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再次回归，神学播客。
Back once again, theology podcast.
在桌游展上重新评估桌游优点的利与弊。
The pros and cons to reattribute board game pros at board game conventions.
我们开始吧。
Let's go.
欢迎各位。
Welcome everybody.
我们又回来了，带来另一期《利与弊》。
We're back here with another episodes of pros and cons.
我是桑德，正在参加2024年Gen Con，为Ludology录制节目。
It is sand and I'm at gen con twenty twenty four recording for Ludology.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
我应该干脆把这档播客更名为《与克里斯汀重聚》，因为我们这里邀请到了我们在2023年Origins展上最早采访过的《利与弊》嘉宾之一。
I should just rename this podcast to catching up with Kristen because we are here with one of our first pros and cons interviewee from origins twenty twenty three.
她是克里斯汀·马。
It's Kristen Ma.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
所以告诉我，自从我们上一次聊天以来，过去一年零两个月里发生了什么？
So tell me, what's been going on in the last year and two months since we last, like, had an had a talk talk?
天哪。
My goodness.
过去一年发生了很多事情。
A lot has happened in the last year.
对吧？
Right?
两个月。
Two months.
让我们来看看。
So let's see.
上次我在这里的时候，我们谈到了老虎游戏。
We last time when I was on, we talked about the tiger game.
哦，我们之前谈过老虎游戏。
Oh, we had talked about the tiger game.
是的。
Yeah.
你玩过吗？
And you had played it?
是的。
Yes.
我
I
玩过。
did.
没错。
That's right.
你第一次玩这个游戏。
You played it for the first time.
所以我签了这个游戏。
So I signed that game.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我觉得，就在几周前刚公布了。
And it just got announced, I think, a couple weeks ago.
是的。
Yes.
带着羡慕吗？
With envy
诞生的？
born?
羡慕诞生。
Envy born.
这将是他们接下来的
It's gonna be the next one in their
小游戏。
Small game.
小型游戏系列。
The tiny game series.
是的。
Yeah.
我之前还宣布了一款名为《龙战士》的游戏，没错。
I there was another announcement for a game called Dragon Warriors that I Right.
这是和阿德里安一起设计的。
Designed with Adrian.
阿德里安。
Adrian.
是的。
Yeah.
不过那款游戏也不会明年就登陆众筹平台。
Although that won't come to Kickstarter till next year either.
《昆虫馆》即将发布。
Insectarium is coming out.
就是我看到的那款，我真的、真的特别喜欢昆虫。
That's the one I saw that I really, really well, I love insects.
对吧？
Right?
虫子就是我的最爱。
Bugs are bugs are my thing.
我喜欢虫子。
I like bugs.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这个项目将在九月登陆Kickstarter。
So that one's coming out to Kickstarter in September.
好的。
Okay.
那这个由谁来发行？
And who's publishing that one?
Snowbrite。
Snowbrite.
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
所以Snowbrite Envy Born，那个有Adrian参与的是由谁发行的？
So Snowbrite Envy Born, and who's publishing the one with Adrian?
Daywalker Syndicate。
Daywalker Syndicate.
他们是一家新成立的发行商，好的。
They're a newer publisher Okay.
来自佛罗里达。
Out of Florida.
酷。
Cool.
是的。
Yeah.
那是个挺有意思的名字。
That's an interesting name.
他们是吸血鬼之类的吗？
Are they, like, vampires or something?
他们真的很热衷于构建自己的世界。
It's they really are into sort of creating their worlds.
好的。
Okay.
为他们的游戏构建世界。
Their worlds for their games.
好的。
Okay.
但不一定非得是吸血鬼。
But not necessarily vampires.
他们的第一款游戏叫《Wild Realms》，讲的是动物之间的战斗，是的。
Their first game is called was wild realms, and it was about animals battling Yeah.
我做过
I did
看那个。
see that one.
是的。
Yeah.
所以啊。
So yeah.
所以发生了很多事。
So lots has happened.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
那你生活中最近怎么样？
And what's happening for you just in in life?
嗯，让我想想。
Well, let's see.
很多事。
Lots.
我试着在设计上投入了更多时间。
I've tried to put in a lot more time into designing.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我，
I,
你知道，我 homeschool 我的三个孩子。
you know, I so I homeschool my three kids.
我们上一次聊过这个。
We talked about that last time.
他们还好吗？
So they're doing okay?
是的。
Yeah.
一切都很好。
Everything's good.
我们继续在家上学。
We're continuing to homeschool.
是的。
Yeah.
到目前为止，还没有人要求离开。
Nobody's asked to leave yet
直到……哦，孩子们。
until Oh, the kids.
我以为你在说你自己的事。
I thought you were talking about you.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
不行。
No.
我不能离开。
I can't leave.
但那方面的情况还不错，所以我正在尽量在白天有空的时候多花点时间做设计，合理安排时间。
But things are going well with that, and then I I'm trying to put in more time, you know, into designing during the day when I can and fitting it in.
如果没有学校活动、课外活动或家务事，我就会做设计相关的工作。
If there's no school activities or outside activities or things with the house, I'm working on design stuff.
对。
Right.
孩子们平时参加什么户外活动或课外活动呢？
What do the kids do for outdoor activities for, like, extracurricular?
让我想想。
Let's see.
我儿子，我最大的孩子，还有我中间的女儿，都在参加童子军。
So my son, my oldest, and then my middle daughter are doing Cub Scouts Mhmm.
今年。
This year.
有个游戏设计的童军徽章。
There's a game design scouting badge.
你知道吗？
Did you know that?
一个技能徽章？
A merit badge?
因为我实际上做过那个讲解？
Because I actually did the The talk?
去年我为我儿子的童军团做过那个讲解。
The talk for that one for my son's troop last year.
挺不错的。
Pretty nice.
是的。
Yeah.
那很棒。
Which was great.
大家都非常喜欢。
Everybody seemed to really like it.
所以，是的，他们参加童子军活动，而我的两个女儿，最小的和中间的那个，喜欢骑马。
So but, yeah, they do scouting, and then my two daughters, my youngest and my middle child, like to ride horses.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
你是一匹马。
You're a horse.
