It's complex, but education is key.

好的，接下来在ABC国家广播电台的《生活事务》节目中，我将为一位非精英运动员——我猜是这样——提供来自阿什·巴蒂心态教练的一些表现提升建议。

Well, coming up next here on Life Matters on ABC Radio National, I'm gonna give you a non elite athlete, I'm assuming, some performance tips from Ash Barty's mindset coach.

如果你想提升体能或变得更强壮，可能会考虑找一位私人教练。

If you wanted to improve your fitness or get a bit stronger, you might think about finding a personal trainer.

但如果是你的大脑阻碍你达到最佳状态，你该向谁求助呢？

But when it's your brain that's stopping you from reaching the top of your game, who do you turn to?

你有没有考虑过请一位心态教练？

Have you ever considered a mindset coach?

本·克罗是全球最受欢迎的专业导师和领导力教练之一。

Ben Crowe is one of the most in demand professional mentors and leadership coaches in the world.

在多年与阿什·巴蒂、安德烈·阿加西、斯蒂芬·吉尔摩、丹尼尔·里卡多等精英运动员合作后，他将自己的智慧浓缩成了一本书。

And after years of working with elite athletes like Ash Barty, Andre Agassi, Steph Gilmore, Daniel Ricciardo, he has distilled his wisdom into a book.

这本书名为《光之所在》，总结了九个视角转变，这些转变帮助了他那些家喻户晓的客户重新定义成功，并取得了非凡的成就。

It's called Where the Light Gets In, and it summarizes the nine perspective shifts that have helped those household names among his clients redefine success and achieve incredible success.

那么，我们能从体育传奇人物和科技企业家身上学到什么，来切实帮助你我改善日常生活呢？

So what can we learn from sporting legends and tech entrepreneurs that could actually help you and me in our everyday lives?

当心态教练自己遇到瓶颈时，又会向谁寻求建议呢？

And where does a mindset coach look for advice when he gets stuck?

本·克罗，欢迎来到《生活要事》节目。

Ben Crowe, welcome to Life Matters.

谢谢你，泰根。

Thank you, Tegan.

顺便说一句，我也很喜欢你们节目的名字。

Love the name of your show too, by the way.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我认为，生命确实很重要。

Life does matter, I I think.

本，一个人如何成为一名心态教练？

Ben, how does one become a mindset coach?

好问题。

Good question.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得更多是机缘巧合进入这一行的。

I think I fell into it more than anything else.

我父亲在我很小的时候就去世了。

I my dad passed away when I was pretty young.

我觉得我一直都有一种无法释怀的困惑，就是想弄明白为什么有些人能把生活过得很好，而另一些人却不行。

I reckon I've always had this itch that I couldn't scratch just trying to work out how some people could navigate life pretty well and and others couldn't.

然后我学习了人类学，你知道的，就是研究人类和人类行为的学科，还有哲学，也就是研究智慧的学科。

And and then I studied anthropology, you know, the study of humans and human behavior, and philosophy, the study of wisdom.

之后我加入了耐克公司，在那里，看着那些精英运动员被外在动机——比如金钱、名声、地位和认可——严重分散注意力，我的那种困惑感变得更加强烈了。

And then I joined Nike where that itch got even worse watching these elite athletes just get so distracted with, say, extrinsic motivations, money and fame and status and and recognition.

他们中有很多人戏剧性地从巅峰跌落，比如泰格·伍兹或者兰斯·阿姆斯特朗。

And a lot of them fell from grace pretty dramatically, whether it's, you know, Tiger Woods or Lance Armstrong.

我在耐克注意到，那些转向内在而非外在的运动员，比如安德烈·阿加西就是一个很好的案例研究。

And I noticed at Nike that athletes that went internal, not external, and, you know, Andre Agassi is a great case study.

阿什·巴蒂也是一个很好的案例研究。

Ash Barty is a great case study.

他们能够将自己所做的事情与自己的身份区分开来，因此他们的身份认同不再仅仅是网球运动员，而更多地是关于作为一个人的本质，这让我非常着迷。

They're able to separate what they did from who they were, and so their identity became less about as a tennis player and more about a human being, and that fascinated me.

所以，这很可能更多是出于好奇心，而当我回到澳大利亚后，我就自然而然地投身其中了。

So it was probably more curiosity, and I then I fell into it when I came back to Australia.

我就继续指导运动员，然后是教练，接着是CEO、团队以及高管团队。

I just continued to mentor athletes and then coaches and then CEOs and teams and executive teams.

后来新冠疫情爆发，我就转向了青少年、学校和医院领域。

And then when COVID hit, I I pivoted to teenagers and schools and hospitals.

