巴拉巴西博士解释营养暗物质、食物网络与衰老

我们可以做些事情来减缓它，但无法彻底消除它，对吧？

We can do something about to slow it down, but not to eliminate it, right?

那么，突变和表观遗传突变各自占多大程度？

And then, so to what degree it is mutations or epi mutations?

这是一个大问题。

It's a big question.

但在过去五到十年里，科学界确实转向认为，表观遗传变化比基于突变的变化更为重要。

But in the last five, ten years, indeed, community has switched to think that it's the epigenetic changes are more important than the mutation based changes.

一些非常精妙的实验已经提供了通过表观遗传重编程实现 rejuvenation 的证据，这强烈支持了这一观点，对吧？

And a few beautiful experiments that had managed to show evidence of rejuvenation by epigenetic reprogramming are strongly supporting that view, right?

因此，我们还没有客观的方法来判断衰老中遗传突变和表观遗传突变各自贡献了多少，但非常令人鼓舞的是，表观遗传重编程似乎能诱导出与有效 rejuvenation 相关的症状。

So we don't really have an objective way to think how much of the aging is due to genetic mutations as how much is to epigenetic mutations, but it's very, very encouraging encouraging the the fact fact that that epigenetic reprogramming seems to induce symptoms that seem to be related to effective rejuvenation.

所以这不是非此即彼，两者都存在。

So it's not one or the other, they're both there.

而证据正略微倾向于表观遗传的作用，如果这是真的，那么表观遗传的 rejuvenation 未来可能成为一种治愈手段。

And the evidence is shifting a little bit towards the role of the epigenetics, which if it's true, then epigenetic rejuvenation may be a cure down the line.

是的

Yeah.

所以你相信这可能是一个彻底的治愈方法，还是说——我想弄清楚，我们能活到5000岁吗？还是能活到200岁或150岁？你目前还不知道吗？

So you you believe that it might be a a full cure or it will be, again, I'm trying to understand, can we live to 5,000 or can we live to 200 and can we live to 150 or you don't know yet?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我抱有希望。

I'm hopeful.

我认为我们都抱有希望。

I think we are all hopeful.

我不认为有人真的能做到，或者如果有人这么说，我想看看他们的证据。

I don't think anybody as an as, or if they say so, I would like to see their evidence.

我认为我们都希望这能延长人类的寿命，至少能延长健康活跃的寿命，对吧？

I think we're all hopeful that this will lead to an extension of the human lifetime or at least the active lifetime, right?

这就是我们所说的长寿，也是你明信片所谈论的主题。

And that's what we call longevity and that's what your postcard is about.

所以我们不需要再向你的观众解释这一点了。

So we don't have to explain that one any longer to your audience.

如果我们实现了这一点，那就太好了。

And if we achieve that, that's beautiful.

我们会活到五千年还是两百年呢？

Are we gonna achieve five thousand years or two hundred years lifetime?

我对如何思考这个问题完全没有任何头绪。

I have absolutely no idea how to think about that problem.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我也是。

Me too.

但我同意你的观点，至少在其他生物体中，我们看到了通过表观遗传重编程实现寿命延长的令人鼓舞的迹象。

But I agree with you that it's very encouraging to see that at least in some other organism, we could see extension by epigenetic rejuvenation.

所以至少在那里，我们已经可以看到数据了。

So at least there, we we can see already the data.

关于衰老的讨论很棒，衰老是我最感兴趣的课题之一，但营养也是我最喜欢的课题之一。

Great discussion about aging, and aging is one of my favorite subjects, but also nutrition is is one of my favorite subject.

我知道这也是你最喜欢的课题之一。

And I know that is also one of your favorite subject.

你曾经影响并致力于，现在仍在研究这一非常迷人的领域，也就是你所说的营养暗物质。如今，如果你查看美国农业部数据库，每种食物大约由150种成分构成，而你展示的是，这些成分实际上不是150种，而是成千上万种。

And you influenced and worked on the, and still working on the very fascinating part of that, and that's what you call the nutritional dark matter, and and that's basically if you look today at the USDA database, there are around 150 ingredient that build each food item, and what you are showing is that they are not one fifty, they are thousands.

也许那些成分属于微量营养素，不是食物的主体部分，但它们可能极为重要。

Maybe the one that are a bit let's say, they are micronutrient, they are not the majority or the major part of the food, but they can be maybe a very important part of it.

你能向观众解释一下吗？

So can you explain that to the audience?

你是怎么发现这一点的？

How did you came to that?

到目前为止，你在营养暗物质方面发现了什么？

And what have you seen so far related to the dark nutrition dark matter?

当然。

Sure.

所以让我先退一步说，我们为什么会对这个问题感兴趣？

So let me maybe step back and say, why did we become interested in this problem?

我的实验室非常活跃的一个领域是我们所说的网络医学。

And so one of the area that my lab is very active is what we call network medicine.

网络医学真正承认细胞的组成部分并不是孤立的，生命本质上是这些组成部分之间的相互作用。

Network medicine really acknowledges the fact that the components of the cell are not isolated, but life is really about the interactions between the components.

所以，仅仅给你一份基因列表，并不能赋予生命，对吧？

And so just giving you the list of genes doesn't give you life, right?

真正决定生命的是蛋白质和分子之间的相互作用。

It's really the interactions between the proteins and the molecules that eventually survive.

网络医学是我大约在2005年左右开始在实验室里推动的。

And network medicine is something that I started to live up in my lab in kind of like around 2005 or so.

现在它已经成为一个庞大的学科，有非常多的人参与其中。

And now it's a big discipline and there are many, many people involved in that.

它的作用是尝试绘制细胞内的网络图谱。

And what it does is it tries to map out the networks within the cell.

我们开发了一系列工具，能够识别新的药物靶点、潜在的干预手段等。

And we developed a series of tools through which you can actually identify new drug targets, new potential interventions and so on.

其中一些已经投入市场，患者正在从中受益。

And some of these have already reached the market and patients are benefiting from it.

因此，这就是我在生物学领域所使用的基本工具集。

So that's really my basic tool set when it comes to biology.

但大约十年前，我们开始思考这个问题。

But about ten years ago, we started to think about it.

听好了，网络医学归根结底还是基于遗传学，对吧？

Well, listen, network medicine is ultimately still based in genetics, right?

