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这件事是在你能想象到的最可疑的情况下发生的。
This will had come about in the most suspicious circumstances you could possibly imagine.
人去世后，谁得到什么，又由谁来决定？
Who gets what when someone dies, and who decides?
不当影响往往难以证明。
The difficulty with undue influence often is proving it.
欢迎收听由我Damian Carrick主持的《法律报告》特别系列节目《遗嘱：至死方休》。
Join me, Damian Carrick, for the Law Report special series on Wills, Over My Dead Body.
当事人觉得自己别无选择，但这很难证明。
The person felt like they had no option, but it's difficult to prove that.
想收听的话，搜索《法律报告》，留意《至死方休》系列。
To hear, search for The Law Report and look out for Over My Dead Body.
在ABC Listen或任何你获取播客的地方都能找到。
Find it on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.
这里是ABC广播国家台的墨尔本演播室，欢迎收听《生活要事》。
Coming to you from NAR Melbourne on ABC Radio National, this is Life Matters.
大家好。
Hello.
我是贝弗莉·王。
I'm Beverly Wang.
我手边已经准备好了纸巾，以防万一。
I've got my tissues on hand just in case.
我已经准备好了，也想让你们准备好，因为今天我们要聊的是关于死亡和临终的话题。
I'm prepared, and I wanna prepare you too because today, we're talking about death and dying.
我们都会死，但你对生前、临终和身后的事情考虑过多少呢？
We all die, but how much have you thought about what will happen before, during, and after?
对你来说，什么样的死亡才算圆满？
What does a good death mean to you?
你如何做准备，又和身边的人聊过哪些关于你心愿的话题？
How do you prepare, and what sorts of conversations are you having about your wishes?
四十分钟后，阿姨们会就一封关于暗恋的信给我们的写信人出主意。
And in forty minutes time, the Aunties counsel our letter writer over a secret crush.
我们来聊聊吧。
Let's talk.
不知道你们有没有看这周的《澳洲故事》。
I wonder if you watched this week's episode of Australian Story.
这期讲的是阿德莱德已故舞蹈家兼艺术总监罗兹·赫维，她在生命的最后两年里，在家人的陪伴下与运动神经元疾病抗争，最后选择了自愿安乐死。
It's about Roz Hervey, the late Adelaide based dancer and artistic director, and how she lived the final two years of her life with motor neuron disease supported by her family before opting for voluntary assisted dying.
在罗兹心中，一个好的死亡是她自己选择时间、地点，甚至决定化什么样的妆。
In Roz's version of a good death, she chose the time, location, and even what makeup to wear.
在《生活大事》里，我们本来打算聊聊什么是好的死亡，没想到这期《澳洲故事》正好播了这个故事。但时机太巧了，我想提一下，因为现在好像大家越来越关注、也越来越想聊关于有尊严地离世的话题。
On life matters, we decided to talk about the meaning of good death, not knowing this story was scheduled for Australian Story, But the timing is so apropos that I wanted to mention it because it seems we are in a moment where there's growing awareness and hunger to talk about dignity in death.
好的死亡可以有很多含义，从实际的身体需求到存在主义、精神层面和宗教方面的考量。
A good death can mean many things from practical and physical considerations to existential, spiritual, and religious concerns.
今天和我一起接听大家来电的这位嘉宾，她花了很多时间帮助人们弄清楚什么才是他们心中好的死亡。
And with me to take your calls is someone who has spent a lot of time helping people work out what a good death means to them.
杰基·贝利医生是一位非宗教背景的临终关怀从业者，为生命即将走到尽头的人提供精神关怀。
Doctor Jackie Bailey is a nonreligious pastoral care practitioner who provides spiritual care for people nearing the end of life.
她还是一名葬礼司仪，也是《活着的惊人好运：如何在日常生活中发现崇高》一书的作者。
She's also a funeral celebrant and author of The Outrageous Good Fortune of Living, How to Find the Sublime in Your Everyday Life.
你好，杰基。
Hi, Jackie.
你好，贝芙。
Good day, Bev.
杰基，你是怎么走上这条路，把帮助人们思考这个问题当作你一生的事业？
Jackie, how did you come to be the person helping people think about this as your life's work?
我想这很大程度上是因为我七岁那年，那是很久以前的事了，我的妹妹艾莉森被诊断出患有晚期癌症。
I think it largely because when I was seven years old, which was a long time ago now, my sister, Alison, was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
她后来还活了，你知道，又活了三十年。
And she went on to live for, you know, for another thirty years.
但当时，医生说她只能活一年。
But at the time, they gave her one year to live.
感觉我大半辈子都在等着姐姐去世，一直在为此做准备。
And it sort of feels like I spent most of my life waiting for my sister to die and sort of preparing for that.
后来我才知道，这叫做预期性悲伤。
And I found out later that that's called anticipatory grief.
你是在为还没去世但你知道终将离世的人，承受着悲伤和失去。
You're living with the grief and loss of someone who hasn't yet died, but you know is going to.
所以我花了很多时间思考死亡。
So I spent a lot of time just thinking about death.
整整三十年。
For thirty years.
对。
Yeah.
差不多吧。
There thereabouts.
从那么小的时候就开始。
From such a young age.
对。
Yeah.
所以，当我想着生活的时候，我从小是在宗教环境中长大的。
So when I think you're living and I was brought up religious.
我从小是天主教徒。
I was brought up Catholic.
我现在不再信仰那种制度化的宗教了，但那种信仰确实非常关注死亡、复活和救赎这些。
I'm not religious in that in that institutional way anymore, but that that is a faith that def definitely focuses on death and resurrection and salvation and all that sort of stuff.
所以，你知道的。
So, you know.
所以你花了三十年时间处于预期性悲伤的状态。
So you spent three decades in a state of anticipatory grief.
如果我可以问你姐姐的话，她那么小就知道自己的诊断，这对她理解死亡以及自己会如何离世有什么影响？
What about if I can ask your sister, knowing that she had that diagnosis and being so young, how did that mold her sense of understanding of death and how she would die?
对。
Yeah.
这个问题问得真好。
It's a it's a really good question.
我妹妹，那时候我才七岁。
My sister so I was seven.
她十岁。
She was 10.
你知道，她也还是个孩子。
You know, she was a kid as as well.
但她一生中大部分时间都非常虔诚。
But she was very religious all the way throughout her life by and large.
你知道，她也有过很长一段黑暗的时期，就像每个人一样。
You know, she had a few long time long dark periods of the soul as well, like everybody does.
但她非常虔诚，所以她基本上把自己的痛苦和即将到来的死亡都献给了上帝。
But she was very religious, and so she kind of offered up her suffering and offered up her potential impending death to God, essentially.
她写了很多宗教诗歌。
She wrote a lot of religious poetry.
她的病情确实恶化了，肿瘤让她在身体上、智力上还有认知上都受到了各种限制。
She did decline sort of her dis her tumor disabled her in various ways, sort of physically and with some intellectual disabilities and cognitive disabilities.
最后，她还患上了早发性痴呆。
And eventually, developed early onset dementia.
所以这些情况都会让一个人的身份认同和对生活、死亡的态度变得复杂。
So all of those things complicate, you know, a person's identity and approach to not just death, but life.
但我的姐姐艾莉森，她真的充满了爱和快乐。
But my sister, Alison, she really she was full of love and delight.
当然，她也有很多抱怨和让人烦的习惯。
I mean, was full of complaints and annoying habits as well.
但她就是那种特别喜欢拥抱你的人，而且非常享受当下的每一刻。
But she was a person who just loved to hug you and very much just delighted in the moment.
她有点像佛教里说的菩萨，或者我不确定这个说法是否准确，但她就是爱的战士。
She's kind of what in the Buddhist tradition, you might call like a bodhisattva or I'm not sure if that's quite the right term, but but just a warrior of love.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得她就是靠着这样一天一天熬过来的，因为她永远不知道，你知道的，什么时候会发生。
I think that's how she managed to get through one day at a time because she never knew, you know, when it might happen.
那么说到这个问题，什么是好的死亡？
So when it comes to this question, what is a good death?
对你来说，哪些价值观是最重要的？
What are the values that are central to you?
嗯，对我来说，想想自己的好死？
Well, for me, thinking about my own good death?
是的。
Yes.
是吗？
Is it yeah?
嗯，我脑子里立刻想到的是非常实际的事情，因为我看到很多人在那段时间里没有考虑过，你知道，如果你幸运的话，而且不是突然死亡，或者，你知道，取决于你对幸运的定义。
Well, my mind immediately turns to very practical things because what I see a lot is people not thinking about the period of time when, you know, if you're lucky and it's not, you know, a sudden death or, you know, depends on your definition of luck.
有些人想要突然死亡。
Some people want a sudden death.
但如果你幸运的话，能活到老，最后在床上离世，大多数人都会在床上走。
But if if you're lucky, you live long enough to be old and die in bed, like most people are gonna die in bed.
所以会有一段时间你不再有反应。
So there's gonna be a period when you're not responsive anymore.
这不代表你没有意识，只是你没法回应了。
It doesn't mean you're not conscious, but you're not able to, you know, respond.
对。
Yes.
比如我想喝水，或者别的什么。
I want a drink of water or whatever it might be.
所以当我想到善终时，我会考虑那段无法回应时期的实际问题。
So when I think about a good death, I think about the practicalities of that period of time when I'm not responsive.
首先，我会想到身体方面的安排。
First and foremost, I think about the physical stuff.
比如，我想开着电视吗？
So do I want the TV on?
不要。
No.
要不要放音乐？
Do I want music on?
有时候会，我会给你我的播放列表。
Some of the time, I'll give you my playlist.
你知道，有时候我想让人碰我吗？
You know, do I want people touching me sometimes?
不是一直都想。
Not all the time.
你知道，我想见任何宗教的神职人员吗？
You know, do do I want to see a religious minister of any kind?
还没定。
Jury's out.
我不确定，因为我是天主教徒长大的。
I'm not sure because I was raised Catholic.
