游戏学351：通过游戏促进健康

欢迎收听《游戏学》，一档探讨游戏本质的播客节目。

Welcome to Ludology, a podcast about the why of gaming.

本期《游戏学》节目由威尔·沃德拉、乔纳森·切弗和杰瑞·里斯联合制作。

This episode of Ludology is produced by Will Vodra, Jonathan Chever, and Jerry Reese.

《游戏学》第351期。

Ludology episode 351.

通过游戏促进健康。

Better health through gaming.

我是埃里卡·布吉里斯。

I'm Erica Bujiris.

我是林森峰。

And I'm Senfeng Lim.

琼·马西斯科是美国俄亥俄州莱特州立大学公共卫生学助理教授。

Joan Masisko is an assistant professor of public health at Wright State University in Ohio in The United States Of America.

乔还是一位致力于游戏与公共卫生交叉领域的设计师兼研究员。

Joe is also a designer and researcher working at the intersection of games and public health.

他目前正在研究游戏如何促进亲社会和健康行为。

He's currently studying how games can promote pro social and pro health behaviors.

他设计了一款卡牌游戏来增强归属感，以及一款旨在教会孩子们如何验证假设的桌游。

He has designed a card game to promote a sense of belonging and a board game intended to teach kids how to test hypothesis.

他的研究探索了游戏如何通过将设计实践与评估方法相结合，来传递健康信息、改变行为并支持社区成果，从而创造出既引人入胜又可衡量的游戏。

His work explores how play can communicate health messages, change behavior, and support community outcomes by combining design practice with evaluation methods to make games that are both engaging and measurable.

欢迎你，乔。

Welcome, Joe.

嘿。

Hey.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

非常高兴能来到这里。

Really appreciate being here.

随时欢迎。

Anytime.

那么让我们从严肃的问题开始吧，我想知道你是如何定义严肃游戏的，这个术语与教育游戏、基于游戏的干预措施、游戏化等概念有何重叠或区别。

So let's get started with the serious questions because I'd like to know just how do you define serious games and how does that term overlap with or maybe even differ from educational games, game based interventions, gamification, all those words.

当然。

Sure.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

严肃游戏听起来确实很严肃，对吧。

Serious games sounds really serious Yeah.

一上来就这么说。

Right off the bat.

但我想非常明确地指出，严肃游戏也是或应该是充满乐趣的。

But I I want to be very clear that serious games are or should be fun too.

要定义严肃游戏，它是指一种完整的游戏体验，其主要目的超越了纯粹的娱乐。

So to define serious games, serious games are a full game experience where the primary purpose goes beyond just pure entertainment.

系统、主题、玩家决策，这些都是为实现特定结果而精心设计的。

The systems, theme, player decisions, they're all deliberately designed to achieve specific outcomes.

比如改变认知、转变态度、促成行为改变。

Things like changing knowledge, changing attitudes, behavior change.

这些都是主要目标。

These are all the big ones.

但也可以通过严肃游戏进行技能培养和健康促进。

But you can also do things like skill building and health promotion through serious games.

需要澄清的是，这并不意味着——准确地说，

And to clarify, this shouldn't or doesn't, rather.

澄清一下，这并不排斥将趣味性和娱乐性作为严肃游戏的目标。

To clarify, this doesn't preclude fun and entertainment as a goal of serious games.

这些游戏仍然应该充满乐趣，我认为这对严肃游戏的成功至关重要。

These games should still be fun, and I'd argue that makes it critical for the success of a serious game.

教育游戏和基于游戏的干预措施都属于严肃游戏的范畴。

Educational games and game based interventions are both types of serious games.

教育类游戏专门用于教学或促进学习。

Educational games specifically teach or facilitate learning.

在公共卫生领域，我需要先定义一下'干预措施'。

And in public health, I should define interventions.

干预措施是指那些旨在为参与者提供某种健康益处的项目或研究。

Interventions are things like programs or studies that aim to provide some sort of health benefit for people that participate in intervention.

例如，一项戒烟干预措施可能会帮助吸烟者获取戒烟资源。

So for example, a smoking intervention might help smokers access resources to quit smoking.

因此在基于游戏的干预中，该干预措施会使用游戏作为其组成部分。

So in a game based intervention, then that intervention uses games as part of the intervention.

但游戏化则是完全不同的概念。

Gamification, though, is a totally different beast.

游戏化是指应用抽象的游戏元素。

Gamification is applying abstract game elements.

这些元素包括奖励、反馈循环、排行榜等，将这类游戏元素应用于非游戏场景中。

These are things like rewards, feedback loops, leaderboards, using any of these kinds of game elements in non game contexts.

举个例子，在戒烟应用中添加奖励机制，只要没有实际游戏玩法，那就是游戏化，而非真正的游戏。

So for example, adding rewards to a quit smoking app, as long as there's some absence of gameplay, then that's gamification, not a game.

你知道吗？

You know what?

实际上，这正好无缝衔接了我们接下来想讨论的内容。

Actually, that's a perfect segue into what we kinda wanted to get into next.

因为我认为当人们熟悉教育与游戏的结合时，他们往往首先想到的就是游戏化。

Because I think when people if they're familiar with education and games combined, often they do think of gamification.

对吧？

Right?

就是把那些游戏元素加进去，比如追踪进度或增强记忆力之类的，好让你真正记住信息。

That idea of adding those game elements to, like, you know, track something or make your memory better or whatever it is so you actually retain information.

但正如你所说，这两者存在很大区别。

But as you're saying, there's a big difference here.

所以这对那些不太理解其中差异的人可能会有所帮助。

So maybe this would be helpful for people who don't quite get the difference.