因为细胞的组成部分是由基因组提供的。

Because the components of the cells are provided by the genome.

而我们在这里补充的是谁与谁相互作用，这也是基因编码的——即一种蛋白质如何与另一种蛋白质结合。

And what we are adding here is who's interacting with whom, which is also genetically encoded of how a protein can bite another protein.

但我们知道，仅靠基因组学只能解释非常小一部分疾病的成因，对吧？

But we know that genomics alone can only explain a very small percentage of disease causation, right?

我们人群中百分之十到二十的疾病可以归因于突变或基因组背景。

Ten to twenty percent of the diseases that we have in the population can be attributed to mutations or genomic background.

然后你总会问，其余的部分在哪里？

And then you always ask, where is the rest?

而其余的部分，我们总是说那是环境因素的影响。

And then the rest, we always say it's environmental effects.

那么环境因素是什么呢？

And what are the environmental effects?

嗯，是锻炼、压力、还有很多其他因素，但最显而易见的无疑是饮食。

Well, it's exercise, it's stress, it's lots of things, but the biggest gorilla in the room is always food.

为什么是饮食？

Why food?

因为每天，我都会吞下数千种分子，它们最终进入我的细胞，并以某种方式调节每个细胞的活性。

Because on a daily basis, I push down thousands of molecules through my throat that end up in my cells and they somehow modulate the activity of each of my cells.

所以我提出，好吧，我们来构建这些知识，把食物纳入网络医学的框架中。

And so I said, okay, let's go ahead and build that knowledge, the food into this network medicine picture.

那么，让我们看看这些分子是什么，它们如何影响网络以及组分之间的相互作用，因为只有这样，你才能真正影响细胞或我们的健康，对吧？

So let's see who are these molecules and how they are affecting the network, the interactions between the components, because that's the only way you can actually influence the cell or our health, right?

你必须在细胞层面上做点什么。

You have to somehow do something at the cellular level.

所以我们决定，找出这些分子究竟是谁。

So we said, let's find out who are these molecules.

我说，这应该很简单。

And I said, that's probably easy.

肯定有人已经建立了数据库。

Somebody will have a database.

但当我了解到根本没有这样的数据库时，我非常震惊。

And I was very shocked to learn that, no, we don't have that database.

然后你可能会说，那营养学呢？

And then you would say, well, how about nutrition?

你刚才其实也提到了这一点，对吧？

And you kind of pointed to that, right?

是的，营养学是一个非常成熟的领域，一直在研究食物中的分子。

Yes, nutrition is a very well established field that has been looking at the molecules that are in the food.

但当你仔细观察时，他们会只关注一类分子，那就是能量来源。

But when you look carefully, they only care about one class of molecules, which are the energy sources.

营养学实际上是在记录我们每日生存所需的化学物质。

Nutrition is really about cataloging the chemicals that we need to survive on a daily basis.

而我们生存所需的主要就是能量来源，对吧？

And what we need to survive are mainly energy sources, right?

还有氨基酸。

And amino acids.

因为它们是我们蛋白质的构建模块，而且我们需要维生素，对吧？

And because those are the building blocks of our proteins and we need vitamins, right?

因为维生素只不过是另一类化学物质，没有它们，身体的机制就无法正常运转。

Because the vitamins is just another way to say a small group of chemicals without which the machinery doesn't work.

你知道，这些是系统中的油脂，比如维生素C、少量铁和其他微量物质。

You know, these are the oils in the system like vitamin C and little iron and little thing.

它们的量不多，但刚好足够让系统正常运作。

They're not a lot, but just enough we need for the system to work.

但当你仔细观察食物中的成分时，你会发现，不仅有我们称为微量营养素的这150种分子，当我们刚开始研究时，发现食物中已被记录的分子多达两万种。

But then when you actually look at what's in the food, you realize that it's not only these 150 molecules that we call micro means, but first when we started to look at it, we realized there were 20,000 molecules that were documented to be in the food.

什么是‘被记录’的意思？

What does it mean to be documented?

意思是人们已经用质谱等化学分析方法研究过，确认这种分子存在于番茄中，那种分子存在于土豆中，这种分子存在于肉类中，但它们并不是营养成分。

That people have done mass spec on that, the chemical studies, and they said, this molecule is in tomato, this tomato is in potato, this one is in meat that are not nutritional components.

于是我们开始思考：我们该如何收集这些信息？

And so we started a process to say, how do we collect?

食物中到底有什么？

What's in the food?

而这个过程，也就是我现在实验室所整理的‘营养暗物质数据库’，目前已经收录了13.5万种分子。

And that process, the nutritional dark matter database that we curate in my lab now has 135,000 molecules.

现在你可能会问，这些是什么？

And now you would say, what are these?

它们对我们有什么影响？

What do they do to us?

过去，营养学家并非不知道食物中还含有其他分子，但普遍认为这些分子并不重要，对吧？

And previously, it's not that the nutrition people did not know that food would have other molecules, but the general belief was that they don't matter, right?

它们是惰性的。

That they are inert.

它们只是进出身体，因为它们不是能量成分。

They go in and out because they're not energy components.

所以我们不了解，但新陈代谢其实并不理会它们。

So we don't know, but the metabolism doesn't really see that.

但我们越来越意识到，情况并非如此。

But we increasingly realize that is not the case.

让我给你讲一个关于一类我们都知道很重要的分子的故事，那就是多酚。

And let me tell you a story about one particular class of molecules that we all know that are important, which are the polyphenols.

多酚只能通过植物、蔬菜和水果摄取，因为它们是由这些植物的次生代谢产生的。

Polyphenols are something that you only get through plants, vegetables, fruits, because they are produced by the secondary metabolism of these plants.

什么是次生代谢？

What is a secondary metabolism?

植物和动物之间有一个根本差异，这决定了它们的化学特性，那就是植物无法移动。

Well, there's a major difference between plants and animals, which really determines their chemistry, which is the fact that plants cannot run.

我们人类和所有哺乳动物的防御方式是通过体力活动、通过肌肉。

Which is the way we defend ourselves and all mammals defend themselves is by physical activity, by muscles.

植物无法移动。

Plants cannot run.

它们的防御是化学性的，也就是说，通过它们的外观、结构、状态、完整性、结构完整性等来实现。

Their defense is chemical, which means it's through their look, to their structure, to their state, to their integrity, structure integrity, and so on.

