让父母在儿童照护上有更多选择，并在生前追悼会上告别

ABC收听，提供播客、广播、新闻、音乐等内容。

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

2007年，四个人神秘失踪。

In 2007, four people vanished.

这被称作一个死亡邪教。

It was dubbed a death cult.

但经过数月的调查，我认为事情没那么简单。

But after months of investigation, I don't think it's that simple.

我是多米尼克·贝恩斯，《扩展》节目的主持人，讲述纳努普四人组的故事——一群被卷入长达二十年他们从未要求过的传奇经历的人，他们花了数十年试图 reconciling 自己做出的、将他们引向此刻的抉择。

I'm Dominique Bayens, host of Expanse, the Nannup four, a story of people drawn into a twenty year saga they didn't ask for, who have spent decades trying to reconcile the choices they made that led them here.

这个家庭过着一种奇特的另类生活方式。

The family lived a bizarre alternative lifestyle.

在ABC收听或您常用的播客平台搜索《扩展》。

Search expanse on ABC listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hi.

我是泰根·泰勒，欢迎收听《生活事务》，在这里，您的故事塑造着全国的对话。

I'm Tegan Taylor, and this is Life Matters, where your stories shape the national conversation.

当我们所爱的人离世时，常会感到遗憾：真希望还能有一次机会告诉他们，他们对我有多重要。也许正因如此，生前追悼会的概念正逐渐流行起来。

There's a common lament when someone we love dies, I wish I'd had one more chance to tell them how much they meant to me, which is maybe why the idea of having a living funeral is gaining traction.

这是一种在他们仍活着、仍在场的时候，与所有爱他们的人一起庆祝生命的契机。

It's a chance to celebrate someone's life with all the people who love them while they're still there, alive, in the room.

你有没有考虑过这种方式？

Is it something you've considered?

让我们在接下来的二十分钟里聊聊这个话题。

Let's chat about it in the next twenty minutes.

接下来还有：你多久会投去一个批判性的白眼或挑起一道眉毛？

Also ahead, how often are you wielding a critical side eye or a raised eyebrow?

我们常被告诉不应过于评判他人，说这是性格缺陷，但一些科学家认为，这实际上是一种生物学上的必要。

We're told we shouldn't be too judgmental, that it's a character flaw, but some scientists argue it's actually a biological necessity.

这难道不是一个完美的免责金牌吗？

Wouldn't that be a fun get out of jail free card?

所有这些内容即将在ABC国家广播电台播出。

It's all coming up here on ABC Radio National.

但首先，澳大利亚每年在托儿中心补贴上的支出约为140亿美元。

But first, Australia spends about $14,000,000,000 a year subsidising child care centres.

但如果这笔钱直接给到父母，而不是托儿机构呢？

But what if that money flowed to parents instead of providers?

目前，大多数政府支持都与中心式托儿服务挂钩，但许多家庭依赖的是其他形式的照护。

Right now, most government support is tied to centre based care, yet many families rely on something different.

比如祖父母、保姆，或是根据工作和生活灵活安排的其他方式。

Grandparents, nannies, flexible arrangements, whatever fits around their work and life.

随着参议院正在对澳大利亚早期儿童体系的质量与安全展开调查，且一份重要报告即将公布，这一争论正引起越来越多关注。

And the debate is gaining attention as the Senate investigates the quality and safety of Australia's early childhood system with a major report due soon.

如果数十亿美元已经投入，那么谁该决定这笔钱的使用方式？

If billions of dollars are already being spent, who should control how it's used?

是政府、托儿机构，还是父母？

Government, providers, or parents?

那么，研究究竟表明什么对儿童的安全和发展最为有利？

And what does the research say is actually best for child safety and development?

和我一起的是塞西莉亚·科布，她是‘为父母而战’组织的创始人之一，该组织倡导将育儿补贴直接支付给父母。

And with me is Cecilia Cobb, a founder of For Parents, which is an advocacy group campaigning for the childcare subsidy to be paid directly to parents.

塞西莉亚，欢迎再次做客《生活事务》。

Cecilia, welcome back to Life Matters.

非常感谢您再次邀请我，泰根。

Thank you so much for having me back, Tegan.

所以，塞西莉亚，在我们开始之前，有几个小时前发布了一篇ABC的文章，称你们组织的联合创始人曾为自由党议员工作，而这一点此前并未公开。

So, Cecilia, before we get started, there's an ABC article that was released just a couple of hours ago that says your foreparents' cofounders previously worked for liberal MPs and that this hasn't been previously disclosed.

你对此有何回应？

How do you how do you respond to that?

哦，早上好，泰根。

Oh, good morning, Tegan.

是的。

Yes.

听好了。

Look.

我们是一群为改变而奔走的家长。

We we are a group of parents who are campaigning for change.

我们没有接受任何政党的资金。

We do not take money from any political parties.

实际上，我们除了一个500美元的GoFundMe筹款外，根本没有其他资金，而我认为这笔钱主要来自家人和朋友。

Well, actually, we have no money at all if other than a $500 GoFundMe, which I think has mostly been funded by family and friends.

所以我们不是来推动任何政治利益的。

So we're not here to progress any political interests.

我们是一群被自身经历所驱动的家长，亲眼目睹了家庭在拼凑托育服务时多么艰难，也看到数十亿美元流向了在证交所上市或由养老基金持有的托育机构，而这些机构正在牺牲安全来削减成本。

We are a group of parents who are motivated by our own experiences in community, seeing how families are really struggling to piece together care and seeing billions of dollars go to childcare providers who are listed on the ASX or owned by pension funds who are cutting corners on safety.

这就是我们在这里的原因。

So that's why we're here.

