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你正在收听卢克的英语播客。
You're listening to Luke's English podcast.
如需更多信息，请访问 teacherluke.podomatic.com。
For more information, visit teacherluke.podomatic.com.
大家好。
Hi, everyone.
在上一期播客中，你们听了我采访一位名叫Vicky的牛津大学中国学生。
Now in the last podcast, you heard me interview a Chinese student at Oxford University here called Vicky.
我们讨论了英语学习者如何利用播客来学习，以及一些学习英语的好建议。
And we talked about how learners of English can use podcasts to learn and sort of some good bits of advice on how to learn English.
同样在那天，Vicky采访了我，她问我关于播客和英语教学的问题。
Now also on the same day, Vicky interviewed me and she was asking me questions about podcasting and about English language teaching.
所以我决定把完整的采访内容放到播客里。
So I've decided to put the complete interview on the podcast.
所以，如果你感兴趣的话，就听一下吧。
So this is just if you're interested.
如果你对听我谈论教学方法、播客以及英语学习感兴趣，那么这个节目就是为你准备的。
If you're interested in listening to me talking about teaching methods and talking about podcasting and learning English, then this is for you.
这只是一个两个人之间自然真实对话的好例子。
It it's just a good sample of natural, authentic conversation between two people.
如果你对这个话题感兴趣，如果你认为英语学习和播客是一个有趣的话题——考虑到你下载了这个播客，你很可能正在学习英语，那你 probably do（你很可能这么认为）。
If you're interested in in the subject, if you think that learning English and podcasts is an interesting subject, which you probably do considering you've downloaded this podcast and you're probably learning English.
如果你觉得这个话题有趣，那么对你来说也会很有帮助，因为它会是一个令人振奋的聆听体验。
If you if you think it's an interesting subject, then it will be good for you as well because it'll just be a stimulating thing to listen to.
但总的来说，你可以选择直接聆听我和Vicky之间的对话，试着理解我们在说什么，弄清楚我们具体在讨论什么。
But basically, you can decide here to just listen to the conversation between me and Vicky, and just try and follow what we're saying, try and work out exactly what we're talking about.
明白吗？
Okay?
我不会为这段内容提供文字稿，因为打字记录实在太费事了。
I'm not going to provide a transcript for this because it's just too much typing for me to do.
我没有时间把整个对话逐字转录出来，因为它太长了。
I don't have time to transcribe the whole conversation because it's a very long one.
如果你想听维基对我的采访，可以收听之前的播客，那里有那场采访的完整文字稿。
If you want to listen to the interview that Vicky did with me, then you can read the previous you you can listen to the previous podcast, and there's a a complete transcript for that interview.
明白吗？
Okay?
维基对我的这次采访我觉得相当有趣，不仅能为你提供良好的听力练习，也颇具信息量。
This interview that that Vicky did with me is just, I think, quite an interesting conversation and just good listening practice for you and should be kind of informative as well.
所以现在我来为你播放这段对话。
So I'm gonna play the conversation to you now.
就这样。
That's it.
我希望你喜欢这段对话。
I hope you I hope you I hope you like the conversation.
我希望你觉得它既有趣又有启发性。
I hope you find it interesting and informative.
就这样。
That's it.
这次就到这里了。
That's it for this one.
好的。
Okay.
这是我和Vicky的访谈。
So here is the interview with Vicky and me.
好的。
Alright.
干杯。
Cheers.
再见。
Bye.
再见。
Bye.
再见。
Bye.
再见。
Bye.
好的。
Okay.
今天是2009年8月5日。
Today is August 5 in 2009.
采访者是维基，受访者是卢克。
And the interviewer Vicky, the interviewee Luke.
你好，卢克。
Hello, Luke.
你好，维基。
Hello, Vicky.
非常感谢你参加这次采访。
Thank you very much for attending this interview.
这实际上是为我的研究做的。
And that is for my research, actually.
这是为我的论文研究做的。
It is for my research for my dissertation.
对。
Right.
是硕士论文，我给你写了封信，希望得到你的回复。
Master dissertation, and I wrote a letter to you to receive Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
邮件。
Email.
这是你的硕士论文，对吧？
It's your master's dissertation.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Yep.
这里是一些关于某些问题的内容。
And here's some about the some of the questions.
你教英语有多少年了？
How how many years have you been teaching English?
我已经教了大约八年了。
I've been teaching for about eight years now.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
是吗？你觉得这有趣吗？
It's been is it so did you find this interesting?
这是一份有趣的工作吗？
Is it an interesting job
教书吗？
to To teach?
是的。
Yeah.
教书。
To teach.
是的。
Yes.
这非常有趣。
It's very interesting.
为什么？
Why?
你为什么这么认为？
Why do think so?
因为我知道有些人可能会觉得从教书中能赚很多钱。
Because some people I know that some people may find it's it's we could learn learn a lot of money from that.
养家糊口之类的。
Support our lives or whatever.
不是钱的问题。
It's not it's not the money.
这不是
It's not
因为我的收入远低于我本可以赚到的金额，嗯。
the because I'm not earning very much money compared to what I could be earning Mhmm.
如果我过去八年在其他行业工作，我会赚得多得多。
If I was if I'd been working in a different industry for eight years, I'd be earning a lot more money.
英语教学领域存在一种玻璃天花板，意味着你达到某个阶段后，就很难再突破并获得高薪。
There's a kind of glass ceiling in terms of English language teaching which means that you get to a certain point and then it's difficult to really break through and earn a large salary.
所以，我当然希望赚更多钱，但我喜欢这份工作的原因并不是它报酬丰厚。
So obviously, I'd like to earn more money but the reason why I like my job is not because it pays well.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为它的报酬并不高。
Because it doesn't pay that well.
报酬还行。
It pays alright.
嗯。
Mhmm.
还不错。
It's fine.
足够生活了，我也挺好的。
It's enough to live on and I'm alright.
我有自己的公寓。
I've got my own flat
嗯。
Mhmm.
还有诸如此类的事情。
And all that sort of thing.
但我永远不会发财，除非我的播客变得异常成功。
I'm never gonna be rich though unless my podcast becomes somehow amazingly successful.
但不，我喜欢的是与来自不同地方的人交流。
But no, it's the the thing that I enjoy is meeting people from different places.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这些来自不同国家的人，看着他们彼此互动，每两周结识许多有趣的人。
All these people from different countries and watching them interact with each other and meeting lots of interesting individuals every two weeks.
我基本上每周都会遇到一群全新的
I get a whole every week basically I meet a whole new
新班级？
New class?
取决于我教的是哪个班，要么是新班级，要么是一群新人。
Class or a whole new bunch of people depending on which class I'm teaching.
所以你教这些课程是为了考试吗？比如雅思？
So are you teaching those classes for examination like for IELTS?
我有时会教考试课程，但大部分时间我教的是商务英语、通用英语和法律英语。
I do teach exam classes sometimes, but for the most part, I teach business English, general English, legal English.
法律英语？
Legal English?
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以你能告诉我，你认为教授英语作为第二语言最有效和高效的方法是什么吗？
So could you please tell me what do you think what do you consider to be the most efficient and effective way of teaching English as a second language?
哇。
Wow.
这个问题太大了。
That's such a big question.
嗯。
Yeah.
这确实是个大问题。
That's really a big question.
所以慢慢告诉我你的故事吧
So take your time to tell me up on story
最有效和高效的教学方式是什么？
or The most efficient and effective way of teaching?
是的。
Yeah.
所以如果你
So if you
好的。
Okay.
行。
Alright.
两个或三个词来
Two or three three words to
好的。
Okay.
对我来说，对我来说，最重要的事情首先是，这有点难，但从根本上说，是输入，对吧？
For me for me the the most important things are first of all, it's kind of difficult but in a basic way input, right?
所以输入实际上是指教授词汇、表达、单词或词组、短语或语法本身，比如教人们如何使用现在完成时、条件时态等等。
So input means actually teaching vocabulary, teaching expressions, words or groups of words, phrases or grammar itself, teaching people how to use the present perfect tense or whatever, conditional tenses or whatever.
所以输入基本上就是人们不知道的东西，而你正在教给他们，这就是输入。
So input basically things that people don't know and you're teaching it to them so that's input.
另一个是练习。
The other one is practice.
你需要给学生提供机会，比如多说、多读、多听或多写。
You need to just give the students opportunities to for example speak a lot or read a lot or listen a lot or write a lot, for example.
所以输入、练习和反馈。
So input, practice and feedback.
第三点是反馈。
The third thing being feedback.
他们需要知道自己的做法是否正确。
They need to be told whether they're doing it correctly or not.
他们需要知道自己的口语是否准确。
They need to be told whether they are speaking correctly.
他们需要得到建议，根据他们所犯的错误来改进说话方式。
They need to be given advice on how to speak better based on the mistakes they're making.