当你听到游戏化与严肃游戏时，你认为两者在目标设计评估等方面有哪些差异？

When you hear gamification versus serious game, what do you see as kinda like the differences between, let's say, goal design evaluation?

对你来说，这两者在哪些方面存在明确的分界线？

Like, where do those divide in any clear line for you?

当然。

Sure.

绝对是这样。

Absolutely.

实际上两者有不少相似之处，不过我会同时阐述相似点和差异点。

So there's actually quite a few similarities, but so I'll go over both similarities and differences.

我认为最初两者的目标确实是一致的。

I think the goal really aims to be the same at first.

它们都是为了让用户或玩家与某个特定结果保持一致。

They're both about getting a user or a player to align with some specific outcome.

对吧？

Right?

所以可能是知识获取或某些行为改变。

So maybe it is knowledge acquisition or some behavior change.

但总的来说，我认为游戏化最终更侧重于提高参与度或执行与动机相关的特定期望行为。

But in general though, I think gamification ends up focusing more on increasing engagement or performing some desired behavior specific to motivation.

例如，游戏化的戒烟应用是否能长期保持用户参与，从而成功戒烟？

So for example, does the gamified quit smoking app keep users engaged long enough to successfully quit smoking?

这更多是关于确定哪些类型的游戏元素最有可能或最频繁地激发某种行为。

So this is more about identifying what kinds of game elements will most likely or most frequently motivate a behavior.

给予用户重复成功的成就是否足够，还是需要加入额外功能，比如频繁的反馈循环，以首先提升自我效能感等？

Will giving users achievements for repeated success be sufficient, or do you need to incorporate additional features like frequent feedback loops to improve things like self efficacy first?

在评估方面，游戏化研究可能经常使用诸如登录频率、完成任务数量、自我报告等指标。

In terms of evaluation, gamification studies might often use things like metrics, like login frequency, number of tasks completed, things like self reports.

你可能会问某人，在使用游戏化应用或干预措施之前，他们有多大动力参与这种行为。

You might ask someone, how motivated do you feel to engage in this behavior before having done the gamified app or gamified intervention.

然后在他们使用过该游戏化应用后再次询问，看看他们的动机是否发生了变化。

And then you ask after they've done that gamified app or application and see if their motivation has changed.

然后你可以控制其他条件，看看是否真的仅仅是游戏化成分推动了这些改变，还是存在其他变量在起作用。

You can then do things like control for other conditions to see if it's literally just that gamification component that is really driving these changes or if there might be some other variables at play.

这个我们之后可能也会谈到。

And that's something that we'll probably talk about later too.

但这类指标，你知道，就是试图衡量某人是否基于游戏化原则改变了动机，类似这样的指标，在严肃游戏中也可以使用。

But these kinds of metrics, you know, just trying to measure whether someone is changing their motivation based on a gamified principle, something like that, you can use this in serious games too.

不过还有其他指标我想讨论。

But there's other metrics that I'd like to talk about.

这些其他指标比如——哦不。

These other metrics are things like oh, no.

抱歉。

Sorry.

这些其他指标可能是某人是否真正获得了学习成效。

These other metrics might be whether someone is actually having learning gains.

所以你可以测量某人在玩过严肃游戏后是否有所学习。

So you can you can measure whether someone has learned after having played a serious game.

也许你的严肃游戏正在教导人们戒烟过程中会遇到的各种障碍。

Maybe your serious game is teaching someone about the the barriers that it takes to to quit smoking.

因此你可以在他们戒烟前询问这些障碍，让他们玩游戏，通过游戏过程他们可能会真正了解这些障碍，之后再次询问他们。

And so you might ask them about barriers before quitting smoking, have them play the game, and then through the gameplay, they might actually learn something about those barriers and then ask them again after.

严肃游戏具有游戏玩法，我认为这是严肃游戏与游戏化的主要区别之一。

Serious games have gameplay, which I think is one of the major differences between serious games and gamification.

当你设计一个游戏化应用或干预措施时，你是在尝试利用这些元素来实现特定目的。

When you're making a gamified app or intervention, you're you're trying to utilize those elements for the specific purpose.

但当你创建一个严肃游戏时，你是在创造一个完整的游戏。

But when you're creating a serious game, you're creating a whole game.

你会运用各种游戏机制。

You're using things like mechanisms.

你会融入主题元素。

You're incorporating themes.

你要确保游戏玩法在功能上能体现你为某项研究、项目或计划设定的目标，也就是你使用该游戏的目的。

You're making sure that your gameplay somehow functionally represents the goals that you have for the for whatever study, research, program that you're doing, that that you're using that game for.

你需要确保游戏的所有元素都与你的目标协调一致，并且适当地应用于你所设定的目标受众或场景中。

You need to make sure that that the game elements are all working cohesively with your goal and then also being applied appropriately to whatever audience or setting that you're you're placing your game in.

这是一个非常有趣的区分点，人们并不总是意识到：你可以给某物添加游戏元素，但这并不代表它就成为了一个游戏。

That's a really interesting distinction that people don't always think about is that you can add game elements to something, but that doesn't doesn't make it a game.

这仅仅意味着存在某种形式的参与或互动。

It just makes that that there there's some sort of engagement or interaction.

对吧？

Right?

因此，想到许多人在各种不同情境下都体验过游戏化，这确实很吸引人。

And so it is fascinating to think that a lot of people have experienced gamification, right, in probably all kinds of different context.

你可能也意识到，那就像是存在游戏元素一样。

And you can probably recognize that it's like there's game element.

思考这件事本身就很有趣，就像你知道的，森和我也是教师，虽然我更像是前职业了。

It's just such an interesting thing to think that it's like, you know, Sen and I are teachers as well, you know, me a bit more my former life.

甚至我们都知道，我想森你可能也有同感。

How even we know, I think, Sen, you probably feel the same way.

