63. 德国与英国的文化认同——帕科·埃哈德访谈第二部分

但说实话，确实有慕尼黑啤酒节。

But to be honest though, there is the Oktoberfest.

是的。

Yes.

你会看到很多这样的画面。

You see quite a lot of images.

正如我所说，但那是巴伐利亚。

Like I said, but that is that that is Bavaria.

对。

Right.

那确实是德国的一部分，而且确实存在。

That that is a part and it does exist.

它是德国的一部分。

It is a part of Germany.

但确实。

But Yeah.

这是德国的一个特点。

That's one thing about Germany.

我们直到1871年才真正成为一个国家。

We we weren't really one country until 1871.

对。

Right.

各个小地区之间都非常不同。

And all little regions are very, very different, from the other.

是的。

Yeah.

你有很多多样性。

And you you have a lot of variety.

如果你去莱茵地区，人们非常开朗、活泼，喜欢聚会。

You have if you go to the Rhine area, people are very jolly, very lively, love to party.

如果你去施瓦本地区，那里的人则更加严谨，更像传统意义上的德国人。

You go to, you know, to to to Swabia there, much more, you know, very, you know, precise, much more German in a way.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他们都是出色的工程师，但如果你家的花园小矮人离街道近了两英寸，他们就会起诉你。

And very great engineers, but also they'll sue you if your garden gnome is two inches too far towards the street or whatever.

这简直太较真了。

Can't That is of anal in

所以有很多多样性，其实并没有一个特定的笑话，但这是一个刻板印象。

So but lots of variety and there's not really one certain joke, but that that is one stereotype.

所以，是的，就是这样。

So the the there's that okay.

再列一遍这些刻板印象，然后我们再把它们抛到一边。

Just again, just listing the stereotypes before we kind of throw them away.

是的。

Yeah.

你刚才提到什么？

What did you mention?

他们没有幽默感，冷漠且缺乏情感。

That they they have no sense of humor, they're cold and have no emotions.

是的。

Yes.

极其高效。

Extremely efficient.

极其高效且守时。

Extremely efficient and punctual.

对吧？

Right?

守时，当然了。

Punctual, of course.

我之前迟到过，这让我很惊讶，到

I was late earlier surprised, to

说实话。

be honest.

但你知道，不，我并没有那么惊讶。

But, you know, no, I wasn't that surprised.

你不是瑞士人。

You're not Swiss.

我的意思是，你知道的。

I mean, you know

这倒是真的。

That's true.

不是说，我们来看看还有什么。

Not that Let's see what else.

你是英国人。

You're English.

你有很多

You have lots of

说说看。

Tell me.

嗯，就是那套皮裤的事情。

Well, yeah, the Lederhosen thing.

我们还知道关于德国人的其他什么吗？

What else do we have about the Germans?

当然是战争，你总是会提到这个。

Well, the war, of course, you're always Yeah.

整个战争的事情。

There's the whole war.

有一种德国士兵的形象，就是那种

There's there's there's the kind of this the German soldier kind of image that

是的。

Yes.

如果

If

你遇到一个德国人，你就会觉得

you meet a German, you kind of

而且，是的，我们在节假日会穿白袜子和凉鞋。

And, yeah, we wear you know, on holidays, we wear white socks and sandals.

没错。

That's right.

对。

Yeah.

有点儿。

Kind of

然后啊，是的。

And put oh, yeah.

当然了，我们会在早上五点就把沙滩毛巾放在日光浴躺椅上占位。

Of course, we put our beach towels onto sun lounges to reserve them at 05:00 in the morning.

对日光浴位置的竞争简直不合理，是的。

Unreasonably competitive about sunbathing areas Yes.

在地中海度假胜地。

In Mediterranean holiday resorts.

是的。

Yes.

这在一定程度上是真实的，我对此感到厌恶和羞愧。

And that is partly true and I hate it and I'm ashamed of it.

尽管我在一家英国酒店工作过，现在英国人也这么做，是的。

Even though I've worked in an English hotel and the English do just the same now Yeah.

我认为我们最初是……

What I think we started

事实上，德国人在这方面比英国人更擅长。

The fact is the Germans are better at it than the English.

不。

No.

我们只是起得更早而已。

We just get up earlier.

但这现在真是一件糟糕的事。

But that's that's a horrible thing now.

有时候，你知道，你去游泳池，发现所有位置都被预订了，但一个人也没有。

Sometimes you, you know, go to the pool and everything's reserved and nobody's there.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他们只是早上五点下来，把毛巾铺好，然后累得直到凌晨两点才醒，接着又跑到泳池来。

Because they just come down at five in the morning, put their towels out, and then they're too knackered to wake up till 02:00 and bloody come there to the pool.

所以别让我谈这个了。

So don't get me started doing that.

所以，总的来说，我觉得我们已经说得很全面了。

So, by that's but more or less, I think we've got it covered.

我觉得，不知为何，许多关于德国人的刻板印象在很多国家都是一样的，尤其是我们刚才说的那些。

I think we know, like, for some reason, a lot of these German stereotypes are the same in many countries that particularly what we've already said.