他们只需要被指出正在犯哪些错误，以及如何尝试纠正这些错误。
They just need to be shown which mistakes they're making and how they can try and correct those mistakes.
这是一种非常基础的看待方式。
That's a very basic way of looking at it.
正如你所知，多年来人们一直在撰写关于这一主题的书籍，人们也进行学术讨论，探讨学习英语的最佳方法。
People have been writing, as you know, people have been writing books and things about this subject for years and years and years and you know people have academic discussions about it and what's the best way to learn English.
在某些方面，我认为如果你把一些正在学习英语的人放在一起，让他们处于一个说英语的环境中，这个环境可能涉及说话、听力或其他活动。
In some ways I think that actually if you put some people together who are learning English and put them in a situation where they are speaking English and they're in an environment which involves maybe speaking or listening or something.
仅仅处于一个涉及英语交流的环境中。
Just in an environment that involves communication in English.
他们就会学到一些东西。
They're going to learn something.
他们会进步，而无论在这种环境中发生什么，最终都可能促使他们通过尝试使用语言来发展某种程度的英语能力。
They're going to improve And whatever goes on in that situation, in the end, will probably lead to them developing some levels of skill in English just by trying to use the language in a way.
但这还不够。
But that's not enough.
你还需要做很多其他事情，比如反馈。
There's lots of other things you need to do like feedback, for example.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
实际上，我们都知道有四种技能：口语、听力、阅读和写作。
So actually there are four skills we we we all know that for, like speaking, listening, reading, and writing.
是的。
Yeah.
那么在这四种技能中，你认为哪一种最难教？
So which one of the four skills do do you think is most difficult to teach?
哪一种最难教？
Which one's the most difficult to teach?
阅读、写作、口语还是听力？
Reading, writing, speaking, or listening?
从哪个方面来看，你认为学生的进步最慢？
In terms of which one do you think that the students will get progress the slowest?
这又是一个难题。
That's again a difficult question.
哪一个更具挑战性？
Which one is the more challenging one?
我的意思是，你可以从教师的角度，也可以从学习者的角度来看这个问题。
Well I mean you can see that question from the point of view of the teacher or from the point of view of the learners.
从教师的角度来看，教某项技能可能更容易，因为仅就课堂上的教学流程而言，组织一节口语课比组织一节写作课要简单得多。
You see from the teacher's point of view it might be easier to teach something because just in terms of the procedure that you go through in a classroom, it's just easier to carry out a procedure for example for a speaking lesson than it would be to carry out a procedure for a writing lesson.
实际上，在课堂上管理写作课比管理口语课要复杂得多。
It just seems to be more complicated to actually manage a writing lesson in class than to manage a speaking lesson in class.
因此，从这个角度来看，教学更容易一些。
So from that point of view, it's easier to teach.
我的意思是，从我的角度来看，它们都同样困难，因为我更常教口语，所以我觉得教口语更容易。
Mean I they're all very all are as difficult From as each my point of view because I teach speaking more often, I find that easier to teach.
我的意思是，如果你在教雅思课程，你就必须专注于教授听力、写作和阅读技能。
I mean if you're doing an IELTS course, then you have to focus on teaching listening skills, teaching writing skills and teaching reading skills as well.
它们各自都有不同的挑战和容易的地方。
And they all have their own different challenges and different things that are easy.
我真没法给你一个简单明了的答案。
I can't really give you a really nice simple question for that.
我只能东拉西扯。
I can just ramble on.
如果我们谈口语，其实很难解释清楚。
If we talk about speaking, you've got It's it's difficult to explain, actually.
我认为从教师的角度来看，口语确实是更容易教的，因为它是最具交际性的技能。
I do think that that speaking is the much easier actually, is easiest to teach from the teacher's point of view because it's the most communicative skill.
是的。
Yeah.
因为师生之间有互动。
Because you have interaction between the teachers and the students.
是的。
Yeah.
但口语实际上是学生进步最慢的技能。
But speaking actually as the skill which one the the the students get get progressed the slowest.
因为嗯。
Because Mhmm.
可能他们确实像你说的那样，有一些输入，但他们必须记住这些内容。
Probably they they actually, they input just as you said, they they have some some kind of input, but they have to remember that.
他们必须记住并以自己的方式输出。
They have to memorize it and to output in their way.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以他们可能无法模仿示范。
So probably, they cannot follow the models.
他们就是不知道该怎么正确发音。
They can they just don't know how to pronounce that right.
他们不知道如何正确使用表达方式和短语。
They don't know how to use the use expressions, how to use the phrase right.
这可能是学生觉得最困难的地方。
That's probably what the students find it most difficult.
而且还有，嗯。
Plus plus there's yeah.
他们的自信心方面还有各种各样的其他问题，你知道，当你真的身处一群人当中时，是否感到自在，敢不敢开口说话，怕在别人面前出丑，而且当你进行口语表达时，不仅需要知道单词、懂得语法、明白对错，你还必须实际说出来。
There's there's all sorts of other complications with their confidence, you know, when you're actually in a room for the people, whether you feel comfortable opening your mouth and embarrassing yourself in front of people or yeah, the fact that when you're doing speaking, not only do you have to know the words and know the grammar and know what's right and wrong, but you actually have to do it as well.
这不仅仅是你懂什么，而是你能做什么。
It's not about just what you know but about what you can do.
所以我想可以说，阅读比口语更容易，因为至少你可以坐在那里，只需要理解文本。
So I guess that let's say then, you could say that reading is easier than speaking because in a way you just sit there and you just have to understand the text.
某种程度上它更被动，尽管很多人会说这根本不是被动的，你需要与文本互动，诸如此类的
It's more passive in a way although many people would say that it's not passive at all, that you interact with the text and all that kind
这样的事情。
of thing.
这很难解释，因为可以从很多角度来看待这些问题。
It's such a difficult thing to explain because there are so many angles from which to see these things.
但我需要集中注意力，不要泛泛而谈。
But I need to just try and focus my mind so that I'm not talking broadly.
在某些方面，教口语更容易，因为管理一群进行口语练习的人相对简单：你可以把他们分成两人一组，让他们互相交谈，你倾听并随后给予反馈。
Okay, in some respects teaching speaking is easier because it just is easier to manage a group of people who are doing a speaking because you can put them in pairs and they speak to each other in pairs, you listen to them and you can give them feedback afterwards.
进行口语任务相当直接。
It's quite straightforward to do a speaking task.
例如，你可以给他们提供语言范例，向他们解释一些语言点，比如讲解一些短语动词，并通过各种检查程序确保他们理解这些词语。
You might for example give them examples of the language, explain some language to them like for example you do some phrasal verbs with them and you make sure that they understand those words by going through all the checking procedures and all that sort of thing.
然后到了口语练习环节，你让他们实际使用这些短语动词，这样更容易管理，因为正如我所说，你只需让他们互相交谈，然后你可以在教室中间全程倾听并给予反馈。
Then when it comes to the speaking part, you actually get them to use those phrasal verbs and it's easier to manage because like I said, you just get them to talk to each other and then you can listen to it all in class in the middle of the room and give them feedback on it.
如果你在教授口语技能，情况也类似。
If you're teaching speaking skills again it's a similar thing.
例如，针对雅思考试的口语技能，你会给他们提供关于该做什么和不该做什么的建议，然后让他们练习回答一些可能在雅思口语部分出现的典型问题。
For example speaking skills for the IELTS test, you would give them advice on what they should and shouldn't do and then you get them to practise speaking about various example questions that they might get in the IELTS speaking part.
你听他们说，然后在最后给予反馈。
You listen to them, then you give them feedback at the end.
你们可以一起以小组形式讨论如何应对口语部分第一部分？
You might do some work together as a group on how should you approach the speaking part one?
你可以给出哪些类型的回答？' 然后在黑板上头脑风暴这些内容，诸如此类。
What are the sorts of answers that you can give?' and you brainstorm those things on the board and that sort of thing.
当真正进入口语部分时，你会让他们互相采访，假设其中一人是考官，另一人是
Then when it actually comes to the speaking part, you get them to interview each other as if one of them was the examiner and one of
考生。
them was the
考官。
examiner.
然后可能其中一人是听众，他们倾听并互相给予反馈，最后等等。
Then maybe one of them is the listener and they kind of listen and give each other feedback and at the end and that sort of thing.
因此，对于一群人交流来说，这种方式更容易，因为你可以让人们以更自然的方式进行交流。
So for group of people communicating it's easier in that sense that you can just actually get people communicating in a more natural way.
但当你进行写作教学时，这就更困难了，因为写作涉及每个学生独自在自己的纸上完成自己的作品，而你要给予反馈，就必须像考官一样阅读每一篇作文。
But when you're doing writing, that's more difficult because writing involves each student individually writing their own work on their own piece of paper and in order for you to give them feedback, need to read it as if an examiner would be in the same way that an examiner reads a piece of writing.
