迈克尔·格雷格博士——如何不死

那时候可没有盐瓶，对吧？

There was no salt shakers, right?

大草原上也不可能有薯片这种东西，对吧？

There was no, you know, potato chips out in the savannah, right?

所以我们极度渴求盐、糖和脂肪这些物质。

And so we had this desperate need for salt, sugar, fat, and so those are natural biological drives.

所以那时候，嗯，没错。

So back then, oh, yeah.

哦，你知道，我们对甜味的渴望让我们从灌木丛中摘食大量蓝莓。

Oh, the you know, our sweet sensation made us eat a lot of blueberries off the bush.

对吧？

Right?

这对我们的生存是有益的。

That was a good thing for our bites.

但现在，我们并不处于热量匮乏的状态。

But now, right, now we're not in a state of of caloric deficiency.

对吧？

Right?

事实上，在大多数工业化国家，我们摄入的卡路里实际上太多了。

In fact, in most of the, you know, industrialized world, we actually get too many calories.

现在的问题是，食品工业利用这些同样的生理需求，反过来对付我们。

Now it's a matter the industry has taken those same drives, turned it against us.

哦，你喜欢甜食？

Oh, you like sweet?

来点汽水怎么样？

How about some soda pop?

哦，你喜欢咸的？

Oh, you like salty?

来点薯片怎么样？

How about some chips?

哦，你喜欢，你知道的，高脂肪食物？

Oh, you like, you know, fatty?

要知道，在以前这是一种生存机制。

Well, you know and so before, it was a survival mechanism.

敲开骨头、搜寻脑髓和骨髓，这些行为让我们活到生育年龄得以传递基因。

You know, cracking open bones and scavenging for brains and bone marrow, that got us to the that got us to just a reproductive age to pass along our genes.

对吧？

Right?

现在呢？

Now right?

事实上，如果你用时光机空投些奶油夹心蛋糕到那个年代，那些尼安德特人——奶油蛋糕尼安德特人——就会征服其他所有人。

In fact, you could have if you air time machine airdropped some Twinkies back then, those Neanderthals the Twinkie Neanderthals would go and conquer everybody else.

当时是热量匮乏的时代，不择手段获取热量，明白吗？

It was calorie deficiency, calories through any means necessary, right?

但现在我们不仅仅想活到生育年龄，对吧？

But now we don't just want to live the reproductive age, right?

现在我们活得足够久，反而开始遭受慢性病的折磨。而那些高脂高盐食品正在损害我们的健康——当然这些正是热销商品。

Now we live old enough to actually start suffering from chronic diseases, And chronic diseases, well, then, you know, those fatty foods, those salty foods are working against us, but of course that's what sells.

好消息是，所以我在说什么？

The good news is so am I saying what?

哦，所以我不吃健康食品，就什么都尝不出好味道了？

Oh, so I'm not eating healthy, nothing's going to taste good?

一开始确实是这样。

At first, that's true.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，世界上最熟的桃子，在你吃了一碗水果麦圈后也会尝起来酸酸的。

I mean, so the the ripest peach in the world will taste sour after a bowl of Froot Loops.

我是说，这只是因为你的味蕾被过度刺激了。

I mean, it'll just because your your taste buds are just overwhelmed.

对吧？

Right?

你突然开始低盐饮食，医生让你吃低盐食物，第一周所有东西吃起来都像纸板，对吧？

You all of sudden go on a low salt diet, your doctor puts you on a low salt diet, everything for the first week tastes like cardboard, right?

但你的研究表明，可以进行这类代谢病房研究，把人们关在房间里，实际上严格控制他们的饮食摄入。

But what you show I mean, you can do these kind of metabolic ward studies, lock people in a room, actually, you know, very tightly control what people eat.

你让人们按自己口味给汤加盐，测量他们加了多少盐，然后让他们进行低盐饮食，几周后他们反而更喜欢少盐的口味。

So you have people salt soup to their liking and you measure how much salt they put in, and then you put them on a low salt diet and a few weeks later they actually prefer less salt.

于是你给他们原本觉得最美味的汤，他们会觉得‘太咸了’。

And so you give them the soup that originally tasted the best, Oh, it's too salty.

你不喜欢了，对吧？

You don't like it, right?

所以你的味蕾会自然适应。

And so your taste buds naturally evolve.

事实上，对于糖分，这种适应最快五天就能发生。

In fact, with sugar, it can happen as few as five days.

只要五天不吃这些超甜食物。

You cut out these super sweet foods within five days.

而且，完整健康的食物也会变得美味起来。

Also, whole healthy foods taste good.

我是说，人们看到我吃一个烤红薯，上面撒了点肉桂粉，他们就会说，哦，我永远过不了那种精致生活。

I mean, people see me eat a sweet potato, baked sweet potato with a little cinnamon sprinkled on top and they're like, Oh, I can never live that kind of aesthetic life.

但他们没意识到，不，那对我来说其实很好吃。

But they don't realize, no, that actually tastes good to me.

对吧。

Right.

只要五天不吃糖，对他们来说也会变得美味的。

And in five days of not eating candy bars, it would actually taste good to them too.

其实我是真心享受的。

I mean, actually, I enjoy it.

所以你两全其美。

So you get the best of both worlds.

等一下。

Wait a second.

既美味又能活得更久。

It tastes good and you get to live longer.

对吧？

Right?

但你必须给它一个机会，让味蕾从那些试图过度刺激它们的工业产品中恢复过来。

But you gotta give it a chance to to to to take back your taste buds from the industry that's trying to kind of supersaturate them.

好的。

Okay.

你是一直完全素食，还是曾经觉得也许吃点鱼类蛋白质或野禽蛋白质也可以？

Were you always completely plant based or at one point did you ever say, maybe some fish protein is okay or maybe some game bird protein is okay.

你知道有没有那么一段时间，你会觉得‘嗯，这样或许可行’或者‘哦’——

You know was there any a time where you were like, ah, this might work or you Oh,

听着，生日或节日特殊场合吃什么并不重要。

look, it doesn't matter what you eat on your birthday or holiday special occasion.

真正累积影响的是日常饮食，对吧？

It's just the day to day stuff that really adds up, right?

就像撞到小腿的比喻一样，明白吗？

It's just like the whack your shin analogy, right?

你的身体拥有惊人的自愈能力。

Your body has this remarkable capacity to heal.

但如果你每天用叉子戳它三次，它就没有机会愈合了，对吧？

It's just when you jab it with a fork three times a day every day and it just doesn't have the chance to heal, right?

我是说，世界上没有任何科学能证明那些社交吸烟者——确实有些人一年只在聚会上抽几支烟，却从未上瘾——没人能说一年抽几支烟会显著增加终生肺癌风险。

I mean, there's no science in the world that you can show me that suggests that social smokers these people, there are some people, they can pick up a few cigarettes at a party a year, right, and they never get hooked, no one's going to tell me that a few cigarettes a year is going to have any, you know, measurable increase in lung cancer risk, right, over a lifetime.