但在英国，我们特别喜欢认为德国人没有幽默感。

But in England, we we love the idea that in Germany, you don't have a sense of humor.

对。

Yeah.

这个国家里这种说法特别流行，因为我们非常自豪自己有幽默感。

It's kind of like a really popular stereotype in this country because we like love we're we're very proud of the fact that we've got a sense of humor.

我们认为你他妈的确实需要它。

We think that we You bloody need it.

是的。

Yeah.

我们确实需要它。

We do need it.

是的。

Yeah.

我想是吧。

I guess.

就像嗯。

It's like yeah.

但不知为什么，我们特别自豪于这种想法，觉得我们在喜剧方面独占鳌头，你

But we we we're for some reason very proud of this idea that we kind of we've got a monopoly on comedy, you

你知道的。

know.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，那种事情。

You know, that that that kind of thing.

但好吧。

But okay.

那么，哪些刻板印象是真实的，哪些不是呢？

So which of the stereotypes true and which are not true?

我认为，其中一些是有道理的，我觉得大多数刻板印象都有一点真实性，比如你说德国人非常有条理，一方面这可能过度了，也可能不过度；一方面这意味着我们的公交车准点，事情通常都会按你预期的方式进行。

I think, some of them are I think I think there's probably kernel of truth to to to to most of them, but like if you say Germans are extremely orderly, that is on the one hand when this can be an extreme or not an extreme, on the one hand that means that our buses run run punctually, things are normally, done the way, you would expect.

另一方面，他们对哪怕迟到一分钟也毫不宽容。

On the other hand, they're very can be very unforgiving about even being a minute late.

所以本质上，你可以有好的秩序，但也可以把它推向极端。

And so is that basically it's in the everything you can you can have order that is good and you can take it into the extreme.

我认为，我们没有幽默感这种刻板印象是错误的。

I think, I think the stereotype that we don't have a sense of humor Yeah.

这是完全不对的。

Is, is wrong and everything.

你得弄清楚你到底是什么意思，因为德国人和其他民族一样，也喜欢笑和享受乐趣。

Think you have to look at what you really mean because, Germans like to laugh and have fun like any other nation.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为我们非常重视事物的实用性。

I think we we value things functioning a lot.

所以，当涉及到应该正常运作的事情时，我们不想拿这些开玩笑。

So basically when it comes to things that should work, you know, we we don't we don't wanna laugh about it.

我们只想把事情做完。

We wanna get it done.

那就是

That's

我们能就这一点举个例子吗？

Can we just look at an example of that for a moment?

比如，你提到德国人可能非常重视事物的功能性。

Like, you're talking about in German Germans maybe value things functioning well.

那我们就举个具体的例子吧。

So let's just take an example.

假设你去酒吧的洗手间，那里有一台干手器。

Let's say if you go into the toilet in in the pub or something and there's a hand drying machine.

是的。

Yeah.

比如在德国或日本的洗手间里。

And in let's say in a in a a bathroom in Germany, in in Japan.

在德国的洗手间里，假设干手器有一天坏了，使用者会有什么反应？

In a bathroom in Germany, the hand dryer let's say for example, one day the hand dryer doesn't work, what might be the reaction of the of the people who use it?

我

I

一个英国人可能会开个玩笑，或者干脆走开搓搓手。

think in an English person, what normally if there was a friend with them might crack some sort of joke about it or just simply walk and swipe their hands.

嗯，会这样。

Well, it'd

这就很典型了。

just be like typical.

是的。

Yeah.

真是的，是的。

Bloody Yeah.

我可能会抱怨。

I would probably complain.

是的。

Yeah.

真典型。

Typical.

你明白吗？

And you understand?

可能会抱怨一下，是的。

Would probably moan Yeah.

然后出去，回到啤酒旁，什么也不做。

And then go out and get go back to the beer and do nothing.

德国人呢，如果我们谈论平均普通人，也就是比较刻板印象的德国人，他们肯定会去找酒吧老板投诉。

German person, let let's if we talk about the, you know, the the average people, know, rather stereotypical people, a German person would most definitely go to the owner of the the bar and complain.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为一般来说，当然不是总是这样。

I think in general, not all the time, of course.

我的意思是，基本上，我觉得谈到刻板印象时，有些确实是真实的。

I mean, basically, I think when you talk about stereotypes, some of them are true.

好吧，基本上你所说的并不是说这个国家的每个人都是那样的。

Well, basically, what you're saying is not really that everybody in the country is like that.

我觉得更准确的说法是，那种重视秩序、清晰、效率以及事物正常运转的人。

I think it's a better way of putting it is that a person who is like that, a person who values order and clarity and efficiency and things working and all of that.

这样的人在德国会非常开心。

Somebody who values that will be very happy in Germany.

我觉得这样说更好，因为我本人并不太守时。

I think that's a better way of of putting it because I'm not very punctual.

我对很多事情都比较放松，因为我也在其他国家生活过。

I'm quite relaxed about many things because I've lived in other countries too.

但也有其他人可能因为这些原因而非常享受在德国的生活。

But there are other people who just might enjoy living in Germany a lot for these for for these reasons.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错，就是这样。

What it was yes.