你忘了这就像，要完成一个完整的游戏还需要跨越那个巨大的鸿沟

You forget that it's like, oh, that giant leap still that it takes to get to a complete game

嗯

Mhmm.

而不是仅仅呈现为游戏元素的东西

Rather than something that presents as game elements.

对吧？

Right?

对

Right.

是的

Yep.

没错

Yeah.

我是说，共谋

I mean, cahoots.

对吧？

Right?

你知道吗？

You know?

仅仅设置一个小型排行榜。

Just having that little leaderboard.

令人惊讶的是，学生们会对这类事情如此投入。

It it is amazing how students will engage in that kind of thing.

我曾有一批学生，他们在第一学期同班，到了第二学期被分到不同班级，比如同一个专业的不同课程。

I had a set of students who were in the same section for, you know, semester one, and then they were in different sections in semester two, say they were in separate classes in the same program.

他们甚至要求我在不同班级间互相通报成绩，这样他们还能继续竞争。

And they made me, you know, announce their scores to each other in the different classes so they could still compete.

就像，保持

Like, keep

那种竞争动力，你总得有点追求。

that com you gotta have a drive of some kind.

比如，我能得到什么？

Like, what am I earning?

我在做什么？

What am I doing?

我能获得什么？

What am I gaining?

是啊。

Yeah.

有点好笑。

It's kinda funny.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

我想如果我们能让人们理解这一点，比如你用多邻国，对吧？

I think if we can maybe bring this home for people, If you use Duolingo, right?

多邻国是什么，乔德？

Duolingo is what, Joad?

它是一个严肃游戏还是游戏化应用？

Is it a serious game or is it gamification?

我认为是游戏化。

I think it's gamification.

我不认为多邻国里有多少游戏玩法。

I don't think that there's much gameplay in Duolingo.

我应当提到这里存在一个连续谱系，中间区域是纯粹的游戏。

And I should mention that there's a little bit of a continuum going on here where you kinda have just game in the middle.

然后越往两边，游戏元素或游戏玩法就越少，我应该说。

And then the further, you know, to one side or the other, you get fewer game elements or fewer gameplay, I should say.

抱歉。

Sorry.

游戏玩法减少了，但仍保留了游戏元素，并以不同方式应用这些元素。

You get fewer gameplay, but you still retain game elements, and you're applying those game elements in different ways.

所以在多邻国里，你会获得积分、徽章、奖励，以及完成目标行为后的成就。

So for Duolingo, you're getting points, badges, you know, rewards, achievements for completing your the desired behavior.

我认为这是游戏化设计的一个关键优势。

And this is a a key component that I think that makes gamification good.

我...我并不认为游戏化比严肃游戏更好或更差，但在激励方式上确实截然不同。

I I I don't I don't I don't think the gamification is is better or worse than serious games, but certainly very different in how it approaches motivation.

核心就在于获取那些积分。

It's it's really about earning those points.

奖励习惯养成。

Rewarding the habit.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Exactly.

你会反复打开那个应用，就为了获取那些积分。

You're gonna come back onto that, you're gonna come back onto that app, and you're gonna get those points.

你要达成那些成就。

You're gonna get that achieved.

因此，游戏化实际上依赖于胡萝卜方法——你想要那个胡萝卜，想要那些奖励，只要你持续参与，我们就会不断给你奖励。

And so, gamification really relies on the carrot method of you want that carrot, you want those rewards and we're just gonna keep giving you rewards if you keep coming back.

这种行为激励很棒，我认为通常适用于一次性行为或临时行为。一旦你开始试图让人反复不断地重复某个行为，那些奖励可能会逐渐失去效力。

Incentivizes behavior and that's wonderful I think usually for things like one time behaviors or temporary behaviors, as soon as you start trying to get someone to come back and repeatedly do the behavior over and over and over and over again, those rewards can kinda lose their potency.

如果你熟悉一些心理学研究（不一定是古老的，但肯定有些年头），有个原则叫过度合理化效应：当使用外在奖励（来自行为本身之外的奖励）时，人们可能会开始认为他们只是为了奖励才做这件事。

And so if you're familiar with maybe some, not necessarily ancient psychological research, but certainly a little bit older, there's a principle called the over justification effect where if you use extrinsic rewards, rewards that come externally to the actual thing itself, Individuals might start thinking that they're only doing the behavior for the reward.

他们在课堂上观察儿童绘画时发现了这一现象。

They found this in children drawing in class.

那些原本喜欢在课堂上画画取乐的孩子们，当他们开始因为画画而获得奖励时，除非继续得到额外奖励，否则就不再为乐趣而画画了。

Children who enjoyed drawing in class for fun, when they started receiving rewards for doing it, they stopped drawing for fun unless they still received that additional reward.

虽然这种现象并非在所有案例中普遍存在，但它确实在某些情况下会发生。

And so this isn't found for everyone across all cases, but this is certainly an effect that happens some of the time.

我们在使用游戏化设计甚至严肃游戏时需要谨慎，避免过度合理化——不要给人们过多其他奖励，确保我们真正希望促成的行为改变或知识获取不会因此受到削弱。

It's something that we just need to be careful about when we're using gamification or sometimes even serious games that we're not over justifying for people that we're not trying to give them too much of other rewards and that the behavior or knowledge change or whatever that we really want to see instantiated that that we're not taking away from that in some way.

那么在你看来，游戏化与严肃游戏在激励类型上的关键区别是什么？

So what in your opinion is the key difference between the types of motivation that you see more in gamification versus serious games?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是外在动机与内在动机的区别，在游戏化中，奖励是行为之外的外部激励。

I I think it is this extrinsic versus intrinsic type of motivation where, you know, the the rewards are extrinsic to the actual behavior in in gamification.