但医生之所以建议完全戒烟，是因为他们担心一支烟会变成两支，然后发展成每天一包的习惯。

But the reason a doctor says no smoking at all is they're afraid that one cigarette's going turn to two, then it's going to turn to a pack a day habit.

所以我们直接告诉人们彻底不要吸烟。

So we just tell people no smoking at all.

但这其实是基于一个认知：问题不在于那一支烟本身。

But that's out of a recognition that it's not the one cigarette that's going to do it.

对吧？

Right?

所以道理是一样的。

And so the same thing.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，虽然如此，但在日常生活中我们真的应该努力吃得更健康些。

I mean, so so but on a day to day basis, we really should try to eat healthier.

我小时候并没有这样的意识，你看，我亲眼目睹了我祖母身上发生的惊人转变。

Now, I didn't grow up so, you know, here I was as a kid seeing my this this remarkable transformation from my grandmother.

你在哪里长大的？

Where'd grow up?

嗯，我出生在迈阿密。

Well, so born in Miami.

好的。

Okay.

后来在西部长大，搬过几次家。

Then grew up out out West, moved around.

好的。

Okay.

有时候会带点南方口音。

It's like a little southern accent sometimes.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

没有。

No.

嗯，我不太明显，我妈妈是布鲁克林人。

Well, I don't so my mom was Brooklyn.

好吧。

Okay.

爸爸是皇后区的。

Dad was Queens.

所以要说有什么口音的话，可能我有点

And so if anything, maybe I got a

轻微

little in

事实上，我刚用布鲁克林口音说话。

fact, I just spoke in Brooklyn.

回去看看真好，我还展示了我妈妈的照片。

It's so nice to go back and I showed pictures of my mom.

她是布鲁克林核心成员，属于种族平等大会，这些照片记录了她民权运动期间被拖走逮捕的场景。

She was part of Brooklyn core, the congress on racial equality and all these pictures of her getting dragged away and arrested during the civil rights movement.

是个家族传统。

Was a family family.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

对吧？

Right?

我想我们就是那种使命感驱动的人吧。

We are just kind of mission driven folks, I guess.

我是说，我们就是看到不公正的事情。

I mean, we're we just see an injustice.

对吧？

Right?

我们想要改善这种情况。

And we wanna make it better.

好的。

Okay.

所以你是说你从小就没有这个'不'字。

And so you say you grew up not having this no.

所以对我来说，就像是，哦，对。

So so I mean, for me, it was like, oh, yeah.

奶奶必须那样吃因为她生病了。

Grandma has to eat that way because she's sick.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种治疗疾病的方法。

It's a treatment for sickness.

我年轻又健康。

I'm young and healthy.

我不需要治病。

I don't need a treatment for sick.

对吧？

Right?

只是当时没有意识到。

It was just and not realizing.

直到90年代奥尼什的论文发表，证明可以逆转心脏病——在美国这是男性和女性的头号杀手。

So it really wasn't until '90 when Ornish's paper came out showing the way you can reverse heart disease, which in The States is the number one killer of men and women.

在英国这是第二大杀手。所以男性和女性的头号杀手是可以逆转的。

Here, in The UK, it's the number two killer of So the number one killer of men and women can be reversed.

我当时就想，好吧，就这么定了。

I was like, All right, that's it.

我是说，我的家人亲眼见证了这一切，而现在它被白纸黑字地发表在了世界上最负盛名的医学期刊上。

I mean, my family had seen it with their own eyes, but here it was, published in black and white some of the most prestigious medical journals in the world.

当时的证据简直压倒性地让我无法忽视，于是我自己也开始这样饮食。

Like, the evidence at that point was just overwhelming that I couldn't ignore it, and so then started myself eating that way.

然后我意识到，哦，我本该一直这样吃的，只是之前没想通——啊，原来如此。

And with the recognition, Oh, I should have been eating this way all along, but it just didn't kind of click that, Oh, yeah, duh.

如果纯植物饮食能做到的仅仅是逆转人类头号或二号杀手，那它难道不该成为默认饮食方式吗？除非能证明其他饮食更好？

I mean, if that's all a plant based diet could do, reverse the number one or two killer of men and women, shouldn't that kind of be the default diet to prove otherwise?

而事实上它还能预防、逆转其他主要杀手，比如二型糖尿病和高血压，这让植物性饮食的优势简直不言而喻。

And the fact that it could also prevent arrest and reverse other leading killers like type two diabetes and high blood pressure, would seem to make the case for plant based eating simply overwhelming.

你今天吃了什么？

What'd you eat today?

天啊。

Oh my God.

其实吃得特别好。

I actually ate really good.

所以在路上不太方便。

So on the road, it's not so easy.

我发现自己身处机场美食广场，你知道的，那里没什么可吃的。

I find myself on an airport food court and, you know, there's there's not much to eat.

所以但是

So but

因为到处都是动物蛋白。

Because there's animal proteins everywhere.

我是说，都是加工食品。

I mean, it's just processed.

不过没有。

But no.

我们在希思罗机场住的酒店有提供素食早餐。

In the the hotel that we stayed in by by Heathrow here had a vegetarian breakfast thing.

英国的早餐是我推荐每个人都要吃的。uin

And and breakfast in The UK is what I tell everyone to eat.

早餐吃豆子。

Beans for breakfast.

我吃了豆子、番茄和蘑菇，算是传统英式早餐，只是没有香肠，没有加工肉制品。

I had beans and tomatoes and mushrooms, kind of traditional kind of British breakfast just without the sausage, without the processed meat.

实际上我告诉所有人，我鼓励大家一天吃三次豆类——豆子、裂豌豆、鹰嘴豆和小扁豆。

But I in fact, I tell everyone, you know, so I encourage people to eat legumes, beans, split peas, chickpeas, lentils three times a day.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

所以我说，早餐吃豆子怎么样？

And so I say, beans for breakfast?

像英国人那样吃。

Eat like the Brits.

你听到我说的了吗？

So you hear me?

我说早餐要像吃豆子那样吃，但在日本，他们有味噌汤，还有米糕。

I say, eat like the beans for breakfast, but does that you know, in in Japan, they have miso soup, and they have idli.

还有在印度

And in India.

我是说，早餐吃豆类并不算太奇怪

I mean, having legumes for breakfast is not so crazy.

在美国，早餐吃豆子？你在说什么呢？

In The US, like beans for breakfast, what are you talking about?

但在这里我可以吃

But so here I can eat.

我终于可以遵循自己的建议，像英国人那样吃早餐了

I can finally follow my own advice and eat like a Brit.

好的

Okay.

是啊

So yeah.

所以早餐很棒，然后是午餐

So a great a great breakfast and then lunch.

我来这里面试时，一边等待一边掏出手机查找一英里范围内的餐厅。

So I come here for the interview and and just pull out my phone and look for restaurants within the, like, one mile radius while I'm waiting around.

唰地一下，就出现了两家店。

And poof, two places show up.

一家叫'救赎'的餐厅，提供全植物性有机食品。

One, this restaurant called Redemption, whole food plant based.