我们其实非常失望，因为昨天竟是ABC先来问我们一些志愿者曾经为谁工作过、我们认识谁，而不是问及托育行业如今陷入的困境，以及我们该如何解决它。

We were actually really disappointed to hear that, you know, it was it was the ABC who was asking us questions yesterday about who some of our, volunteers worked for once and who we might know, rather than asking about the crippling state of the childcare industry and and how we might be able to fix it.

所以我想，这再次是我的回应。

So I guess that's my response to you again.

感到失望。

Disappointed.

而且我们真的觉得，尤其是那些指控，说我们和自由党有联系。

And and we really feel like, you know, we've particularly the links, you know, the accusation that it's it's a link to the Liberal Party.

我们没有什么需要披露的，因为我们和自由党根本没有关联，我们的志愿者甚至熬夜工作。

We have nothing to disclose because there is no link to the Liberal Party to the extent that some of our tireless volunteers working up late at night.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我有点激动了。

I'm I'm getting a little bit upset.

你知道，我们只是在这里的父母，想推动改变，却没想到这位政治记者只关心某人以前为谁工作，以为我们背后有个自由党的大操纵者，而我们不可能只是靠自己做这件事。

You know, we're we are just parents here trying to make a change and to think that the only interest from this political reporter is on who someone used to work for and think that suddenly we're being you know, there's a big puppeteer there of the Liberal Party, and we couldn't be possibly just doing this on our own.

这简直是一种冒犯。

Like, it's quite offensive.

当然。

For sure.

塞西莉亚

Cecilia

知道。

knows.

对那个文章醒来后的感受。

Feeling about that, waking up to that article.

说得通。

Fair enough.

非常感谢你坦诚分享，或者感谢你详细讲述了你的思考过程。

Thanks so much for disclosing, or thanks so much for for going through your thought process there.

我今天想谈谈政策。

I do wanna talk about policy today.

当然。

Absolutely.

这场对话的核心正是如此。

That's what this conversation's all about.

您正在收听ABC国家广播电台的《生活要事》。

You are listening to Life Matters here on ABC Radio National.

我是泰根·泰勒，正在与四父母组织的创始人塞西莉亚·科布交谈。

I'm Tegan Taylor chatting with Cecilia Cobb, is a founder of Four Parents.

稍后您还将听到一位研究者关于对孩子最有利的做法。

You will hear soon from a researcher on what's best for kids as well.

但是，塞西莉亚，你们的组织主张将儿童保育补贴扩展到那些不把孩子送进托儿中心的父母。

But, Cecilia, your group is advocating to expand the child care subsidy to parents who don't have their kids in a child care center.

对你们来说，这会是什么样子？

What would this look like for you?

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢你，泰根。

Thanks, Tegan.

这不仅仅是关于孩子不在托儿中心的问题。

And it's not just about not having their kids in a child care center.

这里有很多孩子参加昆士兰州免费的每周十五小时的幼儿园项目，但父母们很难让这个安排与他们的工作时间相匹配。

There are many kids here who are going to the fifteen hour a week kindy program that is free in Queensland, and parents are really struggling to make that work with their work hours.

你知道，即使你只是兼职工作，要赶在下午2:30或12:30接孩子也相当困难。

You know, even if you're working part time, that's pretty tricky to get there to 02:30 pickup or 12:30 pickup in some cases.

因此，我们要求将家庭在中心式日托中符合资格的托儿补贴，扩展到可用于其他形式的看护服务。

So what we're asking for is the childcare subsidy that families are eligible for at a center based day care to be unlocked to use it for other forms of care.

比如，一位上夜班的护士可以雇用保姆在12:30去接孩子回家，等她下班后再照顾孩子。

So a nurse who's working shifts can pay for a nanny to go and do that 12:30 kindy pickup and bring the kids home and wait until she's finished her shift.

我们呼吁在资金使用方式上实现更大的公平性。

We're we're asking for more equality in how this funding is being used.

因为如果你的四岁孩子在一家从早上6点开放到晚上6点的长期托儿中心，你就能获得全天的补贴，但如果孩子在社区幼儿园，你可能就拿不到这笔补贴。

Because if you have your same four year old in a long hours childcare center that's open from six till six, you do get that subsidy for the for the whole day, but you might not get it if they're in a community kindy.

如果你当地唯一的选项就是幼儿园，那你真的错失了更好平衡工作与育儿的机会。

And if your your local kindergarten is all you have, you're really missing out on an opportunity to better balance your work and care.

你在介绍中很好地强调了这些资金可以用于的不同用途，比如帮助那些目前无力退休的祖父母。

You did a great job in your introduction of highlighting the different options that this could be used for, so that could be to help, supplement a grandparent who currently can't afford to retire.

我们在这里谈论的是代际财富差距，我们也知道有很多祖父母非常愿意照顾孙辈，但在当前经济环境下，连下一箱油钱都难以负担，他们根本无力承担。

We're talking a lot about intergenerational, wealth disparity there, and we also know that there are lots of grandparents who would love to be caring for their grandchildren, but simply can't afford to in this current economy where we're wondering how we can afford the next tank of fuel.

因此，这种安排非常灵活，无论是保姆、外籍家庭教师、祖父母，还是提供哺乳母亲工作空间并让婴儿就近哺乳的联合办公空间都可以适用。

So it is very flexible, whether it's nannies, au pairs, grandparents, or a coworking space where a breastfeeding mother might be able to work from and also have her baby near to keep breastfeeding.

这正是我们希望看到的。

That's that's what we'd like to see.

目前确实有一个属于儿童保育补贴的居家照护项目。

So there is currently a program for in home care that is part of the child care subsidy.

