如何保护你的“滚蛋基金”并带着痴呆症旅行

只是

Just

四十年前，种族主义在南非是合法的。

forty years ago, racism was legal in South Africa.

你被视为非人。

You were a non person.

你不是白人。

You were non white.

我是西松·金·西芒。

I'm Sisong Kim Simang.

我父亲是反对种族隔离的自由斗士，我成长于一场终结这种不公的全球运动之中。

My dad was a freedom fighter against apartheid, and I grew up as part of a global movement to end that injustice.

但我对澳大利亚人做了什么知之甚少。

But I don't know much about what Australians did.

所以，请和我一起认识那些挺身而出、帮助改变世界历史的澳大利亚人。

So join me as I meet the Aussies who took a stand and helped change world history.

回溯抵制运动。

Rewind Boycott.

在ABC Listen或您收听播客的任何平台搜索ABC回溯。

Search for ABC Rewind on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hi.

我是泰根·泰勒，欢迎收听《生活要事》，在这里，您的故事塑造着全国性的对话。

I'm Tegan Taylor, and this is Life Matters, where your stories shape the national conversation.

收到阿尔茨海默病的诊断，可能会让人感觉是末日的开始。

Receiving a dementia diagnosis can feel like the beginning of the end.

那些微小的遗忘、早期的预警信号，逐渐变成一个巨大的箭头，指向不可避免的衰退。

Those little lapses, the early warning signs, become a big fat arrow pointing towards an inevitable decline.

因此，人们很容易认为把亲人裹在棉花里是最好的做法。

So it's easy to think wrapping your loved one in cotton wool is the best thing to do.

但在接下来的二十分钟里，您将认识两位人士，他们决定将诊断作为出发点，收拾行囊，环游世界。

But in the next twenty minutes, you'll meet two people who decided to use their diagnoses as a trigger to pack their bags and travel the world.

接下来，也许这是对无尽滚动的一种抵抗，也许是怀旧情绪，但复古爱好正迎来热潮，尤其是在年轻人中。

Also ahead, maybe it's an attempt to resist the endless scroll, maybe it's nostalgia, But analog hobbies are having a moment, especially among younger folks.

我说的是编织、钩针和剪贴簿。

I'm talking knitting, crochet, scrapbooking.

告诉我你最喜欢的复古爱好，我很快将在ABC国家广播电台为你揭示这一趋势背后的动因。

Tell me your favorite old school hobby, and I'll tell you what's driving this trend soon here on ABC Radio National.

但首先，我能稍微八卦一下，问问你的财务状况吗？

But first, can I get a little nosy for a second and ask you about your finances?

你和你的伴侣（如果你有的话）是把所有钱都放在一个联名账户里，还是完全分开管理，或者采用一种混合模式？

Do you and your partner, if you have one, share everything in a joint account, or do you keep things totally separate or do a bit of a hybrid situation?

我这么问是因为澳大利亚家庭研究学院今天发布了一份新报告，显示越来越多的伴侣正在放弃完全合并财务的做法。

I ask because a new report out today from the Australian Institute of Family Studies shows more couples are moving away from fully pooling their money.

相反，他们更倾向于保持一定的财务独立性，尤其是年轻夫妇，这种方式往往效果很好。

Instead, they're choosing to be a bit more financially independent, especially younger couples, and that can work really well.

但当一段关系结束时，人们常常会发现，‘我的就是我的’这句话并没有想象中那么简单。

But when a relationship ends, it's often when people discover it's not quite as simple as what's mine is mine.

稍后我们会深入探讨这一点，但目前我想知道你在当前或过去的感情关系中是如何安排财务的。

More on that in a moment, but for now, I wanna know how you've set up the finances in your relationship or in your past relationships.

你们是使用共同账户、独立账户，还是两者结合？

Do you have shared accounts, separate accounts, a bit of both?

是什么促使你做出这样的财务安排决定？

What has gone into your decision to set your finances up this way?

O418226576.

O418226576.

今天和我在一起的是基拉·达根，澳大利亚家庭研究研究所的研究主任。

Here with me is Kira Duggan, research director with the Australian Institute of Family Studies.

基拉，欢迎来到《生活事务》。

Kira, welcome to Life Matters.

谢谢，蒂根。

Thanks, Tegan.

很高兴来到这里。

Lovely to be here.

所以你们的组织是这项新研究的参与方之一。

So it's your organization that's part of this that's behind this new study.

你们在现代伴侣如何管理财务方面发现了什么？

What did you discover about how modern couples are managing their finances?

我们的报告提供了一个快照，来看看澳大利亚现代关系的现状。

So our reports a bit of a snapshot to take a look at what's going on with modern relationships in Australia.

数据显示，婚姻正在减少，而事实婚姻和其他类型的关系正在增加。

We can see from the data that marriage is on the decline, and de facto and other types of relationships are increasing.

随着这些非传统关系的增多，伴侣们对自己关系的理解，与法律在分手时对这些关系的实际认定之间，可能存在一定的脱节。

And in the I guess, with these other types of non traditional relationships on the rise, there can be a bit of a disconnect between what couples understand their relationships to be, and then what the law actually says about them in the event of a separation.

我的意思是，大多数人进入一段关系时，并不会想：‘嗯，我们可能会分手。’

I mean, most people don't go into a relationship being like, well, we'll probably break up.

你可能只是希望这段关系能长久一些。

Like, you sort of maybe hope that it's it's gonna be a long term thing.

你认为是什么影响了人们组织财务方式的改变？

What do you think is influencing the change in how people are organizing things?