实际上他们门口还挂着标识，写着'无糖、植物基'之类的宣传语。

In fact, there's a sign out front that says, you know, sugar free, plant based, you know, goes on it.

自由，自由，自由，自由。

Free, free, free, free.

那我们提供什么？

So what do we serve?

比如问号。

Like question mark.

比如这里面有什么？

Like what's in this?

就是那个吗？

Is that what it's

对，差不多就是那样。

It's just like what yeah.

不过当然不是啦。

Like But no, of course.

我刚吃了道超棒的菜，里面有紫薯、蘑菇、绿叶菜、黄菜花、黑芝麻，还配了花生酱。

It's just so I had this amazing dish with purple sweet potatoes and mushrooms and and greens and and and this yellow cauliflower and black sesame seeds and a peanut sauce.

简直好吃到爆。

It was absolutely fantastic.

完全符合我所有的饮食标准。

And so every checked off all my boxes.

我用过这个免费应用——格雷格医生的'每日十二项'，安卓和苹果都能用，里面列出了我推荐大家每天摄入的各种食物分量。

I had this free app, doctor Gregor's Daily Dozen, where I on Android and iPhone, everything, of course, is free, where, you know, it includes, you know, how many servings of all the foods I encourage people to get into their daily diet.

比如每天要吃的豆类、浆果、最健康的绿叶菜、最营养的蔬菜、一汤匙亚麻籽粉、四分之一茶匙姜黄、最佳饮品、最佳甜味剂、运动量要求等等等等。

So beans every day, berries every day, the healthiest foods, greens every day, the healthiest vegetables, tablespoon of ground flax seeds, quarter teaspoon of turmeric, the best beverages, best sweetener, how much exercise, blah blah blah.

你可以勾选这些方框来记录每日摄入情况，诸如此类。

And you can tick off the boxes and chart your daily product, whatever.

所以我就这么做了。

So here I am.

我一天所需的营养指标，一顿午餐就完成了一半。

I could have ticked off half my boxes for the day and one lunch.

然后你猜怎么着？

And then how about this?

至于甜点，有个叫Nana Bar的地方。

For for dessert, there's this place called Nana Bar.

对吧？

Right?

那里是个优质冰淇淋吧。

Where it is a nice cream bar.

它是用冷冻香蕉制作的冰淇淋。

So it's a ice cream made from frozen bananas.

就一种原料，冷冻香蕉，放进榨汁机或食物处理器之类的机器里，出来就像软冰淇淋一样。

One ingredient, frozen bananas, put through, like, some juicer or food processor or something, comes out like soft serve ice cream.

然后他们只提供全天然的食物，你知道的，就是那些配料。

And then they just have whole food, you know, toppings.

柜台后面的小伙子，他妈妈亲手做了格兰诺拉麦片。

And and the guy behind the counter gets his mom made the granola.

这多酷啊？

Like, how cool is that?

好吧。

Okay.

所以我正在把妈妈做的格兰诺拉麦片撒在冷冻香蕉冰淇淋上。

So I'm having his mom's granola on on on on frozen banana ice cream.

全是植物基食品，植物基甜点和餐点，完全随性。

So whole plant based food, plant based dessert and meal, and totally random.

就像，我都不用做功课，直接过来就能决定去哪吃。

Like, I didn't have to like do my homework, just showed up and where was I going to eat?

这种情况并非随处可见。

Now, this doesn't happen everywhere.

有时候我在阿肯色州之类的地方，就只能靠塔可钟的豆泥卷饼度日。

Sometimes I'm in Arkansas or something and I'm, you know, living off a Taco Bell bean burritos or something.

但当我有幸身处伦敦这样的大都市时，就能吃得健康。

But when I'm blessed to be in a great metropolitan city like London, I can eat healthy.

你可以做到的。

You can make it happen.

很简单。

Easy.

我是说，我甚至想都没想就做到了。

I mean, I didn't even without a second thought.

是啊。

Yeah.

你说自己在吃植物性饮食，但刻意避开了'纯素'这个词。

Now you say that you're in a plant based diet, but you don't use the v word, the vegan word.

是否有理由不这样做？而且你也知道我这里来过素食主义者，我很欣赏他们，但他们往往带有一种特定的文化，很多时候对肉食者会表现出相当对抗的态度。就像那个老笑话说的：你怎么知道遇到的是素食主义者？

Is there a reason not to do that and also because you know I've had vegans on here, and I and I love it But also they have a specific culture that's also a lot of times quite combative when it comes to meat eaters and things like that And there's the old joke you know how do you know when you met a vegan?

给他们几分钟，他们自己就会告诉你。

Give them a few minutes and they'll tell you.

所以你是在试图与那种形象保持距离吗？还是你对整个现象有什么看法？

And so are you trying to kind of disassociate from that or what's your read on the whole thing?

嗯，作为一名医生，像‘素食者’、‘纯素食者’这类词汇并不能告诉我你吃了什么。

Well, I mean, so as a physician, the I mean, the words vegetarian, vegan, they don't tell me what you eat.

它们只能告诉我你不吃什么。

I mean, there's it tells me what you don't eat.

对吧？

Right?

但市面上确实有很多垃圾素食食品。

But there's lots of really garbage vegetarian food.

你可以靠薯片和汽水过活。比如我去大学校园演讲时就常见到这种情况。

You could eat live off of chips and soda and, you know, I mean and, know, I go speak at these college campuses.

他们基本上就靠薯片和啤酒过活。

They live off of, you know, chips and beer, basically.

对吧？

Right?

这些大学生们，你知道的，不在乎健康，他们这么做是为了应对全球变暖之类的原因。

These these college beans that, you know, don't care about their health, they're doing it for, like, global warming reasons or whatever.

而且你可以吃得非常糟糕。

And they're you can eat a miserable diet.

对吧？

Right?

而全食物植物基饮食则告诉我你实际在做什么。

Whereas whole food plant based, tells me actually what you're doing.

哦，你确实会吃蔬菜。

Oh, you actually eat your vegetables.

现在我们能理解了，对吧？

Now we can, right?

因此很遗憾，它提供的信息量并不充分。

And so unfortunately, it's just not as informative.

此外，这类标签还附带了一些包袱——就像你的健康其实与是否系真皮腰带毫无关系。

Plus, there is this kind of baggage that comes along with it, whereas, like, for your health, it doesn't matter whether you have a leather belt on or not.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，它们还伴随着其他东西。

I mean, they have other things that come along with it.

所以这更像是一种身份认同而非行为描述。如果要讨论素食主义，我宁愿用'素食饮食'或'素食餐'这样的表述，而不是把'vegan'当作名词化的身份标签，因为后者会筑起一道隔阂。

And so it's like an identity as opposed to like, so if you're going to talk about vegan, I would prefer talking about vegan eating or a vegan meal as opposed to vegan the noun identity because that sets up this kind of barrier.

比如人们可能说'我不一定想成为素食主义者，但我希望看着孩子长大，想要保持健康'。

Like, well, I don't want to be a vegan necessarily, but Oh, yeah, I want to see my kids grow up and I want to be healthy.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

所以饮食中全植物性食品占比越高越好。

So the more and more whole plant foods one can center their diets around, the better.