有时候宗教确实会回来，至少是在仪式方面，不一定是在信仰上，而是在仪式带来的安慰上。
And sometimes religion does circle back at least in terms of the rituals, not necessarily in terms of the beliefs, but in terms of the comfort of the rituals.
我在养老院工作时，确实看到一些老人有这样的情况。
I've I've absolutely seen that with some of the residents that I work with in aged care.
那你有把这些写下来吗？
And do you have that written down?
你刚才提到播放列表，我就想到，人们有生育计划，里面有播放列表之类的。
You know, as you were mentioning a playlist, I mean, I thought, you know, people have birth plans where they have playlists and things like that.
你有一份清单，你一项项打勾。
You have this list that you ticked off.
但除了刚才说的，你有没有把这些写下来，放在某个地方，让周围的人知道那是你的计划或者你的愿望？
But aside from just now, have you articulated put it down somewhere where people around you know that is your plan or those are your wishes?
是的。
Yeah.
所以我真的建议你拿一个像马尼拉文件夹那样的东西，把这些写下来放进去。
So I really recommend you get, like, just like a Manila folder and write this stuff down in it.
有一个人，我们这儿有位本地长者，芭芭拉阿姨，她有个盒子，她今年90岁了。
One person there's a a local elder down here, Auntie Barbara, and she has a box she's 90 years old.
她餐桌上放着一个盒子，上面写着“出发”。
She has a box on her dining table, which is she's labeled departures.
她所有的愿望都放在里面，还有一些CD什么的。
And she's got all of her wishes in there, and she's got some CDs in there and whatever.
所以，是的，你得让别人知道。
So, yeah, you have to, you know, you have to let people know.
另外，我只有一个孩子，她基本上大半辈子都在看我做这一行。
Also, I have an only child, and she's, you know, seen me work in this space for most of her life now, really.
她真的很焦虑。
And she's, like, really anxious.
她也看过我帮别人操办葬礼。
She's also seen me organize other people's funerals.
她有点像是说，我可不想一个人做所有这些事。
And she's sort of like, I do not wanna have to do all of that by myself.
我也没有兄弟姐妹能帮我。
Like, I've got no siblings to help me out.
我就跟她说，别紧张，你看看你在跟谁说话。
I'm like, chill out, you know, look who you're talking to.
我当然会提前安排好这些。
Of course, I'm gonna prearrange this.
我会把所有事情都写下来，告诉你我具体想要什么。
Like, I'm gonna have it all written down for you exactly what I want.
我还没预付费用，因为我才49岁，其实我可能应该预付了，但预付葬礼费用有点像买金融产品。
Like, I haven't prepaid it yet because I'm 49 and I probably should actually, but that's kind of prepaying a funeral is a like, actually buying a financial product.
所以我还不太确定要不要这么做。
So I'm not a 100% sure about that yet.
但你完全可以现在就提前安排。
But you can absolutely prearrange it now.
你可以去见你的殡葬顾问，提前安排，比如具体说明你想要什么，比如你喜欢的音乐。
You can go see your funeral director and prearrange, like, say exactly what you want, you know, your music.
或者直接写下来，放在一个马尼拉文件夹里，然后在冰箱上贴个小纸条，写着我的文件夹在书桌最下面的抽屉里。
Or just write it down and put it in a Manila folder and have a little note on the fridge saying my folder is in, you know, my bottom desk drawer.
去拿吧。
Go get it.
嗯，
Well,
我们有很多电话打进来，那我们就接听吧。
we do have many calls coming in, so let's get to them.
欢迎收听来自堪培拉的路易丝，她所在的地区是恩古纳瓦尔原住民土地。
Welcome to Louise in Canberra on Ngunnawal Country.
路易丝，你在临终关怀中心做过志愿者，所以这个话题对你来说特别有共鸣。
Louise, you volunteered a hospice, so this topic is very close to home for you.
你见过哪些好的死亡案例？
What have you seen in terms of good deaths?
好的，谢谢。
Well, thank you.
我真的希望当人们住进临终关怀院时，家人都清楚那个人或者他们爱的人想要什么。
I really hope when people end up in the hospice that the families are aware of what the person or their loved one would like.
但我觉得这更多是确保你走进那个房间，或者花时间陪伴那个人，而且房间里每个人都能和睦相处，不要只想着自己。
But I guess this is more of making sure that you come into that room or or spending time with that person and everyone gets on in the room, like and doesn't think of themselves.
要想着那个你即将失去的亲人，然后就用满满的爱包围那个人。
Think of the loved one who's there, who you're about to lose, and and just surround the person with a lot of love.
这样他们就知道，当他们离开时，房间里充满的就是爱。
So they know that when they're passing, that that is what is in the room.
比如，有时候人们因为另一个家庭成员在场而不想进去，这确实可能让人压力很大，但进去用爱包围那个人就好。
Like, there are times where people don't wanna come in because another family member's there, and there's they can be quite it's a very stressful time for people, but to come in and just surround that person with love.
而且因为当他们躺在床上时，最后的感官就是还能听到房间里的动静，所以只要保持友善，和大家好好相处就行。
And because whilst they're lying in the bed, their last sense is that they can still hear what's going around in the room and just to just to be pleasant and get on with everyone else.
路易丝，我相信作为临终关怀院的志愿者，你见过人们带着各种情绪状态来，也有不确定，不知道做什么或说什么的时候。
Louise, I'm sure in your position as a volunteer at a hospice, you see people arriving in all sorts of emotional states and also uncertainty, not knowing or what to do or what to say.
那你如何帮助他们顺利过渡，或者引导他们走向对临终者有益的状态呢？
So how do you help smooth the way for them or guide them to to that place that you that is good for the person who is dying?
是的。
Yeah.
我想传达的一个信息是，虽然这对家人来说是一段非常紧张和艰难的时刻，但请把这段时间当作非常珍贵的时光，即使你即将失去某个人。
I'm one message I give is that whilst it's a really stressful and hard time for families, just to remember this time as a really precious time even though you're going to lose someone.
只要在场，活在当下，成为某人的真正支持。
Just to be present and in the moment, to be a really good support to someone.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
非常感谢你，路易丝。
Thank you so much, Louise.
谢谢你和我们开启这场关于善终的对话，并分享你作为临终关怀志愿者的经验和见解。
Thank you for starting off this conversation on a good death with us and sharing your experience and insights from your position as a volunteer at a hospice.
也感谢你做的这项非常重要的工作。
And thank you for doing that really important work.
我真的很感激像你这样的人，因为我也经历过类似的情况。
Really appreciate people like you when I have been in similar situations.
所以非常感谢你。
So thank you very much.
我想直接连线昆士兰的安吉拉。
I wanna go straight to Angela in Queensland.
欢迎来到《生活要事》，安吉拉。
Welcome to Life Matters, Angela.
你多年来一直在思考什么才是好的死亡。
You've thought about what makes a good death for years.
那么告诉我，这对你来说意味着什么？
So tell me what that means to you.
嗯，我觉得关于这个话题我有很多话要说，各个方面都有。
Well, I think I have a lot to say about this, but all all aspects of this.
但具体来说，你知道，我被问到对我来说什么是好的死亡，我主要考虑的是，在我身体无法自理之前，我会先处理好所有的负面情绪，这样我就能去爱，也能接受爱，而不需要控制任何事情。
But specifically, you know, I've been asked to talk about what makes a good death for me, and that I've considered primarily is that I would feel all of my negative feelings and emotions before I get to a place where I'm physically incapacitated so that I can love and receive that love and not have to control anything.
安吉拉，我很好奇。
Angela, I'm curious.
是什么让你对这个问题想这么多？
What has made you think so much about this?
嗯，说实话，要诚实回答这个问题的话，我得说是因为和一对夫妇住得很近，他们叫耶稣和玛丽，住在金阿罗伊这里。
Well, actually, to be honest and to answer that honestly, I would have to say living with living close to a man and his his wife, Jesus and Mary, who are out here at King Arroy
好的。
Okay.
他们教导的正是这个，就是生活我们无法抗拒。
Who teach that exactly that, that life we can't fight it.
我们无法控制它。
We can't control it.
我们唯一能做的就是感受内心的东西，感受那些抗拒爱的情绪，无论是来自上帝、伴侣还是其他人的爱。
We just all the only thing we can do is feel what is inside of us, what what emotions we have that resist that love, either from God or from our partner or from whoever.
这是一段旅程，但是，你知道，这种自愿辅助死亡之类的事情，我们确实得看到，那只不过是一种控制到底的需求。
And it's been a journey, but, you know, this voluntary assisted dying and things like this is is definitely we've gotta see that that's just a need to control right to the end.
而且它把很多潜力都截断了，很多我们本来可以一直学到最后的那些东西。
And it it cuts short so much potential, so much, you know, that we could still be learning right to the end.
对。
Right.
安吉拉，那说到实际层面的考虑呢？你谈到了什么是好的死亡。
What about practical considerations, Angela, when you talk about what makes a good death?
我听到你讲的是精神层面的考虑，但是——对。
Have you I I hear your spiritual considerations, but Yep.
你知道，杰基·贝利之前也提到了一些实际的事情。
You know, Jackie Bailey was early talking about practical things.
你有没有想过实际层面的东西？
Have you thought about practical things?
嗯，我填过那种表格，就是那种拒绝无意义治疗的表格。
Well, I've done a a you know, that that form where the, you know, you you resist sort of care that's just useless.
就是类似这些。
So those sorts of things.
但对我来说，我已经不需要再考虑那些了。
But to me, I don't even need to think about that anymore.
重要的是处理情绪，因为情绪本身就是导致疾病和不适的根源。
It's do the emotional work, because it's the emotions that cause sickness and illness anyway.
你知道，那些问题的核心就在于我们那些没有被感受到、没有被哀悼、没有被释放的情绪。
You know, that's that's where the core of those things are in in our unfelt, ungrieved, unreleased emotions.