我的意思是，随着传统婚姻的减少，人们对婚姻的看法确实发生了变化和演进，婚姻不再被视为人们的最终目标，事实上，对许多人来说，维持一段关系本身就已经是长期的选择。

So, I mean, I I I think I I think, you know, with with the decline of traditional marriage, there are certainly changing and evolving attitudes towards the fact that marriage is no longer the sort of the end goal for people, and indeed, just being in a relationship in and of itself is is for many the long term option.

随着这些观念的转变，尤其是年轻人中，越来越强调自主和平等，‘我的就是我的’，当我进入一段关系时，我会带着我自己的东西进来。

With those changing attitudes, there is also this notion, particularly young among younger people, as you said before, notions of of autonomy and equality, and what's mine is mine, and when I come into a relationship, I bring my own stuff into that relationship.

但在分手的情况下，即使像你说的那样，这并不是大家预期中的事，人们仍可能对资产如何被处理和分割感到意外。

But in the event of an in the event of a separation, even if it's not, like you say, on the cards, people might get a nasty surprise about how their assets are then treated and divvied up, if you like.

那么，即使是一对事实伴侣，也就是没有法律婚姻的伴侣，他们在现实中会遇到哪些障碍呢，基拉？

So even if someone's a de facto couple, so not legally married, what kind of roadblocks are they running into, Kira?

我来给你举个例子。

So I'll give you an example.

我来给你举个例子。

I'll I'll give you an example.

比如，我们来看这对年轻情侣的情况。

Like, let's take this younger couple scenario.

他们住在一起。

They live together.

他们分摊账单，但保留各自的银行账户，因为他们重视独立性。

They split their bills, but they keep their separate bank accounts because they value their independence.

他们的关系本质上是两个个体的合作，但在资产和金钱方面保持着高度的自主权。

And their relationship is really about two individuals partnering together, but, like, with a lot of autonomy over their their assets and and their money.

尽管他们保持了财务独立，但如果他们的关系符合法律上对事实伴侣关系的认定标准——这在《家庭法》下等同于婚姻——那么一旦这对伴侣分手，他们原本认为属于各自的资产，都有可能被纳入共同财产池，并以他们未曾预料的方式进行分割。

Now, even though they've kept their finances separate, if their relationship meets the legal threshold of a de facto relationship, which for all intents and purposes is the same as being married under the Family Law Act, if that couple were to separate, then all of what they understood to be their separate their separate assets could potentially go into a pool and be divided up in a way that they weren't expecting.

稍后您将听到一位家庭法律律师的见解，但在这里，与我同在的还有记者谢莉·霍顿，她基于自身经历，是财务独立的坚定倡导者。

You will hear from a family a family law solicitor in just a tick, but also here with me is Shelly Horton, a journalist and a big advocate for financial independence based on your own experience, Shelly.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

我的第一次婚姻破裂了，因为当时我们只有联名账户和一张联名信用卡，我离开的第一晚不得不向朋友借钱住酒店。

My first marriage broke down, and because all we had was joint accounts and a joint credit card, I had to borrow money from a girlfriend to go to a hotel the first night that I left.

那种被彻底掏空的感觉深深影响了我，让我意识到自己根本没有任何财务独立性。

And that sort of being stripped bare like that really affected me and made me realize that I just didn't have any financial independence.

所以现在在我这段非常幸福的婚姻中，我仍然保留着自己的账户。

So now in my present marriage, which is a very happy one, I still have my own account.

而且，是的，我和丈夫有一个共同账户用于日常开销，但我觉得拥有自己的钱意味着我可以自己做决定。

And, yes, I have a joint account with my husband for everyday expenses, but I feel like having my own money means that I can make my own decisions.

如果关系出了问题，我也无需征得任何人的同意。

And if something goes pear shaped, I don't have to ask anyone's permission.

你是怎么和谢莉谈这个的，当你和现任丈夫认真交往的时候？

How did you have that conversation, Shelly, when you were getting serious with your current husband?

哦，唐和我非常善于沟通，所以他了解我的背景。

Oh, Don and I are very good at communicating, and so he knew my background.

他知道我上一段婚姻中发生了什么，以及我为什么会有这样的感受。

He knew how exactly what had gone down in my previous marriage and why I felt that way.

所以他一点都不会感到受威胁。

So he in no way feels threatened.

他知道我有一个账户，但他并不知道里面有多少钱。

He knows I have an account, but he does not know how much is in there.

我决定往里面存多少钱，我们也会往共同账户里存入相同数额的钱。

I make the decision of how much I put in there, and we put in the same amount into our joint accounts.

对我来说，也许我只是想留点额外的钱去宠溺我的侄子们，或者想买一双贵得离谱的鞋子——那种连别人都不会同意买的鞋子。

So for me, it might just be that I wanna have some extra money to spoil my nephews, or I wanna buy a ridiculously expensive pair of shoes that no human being would actually, you know, agree to.

但这让我非常开心，所以我用我的钱来做这些事。

So but it's something that makes me really happy, so I use my money for that.

我只是觉得，这摆脱了必须征得许可的传统角色，甚至不必把一切都摆在明面上。

I just I think it takes away that traditional role of having to ask permission or or even, like, just have everything out in the open.

我有个朋友也有这样的账户，但不幸的是，她后来遭遇了家庭暴力。

I've got, you know, a girlfriend who had an account like that, and and then, unfortunately, she got into a situation of domestic violence.

她就是用这笔钱带着自己和孩子们逃出来的。

And she's used that money to help her and the kids escape.

所以这笔钱可能涉及非常严肃的用途，但也可以仅仅用于度假、犒赏自己和送礼物。

So it can have a very serious side to things, but it can also just be used for holidays, treats, and and presents.

它并不一定要带有不良意图。

Like, it doesn't have to be nefarious.