因此，植物不得不发展出一种庞大的、我们称之为次生代谢的机制，你可以把它想象成一个我们人类和所有哺乳动物都没有的庞大化学工厂，用于生产大量赋予植物颜色、味道、结构成分、硬度等的分子，因为这些是它们生存所必需的。

So the plants had to develop a massive, what we call secondary metabolism, which you could think of because a massive chemical factory that we don't have and no mammalians have to produce the many, many molecules that provide their color, their taste, their structural components, their hardness and so on, because that's what they need for survival.

而巧合的是，我们人体也需要这些化学物质。

And it happens that we need those chemicals.

我们从植物中迫切需要的一种重要化学物质是多酚。

And one big chemicals that we desperately need from plants are polyphenols.

这就是为什么我们总是被建议多吃水果和蔬菜，因为多酚对我们身体有诸多益处，但它们并不为我们提供能量。

And that's the reason why we're always being recommended to eat fruits and vegetables because polyphenols have lots of positive effects on ourselves, but they don't provide energy to us.

那么它们究竟起什么作用呢？

So what do they do?

多酚的作用类似于药物。

Well, polyphenols act like drugs.

它们是能进入血液的小分子。

They're small molecules that enter the bloodstream.

它们会被我们胃里的细菌部分分解，但许多多酚仍能以完整形态进入血液，到达细胞，与蛋白质和DNA结合，调节众多不同的细胞过程。

They're a little bit broken up by the bacteria in our stomach, but many of them actually enter intact into the bloodstream and they get to your cells and they bind to proteins and they bind to the DNA and they modulate the activity of many, many different cellular processes.

它们就是正在发挥作用的药物，对吧？

They are drugs in actions, right?

我们极度需要它们。

And we need them desperately.

没有它们，我们会患上多种疾病，甲状腺功能也会缺失。

Without them, we develop lots of diseases and we don't have thyroid.

这就是这15万种分子所起的作用。

And so this is what these 150,000 molecules do.

它们不是能量来源，但对细胞健康至关重要。

They're not energy sources, but they're essential for the health of the cell.

它们在细胞内调节着无数种不同的活动。

They're modulating many, many different activities in the cell.

因此，我们最终发展出了这样一个项目，叫做Foodom项目，也就是我身上穿的这件夹克，对吧？

And so that's how we kind of ended up now developing this world, what we call Foodom Project, which is actually the jacket that I'm wearing here, right?

Foodom项目的一个宏大愿景是：让我们彻底绘制出食物中的成分。

Is that the Foodom Project on the one end has one giant dream in it, which is let's map out what's in the food.

我感到难以置信的是，我们竟然并不确切知道这一点，对吧？

And I find it mind boggling the fact that we don't know that for sure, right?

我们不知道你吃的食物里究竟含有什么。

We don't know what's in your food.

这并不是说我们一无所知。

And this is not to say that we don't know.

我之前说过，我们的实验室已经 catalog 了135,000种分子，对吧？

We have, I said, we have 135,000 molecules that we cataloged in our lab, right?

但这些135,000种分子，我们真的不知道它们来自哪些食物。

But those 135,000, we really don't know what foods they are.

一种化学物质曾在番茄中被发现，另一种则在其他植物中被发现。

One chemical was seen in tomato, the other one was seen in another plant.

我们不知道它们是否也存在于其他植物中。

And we don't know whether it's present in other plants or not.

如果你拿任何一种食物，都无法获得其中所有化学物质的完整清单。

If you take any food item, you don't get a complete list of the chemicals within that.

考虑到如此高比例的疾病是由饮食模式引起的，我难以理解我们为何不投入资源去绘制这张图谱。

And given the fact that such a high fraction of diseases are caused by that, by the eating pattern, I find it mind boggling that we're not even investing into mapping that out.

我们需要为食物开展一个人类基因组计划。

We need a human genome project for the food.

我们做过一个食物基因组计划，对吧？

We did a Food Genome Project, right?

这并不是为了绘制基因组，因为我们已经知道许多这些食物的基因组，而是为了绘制出我们摄入的化学物质。

And this is not to actually map out the genome because we do have the genome of many of these food items, but to map out the chemicals that are in there that we end up being consuming.

因此，我实验室的一个重要任务是开发工具、技术和概念，来研究如何绘制这些物质的图谱。

So that's one of the big journey in my lab is to develop the tools and the technologies and the concepts of how do you map these things out.

我们使用质谱，研究质谱技术，开发基于人工智能的工具，以及其他多种方法，并整理文献中的数据，以构建出关于食物中化学物质的极其详尽的图景，从长远来看，这将对健康观念产生不可或缺且变革性的影响。

And we do mass spec, we work mass spec factors, we develop AI based tools and many other things and we catalogue data in the literature to create this very, very detailed picture of what are the chemicals in the food, which in the long run, it will be indispensable and I believe transformative for the way we think about health.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得这非常有道理。

And and I think that that makes a lot of sense.

当我刚开始做InsideTracker时，我总是说，好吧，我们来看看坚果，比如核桃、其他树坚果之间有什么不同。

And I remember when I started InsideTracker, I I always said, okay, let's look at, for example, at nuts and see what is different between walnut, tree nut, and any other nut.

当你只有像你所说的约150种成分时，这非常难做到，但当你拥有数以万计的成分时，你就会明白这种坚果含有这种多酚，而另一种含有那种多酚，然后或许树坚果适合我，核桃适合你。

And it's very hard to do it when you only have, as you said, like 150 ingredient, but when you will have the tens of thousands of them, suddenly you will know this one have this polyphenol when the other one have that, and then maybe tree nuts is good for me and walnuts is good for you.

但现在，当我们只有150块乐高积木，而不是20000块时，我们仍然处于盲区，很难理解为什么这种食物对你好，却对我不好。

But right now, when we have only, let's say, 150 Lego block instead out of the 20,000 Lego block, it's we are still blind, it's very hard for us to understand why this food is good for you and not good for me.

我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为第一个真正让我困惑的是，为什么我们作为人类不去查明这些食物里究竟含有哪些化学物质。

And I'm glad you raised that question because the first question really which I'm I'm really puzzled that we are not doing it as humanities to find out what are the chemicals there.

对吧？

Right?