人们肯定会抱怨，因为他们希望恢复秩序。

People would definitely complain because they they want they want the order back.

秩序对德国人来说非常重要。

Order is very important to to Germans.

基本上，东西一旦乱了，你就得把它放回原位。

Basically, something is out of order and you have to put it back.

你不会只是容忍这种情况。

It's it's not like you just tolerate that.

你会直接去投诉，直到问题得到解决。

You just go there that you complain until this is fixed.

是的。

Yeah.

然后，你知道，它又恢复正常了。

And, you know, and and then it works again.

你会狠狠地责备那个人，直到问题解决，因为

You and you give that person hell until it is fixed because

没错。

Right.

如果每个人都视而不见，那就什么都无法正常运转了。

That way everything functions because it was everybody just, you know, turns a blind eye.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

人们只会放任不管，事情就会任由它恶化、烂掉。

People just will and things will just, you know, go to go to wait, go to hell.

我的意思是，现在你会怎么称呼它，是的。

I mean, now would you call it Yeah.

在英国，如果干手器坏了，就像你所说的，英国人可能会说：‘哦，真是典型的。’

In in The UK, if the hand dryer wasn't working, like you said, the English people will probably be like, oh, bloody typical.

干手器坏了。

The hand dryer is not working.

是的。

Yeah.

他们会为此开个玩笑，但不会去向经理投诉干手器的问题。

Well, they'd make some sort of joke about it, but they wouldn't then go to the the manager and complain about the hand dryer.

他们只会用牛仔裤擦干手，然后继续做自己的事。

They would just wipe their hands on their jeans and then just carry on.

但结果是，在英国，很多东西都不太好用，事情总是有点儿运转不畅，经常出现一些在德国可能不会有的低质量现象。

But the result is that in The UK a lot of stuff doesn't work and things kind of run slightly badly and there's a lot of this poor quality of stuff happening that you might not get in Germany.

有时候，你可能会觉得你其实很欣赏这种状况。

And sometimes sometimes you would think that you actually appreciate.

你如此重视幽默，以至于有时你会觉得，正因为东西不工作，才给了你一个调侃的理由。

You value humor so highly that you sometimes think you appreciate things not functioning because they give you a reason to be humorous about them.

在德国，我真的讨厌人们太多抱怨。

In in Germany, I and I do I do hate when people complain too much.

我的意思是，我不是在极端情况下，但我真的很不喜欢我们国家这一点——我们无法对此放松。

I mean, I don't in in the extreme, I really dislike that about my country that we can't relax about that.

一切都必须像应该的那样，秩序必须维持，这件事必须马上修好，直到它完成之前我都不开心。

Everything needs to be, you know, like it should be, and the order must be maintained, and this must be fixed now, and I'm not happy until it happens.

如果你去德国酒店和英国酒店，比如在纽约或任何地方，我前英国女友总是跟我说这一点，所以这不只是我这么想。

Now if you go to German hotels and English hotels in New York or wherever, always and my English ex girlfriend used to tell me that all the time, so it's not just me thinking that.

你会发现，同样是三星级酒店，英国的和德国的，德国的那家一定会好很多，因为如果东西坏了，人们就会找经理大闹一场。

You will always find that if you have a three star hotel British, three star hotel German, the German one will be a lot better because people simply give the manager hell if things don't work

是的。

Yeah.

这就是为什么事情能正常运转。

Which is why things work.

这可能是其中一部分原因。

That's maybe part of this

但它们真的让人烦。

But they're really annoying.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好。

Yeah.

事情能顺利进行。

Things work.

在德国，也许我们可以从这一点得出一个真相：在德国，事情往往进行得非常好，但另一方面，人们也更容易感到烦躁。

It's in Germany, maybe one truth that we could, I guess, glean from this is that in Germany, things tend to work very well and yet on the other hand, people tend to be a bit more annoyed.

我，是的。

I Yeah.

确实如此。

It does.

但我们这里讨论的是一个极端情况。

But we're talking about an extreme here.

我的朋友们都很年轻，我们可能不会去抱怨，但年长的人会去大加抱怨，真的会乐此不疲地发牢骚。

Of my friends are young and we don't we might tell them and your older gents would go and really complain and, you know, have a field day complaining.

是的。

Yeah.

而我们年轻人可能只是去那里，但仍然会确保有人去解决这个问题。

And we just younger people might just just go there, but probably would still take care that something happens about it.

是的。

Yeah.

但不会像一些普通的德国人那样那么烦人。

But would not be so obnoxious as some average Germans can be.

但话说回来，我认为每个国家的普通人都是。

But then again, I think average people in every country are

对。

Yeah.

你可以想象，很多英国人会非常烦人。

You could imagine the sort of a lot of British people would be incredibly annoying.

我们也喜欢抱怨和牢骚不断。

And we love complaining and moaning about things too.

好的。

Okay.

这种刻板印象的事情真的很复杂。

It's it's pretty complicated business, this stereotype stuff.

好的。

Okay.

当然，关于幽默的一点是，说德国人没有幽默感显然是错误的。

So certainly the I one thing about humor, this idea that German people don't have a sense of humor is obviously wrong.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他们喜欢笑，也喜欢拿各种事情开玩笑。

Because they love laughing and they love kind of making jokes about things.