它们的影响会持续很久，甚至延伸到灵界。
And they have long lasting effects and far into the spirit world.
而且，你知道，是的。
And, you know yeah.
好的。
Okay.
安吉拉，非常感谢你今天早上的分享。
Angela, thank you so much for sharing this morning.
杰基，我想接听路易斯的来电，第一个。
Jackie, I wanna go to Louise's call, the first one.
让我印象深刻的是，这个说法其实不常被提到，但本周早些时候在澳大利亚的故事里确实出现了，那就是“死亡素养”这个概念。
And the thing that struck me is, it's it's a it's a saying that hasn't come up very much, but it did come across in the Australian story earlier this week, and that's an idea of death literacy.
而且我觉得，从很多方面来看，我们对死亡的认识并不够。
And it strikes me that in many ways, we're not very death literate.
对。
Yeah.
世界各地都有非常强大的草根死亡素养运动，但在澳大利亚。
There's a very strong grassroots death literacy movement around the world, but in Australia.
我称他们为我的“死亡伙伴”，我们非常希望人们能，是的，能对死亡有更多的了解，明白你需要准备什么，能准备什么，能控制什么，不能控制什么。
I call them my fellow deathies, where we're very much wanting people to, yeah, to be to to become more death literate in terms of understanding what you what you need to prepare and what you can prepare, what you can control, what you can't control.
并且要承认，你知道，这真的，真的会发生。
And just acknowledging that, you know, it's literally gonna it's gonna happen.
除非你是彼得·蒂尔或山姆·奥特曼那样的人，也许你能找到办法。
Like, maybe unless you're Peter Thiel or Sam Altman or someone, and you're gonna figure out
怎么长生
How to free
让自己摆脱生命。
themselves from life.
回来吧。
Come back.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
祝他们好运吧。
Like, good luck to them.
但我们其他人都会死。
But the rest of us are gonna die.
我们都会死。
We're all gonna die.
每个人，你，我，还有所有打电话进来的人，我们都会死。
Everyone, you, me, like, everyone who's calling in, we're all going to die.
这确实值得深思，你知道，很像中世纪那种‘记住你终将死去’的修行，或者佛教的修行方式，就是有一种观想冥想，你想象人们是尸体、遗骸，明白自己终有一死，因为人脑很难真正接受这一点。
And that is worth reflecting on, you know, very memento mori medieval kind of practice or very Buddhist practice, which is there is a visualization meditation where you you literally visualize people as dead bodies and corpses and understanding that you are going to die because very hard for the human brain to get its head around that.
而且，你知道，我们可能无法完全做到，但只需要足够理解，去做一些实际的事情，比如明白。
And, you know, we probably can't fully, but we just need to get our head around it enough to do some practical things like understand.
所以，我记得好像是安吉拉提到她填过一份表格，听起来像是预立医疗指示，那是一种表格。
So one I think it was Angela was talking about the form she'd filled in, which is probably it sounded like an advanced care directive, which is which is a very like, that's one of the forms.
你知道，死亡伴随着很多文书工作。
Like, there's a lot of paperwork that goes with death, you know.
有预立医疗指示，但还有，比如，如果你八十多岁在家突然中风，你在预立医疗指示里写了，如果发生这种情况，不要心肺复苏之类的，但你没有把这份指示交给救护车人员，那么，你知道，他们还是会来。
There's the advanced care directive, but there's also like, if you're if you suddenly have a stroke at home and you're in your eighties and you've put in your advanced care directive, if that sort of thing happens, you know, whatever, do not resuscitate or whatever, but you haven't actually lodged that with the ambos, the ambulance as well, then, you know, they're gonna come in.
急救人员会来，试图对你进行心肺复苏。
The paramedics are gonna come in and try and resuscitate you.
那是他们的工作。
Like, that's their job.
所以你需要把指示交给他们。
So you you need to lodge it with them.
或者像澳大利亚的预立医疗规划组织，他们有很多非常实用的小工具。
Or like, Advanced Care Planning Australia has all these really great little practical tools.
比如，你可以把他们的卡片放在钱包里，或者门上贴个标志，写着我的预立医疗计划在冰箱顶上之类的。
Like, you can put a card in your wallet from them and, like, a sign on your door which says, you know, my advanced care plan is on top of my fridge or wherever it might be.
所以，就是一些很实际的东西。
So, you know, just practical stuff.
这不仅帮你自己，也帮你的家人。
It's it's helping you, but it's also helping your family.
因为如果他们不知道你想要什么，而且我觉得很多人会想，只要想到死亡、承认死亡或者写下来，就会招来死亡。
Because if they don't know what what you want, I mean also, I think people kind of think that just thinking about death or acknowledging it or writing about it is gonna bring it on.
这确实是一种迷信。
Like, that's certainly a superstition.
这是恐惧，也是一种迷信，尤其是在亚洲文化里，
It's fear, and it's a superstition in the, you know, definitely strong in the Asian
这种观念根深蒂固。
culture that into existence.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
My yeah.
我妈妈就是这样，你知道，我的祖父母甚至没留下遗嘱，结果闹出了好多纠纷。
That my mom was, like, you know, to the point where, you know, grandparents of mine just didn't leave a will and caused so much drama.
因为他们觉得，如果我写了遗嘱，就会把死亡招来。
Because they're like, if I do that, you know, it's gonna bring it into my life.
我的意思是，我希望我能控制天上的飞机，但我觉得我做不到。
I mean, I'm so that's I I wish, you know, I could control planes in the air, but I don't actually think I can.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
那张纸没那么厉害。
That piece of paper is not that powerful.
对。
No.
我的意思是，你可以做个小仪式，如果你觉得需要保护自己，避免把任何东西招到身上。
I mean, you can you can, like, do a little ritual to sort of if you feel like you need to protect yourself from any kind of calling anything into being.
如果你是个对能量敏感的人，那当然，做些仪式来创造一个保护空间，但还是要做。
If you are a sensitive energy person, you know, by all means, do some sort of ritual that creates a protective space for that, but still do it.
这就是我在这件事上的主要建议。
That's my main kind of advice on that one.
我们现在接听下一位来电者，杰基，来自悉尼加迪加尔土地上的瑞秋。
Let's take another call now, Jackie, from Rachel in Sydney on Gadigal Lands.
瑞秋，你曾和身患晚期癌症的弟弟在美国待了几年。
Rachel, you spent a few years in The United States with your brother who had terminal cancer.
所以这对你来说是非常真实的经历。
So this isn't this is a very real experience for you.
你愿意分享一些关于那方面的经历，以及你对善终的看法吗？
What would you like to share about that and also your your thinking about a good death?
是的。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
我只是想分享这个，因为我在澳大利亚没见过，而且我个人希望我和我在澳大利亚的所有亲人也能有这样的服务。
I just wanted to share it because it was something I haven't seen in Australia, and personally, I would like it for me and all my loved ones in Australia.
所以，看到那种真正基于“善终”理念的全方位护理，真的是一次非常震撼的经历。
So it's an incredibly powerful experience to see a holistic care, which really was based on that idea of a good death.
简单说一下背景，纽约州才刚刚引入自愿辅助死亡，但他们有这种临终关怀服务已经很长时间了。
So just as context, they've only just brought in voluntary assisted dying in the state with New York State, but they have had this hospice care service for a long time.
它是非营利性的，但获得了联邦医疗保险的资金支持。
It's not for profit, and it but it's got federal Medicare funding.
我当时特别惊讶。
I was so surprised.
我没想到美国的医疗体系会有这个。
I didn't think the American system would have this.
但它的运作方式是通过家庭，确保病人能够留在家里。
But what it works through is the family and having making sure that the person can stay at home.
你们一直在讨论的那些决定，比如谁进房间、医疗人员来探视的安排，所有这些都由家属和主管医生来控制。
All those decisions that you guys have been talking about, you know, who comes into the room, what kind of visits you have from medical staff, all of that is then controlled by the family and the supervising doctors.
所以你不会待在一个无法掌控的机构环境里，比如灯是开是关之类的。
So there isn't this institutional space that you're in where you can't control, you know, the lights are on or off or whatever.
这真的非常有力，而且我七月份就在那里，经历了最后阶段，护士每天都来探视。
So it's so powerful, and and it was I was there just for the last stage in July, and there were daily visits by nurses.
还有心理咨询。
There was counseling.
还有社工。
There was a social worker.
还有一位丧亲辅导员，现在事情发生后，他还在和家属以及我一起工作。
There was a bereavement counselor who now is working with the family and me after this has happened.
这真的是非常美好、非常贴心的事情。
It was just such a beautiful and thoughtful thing.
我跟一位护士聊过，我问她，你是怎么参与进来的？
And I spoke to one of the nurses, and I said, how did you get involved?
她说她以前在医院工作，她发现一旦人们不再接受治疗，就会被忽视和搁置。
And she said she worked in hospitals, and she'd seen that as soon as people were no longer receiving treatment, they were kind of neglected and put aside.
她觉得这太糟糕了，所以25岁时她重新培训，成为了一名临终关怀护士。
And she thought that was so terrible that at 25, she retrained to become one of these these cosmic care nurses.
我觉得这真的是一个非常周到且实用的方式，能解决你们讨论的很多问题。
And I just thought it was a really thoughtful and practical way of dealing with a lot of your questions you're talking about.
对。
Yeah.
瑞秋，非常感谢你的分享，也为你失去亲人感到难过。
Rachel, thank you so much for sharing, and I'm sorry for your loss.
你给了我们很多思考，很高兴知道你哥哥在那段时间得到了很多支持。
You've given us lots to think about, and it's good to know that your brother had so much support and during that time.
非常感谢你的分享。
Thank you so much for sharing.
杰基，我想回到你这边，我们来谈谈临终支持和护理。
Jackie, I wanna come back to you, and let's talk about end of life support and care.
你是一名非宗教的临终关怀工作者，帮助那些处于临终阶段的人。
You're a secular pastoral care practitioner, and you help people, when they're in that stage of dying.