所以这是一个连续光谱。

And so it's a spectrum.

世界上关于植物性食材的最大规模研究原本是在英国进行的，直到Adventist II接手了这项在美国（尤其是加利福尼亚和加拿大）开展的大型研究。

So the largest study of plant based ingredients in the world actually used to be here in The UK until Adventist II took over this massive study in The States, particularly California and Canada.

这项研究追踪了数万名采用植物性饮食的人群，结果显示：他们将非素食者与所谓的半素食者或弹性素食者（每周而非每日摄入肉类的人群）、除鱼类外不摄入其他肉类的鱼素者、完全不摄入肉类的蛋奶素食者、以及不摄入任何肉类/蛋奶的纯素食者进行对比，发现疾病风险呈现阶梯式下降——每提升一个饮食层级，患二型糖尿病、高血压和肥胖症的风险就会显著降低。

So following tens of thousands of people eating plant based diets and shows this kind of so they compared non vegetarians to so called semi vegetarians or flexitarians, people eating meat more like a once a week basis rather than a daily basis compared to pescatarians, those who know meat except fish, compared to ova lacto vegetarians who know meat at all, compared to vegans who know meat, eggs, or dairy, and shows this kind of stepwise drop, where each level is significantly lower disease risk for type two diabetes and high blood pressure and obesity.

因此即便是蛋奶素食者（至少在美国），平均体重也处于超重状态。

Such that even lacto ovo vegetarians, at least in The States, are on average overweight.

他们的BMI实际上超过了25。

Their BMI is actually over twenty five.

唯一符合理想体重的饮食群体是那些更严格遵循植物性饮食的人。

The only dietary group actually fit in ideal weight were those eating more strictly plant based diets.

所以这并不是非黑即白的事情。

So it's not black and white.

这不是全有或全无的选择。

It's not all or nothing.

我认为这是一个重要的信息：在健康饮食的谱系上，我们每前进一步都能积累显著益处。

Any movement we can make along the spectrum towards eating healthy can accrue significant benefits I think it's important message.

好的。

Okay.

你是科学家。

You're a scientist.

你是医生。

You're a doctor.

所以这很合理。

So that makes sense.

你关注的是吃进嘴里的东西如何让人更长寿健康，而不是腰带上系什么。你在意事实和科学对吧？我最近其实在进行低盐饮食——因为参加死藤水仪式必须禁食很多食物。回来后发现，我真的不再渴望盐分和某些食物了。另一个变化是我开始多做自重训练，减少器械举重，发现自己正逐渐转向以蔬菜为主的饮食。而且我更关注身体反应了，比如初次进食时如果感到不适，为什么还要继续吃呢？

You're like what you put in your mouth that's gonna make you live longer and healthier as opposed to what belt you wear as opposed to what you were so you care about the facts and the science right I Went on a low salt diet actually I was doing an Ayahuasca ceremony So I had to not eat a lot of foods and I found that once I came back on it I didn't really want the salt and I didn't really want some of those food and other thing that's happened to me with me lately is I've been doing a lot of body weight exercises less of the lifting weights and I found that I'm just I'm trending toward more of a vegetable based diet and also I'm listening to my gut a little bit more like if it hurts a little when I first eat it, why do I keep eating it?

我不知道。

I don't know.

这些现象是否只是其他症状的表现？

Do these things are these just other symptoms?

你会考虑这些事情吗？还是说你会回到原来的习惯？

Do you think about this stuff or do you go back to the

不会。

No.

这里面有非常良性的反馈循环。

There's really nice feedback loops.

我是说，这些都是迹象。

I mean, it is all the sign.

我的意思是，这就是为什么我鼓励人们去尝试。

I mean, so I mean, that's what that's why I encourage people to, you know, give it a try.

对吧？

Right?

就像试吃免费样品一样去尝试。

Try it as a as a, like, a free sample.

对吧？

Right?

任何人都可以坚持几周不吃某些食物。

Anyone can eat anything for a few weeks.

对吧？

Right?

事实上，几周不吃东西也是可以的。

In fact, can eat nothing for a few weeks.

我是说，你看，关键在于——想到'我这辈子再也不能吃辣香肠披萨了'这种念头

I mean, I mean, so look, it's just, and so the thought of, wait a second, I can't eat pepperoni pizza for the rest of my life?

简直让人难以置信。

Like, that's just mind blowing.

人们甚至无法接受这种想法。

People can't even consider that.

当然，我不是那个意思，但日常生活中我还是想吃得健康些。

Of course, that's not what I'm saying, you know, but on a day to day basis, I want to eat healthy.

我说：'不不不，给我三周时间适应，好吗？'

I said, No, no, no, give me three weeks, right?

那就三周时间，我们健康饮食，我会给你这些建议。

So three weeks, let's eat healthy, I'll give you all these tips.

其实，有个很棒的非营利组织'责任医师委员会'运营的21天启动计划。

You know, in fact, there's this great twenty one day kickstart program run by an organization, a nonprofit called Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.

每月1号开始，已有数十万人参与过。

It starts at the first of every month, hundreds of thousands of people have done it.

支持多种语言。

It's a bunch of different languages.

完全免费注册。

Sign up, it's all completely free.

你可以把它当作社交媒体小组来参与。

You do it as kind of a social media group.

大家一起注册，分享食谱，每天获取小贴士等。

You all sign up together, and you share recipes, and you get daily tips and stuff.

每月1号，21天启动计划。

And the first of every month, twenty one Day Kickstart.

我想应该是21daykickstart.org之类的网站。

So I think it's 21daykickstart.org, something like that.

再次强调，就是教大家具体怎么做。

So again, just giving people the hows to actually do it.

但记住，只要21天，理念是21天后你的味蕾会突然改变，食物尝起来更美味，你也会感觉更棒。

But again, just twenty one days, and the thought is, look, twenty one days all of sudden your taste buds are changing, the food is tasting better, and you're feeling better.

突然间，哦，你的睡眠质量也变好了。

And so all of a sudden, Oh, your sleep is better.

人们会说，哦，你状态很好，年轻又健康，没有任何症状。

People are like, Oh, you're doing fine and young and healthy, you have no symptoms.

他们原以为自己没有症状。

Then they thought they didn't have symptoms.

然后发现，哦，我的慢性消化不良消失了。

They're like, Oh, my chronic indigestion went away.

我还以为饭后总是胀气难受是正常的呢。

I just thought that was normal to just always feel bloated and gross after meals like this.

但现在不同了，我的肠道功能规律了，经期疼痛也减轻了。

But no, now, you know, so my bowel regulate, my periods are less painful.

我是说，感觉真的好多了。

I mean, they just feel so much better.

于是他们就有了这种内在动力。

So then they have this internal motivation.

不再是那种'几十年后你不会中风'之类的遥远承诺，而是切身体会到'哇，我感觉好多了'。

No longer is it like, Oh, yeah, a few decades down the road, you're not going have a stroke or something, but it's this internal, Wow, I feel so much better.