我是个马术爱好者。
I'm a horse person.
你是喜欢马的人。
You're horse person.
我以前是喜欢马的人。
I was a horse person.
所以他们就这样做。
So they do that.
然后我儿子今年也开始上一所野外学校。
And then my son is also starting this year a wilderness school.
这是一周有一天，他们出去，他整天都在户外，学习野外技能。
It's like one day a week where they go and he's outside all day and they're doing like wilderness skills.
对。
Right.
那这是只在夏天才有，还是会一整年都进行？
And So is that, like, is that something only in the summer or is it will that go on throughout the whole year?
一整年。
All year.
所以，我是说冬天，毕竟是在印第安纳州，肯定会是
So it's, like, winter I mean, it's Indiana, so it'll be
肯定会是
It'll be
冬天就是冬天。
winter's winter.
冬天，但他们一整天都得在外面，他完全爱上了这种生活。
Winter, and but they have to be outside all day, and he's he's totally into that.
他喜欢，你知道的，待在户外。
He loves, you know, outside being outside.
太棒了。
The best.
对。
Right.
但他们现在已经进行到哪一步了？
But are they already up to?
他喜欢生存技能这个概念。
The idea of survival skills, he likes that.
是的。
Yeah.
所以童子军、生存技能、骑马，这些有没有激发什么游戏创意？
So Cub Scouts, survival skills, riding, any of that sparking any game
想法？
ideas?
我一直都是个马术爱好者。
I would so I have been a horse person my whole life.
对。
Yeah.
我现在不太做了，但我很希望围绕这个领域做一款游戏，因为我对它太了解了。
I don't really do it anymore, but I would love to create a game about that world because I know so much about it.
对。
Yeah.
马术比赛的世界，还有所有那些东西。
The world of horse shows and all of that.
而且实际上，那个龙游戏，是的。
And and actually so the dragon game Yep.
我和阿德里安做的那个游戏，最初是关于马术比赛的。
That I did with Adrian was originally a horse show.
比如，你训练你的马参加比赛，经历各种流程。
Like, you're training your horses for competition and going through everything.
那谁提出的这个点子呢？
And then who pitched it?
其实没人对这个特别感兴趣。
Nobody was really super interested in that.
它太具体了。
It was a little too specific.
所以我做过一个叫《幻想马场》的游戏。
So I worked on a game called Fantasy Horse Ranch.
嗯嗯。
Uh-huh.
而且实际上，我认为它在当时的表现还不错。
And it actually, I think, did well for for what it was.
我没有设计它。
Didn't design it.
我只是和这家公司一起开发了它，这家公司就像你一样，都是热爱马的人。
I just developed it with the company, and it was a company who was like, you know, like you, like people who were horse people
来自，比如，
from, like,
世代养马的家庭，所有人都喜欢马，他们想出版一款关于马的游戏。
long time family, everybody into horses, and they wanted to publish a game about horses.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我不确定他们现在在做什么，但你过会儿给我打电话，我们再联系。
So I'm not sure what they're doing now, but give me a call later and we'll we'll link you up.
因为我觉得，所有这些稍微小众的兴趣领域，嗯。
Because I I think I think all of these things that are kinda, like, niche areas of interest Mhmm.
但如果没人好好提供相关的东西，它们就得不到满足。
But if they're not well served by, you know, stuff that people can get for it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
如果这方面没有其他选择，为什么不自己做一个呢？
Like, if there's no other gains for this, why not make one?
为什么
Why
不做一个呢？
not have
一个呢？
one?
是的。
Yeah.
尤其是因为你知道，Fanny's Horse Ranch 这款游戏是一款大盒装游戏。
Especially because they you know, the Fanny's Horse Ranch game was like a big box game.
它的大小大概和《车票之旅》差不多。
It was maybe about the size of, like, Ticket to Ride.
好的。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
那么，如果有一款小型卡牌游戏呢？
And so, like, what if there's a little card game?
你知道的。
You know?
现在你有了更多可售的产品，这些其他类型的游戏可以满足不同价格区间的需求，对吧？
What are these these other types of games that you can now you have more stuff to sell, right, at different price points.
我觉得非常重要的是，不能只靠这一个产品。
I think it's really important that, you know, there's not only this one thing.
有好几款不同价位的产品，这样人们可以随时入手，或者为朋友、亲人、孩子购买。
There's, like, several things at different price price points so people can jump in or buy these things for their friends or their loved ones or children.
我希望你爱你的孩子。
I hope you love your children.
你知道的，不同层次都有。
You know what At different levels.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且，这个主题对我来说会是一个充满热情的项目。
Well and so that theme would would be a passion project for me.
我真希望有一天能推出一款以马术为主题的遊戲。
I would love to have a horse themed horse show themed game at some point.
你甚至可能让你的女儿们参与进来，帮你一起做。
You might even get your girls to, like, buy in and help you
当他们在进行游戏测试时。
as they're playtesting you.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
我让我的孩子们测试所有东西。
I make my kids playtest everything.
我的意思是，这是学习的一部分。
Well, I mean, it's part of learning.
这是他们教育的一部分。
It's part of their education.
没错。
That's right.
我知道。
I know.
去了解整个开发过程等等。
To see the whole process of development and everything.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
这很酷
That's cool.
上次我们聊天时，你提到那个鲨鱼游戏即将发布。
Now when we last talked, you had had the shark game coming out.
嗯
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
那个游戏是通过谁发布的？
And who was that through a game?
迪茨基金会。
Dietz Foundation.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
所以Dietz基金会是一个帮助将游戏引入学校的基金会，嗯。
And so the Dietz Foundation is a foundation Mhmm.
帮助将游戏引入学校。
That helps put games into schools.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
你能
Can you
再多告诉我一些关于这个的情况吗？
tell me a little bit more about that?
当然。
Sure.
所以据我所知，他们是唯一一家非营利性的游戏发行商，对吧。
So they're as far as I know, they're the only nonprofit game publisher Right.
他们通过游戏获得的资金，通常都会重新投入奖学金和其他将游戏引入学校的途径，好的。
That exists, and they the money that comes in that they get through games, they usually it goes right back out into scholarships and ways to get other games into schools and Okay.
