经济学领域的女性：进展、挑战与前景

我的目标是成为《金融时报》的驻外记者。

My goal was to be a Financial Times foreign correspondent.

那个目标没实现，但我还有另一个目标。

Failed at that one, but had another one.

你最初选择的职业道路并不一定是你最终从事的。

The career path that you start out on isn't always necessarily the one that you end up doing.

克莱尔，你在参加A-level考试时，就立志要成为英格兰银行的副行长吗？

Claire, did you aspire to be the Deputy Governor of the Bank of England when you do your A level?

不，我完全没想过，我也是这么认为的。

No, I've got no, that's what I thought.

说过，最终会从事这个。

Said, going to end up doing.

但实际上我根本不知道还有这样的工作。

But I actually didn't understand that there were jobs like this at all.

我的意思是，知道一些，但我不太了解那些专业人士，我以为职业就是医生或律师这类专业工作。

I mean, know, sort of but I didn't really know many kind of professional people but I thought you were a doctor or a lawyer or and that there's just sort of professional jobs.

我认为有几个问题需要指出，我同意学术界的障碍更多，但各行各业都存在障碍，我不想对此掉以轻心。

I think I so I think there's a few things and I take the point that I think there are more barriers in academia but there are barriers everywhere and I don't want to sort of be complacent about that.

我觉得那种'管道论'——认为问题最终会自行解决——非常危险，因为现实情况是，学习经济学的女性人数仍然极其稀少。

I think it's really dangerous to make the sort of pipeline argument that it'll just come through in the end because actually as we're seeing, it's not the numbers of women studying economics is still really, really low.

实际上情况比STEM学科更糟，而且毫无改善迹象。

And actually worse than STEM subjects, it's not improving.

相比之下，学习数学的女性人数正在增长。

So the number of women studying maths is increasing.

学习工程学、计算机科学的人数都在增加。

Studying engineering, computer science, those are all increasing.

而学习经济学的人数比例却没有增长。

The proportion that are studying economics is not.

我认为这非常、非常令人担忧。

And I think that is really, really worrying.

我觉得部分原因在于经济学的形象问题，很多人一听到这个词就失去兴趣，要么觉得它很无聊，要么对它产生了错误的印象。

I think part of that is about the image of economics, which just I think a lot people switch off when they hear the term or they think it's quite boring or they picture something that it isn't.

所以，你知道，我经常说，如果你问人们想到经济学家时会想到什么，他们通常会想到一个中年男性在谈论股市之类的事情。

So, you know, I often say if you ask people what they think of when they think of an economist, they generally think of a man, sort of middle aged man talking about the stock market, that kind of thing.

这实际上完全不是经济学的内容。

That's not at all what economics is about actually.

但我认为我们真的很难让输入的人们理解这一点。

But I think we really struggle to get that across to input people.

而且，你知道，当你17、18、19、20岁时，你在思考人生方向，就像你说的，你不一定会觉得经济学像它实际那样有趣。

And, know, when you're 17, 18, 19, 20, 20, you know, you're thinking about what you wanna do with your life, like you say, and you don't necessarily think economics is as interesting as it turns out to be.

所以我认为存在某种形象问题。

So I think there's a sort of image problem.

这绝对是个问题：看，女性要生孩子，对吧？

There's definitely this thing about, look, women have children, right?

这意味着她们会在职业生涯相当重要的阶段暂停工作，而且有大量证据表明这通常是人们职业发展的关键时期。

And that means they take time out of their career at quite an important point and there's lots of evidence that shows that's a point in which people generally are progressing.

不过，这在所有职业中都是普遍现象。

Now, that is true across all professions though.

所以，你知道，经济学领域确实存在一些特殊现象。

So, you know, there's something special going on in economics.

榜样效应绝对是个重要因素，对吧？

There's definitely something about role models, right?

这种'看不见就无法成为'的普遍观念。

This whole if you can't see it, you can't be it thing.

我们确实面临这个问题，而且顺便说一句，这在所有多样性群体中都存在，你知道的，榜样代表性不足的情况依然普遍。

And we have that, and by the way, it's across all sort of diversity groups, you know, it's still the case that the role models are not as prevalent.

因此我认为这是一系列因素造成的，这也正是为什么像阿尔马登说的那样，我们必须全面审视所有可能的解决途径——无论是解决人才流失问题，还是公共部门做了大量工作确保女性在求职时能完整走完所有选拔流程这类事项。

So I think there are a set of things and that's why it's really important, as Almaden says, we look at all of the ways in which we can really challenge this, whether it's the leaky pipeline, done loads of work in the public sector about how do you make sure women, you know, when they apply for a job, they might get all the way through to the end of the stages, all those sorts of things.

但确实存在一系列我认为构成实质性障碍的因素。

But there's definitely a set of things that I think are barriers, are real barriers.

要坚持走完整个职业发展历程。

To keep on going through the whole career process.

是的，我

Yes, I

完全同意。

totally agree.

所以我举了几个例子。

So I presented a couple of examples.

比如欧洲央行，当他们围绕晋升引入许多措施时，意识到女性没有申请且未能获得晋升。

Example of the ECB, the European Central Bank, when they introduced a lot of measures around promotion, being aware that women were not applying and they were not getting the promotion.

所以所有这些措施确实会带来改变。

So all these things do change things.

我认为这是我们应该牢记的事情。

So I think that that's something that we should keep in mind.

我还分析了ATHENA S1项目，我们看到在获得雅典娜天鹅认证后，女性代表比例有所提升，同时性别薪酬差距缩小，薪酬透明度提高。

I also analyzed the ATHENA S1 and what we see is that there is an increase in representation after Athena Swan recognition as well as closing of the gender gap, pay transparency.

当然，所有这些措施更广泛地适用于女性群体，而不仅限于经济学领域的女性。

So all these things of course apply to women more generally, not just women in economics.

我想对我来说，这也是这个行业仍在探索的问题：究竟是什么让经济学学术界的女性面临特殊处境，其他领域的女性经济学家也同样如此。

I guess for me, and this is something that the profession is still sort of figuring out, what is it particularly about women in economics academia, but also its economics somewhere else.

正如你所说，珍妮特提到，在金融领域，这完全是男性主导的，对吧？

Because as you said, Janet said, in finance, I mean, it's totally male dominated, right?

当一个职业由男性高度主导时，我认为我们需要的就是我们现在讨论的这些措施。

And when you have a very male dominated profession, I think what is needed is the sort of things that we're talking about here.

你需要榜样，需要更强大的关系网络，需要支持网络来突破现状，达到那个临界点，让改变开始发生。

You need role models, you need a stronger networks, you need support networks to sort of that to break that, to get to that threshold where things start changing.

这就是我的看法。

That's what I think.

好的，很好。

Okay, good.

我们一直在提到同行和榜样，当然RBS网络也开展了导师计划等项目。

We've been mentioning peers and role models and the RBS network of course does mentoring programmes and so on as well.

所以我的下一个问题可能有两部分，第一部分是：你职业生涯中收到过的最佳建议是什么？

So the next question I've got is, it could be a two parter, the first part is what's the best advice that you've had in your career?