是的，大致就是这么个过程，但与其说我是有意成为心态教练，不如说更多是机缘巧合。

And, yeah, it's kind of going to there, but it's it's probably more lack than design in terms of how I became a mindset coach.

所以，我其实没法给你一个确切的答案。

So I can't really answer the question for you.

今天这里没有职业建议。

There's no career advice here today.

不是关于如何成为心态教练，而是关于如何在你正在做的任何事情上取得胜利。

Not not in how to become a mindset coach, more just on how to win at whatever you're already doing.

我对你说的关于被金钱和名声等外在因素驱动感到兴趣，因为对于那些志在巅峰的人来说，这似乎并不离谱。

I'm interested about what you said about being motivated by extrinsic things like money and fame because that doesn't seem like an outrageous thing for someone who is aiming to be the very top of their game.

精英体育的本质就是做到最顶尖。

That's what elite sport is all about is being the tippity top.

为什么不专注于能激励你的任何东西呢？

Why not focus on whatever's gonna motivate you?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

外在动机和内在动机之间需要保持平衡。

And it's a balance between extrinsic motivations and intrinsic motivation.

所以我希望人们能有一个他们追求的外部计分板。

So I like people to have an external scoreboard that they go after.

我的意思是，外在动机并不坏。

Mean, extrinsic motivations aren't bad.

比如，你需要钱来生活，也需要一个房子来居住。

Like, need money to live, and you need a house to live under.

对吧？

Right?

把这些目标和梦想公之于众，然后尽你所能、用你作为人类所拥有的全部天赋去奋力追逐，这很棒，对吧？

And it's great to put these goals and dreams out in the universe, and then chase them down as hard as you possibly can, right, with whatever gifts you've been given as a human being.

就像，去追求那些目标和梦想是一种特权。

Like, that's a that's a privilege to go after those goals and dreams.

但你可能会实现目标，却未必感到满足，而这正是内在动机变得真正强大的地方。

But you may achieve, though, but you might not feel fulfilled, and that's where intrinsic motivations become really powerful.

外在动机，你多少是无法控制的。

Extrinsic motivations, you kinda can't control.

你知道，你无法控制自己是否能赢得金牌，也无法控制一生能赚多少钱。

You know, you can't control whether you're gonna win the gold medal or how much money you'll make in your life.

对吧？

Right?

但你可以控制自己的内在动机。

But you can control your intrinsic motivations.

如果你能找到两者之间的平衡，就能以一种非常强大的方式重新定义成功，这样你就不必等到未来才算是成功。

And if you can find the balance between the two, you start to redefine success in a really powerful way, so you don't have to wait to be successful in the future.

与其说，我知道当自己获得晋升、建立某段关系或赢得那枚奖牌时才算成功，不如开始说，我知道当自己……时，我正在走向成功。

Instead of saying, I know I'll be successful when, you know, I get that promotion or that relationship or get that medal, you start to say, I know I'm being successful when.

所以，有人可能会说，我知道当自己每天走出舒适区、与朋友开怀大笑、看到孩子第一次做某件事，或是欣赏美丽的日出时，我正在走向成功。

And so, you know, someone might say, I know I'm being successful when I get out of my comfort zone every day, or I have a belly laugh with a friend, or, you know, I see my kids do something for the first time, or I watch A Beautiful Sunrise.

对吧？

Right?

你可以开始为自己且仅为自己定义成功，从而变得更加自主，而非由社会来定义。

You can start to define success for you and only you, and so you start to become more self determined rather than socially determined.

对吧？

Right?

所以成功的定义就是你所重视的价值与你生活方式之间的契合。

So the definition of success is the alignment between what you value and how you live your life.

对吧？

Right?

如果你只看重赢得奖牌，好吧，而你也确实做到了，那很好。

So if all you value is winning medals, okay, and you achieve that, then that's great.

那就是你的成功定义。

That's your definition of success.

但我们经常发现，有些人虽然达成了目标，却并不感到满足。

But what what we often find is people have achieved, but they don't feel fulfilled.

通常这是因为他们没有触及自己的内在动力，他们的整个身份已经变成了一个表演者。

And typically, that's because they haven't tapped into their intrinsic motivations, and their whole identity has become, you know, a performer.

因此，将角色与真实自我区分开来，或者说将‘人’与‘人的行为’区分开来，将自己与名片上的头衔分离，是非常重要的。

So it's really important to kind of separate the persona from the person, or what we say the human being from the human doing, and separate yourself with from your business card.