我认为这条路是存在的，但我们只是需要对这个问题投入更大的资源才能实现。

And I think there's a path towards, but we just need a bigger investment into that problem to do that.

但第二个问题是，这些化学物质各自会产生什么影响？

But the second question, what would these chemicals do one by one?

比如，假设我给你一份核桃和其他坚果的完整化学成分清单，对吧？

Because so let's say that I do give you the full list of walnut and some other nuts, right?

为什么这些差异很重要？

Why does the different matters?

这正是我们实验室正在进行的第二个探索。

And that's the second journey we do in my lab.

我们基于网络医学开发了一整套工具，用于识别当某种分子进入你的血液后，它能与哪些蛋白质结合，以及其潜在的健康影响。

We developed a whole set of tools based on network medicine to identify once that molecule gets into your bloodstream, what proteins can it bound to and then what is its potential health effect.

因此，网络医学的工具非常适合解决这个问题。

And so the tools of network medicines are ideal for that.

这就是我所说的第二次登月计划。

And that's what I would call the second moonshot.

第一次是绘制出食物中的所有化学物质图谱，这可能需要数千亿美元的投资才能完成，但这是可行的。

The first would be to map out the chemicals in the food, which would require probably hundreds of billions of dollars investment to do it right, but it's possible to do.

但第二次是，一旦你有了这份清单，并且对每种物质已有足够好的数据，就能识别出它们各自的潜在健康影响。

But the second one is once you have that list and you already have a good enough list for each of them to identify what are its potential health effects.

这两项都是我们人类迟早必须投入的登月计划。

And these are two different moonshots that we sooner or later have to invest in as humanity.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

我认为其中一个良好的成果是我们可以发现许多药物候选物质，然后提纯它们制成药片，从而获得更丰富的药物种类。

And I think that one good outcome from that is we can find a lot of drug candidate that we can then purify it and use it as a pill, and then have a more variety of drug.

我们都清楚，目前的药物研发管线已经开始枯竭，因为所有化学实验都已走到这一步。

All of us know that right now the pipeline started to dry because from all the chemical experiments, that's where we are.

但事实上，自然界产生的物质，往往都有其存在的原因。

But actually, usually what nature make, there is a reason that nature make it.

因此，它更有可能有效。

So there is a better chance that it will work.

很高兴你提到这一点，因为当你观察当前我们所拥有的药物库时，大约有六到七千种药物正在被人类使用，其中约三分之一是食物分子，比如维生素C，对吧？

I'm glad you raised that because actually when you look at the current drug pool that we have, which is about six to 7,000 drugs that are kind of in human use right now, about one third of them are food molecules, like vitamin C, right?

是的。

Yes.

因为早期发现治疗性物质的方法，其实就是寻找那些已经存在于食物中的成分。

Because the early discovery phase for finding actually therapeutic agents was really to find things that were already in the food.

但这样的物质其实非常多。

But there are really many.

而另外三分之一，我估计是经过化学修饰或原子层面改造的食物分子，以增强它们的结合能力。

And the other third I would guesstimate would be food molecules that have been chemically modified or atomic level modified to make them stronger binders.

但我完全同意你的观点。

But I'm totally there with you.

我认为在我的实验室里，我们有135,000种分子，而且可能还有更多，对吧？

I think that we have here in my lab, 135,000 molecules and probably there are many more, right?

它们具有一些有趣的特性。

That have some interesting features.

首先，它们对我们来说是安全的，因为它们本来就存在于食物中，对吧？

First of all, they are safe for us to consume because they're already in the food, right?

是的。

Yes.

其中许多已经与我们共同进化了。

Many of them have already co evolved with us.

我们与它们共同进化了。

We co evolved with them.

因此，它们对健康有一定的影响。

So they have some kind of health impact.

它们调节细胞的活性，因此可能成为潜在的药物。

They modulate the activity of the cell and so they could really be potential drugs.

一旦我们识别出它们，我们不仅找到了有效的分子，还找到了其作用机制，对吧？

And once we identify them, we're not only finding a molecule that works, but we're also finding a mechanism of action, right?

一旦我们掌握了这种作用机制，就可以改造这些分子，使它们成为更强的结合剂，例如提高其效率，从而真正转化为我们所认为的药物。

And then once we had that mechanism of action, we can modify these molecules and make them more potent binders, for example, to increases their efficiency and can be turned into something that we really kind of see as a drug as well.

因此，我认为食物是我们开发新药物和新疗法的金矿。

So I think food is a gold mine for us to really start looking at kind of developing new drugs and new therapies for humans.

是的。

Yeah.

如果任何从事政策制定的人、政策制定者，或制药行业的任何人听了我们的对话，也许你们应该改变想法，开始关注这一点，并可能与拉斯劳团队合作开展这个项目，在我看来，这非常令人兴奋。

And if anyone from that they're working on policy or a policymaker or anyone from the pharmaceutical industry that listen to us, yeah, maybe you should change your mind and start looking into that and maybe working with last law on the on this project, which, in my opinion, is really exciting.

你们的研究还发现了一个问题，那就是超加工食品对我们不好的原因是什么？

Another thing that your work found is what is the reason that ultra processed food are not good for us?

你能详细解释一下吗？

So can you elaborate on that?

当然。

Absolutely.

所以我们谈到了食物中的成分、食物里的化学物质，以及它们各自的效应，但我们还没谈到数量，对吧？

So we talked about what's in the food, what are the chemicals in the food, and of course, what are their individual effect, but we haven't talked about how much, all right?

食物中含有多少种这些化学物质？

How many of these chemicals are in the food?

当我们真正开始探索每种多酚或已记录的营养成分的含量时，我们意识到，首先，不同化学物质的含量差异大约有九个数量级。

So when we actually started to explore how much of each of these polyphenols or even each of the nutritional components that are bread catalogued, we realize that first of all, when it comes to the quantities of the different chemicals, there are about nine orders of magnitude variations.

我这是什么意思？

What do I mean by that?

维生素K通常每100克食物中只有大约10的负六次方克，对吧？

Vitamin K typically comes like 10 to the minus six grams per a 100 gram food, right?

水大约是每100克食物中含有70克。

Water is about 70 grams per a 100 gram food.

这已经相差了八个数量级。

So that is already an eight order of magnitude difference.

当你查看所有营养成分时，它们在食物中的含量差异达到多个数量级。

And when you look at all the nutritional components, there are orders of magnitude difference of how much you find in your food.