如果你想顺便回答一个关于最糟糕建议的问题，也可以。

If you want to also answer one about your worst advice as well, you can if you want.

这是我擅自对问题做了些发挥。

That was me taking taking liberty with the questions.

克莱尔？

Claire?

好的。

Yeah.

我先留个悬念不说最糟的建议。

I'll leave a moment for worst advice.

最好的建议嘛，我想想，大概有几条。

The best advice is kind of, I don't know, couple of things.

其一是要从事你感兴趣的工作，对吧？

One is work on, do what interests you, right?

因为这样你会更投入、更享受、更全力以赴，而且人通常对自己感兴趣的事情更擅长。

Because you'll put more effort in, you'll enjoy it more, you'll commit yourself more to it and basically people are good at the things that they're interested in.

所以，对我而言最有价值的建议就是这个，我也经常把这个建议传递给别人。

So, you know, the piece of advice I always, that's been most valued to me is that and I pass that advice on.

另外我想说的是，某种程度上就是放手去做。

And then the other thing I would say is sort of just kind of go for it.

我是说，你提到的关于导师的事情很有意思。我想说的是，回顾那些曾指导过我的人——虽然不是正式的导师，而是我敬仰并支持我职业发展的人——几乎都是男性。

I mean, it's interesting all the stuff you're talking about mentors and I would say, I mean, if I think about the people that I've had as mentor, I I mean, not formal mentors, but people I've looked up to that have supported my career, pretty much all men.

所以我真的不会...你知道，我会鼓励人们从任何可能的地方获取支持，找到那些你认为能真正在你处理的问题和思考方向上给予良好建议的人。

And so I really wouldn't, you know, I would encourage people to just get support from wherever you can get it from actually and find people who you think will really sort of be good advisers to you on the sorts of issues that you're dealing with and what you're thinking about.

但归根结底，做你感兴趣的事情——这基本上是我认为最有价值的建议。

But but, yeah, do what you're interested in, basically, and would be the piece of advice that I've I've proved valued the most,

我想。

I think.

是的。

Yeah.

我的建议非常、非常相似。

Mine very, very similar.

你必须做你热爱的事情，热爱思考、讨论、写作并持续投入的事情。

You've got to do something that you you love doing, and you love thinking about, and talking about, and writing about, and working on all the time.

但同样，虽然拥有女性榜样很有帮助，因为正如克莱尔所说，如果你看不到，你就无法成为那样的人。

But but likewise, while it's helpful helpful to have female role models, because as Claire says, if you can't see it, you can't be it.

但同时，拥有男性榜样也非常重要，作为职业女性，同样需要有你信任的人。

But also, it's really important to have male role models as well, and people that you trust as well as a working woman.

你提到的关于要有趣并找到兴趣点对我来说很贴切，因为你知道，我曾在经济学人智库工作，既是经济学家也撰写政治类文章。

And your point about being interesting and finding it interesting for someone for me because I, you know, I'd worked at the Economist Intelligence Unit, I was an economist and I also wrote about the politics.

我记得曾问过一位在金融行业工作的朋友关于经纪人和经济学家的事。

I remember asking the one person I knew that worked in the financial sector about being a broker and economist.

他说，珍妮特，你不必总是正确。

He said, Janet, you don't have to be right.

你只需要有趣就行。

You just got to be interesting.

这话虽然有点那个，但确实让我思考。

Which is kind of a bit but it did make me think about it.

这不仅关乎你是否用复杂模型做出了最佳成果（我那份工作的性质），还关乎叙事元素，以及你所说的内容是否有趣。

It's not just whether you've done the best possible piece of work in a very complicated model, the nature of the job that I was in, it was about the storytelling element as well and about being interesting in what you were saying.

是啊，那也很重要。

So, yeah, that too.

非常好的建议。

Really good advice.

我总是能学到新东西，你知道的。

I always learn something new, you know.

没错，一定要做你喜欢的事，发掘自己的兴趣所在，或许可以重新审视它。

Yeah, definitely do what you like and find about what you like and maybe revisit that.

这是我高中生物老师给过我的最佳建议。

That's the best advice that I was given by my biology teacher in high school.

所以你永远不知道建议会来自何方，这就是另一个道理——导师无处不在，人们也处处愿意提供帮助。

So you never know where the advice may be coming from and that is the other thing That mentors are everywhere and people want to help everywhere.

这也是我的发现之一。

That's also something that I've discovered.

这不一定非得是正式的关系。

It doesn't have to be a formal relationship.

并非每件事都需要有导师指导。

It doesn't have to be a mentor for everything.

但你会发现生活中处处都有这些小建议，关键是要意识到什么时候别人是在试图帮助你，什么时候别人是在告诉你一些真正能带来改变的事情，对吧？

But you'll find those small advices throughout and it's just being aware of when you know somebody's trying to help you and somebody's trying to tell you something that is actually going to make a difference, right?

所以我认为保持开放的心态非常重要。

So just being open to that I think it's quite important.

另外，我想对我来说，特别是回到儿童和女性这个话题，思考最低标准也非常重要。

And also I guess for me and going back to children and going back to women in particular, what was really important was to think around minimums as well.

比如什么是最低质量要求，对女性而言这个标准已经相当高了，门槛很高。

Like what is the minimum quality and that is as a woman that is already quite high, quite a high bar.

因为当时间变得非常紧迫时，由于你面临的各种需求。

Because when time becomes really, really pressing because of all the demands that you have.

我的意思是，这不仅仅是针对有孩子的人，作为本科生，也会有考试期间无法像平时那样参与社团活动的时候。

And I mean, it's not necessarily just children, but as an undergraduate, there are times where you would have your exams and you won't be able to participate in your societies as much as you would.

所以在那些时刻，我认为要考虑授权，但要带着目的去授权，这样你才能传递你的知识、经验和热情给下一代。

So in those moments, I think thinking about delegating, but delegating with purpose so that you can pass on your knowledge and you can pass on your experience and you can pass on your passion onto the next generation.

我认为应该尽早这样做，而不是等到以后。

And I think doing that earlier rather than later.

比如，如果你是大一学生，参加社团活动，可能在写博客文章。

So, you know, if you're a first year undergraduate and you're participating in a society and maybe you're writing blog posts.

到了大二，你既要设计又要同时写作。

And then the second year, you are designing those and writing at the same time.

那么或许可以把写作任务交给下一届学生，自己则专注于更具领导力或战略性的角色，同时为下一代创造机会。

Well, maybe pass on the writing to the next level of students and concentrate on more of a leadership or a strategic type of role, but enriching and giving that opportunity to the next generation.

我认为越早开始实践这一点越好，不要把委派视为转嫁工作，而应将其视为发展和保留机会的方式。

And I think the sooner that one start to get practice with that and seeing delegating not as a way of passing on work, but actually as a way to develop and keep opportunities.

而且必须要有明确目的，要当作一种投资来做。

And then it has to be done with purpose and it has to be done as an investment.

我认为这一点也相当重要。

I think that's also quite important.

至少对我来说，这确实很有帮助。

Or to me, it really helped.

好的，很好。

Okay, great.