事实上这就是为什么做这类研究时——说到科学——经常会采用所谓的ABA实验设计，先记录基线数据，再让人群转换饮食观察变化，最后又切换回原饮食来确认确实是饮食的作用。

In fact, that's why, you know, when they do these studies, talking about science, often they do what's called the ABA design, where you put people switch people to a diet, so you have before and after, and then you switch them back to make sure it was actually the diet.

你先让人们从常规饮食转为特殊饮食，然后观察变化。

So you switch people from their regular diet to a special diet, and then you see changes.

你会想：等等，这该不会只是巧合吧？

You want say, Wait a second, was that just coincidence that that happened?

于是再让他们恢复原饮食，看看是否一切真的又回到了最初状态。

You switch them back to their original diet to if indeed everything went back to normal.

所以已经有一些研究将人们转为植物性饮食，对吧？

And so there's been these studies done where they switch people to a plant based diet, right?

比如针对偏头痛和各种不同医疗状况的研究，类风湿性关节炎等。

So for it's been done for like migraines and a bunch of different medical conditions, rheumatoid arthritis.

让参与者转换饮食几周后，按照研究协议他们需要恢复原有饮食，因为这时关节感觉好转了。

So switch people for a couple weeks, and then part of the study protocol, they have to go back to the original diet because then, you know, your joints feel better.

我们想确认关节症状确实会恶化。

We want to make sure your joints actually feel worse.

但他们拒绝这么做。

And they refuse to do it.

太多研究对象拒绝恢复原有饮食，这破坏了研究设计。

And so many study subjects refuse to go back to their original diet, it screws up the study.

事实上，我们不得不将这些违反协议的人从研究中剔除。

In fact, we have to throw out those people from the study because they violated the protocol.

因此科学数据实际上低估了实际情况的效果。

And so actually, the science comes out and actually underestimates the fact.

对吧？

Right?

效果太显著了，我们甚至无法展示完整研究结果，因为他们感觉好多了，根本不愿意完成这项研究。

It's so powerful we can't even show it because they won't even finish the darn study because they just feel so much better.

他们直接表示：'我才不要回去呢。'

They're like, well, I'm not going back.

我感觉好多了。

I feel so much better.

疯了吗？

Are crazy?

给我钱我都不愿意回到原来的饮食方式。

You couldn't pay me to go back to the original diet.

但你不尝试就永远不会知道。

And so that but you don't know until you give it a try.

对吧？

Right?

你不尝试就永远不知道这种感觉有多好。

You don't know how good you can feel until you give it try.

然后你会有种内在的感觉，看，我感觉好多了。

And then you have the internal like, feel look, I feel better.

就像，根本不在乎。

Like, don't care.

所以，你看，就算有全世界的科学依据，但我知道自己的身体感受，这样吃让我感觉更好。

So, you know, and then all the science in the world, you know, it's like, well, I know how my body feels and I feel better eating this way.

而且确实很棒，科学证明这会降低我患其他各种疾病的风险。

And yeah, it's great that science shows it's gonna reduce my risk of all this other stuff.

但再说一次，你不尝试就永远不会知道。

But but again, you don't know till you give it a try.

所以我真的鼓励我的病人们都去尝试。

So that's really what I encourage my patients to do.

我是美国人，在美国长大的。

I'm American, and growing up in America.

我只是在想，我们该如何打破这种饮食循环。

I'm just wondering how we break this cycle of eating.

你知道吗，我还记得，你的牛排有多大？

You know, I still remember, you know, how big is your steak?

你看，所有这些食物几乎像是美国人的权利——我的薯条、我的油炸食品、我的这个那个。我看了《奶牛阴谋》这部电影，我知道你参演了续集。当他们被问及时，人们会说：等等，你让我减少淋浴用水来节水？但为什么不是通过不吃肉来节水呢？所有人都觉得：我们不能要求人们改变饮食习惯，否则他们会反抗。因为这涉及到非常个人化的选择，特别是对美国人而言。但我们该如何改变这个循环？更糟的是，当我心脏出问题时，我去看医生，他给我开他汀类药物——这基本上是他被推广要做的，这资助了整个医疗行业。电视上还播放着90秒精美广告，说这药会让我快乐。我是说，这里有个疯狂的恶性循环。

You know, you the all these foods that almost seem like an American right to have my fries and to have my deep fried this and to have my this and to have my that and you know I watched this movie Cowspiracy I know you were in the sequel to that movie and you know when they asked them they said wait a second you want me to reduce my shower volume of the water to save water and they said but what about not eating meat to save water and everyone's like well We can't ask people to change their diet or they'll they'll revolt and it because it's such a personal thing to ask maybe an American to or maybe anybody But how do we change the cycle and then on top of that when my heart gets diseased I go to my doctor He writes a prescription for a statin that he basically you know is Promoted to do it's it funds the medical industry they put out a beautiful ninety second ad on TV about how it's gonna make me happy I mean, there's a crazy vicious cycle going on here.

我们该如何打破这个循环？

How do we break that?

我是说，这是非常个人化的事情。

I mean, it's it's a very personal thing.

谈论饮食就像谈论宗教、谈论政治一样敏感。

I mean, talking about diet, it's like talking about religion, talking about politics.

这真的触及到个人非常深层的部分。

I mean, it's really deeply personal.

就像是在说：等等，你听我说。

It's like, basically, I'm saying, wait a second.

你是说，我母亲给我吃的东西对我有害？

You you tell me what my mother fed me was bad for me?

你知道，嘿，别说了，我们别谈这个了好吗？

I you know, hey, don't get me let's not go know?

我的母亲。

About my mother.

别谈论我的妻子。

Don't talk about my wife.

什么？

What?

你什么？

You what?

对。

Right.

所以是的。

And so yeah.

所以，你知道，通常我会在自己的实践中先不减少任何饮食摄入。

So, you know, oftentimes so what, you know, what I've done in my own practice is I start out not taking anything away.

我只是鼓励多吃健康食品。

I just encourage to eat more healthy foods.

所以我...你知道，我并没有减少任何东西。

So I I you know, so I'm I'm not taking anything away.

就像，好吧。

It's like, okay.

我希望你每天吃这个，每天吃份沙拉，把这些食物加入你的饮食中。

I want you to eat this every day, have a salad every you know, and add these foods to your diet.

我希望你每天吃这么多水果。

I want you eat this much fruit every day.

然后他们会觉得，哦，他们并没有被剥夺感，而且食物多得让你知道，胃容量总是有限的。

And then they feel, oh, they're not have feeling deprived, and they got too much food in hopes that you're kinda you know, there's only so much you can fit.

一个人每天能摄入的热量总是有限的。

There's only so many calories you can get in a day.

所以你希望通过鼓励人们多吃健康食物，让他们自然没有空间摄入那些不太健康的选择，从而逐渐走上健康之路。

And so you're hoping by, you know, eating some of the healthiest foods, inspiring people to some they they they just don't have enough room for some of the the less healthy options at of the day, so they can kind of start down that path.

然后他们会开始感觉健康，并逐渐喜欢上这些食物，开始尝试新的食物。

Then they start feeling healthy and they start getting a taste of these foods, start experimenting with new foods.