但非常有趣的是，当你观察所有含有维生素K的植物，或任何类型的食物时，它们所含的量却非常集中。

But what is very interesting is that when you look at all the different plants that have vitamin K or all the different, any type of food, how much they have is very narrowly defined.

它们的含量都集中在大约10的负六次方克附近。

It's all in the vicinity of minus 10 to the minus six grams.

你不会找到任何一种食物能提供两克维生素K，对吧？

You will not find any food that would give you two grams of vitamin K, right?

其中一个原因是，我们已经在《自然·食品》上发表过：植物或动物产生的任何化学物质的量，实际上是由该生物的代谢网络决定的。

And one of the reason, and we kind of published that in Nature Food is that because at the end, how much of any chemical being produced by a plant or by an animal is really determined by the metabolic network of that organism.

这个代谢网络有主干道，也有小路。

And that has highways and has small roads.

如果某种化学物质是通过小路产生的，那它的产量就永远不会很高，因为这条路本身就很窄，对吧？

And if the chemical is produced by a small road, it will never be a lot because it's a small road, right?

而如果是像ATP这样的主干道，那它的产量就会很高，因为我们需要大量ATP，它的生产速率确实非常高。

And if it's a highway like ATP, then it's gonna be a lot of it because we need a lot of it and it's really exist on this very high production rate.

然而，有趣的是，这些化学物质的浓度在植物之间是固定的，且不同植物之间的差异非常小。

So what's interesting, however, is that the chemical concentrations are fixed across plants and they vary very little from one plant to the other one.

我相信，我们已经与这种状态共同进化了，对吧？

And I believe that we have co evolved to process this, right?

也就是说，这些浓度对我们来说是自然存在的。

That is to kind of have that concentrations coming naturally for us.

那么，我们的食物生产发生了什么变化？

Now, what happens with our food production?

我们学会了通过化学手段改变食物。

Well, we have learned to chemically alter our food.

通常，化学改变意味着加工食物会提高其能量密度，并改变食物的化学成分浓度。

Typically, chemically altering means that processing food implies that we are increasing the energy density and we are shifting the chemical concentration of the food.

我们现在的糖分含量比以往多得多，对吧？

We have much more sugar than we normally have, right?

我们现在的卡路里含量也比以前多得多。

We have many more calories than we had before.

我们可以谈谈这背后的原因和来源。

And we can talk about why and where this came from.

这一切都发生在我波士顿郊外的社区里，对吧？

It's all stuck here in my neighborhood outside of Boston, right?

但从根本上说，加工意味着我们改变了食物中化学物质的浓度。

But fundamentally, processing means that we are chemically altering the concentration of the chemicals in the food.

那为什么这会是个问题呢？

Now, why is that a problem?

因为如果我给你十个氢原子和一个氧原子，让你做出大量的水，你会说：我只能做出一个水分子，对吧？

Because if I'm gonna give you 10 hydrogens and one oxygen and I say, go ahead and make me lots of water, you would say, well, I can make only one water molecule, right?

因为我只有一个氧原子。

Because I have only one oxygen.

那剩下的氢原子会怎么样？

And what's gonna happen with the rest of the hydrogen?

它们必须找到其他去处。

It's gonna have to develop somewhere.

所以，在我看来，这就是我们食用超加工食品时所发生的情况。

So this is what, in my view, what happens when we eat ultra processed food.

当化学成分与我们进化过程中所适应的化学成分不匹配时，某些化学物质就会积累。

When the chemical composition does not match with the chemical composition that we were evolutionary developed with, then some chemicals have deposit.

对吧？

Right?

那么，我们来谈谈什么是超加工食品。

So ultra processing is Let's talk about what is ultra processing.

比如天然食品，像一个苹果，对吧？

So there is natural food, an apple, right?

一种蔬菜，你根本没有碰过它。

A vegetable, which you didn't touch.

加工是指你通常在厨房里能做的任何事情，比如切碎、冷冻、加热、烹饪等等。

There is processing, which is anything that you can do in your kitchen typically, cutting, freezing, warming, cooking and things like that.

超加工则需要工厂参与，本质上是化学处理，提取某些成分，再注入其他化学物质，目的是延长保质期，从而降低成本，对吧？

Ultra processing is you need a factory for, which is kind of chemically processing, really extracting certain chemicals, infusing other chemicals in there for the purpose of giving it longer shelf time, which reduces the price, right?

而且提高了能量密度，对吧？

And increasing the energy density, right?

所以这些还涉及可口性、味道等等。

So these are, and of course, palatability and the taste and so on.

因此，我们偏爱加工食品有很多原因。

So there's lots of reasons why we root our processed food.

在这个过程中，我们改变了这些食品的化学成分。

And in that process, we shift the chemical profile of these.

这些不平衡的加工会带来什么后果？

And what happens with those unbalanced processes?

正如我所说，我们体内有高速公路和小径，只能以特定比例摄入物质，如果比例不对，就会出现问题。

Well, as I said, we have highways and we have small roots in ourselves, and we can only consume things at those ratios and we get it in the wrong ratio, things get developed.

在过去的几年里，我们一直在大量研究超加工食品。

Fundamentally, we have been in the last few years doing lots of work on neutral processed food.

一是要理解它们的根本差异。

One is to understand the fundamentals of how they are different.

第二是，我们如何判断某种食物是否属于超加工食品？

And second is how do we tell when something is ultra processed?

因为包装上没有任何标签标明这是超加工食品，那是纯加工食品。

Because there's no label anywhere on the box to say this is ultra processed and this is purely processed.

因此，我们实际上开发了一种人工智能工具，它会分析法律要求必须公开的信息，通常是法定必须披露的营养成分。

And so we developed actually an AI tool that looks at what legally you must actually share, which is typically the nutritional components by law you have to share.

通过这些数据，它能检测出与正常情况的化学差异，并告诉你你的加工过程有多好。

And from that, it detects the chemical variations when there are deviations from the normal and will tell you how good your process is.

我们最初是出于好奇将其作为研究项目开展的，但后来我们不仅在超过五万种美国市场水果的庞大食品数据库中运行了它，还将其扩展到Whole Foods、Target和Walmart的数据库中。

And we did it as a research project because we were curious about it, but then we ended up running this one through not only through a massive food database, which more than 50,000 fruits in The US market, but we also developed it to kind of run through Whole Foods and Target and Walmart databases.