作为老师，你真的需要逐篇阅读每一份写作，然后评估他们哪里做得对、哪里做得错，不仅从语言和准确性方面，还要从组织结构和行文流畅性方面进行评价。
You, as the teacher really, need to read each bit of writing and then give them an assessment of what they're doing wrong and right not only in terms of the language and the accuracy but in terms of the organisational structure and the way it flows together.
所以你不可能在课堂上完成这一切。
So you can't just do that in class.
你或许可以让学生在课堂上写作，但批改工作必须作为家庭作业完成，因此他们无法获得即时反馈，诸如此类。
You get them to write in class perhaps but then you need to do all the marking as homework so they don't get instant feedback and that kind of thing.
此外，写作是关注写作过程，还是写作成果？
Also with writing, is it the process of writing or is it the product?
你究竟该如何教授写作？
How do you actually teach it?
你是教学生如何一步步完成写作任务的过程，还是直接教他们最终应该写出什么样的成品，而不是教他们应该如何写作？
Do you teach the process of how you approach the writing of a task or do you teach the final product of this is the thing that you should be writing rather than this is how you should be writing it.
所以这也很难。
So that's difficult too.
那听力呢？
What about listening?
听力也是类似的情况。
Listening is the same kind of thing.
你需要关注学生如何尝试理解对话的大意，或者当他们不太明白时如何猜测内容。
You need to look at how students can try and pick up the general meaning of a conversation or how they can try and guess what's going on if they don't really understand.
你可以教授各种不同的听力技能。
There are various different listening skills that you can teach.
我认为教授听力、阅读和写作有点困难，因为学生在心理上并不总是为技能训练做好准备。
It's a little bit difficult teaching listening, reading and writing I think because students mentally aren't always prepared for the skills work.
他们未必意识到阅读文本有多种方式，或者聆听时可以运用不同的技巧。
They don't necessarily realise that there are different ways of reading a text or that there are different skills you can apply to listening to something.
他们只是觉得：你听了，就能懂，或者听不懂。
They just see it as well you listen and you understand it or you don't.
没关系，你不需要理解所有内容。
That it's okay, you don't have to understand everything.
事实上，即使是母语者在对话中也不是每个词都能听懂，关键是要运用你的知识，大胆猜测你不理解的词。
In fact, not everybody understands every single word they hear even in native conversations but it's a case of trying to use your knowledge and being bold enough to guess words that you don't understand.
就是这样。
That kind of thing.
我回答到你的问题了吗？
Am I answering your question?
是的。
Yeah.
太好了。
Excellent.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
太好了。
Excellent.
嗯，实际上，我认为你已经回答了下一个问题。
Well well, actually, I think you have already answered the next question.
什么是
What is
下一个问题是什么？
most the next question?
教他们英语口语时，最困难的是什么？
What is the most difficult thing when teaching them oral English?
教他们英语口语时，
When teaching them oral oral
英语。
English.
嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
这是自信心的问题。
The it's the confidence issue.
这是自信心的问题。
It's the confidence issue.
对吧？
Right?
我想是的。
I suppose so.
你有没有尝试过使用一些现代技术来帮助你教学，并提升他们的学习成果？
Have you ever tried using some kind of modern technology to help you teach and to enhance their learning program their learning achievement?
嗯。
Yeah.
我确实经常使用技术，但并不一定用得很聪明。
I do use use technology all the time, but not necessarily in a very clever way.
你指的是什么聪明？
How do
你的意思是聪明？
you mean by clever?
我的意思不是以某种特别的方式。
I mean not in a sort of special way or anything.
我只是通过给他们放视频来使用技术。
I use technology by just showing them videos
还有
and
我给他们播放音频。
I'm playing them audio.
我说的是，我把笔记本电脑带到学校，电脑里存了很多我从YouTube下载的视频，这可能我不该这么做。
Talking about is I bring my laptop into school and on my laptop I've got lots of videos that I've downloaded from YouTube which I probably shouldn't do.
但不管怎样，我不知道这是否合法。
But anyway, I know if it's legal.
你怎么能从YouTube下载呢？
How how could you download from YouTube?
有很多方法可以做到。
There's lots of ways to do it.
这很容易。
It's easy.
我直接告诉你我们的网站吧。
I'll I'll just tell you our website.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
www.keepvid.something。
Www.keepvid.something.
Keepkeepvid。
Keepkeepvid.
嗯。
Yeah.
只要在谷歌上搜索keepvid就能找到。
Just Google keepvid and you'll find it.
Keepvid。
Keepvid.
好的。
Okay.
这是一个真正的网站，就是一个下载器。
And it's an it's an actual website that just is a downloader.
你只需把YouTube的网址粘贴进去。
You just type the website the URL in for YouTube.
我知道这是非法的，但我做的就是先在YouTube上搜索某个内容，然后再到中国网站上搜索。
I know it's illegal but I what I do what I did is I searched something on YouTube, and then I searched on the Chinese website.
而这个中国网站确实允许下载，它有一个软件可以下载，然后你可以转换格式，使其适配你的iPod。
And the Chinese website actually allowed downloading, and it's it hasn't kind of it has a it has a software which you could download through, and then you could transfer the format which can fit into your iPod.
听起来像是KeepVid。
Sounds like KeepVid.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢这个。
I like it.
KeepVid这个网站本身就能下载YouTube视频。
KeepVid will the web page itself will download somehow manages to download YouTube videos.
你只需复制YouTube视频的URL，粘贴到Keepit的下载框中。
You just copy the URL of the YouTube video and paste it into the download bar of Keepit.
点击下载。
Click download.
它会给你两个选项。
It gives you two options.
高分辨率或低分辨率。
The high resolution or low resolution.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后你直接右键点击高清版本。
And you just right click on the high resolution one.
另存为。
Save as.
好的。
Okay.
然后你就下载到那个地方吗？
And then you just download into the that?
不是。
No.
它是免费的。
It's free.
它是免费的。
It's free.
完全免费。
Total free.
我的还是
Mine's still
也免费。
free too.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
是啊。
Yeah.
这就是我喜欢高时间的原因。
That's why love high time.
很不错，对吧？
It's good, isn't it?
嗯。
Yeah.
科技很棒。
Technology is great.
但好吧。
But okay.
所以我做的就是把笔记本电脑带进教室，插到电视上，嗯。
So what I do is I bring my laptop into the classroom and I plug it into the TV Mhmm.
平板电视，我用它播放YouTube上的视频或从YouTube下载的视频。
The flat screen TV and I use it to play videos either on YouTube or downloaded from YouTube.
我用它播放DVD和CD。
I use it to play DVDs and CDs.
我可以使用它播放来自iTunes的播客。
I can use it to play podcasts from iTunes.
我可以使用它向他们展示互联网上的内容。
I can use it to show them things on the internet.
所以我可以向他们展示有趣的播客之类的东西。
So I can show them interesting podcasts and things like that.
我可以给他们展示BBC网站，如果遇到我无法解释的单词，我也可以用谷歌图片搜索展示图片。
I can show them the BBC website and I can also show them pictures on the Google image search if there's a word that I can't explain.
嗯。
Mhmm.
比如当我试图解释什么是豚鼠时
Like if I'm trying to explain what a guinea pig is
豚鼠。
Guinea pig.
豚鼠。
Guinea pig.
对吧？
Right?
然后我会实际用谷歌图片搜索‘豚鼠’这个词。
Then then I will actually Google image search the word guinea pig.
豚鼠是。
Guinea pig is.
他们立刻就明白了，因为很难用语言解释什么是豚鼠。
And instantly they know what it is because it's difficult to explain what a guinea pig is.
豚鼠是一种宠物。
Guinea pig is it's like a pet.
它像仓鼠，但比仓鼠大。
It's like a hamster but it's bigger than a hamster.
我
I
我知道这个。
know that one.
明白了吗？
Got it?
它是个小的。
It's a small one.
是的。
Yeah.
仙子。
Fairy.
它是一个小巧、可爱、粉红色的生物。
It's a small cute and pinky one.
它不是粉红色的。
It's not pink.
不是粉红色？
Not pink?
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
因为因为我看过很多图片，是在中国小说里看到关于豚鼠的描述。
Because because I I saw a lot of pictures which which I I saw the description of the guinea pig in Chinese novel.
对。
Right.
而且总是被描述成粉红色的。
And there's like always to describe as a pinky one.
这样更可爱吗？
Is it that's more cute?
嗯，它很可爱，但不是粉红色的。
Well, it's cute, but it's not pink.
我觉得这样不行。
I don't think It's fine.
我不认为除了火烈鸟之外还有其他粉红色的动物。
I don't think there are any pink animals except flamingos.
除此之外，它们几乎都不是粉红色的。
Other than that pretty much all of them are just non pink.
但无论如何，有时候会提到，比如你说‘你可以当我的豚鼠’，或者‘在实验中当豚鼠’，对吧？
But anyway sometimes it comes up because you know you say for example oh you can be my guinea pig' or to be a guinea pig in an experiment' right?