我认为，这更多关乎人们有多看重事物。

That that it I think for me it's more a case of how much people value things.

在英国，我们可能比一些其他国家更重视幽默。

So in The UK, we value humor, maybe higher than in some other countries.

我们对它非常看重。

We've got a very high value on it.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这对你身份认同至关重要。

I think it's it's essential to your identity.

你的身份中，幽默占据了非常特殊的位置。

You it's I mean, you you make it you give it a very very special place in your identity.

你

You

尤其是现在，经过一些非常成功的电视节目之后，我们非常喜爱这些节目。

Especially now after certain really successful shows on TV, which we we we love very much.

是的。

Yeah.

比如《蒙提·派森》系列节目，还有

Like the Monty Python shows and

是的。

Yeah.

哦，对的。

Oh, yeah.

以及其他喜剧节目。

And other comedy shows.

我小时候就看这些节目。

I grew up with that stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

我们真的为这些节目感到自豪。

We we're really proud of those programs.

但这也充分强化了我们对英国幽默的这种自豪感。

But so that has also in full that also has reinforced this thing about British humor that we're so I proud

不过，我认为你必须区分两件不同的事情。

think, however, that you you have to differentiate between two different things.

有一种喜剧是关于什么才好笑。

There's a sense of comedy of what more what's funny.

而幽默感则更多是指轻松对待，一笑置之。

And a sense of humor means, think is more a matter of of taking taking it easy and laughing something off.

如果发生了糟糕的事，你还能笑着看待它。

If something bad happens that you can laugh about it.

我特别喜欢王子的这一点。

And I love that about The Prince.

不管发生什么糟糕的事，你依然能看到事情积极的一面。

Whatever bad happens, you can still, you know, see see the lighter side of it.

是的。

Yeah.

而这正是美妙之处。

And that is and and that is beautiful.

我认为，英国的另一个重要特点是，这不仅仅是我的看法。

And and the important thing I think also about Britain, think it's well, it's not only me.

这是一位名叫凯特·福克斯的社会学家，我想。

It's a sociologist Kate Fox, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

她写了《观察英国人》。

She wrote watching the English.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

一本很棒的书。

Great book.

她说这有多么普遍。

She says makes it how ubiquitous it is.

它无处不在。

It's everywhere.

幽默感。

Sense of humor.

你跟一个英国人聊上一分钟，一定会听到某个笑话。

You can't speak to to an English person for a minute without there being some joke in it.

是的。

Yeah.

有些是，你知道的，以一种有趣的方式看到事情的另一面。

Some you know, seeing the other side of things in a funny way.

它确实是。

It's Yeah.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我觉得这很棒。

I think it's I think it's great.

但我也觉得，德语中有一种说法来自佛教。

But also, I think sense of humor in German there's actually a saying in Buddhism.

幽默是demantrodstiblacht。

Humor ist demantrodstiblacht.

幽默就是即使如此你还是会笑。

Humor is if you laugh anyway.

我觉得，当坏事发生在你身上时，幽默就体现出来了，是的。

Like, I think it's that humor proves itself when something bad happens to you Yeah.

但你还是会笑。

And you laugh anyway.

基本上，你通过看到事情更轻松的一面，通过嘲笑可能发生在我身上的糟糕事情，来应对生活的严酷。

And basically that you cope with the harshness of life by seeing the lighter side and by laughing at the horrible things that might happen to you.

这才是真正的幽默。

That is real humor.

也要笑自己，笑人类的处境。

Laughing about yourself too, laughing at the human condition.

那是因为每个人都能逗人发笑，但真正重要的是能接受笑话，或看到事情有趣的一面，让生活更易承受。

That is that is because everybody can be funny, but actually taking something taking a joke or or seeing the funny side of things to make a life more livable.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这才是真正的幽默感。

I think that is what real a real sense of humor is.

我认为，英国人在这方面非常出色，因为他们确实能以幽默的态度看待很多事情。

And I think in in that way, the the Brits are great because you you do see lots of things or take them with a sense of humor.

是的。

Yeah.

有时候，这也可能是一种回避真实情感的方式。

Sometimes also, you know, it can be a way of avoiding actual feelings.

是的。

Yeah.

但这很有趣。

But That's that's interesting.

我能先说完吗？因为前几天我的朋友兼经理丽贝卡跟我说了类似的话？

Can I just just finish up with because I think because my my my friend and and manager, Rebecca, said something like this to me the other day?

她也是德国人。

She's she's German too.

她说，这意味着他们不懂得娱乐或生活方式，我不知道。

And she said, which means they don't understand fun or way of being I don't know.

但这意味着他们开不起玩笑。

But what it means is they can't take a joke.

我认为这就是

I think that's

德国人的特点。

that's the Germans.

对。

Right.

我认为德国人开不起玩笑。

And I think Germans can't take a joke.

我觉得是的。

I think yeah.

当然，你不能一概而论，但我确实觉得，当英国人以幽默的方式对待战争或其他事情时，情况也类似。

Of course, you can't, generalize, but I do think when it come when it comes when the English spoken fun at as well for the war or whatever.