在我们于《自然·食品》期刊发表研究成果后，我们上线了一个网站——truefood.tech（抱歉，是truefood.tech），允许任何人查询在Whole Foods购物时，他们想买的食物有多超加工。

And after we published it also in Nature Food, the data itself, we ended up putting out a website, which is truefood.tech, I'm sorry, truefood.tech, that we allow any people to look up if they go to Whole Foods, how ultra processed is what they wanna buy.

我们原本以为这只是一个研究数据库。

And we thought this is the research database.

当我们看到每天有一到三百万人访问这个数据库，查看并决定在Whole Foods或Walmart购买什么时，我们感到非常震惊，并且至今仍持续感到震惊。

We were super shocked and continued to be shocked when we see one to 3,000,000 people a day coming to that database and checking out and making decisions of what to buy in Whole Foods or in Walmart.

所以我们意识到，我们实际上触及到了人们渴望但无法获取的知识库。

So what we are realizing is that we really tapped into a knowledge base that people seek, but they don't have access to.

人们对超加工食品对我们有害的认识正在日益增加。

And there's increasing awareness of how ultra processed food is bad for us.

我们知道，超加工食品摄入量每增加10%，患癌症、糖尿病甚至神经退行性疾病的风险就会增加5%到10%。

We know a 10% increase in ultra processed food consumption increases with about five to ten percent your cancer rate, diabetes rate, even neurodegenerative diseases and so on.

但我们并没有为个人提供足够的资源，帮助他们真正区分超加工食品和非超加工食品。

And we don't provide the resources to individuals to really distinguish ultra processed foods from non ultra processed food.

我们发布的truefood.tech数据库，显然是朝这个方向迈出的第一步。

And the truefood.tech database that we put out apparently is a first step in that direction.

是的，非常有趣。

Yeah, very interesting.

你知道超加工食品为什么会增加癌症风险或其他不良影响吗？还是我们目前还不清楚？

And do you know why the ultra processed food increased the cancer rate or other bad effect or we don't know yet?

我们还不知道。

We don't know that.

我认为这对我们来说将是一段漫长的旅程。

And I think it would be a long journey for us.

坦白说，超加工食品成为核心问题的原因，要归功于巴西的一个团队，大约十五年前，他们开始根据生产方式手动区分超加工食品和非超加工食品。

With all honesty, the reason why ultra processed food became such a central issue is thanks to Brazilian group, who about fifteen years ago started to kind of distinguish also like manually classify foods that are ultra processed from non ultra processed food based on the production method.

他们首次让人们意识到超加工的概念，从而使其他人能够利用这些数据开展流行病学研究，证实我刚才提到的结果：如果你增加超加工食品的摄入量，各种疾病的风险都会上升，这是第一点。

And they provided first awareness of ultra processing, so then other people can now use that data to do epidemiological studies and show these results that I mentioned to you, that if you increase your ultra processed food consumption, then all the chances for diseases goes up, number one.

此外，他们提供的数据还为我们训练AI工具奠定了基础，因为他们的数据库仅涵盖几千种食品。

And then it also provided us the training data based on which we could now develop these AI tools to really recognize the, because they only have that database for a few thousand foods.

通过AI工具，我们现在能够将这一能力推广到任何种类的食品上。

And with the AI tool, we're now able to generalize to any kind of food.

因此，我们可以判断任何一种食品的超加工程度。

So we can tell about any food, how ultra processed it.

让我明确说明一下。

And let me just be very clear.

有很多我们天然食用且对健康有益的食品，本质上也是超加工的，比如蛋黄派，对吧？

There are lots of foods that are we naturally eat and good for us are inherently ultra processed, like yolk huts, right?

因为那是发酵过程。

Because that's a fermentation process.

所以问题不在于超加工食品是否对你有益。

So the question is not necessarily whether ultra process is good for you or not.

对吧？

Right?

有些是好的。

Some are good.

问题是，在同一类别中，哪种更超加工？

The question is what is more ultra process within the same category?

你不应该把蛋黄派和肉类进行比较。

You should not kind of compare yolk hordes with meats.

对吧？

Right?

也不该把肉类和饼干比较，因为它们属于不同类别。

And meats with cookies because those are in different categories.

因此，例如在 truefood.tech 中，我们并不一定提供具体的超加工评分，因为单凭这个数值本身并无意义。

And for that reason, for example, in truefood.tech, we don't necessarily provide the actual ultra processing score because by itself that is not meaningful.

有意义的是，在你的类别中，与其他同类产品相比，你是更超加工还是更少超加工？

What is meaningful that within your category, are you more or less ultra processed than other products within that category?

当涉及到发酵食品时，我们的算法总是会告诉你，这些食品确实经历了一定程度的加工，因为事实如此。

And because when it comes to fermented food, our algorithm always tells you that there is some degree of processing happening on them because it is.

你在对它进行发酵。

You're fermenting it.

对吧？

Right?

但是，是的。

But Yeah.

是在更多或更少地进行人为干预。

Manipulating more or less.

你是更接近天然状态，还是已经严重偏离了自然？

Are you closer to natural or very, very deviant?

我们以鱼类为例。

Let's look at fish, for example.

比如，你有寿司、放在平底锅上煎的鱼，以及鱼排汉堡。

So you have, let's say, sushi versus a fish that you put on the pan versus a fish burger.

所以你的意思是，寿司比煎鱼好，煎鱼又比鱼排汉堡好。

So basically, what you are saying, sushi is better than fish on the pan and fish on the pan is better than the fish burger.

对吗？

Correct?

不，我的意思是它们对你来说都同样健康，对吧？

No, I'm saying they're all equally good for you, right?

因为这些都是你可以自己做的加工方式。

Because those are all processing that you can do of your own.

所以加工本身完全没问题。

So there's no problem whatsoever with process.

记住，我们把加工定义为你能在自己厨房里完成的事情，对吧？

Remember, we define processing as something that you can do within your kitchen, right?

好的。

Okay.

你可以在家里做寿司，因为寿司是什么？

You can do the sushi in your kitchen, because what is sushi?

它是生鱼片切成极薄的片，配上米饭和蔬菜，对吧？

It's raw feed that is baked sliced into very thin slices and added to rice and vegetables, right?