你具体做些什么呢？
What exactly do you do?
你什么时候介入？
When do you come in?
人们是怎么找到你的？
How do people find you?
他们会问你什么样的问题？
And what what kind of questions do they ask you?
基本上，我在养老院工作，那里每个人最终都会离世。
So basically, I work in aged care, in an aged care home, and that is a place where everyone's gonna die.
所以，到了一定时候，人们会进入临终关怀阶段，接受生命末期的照护。
So at some point, people will become palliative and enter the end their end of life stage care.
所以，我一直在他们身边，可能认识一个人好几年了。
So I'm around you know, I might know someone for a number of years.
我可能只认识他们几天。
I might know them for a number of days.
但一旦他们接近那个阶段，其实那里的每个人都已经到了生命的尽头。
But once they're getting towards well, everybody in there is is kind of, you like, at the end of their lives.
不过，你知道，你可能会进入那个最关键的阶段，也就是临终关怀期，就像刚才那位来电者描述的那样，听起来真的很美好，那种全程持续的关怀。
But, you know, you kind of can get to the pointy end, which is more the palliative period, which which the last caller was describing, which just sounded so beautiful, that kind of continuous care all the way through.
所以当人们进入养老院时，他们非常清楚地面对一个现实：这是最后一程了。
So when people come into aged care, they're they're very much faced with the reality that this is the last lap.
你知道，这是他们生命的最后阶段。
You know, it's the last stage of their lives.
很多牧养关怀是一种“在场”的服侍，所以我只是去那里，倾听。
There's a lot of pastoral care is a ministry of presence, so I just come and I listen.
我倾听他们的悲伤和失去，比如失去独立、行动能力、认知能力，等等。
I listen to the grief and the loss of, you know, independence, mobility, cognition, whatever it might be.
我倾听他们如何寻找意义，在他们生命的新阶段里寻找目的，因为他们如果还活着，他们并不是选择在那时死去，或者很多人无法选择。
I listen to the meaning making, the looking for purpose in in this new part of their lives because if they are still alive, they're not choosing to die at that point or many of them can't.
临终关怀还是相当有限的。
VID is quite limited still.
我也会陪伴家属，特别是那些因为痴呆症之类的疾病而逐渐失去亲人的家庭，我自己也陪过我姐姐走过那段路。
I I sit with the families as well, especially hard for for the ones whose whose family member is they've lost by degrees through something like dementia, which I I sat with with my sister as well.
所以这对我来说非常触动，也非常真实。
So it's it's very poignant and and real to me.
然后当我们进入更接近临终的舒适护理阶段时，我主要就是陪着即将离世的人，如果家属愿意的话也陪着他们，但家属不一定总在。
And then when we get to the more palliative end of life comfort care stage, I'm very much there to just sit with the person who's dying and their family if they want to, but family might not be there all the time.
有时候会发生一些有趣的情况。
It's it's an interesting one that sometimes happens.
比如，当一个人开始进入临终阶段时，家属们都会赶来。
The family like, everybody comes when, you know, the person is starting to enter that end of life stage.
他们可能会在那里过夜。
You know, they might sleep overnight.
诸如此类的事情都可能发生。
All that kind of stuff might happen.
如果这个人因为某种原因身体很强壮或者别的什么，他们能撑过好几天，你就会开始看到家人往往减少他们的陪伴。
And and if the person, for some reason, their body is strong or whatever it is, they they sort of last more than a few days, you start to see the family kind of oftentimes reduce their presence.
所以那段时间我仍然可以陪在那个临终的人身边。
So that's a time when I can kind of still be there for that person who's dying.
如果他们需要你在那里，这有点像你培养出来的一种直觉，你知道，之前来过的临终关怀志愿者肯定能理解。
If they want you there, like, it's it's a bit of an intuition that you develop, which, you know, the hospice volunteer who called in before would would definitely understand.
那种感觉，这个人是否希望我在房间里？
That sense of does this person want me in the room?
他们是否希望我触碰他们？
Do they want me touching them?
我的意思是，理想情况下，他们会让你知道，你知道，你有你的清单。
I mean, ideally, they've let you know, you know, you've got your checklist.
但如果他们没有，你就非常依赖你的直觉。
But if they haven't, you're very much relying on your spidey sense.
现在是时候退后一步了吗？
Is it time now to step back, to step back?
这确实发生在我身上，和几位住户一起，我和他们坐在一起。
And that's absolutely happened with me and and a couple of residents now where I've sat with them.
你知道，他们正在走向生命尽头。
You know, they're dying.
我可能握着他们的手。
I've maybe held their hand.
然后半小时或一小时后，我稍微往后坐了一点。
Then after half an hour or an hour, I've sat back a bit.
我身体上离他们更远了一些。
I've moved back further away from them physically.
然后就会觉得，好吧。
And then it'll be like, okay.
好的。
Okay.
琼，或者那个人的名字。
Joan or whatever that person's name is.
我要去上个厕所。
I'm I'm gonna go do a wee.
我告诉他们一声，然后我出去，回来的时候，人已经走了。
Like, I let them know, then I go, and I come back, and they've gone.
哦，天哪。
Oh, wow.
也许他们就是，你知道，想独自离开。
And it might be that they just, you know, wanted to go alone.
这很常见。
That's really common.
我经常告诉家属，如果家人一直在场，很想待在房间里，有点像守夜那样，这种情况可能会发生。
And I always tell family that that might happen if the family is very present and very much there in the room and wanting to be there, you know, sort of setting up a bit of a vigil.
我也会让他们知道，看，那很好。
And I do let them know, look, that's great.
但偶尔，比如，也许去吃点午饭什么的。
But just occasionally, like, maybe just go and get lunch or something.
你们所有人时不时都离开房间，以防你们的人只是在等你们不在的时候走。
All of you leave the room every now and then just in case your person is just waiting to go without you.
就像，你知道，我不喜欢别人盯着我吃饭，更别说临终了。
Like, you know, I don't like people staring at me when I'm eating, let alone dying.
所以我肯定会是那种等到所有人都离开房间才走的人。
So I would definitely be someone who waited until everybody had left the room.
这对一些家庭成员来说是不是很难接受或理解？
Is that hard for some family members to accept or understand?
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
我跟我谈过的每个人，他们都会点头。
Every everybody I've ever spoken to about it, they kind of nod.
他们就像，哦，是的。
They're like, oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对，然后他们就开始回想这个人的性格，然后就会说，哦，是的。
We should and then they start reflecting on the person's character, and they're like, oh, yeah.
我是说，对，他们确实有点内向，或者别的什么。
I mean, yeah, they were a bit of an introvert or whatever it might be.
而且他们了解自己的亲人。
I mean and they know their person.
他们知道要给对方空间。
They know to give them space.
我是说，这又不是说，你知道，那个人马上就要死了。
I mean, it's not like, you know, the person's dying.
他们对死亡的时间和方式显然没什么控制力。
The the level of, like, their control is obviously pretty limited on when and how they're gonna die.
但我确实有过这样的经历，有时候他们能控制的，就是选择等一等，还是不等。
But I do have had that experience where there is a bit of a sense that what is sometimes in their control is to wait or not.
不是总是这样，但有时候确实如此。
Not always, but sometimes.
所以如果是这种情况，你想给他们最后那一点点宽容。
And so if it is, you wanna give them that last little bit of grace.
现在我们接听来自科夫斯港的雅各布的电话。
Let's take a call from Jacob in Coffs Harbour now.
欢迎来到《生活要事》，雅各布。
Welcome to Life Matters, Jacob.
这次谈话让你想起了你祖母去世时的情景。
This conversation has reminded you of how your grandmother died.
你当时想到了什么？
What came to mind for you?
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢，谢谢你们邀请我上节目。
Thanks for thanks for having me on.
是的。
Yeah.
我的祖母去世了，我想大概是六七年前吧。
My my grandmother passed away, I think six six or seven years ago now.
她走得挺突然的。
And her passing was quite sudden.
完全没想到，而且很快，但她一直都很清醒，知道自己快要走到尽头了。
It was unexpected and it happened quickly, but it was she was still lucid throughout and was aware that she was sort of approaching the end.
她因为一件事进了医院，结果发现是败血症，而且病得很重。
She went into the hospital for one thing and it turned out she was septic for a and and quite unwell.
所以从那以后她身体就迅速恶化，但看到她的时候真的很有意思，她身上有一种很平静的感觉，而且对即将到来的死亡有一种很强的接受感。
So she was deteriorating quickly from there, but it was really interesting seeing her with there was sort of quite a peacefulness about her, and there was a big feeling of acceptance with the sort of oncoming mortality.
而且很有意思的是，这和房间里其他人形成了对比，他们，嗯，不知道。
And it was it was really interesting to see that contrasted in the people that were in the room around her who no.
我觉得我们并不是在给房间增添负面情绪，但确实，我们开始用自己的，对死亡的焦虑填满那个房间。
I don't think we we were filling the room with negativity, but it definitely turned into a place where we were starting to fill the room with us with with our own anxiety about death.
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然后，是的。
And we yeah.
那是一个非常有趣的对比，她好像摆脱了幻觉，完全理解了自己的死亡，接受了它即将到来。
It was a very interesting contrast, and it was it's she was sort of free she she she felt free of delusion in that sort of Bardo total understanding of her death, accepting that it was oncoming.
对。
Yeah.
这真的很有意思。
And it was it was quite interesting.
那么，雅各布，我想现在把话题交给你，这件事让你对什么是好的死亡有了什么反思？
So, Jacob, I wonder if I can turn it to you now, how has that made you reflect on what a good death means to you?
这确实让我大开眼界。
It was it was definitely sort of eye opening.
我觉得对我来说，它凸显了在接近死亡时，无论是突然的还是缓慢的，释放对生活中那些让我们焦虑的事情的控制，似乎非常重要。
And I think I think for me, it sort of highlighted that a release of sort of anxieties about your life as you as you approach it, if it's suddenly or if it's sort of coming coming on slowly, sort of releasing control over over things that sort of make us anxious feels quite important.