我认为，作为一个民族，我们太缺乏安全感了。

I think as a nation, we're too insecure as a nation.

我们基本上不知道自己是谁。

We don't know who we are, basically.

这说来话长，我真没法详细展开。

It's it's I mean, it's a it's a long story that I can't really go into.

但我觉得，从根本上说，作为一个民族或国家，德国自1871年才真正存在。

But I think, basically, because we're as a nation or as a as a nation state, as Germany, we only existed since 1871.

对。

Yeah.

然后突然间我们就在那里了，英国拥有一个帝国，法国也非常强大。

And then all of a sudden we were there and England had an empire and France were really big.

我们觉得，我们也在那儿，我们也想要尊重。

We're like, we're here too and want we want respect.

我们就像是飞机上的新人。

We were the new guy on the plane.

基本上，在1870年，如果你问一个人你的国家是什么，他们会说巴伐利亚人、施瓦本人，或者我是普法尔茨人之类的。

Basically, in 1870, if you ask somebody what is your nation, they would have said Bavarian or Swabian or I'm from the Palatinate or whatever.

他们从来不会说我是德国人。

They would have never said German.

我的意思是，当时确实有努力想要统一成一个德国。

I mean, there were, you know, efforts to make it one Germany.

而且说实话，长期以来，许多自由派和左翼人士、思想家和诗人们都支持这一想法，是的。

And to be honest, for a long time, by very liberal and leftist people and, you know, thinkers and poets Yes.

但最终，真正完成这一统一大业的是军国主义的普鲁士。

Who tried to and in the end, it was militarist Prussia who actually did the whole thing.

对。

Right.

但基本上，人们认为存在某种叫德国的东西，也就是德语区。

But, basically, there was a notion that there is something like Germany, you know, wherever German is spoken.

但如果你在南德，当地人说话的方式，根本听不懂北德人说的话。

But basically, if you're in Southern Germany, people, the way they spoke, wouldn't have understood somebody in Northern Germany.

而且我觉得，至今仍存在一种深深的不安全感：我们究竟是谁？我们是否得到了足够的尊重？

And basically, I think there's still, I believe, a big insecurity of who are we really and do we get enough respect.

我认为正因如此，我们作为一个国家很难接受玩笑，因为在国家层面上——听起来有点奇怪——我们真的缺乏自信。

And I think because of that, we can because I think because of that, we have difficulties as a nation to take a joke because we simply, on the national level, which sounds a bit weird, but we don't have the confidence really.

现在可能有很多德国人不同意我的看法。

Now there might be lots of people, lots of German people maybe disagreeing with me.

这不是个人或个体层面的问题，但我觉得作为一个国家，我们更像一个孩子。

It's not a personal or individual thing, but I think as a nation, we're we're like a child more or less.

尤其是现在，这是历史上第一次，我们拥有一个民主统一的德国，位于朋友之间，边界无可争议。

Especially now, it's the first time ever in history ever that we have one democratic unified Germany in in the middle of friends with with undisputed borders.

我们之所以如此重视秩序，正是因为我们的历史充满混乱。

We're because that that is the one big thing with us, I think, why we love order because our history was chaos.

在欧洲中部，人们不断遭受来自四面八方的入侵。

In the middle of Europe, people invited invading right, left, and center.

在1780到1789年间，如今的德国由1789个大小不一的微型国家组成，彼此之间常年征战。

In 1780 into '89, what is now Germany consisted of 1,789 tiny and slightly bigger little countries, and everybody constantly fighting with each other.

三十年战争使德国人口减少了大约35%左右。

Thirty years war reduced Germany by, I don't know, 35% or something.

那简直是一片疯狂与彻底的混乱，我认为这正是我们如此珍视秩序的原因——因为我们历史上从未拥有过它。

It was just it was just madness and pure chaos, which I think is why we all we we value order so highly because we didn't have it historically.

这些观念深深植根于民族心理之中。

And those are things that persist in national psyche.

我认为，关于‘我们究竟是谁’这个问题，如今是历史上第一次，一个统一的德国出现了，人人都说：‘这就是德国的边界，一切都很好。’

And I think also that, now this who are we really well, like I said, now, first time, one Germany, nobody well, everybody says, you know, these are Germany's borders and everything is fine.

我们不会再想：‘哦，我们还想再多占一点地盘。’

We don't go, oh, we want a bit more and more to these.

我们不会那样做。

We don't do that.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我们身处朋友之中，我们是一个国家，是的。

And, we're in the middle of friends, and we're country Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

国家。

Countries

你你。

You're you're

邻国。

bordering countries.

突然之间，我们不必再担心那么多，我们是一个整体，我们是民主的，一切都很好，我们真正达到了应有的状态。

And all of sudden, we don't have to worry about in much, and we're one and we're democratic, and everything is really we're really where we should be.

而且我们在经济上非常出色。

And we're great economically.

我们表现得很好。

We're doing well.

我的意思是，我们是勤奋的人。

I mean, we're we're we're hard workers.

我们很聪明。

We're we're we're clever.

我们说过，我们有很多优势。

We said we have lots of great things going for us.