您正在收听ABC国家广播电台的《生活要事》。

You're listening to Life Matters here on ABC Radio National.

我是特根·泰勒，正在与澳大利亚家庭研究学院的基拉·达根以及谢莉·霍顿交谈，谢莉现在和丈夫采用混合账户模式——联合账户与个人账户并存，因为她曾经历过一段失败的婚姻，才深刻意识到这是她真正需要的方式。

I'm Tegan Taylor chatting with Kira Duggan from the Australian Institute of Family Studies and Shelly Horton, who has a mix of joint and separate accounts with her husband now because she learned the hard way that that was what she needed when a previous marriage broke down.

今天早上，我非常想深入了解你们夫妻之间的财务安排。

I would love to stick my nose into the money side of your relationship this morning.

如果你愿意分享的话，我很想知道你们是否有联合账户、个人账户，以及你们是如何管理财务的。

If you're I'd love to know if you've got joint accounts, separate accounts, how you manage money in your relationship if you're happy to share.

你们正在给我发短信。

You're sending me your texts.

有一个人问：如果你们处于一种可能被认定为事实伴侣关系的状态，但你们从未在报税表或遗嘱中正式声明过这种关系，该怎么办？

One person says, what if you live in what would probably be a de facto relationship, but you've never declared it as that on your tax forms nor in your will?

另一个人则提出疑问或评论：在伴侣去世的情况下，任何联合银行账户都会被冻结。

Another one's asking whether or is making the comment that the in the event of a partner dying, any joint bank account will be frozen.

拥有个人账户更容易在亲人去世后迅速取出资金来处理后事。

Easier to have separate accounts to easily access money to bury loved ones.

为了帮助我梳理一下这方面法律问题，我们请来了家庭法律事务所的创始律师安托内拉·桑德森。

Well, to come and help me unpack some of the legal side of things here is Antonella Sanderson, founding solicitor at Family Law Matters.

安托内拉，能跟我们说说刚才听众通过短信发来的这个问题吗？

Antonella, tell me about this question that we've just received on the text line.

如果你处于事实婚姻关系中，但从未正式声明过，法律是否会承认这种关系的存在，即使你从未明确命名它？

If you're in a de facto relationship, you haven't declared it as that, does the law see that as existing even if you've never named it as such?

早上好，泰根。

Good morning, Tegan.

是的。

Yes.

听我说。

Look.

从法律角度来看，关于事实婚姻关系，当我们讨论关系破裂时，关键的时间节点是两年。

Certainly, from the perspective of the law and de facto relationships, when we're talking about relationship breakdown, the magic number is that two year point.

如果你们两人以真实的家庭生活形式共同生活了两年，或者有其他例外情况，比如你们育有子女，或者一方对另一方的资产做出了巨大贡献。

If the two of you have been living together on a on a genuine domestic basis for two years, or there are some other outs on that if you have a child together or if someone has made a huge contribution to the other person's assets.

假设第一个人出资20美元，为第二个人的房子安装了新厨房，这就构成了重大贡献。

Let's say if person one ends up investing $20, putting a new kitchen into person two's house, then that would be a significant contribution.

因此，你也可以通过两年规则获得认定。

So you can get in under the two year rule as well.

但总的来说，基拉之前说的没错。

But by and large, what Kira said before was right.

两年是关键的时间节点。

Two years is the magic number.

所以，即使你没有在报税表上注明，也无关紧要。

So it doesn't matter if you've listed it on your tax forms.

即使你在遗嘱中没有提及对方，也无关紧要。

It doesn't matter if you've left the person out on your will.

从关系破裂的角度来看，法律体系将介入，为任何寻求财产调整或财产分割的人提供支持。

From a relationship breakdown perspective, the the legal system will step in and be available there for anyone who's then seeking to look at a property adjustment, a property a property divide.

所以，安东内拉，我们今天听到了澳大利亚家庭研究学院发布的新研究。

So, Antonella, we're hearing this new research from the Australian Institute of Family Studies out today.

人们将财务保持独立。

People are keeping their finances separate.

他们不太可能结婚，但这并不意味着如果关系破裂，他们就不会陷入棘手的境地。

They're less likely to be married, but that doesn't mean that they're not maybe gonna get into a tricky situation if their relationship does break down.

在这种情况下，人们该如何提前知道该怎么做呢？

How do people know going in what they should be doing if if this is the case?

哦，你看。

Oh, look.

这是我经常看到的最大误解：人们以为我们没结婚，所以我的就是我的，但法律根本不是这样运作的。

It's a constant biggest misconception I see people thinking, oh, we're not married, so what's mine is mine, but it's just not how the law works.

事实伴侣几乎与已婚夫妇受到同等对待。

De facto couples are treated almost the same as married couples.

所以在关系开始时，我最希望在我办公室门口挂出的巨大警示牌就是：要知情。

So at the beginning of a relationship, the real the big red flag I wish I had out the front of my office is be informed.

这真的非常重要。

It it's so important.

你知道吗，你正在做出人生中重大的决定。

You know, you you make really big decisions of your life.

比如买房或购买昂贵的投资组合，你通常会去寻求专业建议。

For example, buying a house or buying an expensive investment portfolio, and you'd often go and get advice about that.

你会咨询房贷经纪人、会计师和理财规划师。

You'd speak to a mortgage broker, speak to an accountant, speak to a financial planner.

但当我们做出人生中最重要的决定之一——进入一段关系，并以某种方式融合彼此的情感和财务时，即使我们从技术上保持财务分离，却很少有人认真考虑过要事先了解清楚。

But when we're making one of the biggest decisions about our lives of joining into a relationship and mingling our emotions and our finances in some way or another, even if we're keeping our finances technically separate, there's not much thought being put into being informed.