阿尔马登的演讲和我们这里讨论的各种问题都讲得很清楚，但我们需要思考如何改进和改变现状。

So both Almaden's talk and various things that we've discussed here make it clear, but, you know, we want to think about how can we improve things, how can we change things.

那么我们认为这里合适的变革推动者是谁？

So who who do we think of the appropriate agents of change here?

我们认为是企业吗？

Do we think it's firms?

我们认为是银行吗？

Do we think it's bank?

我们认为是学校里的情况吗？

Do we think it's what's going on in the schools?

你们三位在这方面经验丰富，在职业生涯中见过很多可能的改进方式和实现途径。

You three have lots of experience of that, and you've seen a lot during your careers, I think, about possible ways in which things could be improved and how can that be?

我们看到这个相当停滞的趋势，也许略有回升，但我们不能只依赖群体效应。

I mean, we've seen this fairly stagnant trend, maybe a little tick up ticks up, but we don't want to leave it to a cohort effect.

但我觉得克莱尔提出的观点很有意思。

But I think it's interesting the point that Claire made.

本科经济学专业的女性比例，我认为和我1990年毕业时一样。

The share of women studying undergraduate economics, I think it's the same as it was when I graduated in 1990.

为什么这个比例没有上升？

Why hasn't that risen?

我在想最近学校推动的金融素养教育，特别是考虑到很多学校甚至不提供经济学A-level课程，这根本不在很多人的考虑范围内。

I wonder whether these most recent moves towards teaching financial literacy in schools, especially if we're talking about the fact that a lot of schools don't even teach economics A level, it's just not something that a lot of people even consider.

也许这能扩大人才储备池，不是吗？

Maybe that's it broadens the pool, doesn't it?

也许学术界18%的比例，当与36%相比时，并不那么令人震惊。

Maybe the 18% figure in academia isn't as shocking when it's measured as against thirty six.

或者说，某些行业女性占比50%，而实际上只有36%的女性经济学毕业生，也许最大的改变需要从这里开始——让更多女孩从小就开始学习经济学。

Or so, 50% of women in some sectors when actually only 36% of women economics are graduates, maybe that's where some of the biggest changes need to happen, just getting more girls studying it at a much younger age.

这样你就能扩大人才储备池...但在学校阶段，

And then you're broadening the pool that that, you know But in schools,

看起来增加经济学课程供应并没有太大效果，正如我们所说，趋势基本持平。

seems like making a lot of economics available hasn't done much because, as we say, the trends are kind of flat.

其实供应量并没有增加。

Well, it isn't more available.

我的意思是，这基本上就是它存在的一个小问题。

I mean, that's basically the the a slight problem with it.

我们现在有一个计划，正在招募那些有教授相关学科资质的人。

I mean, we've got a scheme at the moment where we are taking people who are qualified to teach in sort of adjacent subject.

比如数学、地理等专业背景的老师，目前我们正在试点培训他们教授经济学，以增加师资供给。

So maths, geography, and we are, you know, at the moment we're piloting a system of teaching them to teach economics because it will provide more a greater supply of teachers.

但实际上，比如A-Level经济学课程对学生的可及性并没有显著提升。

But actually the proportion of, the availability of, for example, A Level Economics to kids has not gone up particularly.

所以，我同意珍妮特的看法。

So, you know, I agree with Janet.

根本上还是需要从早期教育入手，扩大人才储备池。

You've got to get there early basically and expand the pool.

这实际上就是，你知道的，诚实地讲供求关系问题。

And that is about, you know, supply and demand being honest.

但也有证据表明，人们想学习经济学，但学校因为找不到老师而无法开设这门课程。

But there is, you know, there's also evidence that people want to study economics but their schools can't offer it because they can't find teachers to do it.

所以，你知道，这正在逐渐深入这个问题。

So, you know, it's getting into it's getting into that.

当然，还有一系列事情，作为雇主——比如经济学家们，政府和英格兰银行就是很好的例子。

And then, of course, there are a set of things that as employers, you know, of economists and the government is a good example of this and the Bank of England is a good example of this.

大型雇主，你知道的，也负有某种责任。

Big employers, you know, have a responsibility to sort of also.

正如珍妮特所说，我不希望仅仅因为她们是女性就让大量女性在银行工作。

I mean, as Janet says, I don't want loads of women to work at the bank because they're women.

我想要的是，嗯，让最优秀的人在银行工作，明白吗？

I want loads of like, I want the best people to work at the bank, right?

你知道的，来自各种不同背景和观点的人。

You know, from all sorts of different, you know, backgrounds, perspectives.

这才是多样性的真正意义所在。

And that's what sort of diversity really is about.

是关于拥有不同观点、不同视角的人，而你只想要最好的。

It's about people with different viewpoints, different perspectives, and you just want the best.

这意味着你必须拥有最广泛的人才库。

And that means you've got to have the widest talent.

所以，你知道，我们必须找到那些。有很多关于那些被埋没的玛丽·居里们的证据，对吧？

And so, you know, we've got to get all those, you know, there's a lot of evidence around the missing Marie Curies, right?

我们必须找到他们，必须让他们与机会接轨。

We've got to find them, we've got to get them connected to the opportunities.

但我想说的是，在学校层面，你知道，有很多人学习商业研究。

But I mean, sticking with schools down, I you know, there's lots of business business studies that people do.

这其中确实包含一些经济学内容。

And there is some economics in that.

但人们学习的课程设置是否真的能培养出经济学家呢？

But is it the right curriculum that people are being taught to go on to be economists?

或者说，这是否会让人望而却步？

Or is it would that put people off?

我的意思是，我也不确定。

I mean, I don't know.

是的。

Yes.

我是说，没错。

I mean, yeah.

丹峰在这方面已经做了相当多的工作。

Danfeng has has been doing quite a lot on on this.

皇家经济学会也通过'发现经济学'项目参与其中。

The Royal Economic Society as well with the Discover Economics program.

今年我认为选修经济学A-level课程的学生有所增加，我们愿意相信事情正朝着正确的方向发展。

This year I think there was an uptick in A levels in economics of the students that We want to think that things are starting to move in the right direction.

正如克莱尔所说，本科学习经济学并不需要经济学A-level成绩，但我认为这有助于了解这门学科，因为就我而言，当初选择这门课基本上是通过排除法偶然决定的。

And again, as Claire said, you don't need economics A levels to study economics in undergraduate, but I think it helps in getting to know the subject because in my case it was by chance basically by elimination of subjects.

我最终选择了经济学，但这并非因为我知道自己想做什么。

I ended up in economics but it wasn't because I knew what I wanted to do.

但这某种程度上

But it's kind

如果你把它作为A-level课程来学，风险会小一些。

of less risky if you do it as an A level.

是的。

Yeah.

事实就是如此。

It's truth of matter.

这只是你选修的三四门课之一，你完全可以应付过去，然后想，幸好我没等到18岁才去学它三年，如果不喜欢那可就痛苦了。

It's only one of the three or four that you do And you can just about get through it and think, oh, glad I didn't wait till I was 18 and go and study it for three years and be miserable if you don't like it.