而突然之间，我们就在那儿了，第一次像孩子一样。

And while all of a sudden, we're then we're just here and for the first time, we're like a child really.

突然间，我们现在在这儿，我们到底是谁？

All of a sudden, we're here now and who the hell are we?

我们现在在做什么？

And what are we doing now?

我只是觉得，你知道，我们仍然需要去发现。

It's just I think that, you know, we still have to find out.

我们必须为自己创造新的故事、新的身份，想想我们想成为什么样的人，而不是再纠结于我们过去的样子。

We have to make up new stories about ourselves, new identities, who we want to be and just stop worrying about we we used to be.

我们不必非得是个爱管闲事、追求秩序的人，我们可以依然保留一些类似的特点，但我觉得我们可以重新塑造自己。

We don't have to be an annoying, order loving we can be something still kind of like that, but we can I think we can renew ourselves?

而且我认为，我们其实可以变得相当酷。

And I think we actually we can be pretty cool.

是的。

Yeah.

我这么说的时候，其实我曾经长期逃避这种想法。

And me saying that, I ran away from that for a long time.

现在我觉得，吉姆，这对我来说甚至没那么糟。

I think now, yes, it's not even that bad to me, Jim.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，经历了六十年前的那件事之后，一定非常艰难。

I mean, it it must be very tough after what happened sixty years ago.

一定真的很——我一定曾经是

It must have been really I must have been

真的明白。

really know.

我的意思是，

Mean,

一个国家能从那样的境况中走出来，显然，那一切都已成为过去。

to to for a country to come out of that, obviously, it's all completely in the past now.

但一个国家要面对那段战争历史，一定非常艰难，你知道的，战争和

But it must be very difficult for a nation to deal with that, you know, the war and

那种感觉

that feeling

我的意思是，在英国，有个老说法，现在虽然还偶尔用，但主要是在战后初期，尤其是到八十年代为止，就是如果你遇到一个德国人，你会说‘别提战争’。

like what's the what I mean, in the in The UK, there's this old thing which doesn't really I mean, it still is used a bit these days, but was mainly sort of in the immediate post war period, particularly up until, like, the eighties, which is where if an English person, if you met a German, you would say, don't mention the war.

别提战争，因为一提到战争就会让人非常不舒服，特别尴尬。

Don't mention the war because it would just be really, really uncomfortable and really awkward to like mention the war.

还有著名的《福尔蒂旅馆》喜剧剧集中的一集，巴兹·福尔蒂就说‘别提战争’，然后当然，他被敲了脑袋。

And there's that famous episode of Faulty Towers, the comedy show, where Basil Faulty sort of says, don't mention the war and then of course, he gets a knock on the head.

是的。

Yeah.

他发疯了，结果还是提到了战争。

And goes crazy and he does mention the war.

还有鸡皮疙瘩吧。

And goosebumps right.

真是个精彩的剧集。

So to Beautiful episode.

这真的很有趣。

It's really funny.

是的。

It is.

太棒了。

It's fantastic.

但这种说法在多大程度上是合理的呢？

But to what extent is that valid?

‘别提战争’这句话合理吗？

Is that phrase don't mention the war valid?

提战争是可以的吗？

Is it okay to mention the war?

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，好吧。

I mean, well, okay.

这又是一个非常宏大的话题。

There's again, that's a very large topic.

是的。

Yeah.

我们没那么多时间了，帕科。

We don't have that much time, Paco.

我想我们大概快说到结尾了。

I think we're probably coming to Yeah.

这段话的结尾。

The end of this.

但最后，关于战争这个话题，因为我认为这可能是最重要的事情之一。

But just last, finally, on the subject of war because I think it's probably one of the most important things.

对。

Yes.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

德国人对这场战争有什么样的感受？

What's what's this what's the sort of feeling in Germany about the war?

我认为这是德国人对英国人感到不满的少数几件事之一

I think that is one thing that Germans are of the few things that we're a bit pissed off with the British for

是的。

Yeah.

他们总是提到世界，因为如果你遇到普通的英国或英国游客

This this mentioning the world because they if you have your average English or British tourists

是的。

Yeah.

他们并不是很有见识的人。

They're not very educated ones.

是的。

Yeah.

他们就是对这件事感到恼火。

They were just, you know, annoyed Germans with that.

我以为‘别提战争’只是那部剧里的一个说法或引用。

I I thought that don't mention the war was only a phrase or only a quote from that series.

是的。

Yeah.

我不知道原来真的有人会这么说。

I didn't know that people said that anyway.

我不确定他们是不是因为这部剧才这么说的。

I don't know if I think they may say it because of the show.

我觉得他们确实会这么说。

I I think I think they do.

我不太确定。

I'm not I'm not sure.

我可能完全错了。

I might I might be completely wrong.

有一件事是，我认为战争刚结束时，德国人试图遗忘，因为那可能是人类历史上最严重的罪行。

Now, the thing one thing is that I think immediately after the war or war, Germans tried to forget because those are probably the the largest crimes against humanity ever.