如果你执行了某个行为，就能获得奖励。

You get a reward if you do the behavior.

但如果你在现实世界中执行这个行为——比如你想在现实中彻底戒除某个习惯，而不是通过某个应用来做这件事——你是得不到额外积分的。

But if you do the behavior out in real in the real world, if you if you want to quit cold turkey in the real world and you're not doing this for some app or something else, you're not getting bonus points.

除了能改善自身健康外，你这么做不会获得任何额外奖励。

You're not you're there there's no additional reward for you to do that other than you're gonna improve your own health.

当然，改善健康本身就很棒，但没人会为此付钱给你。

Certainly, that's wonderful and great, but you're not getting paid to do it or anything like that.

这些额外奖励确实能推动人们朝正确方向前进。

Having those additional rewards can push people in the right direction, certainly.

但对于严肃游戏，我认为更侧重于内在动机。

But for serious games, I think it's more about intrinsic motivation.

关键在于让期望的结果——知识获取过程本身变得更有趣。

It's about making the desired outcome, the knowledge acquisition more fun to engage in in the first place.

通过在游戏中模拟行为，将其与机制或主题联系起来，希望能实际提升参与度或增强玩家在过程中的意义构建，使学习过程通过游戏体验变得更有意义。

By modeling a behavior in the game itself, connecting it to a mechanism or connecting it to a theme, hopefully, that actually increases increases engagement or increases some sort of meaning making that is happening for for the player, that by engaging in a game experience for someone that that the learning process is now somehow a little bit more meaningful.

这可以通过纯粹的趣味性实现，也可能是游戏环境中某些特殊设计能真正激发参与者的动力。

They and this can be happened through, you know, it's simply just fun or there's something special that happens in that game setting that that really energizes someone in that process.

那么在设计严肃游戏时需要考虑哪些因素？

What are then some of the things to consider when you're designing a serious game?

正如你所说，游戏化存在负面效应。

Because as you talked about, gamification has a negative.

本意是让外部激励转化为内部动力，但实际上可能产生相反效果，这很有趣。

The intent is that the extrinsic be that that external motivator becomes internal, whereas actually has potentially the effect of the opposite, which is fascinating.

那么对于严肃游戏类别的设计，应该采取什么方法或考虑哪些方面？

So what what are the approaches or what do you have to think about when trying to design something that falls into the serious game category?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Certainly.

重申一下，这并不意味着游戏化是坏事。

And and just to reiterate, it doesn't mean that gamification is bad.

只是说在设计游戏化活动时，我们需要额外小心一些。

It just means it's it's just an extra thing we have to be a little bit careful about when we're designing gamified activities, things like that.

不过，快速插一句，它确实可能被用于不良或邪恶目的。

Although, just a quick aside, it certainly can be used for for bad or for evil.

想想信用卡公司用积分系统鼓励你花更多钱。

Think of, like, credit card companies using point systems to encourage you to spend more money.

我们确实可能将游戏化用于邪恶目的。

Certainly, we can use gamification for for evil.

所以这是需要小心的地方。

And so just something to be careful about.

但回到你关于真正运用游戏设计原则的问题，特别是针对严肃游戏，我认为主要有四个组成部分。

But to your to your question about really using sorry, to your question to really about using game design principles, specifically for for serious games, I think about four main components.

这是预期的使用场景。

That is intended context.

所以要考虑你的目标玩家，你的受众，你希望谁来玩你的游戏？

So thinking about your target players, your audience, who do you want to play your game?

像场景设置也是预期使用场景的一部分。

Things like setting is also part of intended context.

你期望游戏在什么场景下被玩？

What setting do you expect your game to be played in?

那么你希望谁来玩你的游戏？

So who do you want to play your game?

在哪里玩？

Where?

比如，你是否希望这款游戏面向青少年——他们可能刚开始接触烟草之类的东西，而你想帮助预防初次尝试，那么你可能需要将游戏重点放在这个特定受众群体上。

Things like, do you want this to be for adolescents who who might start being exposed to things like tobacco and you would like to help prevent initiation, then you might be focusing your your game on that particular audience.

你可能需要把这个特定游戏场景主要设置在教室里，因为很难隐藏这个游戏的意图。

You might want to focus that that specific game probably in the classroom because it it's gonna be very hard to hide the intention of that game.

因此，那些只想作为业余桌游爱好者在游戏之夜玩这类游戏的人，试图说服人们不要开始吸烟，这对大多数人来说似乎不是一个特别有趣、吸引人的话题。

And so people that are who are just wanting to play this as a hobbyist type of board gamer doing this at at game night, something like trying to convince people to to not start smoking, that doesn't seem like a an overly fun, engaging topic for most people.

所以这可能必须是一款更具教育意义的游戏，真正在课堂上实施。

And so this might have to be a more educational game in which it's really being implemented in the classroom.

其他需要重点考虑的要素是目标设定。

Other components that are really important to consider are the objectives.

你需要设定游戏目标。

You have your game objective.

这是玩家想要完成并赢得游戏的内容。

This is the things that players want to to do, and and to win the game.

这些就是获胜目标和游戏目标。

These are the the win objectives, the game objectives.

但还有学习目标。

But there's also learning objectives.

这是你希望游戏能传递给受众的内容。

This is what you want your game to impart on your audience.

他们能从游戏中获得什么？

What do they get out of playing the game?

如果你能确保游戏目标和学习目标以某种方式匹配或一致，这将使你在整个游戏设计过程中轻松许多。

If you can make sure that both your game objective and the learning objective match or align in some way, it's going to make your job a lot easier when you go to the game design of the whole process.