需要这些学习环境的地方。
Learning environments where they're needed.
你对其中的教育部分真的感兴趣吗？
And is is that something that you are, like, really interested in is the educational component of it?
是也不是。
Yes and no.
我最初设计游戏时，是因为我家孩子在进行家庭教育，我想用游戏来传递知识，对吧。
I when I originally started designing games, I had started for my kids because we were homeschooling, and I, you know, I tried to use games as a way to present information Right.
以教育的方式。
Educationally.
因为这是实现这一点的绝佳方式。
Because it's a great way to do that.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
而且，你知道，游戏教育运动的一部分，这尤其在家庭教育者中很流行。
And, you know, part of that game school movement, I mean, that's that's big, especially with homeschoolers.
所以，是的，我仍然对游戏中的教育充满热情。
And so, yes, I am still excited about education in games Right.
尤其是为我自己的孩子。
Especially for my own kids.
但随着我设计和开发越来越多的游戏，这一点已经稍微被搁置了。
But as I am designing more and developing more, that has fallen a bit by the side.
当然。
Sure.
这是允许的。
It's allowed.
是的。
Yeah.
所以
So
就家庭教育而言，游戏有市场吗？
in terms of homeschooling, is there a market there for games?
哦，当然有。
Oh, yeah.
我觉得有。
I think so.
我的意思是，我参与了游戏化教育运动
I mean, like I was the game school movement
这整个就是一个现象。
is a whole thing.
因为你本身就是其中一员。
You because you're part of it.
你该如何接触或利用这个市场呢？
How would you access that or tap into that market?
说实话，我不知道。
You know, I don't know.
这答案太糟糕了，对吧？
That's a horrible answer, isn't it?
确实是。
It is.
但如果你真的知道呢？
But what you what if you did know?
如果我真的知道呢？
What if I did know?
我的意思是，我觉得主要还是靠口碑传播。
I mean, I feel like I would just it's mostly word-of-mouth.
是吗？
Would Is it?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，Facebook上的群组，嗯。
I mean, groups on Facebook Mhmm.
你知道的，我也是这些群组的成员。
You know, I'm a part of those.
所以每当有人有关于……的问题，他们就可以在游戏学校群组里发帖。
And so anytime anybody has a question about, you know, they can post in the game school group.
教这个内容会比较好？
What would be good to teach this?
对。
Right.
很多时候，别人会给出答案。
And a lot of times people have answers for it.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我觉得这是个不错的起点。
And so I think that would be a good place to start.
有家庭教育博览会。
There are homeschool conventions.
我其实从来没去过，但那里会出售课程和其他相关产品。
I've actually never been to one, but that's where they sell curriculums and things like that.
也可能是个不错的起点。
Could be a good place to start as well.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
你有没有想过专门为这个市场开发游戏？
And have you ever thought about making games specifically for that market?
不一定，实际上。
Not necessarily, actually.
有意思。
I Interesting.
因为当我刚开始的时候，主要是为我的孩子们做游戏。
Because when I started, it was mostly games for for my kids.
对。
Like Right.
并没有打算出版或做类似的事情。
Didn't have any intention of publishing or anything like that.
但确实，这很棒，是的。
But, yeah, it's it's great for Yeah.
我只是觉得
I just think
我只是觉得这是一个远未被充分开发的领域。
I just think it's a vastly untapped area.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
而且很多人迫切需要教学内容，因为他们自己可能已经没什么新点子了。
And and and a lot of the people are hungry for curriculum because they're like, they might be running out of ideas themselves.
确实。
True.
而且我觉得，像Gen Con这样的展会上，人们通常会避免把游戏贴上教育的标签。
Well and I think too, you know, games that you would find convention like Gen Con tend to steer away from having that educational label.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就像是，这个
It's like, this is
是教育游戏，因为很多被标为教育类的游戏，其实。
an educational game because a lot of the ones that you find that are labeled as educational Yeah.
不太怎么样。
Not so good.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
或者一般来说也不怎么样。
Or that good in general.
所以，是的，我认为确实存在一个交汇点，那就是既有乐趣又具教育意义的游戏。
And so, yes, I think there is a place where those can come together where it's you know, you've got fun games that are also educational.
因此，我的很多早期游戏都试图稍微弥合这一差距。
And so a lot of my first games, I sort of tried to bridge that a little
嗯，有点。
bit Mhmm.
我想是因为鲨鱼，这属于生物学范畴，我们甚至在规则书的背面列出了它需要满足的各州教育标准，对吧。
I guess because sharks, that's a biology based like, we even have a list in the back of the rule book of the state standards that it needs Right.
针对美国的课程。
For The US curriculum.
而且
And
我认为这真的很重要，就是要不仅提供工具，还要向人们展示这个工具可以应用在哪些地方。
I think that's really an important thing, right, is having having not only the tool, but showing people where that tool can be applied.
对吧？
Right?
所以，有这些州课程标准，有可以下载的教学计划之类的，所有这些东西。
So having that state standard curriculum, having lesson plans that you can download or whatever, all that kind of stuff.
我觉得应该有这么一个人，但不是我。
I think that I just think there's somebody and it's not me.
我做不到这些。
I can't do that.
不行。
No.
但应该有人在做这类事情，而且我觉得确实有人在做。
But there should be somebody who is doing that kind of stuff, and and I think there are.
所以我知道，比如海伦娜·卡佩尔，她也是一名教师，嗯。
So I know that, like, Helena Cappell, who's also a teacher Mhmm.
她的公司‘Kids Table Board Game’，如果我没记错的话，已经做过一些事情，让其他老师围绕特定的游戏开发课程。
Her company, Kids Table Board Game, if I'm not mistaken, have done a few things where other teachers have come and made, like, curriculum around a specific game.
所以这不是一个专门为教学设计的游戏，但他们使用海伦娜公司发布的游戏来教授某一门学科，比如数学，当然。
So it's not a game that's made to teach, but they use the game that Helena's company publishes to teach a subject, like teach mathematics or Sure.
科学、历史或者其他任何科目。
Science or history or whatever.