人们常有这样的困惑：我该吃什么呢？

People have the sense that, know, like, what am I going to eat?

这会限制我的饮食选择。

Would constrict my diet.

实际上，调查显示大多数人通常只吃八到九种不同的餐食。

Many people actually, if you ask them, people tend to only eat eight or nine meals on surveys.

平均而言，人们晚餐通常只吃大约八到九种不同的菜品。

Average, people only tend to eat about eight or nine dinner meals.

基本上就是循环吃这些。

Just kind of rotate through.

这确实是一种相当单调有限的肉类选择。

Really kind of a boring restricted kind of reservoir of of meat.

而实际上当你发现外面有一整片充满可能性的海洋，各种精致的民族美食，那些你从未尝试过的食物，你可能会发现比那些标准常规的、普通的、不一样的、你知道的、口味和烹饪方式更喜欢的。

And when actually you discover that there's this whole ocean of other possibilities out there, all sorts of neat ethnic cuisines, foods you never tried that, you know, you might actually like more than just the standard kind of, you know, regular, you know, I don't know, just different, you know, flavors, preparing.

你知道，很多人从小到大都不知道鹰嘴豆泥是什么，直到尝到后惊叹‘这真的很好吃’。

You know, a lot of people, you know, grew up, never knew what hummus was or never it's like, Wow, this stuff is really good.

所以这往往最终会扩展人们的饮食选择范围。

And, you know, I mean and so it often ends up expanding people's repertoire.

他们实际上正在食用比标准美式饮食或标准英式西方饮食更多样化、更丰富的饮食。

They're actually eating more interesting, more diverse diets than they ever were before, eating just kind of the standard American diet or the standard British Western diet.

所以你鼓励他们尝试一些新食物

So you try to encourage them to try some new foods and

对

see Right.

对

Right.

以任何必要的速度坚持下去。

And do it at whatever pace is necessary to stick with it.

你今天、明天或下周吃什么并不重要，重要的是十年后你会吃什么。

It doesn't matter what you eat today or tomorrow or next week, it's what going to be eating ten years from now.

所以按照你自己的节奏来。

And so go at whatever pace.

它必须是负担得起的。

It has to be affordable.

它必须美味可口。

It has to be delicious.

它必须对你和你的生活来说方便。

It has to be convenient for you and your life.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，任何人都可以捏着鼻子吃几天或几周他们不喜欢的东西，对吧？

I mean, anyone can hold their nose and eat something they don't like for a couple days or a couple weeks, right?

但那样就无法长期坚持了，对吧？

But then it's not going to be lifelong sustained, right?

这是一种生活方式。

This is a lifestyle.

对你而言这完全是另一种方式。

It's a whole different way for you.

那么余生你都能这样吃吗？

So for the rest of your life, can you eat this way?

如果答案是否定的，你就得继续尝试各种食物。

If the answer is no, you've to keep trying foods.

然后突然间你会发现一种早餐，你会想：噢，我以前从没吃过钢切燕麦。

And then all of a sudden you find a breakfast and you're like, Oh, I never had steel cut oats before.

哇，配上浆果和坚果这些真的很好吃。

Wow, these are really good with berries and nuts and all.

哇，好吧，我能想象自己这样吃，你知道的，这种多样化的优质食物。

Wow, okay, I could see myself eating this way, you know, this variety of really good food.

好的，那么你就相当于在清单上打了个勾：我找到了一份非常棒的常备早餐。

Okay, so then you've got like, you know, you ticked off a box for, I've got a really good go to breakfast.

好的，然后你会想：有哪些适合我工作场所的午餐选择呢？

Okay, and then you're like, What are some lunch options that fit into my workplace or whatever?

所以你看，如果这需要几周、甚至几个月时间——我们讨论的可是你的长寿问题。

And so, and look, if this takes weeks, if this takes months, we're talking about, your longevity.

我们讨论的是如何延长你的寿命。

We're talking about adding years to your life.

我们讨论的是如何为你的生命增加健康的岁月，这样你才能真正为社会创造价值、享受生活，对吧？

We're talking about adding healthy years to your life so you actually be productive to society, enjoy life, right?

健康的人更能享受生活乐趣。

Healthy people have more fun.

这就是我想传达的信息。

That's the message I want to give.

健康的人更快乐，不是吗？

Healthy people have more fun, right?

对很多人来说，尤其是年轻人，他们可能没有亲眼见过至亲重病或离世的经历。

For people, particularly young people, a lot of people, they may not have a close relative that's actually been really sick or actually seen somebody die.

但你看，我们医生在医院工作，对吧？

But see, we physicians, we're in the hospitals, right?

我们亲眼目睹疾病有多可怕，对吧？

We see how horrible the disease is, right?

我会带所有糖尿病患者去透析病房看看

I mean, I take all my diabetics to a dialysis ward.

除非你去过透析病房，否则你不会明白失去肾功能是什么感觉

Unless you've been to a dialysis ward, you don't know what it's like to lose your kidney function.

那里是什么样子？

What's it look like?

哦，首先那里有股尿骚味

Oh, I mean, so first of all, there's this stench of urine.

你根本躲不开，因为这基本上就是透析的过程

You just can't get away from it because basically that's what you're doing.

他们在过滤尿液，因为肾脏已经失去功能了

You're filtering out the urine because they no longer had kidney function.

没错。

Right.

而且...所以，你知道，患者必须去那里，每天要花好几个小时连着这台循环血液的机器，这简直是最令人沮丧、精神崩溃的经历。

And and and so, you know, people have to go there, and it's literally hours hooked up to this machine that cycles throughout their blood, and it's the most depressed, soul crushing.

事实上，这个地方的员工流动率极高，就是因为患者死亡速度太快了。

In fact, the turnover at this place in terms of the employees, the staff is so great just because everybody dies so quickly.

实际上，开始透析后的平均预期寿命非常短。

In fact, the average life expectancy when you start dialysis is very short.

不过大多数糖尿病患者其实都撑不到透析阶段，因为他们会先死于心脏病——透析会大幅增加心脏病风险，在肾功能衰竭前就会先心脏病发作。

Though most diabetics actually don't make a dialysis because they die of heart disease first because dialysis so increases your risk of heart disease, you have a heart attack before your kidneys function, if kidney fail.

但人们没有意识到，比如失去自理能力这件事。

But people don't realize, like the loss of independence.

医院本身就是个可怕的地方。

Like hospitals horrible places to be.

我的意思是，如果你从未亲身经历过，你根本不会明白——你所有的梦想，人生规划，都会被残疾突然打断。

I mean, if you've never experienced that yourself, you just don't realize that whatever dreams you have, whatever you want to do with your life, I mean, you don't realize how cut short that would be by a disability.

突然间，你看不见了，这对你的人生和家庭意味着什么？

Then all of a sudden, like, you couldn't see, like, what would that mean for your life and your family?

就像，素食主义者谈论全球变暖和动物福利这些外在的、利他主义的东西。

Like, you know and so, yeah, the vegans talk about global warming and animal welfare, all these kind of other external kind of altruistic whatever.