所以，在关系开始之前，去咨询一下专业人士，了解清楚：会发生什么？我们的权利是什么？我们需要考虑哪些问题？

So going and having some advice at the front end about, well, look, what does happen and what are our rights and what do we need to consider?

我真的希望每个人在进入一段关系之前都能这么做。

I really wish everyone would do that before joining into a relationship.

所以，安东内拉，我们听到雪莉讲述她之前婚姻的痛苦经历，那时所有财务都混在一起，当她需要离开时，情况变得非常艰难。

So Antonella, we're hearing Shelly tell telling her story of being pretty badly burnt, you know, previous marriage with everything was joined up, and when she needed to leave, it was very difficult for her to.

现在她和丈夫各自拥有独立的可支配财务，同时也有一些共同财务。

Now she and her husband have separate separate discretionary finances and then some joint finances.

如果关系破裂了，拥有一个独立的资金账户就足够了吗？

Is having that separate fund enough when if if a relationship did break down?

不够。

No.

在这种情况下，银行账户、房产、养老金或股票投资组合登记在谁的名下并不重要。

So what happens in that scenario is it doesn't matter whose name the bank accounts are in or the home or the superannuation or the share portfolio.

它可能登记在谢莉的名下。

It could be in Shelly's name.

也可能登记在她丈夫的名下。

It could be in her husband's name.

也可能登记在双方共同名下。

It could be in joint names.

这真的无关紧要。

It really doesn't matter.

一旦出现关系破裂的情况，我们基本上会把所有财产都纳入考量。

The minute there is a situation of relationship breakdown, we pretty much take everything.

我们通常会说，如果我们把所有资产都卖掉，还清所有债务，剩下的钱是多少，包括养老金？

We we we notionally say, well, if we were to sell everything, pay out all the debts, what money is left over, including the super?

即使养老金从技术上讲不是现金，我们也会把它算进来。

We we pull the super in even though it's technically not cash.

所以我们把所有这些都归入一个大池子里，然后根据每个人所做的贡献以及各自的未来需求，来确定每个人应得的份额。

So we pull all of that into one bucket, and then we work out what's fair for each person to come out of this bucket based on the contributions they've made and the future needs of each person as well.

所以这一切都基于公平性，但这确实是个问题，因为它破坏了确定性。

So it's it's it's all based on a fairness sort of thing, which which is a problem because it kills the certainty.

对吧？

Right?

我们没有一个一刀切的50比50之类的固定规则。

We don't have a blanket rule of fifty fifty or anything like that.

所以我们有一个高度注重公平的体系，但随之而来的是一些不确定性。

So we have a a a system that's highly attuned to fairness, but with that comes a bit of uncertainty.

这里是ABC国家广播电台的《生命意义》。

It's Life Matters here on ABC Radio National.

我今天与家庭法律事务所的创始律师安东内拉·桑德森、澳大利亚家庭研究学院的基拉·杜根，以及经历过一段涉及财务纠纷的复杂关系破裂的谢莉·霍顿在一起。

I'm with Antonella Sanderson, founding solicitor at Family Law Matters, as well as Kira Duggan from the Australian Institute of Family Studies, and Shelly Horton, who has lived through a pretty messy breakdown a breakdown of a relationship where finances were involved.

今天早上，我想听听你们的故事，已经收到了大量短信反馈。

And I'm asking you for your stories this morning, lots and lots of texts on this.

亚历山德拉说，我们不是年轻夫妻，已经在一起八年了。

Alexandra says, we're not a younger couple and have been partnered for eight years.

我们有两个年幼的孩子。

We have two small children.

我们的账户是分开的。

Our accounts are separate.

所有财务都是独立的。

All finances separate.

我的伴侣因为之前的婚姻非常独立，以至于我为我和孩子购买了家庭医疗保险，而他有自己的保险。

Partner is very independent due to previous marriage to the point that I have family health insurance for myself and the kids, and he has his own.

KJ说，我们自1992年结婚以来，中间有过三年分居，如果我们有共同财务，这段关系根本撑不下去。

KJ says, married since 1992 with a three year intermission, if we had joint finances, our relationship would not have lasted.

我们一开始就是这样做的，但很快意识到我们在财务上并不兼容，于是决定按自己的方式来。

We started that way, but we soon realized we were financially incompatible and we can do things our way.

我们中有一方是挥霍型的。

One of us was a spender.

另一方则是谨慎的储蓄者，所以分开的银行账户救了我们。

One was a cautionary saver, so separate bank accounts saved the day.

每人负责支付某些开销和账单，收入较低的储蓄者可能支付得更多，而收入较高的挥霍者则支付得较少。

Each pays for certain expenses and bills with the lower earner, the saver, probably paying more, and the higher earner, the spender, paying less.

我们自2012年起就拥有了自己的房子，这种财务上的自由与独立让这段关系得以成功并长久维持。

We've owned our home since 2012, and this financial freedom and independence for both parties has led to the success and longevity of the relationship.

基拉，金钱是我们关系中如此根本的一部分，对吧？

Kira, money is such a fundamental part of our relationship, isn't it?

确实如此。

It sure is.

确实如此。

It sure is.

这可能会带来很多压力，就像我们之前说的，如果在某个关键时刻出现意外状况的话。

It can cause a lot of stress, like we were saying before, if if there's a nasty surprise at a at a particular juncture.

所以，谢莉，我很想听听你基于自己的经验已经采取了一些非常周全的预防措施。

So, Shelly, I'm interested to hear you've obviously taken some precautions very thoughtfully based on your experience.

听到基拉和安东内拉说你们的独立银行账户在关系破裂时可能得不到保障，你有什么感受？

Listening to Kira and Antonella say that that separate bank account of yours perhaps isn't protected if your relationship broke down, how is that making you feel?