我觉得这也大有潜力。
I think there's a lot of potential in that as well.
是的。
Yep.
你知道那个网站吗，比如
Do you know the site like
教师付费给教师？
teachers teachers paying teachers?
支付教师。
Pay teachers.
对。
Yep.
做。
Do.
就是这种类型的事情。
Like, that kind of thing.
比如，
Like,
我觉得如果能为在家上学的家庭开发一种产品，专门依据州立课程标准，通过游戏来教学，这些游戏可以是打印即用型，或者他们可以轻松制作或购买一套工具包，里面包含三到四个游戏，用于在不同年级教授这些内容，那将会非常出色。
I think there's something there where, you know, if you could come up with something specifically for homeschoolers that taught the curriculum to the state standard, that used games, that were maybe print and play or something they can make easy or buy, like, a kit, and here's, like, like, three or four games that you can use to teach these things at these levels, I think that'd be brilliant.
是的。
Yeah.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是不知道该怎么做。
I just don't know gonna do it.
也。
Too.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
但也要有趣的游戏。
But also fun games.
不是那种教育类游戏，
Not not like educational games,
例如。
for example.
是的。
Yeah.
我的孩子不想玩那些。
My kids don't wanna play those.
嗯，我觉得
Well, I think
他们我想玩它们。
they I wanna play them.
不。
No.
而且作为老师，我也不太想玩这些游戏。
And and and me as the teacher, I wouldn't wanna play them over really either.
一个好的
A good
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游戏。
game.
是的。
Yes.
它附带的学习属性是次要的。
The fact that it has learning attached to it is secondary.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
这正是学习真正发生的方式。
Which is how learning really happens.
对吧？
Right?
如果你被迫学习某样东西，比如，每个人都抵触这种做法。
If you're forced to learn something, like, everybody box against that.
如果你被强迫去做，你是不会记住的。
You won't retain it if you're forced into it.
是的
Yeah.
或者至少会更难一些。
Or at least it's harder to.
对。
Yeah.
这不会那么自然地发生。
It doesn't come as naturally.
对吧？
Right?
所以我认为，当人们通过玩乐和享受来学习，之后再进行复盘时，你会记得你当时做了什么吗？
So I think when people are learning through having fun and enjoying and then you have like the debrief session later, you remember when you did this?
嗯。
Mhmm.
这就像自然界中的这种情况，或者生活中的这种情况，或者在银行里的这种情况
That's just like this in nature or this in life or this at the bank or
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗，当你做饭时，食物中发生的反应也是同样的类型，或者
You know, when you're cooking, it's the same type of reaction that's happening in the food or
你教的任何东西。
whatever you're teaching.
我不知道你教什么。
I don't know what you're teaching.
有时候你甚至不需要提出来。
And sometimes you don't even have to bring it up.
孩子们会主动来找我。
The kids will come to me
那更好了。
That's even better.
问题。
Questions.
他们
They
做出这个逻辑上的跳跃。
make that logical leap.
对吧？
Right?
而这就是，你知道的，好上一百倍，嗯。
Between And that is, you know, a 100 times better Mhmm.
当他们自己提出问题的时候。
When they come up with the question themselves.
所以
So
让我们跳过教育这部分吧，因为我们经常聊这个。
let's move past the education part because we talk about that a lot.
那你接下来有什么计划？
But what is next for you?
所以你已经签了一堆游戏。
So you've got a bunch of games signed.
是的。
Mhmm.
还有一堆游戏即将推出。
A bunch of games coming out.
你有一个小游戏。
You got a tiny game.
你有一个中等规模的游戏。
You got a game that's kinda mid mid range Mhmm.
规模上。
In size.
你接下来的目标是什么？
What what are you what's the aspiration for the next year?
所以当我们展望2025年时，还有一些追赶的工作。
So when we do 2025, there's some catch up.
会发生什么？
What's gonna happen?
你打算告诉我什么？
What are you gonna tell me?
嗯，希望我能告诉你，我另外签了一些游戏。
Well, hopefully, I'll tell you that I have some other games signed.
我的意思是，这总是那种梦想。
I mean, that's always sort of the dream.
我一直在不断开发很多点子，并尝试与几位其他联合设计师合作。
I'm continuing to just develop a lot of ideas and trying to work with several other co designers.
我目前正处于这个过程中的一个小阶段。
I'm sort of in the process of that a little bit.
是的。
Yep.
所以，这个梦想就是持续推出新作品，不断打磨技艺，并在这个过程中提升自己。
And so that's sort of the dream is just to continue putting things out and and honing the craft and and making myself better in the process.
跟我说说那个。
Tell me about that.
你所说的磨炼技艺是什么意思？你如何能比现在变得更好？
Tell me what do you mean by honing the craft, and how can you be better than you are already?
天哪。
Oh my goodness.
我的意思是，我真的想稍微挑战一下自己。
I mean, I really want to stretch myself a little bit.
好的。
Okay.
到目前为止，我的很多游戏都比较轻松。
I you know, so far up to this point, a lot of my games have been very light.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它们主要围绕收集卡牌之类的机制展开。
You know, they revolve around a lot of set collection, things like that.
我想尝试一些更复杂的桌游，当然。
And I want to sort of explore heavier games Sure.
我也想探索一些我平时不会主动选择的机制，嗯，好吧。
And also different mechanisms that I wouldn't normally gravitate towards that I can sort of Okay.
拓展自己。
Stretch
所以你是打算暂停收集类机制吗？
my So are you putting up like a moratorium on on-site collection?
你是在这么做吗？
Is that what you're doing?
不是。
No.
但我确实想这么做，因为这正是我擅长的领域。
But I would like to because that's kind of what I'm comfortable with.
而且我觉得我在这方面做得很好。
And I think that I I I think that I do that well.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
但我希望尝试拓展我在不同方面的技能，而且
But I want to just try to expand my abilities in in different And
你是否有意给自己设定一些限制？
are you intentionally making any, like, putting any constraints on yourself?
我确实如此，因为我几周前刚和另一位共同设计师开始合作，他们有个想法，我们就一直继续下去了。
I am well, so I started with another co designer just a few weeks ago, and we started you know, they had an idea, and so we just kept going with it.