因为我们常常发现，在生命即将结束时，你可能如我所说已经取得了成就，但却没有感到满足。

Because we often find towards the end of your life, you might have, as I said, achieved, but you you don't feel fulfilled.

所以找到这种平衡真的非常重要。

So finding that balance is is really, really important.

我注意到，当你的价值评判标准来自外部时，比如你是一名运动员，一旦退出这个领域，可能会对你的心理造成巨大冲击。

It does strike me that when your your validators are external that if you were say if you are a sports person, when you exit that, that would really maybe do a number on your mind.

完全正确。

Totally.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，对于我们许多人来说，我们活在一种‘差距心态’中。

And I think that for so many so many of us, we're living in this kind of gap mentality.

我的意思是，我现在在这里，但我想要到达那里。

What I mean by that is, you know, I'm here, but I wanna be there.

也就是说，我需要在未来到达某个地方，而今天的位置和我未来想达到的目标之间存在一道鸿沟。

Like, I need to be there in the future, and there's a gap between where I am today and where I wanna be in the future.

因为存在这种差距，就会产生皮质醇，对吧？这种压力和期望，目标线还在不断移动，所以你永远无法到达。

Because there's a gap, it creates that cortisol, right, and this kind of pressure and expectation, and the goalposts just keep moving, so you'll never get there.

但有一种更聪明的生活方式，那就是活在进步中，回顾你最初起步的地方，找出你从上小学或中学到现在所取得的每一个小成就、小成功和小进步。

But there's such a smarter way to live your life, and that's to live your life in the gains, you know, to measure backwards from where you first started, and identify all the little wins and all the little successes and all the little gains you've had from, you know, when you first started at primary school or secondary school to where you are now.

而我们原始脑的负面偏见并不希望我们记住自己已经走过的美好旅程。

And our reptilian brain with a negativity bias doesn't want us to remember the beautiful journey that we've already been on.

所以，如果你做了这项工作，回忆起所有这些进步，然后问自己：我现在感觉如何？

And so if you do that work and you remember all those gains, and then you ask yourself, okay, how do I feel right now?

你通常会说：我感到感恩，因为我的一生中已经取得了这么多成就。

You typically say I feel grateful because I've had all these wins throughout my life.

我感到成功。

I feel successful.

我感到快乐。

I feel happy.

我感到自信。

I feel confident.

而我最喜欢的一个词是，我感到满足。

And my favorite word, I feel content.

对吧？

Right?

不过，我还没完成呢。

Now, I'm not done yet.

我还有很多其他的目标和梦想想去追求。

I've got all these other goals and dreams I wanna chase down.

我不是单一维度的。

I'm not one dimensional.

这意味着我现在追求的一切都是想要，而不是必需。

It just means everything I go after now is a is a want, not a need.

明白吗？

Okay?

如果你需要那份晋升或那个成就来证明自我价值，你就总会陷入那种缺失的心态，充满负面能量。

If you need that promotion or that achievement for your self worth, you'll constantly be in that gap mentality with that negative energy.

所以，是的，我再次强调，关键是在这两者之间找到平衡。

So, yeah, I get again, it's it's finding the balance between the two.

您正在收听ABC国家广播电台的《生活之道》。

You are listening to Life Matters here on ABC Radio National.

我是特蕾甘·泰勒，正在与心态教练本·克鲁交谈，他曾经帮助过许多最顶尖的体育界名人，我们正在讨论他用来帮助他们进入最佳状态的技巧。

I'm Tegan Taylor chatting with mindset coach Ben Crowe, who's worked with some of the biggest sporty names of all time, and about we're talking about the tricks he uses to help them get in the zone.

来自墨尔本的露易丝说：能做多少就做多少，你总会比自己想象的取得更多。

Louise in Melbourne says, do what you can, when you can, and you'll always achieve more than you think.

凯西说：别人怎么想我，跟我无关。

Cathy says, what other people think of me is none of my business.

一位可爱的听众说：《生活之道》已经做了我二十年的心态教练。

And one beautiful listener says, Matters has been my mindset coach for the past twenty years.

谢谢。

Thank you.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

这真是太美好了。

That's really beautiful.

哇。

Wow.

非常酷。

Very cool.

哦，那很酷。

Oh, that's cool.

我可不敢居功二十年。

I can't take credit for twenty years.

我只能说过去一年左右是我的功劳。

I can only take credit for a year or so of that.

本，你一直在与精英运动员合作。

Ben, you're working with elite athletes.

你是什么时候意识到这些方法对任何人都很有用的？

When did you realize that this was good stuff for anyone?

是的。

Yeah.