这意味着需要认真思考主题、机制，以及如何将信息、技能或任何目标内容融入游戏主题中。

So this means, you know, really thinking about theme and and mechanisms and how you're going to incorporate either a message, a skill, whatever it is that your objective is, how does it get incorporated into the theme of the game?

如何将其融入游戏机制中？

How does it get incorporated into the mechanisms of the game?

我认为《精灵岛》可能是个很好的例子。

I think Spirit Island is probably a really good example of this.

虽然它与公共卫生无关，但我确实认为这是一款严肃的游戏。

It's not public health related, but certainly I do think that it's a serious game.

考虑到《精灵岛》的目标情境，我认为对于受众而言，它更适合作为桌游爱好者在常规桌游之夜的选择，也可能成为家庭游戏之夜的项目。

Thinking about the intended con context of a of Spirit Island, I think that for an audience, I do think it's actually more hobbyist board gamers in a setting in which they are probably playing at their standard board game night, you might get a family game night playing Spirit Island.

但就目标而言，我认为游戏目标是要把殖民者赶出你的岛屿。

But for in terms of objectives, I think the game objective is you gotta kick the colonists out of your out of your island.

这与学习目标相契合，即揭示18、19世纪等时期殖民化带来的种种问题。

And that matches with the learning objective that relates to how problematic colonization was during, you know, seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds, etcetera.

同时也反映出当今许多游戏在设计中对殖民主题的随意滥用，我认为这某种程度上是对这些理念的控诉。

But also now in terms of how many games incorporate colonization rather wantonly, haphazardly in game design now, and I think it's a kind of an indictment on some of those ideas.

因此《灵岛》的宗旨就是引导玩家思考——这是我们需要你们反思的问题，也是我们希望观众能亲身体验并理解殖民化真正含义的设计初衷。

And so thinking about how Spirit Island's objective to say that this is this is something we need you to think about, this is something that we want our audience to think about and have an experience about of what it means, what colonization means.

这个理念被天衣无缝地融入了游戏的主题与机制之中。

It is incorporated into both the themes and the mechanisms of the game pretty seamlessly.

这让我们进入最后一个环节：持续评估。

And that leads us to the final component, repeated evaluation.

无论是《灵岛》还是其他严肃游戏，我认为最关键的是确保试玩测试环节的参与者能代表目标受众群体。

I think both for Spirit Island, but for many serious games, I think one of the prime, most critical things that we need to really think about is making sure that we put our playtests, our our pilot games in front of people who are going to be representative of your audience.

比如我要为边缘群体设计解决特定问题的游戏，就必须确保试玩反馈来自该群体成员。

So if I'm making a game that's meant to help people from a marginalized background handle some issues, then I wanna make sure that I'm playtesting and getting feedback from people from that community.

我不应该只听取普通游戏小组的随机反馈。

I don't wanna just have my my random game group providing feedback on that.

我仍然可以这样做以确保游戏本身有趣且令人愉快，但当我想要确保我的信息能深入人心、真正被吸收，让人们在学习后确实有所改变或行为转变时，我必须切实考虑采用基于社区的参与式目标。

I could still do that to make sure that the game is still fun and enjoyable for people to play, but when I wanna make sure that my messages are hitting home, that they're actually being incorporated, that people are actually learning or or or changing behavior after, I need to really make sure that I'm I'm using some community based participatory goals in mind.

因此这些流程中，确保我们的社区真正参与其中至关重要。

So some of these procedures of really making sure that our community is engaged in that process.

身处设计街与公共卫生大道的交叉路口，关于严肃游戏，公共卫生从业者和教育者可能存在哪些常见误解？或者反过来，设计师们对这些严肃游戏又有哪些误解？

Living at that intersection of Design Street and Public Health Avenue, what are some common misconceptions about serious games that maybe public health practitioners and educators have or on the other side that designers have about these serious games?

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

幸好误解不算太多，但确实有几个顽固的误区我很乐意澄清。

Thankfully, there's not too many misconceptions, but there are a few that raise their ugly heads that I'm happy to address.

首先我认为，特别是严肃类桌游自七八十年代和九十年代以来已经取得了长足发展。

So I think that first, board games and and serious games specifically have progressed since the seventies, eighties, nineties.

我们设计的早已不是《数学冲击波》或《大富翁》这类游戏了。

We're not we're not designing Math Blaster or Monopoly anymore.

我们游戏中采用的机制、主题以及希望通过游戏实现的学习目标，这些都已经取得了进步。

The both the mechanisms that we use in our games, the themes we use, the and the kinds of learning objectives that we want to to impart through our games, those have progressed.

因此，在与从业者和游戏设计师交流时，从业者可能会联想到那些更古老的传统棋盘游戏，当我谈及现代棋盘游戏设计时。

And so talking to practitioners and and game designers alike, practitioners might think of these more older classic board games when when I when I talk about designing board games now.

而现在的游戏设计师，当我提到严肃游戏时，有些人会立刻想到那些老式的教育游戏，恕我直言，那些游戏确实很无聊。

And game designers now, when I talk about serious game, some of them immediately go to some of those older educational games that, you know, for lack of a better phrase, just they're just boring.

所以我认为一个主要的误解就是需要跨越这个障碍，努力展示这个领域自那时以来取得了多大的进步。

And so, you know, I think the that's a main misconception is really trying to to get over that hurdle and and try to show just how much the the field has progressed since then.

第二个我想谈的误解是，'严肃'并不意味着它必须一本正经。

And second one I really wanna talk about is that, you know, serious does not mean that it has to be serious.

你可以制作一个有趣的严肃游戏。

You can make a silly serious game.

但同样地，我认为这是一个完全合理的观点：有些人担心游戏会冲淡话题的严肃性。

But likewise, I and I think this is a totally fair argument is that some folks worry that games can dilute the seriousness of a topic.