那里发生过最可怕的事情。

The most horrible things ever happened there.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你当然可以说，别忘了比利时和刚果，那里杀害了大约一千万到一千五百万刚果人，还有许多

I mean, of course, you can always say, never forget the Belgians and The Congo killed like 10 to 15,000,000 Congolese and lots of

红色高棉，还有斯大林，等等

Khmer Rouge and, you know, Stalin and

是的。

Yeah.

还有英国和他们的帝国。

And and the Brits and the Empire.

我们确实也做了我们该做的部分

We we did our fair share

直到六十年代，你们在肯尼亚还做过一些恶劣的事。

Until of the sixties, you did when you say a few nasty things in Kenya.

我们在布尔战争中也做过很多可怕的事。

We did lots of terrible things in the Boer War.

是的。

Yeah.

但关键是，我的意思是，你不能，这些事情是没法比较的。

But but the thing is, I mean, you can't I mean, it's not it's not you can't compare these things.

这并不是谁更胜一筹。

It's not it's not the premiership.

哦，你知道的，我们在种族灭绝上比你们更在行。

Oh, you know, we're better than you at genocide.

这不应该是这样的。

It's not it's it's it shouldn't be that.

我的意思是，我认为德国的纳粹大屠杀之所以独特，在于它是有系统的。

I mean, I think, the German the the German where the holocaust was singular in so far as it was systematic.

这在某种程度上是一种非常德国式的、荒谬的系统性计划。

It was just a silly systematic plan in a way very very German.

那就是，是的。

That's the Yeah.

可怕之处就在于此。

Horrible thing about it.

这仅仅是命令、系统和计划。

It's just order, system, plan.

这就是我们如何有系统地试图灭绝一个民族，这本质上就是一种根深蒂固的邪恶，是的。

This is how we did systematic eradicate or attempted eradication of a people, which is just so in in inheritable and intrinsically evil Yeah.

这简直无法形容。

That it's it's indescribable.

然而，这一切是在战争结束后发生的。

Now that happened after the war, however.

实际上，那些人做了这件事，却从未真正感到内疚，我认为。

The people actually did it, never really felt bad about it, I think.

有些人是被迫的，是的。

And some who are forced to Yeah.

很可能确实如此。

Probably probably did.

这正是参与决策的那些人的谜团所在。

That's the that's the mystery of the the the people who are actually involved in the decision making.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，

Like,

你知道，

you know

我的意思是，很多人为此幸运地被美国人和英国人处决了。

I mean, lots lots were then luckily executed by the Americans and and British.

但我觉得，从德国人民的整体层面来看，之后没有人真正面对过这个问题。

But I think generally on the on the the level of of the German people, nobody dealt with that afterward.

国家被摧毁了。

The country was destroyed.

每个人都想着，哦，让我们建起这一切，然后赚大钱。

Everybody went into, oh, let's, you know, build this up and then make lots of money.

而且在经济上，我们也确实创造了经济奇迹。

And economically, we did as well the economic miracle we did.

这太惊人了。

It's amazing.

没有人真正谈论或思考过它。

And no one really talked about or thought about it.

我妈妈的历史课本结束于1914年，我想，或者是一战结束的1918年。

My mom's history book ended in, 1914, I believe, or '18 at the end of end of the the first world war.

那里什么都没有。

It was not nothing there.

到了1968年，你可以对它们说很多负面的话。

In '68, then, you can lot say lots of bad things about about them.

当时出现了学生运动、左翼革命。

Know, there was this, student revolutions, leftist revolutions.

他们做的一件事是说：等等。

And one thing that they did was say, hang on a minute.

那里发生了一些事情。

Something happened there.

我们想谈谈这件事。

We'd like to talk about that.

到底发生了什么？

What the fuck happened?

为什么我们不讨论这个问题？

What would why are we not talking about this?

正是从那时起，我们开始正视自己的过去，而且我们确实做了很多。

And that's when it kind of started that we started dealing with our power with our past, and we've done so a lot.

从那以后，我知道在我的学校，我整个求学生涯都在学习关于大屠杀的内容，这真的很可怕。

Well, since then, I know in my school, I I learned about the Holocaust for for, you know, all my school life, and it's it's horrible.

我什么都没做过。

I've never done anything.

我努力做个好人。

I tried to be a good person.

我有很多犹太朋友。

I was I I really I have lots of Jewish friends, friends.

我只是努力做个简单的好人，宽容，诸如此类。

I try just try to be a good simply a good person, tolerant, and and and all of that.

但基本上，我一生都被教育要为一些我根本没做过的事感到内疚。

But basically, all my life, I've been taught to feel guilty for something I I simply Yeah.

你根本没做过。

You haven't done.

你与那件事毫无关系。

You had no involvement in that.

就是这样，我从小就被教育要这样，当我妹妹10岁的时候，她是个非常敏感的女孩。

That's that's it it is a a weird situation that we I've been taught on my my my little sister when she was 10, and she's a very sensitive girl.

我的意思是，她10岁的时候就被给看了大屠杀遇难者的照片，一个小孩，她

I mean, she got shown pictures of holocaust deaths when she was 10, a little girl, and she

只是

was just

是的。

Yeah.