这就是它在日常用语中的用法。
That's how it's used in common speech.
我们在日常生活中很少见到豚鼠，但谈论它们却很多，尤其是在谈论做实验之类的事情时。
We don't see many guinea pigs in our daily lives but we talk about them quite a lot especially when you're talking about doing an experiment or something.
你就是你的豚鼠，对吧？
They are your guinea pig, right?
所以很多时候我不得不实际解释一下。
And so often I have to actually explain.
每当提到这个，他们就会问：‘什么是豚鼠？’然后他们花上三十分钟试图理解豚鼠是什么，还以为它是仓鼠，或者某种老鼠。
When that comes up they're like ', what's a guinea pig?' and then it ends up being like thirty minutes of them trying to understand what a guinea pig is and thirty minutes of them thinking it's a hamster or thinking it's a kind of rat or something.
唯一的快速解决办法就是给他们看一张豚鼠的图片。
And the only quick solution is to actually show them a picture of a guinea pig.
然后， bingo，他们就明白了，你可以继续往下讲。
And then bingo, they get it and you can move on.
好的。
Okay.
酷。
Cool.
所以，没错，这就是我使用技术的方式。
So, yeah, that's how I use the technology.
嗯。
Yeah.
那么，关于用播客学习第二语言，你听说过吗？
So what podcasting second language shooting and learning have you ever heard of?
因为你提到你使用播客。
Because you you you mentioned you use podcasts.
那么，具体来说，你听说过哪些播客？
So what kind of what actually, what podcast is in particular have you ever heard of?
我的意思是，我用过哪些播客？
Well, mean, which which podcasts have I used?
除了你的那个，你的手臂。
Except for your yours Your arm.
除了我的。
Except for mine.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
嗯，这个问题一直被提出来，因为出于各种原因，人们总是问我如何在课堂上使用播客。
Well, see this question keeps coming up because for various reasons people keep asking me about podcasting and it's always how can you use podcasts in the classroom?
对我来说，播客在课堂上并没有什么特别之处。
And for me podcasts are nothing special for the classroom.
它们在课堂上的使用方式并没有什么特别的地方，除了它仅仅是一个音频资源。
There's nothing particularly special about how they can be used in class other than the fact that it's just an audio resource.
播客是获取音频内容的一种绝佳方式，然后你可以像使用其他任何来源的音频一样在课堂上使用它们。
Podcasts are just a great way of getting audio and you then use that in class just in the same way that you would use your audio from any other source.
所以你可以用它的方式，和你使用从广播录下的内容、或之前与其他老师录制的音频、或DVD上的内容完全一样。
So you could use it just in the same way that you would use something you've recorded from the radio or something that you've recorded with another teacher before you go into class or something that is on a DVD.
它就是一个听力资源，仅此而已。
It's a listening resource, that's all.
我想区别在于，播客内容是最新的，通常非常及时，而且数量非常多，因此作为教师，只要你愿意去探索，就能找到几乎任何主题的播客。
And the difference I guess is that it's current, it's very up to date often and there are loads and loads of them out there so that as teachers, if you're willing to investigate, you can find podcasts on almost any topic.
嗯。
Yeah.
而且它们通常会定期更新。
And the fact that they are very often updated regularly.
所以如果你找到一个有趣的播客，你可以回头再听同一个人的另一期节目，这样能为你的课程带来一种连续性。
So you can if you find a podcast that's interesting, then you can come back to that podcast and listen to another one by the same person for example and that gives a kind of continuity to your lessons.
如果你长期教授一个班级，可以每隔几周就使用来自同一来源的另一期播客，比如你最喜欢的电影评论播客的另一篇影评，或者另一个关于不同国家的指南等等。
If you're teaching a class over a long period of time, you can kind of every couple of weeks do another podcast from whoever, like another movie review for example from your favourite movie review podcast or another guide to a different country or something.
有太多不同类型的内容了。
There's so many different things.
但事实上，播客只是你可以用于课堂的听力材料。
But really podcasts are just listening material that you can use in class.
教师需要对其进行调整，他们可以像使用其他任何听力材料一样，用播客来教授词汇、语法，作为口语讨论的切入点，用于各种不同的教学目的。
Teachers have to adapt it, They can adapt podcasts just like they can adapt any other listening resource by using them to teach vocabulary, using them to teach grammar, using them as a speaking point, using them for all kinds of different things.
就像，比如说，如果有人给了你一盘磁带，里面是我和朋友关于宠物的对话。
Just like if for example, you know, if someone gave you a cassette of like, alright, me and my friend had a conversation about pets
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们把它录下来了，这就是。
And we taped it, here it is.
这完全一样，完全一样。
That is exactly the same The same
就像播客一样。
as podcast.
就像就像。
As as
所以没什么大区别。
so There's no big difference.
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
尽管互联网上有些播客是专门为英语学习者设计的。
Although although some podcasts on the Internet are designed for learners of English.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
而且有些是为英语教师设计的。
And some of them are designed for teachers of English too.
所以，为英语学习者设计的那些可能适合在课堂上使用，因为某些情况下英语水平是分级的。
So the ones for learners of English might appropriate to be used in class because the level of English will be graded in some cases.
这意味着你可以找到一些提供音频材料的播客，而且它们适合初级水平的学习者。
So that means that you can actually find podcasts that provide you with audio material but it's good for lower levels.
其中一些包含文字稿，这很好，意味着作为教师，你可以直接复制这些文字，放到练习纸上，然后复印发给学生，让他们在听的时候阅读，或者用它来突出某些词汇。
Some of them include a transcript which is good and that means that as the teacher you can just copy that text and put it onto a worksheet and then photocopy it and give it to the students and they can then read it while they're listening to it or you can use it to sort of highlight words.
它很容易融入课程中。
It's easily adaptable into a lesson.
有时，为英语学习者制作的播客会包含对语言的说明，或者对播客中使用词汇的定义，作为教师，你可以把这些文字拿过来，放到Microsoft Word文档中，进行修改，制作成练习纸，然后在课堂上使用。
Sometimes podcasts for learners in English will include descriptions of the language or maybe definitions of bits of vocabulary that have been used in the podcast and you can, as a teacher, steal that text, put it on a Microsoft Word document and then adapt it and turn it into a worksheet which you can then teach in class.
所以这很好。
So that's good.
至于给英语教师的播客，虽然不多，但有一些确实会提供完整的教案，你可以下载为PDF文件，直接带进课堂使用。
And podcasts for teachers of English, there aren't very many but there are a few, will actually provide you with an actual lesson plan which you can download as a PDF and then just bring into class and use.
BBC 就做过一些这样的事情。
The BBC does a few things like that.
他们为学生提供了资源，也为我
They've got resources for students and resources for I
我认为英国文化协会也做过类似的事情。
think the British Council has also did it.
它现在不这么做了。
It's not doing that.
没错。
That's right.
它们其实是合作的，想想看。
They work together, think, actually.
英国文化协会和BBC，他们不应该吗？
The British Council and the BBC, shouldn't they?
你应该如此。
You should be.
也许不。
Maybe not.
我不确定。
I'm not sure.
我对这一点不太确定。
I'm not quite sure about that.
但根据英国文化协会的网站，你可以找到大量给教师的教学材料。
But from the website in the website of British Council, you could find loads of teaching materials for teachers.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得当我搜索像‘播客’和‘学习英语’这样的关键词时，谷歌上最常出现的是ESL播客、英语作为单一语言。
And I think when I type, like, podcasts and learning English into Google, the most frequently Google ones are like ESL podcast, English as a single language.
真的吗？
That's Really?
是的。
Yeah.
它就叫ESL播客。
It's that is called ESL podcast.
是的。
Yeah.
但是，对不起。
But but sorry.
ESL播客是最受欢迎的播客。
Podcast ESL podcast is the most popular podcasts.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是吗？
Are they?
哇。
Wow.
好的。
Alright.
那很好。
That's that's good.
还有英国文化协会的那个。
And the British Council one.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我采访过的所有学生中，我都已经...
But I from all the students I've I've I have already interviewed.
所以ESL播客可能是他们最喜欢的，因为语速比较慢。
So ESL podcast maybe their maybe their favorite ones because the it's quite slow.
发音很夸张，语速也慢。
It's quite exaggerated from with exaggerated pronunciation with slower speed.
嗯。
Yeah.
而且他们有文字稿，但一旦他们成为高级会员，而不是顶级会员。
And they have the transcripts, but they once they got into the premier not the premier member.
我认为最好的会员或者其他什么会员，就能获得完整的逐字逐句的文字稿。
I think the the best member or whatever, they could get the the the whole package of transcripts word by word verbatim one.
对。
Right.
你觉得这样做好吗？你觉得我该这么做吗？
Do you think that's a good do you think I should do that?
不。
No.