我觉得他们本末倒置了。

So I think that they're they're putting the the cart before the horse.

就我而言，我完全可以在将来交给律师来处理财务问题。

As far as I'm concerned, I'm fine to sort out the money with the lawyers down the track.

那需要好几年的时间。

That takes years.

但如果我需要离开这个家，我想拥有自己的钱，所以我一定要有自己的独立账户。

But if I need to get out of a household, I wanna have my own money, so therefore, I'm going to have my separate account.

因此，我会建议所有听到这段话的女性都开设一个独立账户，这样在任何时候你都可以随时离开，而无需征得任何人的同意。

So I would advise any any woman listening to have a separate account that you can, at any moment, get up and leave without having to ask anyone's permission.

所以，是的，当我真正经历离婚时，我们当然把钱分了。

So, yes, when I did then go through the divorce, of course, we divided up the money.

但对我来说，那个第一晚，当你必须离开时，你绝对不想去请求、依赖，或者对一些人来说，为了安全起见。

But for me, that first night, that first time when you had to leave, you do not wanna be asking or let or for some people, for safety.

你不想用你的信用卡，因为那样他们会知道你在哪里。

You don't wanna use your credit card because then they'll know where you are.

所以，拥有一些属于你自己的钱至关重要。

So having some money that's yours is vital.

你可以在法庭上之后再处理所有事情，但首先要离开，确保安全，这可能只是情感上的安全。

You can sort it all out in the courts later, but get out, be safe, and it might just be emotionally safe.

这可能只是离开，让你知道自己已经迈出了下一步。

It might just be leaving so that you know that you've made the next step.

所以，基拉，回到这份报告，关键点是什么？

So, Kira, coming back to the report, what is the upshot?

你希望人们从中学到什么？

What do you hope people take away from this?

所以，这份报告其实更像是一个引发思考的起点。

So look, the report's really a bit of a thought starter.

对吧？

Right?

我们只是想把一些有趣的数据呈现出来，并真正提出一个问题：当代的关系和实践在多大程度上应该反映在法律中？

We're we're just trying to get some of these interesting stats out there and really posing the question to what extent should contemporary relationships and practices be reflected in the law?

你知道，如果法律对所谓的伴侣理想采取非常传统的方式，比如传统婚姻，一切五五分。

You know, if if the law takes a very traditional approach to what we sometimes refer to as the partnership ideal, you know, that traditional marriage and everything's fifty fifty.

如果我们看到这种模式在衰退，而其他类型的关系在增加，那么法律在未来的作用是什么？

If we're seeing a decline in that and we're seeing an increase in other types of relationships, What is the role of the law as we go forward?

我们今天并不是想解决这场争论，而只是想把这个问题提出来。

And we're not trying to settle that debate today, but really just trying to, I guess, get that out there.

对听众的行动呼吁是，正如安托内拉之前所说，确保你了解与你的关系相关的资讯。

And the call to action for people who are listening is to just, as Antonella said before, just just make sure that you're aware of the information that's relevant to your relationship.

网上有很多非常好的资源。

There's a lot of really good resources online.

Family Relationships Online 是一个非常好的政府网站。

Family Relationships Online's a really good government website.

如果你只是想了解更多关于你自身情况的信息，我真的很鼓励大家去查看一下。

If you're just looking for a bit more information about your circumstances, really encourage people to just, yeah, just to take a look.

所以，基拉，如果你负担不起律师来帮助你处理这些问题，你推荐人们去哪里获取有关法律及其在分手时如何适用的信息呢？

So, Kira, if you can't afford a lawyer to help you navigate this, are there specific places you recommend people go for information about the law and how it applies to them if they separate?

是的。

Yeah.

看，如果我可以大胆地为我们的报告做个宣传，因为我们确实在附录中列出了一系列资源。

Look, I think if if I could be so cheeky as to give a plug for our report because we do list a bunch of resources in the back end.

但其中最关键的是，如果人们手头没有的话，就是那个 Family Relationships Online 网站。

But key of those, if people don't have it to hand, is that family relationships online website.

正如我所说，这是一个政府资源，是很好的首选入口。

Like I said, it's a government resource and is a good first port of call.

再次感谢你今天上午的分享。

Thank you again for your text this morning.

乔安说：嗨，泰根。

Joanne says, hi, Tegan.

请提醒人们，离婚后必须在一年内解决财务和财产问题。

Please remind people that they have to sort out finances and property within a year of being divorced.

我不知道这一点。

I didn't know this.

乔安说，离婚过程很简单，但现在我陷入了一场超时的诉讼，真希望当时有人告诉我。

Joanne says the divorce was straightforward, but now I am tangled up in an out of time court case and wishing that someone had told me.

另一个人说，我担心一些夫妻保持各自的银行账户，然后共同支付50.50美元的账单，而收入较低的一方会处于不利地位。

Another person says, I worry about couples keeping separate bank accounts and then paying $50.50 of bills, and then the member of the couple who is paid less is disadvantaged.

这种情况常常——但并非总是——对女性产生负面影响。

Often, but not always, this negatively affects women.

约翰说，我和妻子有两个账户，一个共同账户和她个人的账户。

John says, my wife and I have two accounts, a joint one and her own.

她的钱归她，我的钱归我们共同所有。

What's hers is hers, and what's mine is ours.

安东内拉，简短地说，对于正在听这段内容并感到惊讶的人，你有什么建议吗？

Antonella, briefly, what's your parting advice to people who are listening to this and going, gosh, I didn't realize this.

我该怎么做才能保护自己？

What should I do to protect myself?

听好了。

Look.