在一次会议中，我们就只是在讨论它。
In one session, we were just, like, talking about it.
做这个，这个，这个，这个，还有这个。
Do this, this, this, this, and this.
你想从什么机制开始？
What mechanism do you wanna start with?
我们从骰子放置开始吧。
Let's start with dice placement.
对。
Right.
我以前从来没做过任何关于Sure的事情。
I've never done anything with Sure.
骰子放置。
Dice placement before.
我们打算怎么做呢？
How do we wanna do that?
然后就这样继续下去了。
How and so it just sort of continued.
有另一个人可以讨论想法真的很有帮助，因为我自己做的时候很容易钻牛角尖。
And having that other person to bounce the ideas off of is is so helpful because I can get so lost in my own head when I'm doing it by myself.
我会想，这根本行不通。
And I'm like, well, this would never work.
我做不到这个。
I can't do this.
我知道，我非常怀疑，哦。
I you know, I'm very doubtful Oh.
但同时，当我独自尝试时。
At the same time when I'm trying to do it on my own.
所以，不，不是限制，而是和他人合作，尝试获得新的视角，对。
So, no, not necessarily constraints, but just working with others and trying to get new perspectives and Right.
做事的方式，解决问题的方法。
Ways of doing things, ways of solving problems.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yes.
所以
So
那么，如果你有一个弱点，或者说，对你来说有什么游戏中的致命弱点，会是什么？
And so if you had, like, one weakness, if there's, like, a game kryptonite for for you, what would it be?
大概是
Probably
我知道，我经常思考这个问题。
knowing I I think about this a lot.
我不知道自己的游戏是否有趣。
I don't know when my own games are fun.
我觉得很多人其实都有这个问题。
I think a lot of people actually have that problem.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我是认真的。
I'm serious.
我经常听到这种说法。
I hear that a lot.
我只是觉得，因为我离这个过程太近了。
It's just I feel because I'm so close to the process of it.
然后我就想，好吧。
And I'm like, okay.
我知道这个可行，这个能在这里发挥作用。
Well, I know this works and this can do this and function here.
但我并不知道他们在做这件事的时候是否真的开心。
But I don't know if anybody is having a good time while they're doing it.
对。
Right.
他们真的玩得开心吗？
Are they actually having fun?
答案是，我不知道。
And the answer is like, I don't know.
我怎么知道呢？
How do I know that?
所以我要让别人来玩一下，试试看。
That's why I have to have somebody else play it and and try it out.
我的意思是，这确实是其中一部分。
Well, I mean, that's part of it.
对吧？
Right?
这是其中一部分
That's part
试玩的目的就是看看这里有没有什么问题？
of what playtesting is for is like, is there something here?
嗯。
Mhmm.
那你是个好的游戏评判者吗？
So are you a good judge of other people's games?
我不确定自己是不是最棒的试玩者。
I don't know that I'm the greatest play tester.
我的意思是，我会去我当地的团体，表达我对一些事情的看法，但我并不太喜欢对别人的东西提出批评。
I mean, I go to my local group and and I, you know, give my opinions on things, but I don't have a great I don't like to give people sort of criticisms on things.
所以这属于我的性格的一部分。
So I'm not I that's part of my personality.
所以我是
So I'm
不是，这对你来说是一个需要成长的方面吗？
not Is is is that an area of growth for you?
是的。
Yes.
这确实需要改进。
It definitely needs to be.
因为，是的，我总是先说我喜欢什么，但是
Because, yeah, I just I'll I'll always start with what I like, but
然后
then
对。
Right.
嗯，我希望它能这样那样。
Well, I wish it did this and this.
但同时，我也不想，这也不是我的职责去重新设计你的游戏，我不希望插手太多。
But at the same time, I don't want to it's not my job to redesign your game, I don't wanna, you know, take off with it.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是想
I just wanna
不想踩到别人的脚。
Don't wanna step on anybody's toes.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
我明白。
I understand.
我认为，确保游戏设计师的原始愿景得以体现，比满足你的愿望更重要。
I I think it's it's really important to ensure that the original vision of the game designer comes through more than, like, your wish wishes.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
作为玩家测试者。
As a play tester.
是的。
Yeah.
当然了。
Oh, for sure.
你能告诉我一次你作为他人游戏的测试者时，明明很想给出反馈却没说出来的经历吗？
Can you tell me about a time when you've play tested a game of somebody else's and you've really wanted to give feedback but you didn't?
那你为什么没有说呢？
And why why didn't you?
是的。
Yeah.
我想想，刚加入我本地的小组时。
I would say early on when I joined my local group Mhmm.
我确实这样做了。
I did.
我玩了很多游戏，但总是坐在一旁听。
I played a lot of things, and I would always sit back and listen.
我当时想，好吧。
I was like, okay.
另外三个人已经有很多意见要说了。
Well, these three other people have a lot of information to give.
我只是觉得我不用说，因为我觉得这游戏已经挺好的了。
And I just felt like I didn't because I had I was like, well, it it works.
没关系。
It's okay.
那并不是什么惊天动地的事，但还不错。
It wasn't, you know, mind blowing or anything, but it was fine.
我想我举不出什么特别具体的例子。
I guess I don't have a great specific example.
我只是知道，在我们很多次聚会中都经常发生这种情况。
I just know that that happened a lot at a lot of our meetups
那是更早的时候吗？
And is that earlier.
随着时间推移有改善吗？
Improve over time?
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，我现在愿意说出我对这件事的看法了。
I mean, I I'm willing now to say, this is what I think of this.
对。
Right.
但我不太擅长具体细节。
But I'm not great at specifics.
我现在更试着关注它让我有什么感受。
I tried more now to focus on how it made me feel.
这是我玩游戏时的感受。
This is how I felt when I played the game.
对。
Right.
你随意处理吧。
Do what you want with it.
对。
Right.
我希望我当时能这么做。
I wish I could have done this.
那可能
That might
那可能就足够了。
be that might be enough.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
也许吧。
Maybe.
你觉得，随着你自己作为设计师的经验增多，你在提供反馈方面也变得更好了吗？
Think that as you've gotten more experience as a designer yourself, you've gotten better at giving feedback?