你觉得怎么样？
What's what what what do you think of that?
其实这个主意不是我想的，我跟本聊过。
Because I've talked actually, I I didn't come up with this idea.
我跟本聊完之后，他告诉我他不喜欢这个想法。
I talked after I talked with Ben, And he told me he doesn't like it.
他认为播客应该更自然一些。
It should be he thought that that the podcast should be more natural.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得不应该给学生提供逐字逐句的逐字稿，因为正如你所说，他们会养成依赖逐字稿的习惯。
I don't think it should be a verbatim transcripts transcript for the students because they just as you said, they will they will form a habit that I have to depend on the transcripts word word by word.
我必须仔细听每一个词，才能理解。
I have to listen clearly every word that I that I could understand Mhmm.
整段内容。
The whole passage.
但这并不是全部真相。
But it's not it's not the whole truth.
你不必去听它们。
You you you don't have to listen to them.
你不必清楚地逐字理解他们在说什么。
You don't have to know clearly word by word what they are talking about.
你
You
只是嗯。
just Mhmm.
只需抓住一些关键词，猜测其含义。
Just pick up some keywords and guess what the meaning it is.
是的。
Yeah.
即使有人讲中文，我脑子里也会有一种语言的流动感，我不必逐字捕捉并分析每个词的意思。
Even if someone talking Chinese, I don't actually, there is an there's there's a kind of a language language flow in my in my in my brain, and I don't I don't have to pick up every word and to analyze what it means.
嗯。
Yeah.
我应该抓住一些关键词，就这样。
I should pick up some keywords, and that's it.
我明白了。
I got a meaning.
不过，对于那些在互联网上搜索英语学习资源的学生或学习者来说，他们想要的是方便的东西。
So so you're the the the the thing is though that students or learners of English out there, when they search on the internet, they want something convenient.
他们想要一种能让英语学习变得更容易的方法。
They want something that is going to make it easy to learn English.
现在它
Now it's
并不是关于自信。
not really about confidence.
自信。
Confidence.
他们没有信心。
They don't have the confidence.
他们不确信我能理解。
They're not confident that I could understand it.
所以，是的。
So I Yeah.
我必须从白纸黑字的材料中获取一些支持和帮助。
I have to get some support and help from the words from from, like, the white paper and black words.
我认为我肯定有所收获。
And I think I I'm sure that I got something.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That's true.
确实如此。
It's true.
现在我同意这一点。
Now I agree with that.
我同意这样一个观点：学生或学习者在听的时候不应该依赖字幕，因为这并不能真正提升他们的听力技能。
I agree with the idea that students or learners shouldn't be dependent on having a transcript there while they listen because it doesn't really help your listening skills.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但这确实取决于他们听播客的目的，因为有些学习者，你可以说，他们是真心想通过听来提高英语水平，还是只是想听英语并理解每一个单词？
But it really depends on why they're listening to the podcast because some some learners You could say, are they listening to really learn to really really improve their English or are they listening just because they want to listen to English and understand every word?
他们是想理解内容，还是想学习语言？
Are they listening to understand or are they listening to learn?
两者都是。
Both.
这之间是有区别的。
There's a kind of difference.
他们两者都在做。
They are doing both.
我认为这之间有一种区别，因为有时候，学习的最佳方式是敞开心扉，接受那些你不懂的东西。
There's a sort of difference I think because sometimes when you the the best way to learn is to open your your your thresholds to what you don't understand.
你
You
知道吗？
know?
当你处于一个并非什么都懂、需要努力理解的环境中时，学习速度是最快的。
Like you learn fastest when you're in an environment where you don't understand everything and you're struggling to understand it all.
任何去过其他国家、在异国生活并学习语言的人都知道，你是通过让自己置身于完全不懂的环境中，然后努力去理解来学会的。
Anyone who's been to another country and lived in another country and learned the language knows that you do it by putting yourself in a situation where you don't know what's going on and then trying to work it out.
这就是你快速学习的方式，想想生存模式。
That's how you learn fast, think Survival.
但除非你喜欢这种体验，否则这并不是一种愉快的经历。
But it's not a pleasant experience unless you love that kind of experience.
这并不一定是一种方便、快速、简单易行的语言学习方式。
It's not necessarily a convenient, quick, easy, simple way of learning the language.
我想人们尤其想要的是，我能想象得到。
What people want especially I can imagine, I can just imagine it.
比如在日本的学生，他们说‘我必须学好英语’，但他们对学习的态度未必正确。
Like a student in Japan who's like 'I've got to learn English' but they don't necessarily have the right attitude towards it.
他们只是在想：我该怎么学英语？
They just think how am going to learn English?
我需要理解每一个单词，因此我在听的时候需要看字幕。
I need to understand every single word therefore I need to read a transcript while I'm listening to it.
但我不会强迫人们用一种方式学习。
But I'm not going to try and force people to learn in one way.
我认为学习的方式有很多种，如果这是他们想要的方式，如果他们觉得这样舒服，那就让他们这么做吧。
I think there's lots of different ways to learn and if that's how they want to do it, if that's how they're comfortable doing it, let them do it.
另外，我是不是该谈谈我有个播客的事？
And also from my should I talk about the fact that I've got a podcast?
对，对。
Yeah, yeah.
我有自己的播客，我正努力让更多人收听。
The fact that I've got my own podcast, I'm trying to get as many people listening to it as possible.
所以，在理想情况下，我会为我播客中说的每一个字提供文字稿。
So I know that in an ideal world, I would provide a transcript of every single word that I say in my podcast.
但我也很理解。
But I also understand.
我相信，如果播客不是脚本化的，会更好。
I believe that I believe that it's better if the podcast is not scripted.
所以它只是即兴发挥，像正常真实的对话一样。
So it's just sort of improvised or spoken like a normal authentic
我的意思是语言的自发输出。
I mean the spontaneous output of language.
是的。
Yeah.
就像这样。
Like this.
就像我现在说话的方式。
Like the way I'm speaking now.
因为当人们嗯。
Because when people yeah.
语言的自发输出。
The spontaneous output of language.
当人们说话时，他们是自发地说的。
When people speak, they speak spontaneously.
在日常生活中，人们没有脚本。
They don't have a script in normal life.
人们开始说一句话，然后中途停下，再开始新的句子。
People start sentences and then they stop them in the middle and then they start new sentences.
他们在说话时会犯错并加以纠正。
They make mistakes when they speak and correct them.
他们开始一句话，然后意识到自己的句子哦和
They start sentences and then realise that their sentences Oh and
纠正它们。
correct them.
是的，没道理。
Yeah, don't make sense.
人们说话时常常说的没有逻辑。
Often people don't talk sense when they're speaking.
比如我，在这次采访中就是这样。
Like me, for example, during this interview.
你知道的？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
上次我跟本聊天时，我就跟他说，也许所谓的完美就是不完美。
It's just last time when I talked to Ben, I just tell him, is maybe what called perfection is imperfect.
什么？
Sorry?
完美。
Perfect.
完美就是不完美。
Perfection is imperfect.
是的。
Yeah.
因为它太完美了。
Because it's too perfect.
那些播客是被人逐字逐句朗读的，尤其是那些声音优美、语速恰到好处的人，这种过于完美的表现实际上并不算完美。
The those podcasts are made, like, verbatimly read by someone, especially by those someone with beautiful voice and the the the proper speed is too perfect to be perfect, actually.
对于学习者来说，这种过于规范的表现反而不合适。
It's too to be improper to be proper for this for the learners.
没错。
That's right.
我的意思是，学习者几乎不可能复现他们在那些有脚本的播客中听到的那种完美的英语口语水平。
I mean, it's almost impossible for learners to be able to reproduce that kind of perfect level of spoken English that they are going to hear in a podcast that has been scripted.
电影也是如此，除非演员真的非常出色，表现自然，而且剧本也非常真实。
And it's the same with movies unless the actors are really, really good and they're all natural and they're reading a really authentic script.
很多电影的剧本设计得太巧妙了，对学习者来说简直是不可能模仿的目标。
A lot of movies are so cleverly scripted that it makes their impossible targets for learners, you know.
学习者需要学习的是自然的口语，而不是背诵的台词，因此让他们听非剧本化的英语更有意义。
Learners just need to learn natural speech, not scripted speech, so it makes sense for them to listen to English that's not scripted.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但这让我这个做播客的人感到困难，因为我知道我的播客不应该有剧本。
But it makes it difficult for me as someone who makes podcasts because I know that my podcast shouldn't be scripted.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我又不希望它难到让他们听不懂。
But I don't want it to to be too difficult for them to understand.
我想让它易于理解。
I want it to be accessible.
所以你也许可以先制作播客，然后听并进行转录？
So probably you could first make it first make the podcast and then listen to them and transcribe?
我会这么做吗？
Will I do that?
会的。
Yeah.
我可以。
I could.
我当然愿意。
I'd love yeah.