这里有一个选择，我们已经讨论了很多关于这个制度的不确定性。

There is an option out there, and we've talked a lot about the uncertainty of the system.

是的，确实存在一个问题，人们会过来说：你看。

And, yes, there is a bit of a an issue there where people come and say, look.

我以为这一切都该属于我。

I thought all of this was going to be mine.

为什么我的养老金还会被主张权利？

How can there be a claim against my superannuation?

我才是那个付出所有工作的人。

I was the one that did all the work.

为什么这个会受到质疑？

Why is that under fire?

如果你想要一些确定性，有一个非常棒的工具可用。

If you want some certainty, there is a fantastic tool that's available.

那就是婚前协议，如果正确签署，它们是有效的。

It's a prenup, and they do work if they're done correctly.

这可不是去自动售货机随便拿个模板，填上名字就行的。

It's not as if you can just go to a vending machine, pop out a template, and put your names on it.

它必须以特定的方式完成。

It has to be done in a particular way.

但如果你追求确定性，比如当人们进入一段关系时，以某种方式安排财务，最终目的是想保留自己的财产，那么在关系破裂时，婚前协议就是他们的首选工具。

But if you're looking for certainty, so if you've got scenarios where people are going into a relationship and they structure their finances in a certain way with the ultimate aim that they want to keep their finances, That way, if there's a relationship breakdown, the prenup is their tool of choice.

因此，我会建议：第一，要知情；第二，如果你有特定情况需要确定性，可以考虑签订婚前协议。

So I would I would recommend, a, be informed, and, b, if there is a particular scenario where you're looking for certainty, consider a prenup.

非常感谢大家参与我的访谈。

Well, thank you all so much for joining me.

基拉·达根是澳大利亚家庭研究学院的研究主任。

Kira Duggan is research director of the Australian Institute of Family Studies.

安托内拉·桑德森是家庭法律事务所的创始律师。

Antonella Sanderson is founding solicitor at Family Law Matters.

衷心感谢记者谢莉·霍顿分享你的故事，让我们得以一窥你关系中的金钱规则，也感谢你发来的短信。

And a big thank you to journalist Shelly Horton for sharing your story and letting us peek into the money rules in your relationship, and thanks for your texts as well.

许多人正在努力寻求如何让事情更公平。

Lots of people grappling with how to make things fair.

我们的家庭，有人说，由一位继父、一位亲生父母和两个孩子组成。

Our family, says one, is one step parent, one biological parent, and two kids.

共同开销由大家分担。

Common expenses are shared.

继父承担三分之一，亲生父母承担三分之二；其他开销，比如红酒、家电等，则五五分，很难说什么是公平的。

One third step parent, two thirds biological, other expenses, wine, white goods, etcetera, a half half, hard to know what's fair.

请继续关注。

Well, stick around.

接下来，在ABC国家广播电台的《人生大事》节目中，我们将探讨：痴呆症如何改变了您与亲人曾经制定的长期计划？

Coming up next here on Life Matters on ABC Radio National, How has dementia changed the long term plans you might have made with your loved ones?

因为接下来要见面的两个人说，旅行和痴呆症并不必然是相互排斥的。

Because the two people you're about to meet say traveling and dementia don't have to be mutually exclusive.

这只是个普通的郊区，但却隐约传来有人在玩恶作剧的动静。

It's just your average suburb, but there's a whiff of someone playing silly duckers.

雷格·格伦迪的童装和毛绒玩具正在神秘失踪。

Reg Grundy's kids clothes and stuffed toys are going missing.

这是列奥纳多·达·潘奇。

It's Leonardo da Pinci.

嗨。

Hi.

我是安妮·琼斯医生，我为我的播客系列《自然通缉犯》成功采访到了那只犯罪猫——窃贼大师列奥纳多·达·潘奇。

I'm doctor Anne Jones, and I've secured an interview with Leonardo da Pinci, the criminal cat, thieving mastermind for my podcast series, Nature's Most Wanted.

什么？？

What the duck?

每周日收听ABC广播国家台，或随时通过ABC Listen应用收听。

Sundays on ABC Radio National plus anytime on ABC Listen.

多年来，我做过大量关于痴呆症的报道，在与患有此病的人或其家人交谈时，有一件事始终萦绕在我心头。

I've done a fair bit of reporting on dementia over the years, and in all the conversations with people I've had living with this condition or loving someone who does, there's one thing that really sticks in my mind.

对于许多共同面对这一诊断的夫妻来说，最令人震惊的第一件事是痴呆症如何改变了你们的关系。

For many couples facing that diagnosis together, the first big shock is how dementia changes your relationship.

你们走进医生诊所时还是伴侣，离开时却已变成病人与照护者。

You enter your doctor's clinic as partners, and you leave as patient and carer.

你们曾经共同憧憬的未来——那些旅行，你们一直珍视的晚年生活图景——突然间似乎变得遥不可及。

And the future you'd imagine together, the trips, the version of your later years that you'd both held onto can suddenly feel like it's slipping out of reach.

但假如并非完全如此呢？假如这一切并不必如此呢？

But what is it what if it doesn't have to be, not completely?

今天，你们将听到这枚硬币的两面：一位痴呆症患者和一位照顾患病伴侣的人的故事。

Today, you're gonna hear from two people on either side of that coin, someone living with dementia and someone who cared for their partner through it.

他们都热衷于在患有痴呆症的情况下充分享受生活，对他们而言，这意味着在确诊后依然寻找环游世界的方式。

They are both passionate about living life to the fullest with dementia, and for them, that meant finding ways to travel the world post diagnosis.

我也很想听听你们对此的看法。

And I would love to hear from you on this.