所以我认为这其中包含这样的因素：它不仅仅是浅尝辄止，但也并非全情投入。

So I think there is that element of it's more than dipping your toe in but it's not full commitment.

这就是我接下来至少三年要倾注精力研究的领域。

This is where I'm going to spend the next at least three years of my life studying it.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们还得说服人们应该在这个领域建立职业生涯，对吧？

We've got to also convince people that they should build a career in it, right?

看看这个，观众真是太棒了。

Look at this, it's a fantastic audience.

他们已经在这里了，没错。

They're already here, yes.

对吧？

Right?

是啊，但我不知道他们打算做什么，你们打算做什么呢？

Yeah, but I don't know what they're going to do, like what are you guys going to do Right?

你们应该想来当经济学家。

You should want to come and be an economist.

这太棒了。

It's brilliant.

对吧？

Right?

我们坦白说吧。

Let's be let's be frank.

这真的很有趣。

It's really interesting.

对吧？

Right?

每天都不一样。

Every day is different.

你会思考不同的事情。

You're thinking about different things.

我是说，就像你刚才说的那样，对吧？

I mean, as you were saying, right?

你从事这行并不是因为你一直梦想在银行工作。

You don't do it because you always wanted to work at a bank.

你做这份工作是因为它真的很有趣。

You do it because it's a really interesting job Yeah.

它能帮助你理解这个世界。

That helps you understand the world.

对吧？

Right?

实际上这份工作收入相当可观。

It's actually like pretty lucrative.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，虽然你不会成为亿万富翁，但这确实是那种能给你更好生活选择的工作之一。

I mean, you know, you're not gonna be a billionaire, but, you know, actually, it's one of those jobs that gives you better life choices.

对吧？

Right?

它能让你对生活有更多掌控权。

It gives you control over much more of your life.

要知道，这绝对是我认为的，你可以从事多种工作。

You know, it's I absolutely, you can do a range of things.

你可以灵活变动。

You can move around it.

可以在英国工作。

Can work in The UK.

也可以去国外工作。

You can work abroad.

你可以在全国各地工作。

You can work all around the country.

还能涉足不同行业领域。

You can work in different sectors.

所以我也认为，我们应该更多地把这个职业宣传为值得认真考虑的选择。说实话，我觉得自己很幸运，在还不太懂事的年纪就做出了这些选择。

So I also think we should be selling it a bit more as a career that people should really think about and take seriously as an option because, you know, I mean, I feel really lucky that I made those choices when I was quite young and didn't really know what I was sort of doing.

没错。

No.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像，我只是运气好，别人做了不同的选择，而且你知道，你掌握的信息没那么充分。

Like, I I was just lucky other people made different choices and, you know, you don't have as much information.

所以我认为我们真的需要大力宣传这个职业，它确实很有回报。

So I think there's a we really need to sort of be out there selling it as a career that is really rewarding.

不，我完全同意。

No, I completely agree.

我觉得自己非常非常幸运，能把大部分时间用来思考和讨论世界上正在发生的事情。

I feel that I am very, very privileged to spend most of my day thinking and talking about what's going on in the world.

确实如此。

So, yeah.

是的，我完全赞同。

Yes, I couldn't agree more.

我以为这是因为我是学者，我热爱我的工作，喜欢埋头处理数据、论文和模型。

I thought it was because I was an academic and I loved my job and I loved sitting down with my data and my papers and my models.

所以我喜欢听你这么说，因为我认为这与成为经济学家有关。

So I love to hear this from because I think it has to do with being an economist.

我认为经济学家以非常不同的方式看待世界，以非常不同的方式理解世界，这种方式非常具有启发性。

I think economists look at the world in a very different way, Understand the world in a very different way in ways that I don't know it's very enlightening.

而且这种方式非常强大，因为如果你以特定方式看待世界，你就能思考如何改变这个世界，让它变得更好——我想这正是我们都想做的，对吧？

And then it's very powerful because if you see the world in particular ways, you can think about different ways of changing that kind of world in a way that makes the world a better place which I guess that's what we all want to do, right?

这可能是我们之前讨论最佳建议时没谈到的关于价值观的问题，对吧？

And this is something that maybe we didn't discuss when you asked about the best advice is about your values, right?

我认为经济学让你能够追求这些价值观。

And I think economics allows you to pursue those values.

当我开始学习经济学时，我并不知道经济学是什么，但我对自己的价值观和身边的不平等现象非常确定。

And when I started to study economics, I didn't know what economics was but I but I was very certain about my values and and the inequalities that were around me.

经济学给了我如此强大的工具，不仅用来研究和理解这些现象，还能真正采取行动改变现状。

And economics gave me such a powerful tool not just to study and understand them but to actually do something about it.

所以，是的，我不能再赞同更多了。

So it's, yeah, I couldn't say more.

好的，这是我们小组讨论的完美结束点。

Okay, that's a great place to end our panel discussion.

接下来我们将进入问答环节，正如开始时提到的，我们会接受现场观众的提问。

And we'll move on to the next section, is going be Q and A, which as I mentioned at the start, we can take questions from the audience.

如果线上有任何问题，我们也可以接收一些文字提问。

And if there's any questions being asked online, we can can take some words as well.

哦，我们已经收到了很多回答。

Oh, we've got a lot of answers.

所以，所以

So so

所以，所以将会会有

so so there's gonna be there's gonna be

我想会有移动麦克风。

a roving a roving microphones, I think.

让我们，让我们说一个在...哦，不。

Let's let's say about one in the oh, no.

好的，继续。

Let's yeah.

继续吧。

Go on.

中间有一个。

One in the middle.

我不知道为什么这么说，因为把移动麦克风送到中间显然是最糟糕的决定。

I I don't know why I said that because getting a roving microphone to the middle is obviously the worst decision completely.

我们一次处理两三个问题怎么样？

Let let's take should we take two or three at a time?

我们应该这样做吗？

Should we do that?

我需要笔，因为我记不住。

I need to pen because I won't be able to remember.

谢谢

Thank

非常感谢你们的展示。

you very much for your presentations.

我的问题...好吧，可能我有点落后了。

And my question Well, maybe I'm little behind.

不过没关系。

But okay.

好的。

Okay.

可以是第二个。

Can be second.

应该

Should

我现在可以提问吗？

I give a question or not now?

因为我感觉可以吗？

Because I feel like okay?

好的。

Okay.

我是个刚进入经济金融领域的年轻女孩。

So I'm quite a young girl who just got in economics and finance as well.

我在德勤工作。

I work for Deloitte.

我23岁。

I'm 23 years old.

我的具体问题是，每次在会议室里我都被男性包围，作为唯一的女性，当涉及税务问题时，我很难真正发表意见或提出看法。

My question is specifically every time I am in a meeting room, I'm fooled with men, and I'm the only woman, And it's quite challenging for me to actually speak up or give an opinion when it comes to taxation in this case.

所以我的问题是，在你职业生涯初期，在获得头衔和多年经验之前，是什么策略帮助你获得了在男性面前发言的机会？

And so my question is, what strategies helped you before you started your career and before you actually got the title and all those years years of experience to actually have the opportunity to speak up in front of men.