而且，能够坐在房间里，陪伴那些正在死去的人，甚至在他们去世之后，也很重要。
And also being able to sit in the room, I think, with with people as they're dying or even after they've passed.
我奶奶去世后，我没能和她说话，但之后我读了很多关于这如何影响我们对死亡的理解的文章。
I I wasn't able to speak with my with my grandmother after she passed, but I've read a lot since about the the impact that that can have on that sort of understanding mortality as well.
但我觉得，这反映了一个道理，就是理解生活中任何恐惧的方式，就是去理解让你焦虑或害怕的那个东西。
But I think, like, it it reflected, like, the the way to understanding anything, any fear in your life is to sort of understand the thing that's making you anxious or afraid.
对。
Yeah.
非常感谢你，雅各布，打电话来分享。
Thank you so much, Jacob, for calling and sharing.
真的很感谢你抽出时间。
I really appreciate you taking the time.
杰基·贝利，在我们接听下一位等候的来电者之前，我想听听你的看法。
Jackie Bailey, before we go on to our next caller who's standing by, I wanna come to you.
你知道，人们有时害怕谈论死亡。
You know, people sometimes are afraid to talk about death.
他们会感到很不舒服，或者有些情况下，有人喜欢谈论死亡和死亡规划，但这会让其他人感到不舒服。
They feel very uncomfortable, or there are situations where people like to talk about death and death planning, and it makes other people uncomfortable.
你怎么在这种对话中把握平衡呢？
How do you strike that balance on that conversation?
你怎么开始谈论这个话题呢？
How do you how do you start talking about it?
而且就像雅各布指出的，是房间里的人，而不是他的祖母，把那种焦虑带进了那个空间。
And even as Jacob pointed out, it was the people in the room and not his grandmother who were bringing the anxiety into that space.
对。
Yeah.
雅各布的祖母听起来真是个了不起的人。
That Jacob's grandmother sounds like like a total dude.
那种死亡方式正是我希望拥有的，非常清醒地面对。
Like, that's the kind of death that I hope to have very much aware.
所以对我来说，如果房间里有不同的能量，不同的人，不同的能量，我的关注点永远是那个即将离世的人，你知道，显然，这是最重要的。
So I think for for me, if there's different energies in the room, different people, different energies in the room, my focus is the person who's dying always, you know, obviously, first and foremost.
而且他们常常陷入这种状态，我想说，我知道我快死了。
And if they're so they're often caught in this, I wanna like, I know I'm dying.
我想聊聊这件事，或者别的什么。
I wanna talk about it or whatever it might be.
但我不想让我的女儿或丈夫难过，所以他们还在照顾其他人。
But I don't wanna upset, you know, my daughter or my husband or so they're they're still caring for those other people.
我不想，也不会去干涉他们。
And I don't wanna I'm not gonna interfere with that.
我不会剥夺他们的这个机会，因为那是他们表达关爱和体现价值的方式。
I'm not gonna take that away from them because that's their act of service, and that's their act of purpose.
直到生命的最后一刻，你仍然可以为他人付出。
All the way right to the end, you can still be acting in service to others.
所以如果那个人正在这样做，我的关注点就在他们身上。
So if that's what that person is doing, my focus is them.
但我不会说，你们需要谈谈死亡，因为你们的人已经准备好了。
But I'm not gonna be like, oh, you guys, you need to talk about death because, you know, your person is ready to.
我可能会和临终的人交换一下眼神，或者点点头。
It might be more sort of, you know, I might exchange a bit of a eye contact with the person who's dying, like a bit of a nod.
我们可能会在别人不在的时候再聊这些，或者我会在房间外面跟那些人说。
We might talk about stuff later when people are away, or I might talk to those people outside the room.
我做的只是观察他们对这件事的理解和接受程度。
What I do do is just gauge where they're at with their understanding and acceptance.
比如，我遇到过这样的情况：女儿明白了，儿子却不明白。
So, you know, I've had a situation where the daughter understood, the son didn't understand.
儿子在房间里开着电视，就一直在看电视。
The son had the TV on in the room, was just watching TV.
你知道吗？
You know?
有一次我就跟他说，你如果有什么想说的，真的说不准。
And I just kind of said to him at one point, you know, you might if there's anything you need to say, you just never know.
你知道，现在可能是个好时机，好好想想这件事。
You know, this might be a good time to have a think about that.
就是尽可能温和地让他们意识到现实，这已经不是一次普通的探望了。
Just introducing as gently as possible the reality, you know, that this is this is not a normal visit anymore.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那你有没有注意到，不同的人群，比如按性别或年龄划分，对死亡的反应或谈论方式有什么规律吗？
And have you noticed any patterns around how different groups of people might respond to or talk about death, you know, along gender or age lines?
这个问题问得真好。
That's a really good question.
其实没有。
Not really.
我是说，我在养老院接触的很多人，他们都属于特定的群体。
I mean, a lot of the people I talk to in aged care, they're, you know, they're all of a particular demographic.
反正，即使到了那个阶段，人们通常也不愿意谈论自己的死亡。
Anyway, people generally don't wanna talk about their death, you know, even at that point.
他们可能会，你知道，我们可能会聊到某个点，我觉得合适的时候就会问，你有没有什么想和解的事？
They might you know, we might have a conversation where I feel like it's appropriate to sort of say, is there anything you wanna reconcile?
在时间到来之前，在你离开之前，有没有什么想说的或者想做的？
Is there any anything left that you wanna say or do before the time comes, before you die?
通常答案是没有。
And generally, no.
有一两次，有。
Once or twice, yes.
但大多数时候，没有。
But generally, no.
他们就会说，没有。
It's sort of like, no.
没有。
No.
我这辈子过得挺好的，之类的。
I've had a good life, blah blah blah.
我的意思是，直到最后一刻，人们都还是他们自己。
I mean, right up until the very pointy end, people are themselves.
可以这么说。
I can put it like that.
所以如果你是那种真正会去思考这些存在主义问题的人，那你就会去思考。
And so if you're the kind of person who really interrogates that existential stuff, you know, then then then you will.
但我接触的大多数人都是非常务实、动手能力强、勤劳的澳大利亚人，他们大多八九十岁。
But most of the people that I work with are very practical, hands on, sort of hardworking Australians in their eighties and nineties.
而那不是他们习惯的、舒服的方式。
And that's not their, like, comfortable.
他们更习惯、也更愿意聊的，是他们的家人，或者他们离开的家，以及那些更具体、更实际的生活和死亡方面的事情。
What is more comfortable and what I've you know, we'll talk to them about more is, you know, their families or what or or their their homes that they've that they've left and and that that more concrete practical aspect of life and death.
你之前那位来电者提到，在某人去世后坐在他们身边，这让我想起，当一个人去世时，那种非常具体的、细胞层面的知识需要从一个身体传递到另一个身体。
And your previous caller was talking about sitting with someone after they died, which just reminds me of that very physical cellular knowledge that needs to pass from one body to the other when someone dies.
这就是为什么，你知道，坐在已故的人身边，或者为他们清洗身体，甚至只是看着他们，真的能帮助你在悲伤中理解，那个人已经不再和你生活在同一个时间维度里了。
And that is why, you know, sitting with someone who's died or washing them, just even just seeing them can really help with that grieving understand that physical understanding that that person is no longer alive in the same sort of temporal zone as you.
我们再接一位听众来电，这位是来自昆士兰的克莉西。
Let's take another caller now from Chrissy in Queensland.
克莉西，你最近陪伴你95岁的奶奶走完了最后一程。
Chrissy, you recently sat with your 95 year old Nana as she passed.
那段经历对你来说怎么样？它有没有让你对“善终”有了新的思考？
How was that experience for you, and and how did that make you think about a good death?
你好。
Hi.
谢谢你接听我的电话。
Thank you for taking my call.
我小时候很多时间都是和奶奶一起度过的。
I spent a lot of time in my childhood with my Nana.
她对我来说非常重要，对我的人生影响很大。
And she was a very, very important person to me, very influential in my life.
她留下了很深远的影响。
She has a huge legacy.
她有六个孩子，还有超过二十三个孙辈。
She had six children and over 23 grand grandchildren.
现在估计有大约六十个曾孙辈了。
And I think we're looking at about 60 great great grandchildren now.
所以家族很庞大。
So big legacy.
是我在医院陪了她超过二十四小时。
It was myself that sat with her for over twenty four hours in the hospital.
她去世的时候，有我、我姑姑和一个叔叔在场。
And then when she passed, there was myself, my auntie, and an uncle.
哦，不对，不是我在场，因为我当时走出了房间，然后接到电话说她走了。
Well, sorry, not myself because I walked out of the room and she got a call saying that she passed.
让人心碎的是，她一生都奉献给了家庭。
It was heartbreaking in the sense that she dedicated her life to her family.
而且她走得并不快。
And it wasn't a quick passing.
他们知道她快不行了，但没人真的用心去做点什么。
They knew that she was passing and no one really made the effort.
纯粹是因为家人之间的积怨。
And it was purely because of animosity between the family members.
这让我心碎。
And that broke my heart.
然后
And
更糟的是，因为家人之间同样的积怨，我奶奶连葬礼都没办。
then even further than that, because of the same animosities between family members, my nana didn't have a funeral.
抱歉。
Sorry.
没事。
No.
没关系。
It's okay.
听起来
That sounds
她是
She was
对。
yeah.
她是一个非常非常善良的人，从不评判任何人。
She was a beautiful, beautiful person who never judged anybody.
而且对她来说，她事后只会说，如果我自己想的话，她只会说，哦，好吧。
And to her, she would have just afterwards, if I I thought to myself, she would have just gone, oh, well.
没关系。
Never mind.
这帮助我度过了那段时光。
And that that helped me get through that.
但是，是的，对我来说，想到自己的死亡，我也有一个大家庭，我只是祈祷我走的时候不会发生那样的事。
But, yeah, for me, thinking of my own death, I have also got a big family, and I've just pray to god that doesn't happen when I pass.