如果你正在经历痴呆症，或者正在照顾患有此病的人，我很想知道这如何改变了你的生活计划。

If you're living with dementia or caring for someone who's going through this, I'd love to know how it's modified your life plans.

你是否把某些事情搁置了，还是它反而促使你完成了那个一直梦想实现的愿望清单？

Did you put certain things on hold, or did it maybe push you to tick off that bucket list item you'd always dreamed of?

今天和我在一起的是多拉·格雷夫斯医生，她是一位痴呆症支持倡导者，曾与丈夫唐合著了一本关于照顾他的书，还有来自澳大利亚痴呆症协会的吉姆·罗杰斯。

Here with me is doctor Debra Graves, a dementia support advocate who's cowritten a book about caring for her husband, Don, and Jim Rogers from Dementia Australia.

他在被诊断出早发性痴呆后，开始列出了自己的旅行愿望清单。

He started a travel bucket list after his own diagnosis of early onset dementia.

欢迎你们两位。

Welcome to you both.

早上好。

Morning.

谢谢。

Thank you

非常感谢。

very much.

吉姆，我想先从你开始。

Jim, I I would love to start with you.

你被诊断出患有痴呆症时，才五十岁左右。

You were only in your fifties when you were diagnosed with dementia.

我只能想象那对你来说是多么巨大的打击。

I can only imagine what that shock would have felt like for you.

哦，这简直令人崩溃。

Oh, it was devastating.

你根本不会预料到神经科医生会说出这样的话，但最终你必须接受这个现实。

You really don't get preparation for that to come out of your neurologist's mouth, but it's something you've got to come to terms with eventually.

一旦尘埃落定，从诊断带来的黑暗情绪中走出来后，你就会开始做些研究，然后逐渐意识到，除了让自己保持最佳状态、尽一切努力延缓病情发展，并列好你的愿望清单外，别无他法。

And once the dust settles and you come out of the dark feelings of that diagnosis, you start to do some research and then you start to realize that there is nothing you can do other than get yourself in best shape possible and do everything to try and prevent the progression and then get your bucket list sorted.

所以，那就是你的愿望清单了，对吧？

So that was what that was your kind of thing bucket list.

我们走吧。

Let's go.

上面都有些什么？

What was on it?

哦，你看。

Oh, look.

有太多事情了。

There's so many things.

不仅仅是旅行。

Not only travel.

还有很多想和家人朋友一起做的事，但我们确实列出了一个相当详尽的旅行目的地清单，想要一一完成。

There was lots of things with family and friends that we wanted to do, but we did get quite an extensive list of travel destinations that we wanted to tick off.

所以我们正在慢慢但坚定地完成这些行程，它们都成为了无比美好而珍贵的经历。

And so we're working our way through those slowly and surely, but they've been incredible and great experiences.

最近让你印象最深的是哪一次？

What was your most recent one that sticks out?

我们刚从洛杉矶回来。

Well, just got back from LA.

我们在那里待了五周，把很多事情都挤进了这次旅行。

So we just had five weeks there and we crammed a hell of a lot into that trip.

我们去了加利福尼亚、洛杉矶、拉斯维加斯、旧金山、巴哈马和加勒比海地区。

We did California, LA, Las Vegas, San Francisco, The Bahamas, Caribbean.

这次旅行我们安排得非常满，真的全力以赴了。

We pushed a lot into that trip and we did it, you know, we went all out.

所以我们玩得非常开心。

So we had a lot of fun.

听起来真糟。

Sounds awful.

确实是这样。

It it was.

黛布拉，当你丈夫唐被诊断出患有痴呆症时，你也做了类似的决定。

Debra, you made a similar decision when your husband, Don, was diagnosed with dementia.

旅行在你们的关系中占重要地位吗？

Was travel a big part of your relationship?

确实如此。

It was, actually.

是的。

Yeah.

我丈夫唐以前是个商人，经常因公出差，但当我们相识后，我们也开始频繁旅行，而且真的非常享受这个过程。

My husband had Don had been a businessman and traveled a lot for for work, but when we met, we started traveling a lot also, and we just really, really enjoyed it.

当唐被诊断出患有痴呆症时，我读了很多书，上面说要让患者留在熟悉的环境中，不要带他们离开。

And when Don was diagnosed with dementia, I started reading all those books that said you needed to keep people in their own environment and don't take them out of their environment.

我一开始照做了，但唐对此一点也不开心。

And I started doing that, but Don wasn't happy doing that at all.

于是我扔掉了那些书，决定按自己的方式来。

And I threw all those books away and said, I'm going to do it my own way.

因为他习惯了旅行，也热爱旅行，我们就继续这样做了。

And because he was used to traveling and he loved it, we just continued to do so.

我们一直这样做到他去世前三个月。

And we continued to do so till three months before he died.

这太棒了。

It was fantastic.

你担心偏离那些建议吗？

You scared about veering away from that advice?

我确实有一定程度的担心。

I was, to some extent.

我必须承认，当我说我们要去国外时，唐的神经科医生看我的眼神就像我疯了一样。

I must confess that Don's neurologist looked at me like I'd sort of gone mad when I said we're going overseas.

但他最终似乎也非常感兴趣，我认为他意识到这确实对唐产生了很大影响。

But he ultimately was really interested, I think, as well, and realized that it really did make a difference to Don.

我认为，由于做了他真正热爱的事情，他保持清醒和连接的状态要久得多。

And I think he remained so much more present and connected for a lot longer, I think, as a consequence of doing things that he really loved.

我的意思是，你永远无法确定，对吧？

I mean, you can never know, right?

如果你没这么做，会发生什么你永远无从得知。

You never know what would have happened if you hadn't done that.

但你的直觉在告诉你

But your instinct is telling you that

那是对的。

it was good.