我很想为我所有的播客配上字幕，但我不会花两个小时坐在那里做这件事。
I'd love to have transcriptions of all of my podcasts but I'm not gonna sit there for two hours.
也许可以给学生们提供一些提示和建议，帮助他们理解。
Probably could just give some tips and hints for them, for the students so they can understand that.
对。
Yeah.
我听过你那16种表达‘我喜欢它’的方式。
I've heard your, like, 16 ways to say I like it.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
你只是写下来了。
You just write down written down.
你已经把这16种表达方式写下来了，并解释了为什么用这个，它是什么意思。
You have just written down the 16 ways and how and explain why to use this one, what it means.
然后直接开始。
And just go.
够了。
That's enough.
嗯。
Yeah.
够了，别再
That's enough of
嗯了。
the Yeah.
我觉得是。
I think so.
我觉得这就够了。
I think that's that's enough.
嗯。
Yeah.
但我相信一定有人在想，真希望她能把每一个‘但’字都记下来，你知道的，除非我为此拿工资，否则我不会这么做的。
But I'm sure there are some people out there thinking, I wish I wish she wrote every But, single word down you know, until I get paid to do it, I'm just not gonna do that.
我这么做，你知道的，我自己掏钱。
I'm doing it, you know, I'm I'm paying for myself.
我实际上在付费
I'm I'm actually paying
嗯。
Uh-huh.
这个网站，哦。
The the website Oh.
用来托管我的，嗯。
To host my Yeah.
所以我没有赚钱。
So I'm not making any money.
我正在做所有这些
I'm doing all of
从它那里赚钱。
make make money from it.
怎么赚？
How?
请告诉我。
Tell me, please.
我可以告诉你。
I I can tell
我们之后再说好吧。
you after we should Okay.
嗯。
Yeah.
我真的很想知道。
I I really would like to know.
非常好的一个。
Really good one.
可能吧。
Probably.
我不知道。
I don't know.
而且你能 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 我只是吸一口气。
And and could you blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah I just breathe in.
嗯。
Yeah.
没关系。
It's fine.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那么，在播客中有什么可以改进的地方吗？
So is there anything that in podcast, it should be improved?
指的是整个播客领域吗？
In in podcasts in general?
不是。
No.
在英语教学中，将英语作为单一语言的播客。
The podcast in teaching English teaching English as a single language.
你是说好吧。
You mean okay.
那么，英语作为第二语言的播客如何才能更好呢？
So how can ESL podcasts be better?
变得更好，是的。
To be better, yeah.
它们需要被录得更好。
They need to be recorded better.
录音技术需要改进。
The sound recording techniques need to be improved.
市面上有太多这样的播客了。
There are so many out there.
我认为我的是最好的，因为音质比大多数都好。
I think mine's the best because the sound quality is better than on most of them.
显然，BBC的播客做得很好，因为它们使用了高质量的麦克风，非常专业。
Now obviously the BBC does good podcasts because they've got good quality microphones and they're very professional.
但很多业余的播客，音质在我看来根本不够好。
But a lot of the amateur ones, the sound quality is just not good enough in my opinion.
我认为他们用的是便宜的麦克风和糟糕的电脑。
I think that they're using cheap microphones, they're using rubbish computers.
我的意思是，好吧，我的意思是他们用的是像
I mean, okay, what I mean by that is they're using like
我可能理解这一点，因为我打算在中国电视台工作，所以我清楚好的设备和差的设备之间的区别。
I probably understand it because I want to work in the TV station in China so I know the difference between the good ones, good sets and the bad sets.
基本上，他们用的是内置廉价麦克风的普通PC电脑。
Basically, they're using PC computers with in built microphones that are really cheap.
廉价的麦克风。
Cheap microphones.
比如，你花300或400英镑买一台戴尔电脑，它附带一个带内置麦克风的耳机。
So for example, a Dell computer, when you buy it for 300 or £400 and it comes with a headset with a microphone built on it.
这种麦克风或许足以让你用Skype通话之类的，但如果你要录制播客，并希望全球成千上万的人收听，你就得投资一个像样的麦克风。
Now that microphone might be enough, know, good enough for you to speak on Skype or whatever but if you're actually gonna record a podcast that you expect thousands of people all over the world to listen to, you need to invest in a decent microphone.
所以很多播客内容非常好，包含大量真正有用的信息。
So a lot of them are very good podcasts and they contain lots of really useful stuff.
只是音质不够好。
Just the sound quality is not good enough.
您正在收听来自podcast.com的美国英语播客。
You're listening to the American English podcast from podcast.com.
听上去根本不是一种享受。
You know, it's just not a pleasure to listen to.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
需要一种音质良好、清晰的声音，这会让内容有趣上百万倍。
Need something that's got a good, clear sound, and that makes it a million times more interesting.
好的。
Okay.
除了音质之外，还有别的吗？
So besides the sound quality, what else?
我
I
我认为，做英语作为第二语言播客的人应该努力让内容更真实。
think that they should try people doing ESL podcasts should try to make them authentic.
所以
So
这意味着，如果他们编写脚本，就必须尽量让脚本听起来自然。
that means that they should if they script them, they've got to try and make that script as natural sounding as possible.
让它接近自然的口语。
Make it close to natural speech.
否则他们还需要做什么？
Else do they need to do?
他们需要让内容有趣。
They need to make them interesting.
让它变得有趣而愉快，因为很多播客都相当枯燥。
Just make it fun and interesting because there's a lot of them that quite boring.
但这些测试并不有趣。
But the tests are not interesting.
测试确实不有趣。
Tests aren't interesting.
没错，确实如此。
No, true.
是啊。
Yeah.
但为什么学习英语一定要是痛苦的经历呢？
But why should it be a painful experience to learn English?
说得对。
That's true.
我同意你的看法。
I agree with you.
我的意思是，我知道有些人对学习语言的态度就是认为它是一种考试，他们希望不断被测试。
I mean I know that's part of the attitude of some people towards learning the language is that it's a test and that they want to be tested constantly.
这是一种测试。
It's a kind of test.
就像学习是痛苦的，你
Like learning is painful, You
知道吗？
know?
我不知道这里的情况如何，但在中国，实际情况确实如此。
I I don't know what the situation is here, but in China, it's actually the the case.
因为除非你打算出国，否则不会像现在这样努力学英语。
Because unless you're going abroad, you won't study English as as hard as you are.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对于大多数要参加考试的人，比如要考托福或雅思的人来说，他们都会逼自己非常非常努力。
And for most of those people who are for most of the people who are, like, are going to take a test, are going to take it as a TOEFL or GI test to be, they just push them themselves very, very hard Yeah.
以便能取得一个不错的分数。
So that they could they could get a decent mark.
嗯。
Yeah.
然后用这张有分数的纸来说，我通过了。
And and use that paper with a mark on it to say, I pass.
嗯。
Yeah.
不管怎么说，这些标准。
The whatever, the the standards.
所以我就
So I
我在说英语之前。
I Before I speak English.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
但实际上，他们在刚抵达一个不同的大陆、新的土地时的头几周，会觉得自己是聋的。
But actually, the on their first few weeks when they got when they arrive when they arrive on a different land, different continent, they're kind of thinking, they are deaf.
他们什么都表达不出来。
And they they can't they can't produce anything.
他们甚至无法理解别人在谈论什么。
They just even they can't they can't they can't understand whatever or what others other talking about.
是的。
Yeah.
尤其是口音和人们的说话方式。
Especially the accent, the way people talk.
我记得本告诉我，没人会一上来就聊天气之类的话题。
And I just remember Ben told me that no one gonna speak like after what what what what what the weather is like.
然后才突然抛出一个问题，比如：你的爱好是什么？
And then after after that, and pop pop out a question like, what's your hobby?
是的。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
但老师们总是告诉我们，爱好可能是人们见面时，尤其是遇到陌生人时最常问的问题，他们会突然问：‘你的爱好是什么？’
But I try to teachers always tell tell to tell us that the hobby is probably the the the thing that people ask when they meet when they ask especially when they when they meet a stranger, they'll have a question pop out the question like, what's your hobby?
你喜欢什么？
What do like?
你喜欢看电视吗？
Do you like TV?
你喜欢看电影吗？
Do you like movie?
我认识一个人，嗯。
I know someone Uh-huh.
有个人真的在酒吧里问了这个问题，嗯。
Who actually asked that question in the pub Mhmm.
一段时间前。
A while ago.
我和一些朋友出去，那里有个家伙，他是男的？
I was out with some of my friends and this guy was there and he's A guy?
他说那
Said That
是个女孩。
was a girl.
他问的一个问题是：你的爱好是什么？
One of his questions was, So what's your hobby?
问其中一个女孩。
To one of the girls.
大家都笑了他。
And everyone just laughed at him.