对。
Right.
所以听起来，Chrissy，有很多事情没有解决。
So it sounds like, Chrissy, there's a lot of lack of resolution
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
关于那个，是的。
Around the Yeah.
你奶奶去世这件事，没有举行葬礼，让情况更糟了。
Your death of your grandma, and not having a funeral has added to that.
Jackie，我想请你来说说。
Jackie, I wonder if I can invite you in here.
我想知道，即使Chrissy没法把整个大家族聚在一起，她能不能自己做一些事情来纪念她的奶奶。
And I wonder if there's something Chrissy can do on her own to honor her grandmother even if she can't bring, you know, the huge wider family together.
当然可以。
Absolutely.
对。
Yeah.
克莉西，我刚才也在想这个。
Chrissy, I was just, thinking that too.
如果你有机会为你奶奶举行某种私人仪式，或者这个想法对你有触动的话，你有没有想过为她做点什么具体的事情？
If there's if if you've had an opportunity to conduct any kind of private ritual for for your grandmother or if that, you know, if that idea resonates at all with you, is there something that you physically could think about doing for your gran?
我确实做了。
I actually did.
我设法得到了当时在场的那位阿姨的许可。
I managed to get permission from the auntie that was there when she passed.
她是我奶奶遗产的执行人，而且她保管着奶奶的骨灰。
She was the executor of her estate, and she had her ashes.
我得到了她的许可，把奶奶的骨灰一路带到了皇后区沙漠的边缘。
And I got permission from her to take my nana's ashes all the way out to the very edges of the desert out in Queens Mhmm.
在因多昆德拉，把奶奶的骨灰撒在了她长大的地方。
In the Indocundra and spread my nana's ashes where she grew up.
这挺奇怪的。
That's weird.
只有我自己、我丈夫和我的孩子们，因为，是的，没有其他人觉得她值得这样做。
Just myself and my husband and my children because, yeah, no one else no one else thought that she was worthy of it.
所以我做了。
So I did.
我主动承担了这件事。
And I took I took that upon myself.
是的。
Yeah.
你做得真好。
Good on you.
这真的做得太好了。
That's that's really good on you.
我想那做起来一定很难。
That's that I imagine that was quite hard to do.
确实很难，但这也让我觉得我们之间的联系更深了，因为我走过了奶奶小时候走过的同一片土地。
It was, but it was also it allowed me to make it I feel like it was an even deeper connection because I walked the same country that my nana was walking when she was growing up.
所以
So
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那真的很特别。
That's really special.
这是你平时会做的事情吗？
And is that something that you kind of do?
有没有什么固定的习惯，比如每年或者在她生日的时候，为她做点什么？
Is there, like, a regular thing that you do for for your grandmother, like, a year or on a birthday?
还是没有？
Or No.
没有。
No.
我奶奶是去年十月才去世的。
So my nana only passed in October last year.
好的。
Okay.
所以，马上就到一周年了。
So So we're coming up to the one year
对，快到了。
mark Yeah.
快了。
Soon.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你有没有想过那个时间你会做些什么？
Have you got thoughts about what you might do around that time?
或者那个日子对你来说并不重要？
Or or maybe that date's not significant?
也许她的生日更重要。
Maybe it's her birthday that's more significant.
对。
Yeah.
对我来说，我会庆祝她的生日，纪念她的一生，而不是她离世的日子。
So for me, it'll be her birthday and celebrating her life rather than her passing.
对。
Yeah.
而且不会去我们之前去的地方，那里太远了。
And it won't so the trip out to where we went, it's it's it's a very long way.
不会。
No.
我不是说再回到那里去。
I don't mean going back out there.
但是
But
不是。
No.
但更多的是，你知道，在花园里和户外度过时光，而且我很喜欢园艺。
But it's very much a case of, you know, spending time in gardens and outside, and I love gardening.
对。
And yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
也许可以种点什么，种下它。
And maybe planting and planting it.
你可能已经这么做了，为她种了一棵小树或者打理了花园的一角。
You might have already done this, planted a little tree or area of your garden for her.
这确实值得考虑。
It's definitely worth looking into.
对。
Yeah.
克莉丝，非常感谢你的分享，还有——
Chrissy, thank you so much for sharing and
不客气。
No worries.
没事，没事。
That's that's fine.
我就是，嗯——
I just yeah.
现在无论我去哪里，我都在社区里做很多工作，我确实在努力传播一个信息，那就是家人很珍贵。
Wherever I go now, I'm and and I'm I do a lot of work in my community, and I'm definitely trying to, you know, spread the message that family is family is precious.
对。
Yeah.
而且你得放下自己的敌意和自私，是的。
And you need to get past your own animosities and selfishness and yeah.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yes.
在这种时候，家庭关系往往很紧张。
They are often quite fractured at times like this.
是的。
Yes.
杰基·贝利，有时候不幸的是，死亡会暴露出我们不好的一面，这种情况经常发生。
Jackie Bailey, it seems that sometimes, unfortunately, death can bring out not the best in us, and it it happens quite a lot.
那你对此有什么看法吗？
So do you have any thoughts there?
因为那段时间真的很紧张，而且，你知道，人去世的时候会发生很多事情，有时候会让人变得有点奇怪。
Because they are such fraught times, and things, you know, things happen when people die and makes the people go a bit funny sometimes.
确实不容易。
It's tough.
那这方面你有什么看法？
What what do you got to say on that front?
就是，再说得更实际一点。
Just, again, to be more practical about it.
理想情况下，每个人都应该表现出最好的一面，但就像我们刚才听到的，在这种时候他们往往做不到。
Like, ideally, everybody would be their best selves, but as we've already heard, they're often not at times like this.
而且，你知道，不管什么原因，我们不一定知道他们经历了什么。
And, you know, for whatever reasons, we we don't always know what's going on for them.
但就实际操作来说，在我工作的地方，以及我作为殡葬司仪时，我们会在人临终的那段时间安排轮班。
But in very practical terms, what what we do, where I work, and what I've done in as a funeral celebrant as well is so in the period when someone's dying, you can sort of set up shifts.
比如，早上这些家庭成员来，下午那些来。
So, you know, these members of the family come in the morning, these come in the afternoon.
我知道这听起来不太浪漫，但至少是在面对现实——在生命的最后阶段，你改变不了那个人。
I know it's not romantic, but it's at least dealing with the reality that you're not gonna change that other person in this last period of their lives.
如果他们不来，那是他们的损失。
Or if they're not gonna show up, that's their loss.
那是他们想和你的人保持的关系。
That's the relationship that they wanna have with with your person.
行吧。
Fine.
那是他们的事。
That's on them.
但你不一样。
But you do.
你能控制的只有自己的行为，所以专注于自己该做的。
You all you can control is what you do, and that's what you focus on.
而且你要一直坚持到人去世之后，就像刚才那位来电者说的那样。
And you right up until the death and afterwards, like the last caller has done.
我们再接最后一位听众，杰基·贝利。
Let's try to get one final caller in Jackie Bailey.
萨斯基亚来自新南威尔士州的宁宾。
Saskia is in Nimbin, New South Wales.
欢迎来到《生活要事》，萨斯基亚。
Welcome to Life Matters, Saskia.
你陪伴过几位亲人走完他们生命的最后时光。
You spent a time with a number of your loved ones who've died.
你从那段经历中学到了什么？
What have you learned from that experience?
你好。
Hello.
早上好。
Good morning.
我觉得最大的感悟是，在我们西方社会，死亡和临终都是很忌讳的话题，所以当这些事真的发生在自己身上时，我们完全没有准备好。
I think the main learning is that we, in our Western society, death is so taboo and dying is so taboo that when it happens to us personally, we're totally not prepared.
所以在宁宾社区，我们想更坦然地面对死亡，少一些避讳，多陪伴临终的人，不怕去问他们需要什么。
So in the Nimmin community, we want to be more death aware, talk about it less with less taboo, be with people who are dying, be not afraid to ask what they need.
而且我们还，比如说，社区一起买了一个冷却板，这样如果有人去世了，就可以留在家里，大家也能来探望。
And if we and we also, for instance, bought as a community for communal use a cooling plate, so if somebody died, they can stay at home and people can visit.
所以我们想打破这一切，是的。
So we want to open up the whole yeah.
消除对死亡和临终的忌讳。
Lift the taboo around dying and death.
让它少一些商业化、少一些专业化、少一些医疗化，让它重新成为我们生活的一部分。
Make it also less commercial, less professional, less medicalized, that it becomes more part of our life again.
我觉得我们对死亡的恐惧也影响了我们的生活方式。
I think also our fear of death influences the way we live.
对。
Yes.
是的，就像杰基在节目开头提到的，而且我们都知道，死亡是生命的一部分。
Well, as Jackie mentioned at the beginning of the show, and as we all know, death is a part of life.
我们没法避免它。
We can't avoid it.
非常感谢你的分享，萨斯基亚。
Thank you so much for sharing that, Saskia.
最后请杰基·贝利给我们做个总结。
Final thoughts from you, Jackie Bailey, we close out.
你希望怎么鼓励人们更开放地和身边的人谈论自己的临终准备？
How do you wanna encourage people to talk more openly about their own death preparations with people around them?
大概就是直接去做吧。
Probably just just do it.
你知道，就去做。
You know, just do it.
其实，一个好的切入话题可以是音乐，比如你想在房间里或葬礼上放什么音乐。
And if it's a good way into the conversation can be around music, actually, like the kind of music you want in the room or at the funeral.
因为你可能不想谈死亡，但一旦有人对你说，哦，对。
Because you might not wanna talk about death, but as soon as someone says to you, oh, yeah.
我在想，比如在你的葬礼上放Soundgarden或者什么的，这让我显得很老。
I'm thinking of playing, like, I don't know, Soundgarden or something at your funeral, like, dates me.
我知道。
I know.