但我说的可是实实在在的好处。

But no, I'm talking tangible benefits.

你的人生，你想做什么？

You, your life, what do you want to do?

你的目标是什么？你打算如何实现？我能怎么帮你？

Like what are your goals and you know, how are going to get there and how can I?

听着，这是你的身体，你的选择。

Look, it's your body, your choice.

你想抽烟吗？

You want to smoke cigarettes?

想去蹦极吗？

Want to go bungee jumping?

这是你的身体，由你决定。

It's your body, your choice.

做你想做的事。

Do whatever you want.

作为医生，我只能告诉你这些行为可能带来的可预见后果。

As a physician, all I can do is share with you what the predictable consequences of your actions are.

如果你继续吸烟，根据你的情况，这些是可能会发生的后果。

If you continue to smoke, this is what's likely to happen to people in your circumstance, you know.

所以我所能做的就是分享这些信息。

And so that's all I can do is share that information.

之后人们如何选择完全取决于他们自己。

Then what people do with it is completely up to them.

就我而言，只要所有人都知道真相，我就可以退休了。

As far as I'm concerned, look, as soon as everybody knows the truth, I'm retiring.

就这样。

That's it.

对吧？

Right?

让别人去做烹饪节目，教大家怎么做，让它变得方便又有趣。

Let other people have cooking shows, tell people how to do it, make it convenient, make it fun.

这没问题。

That's fine.

只要人们了解情况，能做出知情选择。

As long as people know, get to make that choice and informed consent.

比如说：我知道吸烟对我不好，我不会继续抽了。

Say, Yeah, I know smoking is not good for me, I'm not going continue doing it.

明白吗？

Okay, right?

看看你的体检报告，我是不会这么做的。但只要人们知道他们通过餐叉就能掌控自己的健康和寿命，只要人们明白这点，我的任务就完成了，我就可以躺在海滩上喝着我的羽衣甘蓝鸡尾酒享受生活了。

It looks your bio, I'm not going to do it, but as long as people know the power they have over their health and longevity through what is at the end of their fork, as long as people know that, then my job is done and I'm at the beach with my, you know, little little kale cocktail kicking back.

但你的工作永无止境，你还在外面到处宣扬这些理念。

But your job is never ending and you are out there preaching this stuff.

但数据显示美国的情况仍在恶化，我仍担忧——相信你也是——是否会出现一个临界点，当医疗支出占GDP的25%时会发生什么？

But the numbers in the are telling us that it's still going the other way in America And so is there gonna be this I still worry and I'm sure you do that there's gonna be this crisis moment And what is it when medical care becomes twenty five percent of GG?

难道要等到人们真的开始在我们眼前死去吗？

Is it when everyone just literally starts dying in front of our eyes?

我的意思是，这个信息究竟何时才能真正被接受？你做了了不起的工作，但趋势却往相反方向发展。

I mean, when it when is the message really gonna get through because you know, you're doing amazing work, but it's going in other.

去年是美国有史以来首次出现预期寿命下降的纪录年，基本上自建国以来从未有过。

So last year was the first year kind of a record where where the life expectancy actually declined in The US for the first time, basically, since our nation's founding.

自从我们摆脱英国统治后，这是头一遭。

Once we got out of the British yoke, that was ever since then.

这就是生意。

It's just business.

要知道，虽然整体趋势是上升的，但这是首次出现逆转，对吧？

So life, know, it's been going on, I mean, generally, but then for the first time, right?

我们将见证美国历史上第一代寿命比父母更短的儿童。

So we're looking at the first generation of children in The United States living shorter lives than their parents.

为什么呢？

And why?

因为肥胖、糖尿病。

It's because obesity, diabetes.

所以还有很多工作要做，对吧？

And so there is work to be done, right?

但我的意思是，到底多摄入了多少卡路里？

But I mean it's like how many more calories?

我是说，为什么会出现肥胖流行病？

I mean it's like no like why is there an obesity epidemic?

看看现在人们摄入的卡路里比70年代多了多少，这简直是一一对应的关系，哇，是的，每天多吃这么多卡路里就会增重这么多。

Look how much calories people are eating now compared to the 70s, and it literally tracks one to one, like, woah, yeah, this is how much weight you would put on eating this many more calories a day.

这就是人们增加的体重。

This is how much weight people put on.

我是说，这根本不是什么谜。

I mean, there's no mystery.

人们吃得更多了。

People are eating more food.

为什么？

Why?

因为，你知道，垃圾食品行业让人们整天吃垃圾食品，他们像强盗一样大发横财，却把医疗账单留给了整个社会，造成了巨大的人道代价。

Because, you know, the junk food industry is getting people to eat garbage all day and they're making off like bandits but leaving, you know, this healthcare bill not for the government, for all society, and this tremendous human cause.

但你看，我希望人们能够重获健康。

But look, you know, so I'm hoping people will be able to take back their health.

就像吸烟一样，你知道，吸烟的高峰年份是在50年代，那时美国人均年消费4000支香烟，意味着平均每人每天吸半包烟。

You know, just like this, you know, in smoking, the peak year of smoking so it used to be back in the 50s, the average per capita cigarette consumption in The States, 4,000 cigarettes a year per So that means the average person walking around smoked half pack a day on average.

对吧？

Right?

这

It's

太疯狂了。

crazy.

媒体曾经

Media was

告诉人们吸烟——政府、医疗行业都在这么做。

telling people that smoke the the government, the medical profession.

对吧？

Right?

所以一方面，整个医疗行业、政府和媒体都在鼓励你吸烟。

So on one hand, you had all the medical profession, the government, the media telling you smoke.

另一方面，你只有科学依据——如果你甚至知道那些研究的话，而很多人并不知道。

On the other hand, all you had was the science, if you were even aware of that body language, which many people weren't.

因此吸烟率在1964年达到顶峰，之后每年都在下降。

So that peaked in 1964, then basically went down every year since in terms of smoking.

他说，等等，1964年发生了什么？

And he said, wait a second, what happened in 1964?

《卫生局长吸烟危害报告》在那年发布了。

The Surgeon General's report against smoking came out.

当时，这需要7000项研究。

Now, at that point, it took 7,000 studies.

因此1964年的卫生局局长报告引用了7000项将吸烟与疾病联系起来的研究。

So Surgeon General's report in 1964 referenced 7,000 studies linking smoking with the disease.

你会以为在前6000项研究之后就该给人们提个醒什么的。

You'd think after the first 6,000 it could give people a little heads up or something.

不，非要7000项研究才行，对吧？

No, 7,000 studies, right?

这就是当局正式承认前所需的证据量。

That's what it took before the powers that be officially recognized.

而且我们早在上世纪三十年代就有证据表明吸烟有害健康，但直到当局正式表态才产生实际影响。

And again, we had evidence going back to the thirties, right, that smoking wasn't good for you, but again, it didn't hit it wasn't until the powers that be actually came out and said it.

因此我认为我们今天处于类似境地，被各种矛盾信息狂轰滥炸。

So I believe we're in a similar situation today, where having very similar bombarded with messages.