主要是因为我们是英语老师，我们知道‘你的爱好是什么’这个问题其实是个敷衍的问题。
Mainly because we're English teachers and we realise that what's your hobby is kind of a fake question.
这是个愚蠢的问题。
It's a stupid question.
但这很奇怪，人们确实不会说‘你有什么爱好？’
But it's weird and no, people don't say 'what's your hobby'.
事实上，人们只有在一种被迫的互相了解情境下才会问‘你有什么爱好？’
In fact, the only time when people do ask 'what's your hobby' is in a kind of forced getting to know you situation.
比如，‘好吧，我们是一组人，必须在接下来的三十分钟内互相认识，所以你有什么爱好？’这时候你可能会问‘你有什么爱好？’但在自然、正常的生活中，当你第一次见到某人时，你更可能会说‘那你做什么工作？’或者‘你怎么认识的？’如果我见到你的一个朋友，我会问‘你怎么认识维基的？’
Like a kind of 'okay, we're in a group, we've got to get to know each other in the next thirty minutes so what's your hobby?' Then you might say 'What's your hobby?' But in natural, normal life, when you meet someone for the first time, you tend to say 'So what do you do?' or how do you know?' If I meet one of your friends I'd say how do you know Vicky?
或者‘你来伦敦多久了？’
Or how long have you been in London?
诸如此类的问题。
Those sorts of things.
我绝对不可能会问‘你有什么爱好？’
I certainly wouldn't say what's your hobby?
如果我们正在听音乐，我会说
If we were listening to music I'd say
你喜欢什么类型的音乐？
What kind of music do you like?
你喜欢R&B还是流行音乐？
Do you like R and B or pop music?
你喜欢这位明星吗？
Do you like the star?
blah blah blah
Blah blah blah
比如，如果我们听到红辣椒乐队，我会说：哦，是红辣椒乐队，你觉得怎么样？
If for example we hear the Red Hot Chili Peppers I'll say oh it's the Red Hot Chili Peppers, what do you reckon?
你想到红辣椒乐队了吗？
You think of the Red Hot Chili Peppers?
哦，对了，我去年 actually 看过他们的演出。
Oh yeah, I saw them last year actually.
你知道的，blah blah blah。
You know, blah blah blah.
就是这种类型的东西。
That kind of thing.
嗯，你不会说‘我觉得我不会说，你最喜欢什么类型的音乐？’
Well you wouldn't say I don't think I would say, What's your favourite kind of music?
我可能会说，你平时喜欢听什么类型的音乐？
I might say, What kind of music are you into?
但这是那种让你觉得‘唉’的问题，回答起来不舒服，因为你得说‘嗯，我喜欢……’，然后就得给自己贴标签。
But it's one of those questions where you go 'Ugh' it's not a nice question to answer because you go oh well I like' and then you have to pigeonhole yourself.
所以
So
是的，播客应该尽量自然。
yeah, the podcast should try to be natural.
它们应该尽量模仿真实的口语表达。
They should try to follow authentic speech.
它们应该有良好的录音质量。
They should be well recorded.
它们真的需要传授一些东西。
They need to actually teach something.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得。
I think.
好的。
Okay.
那么，你不喜欢在教学中使用播客的方面有哪些呢？
So what facts what factors do you don't like about using podcast in your teaching?
我的意思是，我的意思是。
I mean I mean
在我的课堂上？
In my tea in my classrooms?
无论是课堂上还是课后，比如把播客作为作业使用。
Both classrooms or after class, like, using podcast as assignment
对。
Right.
让他们听，让他们听一些播客，对吧。
To to let them listen to ask them to listen to some of the podcast Right.
然后回到课堂，开始讨论或做其他事情。
And then come back to classes and and start the discussion or whatever.
嗯。
Yeah.
我想说的是，用播客你可以做几件事。
I guess I mean, there a few things you can do with podcasts.
第一，你可以在课堂上使用它们，作为听力练习。
One, you can use them in class and set them as a listening activity.
另一个是，确实可以。
Another one, can actually yeah.
就像你说的，把它们作为作业布置，让学生听播客，然后回到课堂，我们再在课堂上讨论，比如。
Like you said, set them it as a homework task, listen to the podcast, come back to class, we'll talk about it in class, for example.
从教师的角度来看，课堂上使用播客意味着你必须围绕它设计一整节课。
From a teacher's point of view, using them in class means that you have to actually build a lesson out of it.
所以你得在家或教师休息室里反复听这个播客，然后根据它编写一节课的教学内容。
So you have to listen to that podcast a number of times at home or in the teacher's room and actually write a lesson based around that podcast.
因此，这对教师来说工作量大得多；而我们可以直接使用一本附带CD的出版教材，因为除非你制作的内容是针对学生的个性化、符合你个人风格、与时俱进，甚至涉及一些他们不敢在教材中出版的争议性话题，否则这些内容并不会比教材好多少。
So that's a lot more work for the teacher whereas what we could do is go to a book, a published book with a CD and just use the material there because it's not going to be that much better than the material that you produce unless you produce material that's personalised to the students, personalised to you, that's up to date, that's on a maybe a controversial topic that they're not bold enough to publish in a book.
从教师的角度来看，在课堂上使用播客实际上需要投入大量工作，因为你必须自己从头设计课程。
From the teacher's point of view, using podcasts in the classroom is actually quite a lot of work because you've got to build your own lesson out of it.
所以，仅从实际操作角度，让教师生活更轻松来看，这是一个缺点。
So that's a disadvantage just from a practical point of view of making the teacher's life easier.
把播客作为家庭作业布置的问题在于，这实际上意味着你对学生的完成情况失去了一定控制。
The problem of setting it to them as a homework task, it means really that it's just out of your control a bit.
如果你告诉他们‘好了，去听这个’，你并不能保证他们真的会去听。
If you say to them 'Okay, listen to this', you can't necessarily guarantee that they'll listen to it.
你也不能保证他们能在网上找到它，因为很多人根本不知道如何查找，甚至很多人根本不知道什么是播客。
You can't guarantee that they will find it on the internet because a lot of people just don't know how to find a lot of people don't know what a podcast is.
所以你得先解释那是什么，而且他们甚至不知道怎么发音。
So you have to explain what that is first and they don't even know how to pronounce it.
说‘postcard’。
Say 'postcard'.
很多人会说postcard，而不是podcast，因为podcast这个词很难发音。
A lot of people say postcard because not not podcast because it's difficult to say podcast.
我觉得这很普遍，对吧？
I think it's prevailing, isn't it?
什么？
What?
我觉得在这里很普遍，不是吗
I think it's prevailing here, isn't
？
it?
什么？
What?
这个播客。
The podcast.
单词“播客”。
The word podcast.
是的，是。
Yes, is.
但我的意思是，我教的一些学生在发音这个词时有困难，他们
But what I mean is that some students that I teach, they struggle with the word and they
可能是因为他们不常使用 iTunes。
Probably because they don't use the itunes very often.
是的。
Yeah.
而且他们还不熟悉这个词，因为从语音上讲，说“明信片”比说“播客”更容易，也许他们一生中说“明信片”的次数远多于说“播客”的次数。
And just they're not familiar with the word yet and because phonetically, it's easier to say postcard than podcast and just maybe they've said the word postcard in their lives a lot more than they've said podcast.
他们不理解“播客”这个词。
They don't understand the word podcast.
播客。
Podcast.
客。
Cast.
Pod 是什么意思？
Pod What does it mean?
把 iPod 和广播结合起来。
IPod and broadcast and mix them together.
是的，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
他们不明白这一点。
They don't get that.
不管怎样，总之，作为一节课结束时的作业，让他们说这个词有点困难。
Anyway, anyway, so it's a tricky thing to say to them as a homework task at the end of a lesson.
好吧，我希望你们做的是访问这个网站，找到这个播客，听一下，然后回答这些问题。
Okay, what I'd like you to do is visit this website, find this podcast, listen to it, answer these questions.
他们会说：呃，呃。
They're gonna be like, uh-uh.
播客？
Podcast?
你知道的。
You know?
然后你必须实际带他们去操作，带他们去网站上看。
And you have to say then you have to actually physically take them through and go look on the website.
就在这里。
Here it is.
这就是播客。
That's the podcast.
然后点击这个按钮，你就会进入这个页面。
It's And click this button and you'll get this page.
没错。
That's right.
然后点击订阅，订阅即可免费获取，各位。
Then click subscription, subscribe and that's free for you, you guys.
然后点击并返回所有播客，回到这个专辑，点击获取全部，他们就能获得所有播客内容。
And then click and go back to all the podcast and go back and go back to this album and click get all, they will get all of the podcast.
没错。
Exactly.
但对他们来说，要求太高了，你知道的，尤其是对于初学者来说。
And it's just too much too much for them to to expect, you know, especially if they're low levels.
而且有些播客并不适合初学者，因为他们实际上……是的。
And then the podcast some of the podcast is not so suitable for the starters because they they actually Yeah.