通过制作涉及某些敏感话题的游戏，你可能会被认为不够体贴，甚至可能在这个问题上造成更多伤害。

So by making a game about some sort of sensitive topic that you are somehow being insensitive and overall maybe doing more harm in regards to that issue.

我认为这在一定程度上确实如此。

And I think that's actually true to some extent.

要知道，当你设计一款关于某个可能被忽视或边缘化群体的严肃游戏时，如果不咨询该群体的成员，不遵循社区参与原则，实际上可能会弊大于利。

You know, when you are designing a serious game about a maybe a group of people who may be under underrepresented or marginalized, if you don't consult people from that group, if you're not engaging in some of those community engaged principles, then you might actually be doing more harm than good.

我认为非常重要的一点是，当我们尝试用严肃游戏探讨严肃话题时，必须给予其应有的尊重和道德考量。

Think it's really important that when we when we try to address serious topics with serious games, that we're, you know, we're treating it with the the respect and and ethics that it deserves.

这是个举例说明的好时机，你觉得哪些案例成功实现了目标或效果显著？

You know, this is a good time for examples where you think something has been, you know, successful at what it's doing or something that's been effective.

比如是预防领域吗？

Like, is it prevention?

还是关于行为改变的？

Is it about behavior change?

或者其他什么领域，我们希望你能具体展开说说，你认为什么能代表这个领域的成功？

Whatever what other areas, you know, we'd love you to elaborate within, but, like, what do you think represents, success in this area?

完全同意。

Absolutely.

公共卫生确实往往会渗透到医疗保健领域，这正是我们看到大量严肃游戏、健康相关游戏实际应用的领域。

So, public health does tend to bleed into healthcare, and that's where we see quite a bit of serious games, health related games, is actually in healthcare.

我们看到很多这类游戏以模拟形式出现，特别是针对护理和医学生的模拟游戏。

We see a lot of that as simulation games, specifically for nursing and for medical students.

这些模拟游戏通常非常注重技能培养，确保学生有额外时间学习特定技能。

So these simulation games are often very skill based, making sure that students have additional time with learning specific skills.

如果你每天只有固定小时数在实习中练习某项技能，那么你可能还需要在课外额外练习这些技能。

So if you only have x number of hours in the day to to practice a skill in practicum, then you might still need additional hours practicing those skills outside of it.

虽然你可能无法获得使用针头等操作所需的确切灵活性训练，但护士们仍有机会通过这些游戏学习操作流程，或了解患者对不同治疗方式的偏好。

And while you might not get the exact dexterity training that you might need to use a needle or something like that, there's still going to be opportunities for nurses to learn the procedures for a skill or to learn the the various ways in which patients may want or not want certain procedures being done.

通过这类基于情景的游戏——几乎像角色扮演游戏，但仍保持模拟训练的核心——护士们可以获得实践经验。

And so by having these kinds of scenario based games in which nurses are it's almost kind of like a role playing game, but it's it's still still in its simulation focus.

这有点像熟悉度训练，或者说是一种前期准备性的接触。

It's kind of like a familiarity kind of thing or almost maybe exposure or early prep.

对吧？

Right?

你并没有实际操作，但现在你有了认知。

You're not doing it, but now you have an awareness.

百分之百正确。

A 100%.

是的。

Yes.

完全正确。

Exactly.

当然其他领域也有大量类似的游戏。

And there's certainly plenty of other games in other fields.

预防与治疗相关的游戏是一个重要领域。

So thinking about prevention and treatment is a huge one.

过去十年左右涌现了大量关于艾滋病预防、治疗和检测的游戏。

So there's a rash of games that came out in last ten or so years on HIV prevention and HIV treatment, HIV testing.

这些主要是基于手机应用的游戏，也有几款桌游和卡牌类游戏。

These are mostly mobile app based games, a couple of board game, a couple of card game related ones.

我认为尝试接触那些常规信息难以触达的受众，这简直是最酷的事情。

And I I just think that's the coolest thing ever to try to engage with a an audience that a lot of typical messaging has failed to do.

我想说得很清楚。

And I wanna be very clear.

如果一个群体难以触及，实际上是因为我们缺乏合适的工具来接触他们。

If a population is hard to reach, it's really about we don't have the right tools needed to reach them.

并非他们难以触及。

It's not that they're hard to reach.

只是我们不擅长接触他们。

We're just bad at reaching them.

因此我认为游戏，特别是在预防和治疗模式中，是尝试接触这些传统上难以触及群体的绝佳方式。

So I think that games, specifically in prevention and treatment modes, think is a great way to try to reach some of these traditionally hard to reach groups.

能否请你举一两个你认为优秀的游戏例子？比如在公共卫生相关严肃游戏中最顶尖、最具代表性的作品？

So can you give us an example or two of games that you might think are good, like best of class, best of show style, public health related serious games?

有哪些具体的游戏名称？

What are some titles?

很多公共卫生类游戏规模都比较小，通常只针对一两个研究课题。

So a lot of the public health games are gonna be a little bit small, often often one or two study focused.

虽然我可以列举大量不同的公共卫生游戏，但我觉得其中大多数都非常依赖具体情境。

And so while I could go through a plethora of different public health games, I think the majority of those are very context specific.

所以我认为对你们听众最有用的可能是那些适用范围更广的游戏。

And so some of the ones that I think that might be most useful for your audience is a little bit broader.

事实上，我认为《龙与地下城》就是个绝佳例子——它本不是为公共卫生设计的，却成了优秀的公共卫生游戏。

In fact, I think D and D is a great example of a public health game that was never really meant to be a public health game.