科学结论很明确，但我们接收到的饮食建议却...

The science is clear, yet the message we get about what we eat.

那么，我们还需要多久才能等到下一份关于饮食的卫生局局长报告呢？

And so how long is it going to take before, you know, we get the next kind of Surgeon General's report about diet?

你知道，当我演讲时

You know, so when I was speaking

二十年？

Twenty years?

去年我在疾病控制与预防中心的慢性病部门演讲时，那实际上是他们问我的第一个问题。

Well, I was speaking last year before the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, their chronic disease unit, that was actually the first question I got.

问题是：好吧，你希望我们对此采取什么行动？

It was, Okay, what do you want us to do about it?

好的，我是说，你知道饮食的力量。

Alright, I mean, you know, the power of diet.

没有人质疑科学依据。

No one questions the science.

比如，如果我到处谈论迪恩·奥尼什的研究成果——比如我去参加大型医学会议时，没人会说‘哦，那个...’——我的意思是，没人能否认这一点。

Like, I go around So if you go around and talk about Dean Ornish's work, for example, I go to these big medical conferences, no one says, Oh, that's I mean, no one can say that.

这些都是发表在顶级期刊上的随机对照试验。

Mean, these are randomized controlled trials published in the best journals.

他们会说，'哦，我的病人做不到'。

What they say is, Oh, my patients won't do it.

他们带着这种居高临下的态度。

They have this patronizing attitude.

我甚至没法让我的病人戒烟。

I can't even give my patients stop smoking.

更别提提这个了。

Not even going to bring this up.

他们在替病人做决定，而不是给予病人自主权...总之，科学依据是毋庸置疑的，只是存在这种'人们可能不会照做'的顾虑。

They're making their mind up for the patients rather than giving patients the right to Anyway, so but the I mean, so but the the science isn't in contest, but just this sense of, you know, people might not do it.

所以我对CDC说，听着，1964年时你们只需要承认事实。

And so when CDC I I said, look, you know, in in 1964, you just have to, acknowledge the fact.

比如去年，世界卫生组织下属的国际癌症研究机构——这个官方机构负责判定物质的致癌性——将加工肉制品提升至1类致癌物。

So for example, last year, the World Health Organization, the IARC, the official body that determines what is and is not cancer causing, bumped up processed meat to category one carcinogen.

也就是说培根、火腿、热狗、香肠、午餐肉这些，对吧？

So that's bacon, ham, hot dogs, sausages, lunch meat, right?

这意味着我们确信加工肉类对人类致癌的确定性，等同于钚、香烟和石棉的致癌性。

Meaning, we are as certain processed meat causes cancer in human beings than we are that plutonium causes cancer, cigarette smoke, and asbestos.

这是已证实的人类致癌物，对吧？

It is a proven human carcinogen, right?

然而我们却让孩子带着这些去上学。

Yet, we send our kids to school with it.

就像学校午餐配一盒牛奶再加一盒香烟。

It's like school luncheys get like a carton of milk, carton of cigarettes.

我的意思是，我们现在做的就相当于这种事。

Mean, that's the equivalent of what we're doing.

那为什么疾控中心官网上不标明这点呢？

And so why isn't it on the CDC website?

世界卫生组织都说了加工肉是一类致癌物，对吧？

You know, the World Health Organization says processed meat is a category one carcinogen, right?

要知道，加工肉类会致癌。

Know, processed meat causes cancer.

如果公众能承认这个已成定论的科学事实，仅此而已。

If there was just this public acknowledgment of the settled science, that's all again.

然后你看，人们就可以自行选择。

And then look, then people can do whatever they want.

我不是说要禁止这些东西，对吧？

I'm not saying ban the stuff, right?

你想抽烟就抽。

You want to smoke, smoke.

想吃肉就吃。

You want to eat meat, eat meat.

但至少要明白这可能会对你的家人造成什么影响。

But recognize as long as you have an understanding of what this might be doing to your family.

这些行业的势力有多强大？

How powerful these industries?

牛奶、乳制品、加工食品。

Milk, dairy, processed food.

你知道，我最喜欢的一个例子就是...当时我参与了奥普拉·温弗瑞的诽谤案审判，如果你还记得的话，结果确实出人意料。

There's a you know, one of my favorite examples of the power of well, there's there's lots of and so I was involved in the Oprah Winfrey case, the defamation trial and if you remember And it it really didn't it was surprising.

要知道，那时候这里当然群情激愤——考虑到各种不确定性因素这完全可以理解——但这些情绪从未真正传到大西洋彼岸。

You know, back then, I mean, was, of course, all the fury here, understandably so, given the uncertainties, but it never really made it across the Atlantic.

就像...那边民众的公共意识里根本没有这个概念，不知道欧洲这边人们正在应对这个问题。

Like, people it it wasn't kinda in the public consciousness over there that that that people were dealing with, this problem over here in Europe.

对。

Right.

那就简单给大家解释下疯牛病吧。

And just break down mad calf disease real quick for people.

我是说...

I mean

哇，这个...

So oh, wow.

所以在英国这里，我们得谈谈疯牛病，这种由朊病毒引起的疾病源于用动物蛋白喂养牛只的做法。

So here in Britain, gotta talk about so, yeah, bovine springs so the it it this this prion is this disease that arose from the the practice of feeding, animal protein to cows.

就是用牛喂牛，羊喂羊，山羊喂山羊。

So feeding cows to cow, sheep to sheep, goes to goat.

这种蛋白质循环利用使得这种脑部病原体得以通过食物链传播。

And so the this kind of protein recycling enabled this brain pathogen to be spread through the food chain.

正常情况下，牛应该是草食动物。

Now, normally, cows would be herbivores.

它们永远不会吃同类的脑部，永远不会同类相食。

They'd never eat the brains of their they'd never be cannibals.

对吧？

Right?

我们某种程度上把它们变成了这样，从而传播了这种原本不会传播的疾病。

We kinda made them into and that spread this disease that otherwise couldn't spread.

事实上，唯一类似的情况是巴布亚新几内亚的食人病库鲁病，那里也出现了同样的海绵状脑病，因为他们食用死者的脑部。

In fact, the only equivalent was this cannibal disease called kuru in Papua New Guinea, where there actually was the same spongiform encephalopathy because they ate the brains of the dead.

只要不吃死者的脑组织，你就没事。

So as long you don't eat the brains of your dead, you're fine.

但在英国，他们觉得这是个省钱的好办法。

But, you know, in Great Britain, they said, I got this great money saving.

为什么要花钱喂它们玉米和大豆呢？

Why feed them corn and soybeans that cost money?

不如喂它们脑组织吧。

Let's feed them brains.

喂它们屠宰场的副产品。

Let's feed them, you know, slaughterhouse byproducts.

肉和肉...

Meat and meat and

然后他们担心这种疾病可能会传染给人类。

And then they thought this disease might actually transfer to humans.

于是人们开始担忧：万一传染给人类怎么办？

And then the concern was, oh, what if it what if it what if it transfers to humans?