没错。

That's right.

正是如此。

Exactly.

是的。

Yes.

这显然不适合每个人。

It's not for everybody, obviously.

如果你自己从来不是个旅行者，你也不会想开始这么做。

If you haven't been a traveler yourself, you wouldn't want to start doing it.

但对于像我们这样的人，这简直太棒了。

But for people like us, it was fantastic.

所以，吉姆，我很希望你能跟我详细讲讲一些实际操作，因为我觉得这并不排除这种可能性。

So, Jim, I'd love you to sort of talk me through some of the practicalities because I imagine it doesn't rule it out.

显然，你们双方都在各自的关系中成功做到了这一点。

Clearly, you both have managed to do this in your respective relationships.

但我可以想象，你们一定设置了一些保障措施，让这个过程对你们来说更轻松或更容易。

But I could imagine that you're putting certain safeguards in place to make it an easy process or easier for yourself.

当然。

Absolutely.

对我来说，我很幸运，因为我的丈夫泰勒非常有条理，负责安排大部分旅行计划。

For me, I'm very lucky because Tyler, my husband, is very organized and takes control of a lot of the travel plans.

行程安排得非常周密。

The itineraries are really carefully mapped out.

这样我就有足够的时间在密集的活动之间休息，诸如此类。

So as there's enough time for me to have rest time in between doing a lot of activities, things like that.

以前，我总是负责办理登机手续这类事情。

And, you know previously I would be the one leading the way with check-in and that sort of stuff.

但现在我发现这些都很困难，所以我一般都跟在他后面，由他来决定去哪里、该做什么。

But now I find all of that hard and so I generally follow him around a little bit more and he negotiates where to go and what we've got to do.

但我有个大问题，就是总是丢三落四。

But I'm a nightmare in the fact that I forget things all of the time.

把手机落在出租车里。

Leave phones in cabs.

这次旅行，我在机场挥手让出租车司机走掉时，把随身行李忘在了车里，而那辆车要开一个小时才回去。

I waved off the taxi driver at the airport on this trip with my hand luggage in the cab on an hour journey back.

于是泰尔不得不跟一个英语很差的墨西哥人沟通，才把随身行李拿回来。

And Ty had to chat to a Mexican guy who spoke very little English to navigate the hand luggage back.

就在那之前，他还让我拿着护照两分钟。

And he literally give me the passports to hold for two minutes before that.

比如我们刚去悉尼参加我正在做的播客，我们在休息室坐着，他说：‘准备登机了吗？’

So the things like that and we just went to Sydney for the podcast that I'm doing and we sat in the lounge and he said, you ready to board?

他问我：‘你的行李箱呢？’

And he said, where's your case?

我当时就说：‘我不知道。’

And I was I was like, I I don't know.

他只好跑去找安检人员，结果行李箱就在那儿。

And he had to run to security and there it was.

我唯一要做的就是把随身行李放进传送带，让它通过安检。

The only thing I'd got to do is is put the carry on in the tub and it go through.

就连现在，我都忘了。

And even now, I'd forgot.

所以事情就这样从你脑子里消失了，这太荒谬了，因为这些可是大事啊，你知道的，你根本想不到自己会忘，毕竟你本该好好照看这些物品的。

So it's like things just drop out from you and it's ridiculous because they're big things, you know, and you wouldn't imagine that you would forget because you're supposed to really look after that item.

事情就是这样的。

That's how it is.

黛布拉正拼命地点头。

Debra is nodding so furiously.

当然。

Absolutely.

你脑海中浮现出哪些趣事？

What anecdotes are running through your mind?

哦，我觉得也是。

Oh, I think likewise.

唐过去总是忘东西，他还会故意把钥匙和护照藏起来，然后我们就找不到了。

Don used to forget things all the time, and he would actually try and he'd hide his keys and he'd hide his passport, and then we couldn't find it.

所以，有时候这种情况也确实挺麻烦的。

So, that was really quite difficult sometimes as well sort of thing.

但我觉得自己也逐渐接手了，因为我觉得最重要的是确保一切妥当。

But, I think I just did take over as well, because I think that was the important thing to be able to make sure.

对他来说安全才是旅行中最关键的部分，我相信这一点毫无疑问。

And for him to be safe was the most important part of the travel, I think that's for sure.

所以，你确实得像长了后眼一样时刻留意。

So, you did have to have eyes in the back of your head.

我以前有时会吃安眠药，但之后我再也不吃了，因为在飞机上我必须保持清醒，确保他不会到处乱走之类的事情。

I used to sometimes take a sleeping tablet, but I was on a never again afterwards, because I needed to be alert on the plane just to make sure that he wasn't wandering around and things like that sort of thing.

但这一切都进行得非常顺利。

But that worked out really well.

但每个人都非常乐于助人。

But everybody was very helpful.

我觉得我真正发现的是，人们对这件事都非常友善。

I think that's what I actually found, people were lovely in relation to it.

当我们刚开始旅行时，我可能没有第一时间告诉别人唐患有痴呆症。

Probably one thing I didn't do upfront when we first started traveling was to say to people that Don had dementia.

我认为，一旦他们了解到他患有痴呆症，事情就会容易很多，这毫无疑问。

And I think once they understood he had dementia, that made it a lot easier, that's for sure.

我还记得有一次，我们从某地乘飞机回来时，我刚去帮他上厕所，因为那时他的痴呆症已经相当严重了。

And I do remember one time when we were actually on the plane coming from somewhere, I'd just gone to toilet him because he was fairly advanced in his dementia at that stage of the game.

不知为什么，他突然决定坐在地板上，而不是坐在椅子上。

For some unknown reason, he decided to sit on the floor rather than in his chair.