是的。

Yeah.

或者只是生鱼本身，对吧？

So, or just raw fish by itself, right?

这本身并不是加工。

And that itself is not processing.

抱歉，这算是加工，但不是超加工。

I'm sorry, that itself is processing, but not ultra processing.

超加工是只能在工厂里进行的。

Ultra processing is something that you can do in factories only.

我给你

Me give you

当

an When

当你在超市购买橙汁时，包装上可能有醒目的大字写着‘有机’，但它通常是超加工食品。

you buy orange juice in the supermarket, it may have big letters on it in orange saying organic, but it's typically ultra processed.

为什么呢？

Why is that?

因为橙子来自不同市场，成熟度和含糖量各不相同。

Because orange is being connected across different markets at different level of ripening and different sugar contents.

所以，橙汁会被立即在当地榨汁，然后化学分离成果汁、酸和纯水，对吧？

So what happens with the euro is that it's immediately squeezed out locally and then it's chemically split into the gulp and into the acids and into the just pure water, right?

接着，这三种成分会被运输到需要橙汁的本地市场，再重新混合。

And then it's being transported as three different ingredients to the local market where you need orange juice and then being remixed.

当你进行这种重新混合时，就失去了橙汁原有的味道和外观。

When you do that remixing, don't have taste and the look of an orange juice.

所以你会开始添加糖、色素和其他化学物质，试图重新还原橙汁的口感，即使你已经有了基本成分，对吧？

So you start adding sugar, you start adding color and you start adding other chemicals to kind of recreate the filling of the orange juice, even though you have the basic elements, right?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，你在超市购买的橙汁就成了超加工食品。

And so that makes orange juice, what you buy in the supermarket, ultra processed food.

而你在家榨的橙汁只是普通加工食品。

What you squeeze at home is just processed.

这完全没问题。

There is absolutely no problem.

至少我们完全没有看到任何证据表明，普通加工食品会对健康产生不利影响。

At least we don't see any evidence whatsoever, health wise, of processed food having adversary health effects.

真正造成这种影响的，据我们目前所知，是超加工过程——化学分离与重新组合，以及添加大量新分子等。

It is ultra processing, the chemical separation and the recombination, the addition of the many new molecules and so on, that seems to be largely responsible for the effect based on our current knowledge.

我想强调的是，我们对超加工食品及其健康影响的理解还非常新。

And I want to emphasize our understanding of ultra processed food and its health effects is very new.

我想说的是过去五年，对吧？

I would say the last five years, right?

所以这是一个非常动态的议题，特别是我们通常不理解其作用机制，但流行病学证据越来越清楚地表明它们对健康有负面影响。

So it's a very moving subject and in particular we typically do not understand the mechanisms of action, but the epidemiological evidence is increasingly clear that they have negative health effects.

好的。

Okay.

所以我很高兴问了这个问题，因为很难区分超加工食品和非超加工食品，而使用你们的网站可以帮助购物者清楚地了解什么是超加工食品，什么不是。

So I'm happy that I asked this question because it's not easy to distinguish between ultra process and not ultra process, and using your website can help basically the shopper to understand exactly what is and what is not.

这么说公平吗？

That's fair to say?

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

太好了。

Excellent.

所以我原本计划问更多问题，但我们已经到了一小时了。

So I was planning to ask many more questions, but we are already in the one hour mark.

所以我想进入下一个环节，我会提一个快速的问题，希望你能尽可能简短地回答。

So I would like to move to a section that basically I'm asking a quick question, and I would like to receive from you, if possible, a quick answer as much as possible.

第一个问题是关于你在日常生活中每天都用到的一个网络概念。

And the first one is about one network concept you use every day in your own life.

中心节点。

Hubs.

这是我们1999年的重要发现：大多数网络都会自然形成中心节点，即那些高度连接的网页、拥有大量联系人的人等等。

This is the big discovery we made in '99 that most networks develop naturally hubs, very highly connected web pages, people with lots of connections and so on.

我们学到的一点是，一旦这些中心节点存在，它们就从根本上决定了系统完成任务的能力。

And one thing we learn is that once they are present, they fundamentally determine the system's ability to get things done.

在社交网络中，正是这些中心节点在推动世界运转，对吧？

In social networks, it's the hubs that rotate the earth, right?

正是这些事物推动了事情的发生。

Those are the things that make things happen.

你希望与核心人物成为朋友等等。

You want to be friends with hubs and so on.

因此，我总是留意去识别我所关注的特定系统中的核心人物——无论是艺术、饮食还是科学，谁是核心人物，我该如何与他们建立联系？

So I always look out to identify in the particular system I care about, whether that's art, whether that's food, whether it's science, who are the hubs and how can I engage with them?

很有趣。

Interesting.

非常有趣的回答。

Very interesting answer.

关于饮食，有没有一种饮食习惯能反映出强大的营养网络？

And the question about food, a food or dietary habit that you should reflect a strong nutrient network?

植物。

Plants.

植物和蔬菜。

Plants and vegetables.

对吧？

Right?

我们一遍又一遍地被告诉，必须多吃植物和蔬菜，而大多数人认为这是因为有助于减肥。

We've been told over and over that we have to eat lots of plants and vegetables and most people think that that's because how we lose weight.

不对。

No.

这跟减肥一点关系都没有。

It has nothing to do with that.

对吧？

Right?

这是因为植物和蔬菜含有大量我们只能从它们那里获取的化学物质，而我们的细胞迫切需要这些物质来正常运作。

It has to do with the fact that plants and vegetables have lots of chemicals that we can only get from them and our cells desperate to get them to function.

它们帮助我们清除细胞中的大量自由基，并每天调节细胞活动。

And they help us kind of clean many free radicals from the cells and they modulate on a daily basis a cellular activity.

因此，我的饮食中每天至少有一道菜是沙拉，以确保摄入足够的蔬菜和水果。

For that reason, now my diet is always one dish a day is always a salad to get my load and also of kind of vegetables and fruits.

好的。

Okay.

这不错。

That's a good one.

你认为哪种行为或习惯对长寿来说被低估了？

One behavior or habits you believe is underappreciated for longevity.

散步。

Walking.

目前，我们唯一已知能延长寿命的干预方式就是锻炼。

Well, right now, the single intervention that we have for increasing longevity is really exercise.

没有任何其他方法能与之相比。

We have nothing comparable to that.