出乎意料的是，《龙与地下城》这款游戏在公共卫生领域效果极佳，能很好地实现我们期望的健康促进目标。

D and D surprisingly is a game that works really well for public health and some of the objectives that we want to see in terms of promoting health.

目前，《龙与地下城》正被心理健康从业者、治疗师、咨询师等应用于实际诊疗中。

D and D right now is being used with mental health practitioners, therapists, counselors, etcetera, in their practice.

他们通常会组织单人或多人的游戏环节，让患者通过实时游玩《龙与地下城》的体验，借助游戏机制帮助玩家（即患者）应对或处理他们正面临的心理问题。

They will typically have either solo or group sessions in which they're using D and D as a live play experience for their patients, and they will use that game structure to help the players, the patients manage or go through some of the issues that they're experiencing.

举个稍早的例子，曾有几位治疗师利用《龙与地下城》来辅助治疗恐惧症患者。

For example, this is a little bit of an older example, but there's a few therapists that used D and D to help with phobias.

例如，他们设计了强大到能击败巨型蜘蛛的角色，而患者本人可能患有蜘蛛恐惧症。

For example, they had characters who are really strong and powerful and could defeat your giant spiders, but the patient themselves may have had arachnophobia.

通过参与这种治疗性实践并在《龙与地下城》中游戏，患者得以与自我保持一定距离。

So by kind of engaging in the therapeutic practice and playing in D and D, was removed from the self a couple steps.

这有点像一种暴露疗法。

So there's a little bit of a type of an exposure therapy.

他们就是这样运用《龙与地下城》的。

And so they use D and D in that way.

但《龙与地下城》和其他角色扮演游戏已被以多种方式用于实践，帮助治疗自闭症相关问题，特别是为需要额外帮助的群体提升社交技能。

But D and D and other kinds of role playing games have been used in practice in a variety of different ways to help treat some issues around autism, particularly to enhance social skills among groups that are looking for that additional help.

并不是说自闭症患者必须需要这种帮助。

Not to say that people with autism must need that help.

当然，这是为寻求这种提升的个人准备的。

Certainly, it's for individuals that are looking for that kind of boost.

还有其他游戏也被使用。

There's also been other games.

我认为《Retain》是一个优秀的公共卫生模拟游戏范例，主要面向护士和医疗从业人员。

I think Retain is a great example of a public health simulation games usually for nurses and health care practitioners.

《Retain》是一款长期游戏，用户通过它学习婴儿复苏方法。

Retain is about it's long term game in which users learn resuscitation methods for infants.

因此它更像是一种培训项目，但采用了游戏形式。

And so they it's it's kind of like a training, program, but it's in game format.

通过玩这款游戏，他们能掌握各类复苏程序的操作顺序。

And so by playing this game, they are learning the order in which certain kinds of resuscitation procedures need to be made.

他们既学习流程步骤，也掌握这些步骤的执行顺序。

And so they're learning the processes and they're learning the order in which those processes need to be done.

当然他们仍需要实际操练，但这提供了基础知识储备。

Certainly they still need the actual practice, but it's providing that foundational knowledge.

因此我认为这是强化从业人员培训教育的绝佳方式，无论是医疗、心理健康还是公共卫生领域都能受益。

And so I think it's a great way to help bolster some of the training and education that practitioners, both healthcare, mental health, and public health can receive.

那么，我们现在提到的范围已经涵盖了从应用程序到个人活动等各种形式。

So, I mean, we've kind of now mentioned anything from apps to an individual, like, campaign.

对吧？

Right?

你能跟我们讲讲这个项目的规模和分发机制是如何运作的吗？

Can you tell us a little bit about how how does scale and distribution work for this?

在研究这个问题时，你们如何决定一款游戏应该在医疗领域的哪些场景中应用？

When you're looking into this, how do you choose where a game should almost be become present within the health field?

简单回应一下这个问题，我认为分发确实非常重要。

To briefly, try to respond to this one, I I do think that, distribution is really important.

所以要考虑目标受众和你想触达的社群。

So thinking about the audience, the community that you're you're trying to reach.

如果面向的是普通大众，那么成本和物流就会成为重要考量因素。

If you're you're just trying to reach a general audience, then, you know, thinking about cost and logistics is going to be a big piece.

如果制作实体桌游成本过高，开发移动端版本可能更合理。

And, you know, it might make sense to create a mobile app version of the of the game if you think that the cost of creating a board game is just gonna be too great.

这其中肯定需要权衡取舍。

There there's definitely going to be that trade off.

但如果你专注于一个非常特定的群体，那么分发实际上可以变得更具协作性——你可以与你的群体合作共同完成分发。

But if you're focusing on a very specific community, then the distribution can actually be a little bit collaborate you can collaborate with your community on the distribution.

再次强调，要朝着社区参与的方向推进。

So again, moving towards that community engaged piece.

如果你的群体正在寻找一款能帮助他们戒烟的桌游，那就与他们合作来推动这类分发。

If your community is looking for a game that helps them with a with with, you know, quitting smoking, then work with them to help that kind of distribution.

他们是否想要一款在特定场所容易获取的卡牌游戏？

Do they do they want a a card game that is easily accessible in in specific locations?

他们是否想要一款会出现在桌游专卖店的豪华版桌游？

Do they want a meteor board game that is going to be in hobby shops?

你的目标群体究竟在寻找什么？

Like, what is what is your community looking for?

我认为这能帮助你确定所要追求的规模和分发方式。

And I think that that can help, aim the kind of scale and distribution you're going to aim for.

你是否发现其中某些方法在试图观测可衡量的差异时，本身就存在优劣之分？

Do you ever find some of these methods actually are just inherently better or worse when you're actually trying to see a measurable difference?

是的。

Yes.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

这实际上非常有趣。

This is actually really interesting.