我觉得是的。
I think so.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
这并不是指数级的增长，但我认为我确实进步了。
It's not exponential or anything, but it's I think I have gotten better.
对。
Right.
那和别的设计师合作呢？
And what about what about working with other designers?
这有帮助你更好地给出反馈吗？
Has that helped you give feedback better?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得是的。
I think so.
因为当我和其他设计师合作时，我觉得他们不容易被冒犯。
Because when I'm working with other designers, I don't feel like they're they're not easily offended.
所以我们一起努力，朝着共同的目标前进，努力合作把事情完成。
So I we're in the process together trying to get to a common goal, and so we are, you know, trying to work together to get get the thing done.
对。
Right.
这根本不是什么竞争，也从来不是竞争，但感觉没那么有竞争性了。
It's not it's not so much of a and it never really is a competition, but it feels much less competitive.
对。
Right.
如果不是我的事，而你在做你的事，是的。
If it's not my thing and then we're playing your thing Yeah.
而且这并不是
And it's not
这是我们如何一起合作的方式。
It's how we're playing together.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你是怎么判断某个人是否适合当联合设计师的？
Do you go about figuring out that somebody is good to be a codesigner?
比如，你会怎么做？
Like, what do you do?
你如何筛选这样的人？
How do you vet that person?
还是说你根本不会这么做？
Or do you?
你知道吗，我觉得我只想确保彼此的性格合得来，就像我们刚才说的，你必须能够提出批评。
You know, I think I just wanna make sure that the personalities like, you have to be able to give, as we're talking about this, you have to be able to give criticism.
你必须能和这个人合作，而且双方都必须愿意承担自己的那份责任。
You have to be able to work with that person, and you have to be willing each party has to be willing to carry their own weight.
我认为这是其中很重要的一部分。
I think that's a big part of it.
我上学时特别讨厌小组项目。
I absolutely hated group projects in school.
好的。
Okay.
因为我觉得我总是那个被分配了所有工作的人。
Like, because I felt like I was always the one that got stuck with all the work.
对。
Right.
很多人都是这样感觉的。
It didn't matter lot of people feel that way.
不管组里是谁，都没关系。
Which it didn't matter who was in the group.
我觉得我总是那个被推着干活的人。
I felt like I was always the one getting stuck with it.
所以在共同设计的情况下，我们已经讨论过这些事，提前明确了各自的责任。
And so in a co design situation, you know, we've talked about things and know upfront who's responsible for what.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这周谁来负责这些变更？
Who's gonna take care of the changes this week?
我们打算怎么做呢？
What are we gonna you know?
我认为，明确各自的职责以及性格是否合得来，可能是最重要的部分，至少对我来说是这样。
I think that knowing the responsibilities and that the personalities mesh are probably the most important part, at least for me.
是的。
Yeah.
我可以我可以我来
I can I can I can
因为我喜欢在开始一个流程之前，先清楚自己要面对什么？
because I like knowing what I'm getting into before I start a process?
对。
Right.
我也喜欢知道自己需要承担什么。
And I like to know what's expected of me.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你认为你在合作中主要提供了什么？
What do you think you offer to the partnership mostly?
一直都是同样的东西吗？
Is it always the same thing?
比如，我特别擅长x，所以在项目中作为合作伙伴我就负责x。
Like, I'm really good at x, and so I do x in the project as a partner.
还是说它随着时间发生了变化？
Or has it changed over time?
我觉得它会逐渐变化和演进。
I think it sort of changes and evolves.
而且，比如我和阿德里安合作时，我们每周见一次面。
And, you know, with like, in the work that I've done with Adrian, we meet once a week.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们玩这些游戏。
We play the games.
我们决定这就是我们要修改的内容。
We decide this is what we're gonna change.
如果他有TTS的文件，嗯。
And if he has the files that, like, the files for TTS Mhmm.
他会更新和修改它们。
He will update them and change them.
如果我有文件，我会更新和修改它们。
If I have the files, I will update them and change them.
我最后写了，我最后做了
I end up writing I end up doing a
很多的
lot of the
销售单和规则集，嗯。
sell sheets and rule sets Mhmm.
对于我们玩的游戏，但我们俩都会提出建议。
For our games, but we both pitch.
是的。
And Mhmm.
所以你知道的，我们只是尽量把事情分摊开。
So it's you know, we just sort of try to divide things up
对。
Right.
尽可能平均分配。
As evenly as possible.
尽可能。
As possible.
是的。
Yeah.
公平分配。
Equitable.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，在完成所有这些之前，除了马类游戏之外，你最想设计哪款游戏？
So what's one game other than a horse game that you want to design before you've done all this?
哦，这是个很好的问题。
Oh, that is a great question.
我想我会想设计《翼展》，我总是回到《翼展》。
I think I would want to design I always go back to wingspan.
就像《翼展》那样，不一定是《翼展》的热度和成功，
Like, a wingspan, not necessarily the hype and the success of wingspan,
但那确实不错。
but the I mean, that'd nice.
《翼展》以及玩它所需要的东西。
Of wingspan and the what it takes to play.
那马展呢？
What about horse span?
是的。
Yes.
你正在扩建你的马厩，饲养不同品种的马。
You're building out your barn of different breeds of horses.
我的意思是
I mean
这是个好主意。
That's a great idea.
这主意不错。
That's not a bad idea.
不。
No.
我觉得你应该做点类似的东西。
I think you should do something like that.
我应该去试试。
I should go with it.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我认为这可能会是我想
And that I think that would probably be I
我预计在2026年能看到这一点。
expect to see that in 2026.
马匹和那种翅膀展开的感觉结合在一起。
Horses and the, know, the feel of wingspan together.
那会太棒了。
That would be amazing.
对。
Right.
或者类似的东西。
Or or something like it.
对吧？
Right?
那里有嗯。
Where there's Mhmm.
我认为，那些已经拥有小众粉丝的事物，会拥有庞大的受众群体。
I think there's a big audience out there for things that have niche fans already.
这正是我想说的。
It's all I'm saying.