他们什么都得不到。
They can't get anything.
是的。
Yeah.
他们从播客里什么都学不到。
They can't get anything from podcast.
一个学生告诉我，他不喜欢这个播客，因为他刚学英语。
One of the students just told me that I don't like the podcast because maybe I'm a starter of learning English.
所以实际上，我从中学不到任何东西。
So actually, I get nothing from it.
因为那些我能听懂，我能听懂。
Because those I could understand, I could understand.
这个我听不懂。
This I couldn't understand.
这个我也听不懂。
I couldn't understand either.
所以实际上没有任何进步。
So there's no progress actually.
所有初学者能做的就是一边读文字稿一边听，只能寄希望于运气好，别觉得无聊。
All they all that starters could do is read is read a transcript and listen at the same time and just hope for the best and not get bored, you know.
因为他们一边读一边会想：这个我听不懂。
Because they will read it and they'll be like, don't understand this.
他们不明白这一点。
They don't understand this.
他们甚至可能跟着文字走，学习单词的发音，但这会是一段令人沮丧的经历，因为他们只会想：‘我不懂这个。’
They might even follow the words and learn how the words sound but it will be a frustrating experience because they'll just be thinking don't understand this'.
实际上，如果他们足够勇敢地坚持下去，他们就会学会。
Actually if they were bold enough to keep going, they would learn.
他们最终会学会的。
They would eventually.
如果他们面对一个二十分钟的播客，完全不知道内容是什么，但手头有文字稿，除此之外别无他物，他们依然能从中学习，因为最终他们会开始拼凑信息，填补空白，逐渐掌握一些片段，自己慢慢弄明白。
They'd learn by if they had a twenty minute podcast and they had no idea what it was about but they had a transcript and they just had that and nothing else, they would learn from it because eventually they would start to piece together, they'd fill in the gaps, they would learn little bits, they'd work it out eventually themselves.
首先他们会想：他们在谈论什么？
The first thing would be what are they talking about?
就是这样。
That's it.
对话的主题是什么？
What's the topic of conversation?
他们只能依靠自己知道的少量词汇，通过语调等线索来推测理解。
And they have to just work it out from little words that they know and guessing from the tone of voice and things like that.
但没错，你说得对。
But yeah, you're right.
首先，播客对他们来说太难了。
For starters, podcasts are just too difficult.
对那个来说太难了。
Too difficult for that.
对他们来说简直是浪费时间。
Waste of time for them really.
我们希望学生能自己制作播客。
We'd like to have the students make their own podcasting motion.
作为作业或小组任务提交。
Hand them in as a coursework or group work.
我觉得这是个好主意。
Well I think it's a good idea.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这是个很棒的主意。
I think it's a great idea.
唯一的问题是谁会听呢？
Only problem is who's gonna listen to it?
他们的同龄人或同学吗？
Their peers or their classmates?
你是说在互联网上？
You mean on the internet?
在互联网上。
On the internet.
所以你是打算把它放到网上？
So you're gonna you you put it on the internet
我的意思是，你可以限制谁可以访问这些材料，比如只有这个网站或这个网络里的英语学习者才能访问，对吧。
and I mean you could you could like have have a limitation on the who could have access to those materials so that only the England I I mean, only the English of this website of this network Right.
可以访问这个播客，从而收听他人的作品。
Could have access to this podcast so they could listen to other people's work.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
是的，是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
我觉得这是件好事。
I think that's a good thing.
确实是，确实是。
It is, it is.
我的意思是，这毫无疑问。
I mean there's no doubt about it.
把他们的口语表达发布到网上，让人们可以收听，这会是件好事。
It would be a good thing to publish their speaking on the internet so that people can listen to it.
我知道有几个播客只有学生在讲话。
I know there are a few podcasts that have just students speaking.
嗯。
Mhmm.
实际上，它们被听了好多次。
And they get listened to a lot actually.
有些播客的播放量比我高，这让我很烦。
Some of them more than mine, which is annoying.
我认为学生可能会喜欢这种符合他们水平的内容，这会让他们更有信心，因为他们也能这样说话。
Probably the students would love something like their from their level, I think, that will make them more confident because they can speak like this.
我可能可以做到。
I probably, could.
我可以达到这个水平，而且他们也有勇气开口说话。
I can achieve this level, and and they are bold enough to speak.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
因为老师的播客对他们来说总是太完美了。
Because teachers' podcast are always too perfect for them.
我听不懂。
I I couldn't catch it.
我做不到，我就是达不到你的水平。
I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't, like, achieve your level.
所以他们可能只是觉得有时候自己懒，有时候是因为我都没法达到这个水平，所以我只是往后一靠，听着而已。
So probably they were just think they're sometimes they're lazy and sometimes they're like because I couldn't achieve this list level because though I just laid back and listened.
所以他们想要更实际一点的内容？
So so they want something more achievable?
嗯。
Yeah.
所以他们希望，在我的播客里，我应该更频繁地采访学校里的学生吗？
So they would like so do you think that in my podcast, I should interview students in the school more often?
嗯。
Mhmm.
真的吗？
Really?
嗯。
Mhmm.
对。
Right.
我记下来了。
I'm writing this down.
我确实这么认为。
I I do think so.
尤其是对我们一些人来说，我不知道。
Especially for some of us I don't know.
但中国人呢，我不想用‘炫耀’这个词，但那些英语水平很高的学生，他们很喜欢稍微展示一下自己的英语。
But Chinese people, they're I don't want to use the word, like, show off, but some of the students who are from much higher level of English, they would love to, like, a little bit show off their English.
没错。
That's Yeah.
让他们更自信地开口说。
Make them more confident of speaking.
而且他们会很乐意别人听他们说话。
And they will love to love to have other people listen to them.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
是的，我的意思是，我知道让学生录制并发布自己的播客有很多好处，因为这能激励学生真正去行动，他们意识到会有人听，所以会付出更多努力。
Yeah, mean I'm aware of the advantages of having students record their own podcasts and publish them because it motivates the students to actually do and they realise that they're going to be listened to so they put that extra bit of effort in.
如果没人听，你说这些话的意义何在呢？
And really, what's the point of saying something if no one's listening?
如果你意识到有人在听，这真的能帮助你提高英语水平。
It really helps your English if you realise that people are listening.
我知道我是英语母语者，但因为知道每天都有人听着我说的每一句话，这让我变得更加自信了。
I know that I'm a native speaker of English but it's helped me to become a much more confident speaker because I know that every day, there's people listening to every word I'm saying.
因此，在我看来，我已经成了一个非常出色的英语演讲者。
And so as a result, I've become in my mind at least a really good speaker of English.
我是说，一个优秀的公众演讲者，现在我能很自如地面对一大群人讲话，而我觉得一些没做过这份工作的朋友，如果站在一群人面前，不会像我这么自在。
I mean a good public speaker but I can speak to a room full of people quite well now whereas I think some of my friends who haven't done this job would stand up in front of a group of people and they be as comfortable as me.
这是因为长期以来一直有人在听我说话，这让我更有信心，因为你必须迎接挑战。
And that's because I've had for quite a while people listening to me and so it's made me more confident because you rise to the challenge.
所以我认为，给学生一个听众，也能让他们迎难而上。
So I think giving students an audience would make them rise to the challenge too.
所以我觉得这是个非常好的主意。
So I think it's a very good idea.
但技术问题确实是个障碍。
But the technical things, the technical issues are the that's like a barrier actually.
我知道技术本应将我们所有人联系在一起，让我们的生活更轻松，但为了让技术真正简化生活，我们首先必须付出大量努力，克服技术带来的困难。
So I know that technology is meant to bring us all together and make our lives easier but in order for the technology to make our lives easier, we've got to work really hard and struggle with the technology first.
所以这总是事与愿违的。
So it's always counterproductive.
一旦你弄清楚了技术的使用方法，它就会让生活变得轻松。
Once you manage to work out how the technology works, then it makes your life easier.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但在你达到那个阶段之前，要弄清楚如何使用技术，生活会相当艰难。
But before you get to that point, your life is pretty difficult working out how to use the technology.
所以这确实是个大问题。
So that's a big big deal actually.
一个大问题。
A big problem.
你有没有在托福考试中听过一篇叫做‘一体化遥控器’的文章？
That's exactly have you heard one passage in TOEFL test which which one is called the all in remote control remote controller?
没有。
No.
就是我觉得这是一个口语题，文章叫‘一体化遥控器’。
Which is I think it's it's a speaking task, and the passage is called all in one remote controller.
一体化遥控器。
All in one remote controller.
对。
Yeah.
因为文章说，一体化遥控器应该能让生活更轻松，因为你把所有功能都集中在一个遥控器里了。
Because it it it says that it says that the all in one remote controller should make life easier because you get all those stuff in one remote controller.
你可以控制电视、空调，没错。
You can control the TV, the the conditioner Yeah.
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