你的提议与之有何不同？

How's your proposal different?

你看。

Look.

居家照护项目完全失效了，因为

The in home care program is utterly broken, for

更好的词的缺失，

the loss of a better word,

我们不确定政府是没听到这个项目及其用户发出的警报，还是任由它失败。

And we're not sure whether the government is not hearing the alarm bells coming out of that industry and users of that program or whether they are letting it fail.

但这个项目旨在为无法使用日托服务的人填补空白。

But this program is intended to fill the gaps for people who can't use day care.

因此，这是一个针对农村家庭、轮班工作者以及有复杂健康需求家庭的按需项目。

So it's a needs based program for rural families, shift workers, families with complex health needs.

我们知道，有数十万个家庭生活在托儿服务荒漠中，那里没有足够的托儿名额，但使用这个项目的人却只有区区一千多人。

We know there are hundreds of thousands of families in child care deserts where there are not enough child care places for children, yet there's only a little over a thousand people using this program.

它的补贴标准要高得多。

It has a much higher subsidy rate.

因此，不是每小时仅补贴15美元，而是最高可达每小时40美元或38.60美元。

So instead of only $15 an hour funding, you get up to $40 an hour or $38.60.

因此，应该有更多人使用这个项目，但它被繁复的官僚程序严重拖累，而这些程序并非为了保障安全，而是单纯地限制了服务供给。

So there should be more people using this program, but it is so overridden with red tape and not in a way that, is guaranteeing safety, but in a way that is just locking up supply.

这就是为什么这个项目实际上正在失败。

And that's why the program is really failing.

在2024年，三C组织指出，该计划并未为其本应服务的家庭提供支持，但至今没有任何行动。

In in 2024, the a triple c noted that it was not delivering for the families it was supposed to, and yet nothing has been done.

如果它能有效运作，我们会要求提供更多选择。

If it was operating effectively, we would be asking for there to be more choice in that.

因此，与其基于需求的评估，不如转向基于选择的项目——人们不一定能获得更高水平的补贴，但可以享受到与中心式日托相同的待遇，以帮助他们应对我们之前提到的幼儿园接送时间不规律或夜班等问题。

So instead of a needs based assessment, there would be a choice based program where people don't necessarily get that higher level of subsidy, but they get the same that they're eligible for at center based day care just to help them make things work like we were talking about before with the odd hours of the kindy pickup or or the late night shifts.

我们认为这个项目亟需紧急恢复，因为它已经彻底失败了，但由于极其严格的资格标准，它未必能满足全国所有家庭的需求。

We think that program definitely needs to be urgently restored because it is utterly failing, but it's not necessarily going to meet the needs of of all families in in this country because of the really strict eligibility criteria.

所以你们目前正在开展一项调查。

So you're running a survey at the moment.

家长们告诉你们什么？

What are parents telling you?

我们正在发起一项请愿活动，而且正如我所说，没有任何资金支持。

We're running a petition, and we are with, you know, as I said, no funding.

我们目前已经收集了近两万个签名，全国各地的家庭都在向我们反映情况有多么严峻。

We're up to almost 20,000 signatures, and we are hearing from families all across the country just how dire things are.

如果你附近没有托儿中心，或者你的孩子有健康问题，我们已经听到了许多1型糖尿病家庭的反馈，教育人员根本无法应对孩子所需的护理和健康需求。

So if if you don't have a child care center near you or if your child has health issues, you know, we we've heard from a lot of families with type one diabetes that the educators are just simply not equipped for managing the care and health needs of their children.

最近在参议院的听证会上，一位令人印象深刻的儿科医生泪流满面地谈到，这个问题关乎生死，但现行制度却并未认识到这些家庭需要另一种形式的照护，以便他们能重返工作岗位。

And the you know, the in the senate inquiry recently, there was a really impressive pediatrician who was in tears talking about how life or death this really is, but yet the system doesn't recognize that those families should need another form of care to help them return to work.

就是像这样的故事。

So it's it's stories like that.

几乎每天都有令人心碎的故事传出，讲述人们在这个系统中如何苦苦挣扎。

There's heartbreaking stories almost every day coming out about people who just are struggling in this system.

您正在收听ABC国家广播电台的《生活要事》。

You're listening to Life Matters here on ABC Radio National.

我是特根·泰勒，正在采访凯西莉亚·科布，她是‘四位家长’组织的创始人。

I'm Tegan Taylor talking to Cecilia Cobb, is a founder of Four Parents.

他们希望让儿童照护补贴更容易获得，让父母在如何使用这笔补贴上有更多自主权。

They wanna make the child care subsidy more available for parents to have more discretion on how that's spent.

我很想知道你们家的托儿情况是怎样的。

I'd love to know what the child care situation is in your family.

也许你有年幼的孩子需要托育。

Maybe you've got young kids that you get care for.

也许你正在照顾孙辈或其他家庭成员。

Maybe you're part of the care for your grandchildren or another family member.

有人提到，当我的孩子还小的时候，他们有多种特殊需求，我无法工作。

One says, when my children were young, they had multiple special needs, and I was unable to work.

我也负担不起请保姆或临时看护来偶尔帮帮我。

I also couldn't afford to pay a support person like a nanny or babysitter to help me from time to time.

如果当时有托儿补贴帮助我在家照顾他们，我会非常感激。

I would have appreciated having the child care subsidy to help me care for them at home.

另一个人说，一直有人认为政府资金应该用于支持父母自行安排私人托育，但我一直认为，这只会给富裕家庭带来显著优势，同时威胁到那些请不起保姆的家庭所依赖的补贴托儿中心的安全。

Another says, there's always been an argument that government funds should be spent on parents making their own private arrangements, but I think it's always been understood that this would provide significant advantages to the well off and threaten the security of subsidized child care centres for people who can't afford nannies.