是什么让你建立了这种可信度？

Like, what made you build that credibility?

这就是我的问题，如果你有任何建议，我很乐意听取。

So that's my if you have any advice, would love to hear that.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你可以第二个发言。

You can go second.

哦，好的。

Oh, yeah.

继续说吧。

Go on.

不。

No.

不。

No.

麦克风在你那里。

You've got the mic.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我可以。

I can.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thank you.

对。

Yeah.

我的问题是关于你人生中那些让你更难达到现在这个位置的事件？

So my my question is regarding the events in your life that made it more difficult to to get the position that you have now?

那么在你的人生中，有哪些事件可能阻碍了你比现在提前两年或五年达到这个职位？

So what were the like the events in your life that prevented you maybe to reach this position like two, five years earlier than you got it now?

好的。

Okay.

然后我们会回答第三个问题。

And then we'll take answers to the three.

我叫艾莎。

My name is Ayesha.

我也是一名发展经济学教授。

I'm also a professor of development economics.

所以我的问题是关于我们正在教授并实际应用的经济学。

So my question is on the economics that we are teaching, we are applying in ground.

我的经验是精英主义难以解决基层问题，尤其是真正的基层问题，特别是低收入国家中与性别相关的基层问题和妇女问题。

I experience is to elitist to solve grassroot, real grassroot issues, especially gendered grassroot issues, women issues in low income countries.

显然，这必须辅以社会科学的其他优势，比如人类学，它为文化、宗教以及社会各种动态中的基层差异提供了基础。

Obviously, it should definitely be complemented by the other strengths of social sciences, such as anthropology, which provides a foundation for cultural, religious, any grassroot variations across the the varying dynamics of the society.

那么你对此有何看法？

So what do you think about it?

我真的很想知道这是否也是你们的经验，因为我们一直在基层工作。

I'm really wonder wondering about how this is our experience because we always work in grassroots.

而理论，大多数经济学理论的传统继承理论在实践中并不奏效。

And theory, the legacy, inherited theory of most of the economic theory is not working in the ground.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thank you.

好的。

Okay.

很好。

Great.

谢谢。

Thanks.

我们...我们已经有三个了。

We we got we've got we've got three.

当你是房间里、小组中或任何活动中唯一的女性时，这是否会阻碍你发言？或者你学会了什么策略来发声？当时发生了什么情况？

When you're the only woman in the room, or the group or whatever the the activity is, you know, does that prevent you speaking up or what strategy did you learn to speak up or what occurred there?

我觉得我是男性主席。

Feel I feel that I I'm the male chair.

我还问了一些略带负面性的问题。

I asked then slightly negative questions as well.

有任何男性问题吗？

There's any male question.

说，想象一下你的生活变得困难会怎样？

Said, what what what what to imagine your life has made in difficult?

这也是一个非常糟糕的建议性问题。

So that's a very bad advice question as well.

然后基层有个很重要的问题：经济学作为一门学科是否能很好地解答这类问题，特别是当这些问题涉及性别角度时？

And then grassroots, a very important question about how can is economics a good discipline and subject for informing those kinds of questions and especially if there's a gender angle to them as well?

那么谁想先开始？

So who wants who wants to begin?

你好。

Hi.

我打断一下本次活动，想向大家推荐另一个精彩的LSE播客，相信你们会喜欢。

I'm interrupting this event to tell you about another awesome LSE podcast that we think you'd enjoy.

LSE IQ邀请社会科学家及其他专家回答一个智慧问题，比如人们为何相信阴谋论，或者我们能否负担得起超级富豪的存在？

LSE IQ asks social scientists and other experts to answer one intelligent question, like why do people believe in conspiracy theories, or can we afford the super rich?

快来收听我们的节目吧。

Come check us out.

只需在您获取播客的地方搜索LSE IQ即可找到我们。

Just search for LSE IQ wherever you get your podcasts.

现在让我们回到活动现场。

Now back to the event.

好吧，我...我就从作为房间里唯一女性这个话题开始吧，虽然我怀疑自己并非唯一有这种经历的人——我猜你们两位肯定也经常遇到这种情况。

Well, I I'll take the I'll I'll start on being the only woman in the room, although I suspect I'm not the only person that's I suspect you've both had quite a lot of I mean, loads of flat rate.

即使到现在，我还是经常发现自己身处满是男性的房间里，而且...你们知道的，很多时候你甚至都不会注意到这点，因为这太常见了。

And quite often even now, I find myself in a room and it's a load of men and it's, you know and quite often you don't sort of even notice it anymore because it's so common.

但当你突然置身于全是女性的房间时，你就会想：天啊，这感觉不一样了。

And then when you find yourself in a room with loads of women, you're like, Oh my God, something's different.

有什么不同？

What's different?

哦，是啊。

Oh yeah.

这真的很难，尤其是当你还是初级员工时，对吧？

It's really hard and it's really hard when you're junior, right?

但说实话，我现在对此的经历与过去完全不同了。

But I'll be honest, my experience with it now is completely different to what it was.

但当我像你们这个年纪时，那真的非常非常困难。

But when I was your age and it's really, really difficult.

你会在年底得到评估反馈，说你应该在会议上多发言，而你会想，是啊，这话是从一个男人嘴里说出来的，对吧？

And you will get like, at the end of the year, you will get appraisal feedback that's like you should speak up more in meetings and you're like, yeah, from a man, right?

你总是会站起来。

You always get up.

然后你就会想，是啊，好吧。

And you're like, yeah, okay.

我们能想象那会是什么感觉吗？

Can we imagine what that's going to feel like?

我认为有几件事可以做。

I think there's a couple of things to do.

第一件事就是，给自己一点喘息的空间，对吧？

One is like, give yourself a break, right?

你不必在每次会议中都发言，也不应该带着必须发言的压力参加每次会议，对吧？

You don't have to speak at every meeting and you shouldn't go into every meeting under pressure to speak, right?

没关系。

It's fine.

总的来说，如果我能给年轻时的自己一个建议，那就是别那么担心。

And my general, the one bit of advice if I could give myself from a long, you know, when I was younger, it's like, just don't worry so much.

一切都会好起来的。

It'll be okay.

如果你没什么可说的，就不必在会议上发言。

And you don't have to speak in a meeting if you forgot nothing to say.

别像很多人那样，尤其是男性，为了发言而发言，明白吗？

And don't do the thing that loads of people do, men and women, but particularly men, is make a point to make a point, Right?

你没必要那么做。

You don't have to do that.

只在能提供价值时才开口。

Only do some, only say something you've got value to add.

因为人们会注意到那些增值的评论。

Because people notice the value adding comments.

他们不会在意其他废话。

They don't notice the other stuff.

事实上那些废话只会让人烦躁，拖慢会议节奏。

In fact, they just get annoyed by it because it just slows everything down.

所以要认真想想：你真正了解什么？

So, you know, think about actually, what do you know?

你能在哪些方面提供价值？

Where can you add value?

你有哪些特质，你在会议中的独特卖点是什么？

What are the things that you, what's your USP in that meeting, right?