摧毁了她的内心。

Destroyed her inside.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为，当你面对这种情况时，你绝不能简单地说，算了，别管了。

And it's I think when you have to deal with this, you you you you mustn't just go, yeah, never mind that.

你看，你知道，这非常重要。

You see, you know, it it is very important.

但我对此感到很难过。

But I I feel bad about

她这一代，或者你们这一代，或者上一代，都被强加了这种可怕的负担。

She's been lumbered as a generation or your generation or the generation before were just lumbered with this terrible kind of

是的。

Yeah.

这些事情是其他人根本不愿意去做的。

Things that other people other people didn't and don't even wanna do.

我宁愿学习犹太人在德国取得的伟大成就，而不是关于犹太人的苦难。

I I I would have much rather learned about the great things the Jews did in Germany without without Jewish people.

如果没有犹太人，德国或许会少一半趣味，也没那么聪明，是的。

Germany would have been half the fun, half as as clever and Yeah.

我更希望多了解那些方面。

I would have preferred to learn a lot about that.

好吧，现在我们回到一件事，你知道的，别提战争。

Well, now one thing to get back to, you know, don't mention the war.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我觉得这很难处理，因为当我们谈论英国人时，我们说的并不是提及战争本身。

I think that's very difficult to deal with because basically, we're not talking about mentioning the war when we talk about Brits.

我们说的是拿战争来激怒德国人。

We're talking winding the Germans up with the war.

是的。

Yeah.

基本上，你们输了战争，我们打败了你们，我们赢了。

Basically, you lost the war, we beat you, we won.

在英国，我们认为我们赢得了战争。

We we think in The UK that we won the war.

你知道，这太蠢了。

You know, it's so so stupid.

就像，没人真正赢。

Like, no one won.

嗯，其实没有。

Well, not really.

其实没有。

Not really.

我的意思是，你确实得到了美国人和俄罗斯人的帮助。

I mean, you did have help from the Americans and Russians.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

说实话，之后你们就没那么顺利了。

And to be honest, after that, you didn't fare so well.

那是你们最后一次胜利了。

That was your last Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我们彻底完蛋了。

We we we were totally screwed.

我们实际上也输掉了这场战争。

We we lost the war in a way as well.

我们被他们坑得惨不忍睹。

Like, we were totally fucked by them.

是的。

Yeah.

但你知道，我想说的是，如果我只算半个有道德的人，而我确实是个有道德的人，是的。

But you know I said, the the thing is the way what I mean, the point I'm trying to make is that from a more if if I'm only half a moral person, and I I am a moral person Yeah.

当然，我很高兴我们输掉了战争。

Of course, I'm I'm happy that we lost the wars.

你们打败了我们，真是太好了。

It's great that you beat us.

你们基本上是解放了我们，这很棒，因为我并不把自己与纳粹联系在一起。

It's great that you liberated us, basically, because I associate my I don't associate myself with the Nazis.

我爱所有反对他们的人。

I I I love everybody who was against them.

是的。

Yeah.

但我在学校学到的是，我最近才注意到，当我谈论这一切时，我会说‘我们’在战争中做了什么。

But I'm taught in school, basically, I noticed this recently, when I talk about all that, I say what we did in the war.

但当我谈到施陶芬贝格和那些试图刺杀希特勒的人时，我会说，‘他们’做得太棒了。

And then when I talk about the Stauffenberg and all the people who tried to kill it, I said, oh, what they did is great.

我提到战争时用‘我们’，这到底是为什么？

I say we when I talk about the why the fuck?

我可以这么说吗？

May I say that?

为什么会这样？

Why the fuck is that?

这很可怕，因为我从小就被潜移默化地养成这种说法。

And it's horrible that, basically, I've been brought up to, you know, subconsciously to say that.

是的。

Yeah.

现在，如果你让我谈这个，这真是件怪事，因为没人喜欢失去一堵墙。

Now now basically, if you wind me up with a it's it's a very weird thing because nobody likes to lose a wall.

你知道，你会觉得这是种羞辱，很糟糕。

It's, you know, you feel like it's humiliated and and and bad.

是的。

Yeah.

但与此同时，这也是件神经质的怪事，如果你说，哦，我们赢了你们。

At the same time, and that's the neurotic weird thing about it, you have to basically, if you say, oh, we beat you.

我们在墙这边把你们打得落花流水。

We kicked the shit out of you in the wall.

我得说，是的。

I have to say, oh, yes.

我知道。

I know.

非常感谢。

And thank you very much.

是的。

Yeah.

这真是太奇怪了。

That is just the weird thing.

对。

Yeah.

你你你

You you you

但我们不

you But we don't

你得开心地被揍得落花流水，是的。

You have to have you happy to have them to have the kick shit kicked out of you Yeah.

这很奇怪。

Which is weird.

是的。

Yeah.

而且是的。

And Yeah.

我认为这根本无法应对。

Impossible to deal with, I believe.

我们不知道。

We don't know.

在英国，这真是令人作呕。

In The UK, it's sickening actually.

每当英格兰和德国踢足球时，小报上总会出现一些二战的比喻。

Whenever, like, England play against Germany in in football, they you get in the tabloid newspapers, there's some second world war reference.

是的。

Yeah.