还有人说，我是一名非营利托育机构的幼儿教师。

Another, I'm an early childhood teacher in a not for profit service.

我是一位受过专业训练的人员，擅长促进幼儿的最大化学习。

I am a trained professional, skilled in facilitating maximum learning for young children.

这一点大多数祖父母甚至父母都做不到。

This cannot be said of most grandparents or even parents.

这直接关系到照料与教育如何相互作用的问题。

This goes directly to the question of how care and education interact.

家庭成员最能胜任照顾年幼的孩子，虽然这种照料对学习至关重要，但教育也同样不可或缺。

Family members are most abundantly able to care for their young children, and while that is an imperative for learning, education is also imperative.

非常有趣的见解。

Really interesting insights.

你可以把你的想法发给我，0418226576。

You can send me your thoughts, 0418226576.

在这里和我一起的还有卡伦·索普教授。

Also with me here is professor Karen Thorpe.

她是昆士兰脑研究所儿童发展教育与照料领域的团队负责人。

She's a group leader in child development education and care at the Queensland Brain Institute.

她对早期儿童教育进行了广泛研究，并曾在澳大利亚早期儿童系统质量与安全问题的参议院听证会上发言。

She's done extensive research into early childhood education and has spoken at the Senate inquiry into the quality and safety of Australia's early childhood system.

凯伦，欢迎再次做客《生活事务》。

Karen, welcome back to Life Matters.

谢谢。

Thank you.

那么，你在参议院听证会上提出了哪些问题呢？

So what kind of issues were you laying out with

当你出席参议院听证会时，你指出了当前体系的哪些问题？

the current system when you fronted the Senate inquiry?

所以，我的团队是一个庞大的团队，致力于早期教育与保育领域的大量工作。

So, obviously, my team is a large team who do a lot of work in early education and care.

这包括家庭日托和其他替代形式，而不仅仅是中心式托育。

That includes family daycare and alternatives, not just centre based care.

我们关注全澳大利亚的情况，并能接触到非常庞大的数据集，以研究早期教育与保育。

And we look at the whole of Australia, we have access to very large data sets to look at early education and care.

我们花了很多时间在托育机构、家庭托育和长期托育中，观察实际发生的情况，这非常重要。

And we spend a lot of time actually in services, family daycare, long daycare, looking at what goes on, which is important.

因此，我在参议院听证会上提出的主要是两点。

So, what I set out in the Senate inquiry was two things.

第一，这个系统并没有严重崩溃。

One is that the system is not cripplingly broken.

大多数服务机构做得很好，但确实存在一些问题。

The majority of services are doing very well, but there are problems.

在行业的某些部分，以及一天中的特定时段，都存在问题。

And there are problems in parts of the sector, and there are problems in particular times of day.

我们讨论了这些问题。

And we talked about those.

这些问题涉及睡眠、休息时间和用餐时间等照护时段，当教育工作者压力较大时更容易出现。

Those are things about sleep, rest time and meal times that sort of care time when educators are under stress.

还要记住，当我们身处家庭环境时，孩子本身也会带来压力时刻。

Remember also that when we're in the home setting, children provide stress times as well.

因此，在早期教育和保育中，无论是家庭托育还是居家照护，我们都观察到了压力时段，并已识别出这些问题。

So, they are in early education and care, whether it be family daycare, whether it be in a home, we see stress periods, we have identified those.

因此，我们也讨论了需要集中精力解决这些问题的领域。

So we also talked about places that we need to concentrate to fix those problems.

所以在参议院调查中，我谈到了去年《四角》节目引发的本能反应。

So in the Senate inquiry, I talked about the knee jerk reaction to the Four Corners program last year.

显然，服务机构中确实存在恋童癖者。

And obviously, there have been pedophiles in services.

因此，我谈到了三件事。

So I talked about three things.

第一是本能反应表现为在服务机构安装闭路电视，但这可能带来问题：在人力短缺的情况下，这可能会让教育工作者产生抵触情绪；此外还涉及儿童同意、家长同意、摄像头安全性等问题，而且闭路电视的效果取决于是否有人在观看，可能造成一种虚假的安全感。

One was the knee jerk reaction has been to put CCTV into services, and how that might be a problem in that it might turn off educators when we have a workforce crisis, that there are issues of child consent, parent consent, and security of those cameras, and that it might be a problem of complacency given that CCTV is as good as if you look at it.

所以去年的报告发布了。

So the reporting came out last year.

我认为你提到政策上出现了本能反应。

I think you said there were knee jerk reactions in policy.

我认为也有很多家长感到有些恐慌。

I think there were also a lot of parents who got a bit spooked.

由Mindaroo基金会委托的Insightfully公司去年发布的一项研究显示，每十个家庭中就有一个离开了儿童保育系统。

There was research by Insightfully, which was commissioned by the Mindaroo Foundation, reported last year that one in ten families had left the child care system.

人们害怕儿童保育吗，凯伦？

Are people scared of childcare, Karen?

嗯，我

Well, I

我认为显然那个节目引起了很高的关注，确实让家长感到担忧。

think obviously that was a very high profile program, and I think it did cause concern for parents.

但我认为我要说的是，我们也看到了一些非常出色的工作。

But I guess one of the things that I would say is that what we see is some extraordinary work as well.

所以，

So,

其中一个

one of

我认为任何听众都应该明白，重要的不是孩子在哪里接受照料，而是他们如何被照料。

the things I think that is important for any listeners to hear is that it's not about where a child is being cared for, but how they are cared for.