你可能注意到了哪些别人没注意到的事情？

What is it you might have noticed that no one else noticed?

你可以在哪些方面增添价值？

What might you have be able to add value?

你可以这样做，比如告诉自己：一周后有个会议，我要提前想好要表达的观点并做好准备。

And do that and think about, you know, you can, there are strategies you can do, like you can say to yourself, okay, there's a meeting coming up in a week's time, I'm I going to make a point and I'm going to think in advance what my point is and prepare yourself for it.

尝试一下看看效果如何，事后甚至可以询问会议上值得信赖的人：'我刚才提出的观点效果怎么样？'

And have a go and see how it feels and afterwards, and you can even ask someone else, someone trusted in the meeting, you know, how did it go when I made that point?

你可以做些这类尝试。

Know, you can do a bit of those sorts of things.

但也要给自己一些宽容，不必每次都强迫自己必须发言。

But would say, give yourself a bit of a break about it and don't worry that you always have to do it.

另外，如果你真正倾听别人的发言，有时会发现并非每个人都是天才。

The other thing is, if you actually listen to what other people say, sort of sometimes you realize like not everyone is a genius.

对吧？

Right?

你坐在那里，我也这样做。

You sort of sit there and I do this.

你坐在那里想着：天啊，我完全不明白发生了什么，其他人都那么聪明，他们都知道自己在说什么。

You sit there and you think, Oh my God, I don't understand anything that's going on and everyone else is so smart and they know what they're talking about.

但随着时间的推移，你会发现事实并非如此，实际上人们也相当紧张、相当不确定。

Like over time, you realize that's not true and actually, people are also quite nervous, quite uncertain.

所以我认为也要更现实些，事情本来就是复杂多样的。

And so, I think also just sort of be a bit more kind of realistic that there's a whole mix of sort of things.

有些人会提出非常好的观点，有些人则不会。

Some people will be making really good points, some people won't be.

这又不是世界末日。

It's not the end of the world.

但我会试着用更宏观的视角来看待，随着时间的推移，你会发现自己在这种环境中越来越自在，更能从容地表达观点——特别是当你坚持谈论那些你熟悉且有信心的话题时。

But I would just try and put it in a bit of perspective and over time, you will find that you become more comfortable in that environment and more comfortable making your points, particularly if you stick to, you know, making points about things that you are comfortable with and confident in.

是的，我完全同意。

Yeah, I completely agree.

首先，作为第一个提问的人，大概是因为房间里有很多女性。

So, first of all, for being the first person to ask a question presumably because there are a lot of women in the room.

但我记下了一个词——策略性的练习。

But the one word I wrote down because of a strategy, sort practice.

真希望能给你一些有效的应对策略。

I wish I could give you some really good kind of coping strategies.

我完全同意克莱尔说的，当然这取决于具体情况。

I agree with everything that Claire said and obviously it depends on the situation.

这取决于你参加会议的原因。

It depends why you are in the meeting.

是什么让你获得了参会的资格？

What has got you a seat at the meeting?

大家期望你做出什么贡献？

What do people expect you to be delivered?

不要急于非要第一个提问并让人听到你的观点。

And don't be desperate to necessarily ask the first question and get your point heard.

有些会议的重点在于你要表达观点。

Sometimes you have meetings where it is about you making a point.

有时会议实际上是为了提问，因此策略不是发表演讲，而是直接提问，并记住你最初为何在场。

Sometimes it's about actually it's for asking questions and therefore the strategy is not to make a speech, just ask a question and remember why you are in the room to start with.

这取决于具体情况和实践经验。

It depends on the situation and practice.

正如克莱尔所说，即使到了今天，我仍会有这样的时刻——你发现自己身处会议室，有时仍会因为成为满屋男性中唯一的女性而感到些许紧张。

And as Claire says, even today I still have moments, you still find yourself in the room and you are still sometimes a bit nervous about being the only woman in the room, in a room full of men.

这种情况依然会发生。

It still happens.

好的。

Okay.

我完全同意你所说的每一点。

I agree with everything that you said.

我想我可以问的是，我刚和一些资历较浅的女性交谈，她在IT行业工作，她告诉我她参加了一个会议，会上有两位资深女性和两位资历较浅的男性，而这些资历较浅的男性一直在说话，那两位资深女性却无法表达自己的观点。

What I think I can ask, I was just talking to more junior women and she works in IT and she was telling me, she was in a meeting and there were two senior women and there were two men that were more junior and the more junior men were talking constantly and these two senior women couldn't get their point across.

这正是我们在这里真正讨论的问题。

This is what we're really talking about here.

并不是你不知道该说什么。

It's not that you don't know what to say.

而是每次你进去发言时，总会有人打断你。

It's simply that every time you go in and talk, there isn't that somebody cuts you in.

所有人都假装没在听你说话。

Everybody pretends they're not listening to you.

我在研讨会上也遇到过这种情况，当我提问时。

It's happened to me in seminars where I would ask a question.

问题会被敷衍了事，然后十分钟后有个男性提出同样的问题，大家却会就此讨论半小时，对吧？

It would be sort of dismissed and then ten minutes later a man would ask the same question and there would be a half an hour discussion about it, right?

你会觉得，这到底是怎么回事？

And you're like, what happened here?

所以我认为，正如珍妮特和克莱尔所说，你确实有能力提前准备，通过练习来提升自己。

So I think, yes, you do have the power, as Janet and Claire were saying, to prepare in advance, to think that you yourself can get practice.

但也要意识到这些动态关系确实存在，问题并不在于你，而是周围发生的某些事情与你无关。

But I think being also aware that these dynamics exist and that it's not about you, but there are things going on around you that have nothing to do with you.

很多时候这并非有意为之。

This is a lot of the times it's not on purpose.

这只是我们习惯的做事方式，对吧？

It's simply the way that we have been used to do things, right?

总之，我只是想给你这种安心感。

So anyway, so I just want to give you that reassurance.

我不知道这是否算安慰，但别觉得所有问题都该由你在会议上一人解决。

I don't know if it is reassurance or not, but just don't feel that it's all for you to solve at a meeting.

对我而言，有效的做法是——比如在那个我想到的研讨会上，有位资深女同事在十分钟后那个男人提出同样问题时指出：'没错，这正是十分钟前阿尔穆德娜提出的问题。'

And I think for me what's worked when, for example, when this thing about know, in this particular seminar that I'm thinking of, there was a senior female colleague who when that happened and this man raised and asked the question ten minutes after, she said, yes, that is right.

这就是十分钟前阿尔穆德娜问过的问题。

This is what Almudena asked ten minutes ago.

这是非常重要的一点。

This is a very important point.

对吧？

Right?

所以要在会议前或会议期间找到Alice，了解将要讨论的内容，明确你想表达的观点和想要传达的重点。

So finding Alice in meetings beforehand or during the meeting, you know, to know what what is going to be discussed, to know what your point, the point that you want to make and the point that you want to bring across.

然后找到一个支持者——可以是女性也可以是男性，就是一个会关注你和会议动态、基本上能帮你一把的人。

And to then find an alley which can be a woman, can be a man, it's just an alley that is going to be looking at you and the dynamic and lending you a hand basically.