斯蒂芬妮·吉莫尔在2012年遭遇了挫折，她在公寓门口被一名随机的吸毒者袭击，那是我第一次完整地帮助一位运动员或个人经历整个过程——了解他们是谁，也就是我所说的‘连接心态’，然后探索他们想要从这种被称为生活的东西中获得什么。

I well, Stephanie Gilmore had a setback in 2012, and she got attacked by a random drug addict at the front of her apartment, and and it was probably the first time I took an athlete or individual through a whole process of working out, you know, who they are, which I call connection mindset, and then working out what they want out of this crazy thing called life.

接着是实现目标的工具、心态方法：如何达成目标，培养他们的价值观、目标、动机和需求，最后是自信与信念之间的平衡，因为这两者是截然不同的概念。

And then the the tools, the mindset tools of of how to get there and developing their values and their goals and their motivations and their needs, and finally, this balance between confidence and belief because they're quite different concepts.

而‘20年’并不是指‘20富’，而是指2016年的里士满足球俱乐部。

And then '20 wasn't '20 rich it was Richmond Football Club in 2016.

他们那一年表现非常糟糕。

They had a really bad year.

我接手了他们，结果第二年他们就赢得了冠军。

I took them on, and they won the flag the next year.

然后是2018年的阿什·巴蒂、澳大利亚板球队，接着是2019年的迪伦，以及几年后的丹尼尔。

And then Ash Barty in 2018 and Australian cricket team, and then Dylan in 2019, and Daniel a few years later.

所以，这就像一场意外演变成职业生涯的实验。

So, yeah, it was kind of like an experiment that turned into a career.

丹尼尔·里卡多，你这简直是左右开弓地报名字啊。

And Daniel Ricciardo just you're just dropping names left to right.

是的。

The yeah.

而且通常都是一对一的。

And it was just it was typically one on one.

我当时真的很好奇，这些原则在全球范围内有多重要，是否有效，而不仅仅是在澳大利亚。

I was really curious about, whether these principles how important they work globally, not just in Australia.

所以在2019年，我休了一个间隔年，想弄清楚自己长大后到底想做什么，但当时这样的机会并不多。

So in 2019, I took a gap year to work out what I wanted to do do when I grew up, and there weren't many gaps.

但我环游了世界，然后意识到，哇，就目前而言，这个世界在追求什么、成功的定义是什么、真正激励人类的是什么这些方面，存在着一个相当大的干扰。

But I traveled the world, and I realized, wow, this is a pretty big distraction that the world has at the moment in terms of in terms of what they're chasing, what the definition of success is, what truly motivates human beings.

然后，整个世界在2020年因为疫情也休了一个间隔年，这让我有时间初步将这些原则整理成一套心态课程，我们在2020年和2021年主要面向学校和医院发布了这套课程。

And then the whole world took a gap year in 2020 with the pandemic, and that gave me time to kinda codify these principles initially into a mindset course, which we released mainly for schools and hospitals in 2020 and 2021.

然后在过去的几年里，我又重新上路了。

And then I went back on the road for the last few years.

今年——准确说是去年，我意识到，如果我真想写这本书，把这些原则系统化并推广到全世界，现在就是最好的时机。

And this year well, last year, I had this gap where I go, if I'm ever gonna write this book and codify these principles for the whole world, right, now's the time.

所以，幸运的是，我有一年时间把这本书推向世界。

So, yeah, thankfully, I had had a year to to put the book out book out in the world.

是的。

So yeah.

但可能并没有一个特别的时刻。

But there probably wasn't a specific moment.

更可能是随着时间推移，我意识到，无论是一个十几岁的男孩或女孩，还是顶尖运动员，又或是六七十岁的人，我们都在被同样的事情分散注意力。

It's probably just over time, I realized we're all getting distracted, whether a teenage boy or girl or an elite athlete, right, or someone in their sixties and seventies.

我觉得我们被分散注意力的原因完全一致，于是我想到，居然没有一门教人如何做人的学校。

Just I feel like we're getting distracted for the exact same reasons, and I thought, there's no such thing as human being school.

去哪里学习如何做一个真正的人呢？

Where can learn to be a human being?

我认为，在过去三四十年里，随着消费主义、物质主义的兴起，以及对外在动机——即用外在成就来定义自我价值和身份——的痴迷，我们已经越来越向外求索。但我发现，那些转向内心、专注于自己能掌控之事的人，才是这个过程中真正强大的一部分。

And I think over the last three or four decades with the rise in consumerism and materialism and this obsession with extrinsic motivations for our self worth and our identity, I think we've just gone so external, but I noticed people who go internal and focus on the things they can control is a really powerful part of the process.