因此，无论是在家庭环境中、由持有资质的专业教育者提供的家庭日托，还是基于激励的照料方式，关键都在于照料的质量和他们所获得的互动。

So, whether that's in a home setting, a family daycare setting, which is a home with a professional educator who will have a qualification, or an incentive based care, it's about the quality of the care and interactions they get.

因此，我们需要为那些照料和教育儿童的人提供支持，我认同那位发短信的人的观点，这确实是一份专业工作。

So, we need to provide around those people who are caring and educating children, and I take the point of the person who's texted in, it is a professional job.

我们所有从事早期教育和照料、家庭日托的教育者都拥有从证书到学士、硕士级别的资质。

All of our educators in early education and care and family day care do have qualifications from degree and master's level, with a minimum of a certificate.

所以我想说的是，我们确实看到了很多积极的方面，但也发现了存在问题的地方，这些在家庭中存在，在任何照料环境中也都存在。

So, what I would say is that we do see lots of good stuff, but we see places where there's a problem, and we have that in homes and we have it in any care setting.

你是否支持对早期儿童系统之外的选项提供补贴？

Do you support subsidising options outside of the early childhood system?

我认为我们不应该

I think we don't

缺乏相关证据，而我作为一名研究者，只会基于证据发言。

have evidence, and obviously I'm a researcher, and I'll talk to the evidence.

有一些证据表明，照顾孙辈对祖父母来说压力很大。

There is some evidence on grandparents that it's quite stressful for grandparents.

当然，像我这样的人也有很多，我有一个八个月大的孙子，我还在全职工作。

And also, of course, we have people like me, I've got an eight month old grandson, I'm still working full time.

所以我们仍然在工作，并不是因为我想要退休，而是因为我依然活跃在职场中。

So, we've still, not because I want to retire, but because I'm still very active in the workforce.

因此，我认为我们需要更多的证据。

So, one of the things I think about that is that we need more evidence.

目前我们有一个家庭日托系统，可以在家中提供照护，我有一个有残疾的孩子，由于健康原因，家庭日托是一个可行的选择，而且它也提供了灵活性。

What we have at the moment is a system where we do have family day care, which can provide in a home, and I have a child with a disability who, for the health reasons, that was an option, and they also provide flexibility.

我不认为这是唯一的解决方案，我认为我们需要考虑其他方式。

I don't think that that's the sole answer, and I think we need to look at other things.

澳大利亚已经试点过保姆项目，但效果不佳，参与率很低，也不成功。

Australia has already trialed a nanny project that wasn't very successful, very low uptake, and not very successful.

我认为我们必须意识到，如果我们打算补贴并投入联邦资金，就需要一个公平的环境，也就是监管。

I think we have to bear in mind that if we're going to subsidize and put Commonwealth funds into, then we need an even playing field, which would be regulation.

因此，我们需要在那种照护环境中引入监管。

So we would need to get regulation into that care setting.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

如果安全是首要关切，那么将重点放在中心之外的照护上是正确的方向吗？

If safety is the primary concern, is focusing on care outside of centres the right direction?

我认为我们需要更多证据，必须对此进行研究。

I think we need more evidence, and we have to look at that.

所以我想说的是，目前我们还没有足够的证据。

So what I'd say is at the present, we don't have sufficient evidence.

获取证据很难，因为我们在家庭日托或早期教育和集体照护环境中进行观察，了解实际情况，但要跟踪个体——无论是父母、祖父母还是保姆——则更加困难。

It's hard to get evidence because what we do in our settings is sit in family day care settings or in early education and care group based settings to understand what goes on, following around individuals, whether that be parents or grandparents or nannies, is more difficult.

但我们确实需要证据。

But we do need evidence.

已经有一些研究——不是我做的——关于保姆项目等。

There has been some studies, not my studies, on the nanny program and so on.

我的理解是，这个项目并不太成功。

My understanding is it wasn't very successful.

塞西莉亚，当你倡导的是一种儿童保育的去中心化模式时，你如何回应安全这个问题？

Cecilia, how do you talk to the idea of safety when what you're advocating for is perhaps a kind of decentralisation of childcare?

我们认为，任何接受这笔资金的看护者都应达到最低标准。

Look, we do think that any carers receiving this funding should be meeting minimum standards.

因此，他们绝对需要获得蓝卡和无犯罪记录证明。

So they absolutely need a blue card and a police check.

我们认为他们应该接受一些培训模块。

We think they should have some modules of training.

儿童安全，绝对必要。

So child safety, absolutely.

儿童发展和急救也很有帮助。

And child development would be helpful, first aid.

我们认为他们应该被列入国家教育者登记册。

And we think they should be on the National Educators Register.

如果真是这样，您会看到这种更非正式的托育服务在资质和监管、监督方面得到显著提升，因为这种情况如今已经发生了。

So if if that were the case, you would actually see a significant improvement in the qualifications and also the the regulation, the oversight of this more informal care sector because this is happening today already.

只是目前只有那些经济条件优越或愿意做出重大牺牲的人才能享受到。

It just is happening with the people who either can easily afford it or are desperate enough to make significant sacrifice.

大家宁愿戴上眼罩，假装那边什么问题都没有。

And it's like everyone's happy to have the the blinders on to say, there's nothing to see over there.

但事实上，没有人去追踪那些曾收到投诉或发生过事故的看护人员，而这些在正规托育中心是有人监管的。

When the the reality is no one is keeping track of whether there are people who have had complaints or incidences in the same way that they are in their child care centers.

因此，我们实际上认为这是在全面提升整个行业的标准。

So we actually see it as lifting of the standards across the board.