这个支持可以简单到只是点头认同，对吧？

And it can be simply nodding, right?

在你发言时点头支持，这实际上很有力量。

Nodding as you speak and that is quite powerful actually.

所以，是的，我想我比预期提供了更多具体建议。

So, yeah, I guess I have his specific tips more than what I thought.

那基层教学呢？

And the grassroots teaching?

基层的，是的。

The grassroots, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

为什么我觉得这是个非常好的问题。

Why I think it's a really good question.

听着，我没有发展经济学的背景，那里显然有一整套庞大的文献议题。

And look, I'm not a I don't have a background in development economics where obviously there's a whole sort of massive issue in literature.

但我认为有一个非常重要的问题：经济学是否在为人民服务？这也是当前对经济学的一个真正批评，对吧？

But I think there's a really important question about is economics delivering for people and a real criticism of economics at the moment, right?

实际上，无论你怎么描述这个体系，它都没有为人民服务，这就是为什么人们正在核心体系之外寻找替代方案。

Which is, you know, actually this system, however you describe it, isn't delivering for people and that's why people are looking for alternatives outside of the sort of core, you know, system.

在很多政策上，经济学家会告诉你一件事，比如移民就是个很好的例子，对吧？

There's lots of policies where economists will tell you one thing, you know, that like migration is a good example of this, right?

经济学家会告诉你移民非常棒，因为它能促进增长，等等等等。

Economists will tell you that migration is fantastic because, you know, it increases growth, blah, blah, blah.

这与许多人的感受大相径庭，而且移民确实会带来各种实实在在的影响。

That's very different to how a lot of people feel about it, And there are very real sort of consequences of migration and all those sorts.

类似的例子不胜枚举。

You can think of a million examples like that.

我认为关键在于：经济体系和我们教授的理论是否真实反映了世界？它们是否有实际帮助？

I think so there is this question of does the economic system, does the theories that we teach, are they, you know, representing the world and are they helpful?

不过我认为解决之道不是抛弃经济学，而是应该从经济学内部寻找答案。

I think the answer to that though, is not to sort of throw economics out, but to sort of look within economics.

那么，为什么当前存在如此多的不满情绪？

So, why have we got such a lot of discontent at the moment?

实际上，这很大程度上与真实收入、生产率等长期趋势有关。

Well, actually a lot of that is about things like real incomes, productivity, what are we seeing over the longer term?

而这些问题的答案在于：如何实现能让全民受益的全国性经济增长。

And the answers to that are about actually how can you, you know, get growth going across all the country that benefits people.

这些问题的解决方案就在经济学范畴内，而非其外。

And the answers to those sit within economics, not outside it.

因此，我认为它既能帮助你诊断问题，也能协助解决问题。

So, I think it can help you both diagnose the problem, but also solve it.

我确实认为经济学面临一个真正的挑战，它需要做得更好——不能仅限于新古典主义或新凯恩斯主义模型，实际上必须更广泛地思考经济学、经济模型以及看待世界的不同方式。

I do think there is a real challenge for economics and economics got better than this, that it's not just about a new classical or new Keynesian model, actually you have to think much more broadly about economics, about economic models, about the different ways of seeing the world.

我认为某些非常经典的教学方式相当疏离人心，未能很好地反映人们对经济体的实际体验。

And I think some of the very sort of classical ways it's been taught have been quite alienating and haven't been a very good representation of people's experience of economies.

我认为经济学家不仅需要掌握理论，更要能理解和观察周围世界，将理论与现实相匹配，并根据真实世界的数据调整思考方式和理论框架，这一点至关重要。

And I think it's really important that economists not just can do the theory, but can also understand and observe the world around them and match the theory to that and adjust the way they think about things and their theories in light of what we see in the real world data.

无补充内容

Nothing to add to

确实。

that.

精彩的回答。

Excellent answer.

我们是否应该再听取几位现场观众提问，同时我也从线上选取一个问题。

Should we take a couple, let's take a couple more from the audience and one from me online.

你

You.

两个

Two

问题。

questions.

第一个问题是，关于A-level课程和经济学的设置讨论很多，但要知道，经济学并不是唯一一个代表性不足的学科。

One is, you know, there's a lot of talk about A levels and the provision of economics at A levels, but, you know, economics isn't the only subject that's very underrepresented.

我的意思是，一些STEM学科也是如此，而它们在A-level课程中是有设置的。

I mean, some of the STEM subjects are as well, and they have provision at A levels.

所以你真的认为，仅仅这样做就能显著改变现状吗？或者说能有多大效果？

So do you really think that's going to change the dial enough if or by by very much really, if if you just do that?

其次，我想听听你对于大学经济学职位是否应该采取女性专属短名单这种积极歧视政策的看法，你对此持什么立场？

And secondly, I'd like to have your views about whether there should be positive discrimination in the sense of women only shortlist for university jobs in economics, and what's your position on that?

我上周看到LSE发帖庆祝公共政策学院院长任命了一个30人团队。

I saw a post last week by the the LSE celebrating the appointment of the dean of public policy to a group of 30.

虽然这是一项了不起的成就，但我在照片中看到的唯一一件事就是30人中只有一位女性。

And whilst this was an incredible achievement, the only thing I could see in the photo was the one woman out of 30.

我不禁思考，特别是在这个本应代表全球经济学观点的团体中，像伦敦政治经济学院这样的机构是否有责任承认这些差异。

And I was wondering, like, especially in this group, which is meant to rep represent a global viewpoint of economics, If you think that institutions such as LSE have a responsibility to acknowledge these differences.

有位非常渴望进入大学学习经济学的人想知道，您是否有推荐的书籍可以阅读。

There's one from some person who's quite keen to get into economics at university and would like to know if you've got any tips for books they could read.

书籍。

Books.

是的。

Yeah.

英格兰银行出版了一本很棒的书。

There is a great book that is published by The Bank of England.

为什么我们不能直接印更多钱？

Why can't we just print more money?

没错。

Yes.

她现在正在写另一本书。

And and she's writing another book now.

是的。

Yes.

或者她是这么告诉我们的。

Or she told us.

她太棒了。

She's amazing.

鲁保罗。

Rupaul.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

绝对是的。

Definitely.

我没想到

I wouldn't think

是啊。

Yeah.

所以银行出版了一本名为《为什么我们不能直接印更多钱？》的书

So the banks published a book called Why Can't We Just Print More Money?

这非常好。

That's very good.

我的意思是，这本书对这类问题做了通俗易懂的解释，我觉得非常容易理解。

I mean, it's a sort of explainer on questions like that, which I think is is really accessible.

我没法推荐——我是个播客爱好者。

I can't recommend I'm a podcast person.

我平时听大量播客，其中有很多非常精彩的节目。

I just listen to loads of podcasts of which there are many that are brilliant.

所以我不太擅长在手机上推荐书籍。

So I can't I'm not great on recommending books on my phone.

候选名单。

Shortlist.

是的。

Yeah.

我们没谈太多。

We didn't talk too much.