就像
Like
是的。
Yeah.
它会像我们说的那样受欢迎吗？
Is it gonna be as popular as we say?
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我认为有人想要这个。
But I think somebody wants it.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我想象中会有一部分受众对这个感兴趣。
I I mean, I imagine that there's some sort of audience for that.
就像是那些想和女儿一起玩的游戏玩家爸爸。
It's like gamer dads that want a game they can play with their daughters.
对。
Right.
比如，没错。
Like, yes.
你知道的。
You know?
关于马的。
With horses.
看看这个。
Look at this.
是的。
Yeah.
这有策略，也有背后的思考，而且是孩子们会喜欢的东西。
That's got the strategy and got the thought behind it, but it's something that their kids would be into.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以当你在设计游戏、不知该如何下手时，你会怎么做？
So when you are designing a game and you are at a loss of what to do, what what what do you do?
你会向谁寻求建议？
Who do you look to?
你从哪里获取灵感？
Where do you look to get inspiration?
当我感到卡住或状态不佳时，我需要清空一下大脑，嗯。
When I feel like I'm stuck or I'm generally, I need to just clear my brain Mhmm.
因为当事情不如我所愿时，我的脑子里会变得一团乱。
Because I get so it gets so crowded up there when things aren't going the way that I want them to.
所以我会去散散步，或者如果我在开车，尤其是独自一人时，能有空间思考，灵感往往就会浮现。
So it's, you know, go for a walk or generally my if I'm driving, especially by myself and can have that space to think, that's where ideas will sort of come to me.
所以只要我能暂时离开一下，通常就能……
So if I can just get away from it for a little while, that's generally
设计吗？
the design?
设计。
The design.
是的。
Yes.
它本身。
Itself.
或者当我意识到，好吧。
And or if I will I'm like, okay.
我需要解决这个游戏的具体问题。
I have a problem to solve with this game specifically.
我会去做那个事，无论是开车、散步还是其他，我只会允许自己思考这个问题，这会帮助我理清一些思路，是的。
I will go and do that thing whether I'm driving or walking or whatever, and and I will only allow myself to think about that, and that will sort of help jog a few things Sure.
在我的脑海中关于这个设计。
In in my mind about that design.
或者干脆完全忘掉它，然后另一件事就会，你知道的？
Or it's just forget about it completely, and then something else will you know?
灵感会在你最意想不到的时候出现。
An idea will come later on when you least expect it.
你同时在进行多少个想法或游戏项目？
And how many ideas or game games that you're working on do you think you have at once?
很多吗？你同时在忙多少个？
Many are you juggling?
哦，点子。
Oh, ideas.
大概有十个吧，我觉得这些都有可能成为可行的点子。
Probably 10 at a time that I feel like are could potentially be viable ideas.
你只是在脑子里想这些吗？
Are you just thinking about those?
你有真的写下来吗？
Are you actually writing stuff down?
或者你
Or you
我通常会把东西写下来。
Writing things down normally.
这基本上就是我的流程。
That's sort of my process.
我有个想法。
I have the idea.
我会尽可能多地写下来。
I will write down as much as I possibly can.
然后如果我觉得，哦，是的。
And then if I feel like, oh, yeah.
我真的想做这个，因为我突然有了灵感，对吧。
I do wanna work on this because I have a bout of inspiration Right.
不管怎样，我会试着尽快做出一个原型，自己先折腾一下。
Whatever, then I'll, you know, try to create a prototype as quickly as possible and mess around with it myself.
所以我现在笔记本里大概有十个项目，我正在考虑。
So I I would say probably 10 things right now that are in my notebook that I am trying Okay.
去评估。
To consider.
那么，这些项目中，或者你还有多少其他游戏正在推进，比如正在做原型、测试或开发？
And then how many of those or how many other games are you having on the table that are pretty much like we're prototyping this or we're testing it or we're developing it?
我估计这六个吧，好吧。
I'd say six of those Okay.
现在。
Right now.
我有
I have
这十个里的吗？
of the 10?
这十个里。
Of the 10.
是的。
Yeah.
所以有四个更像是放在一边的。
So four that are kinda like more back burner.
是的。
Yeah.
六个是比较活跃的。
Six that are kinda active.
对。
Right.
在这六个中，你通常一次专注于几个？
And of those six, how many do you focus on at once usually?
这六个都同时做？
All six of those?
这要看我的精力分配。
It's some capacity.
如果我在和一位联合设计师一起做其中一个项目，嗯。
If I feel like so if I'm working on one of them with a co designer Mhmm.
那通常会优先处理，我会主要投入在这个项目上，直到我与那个人见面或到了某个截止日期。
That usually takes priority, and we'll work on I'll work on that one the most up until I meet with that person or have a deadline of some kind.
其他项目则会在我有灵感，或者突然冒出一些想法时顺便做一下，是的。
And then others just sort of as I get inspired or if I I have a little idea about it, then that gets worked on Yeah.
下一个在队列中。
Next in the queue.
不错。
Cool.
所以我们谈到了未来的克里斯滕以及她会制作的东西。
So we talked about future Kristen and what she'd be making.
可能是一个马的游戏。
It might be a horse game.
可能叫马斯潘。
It might be horse span.
我不知道。
I don't know.
杰米，你可是第一个听到这个消息的人。
Jamie, you've heard it here first.
我非常想。
I would love to.
克里斯会来找你
Chris is gonna come to you
和马夫一起。
with Horseman.
你还期待在行业中做哪些其他事情？
What other things are you looking forward to doing in the industry?
只是设计吗？
Is it just design?
除了这个，你还想做别的吗？
Do you wanna do anything else other than that?
你也做过一些自主出版。
You've done some self publishing as well.
对吗？
Correct?
我自主出版了我的第一款游戏。
I self published my first game.
现在主要是设计。
Right now, mostly design.
我不知道自己会不会再单独出版其他东西。
I I don't know that I would self publish anything else on my own.
永远别说永远，但我就是想做设计。
Never say never, but I just wanna design.
就像，我现在就是这个状态。
Like, that's sort of where I'm at.