Cecilia，我有几个问题想问你。

A couple of questions I might put to you, Cecilia.

有人在问这项政策的成本是多少。

One person is asking about the costings of this policy.

与此相关的是，那些滥用补贴的不负责任的父母怎么办？

And kind of related, what about irresponsible parents who misuse the subsidy?

保障措施在哪里？

Where are the guardrails?

是的。

Yes.

关于成本问题，我们并没有要求家庭承担超出当前资格标准的费用。

So on costings, we're not asking for families to have anything more than their current eligibility.

目前，儿童保育补贴方面，您工作、学习或其他参与活动的时长都会每两周进行一次审核，您的收入也是如此。

So at the moment, for the child care subsidy, your work hours or your studying or whatever your other participation is to qualify, that is measured fortnightly as is your income.

然后您的补贴会根据这些信息计算并支付给服务机构。

And then your subsidy is calculated and paid to the providers.

我们并不建议对这些规定做任何改变。

We're not suggesting that any of that change.

我们只是希望扩展补贴的使用场景。

It's just the use case that you might be able to use it for.

我们还认为，这有可能带来显著的成本节约，尤其是在市中心的托儿中心，费用异常高昂。

We also see that there there is potential for significant savings because the cost of, particularly in inner city child care center is quite extraordinary.

我认识一些人，他们符合30%或40%补贴资格，但仍然要自掏腰包支付高达7万美元的托儿费用，用于两个孩子的托育。

I know people who are on, you know, eligible for a 30 or 40% subsidy who are still paying $70,000 out of pocket for two children in childcare.

所以，如果请一个全职保姆，7万美元的自付费用还绰绰有余。

So to have a full time nanny, you'd have some change for $70,000 out of pocket.

因此，我们看到，纳税人为这一领域贡献了极其庞大的资金，这一点别忘了。

So we are seeing you know, don't forget the taxpayers are paying extraordinary contribution to that.

所以我们发现，在某些领域实际上可能存在节省空间。

So we're seeing the potential for there to actually be savings in some areas.

但这并不是关于节省的问题。

It's not about savings, though.

关键是，目前有数十亿美元的纳税人资金流入了股东和海外养老基金。

It's about the fact that currently, there are billions of dollars of taxpayer money that are going into shareholders and and overseas pension funds.

这个领域正在产生利润，而我们不禁要问，为什么在培训、质量或安全方面却如此不足？

There are profits being made from this sector, and we are we we're wondering why there isn't enough training or quality or safety.

我们所要求的，只是将更多控制权交还给父母，并相信父母会为孩子做出正确的决定。

And all we're asking for is to give a bit more of that control back to parents and trust that parents will make the right decision for their child.

如果他们对当地托儿中心的质量不满意，并且有其他选择，托儿中心可能会失去一些生源，从而不得不提升标准以满足家长的期望。

If they are uncomfortable with the quality of a local child care center and they have another option, the child care center might lose a few enrollments, and they might need to lift the standard to meet the expectation of parents.

我们实际上认为这是非常好的事情。

And we actually see that as a really good thing.

凯伦，根据研究，家长理想中的系统应该是什么样的？

Karen, what would the ideal system look like for parents according to the research?

所以有一件事是，你可以谈谈家长离开的情况，这可能会促使托儿中心提升质量。

So one of the things is I think you could talk about parents leaving and they might increase their quality.

我的关注点是如何改革监管体系。

Mine is about how we change the regulation system.

我就是跟参议院调查小组谈过这个话题。

And that's what I talked to the Senate inquiry about.

目前，监管机构在审查任何接受托儿补贴的托儿和教育服务时，主要做两件事。

So, at the moment, we have two things that regulatory authorities do in looking at any form of childcare and education that is receiving childcare subsidy.

我们需要做的是真正审视这些流程，并加以简化。

What we need to do is actually look at how that is done and streamline it.

因为我们面临的一个问题是，现在有两套流程。

Because one of the problems we have is that it's taking two so there's two things.

一个是监督。

One is monitoring.

他们可以随时到场，通过检查设施来提升质量。

They can come in at any time and work with surfaces to improve quality.

如果收到问题报告，他们也会前往调查。

They'll also go in if there's been a report of a problem.

另一个是评估与评级，他们会进入中心进行检查并给出评级。

The other is assessment and rating, where they go in and inspect the centre and give it a rating.

评级范围从未达标、达标、超出标准到卓越不等。

It'll be anything from not meeting the standard, meeting the standard, exceeding or excellence.

所以我们目前拥有所有这些机制。

So, we have all of those.

我曾提出，这些标签或许应该像酒店的TripAdvisor那样采用数值评分，这样我们才能真正理解其含义，而不是迷失方向或做其他事情。

I've argued that perhaps those labels should be a number, like TripAdvisor for hotels, so that we actually understand what you not have a compass or be doing something else.

只要在国家质量标准中有一项未达标，就属于需要改进的范围，但有些方面对儿童来说比其他方面更重要。

You only have to fail one thing in the national quality standard to be working towards, but there are certain things that are more important for children than others.

因此，我们讨论这些重点，认为应该聚焦于真正影响儿童福祉的方面。

And so we talk about those, we think we need to focus on those that make a difference to children.

所以，重点应放在简化流程上，以确保这些措施能更频繁地实施，比如注册保姆虽然受法规约束，但尚未经过验证，因此我无法对此发表评论。

So the focus needs to be to streamline it to make sure that that's happening more regularly, whether a registered nanny who would be under the regulations, but that hasn't been tested, so I can't comment on that.

但所有情况都应遵循相同的标准。

But they would all need to be subject to the same.