我们讨论了很多关于变革推动者的准入问题等等，但现有的内容是关于候选名单和晋升之类的。

We went a lot about entry in the agents of change and so on, but existing things about short lists and promotions and so on.

我不赞成女性专用职位候选名单。

I'm not in favor of women only short lists for jobs.

我认为女性不需要这个。

I don't think women need that.

我认为，在公平公开的竞争中，女性完全有能力获得职位，而且她们经常能做到。

I think, you know, in a fair and open competition, women are more than capable of securing jobs and they often do.

我的观点是，这不是积极的区别对待，但我们必须认真思考就业机会平等究竟意味着什么。

What I do think, so I think it's not positive discrimination, but I think we have to take very seriously what we mean by equality of opportunity for jobs.

我认为你必须非常、非常认真地思考诸如面试小组、提供给候选人的信息、以及在人们申请工作之前给予多少支持等问题，以确保有一个公平的竞争环境。

And I think you have to think really, really hard about things like interview panels, things like the information you give to candidates, things like how much support you give to people way before they're at the point of applying for a job to make sure you've got a level playing field.

所以我解决这个问题的方式实际上是：如何消除所有障碍，让人们真正拥有公平的机会去接触事物。

So I would that's the way I would tackle it is actually how do you remove all the barriers so that people genuinely have a fair opportunity to access things.

但事实上我个人并不太赞同仅限女性的候选名单这种做法，不过你知道，在其他领域这种做法相当成功，政治就是一个非常成功的例子。

But I wouldn't be in fact, personally, I'm not a big fan of you sort of women only shortlist approach, but then, you know, it has worked quite successfully in other fields, politics being an example of where it's worked very, very successfully.

实际上，你知道，我会对那件事持同样看法吗？

And actually, you know, would I have said the same about that?

也许...也许我被证明是错的。

Maybe maybe I've been proved wrong.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们没能完全听清关于那个问题的提问，但我想问的是像LSE以及牛津剑桥这样的高层机构，是否应该在讨论女性经济学家方面发挥作用？

So so we couldn't completely hear the question about that, but I think it was about how should high level institutions like the LSE and I think Oxford and Cambridge, should they be playing a role in in in in talking about women in economics?

这是你想问的问题吗，我想？

Is that is that sort of what you're asking, I think?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

又是榜样作用，我认为。

Role models again, and I think.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我认为。

I think.

是这样吗？

Is is that right?

这个翻译合理吗？

Is it is that a reasonable translation?

是关于那30人的小组，对吧？

It's about the group of 30, wasn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但我认为他们没跟我提过这事，那些高端的，我想。

But I think it was haven't mentioned it to me, the high end ones, I think.

不过好吧。

But Okay.

抱歉。

Sorry.

是的。

Yeah.

也许就几句话

Maybe just a couple It of sentences

上周有一篇帖子庆祝公共政策学院院长被任命为三十人集团成员。

was a post last week celebrating the appointment of the dean of public policy to the group of 30.

我当时说，尽管这是一个了不起的成就，但我唯一能指出的问题是——在这个本应代表全球经济观点的30人团体中，女性成员只有一位。

And I I was saying the only thing I could see in this despite, like, this being an incredible achievement, I could only say that there was one woman in a one woman in a group of 30 in a group that's meant to be a global representative of economic viewpoints.

我的意思是，这显然涉及到人员任命和性别平衡的问题，或许不仅需要候选名单，还需要配额制度。

I mean, it's obviously a role for people appointing and gender balances and maybe not shortlist, but quotas.

我不知道大家对此怎么看。

I don't know what people think about that.

我是说，30人中只有1位女性，这个比例总得有所改善吧。

I mean, it has to get better to some extent if it's one out 30.

我是说...

I mean

我们都知道配额制的问题在于：作为短期解决方案可能有效，因为它能打破平衡，但也可能引发反弹和反制措施。

the issue with the quotas as we know is that as a short term solution it may work because it may tip the balance but it also may lead to backlash and counter measures.

所以我认为这方面的证据仍然存在很大争议空间。

So I think the evidence is still quite open there.

关于伦敦政治经济学院能做什么，我无法代表公共政策学院发言，因为我实际上没有与他们打过交道。

In terms of what LSE can do, I think that our I cannot speak for the public policy school because I have actually not interacted with them.

尽管我看过他们的网站，男性占据绝对主导地位。

Although I have looked at their Web site and it's very male dominated.

实际上我上周刚和校长谈过，我提出了这一点，他提到情况可能正在向好的方向转变。

I was talking to the president the other last week actually and I raised this point and he mentioned that things may be changing there in the right direction.

所以我完全认同你的观点，我们应该以身作则。在CEP，我们在这方面已经坚持了相当长一段时间，这次活动也是其中的一部分。

So I totally take your point that we should be playing by example and I think at CEP this is something that we have been doing for quite some time now and this is part of that, this event is part of that.

所以今天在场的几位同事都是CEP女性经济学倡议的成员，致力于改变伦敦政治经济学院的现状。

So some of my colleagues here today are part of the women in economics initiative at CEP trying to change things at LSE.

好的。

Okay.

我们能稍等一下吗？

Can we just stick around?

这里有一个。

There's one here.

那里。

There.

我们没时间了。

And we 're run out of time.

我们时间不够了，我是说，因为大家提问的热情太高了，不过好吧。

We're gonna run out of time, I mean, for it because there's so much interest in asking questions, but okay.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我是一名银行家，同时也是地方议员。

I'm a banker and also a local counselor.

我在英国银行业发现的一个现象是，高层女性非常少，不像印度有三分之一的银行首席执行官是女性。

One of the things that I found in banking here in UK is that we have very few women at the top, unlike in India where one third of the women chief executives of the banks are women.

所以学习特定专业的女性，无论是经济学、金融学还是其他任何学科，如果她们被看到能够晋升到高层，如果你们能在公开场合——比如在12年级、13年级的课堂上发表演讲——那么就会有越来越多的女性加入金融和经济领域。

So women who study a particular subject, whether it's economics, finance, or any subject for the matter, if they are seen to be going to the top and if you are seen in public, you know, attending addressing such classes in year year 12, year 13, then they would join more and more in finance and economics.

就是这一点。

That one.

她们应该被视为榜样，这样你们才能获得晋升机会。

They should be seen as role models and that you'll get promotions.

我有个侄女2002年曾在这里停留。

I have a niece who got who stayed here in 2002.

她从最初就一直在问：我的未来会怎样？

Her question right from the start was, what will happen to me?

我能获得更多晋升机会吗？诸如此类的问题。

Will I get more promotions, more promotions, things like that?

所以她们渴望登上顶峰，看到像你们这样进入大学宣讲的人——看，我们学了金融经济，现在我们身居高位。

So they want to get to the top and they see people like you going to colleges and saying, look, we did finance and economics and look, we are at the top.

请你们也这样做，你们同样会获得晋升。

You please do the same thing, you will also go up.

事实上，性别不会成为阻碍，尤其对女性而言更是如此。

And the fact that you're a man or a woman will not come in your way, more so if you are a woman.

而说到女性问题，这其实是发达国家的通病。

And when it comes to women, it's a problem of a developed country.