有朝一日，也许等孩子们搬出去后，我会直接为出版社工作，嗯。
I at some point, maybe once my kids are out of the house to to work directly for a publisher Mhmm.
那会很棒。
That would be wonderful.
我觉得我也一定会很喜欢那样。
I I think I would really enjoy that as well.
但不，现在我就专注于设计。
But, no, right now, I'm just sort of focused on design.
如果有人请我做开发，我会去做。
I would do development if anybody asked me to.
我也很乐意做开发。
I I would love to do that as well.
但说实话，我对目前的状态感到很满意。
But, yeah, I feel pretty pretty satisfied with where I am
是的。
Yeah.
现在。
Right now.
你正处于
You're in a
一个很好的阶段。
good place.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
感觉不错。
Feels good.
是的。
Yeah.
你已经打过几场比赛了，
Got a couple games under your belt,
几场比赛
couple games
心中有数，展望未来。
inside, looking towards the future.
前景很好。
It's pretty bright.
是的。
Yeah.
我充满希望。
I'm hopeful.
我对很多事情都充满希望。
I'm hopeful for things.
那么从代表性角度来看，你认为在女性设计师、女孩设计师、童子军设计师方面有所改变吗？
So in terms of of representation, do you think that it's changed in terms of women who are designing, girls who are designing, Cub Scouts who are designing.
对吧？
Right?
这些人都来自哪里？他们是从哪儿冒出来的？
Like, where where does it where does where do all these people come from?
为什么他们会选择做游戏设计？
Why are they doing game design?
你觉得游戏设计有什么特别之处，让你甚至只是因为孩子在学习它，就产生了想做的念头？
What do you think it is about game design that lends itself to even just you saying, I wanna do this other than the fact that your kids were learning from it.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这是一个极佳的创意出口。
It is a fantastic creative outlet, I think.
我能理解为什么这会吸引几乎任何人。
And I can see why that would draw just about anybody in.
这只是一个渠道，让你释放创造力，因为我以前从没觉得自己是个有创意的人，直到我开始接触这个领域。
It's just a a channel to, you know, put your creative energy because I never really thought of myself as a creative person actually before I guess Oh, getting into this.
我觉得我的学校经历某种程度上把这种能力打压掉了，我根本没觉得自己有创意。
I think school my school experience for myself sort of like kicked it out of me, and I just didn't think that I was a creative person at all.
但当我看到自己能做这件事，而且确实有想法时，
But then seeing that I could do this and I did have ideas has
对。
Right.
这真的改变了我的看法。
Has really changed it for me.
所以我鼓励我的孩子去尝试，他们也试着自己制作游戏。
And so I encourage my kids to do it, and and they try to make, you know, games on their own as well.
所以我觉得这对任何人来说都很开放。
And so I think it's really open to anybody.
这正是我喜欢的地方。
That's what I like about it.
对。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
做这类事情时，确实有一点点需要你去推销自己之类的。
It's there is a little bit of, you know, to do this kind of stuff where you're pitching and all that thing.
你得有个支持你的家庭，或者干脆没有家庭。
It's a little bit of you have to have a family that supports that or not have a family at all.
你知道的？
You know?
你知道，
You know,
也许还需要其他收入来源，因为游戏设计本身是一条非常漫长的路，从做出东西到拿到报酬之间要等很久。
maybe other sources of income because game design itself is is a very long road, you see, between making something and seeing a paycheck for it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但是的，我也相信游戏设计中有许多非常有价值的东西，值得人们去思考、参与和实践。
But, yeah, I I I also believe that there's a lot to game design that's so valuable for people to to think about and to do and to take part in.
所以我非常高兴能在这次采访中，距离上次对话一年后再次和你交谈。我会再过十二个月，比如在Origins或Gen Con上跟进你，看看克里斯汀接下来有什么新动向，因为我真的还想继续了解。
So I'm really happy that I was able to speak to you about a year after the last time, and I I will check up with you in another, you know, twelve months, you know, either at Origins or Gen Con and see, you know, what's next from Kristen because I'm still wanting to know.
我仍然想知道，那只狮子和老虎的游戏后来怎么样了？
I still wanna know, like, what's happening to that lion that tiger game.
你知道吗？
You know?
你之前给我看的那些其他游戏，现在进展如何了？
What's what's happening to the other games that you've shown me?
你觉得有一天我们会看到你的名字和另一个大名联名吗？还是你会独自开始设计？
Do you think that someday we'll see, like, your name with another big name, or is are you gonna start just designing by yourself?
并不是说阿德里安的名字不够大牌。
Not that Adrian's name is not a big name.
你明白我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
但是，比如说
But, like
当然。
Sure.
我的意思是，我真的很喜欢共同设计的过程。
I mean, I I really like design the co design process.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你最
What's your
喜欢的部分是什么？
favorite part of it?
就是那种想法的交流。
Just the sort of exchange of ideas.
我觉得，如果一个人卡住了，另一个人就在旁边，能提出一个想法。
I think we're you know, if one person is stuck, this other person is here and has an idea.
然后，哦，这激发了我其他的灵感，接着又触发了他们的新想法，就这样不断累积下去。
And then, oh, that triggers something else in me, and then that triggers something else in them, and then it just sort of builds from there.
我觉得分担工作量也很重要，因为工作量确实很大。
And sharing of the workload, I think, too is important because it's a lot.
这确实没错。
That's it for sure.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
这也是我最喜欢做这件事的部分。
And that's my my favorite part of of doing it.
所以，是的，我计划继续进行共同设计，同时也会继续做我自己的事情，看看事情会如何发展。
And so I, yeah, I plan to continue codesigning and and also working on my own stuff too and just seeing where things go.
太好了。
Excellent.
所以
So
非常感谢你，克里斯汀。
Well, thank you so much, Kristen.
很高兴你再次回来，我们争取在2025年再和你联系。
It was great having you back on, and we will try to catch up with you in 2025.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
随时欢迎。
Anytime.
这又是Ludology网络《正反面》的另一期节目。
This has been another episode of pros and cons on the Ludology Network.
请访问我们的其他节目，网址是.net。
Check out all our other shows on .net.
非常感谢你们的厚爱与支持。
Thank you so much for your love and support.
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