我们需要能够定期进行监督。

We need to be able to monitor regularly.

我们需要进行评估和评级，周期至少为两年。

We need to do assessment and rating with a minimum of two years.

目前，这个过程耗时太长。

At the moment, it's taking too long.

因此，我们希望更频繁地进行监督和监管，我们已向政府提出了实现这一目标的方法。

So, we want more frequent monitoring and regulation, and we have provided to the government a way of doing that.

因此，关注那些对儿童有影响的方面，共有三点。

So, the focus on those things that make a difference to children, there are three of those.

我们分析了数据，这三点是：教育计划、与儿童的关系，以及儿童所处的物理环境。

We've looked at the data, that's the education program, it's relationships with children, and it's the physical environment in which children are.

因此，我们专注于这三点进行观察。

So, we focus on those to observe.

否则，我们会每年多次谨慎地进入提供CCS服务的机构、家庭等场所，检查安全性。

Otherwise, we go very carefully, multiple times a year, into services, homes, wherever the care is receiving CCS, to look at the safety.

我们提到的另一件事是，要更友善地与这些提供者合作，而不是仅仅对他们进行认证。

And one of the other things that we talk about is being more friendly and working with those providers, rather than attesting them.

我们还希望更频繁地进行评估，更友善地对待，更聚焦于儿童，我们已经向政府提出了实施方法。

So the other thing we so we want more frequent, we want it more friendly, we want it more focused on children, and we have provided to the government a way of doing that.

塞西莉亚，简短地说，你希望参议院调查报告的成果是什么？

Cecilia, very briefly, what do

你希望参议院调查报告的成果是什么？

you hope the outcome of the Senate inquiry report will be?

我们对儿童保育补贴能够根据我们的请愿得到全面扩展持乐观态度。

Oh, we are hopeful for a unanimous recommendation for the child care subsidy to be expanded as per our petition.

好了，塞西莉亚、凯伦，非常感谢你们今天参与我们的节目。

Well, Cecilia, Karen, thank you both so much for joining me today.

塞西莉亚·科布是‘为父母而战’组织的创始人，该组织致力于推动儿童保育补贴直接支付给父母；而凯伦·索普教授是昆士兰脑研究所儿童发展、教育与照护团队的负责人。

Cecilia Cobb is a founder of For Parents, an advocacy group campaigning for the child care subsidy to be paid directly to parents, and professor Karen Thorpe, group leader in child development, education, and care at the Queensland Brain Institute.

请继续关注，接下来在ABC国家广播电台的《人生大事》节目中，我们会讨论：你是否愿意提前举办自己的葬礼，以便能亲自参加？

Well, stick around because coming up next to you on Life Matters on ABC Radio National, would you hold your funeral a little early so that you got to be able to go?

基督教和伊斯兰教都起源于犹太教。

Christianity and Islam both trace their roots to Judaism.

但反犹主义的宗教根源是什么？

But what are the religious roots of antisemitism?

我是安德鲁·韦斯特，在《大思想》节目中，我和斯科特·史蒂文斯将探讨宗教间的冲突如何塑造了当今的信仰与社会规范。

I'm Andrew West, and on Big Ideas, Scott Stevens and I will be hosting a discussion on how conflict between the faiths has shaped today's beliefs and social norms.

反犹主义的宗教根源。

Antisemitism's religious roots.

今天中午在ABC广播电台和ABC听应用播出。

Today at noon on ABC Radio National and ABC Listen.

错过自己的葬礼，似乎真的很遗憾。

It seems like a shame that you'd miss out on going to your own funeral.

你所爱的人都聚在同一个房间里，说着关于你的好话，而你却无法在场享受这一切。

All the people you love are in one room together saying lovely things about you, and you're not there to enjoy it.

但如果你在场呢？

But what if you were?

这正是‘生前葬礼’的理念所在。

That is the idea behind a living funeral.

这是一种在你去世前，与亲人一起庆祝你的人生并告别的机会。

It's a chance to celebrate your life with your loved ones and say goodbye before you die.

接下来，你将认识一位协助组织过这种葬礼的人，并听到一位研究者表示，人们对这种告别方式的兴趣正在增长。

You're about to meet someone who helped organize one and from a researcher hear from a researcher who says there's growing interest in this kind of farewell.

和我在一起的是朱利安·沃诺克。

With me is Julian Warnock.

他的已故妻子简身患绝症，申请了自愿协助死亡。

His late wife, Jan, was terminally ill and applied for voluntary assisted dying.

简非常坚决。

Jan was adamant.

她不想要葬礼，于是朱利安组织了一场生前告别会。

She didn't want a funeral, so Julian organized a living wake instead.

朱利安，欢迎你，我对你的失去深表哀悼。

Julian, welcome, and I'm I'm sorry for your loss.

谢谢你，蒂根。

Thank you, Tegan.

你为什么决定以这种方式告别？

Why did you decide to say goodbye like this?

正如你提到的，简不想要葬礼。

Well, as you as you mentioned, Jan didn't wanna have a funeral.

她有那么多朋友，我们觉得总不能就这样算了。

She had so many friends that we go well, you can't just go.

你得做点什么，你知道的，你必须做点什么。

You you need to, you know, you need to do something.

这些人非常想和你一起庆祝你的生命。

These people would love to celebrate your life with you.

这样做总比不做要好，不好意思。

It's better to do that than not, excuse me.

所以，我们大概有一周时间来组织，但最终聚集了一群很棒的人。

So, yeah, we had about a week to organize it, but we ended up with a with a great group of people.

我觉得有超过90人参加了。

I think we had over 90 people attend.