但不管怎样，你知道，我会有很强烈的反应。
But anyway, you know, I'm gonna have a strong reaction.
我会说，不行。
I'm gonna be like, no.
我想要Nick Cave的《Into My Arms》，你知道，那首歌太美了。
I want Nick Cave into my arms, like, you know, it's such a beautiful song.
对吧？
Right?
所以一旦你提起某件别人有看法的事情，那就是一个切入点。
So as as soon as you bring up something that someone's got an opinion on, that is an entry way in.
对。
Yeah.
所以我强烈建议你找到进入对话的方式，但你得开始谈论它。
So I would absolutely recommend finding your way in to the conversation, but you've gotta you've gotta start talking about it.
你得让周围的人都更容易接受这个话题。
You've gotta make it easier on everybody else around you.
谢谢你，杰基·贝利医生，今天帮我们聊这个话题。
Thank you, doctor Jackie Bailey, for helping us talk about it today.
杰基·贝利是一位非宗教的牧养关怀从业者，也是葬礼司仪，还是《活着的惊人好运：如何在日常生活中找到崇高》一书的作者。
Jackie Bailey is a nonreligious pastoral care practitioner and funeral celebrant and author of the outrageous good fortune of living, how to find the sublime in your everyday life.
如果你对自愿辅助死亡这个话题感兴趣，明天下午5点请收听Radio National的《God Forbid》节目。
Now if you're interested in the topic of voluntary assisted dying, tune in to God Forbid tomorrow on Radio National from 5PM.
他们有一期特别节目讲自愿辅助死亡。
They have a special on VAD.
如果这次对话让你有所触动，Lifeline运营着GriefLine，为经历悲伤和失落的人提供免费支持。
If this conversation has raised issues for you, Lifeline operates GriefLine, which offers free support to people experiencing grief and loss.
那个号码是130845745。
That number is 130845745.
这是生命热线，号码是130845745。
That's Grief Line on 130845745.
接下来，阿姨们正在幕后等候。
Next up, the Aunties are waiting in the wings.
澳大利亚最受欢迎的野花即将揭晓。
Australia's favorite wildflower is about to be revealed.
哪种花朵赢得了全国人民的喜爱？
Which bloom captured the nation's heart?
会是大家熟悉的老朋友吗？
Will it be a familiar favorite?
还是你从未听说过的小型植物奇迹？
Or a tiny botanical marvel that you've never heard of?
加入安妮·琼斯和我，贝琳达·史密斯，一起度过鲜花倒计时的直播时刻。
Join Anne Jones and me, Belinda Smith, for the live hour of flower countdown.
充满来自澳大利亚壮丽植物世界的故事。
Packed with stories from Australia's spectacular plant world.
今天中午12点，在ABC国家广播电台。
Today from midday on ABC Radio National.
暗恋是不是注定要永远保密？
Is a secret crush meant to stay secret forever?
我们问问阿姨们吧。
Let's ask Auntie.
你们的阿姨是记者兼作家帕特里克·伦顿，以及作家兼剧作家米歇尔·劳。
And your aunties are journalist and author Patrick Lenton and author and playwright Michelle Law.
你好，帕特里克。
Hi, Patrick.
你好，米歇尔。
Hi, Michelle.
先来个直觉测试。
Gut check first.
米歇尔，你先来。
Michelle, I'll go to you.
暗恋一个人有多开心？
How fun is it to have a crush on someone?
是不是特别享受，免费的兴奋感？
Is it deeply enjoyable, free excitement?
很刺激，对吧？
It's thrilling, isn't it?
你同意吗？
Do you agree?
不同意？
Disagree?
太让人振奋了。
It's so invigorating.
我喜欢暗恋的感觉，但它也是深深的折磨。
I love a crush, but it is also a source of deep torment.
所以两者都有。
So both.
说得真像个剧作家。
Spoken like a true playwright.
太棒了。
Excellent.
帕特里克，对于享受暗恋的刺激感，你是赞成还是反对？
Patrick, yay or nay to enjoying the thrills of a secret crush.
哦，绝对赞成。
Oh, absolutely.
但就像米歇尔说的，整个过程真的非常折磨人。
But it is as Michelle says, it's absolutely agonizing the entire time.
这就像，你知道的，痛并快乐着。
It's it's like, you know, good pain.
那种愉悦的痛和变成折磨之间的界限在哪里？
What is the line between the titillation of the good pain and then it becoming torment?
必须有希望才行。
There has to be hope.
你知道，如果你朝着地平线航行，那很美，因为你最终会到达你要去的地方。
There, you know, there there has there you know, if you're if you're sailing towards the horizon, that's beautiful because you're eventually going to get to where you're going.
但如果你永远这样下去，那你就被困在中间状态，一切都会变成恐怖。
But if you're just doing it forever, then you're stuck in limbo, and and everything just extends into horror.
你真是个彻头彻尾的浪漫小说作家。
You're a romance author through and through.
我喜欢这个。
I love this.
我们来看看Mikey分享的内容。
Let's get to what Mikey has shared.
Mikey说，我最近和一个我有点喜欢的朋友一起出去玩了。
And Mikey says, I recently went away with a friend who I have a slight crush on.
我们周末一起闲逛、聊天，做各种事情，都是纯友谊的。
We spent the weekend hanging out and talking and just doing stuff all platonic.
那感觉真好。
It was great.
帕特里克，迈基说只是有点好感。
Patrick, Mikey says it's a slight crush.
在你看来，这算什么意思？
What does that mean in your lens?
对我来说，这有点难以理解，因为我总是从零直接跳到一百。
I mean, for me, it's unrelatable because I'm zero to a 100 all the time.
所以对我来说，有点好感就已经是很强烈的好感了。
So a slight crush would be a large crush.
但我也知道，有些人心里能容纳不同程度的好感。
But I do but I do know that some people are able to hold, you know, a spectrum of crush within them.
而且我觉得，有点好感意味着有发展的可能。
And I think, you know, and I think there's a slight crush is there's a potential.
就像有一丝火花，一点吸引力。
There, you know, there is an ember of attraction.
有些东西也许能慢慢发展，但他们还不打算去添柴加火。
There is something that could perhaps grow, but they're not willing to, you know, to fan the flames yet.
米歇尔，你觉得和一个你有点好感的人一起度过一个所谓的柏拉图式的周末怎么样？
Michelle, what do you think about spending a, quote, platonic weekend away with someone you have a, quote, slight crush on?
我觉得这很危险。
I think it's dangerous territory.
我的意思是，整个周末你都会在想，万一发生点什么怎么办？
I mean, that entire weekend, you're just going to be thinking, what if this happens?
万一什么都没发生呢？
What if it doesn't?
他们喜欢我吗？
Do they like me?
他们不喜欢我吗？
Do they not?
而且你会不停地寻找任何迹象，任何能指向你期望的好结果的迹象。
And you'll be searching nonstop for any kind of sign that leans into leans towards the positive outcome that you're hoping for.
所以我觉得这很让人兴奋，但也很可能带来很多痛苦。
So I think it's really exciting, but also an opportunity for a lot of pain.
是的。
Yes.
所以，是柏拉图式的还是不是？
So platonic or not?
有意思。
It's interesting.
有意思。
It's interesting.
我们进入第二部分吧。
Let's move on to part two.
迈基继续。
Mikey continues.
我是作家，也是资深笔记爱好者，总是随手在笔记本上记东西。
I'm a writer and veteran notetaker, always jotting things down in a notebook.
我还有个毛病，就是老把笔记本弄丢。
I also have the habit of misplacing the notebook.
周末回到家，我才发现它不见了。
And when I got home from the weekend, I realized it was missing.
我们是坐她的车去的，我突然想起来，笔记本就落在她车上了。
We had gone on the trip in her car, and it dawned on me that's where I left it.
好的，帕特里克。
Okay, Patrick.
你之前说过，你只会猛烈地喜欢上一个人。
You have already described yourself as someone who can only crush hard.
对吧？
Okay?
对。
Mhmm.
所以首先，你站在迈基的角度想想。
So firstly, put yourself in Mikey's shoes.
你发现笔记本不在你身上了。
You realize this notebook is not on your person.
你感觉怎么样？
What do you how do you feel?
我可能会说有点恐慌。
I I would probably say something around panic.
就是纯粹的恐惧，因为我不是那种写日记的人，我自己不写日记，因为我不想把那些想法放在一个可能被发现的地方。
Just just absolute terror because I'm not a I'm not a journal like, I don't journal myself because I don't want to put those thoughts into a physical place where they could then be discovered.
所以我觉得那会非常可怕，即使只是很轻微的，哪怕只是那种，
So I think there would be something absolutely terrifying even if it's pretty low, even if it's just like,
我有一点
I have a little bit
心动。
of a crush.
如果你还没准备好跟那个你有点心动的人分享这个，那会感觉挺侵犯隐私的，我觉得，你知道，不是他们的错。
If you're not ready to share that with with the person who you are having a little bit of a crush on, that would be that would feel quite invasive, I feel, you know, not on their not as, you know, on their fault.
就是觉得，哎呀，完了。
Just just like, oh, no.
你知道，这是我的私人想法。
You know, this is my private thoughts.
米歇尔，同样的问题问你。
Michelle, same question to you.
如果你是迈基，回到家发现笔记本不在身边，你脑子里会想什么？
If you're Mikey, you get home and you realize that notebook is nowhere with you, what's going through your mind?
我觉得，可能有好几件事。
I mean, probably a couple of things.
恐惧，但也有兴奋和刺激。
Horror, but also excitement and titillation.
因为我在想，我在怀疑，对。
Because I wonder I wonder and I suspect Yeah.
我觉得迈基可能潜意识里，或者他们的潜意识里故意把它留在那里，对。
That Mikey potentially sub sub his subconscious or their subconscious has left it there Yeah.
可能是有意的，希望它能被发现。
Potentially on purpose in the hopes that it could be discovered.