而在其中，散步却常常被忽视，因为我们越来越发现，过度激烈的运动其实并不是延长寿命的有效手段。

And within that, walking is very underappreciated because more and more we see that very excessive sports are not really a tool for longevity.

相反，它们可能会缩短寿命，对吧？

To the contrary, they short their life, Right?

但步行是一种低强度、可持续的运动，与长寿的关联性最强。

But walking is one of those kind of exercises that give you low intensity, durable exercise that seems to be most correlated with longevity.

我希望更多生活忙碌的人能调整生活方式，多走路。

And I wish more people with their busy lifestyle, can set their life in the way to actually walk a lot.

正因为如此，我住得离工作地点一小时路程，每天步行上下班。

For that reason, I'm actually living one hour away from my workplace, and I walk there, and I walk back every day.

太棒了。

Very cool.

几期之前，我采访了一位科学家，他研究了我们久坐的生活方式，因为现在大多数人整天都坐在桌子和电脑旁，大约从九点到五点。

And a few episodes ago, I interviewed a scientist that basically look at our sedentary life because now most of us sitting next to the table and next to the computer for, let's say, nine to five.

他建议即使要打破这种状态，每五十分钟就站起来活动十分钟，然后再回来，因为我们身体并不是为整天坐着而设计的。

And what he recommended is even break that, and every fifty minutes, go for work for ten minutes and then come again because we haven't been designed to sit all the day.

我们的身体是为活动而设计的。

We were designed to move.

我有一个原则。

And I have one rule.

每次Zoom会议，我都会边走边开。

Every single Zoom meeting, I take walking.

当然，这次我们必须录音，所以我没法走。

Of course, this one we had to record, so I couldn't.

但如果你想和我进行半小时的对话，那会在我去办公室或回家的路上进行。

But if you wanna have a half an hour conversation with me, it will be during my walk to the office or back.

太棒了。

Excellent.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢你分享这些。

So thank you for that.

最后一个问题，你如何恢复精力或重置你的网络韧性？

And the last question is, what do you do to recharge or reset your network resilience?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

以上所有，包括吃蔬菜和散步，但你也必须有热情。

All of the above, vegetables and walking, but you also have to have a passion.

当然，我对科学和发现充满热情，同时我也对艺术有着深厚的热爱。

And of course, I have the passion for science and discovery, but I also have a deep passion for art.

所以，例如，每个月我都会离开实验室六周，去布达佩斯的一间艺术工作室工作，完全不碰科学。

So for example, every month I disappear for six weeks from my lab and I go to Budapest and I work in an art studio and not touch science.

然后相信我，到了十二月，我会无比渴望回到实验室，去解决衰老的问题。

And then trust me, at the December, I am so eager to come back to solve the problem of aging.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我同意。

I I I agree.

我知道对我来说，虽然我没有离开六周，但当我出去骑车，花一两个小时清理思绪时，回来后我的大脑会非常清醒，能够真正集中注意力。

I I I know that for me is that I'm not taking six weeks, but I'm going when I'm going cycling outside and cleaning my brain for an hour or two, I'm coming back, and my brain is so fresh that I can really focus.

但当你整天坐着不动时，你的大脑就会被各种信息堵塞。

But when you sit all the day, your brain started to be clotted with all the information.

所以我认为这是一个非常好的建议。

So I think that that's a great suggestion.

我最后一个问题是，如果我们的听众只能记住你工作中的一个理念，那应该是什么？

And the last question that I have for you is if our listener remember just one idea from your work, what should it be?

关联性。

Connectedness.

没有任何事情是孤立发生的。

Nothing happens in isolation.

我们生活在网络之中。

We live in networks.

我们的生物存在是由我们之间的网络所驱动的。

Our biological existence is driven by the networks between ourselves.

我们的社会经济存在也是由我们所参与的网络所驱动的。

Social economic existence is driven by the networks we are part of.

我们通常会想到人、分子，却忽略了关系。

We tend to think about people, molecules, of thinking about relationships.

但生命的成功与健康其实全在于关系，所以要从网络的角度思考。

But really the success of life and health is all about relationships, so think network.

是的，你关于枢纽的观点非常有趣。

Yeah, and your point about the hub is a very interesting one.

一定要找到枢纽，并努力与枢纽成为朋友，因为如果你能与枢纽成为朋友，你迟早也会成为枢纽。

Always try to find the hub, and always try to strive to be a friend with the hub, because if you'll be this a friend with the hub, you will be you'll become the hub later on.

所以要志存高远，你终将抵达高峰。

So strive to the moon, and you will be in the moon.

我真的很喜欢这一点。

So I really like that.

非常感谢你加入我们，分享了伊甸网络如何从我们的社交到饮食塑造了我们的健康与长寿。

And thank you so much for joining us and sharing how Eden Network from our sales to our food shape our health and longevity.

想了解更多听众可以访问 barabassilab.com，关注他在东北大学的研究。

For listener who want to learn more, explore his work at barabassilab.com, and follow his research at Northeastern University.

对于观众来说，如果你喜欢今天这一期《由设计塑造的持久性》节目，请在苹果播客、Spotify 和 YouTube 上点赞并关注这个播客。

And for the audience, if you enjoyed today's episode of Roturity by Design, please like and follow the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and YouTube.

留下评分和评论。

Leave a rating and review.

这将帮助更多人发现关于科学、健康与长寿的这场对话。

It's helped out there to discover this conversation about science, health, and longevity.

再次感谢您收听由 InsideTracker 制作的《由设计塑造的长寿》。

Thank you again for tuning into longevity by design produced by InsideTracker.

我们下期再见。

We'll see you next time.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

感谢您收听《由设计塑造的长寿》。

Thanks for listening to longevity by design.

请在苹果、Spotify 或 YouTube 上订阅本播客。

Please subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube.

《长寿由设计》由InsideTracker提供支持，这是一家个性化健康优化平台，通过基于科学依据的营养、补充剂和生活方式建议，帮助人们从内而外改善身体，从而提升生活质量。

Longevity by Design is powered by InsideTracker, a personalized health optimization platform that helps people improve their lives by improving their bodies from the inside out using personalized, sides backed recommendations for nutrition, supplements, and lifestyle changes.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 insidetracker.com/podcast。

To learn more, visit insidetracker.com/podcast.