所以，没错，简不太想要葬礼，但我们说服了她，也许她该有个送别仪式。

So, yeah, Jan wasn't keen on a funeral, but we convinced her that perhaps she should have some send off.

那么，当你邀请人们参加生前追悼会时，他们怎么说？

So what did people say when you were inviting them to a living wake?

是的。

Yes.

这非常有趣。

It was it was it was very interesting.

人们立刻就响应了，说好的。

People just jumped on straight away and said, yes.

当然了。

For sure.

我们会来的。

We're coming.

我们甚至有正在墨尔本度假的人。

We had people even who were away on holidays down in Melbourne.

我在凯恩斯，但他们特地飞回来参加。

I'm up in Cairns, and they flew back just to go to that.

是的。

Yeah.

真的非常惊人。

Was quite phenomenal, really.

跟我说说晚上的情况。

Tell me about the evening.

我正试着在脑海中想象那个场景。

I'm trying to picture it in my mind.

是的。

Yeah.

我有个朋友有一间大厅，简曾经是家居设计师，她一直和他合作，把那里布置成婚礼场地之类的。

Well, had a friend of mine had a hall, and Jan had been a home stylist, and she'd been working with him to style up the place for a wedding venue and so forth.

所以他把大厅免费借给我们使用。

So he volunteered the hall for us.

我的家人，包括我的儿子们，一起布置了大厅。

My family, my sons and so forth set up the hall.

我们搬进了桌椅、饮料、照片和鲜花，还租了一辆饮品拖车停在前面，他们为我们调制鸡尾酒。

We brought in tables and chairs and drinks and photographs and flowers, and we hired a drinks trailer to park out the front, and they were mixing up cocktails for us.

是的，大约下午5点半，大家都来了，我们围在一起聊天、喝点酒、回忆往事，但当时简身体还很虚弱，没有到场，所以我们把她接了过来。

And yeah, so everybody fronted up around about 05:30 in the afternoon and we all stood around and chatted and had a few drinks and reminisced and so forth, but Jan was still quite ill at the time, so she wasn't there and we brought her in.

我儿媳给她打扮了一番，她看起来棒极了。

My daughter-in-law had done her all up and she looked fantastic.

她大约六点一刻到达，我们随后进行了致辞等活动。

She arrived around about quarter past six, and we had speeches and things like that.

有些幽默调侃发生了。

Some roasting went on.

简是个非常、非常、非常有活力的人，而且极其受欢迎。

Jan was a very, very, very live person and was incredibly popular.

她是否

Did she

所以一切都很顺利。

So it went well.

她发言了吗？

Did she speak?

是的。

Yes.

她确实说了。

She did.

她最初告诉我：‘你看，我觉得我撑不了超过半小时。’

She originally said to me, look, I don't think I can last more than half an hour.

她坚持了大约一小时二十分钟。我的意思是，有太多人有机会上前拥抱她、亲吻她、和她聊天，当然，我们还做了致辞。最终，简原本说她不会发言，但当她在那里时，当然忍不住了。

She lasted about an hour and twenty minutes At the at the thing, I mean, just so many people had the opportunity to come up and give her a cuddle and a hug and a chat, know, and and of course, we had the speeches, and in the end, Jan said she wouldn't say anything originally, but when she was there, of course, she couldn't help herself.

所以她确实发表了讲话，而且，这真的是一个非常非常美好的方式，来纪念她的一生，也让她能够亲身参与其中。

So she did give the speech, and yeah, no, it was a really, really good way to celebrate her life and for her to be there.

我觉得，有人能真正听到别人对她的赞美，这很好。

I think it's nice to have somebody, you know, actually listening to the accolades that people put.

听起来像一场生日派对。

It sounds like a birthday party.

你提到饮料车，每个人都在笑啊闹啊，还互相调侃。

Like, you're talking about a drinks truck and everyone's, like, having a laugh and having a roast.

你一定感到某种认知上的矛盾，明明知道那并不是那么回事。

It must have had a pretty weird cognitive dissonance to kinda know that that wasn't what that was all about.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

It was.

所以有些人并不知情。

So some people weren't aware.

所以简，这件事发生在周三晚上，而简的协助自杀安排在第二天，因此那实际上是她生命中的最后一个晚上，很多人一开始并不知道，直到他们到达后我们才提到，这确实让他们感到有些震惊。

So Jan so this was on a Wednesday night, and Jan's volunteer assisted dying was going to happen the next day, so it was sort of like the last evening of her life, and a lot of people weren't aware of that initially until they arrived, we sort of mentioned it, and it was sort of like a bit of a shock to them, really.

而且，是的，这确实有点奇怪，但最终的结果远远好过她不在场时举办一场葬礼。

And, yeah, it it is it is a little bit bizarre, but the outcome at the end of it is is is far far better than than what we would have had with a funeral when she wasn't there.

至少她能了解到人们内心的想法。

At least she gets an idea of what people are thinking.

朱利安，你是怎么应对的？

Julian, how did you cope?

我光是听你讲就已经感动得哭了。

I've got teesomized just listening to you

描述一下吧。

describe Yeah.

不太好。

Not good.

我的儿子们非常棒。

My sons were fantastic.

我状态不太好。

I was not great.

对我来说并不容易，但他们真的非常棒。

It wasn't easy for me, But, yeah, they were fantastic.

您正在收听ABC国家广播电台的《生活要事》。

You're listening to Life Matters here on ABC Radio National.

我是泰根·泰勒。

I'm Tegan Taylor.

我正在与朱利安·沃诺克交谈，他的已故妻子简几年前举办了一场生前告别会。

I'm talking to Julian Warnock, whose late wife Jan held a living wake a couple of years ago now.