这是我在疫情前与Mary Flanagan和Tilfactor团队合作的一个项目。

This is a project that I worked on with Mary Flanagan and Tilfactor group pre pandemic.

他们为同一款游戏制作了两个不同版本。

So they created two different versions of the same game.

这款游戏叫《Pox拯救人民》。

This game is Pox Save the People.

虽然是疫情前的作品，但游戏主题是说服人们更愿意为孩子接种疫苗。

This is pre pandemic, but it was a game about, trying to convince people to want to vaccinate their kids more.

这款游戏的双重趣味在于——它既将主题信息融入游戏背景，又将核心信息巧妙地嵌入了玩法机制中。

And so in this game, you the this is this is both really interesting because it fits with both, incorporating the message into themes and incorporating the message into the mechanics.

在游戏中，每个回合你有几个行动可以选择。

In the game, you had a few actions on your turn.

在你的回合中，你可以选择为多人接种疫苗，或者治疗一名已患病的患者。

You could, on your turn, vaccinate several people or treat one person that already has a disease.

而在回合之间，疾病会传播并感染更多人。

And then in between turns, the disease would spread and infect more people.

这是个合作类游戏。

This is a collaborative game.

两到四位玩家需要共同协作，尽可能为更多人接种疫苗。

So, you know, two, three, four players work together, to try to vaccinate as many people as you could.

如果棋盘上存在免疫力低下者——也就是易感人群——患病，游戏就会失败。

If someone with who is immunocompromised on the board, a vulnerable person that was on the board got sick, you lost the game.

因此你们需要创造群体免疫效应。

So you need to create a herd immunity effect.

这个游戏就是在教授群体免疫的概念。

And so it's teaching herd immunity.

游戏主题是关于疫苗接种，其机制实质上是防止这种负面棋盘状态——即疾病的传播。

The theme is about vaccinating people, and the mechanisms are literally preventing a spread of this negative board state, this disease.

所有这些元素共同作用，形成了一个真实而连贯的画面。

And so all of these things are working together to create a real cohesive picture.

分发方式中有趣的部分在于，游戏玩法的一个有趣特点是同时存在线上和线下两种版本。

Interesting component of the distribution method, the interesting component of the way in which the the game is being played is there is a online version and an in person version.

当人们玩这款游戏的实体桌游版本时，相比数字iPhone版本，他们更有可能获胜。

And when people played the in person analog board game version of this game, they are more likely to win than playing the digital iPhone version.

他们仍在同一个房间里，玩的仍然是同一款游戏。

So they were still in the same room, still playing the same game.

只是一个版本是在iPad上运行，另一个是实体版本。

It was just one was on a an iPad and one was a analog version of it.

而当他们玩实体版本时，获胜几率更高。

And they're more likely to win when they played the analog version.

研究发现玩家们在玩实体版本时交流更为频繁。

They found that they players spoke more frequently.

他们在实际玩这个实体版本游戏时，会更频繁地进行策略规划。

They they they strategized more frequently when they were actually playing the game in this analog version.

所以我认为，信息以实体形式呈现的方式与数字形式呈现或接收的方式之间存在值得探讨的差异。

So I think that there's something to be said for the way in which messages are presented in an analog format versus the way in which messages are presented or heard in a digital format.

从实际出发，你认为公共卫生、医疗保健这些信息——比如我们讨论的疫苗接种等——在设计中哪个环节最合适？

Practically, where do you find that the message of public health, health care, you know, any of the things we're talking about here, vaccinations, whatever, where does it fit best in the design?

是更适合融入主题设定、游戏机制，还是两者兼顾？

Does it fit better in the theme, the mechanism, or both?

能否给我们举些实际案例，说明设计师与医疗从业者——特别是公共卫生从业者——具体是如何合作的？

And can you give us like some real practical examples of where designers and health care practitioners, public health practitioners specifically, are are coming together?

我认为理想答案是主题和机制两者兼顾。

I think the answer is ideally both theme and mechanisms.

我们需要将健康信息、公共卫生信息同时融入主题设定和游戏机制中。

I think we need to incorporate health messages, public health messages into both themes and mechanisms.

我们可以用POX作为例子——毕竟我们刚刚讨论过它。

We can use POXs as an example since we were just talking about it.

在将公共卫生信息真正融入主题方面，这个案例的主题是确保人们接种疫苗、预防疾病传播。

So in terms of really incorporating public health message into the theme, the theme is in in this instance, it's about, you know, making sure that that people are are getting vaccinated, that the disease is being prevented.

甚至还有个僵尸版本。

There's even a zombie version of this.

如果想探讨更多主题，可以制作2通过制作僵尸版本来增加趣味性和参与度，比如预防僵尸爆发、僵尸痘疫情。

So if we wanna talk about additional themes, you can make it a little bit more fun and engaging by making a zombie version and preventing a a zombie outbreak, a zombie pox.

因此我认为主题至关重要，因为它能吸引玩家参与。

And so I think the theme is critical because it's going to bring your players in.

它将使你的玩家和观众更感兴趣，更投入于你试图传达的任何信息。

It's going to make your players, your audience more interested, more invested in whatever message you're trying to deliver.

不过机制也极为重要，因为它有助于模拟你希望观众学习到的理想行为和知识。

The mechanism is really important though because it's going to help hopefully model the desired behavior, desired knowledge that you want your audience to learn.

如果我们试图教导人们关于群体免疫的知识，那么机制可以是：'嘿，我刚刚阻止了疾病传播，因为我已经为这个区域的许多人接种了疫苗。'

And so if we're trying to teach people about herd immunity, then the mechanism of, hey, I just stopped the disease from spreading because I have vaccinated so many people in this space.

疾病再也无法传播了。

The disease cannot spread anymore.