我们中间有没有人曾经不小心、下意识地把东西落在我们喜欢的人那里，潜意识里希望再见一面？
Coomst among us has not accidentally subconsciously left an item behind with someone we have a crush on in the subconscious wish to have another meeting.
我说得对吗，帕特里克？
Am I Patrick?
来听听你的想法。
Let's hear your thoughts.
我觉得我从来没这么做过。
I mean, I don't believe that I've ever done that.
我倾向于更直接的方式。
I think I think I tend to go to more towards straightforwardness.
对。
Yeah.
但我完全能理解，如果你还没准备好直接谈，又想留点线索看看对方会不会来找你，那这么做也说得通。
But I can I can definitely see that as if you don't have the the capacity to have, you know, a a talk yet, and you're still trying to sort of lead breadcrumbs to see if they'll come to you, then that can make a lot of sense?
对。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Totally.
好的。
Okay.
我们来看看Mikey分享的最后一章。
Let's get to the final chapter that Mikey has shared with us.
Mikey说，笔记本里可能写满了各种糟糕的想法，但最让我担心的是，她会看到我们旅行时我写下的两段真心话。
Mikey says, there's probably all kinds of damning thoughts in the notebook, but mostly, I'm worried she'll see my two honest reflections on our trip together.
我特别害怕她会找到那个笔记本并读它。
I'm terrified she's going to find the notebook and read it.
当我向她要回笔记本的时候，我在想，我是该提我写了什么，还是装作什么都没发生。
When I ask her for the notebook back, I'm wondering if I should mention what I wrote or just go on as if nothing's happened.
好了。
Alright.
Michelle，Mikey很焦虑。
Michelle, Mikey's anxious.
对吧？
Right?
这本笔记本带来的心理压力看起来非常大。
The psychic weight of this notebook seems huge.
感觉就像在燃烧，燃烧，燃烧。
Like, it feels like it's burning, burning, burning.
你对此有什么看法？
What are your thoughts here?
Mikey是不是……Mikey说得对吗？
Is Mikey like, is is Mikey correct?
Mikey在问，我是不是应该提一下这本笔记本，还有里面可能的内容，这确实证实了我的怀疑，就是这里面有潜意识的成分，或者至少是有潜意识的意图。
The fact that Mikey is asking, I'm wondering if I should mention, you know, this notebook and and potentially the contents with it really confirms my suspicion that there was a subconscious element to this or at least a subconscious intention.
我觉得这是一个机会。
I feel like it's an opportunity.
我和Patrick的想法一样，我经常从零直接到一百，尤其是在心动的时候。
I'm of the mind and similar to Patrick, I'm often zero to a 100, especially when it comes to crushes.
我觉得人生苦短，你应该……我是说，听起来Mikey好像有话想说，或者至少想坦白点什么。
I'm of the mind that life is too short and you should I mean, it sounds like Mikey wants to say something or at least confess something.
这就是我的想法。
That would be my that would be my thought.
Patrick，你之前说过，只要有希望，就不算折磨。
Patrick, you earlier said if there's hope, it's not torment.
对吧？
Right?
但Mikey看起来挺痛苦的。
But Mikey seems to be tormented.
那你觉得这里有没有希望呢？
But, like, what's your gauge on whether there's hope here?
我想指出一点，你知道，我们不知道这封信里的所有细节，但听起来像是两个普通朋友单独去度了个周末。
I do wanna point out, you know, we don't have all the details in this letter, but it does sound like two platonic friends went away on a weekend together solo.
就想提一下这个。
Just wanna point that out.
我觉得，这正是恐惧的来源。
I well, I think that's where the fear comes into it.
就是说，他们本质上是在寻求许可，想知道是否值得冒着毁掉这段友谊的风险，去追求更多可能。
It's, you know, it's they're asking for permission essentially to about whether it's worth potentially trashing the friendship for the hope of something more.
所以现在，他们正处在一个微妙的平衡点上，一边是希望事情有所发展，另一边是保持纯友谊的安全感。
So at the moment, they're in that perfect little, you know, wedge between the hope of something happening, but also the safety of it's just a platonic friendship.
所以他们其实可以一直拖着这份好感，只要他们愿意，但显然，内心的压力在不断增加。
So it's act they could actually really spin out the crush for a very long time if they wanted to, But they but, you know, obviously, that internal pressure is building.
所以他们是在向自己寻求许可，问自己：我该不该说出来？
And so they're asking for permission of, you know, kind of of themselves of do I do I say something?
我该不该提起那个笔记本？
Do I bring up the notebook?
我该不该指着那个笔记本？
Do I point to the notebook?
或者，我该不该大声读给他们听？
You know, do I read it out loud to them?
对。
Yeah.
而且可能会彻底改变一切，永远地改变。
And and potentially change everything dramatically forever.
这有点像在一个泡泡里。
It's a little bit of a bubble.
比如说，完全有可能这个不知名的女性也有类似的秘密暗恋，她们只是在享受这种感觉。
Like, it's entirely possible that this unknown per unnamed female has a similar level of secret crush, and they're just enjoying that.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
米歇尔，我想让你站在那个不知名的暗恋者的角度想想。
Michelle, I wanna put yourself in the shoes of the unnamed secret crush.
对吧？
Right?
你走到你的车旁。
You go to your car.
你发现你朋友，也可能是暗恋对象，迈基的笔记本落在你车里了。
You find your friend, possibly secret crush, Mikey's notebook in your car.
你会怎么做？
What would you do?
你会捡起来翻开看吗？
Do you pick it up and open it?
还是会礼貌地放到一边？
Do you respectfully set it aside?
我其实特别爱管闲事。
I'm a real busybody.
大家都知道的，比如你把购物袋落在我家，我会翻一翻，看看你平时都吃什么。
I'm kinda known for, you know, if you leave your grocery bags at my house, I will go through them to see what kind of diet you have.
而且我确实这么做过，把朋友都吓坏了。
And I have done that much to a friend's horror.
所以我肯定会翻一翻。
So I would have a squeeze.
对。
Mhmm.
然后看里面是什么内容，再决定说不说。
And then depending on what's what the contents are, say or not say anything.
好。
Okay.
好。
Okay.
等等。
Wait.
等等。
Wait.
暂停一下。
Pause.
暂停一下。
Pause.
暂停一下。
Pause.
好的。
Okay.
假设你就是那个朋友。
Let's say you are the friend.
你确实有一个互相暗恋的秘密，而且你看到Mikey已经读过了。
You do have a returning secret mutual crush, and you read that Mikey has read it.
你会怎么做？
What do you do?
你的反应是什么？
What's your reaction?
我的天哪。
I oh my gosh.
这就是我脑子里幻想的浪漫情节。
This is the romance plotting thing in my mind.
对。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
我会把想法写在笔记本里，然后放在某个地方让Mikey发现。
I would write my thoughts in a notebook and leave it somewhere for Mikey to find.
太棒了。
Delightful.
真是太棒了。
So delightful.
帕特里克，你也是作家。
Patrick, you're also a writer.
你会怎么做？
What would you do?
大概不会那样做。
Probably not that.
你知道吗，我觉得我会把那当作一个信号，然后我会说，好吧。
You know, I I feel like I feel like I would take that as a, you know, as the go flag, and I'd be like, right.
好。
Okay.
如果我有兴趣的话，我们就这么干。
We're doing this if I was interested.
对。
Right.
你知道吗，我就会直接说，嘿。
You know, I I would just I would just be like, hey.
我在你的笔记本里看到你真的很喜欢我。
I read in your notebook that you really like me.
是的。
Yeah.
我辜负了你的信任，看了你的笔记本。
Broke your trust and read your notebook.
我们在一起吧。
Let's have a relationship.
好。
Yeah.
但这一切都值得。
But it's all worth it.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
帕特里克·伦顿是一位记者兼作家。
Patrick Lenton is a journalist and author.
他的书叫《不顾你》。
His book book is called In spite of You.
米歇尔·劳是悉尼戏剧公司的帕特里克·怀特研究员。
Michelle Law is the Patrick White fellow at the Sydney Theater Company.
如果你有困扰的难题需要我们的帮助，找人聊聊会很有帮助，也能帮你理清下一步该怎么做。
Now if you have a troubling dilemma that needs our help, having people talk it out can be very cathartic and also just help you figure out what to do next.
我们的阿姨们随时为你服务。
Our aunties are here for you.
把你的问题写下来。
Write up your problem.
发邮件到 lifematters@abc.net.au，我们会让我们的阿姨团队来处理。
Email it to lifematters@abc.net.au, and we'll get our crew of aunties on the case.
再重复一遍，邮箱地址是 lifematters@abc.net.au。
That email address again is lifematters@abc.net.au.
非常感谢《生活琐事》的制作团队，他们为大家带来了这一周所有的故事和采访。
Big thank you to Life Matters producers who bring you all the stories and interviews you hear across the week.
他们是杰克·麦克唐纳、布朗温·奥谢、露西·斯威尼、贝克·扎亚克，我们的代理执行制片人是格蕾丝·帕什利。
They are Jack McDonald, Bronwyn O'Shea, Lucy Sweeney, Beck Zajac, and our acting executive producer is Grace Pashley.
我们的音频工程师是艾莉丝·西蒙斯，你可以在ABC Listen上找到所有《生活琐事》的节目。
Our audio engineer is Elise Simons, and you can find all Life Matters episodes on ABC Listen.
你只需要打开应用，搜索“生活琐事”，点击心形按钮关注即可。
All you have to do is hop onto the app, search for Life Matters, tap the heart to follow.
这样就搞定了。
You're all set.
我是贝弗利·王。
I'm Beverly Wang.
非常感谢大家所有的来电和留言。
Thank you so much for all of your calls and messages.
我们下周再聊。
Let's talk again next week.
你刚才收听的是ABC播客。
You've been listening to an ABC podcast.
在ABC Listen应用上，你可以发现更多精彩的ABC播客、直播电台和独家内容。
Discover more great ABC podcasts, live radio, and exclusives on the ABC Listen app.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。