70. 语言与音乐（与弗朗西斯·邓肯合著）

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

在法语和西班牙语中，根据你使用的主语，动词有非常多不同的形式。

It's in French and Spanish, there are, many, many different verb forms depending on the subject that you use.

比如他、她、它、他们、我们、你等等。

So he, she, it, they, we, you, stuff.

这些不同的词尾，你们叫什么？

And all these different endings, what do call that?

变位。

Conjugations.

变位、词尾、根据主语变化的动词形式，还有虚拟式，因为现在时和其他所有时态都有虚拟式形式。

Conjugations, endings, verbs depending on and so subjunctive because you got the present and you got all different all the different tenses have got a subjunctive form.

很复杂。

Complicated.

那么，既然你玩音乐，还学过第二语言。

Then, right, establishing that you play music and you've learned a second language.

接下来的问题就是，你如何才能在音乐上变得出色，或者如何才能把英语学好。

The next question then is really how can you become great at music or how can you become great at English.

所以我正在试图找到学习英语和学习语言之间的一些相似之处。

So I'm trying to find some kind of comparison between learning English and learning a language.

我前几天一直在想这个问题，然后列出了我认为学习音乐和学习语言之间相似的几点。

And what I did is I was thinking about this the other day, and I've just written down a list of things that I think are similar between learning music and learning language.

所以，我列在最上面的第一点是：你必须热爱音乐。

So the first thing I've got here on top of the list is to love you have to love music.

如果你愿意把吉他或其他乐器学得很好，你就必须热爱音乐。

If you're willing to learn how to play guitar or another instrument very well, you have to have a love of music.

你知道，就像对。

You know, like Yeah.

而且你会发现，我们这里的学生中，那些表现最好的，从第一次见面就能看出来。

And you see that the students that we have, the ones who who really do best, you can just see from the first time you meet them.

他们实际上，除了需要之外，真的很喜欢它。

They actually, apart from the fact that they need it, they really actually love it.

他们玩文字和其他东西时真的很快乐。

They did have fun playing around with words and stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

以某种方式学习交流本身就有一种令人愉悦的地方。

There's something enjoyable about just learning to communicate in a certain way.

是的。

Yeah.

你要享受玩弄语言的乐趣，就像你必须享受演奏音乐一样。

You enjoy playing around with language, just like you have to enjoy playing music.

你必须融入音乐。

You have to live music.

你必须让音乐融入你的生活。

You have to have music in your life.

比如对我而言，每当我下班或离开家，都会带着我的随身听或MP3播放器。

Like for example, for me, whenever I leave work, whenever I leave home, have my Walkman, my MP3 player.

我一直在听音乐。

I'm listening to music all the time.

到了晚上睡觉的时候，我也会放着音乐入睡。

And in the moment when I go to sleep at night, I have music playing when I'm going to sleep.

每天早上一醒来，我第一件事就是放音乐，还会不自觉地用手指敲打桌子。

I play I put music on first thing in the morning when I wake up, and I tap my fingers on the table without thinking about it.

所以我的脑子里一直回响着音乐。

So I've just got music running around in my head.

我完全生活在一个音乐的世界里。

I'm just living in this world of music.

我认为英语学习者也必须真正生活在一个英语的世界里。

And I think probably the learners of English, they have to live in a kind of world of English really.

也许如果他们来英国学习，就能置身于这样一个英语环境中：早上打开电视看英文新闻，坐公交车时读英文报纸，诸如此类的事情。

Maybe if they come to England to study, they can kind of live in this English world where they put the TV on in the morning and they can watch the news in English or they read the newspaper on the bus or these sorts of things.

周围到处都是英语，360度无死角。

It's just sort of English three sixty degrees around.

除了正式学习之外，英语还贯穿于他们的日常生活。

As well as studying it, they just have it going on in their lives.

我刚刚在想，因为我从不使用随身听之类的东西。

I was just thinking that that because I don't use Walkman anything

就像那样。

like that.

是的。

Yeah.

但实际上，无论我去哪里，脑子里通常都会有一首歌在回响。

But actually, I wherever I'm going, I normally got a song going in my head.

是的。

Yeah.

它就在我脑子里。

It's just in my head.

对。

Yeah.

所以也许学习也是同样的道理。

So maybe that's the same with with with learning as well.

即使你那时没有戴随身听，它也在播放。

Even if you're not at that time, you've got the Walkman on.

是的。

Yes.

你只是在用英语思考，或者在想着它。

You're just thinking in English or just thinking about it.

是的。

Yes.

而且它一直在

And it's going on in

让英语在你脑海中不断回响。

your Letting the English run around in your head.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yes.

多听一些。

Listen to it a lot.

显然，如果你想在音乐上有所成就，就必须多听音乐。

Obviously, if you're going to become good at music, you have to listen to music a lot.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, absolutely.

是的。

Yes.

所以我的意思是，如果我想成为一名出色的鼓手，我就会多听其他优秀鼓手的演奏。

So I mean, if I want to become a great drummer, then I would listen to other great drummers.

英语也是如此。

And it's the same with English.

你要多听英语，才能学好它。

You need to listen to English a lot in order to to get good at it.

而且当你变得优秀时，你可能会

And you might because when you're becoming great, you might

以不同的方式聆听那些优秀的鼓手。

be listening to the great to the drummers in different ways.

你可能会说，哇。

You might be like, oh, wow.

他那里用的是一种三连摇摆节奏之类的。

He's doing sort of triple wiggly beat there or something.

是的。

Yeah.

或者你只是在听整个乐队，而没有刻意去想，只是纯粹享受那种摇摆感。

Or you might be just listening to the whole band and without thinking about it, you're just really enjoying the swing.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

学英语也可能是一样的，你其实正在听英语，然后惊叹：哇。

So it could be the same with English that you're actually listening to English and wow.

那个家伙刚用的那个词，我前几天在课堂上刚听过。

He just that guy just used that word I heard in class the other day.

是的。

Yeah.

或者从一个完全不同的角度去看那个小结构。

Or look at that little structure he or in a completely different way.

你可能只是在听，

You might just be just kind of listening to it and

想着去感受它的整体节奏，或者只是

thinking about showing like the general rhythm of it or just Or just

思考它的内容

thinking about the content

。

of it.

是的。

Yeah.

当我住在日本时，我经常听当地的广播。

When I lived in Japan, I used to listen to the radio, local radio.

我房间里有个小收音机，我会打开它。

I had a little radio in my room and I'd switch it on.

我会听当地的广播。

I'd listen to local radio.

听不懂他们在说什么。

Didn't understand anything they were saying.

但我很喜欢听日本人聊天的节奏。

But I loved just listening to the rhythm of Japanese people chatting.

我真的非常喜欢。

I just really, really liked it.

但我从来没有真正学好日语。

And I never really learned Japanese very well.

但我确实觉得我感受到了那种节奏、发音，实际上，

But I do feel like I've got a sense of the rhythm and the pronunciation and the Actually,

因为，你知道，和孩子在一起，是的。

because, you know, with kids Yeah.

我相信你也认识一些有孩子的人。

And I'm sure you know people who've got kids.

而且，这其实发生在我那位远房侄女身上，或者说是凯文的孙子来着？

And and it's quite quite it happened with my my great niece and or or was it Kevin's grandson or something?

不管怎样，关键是他们发展到某个阶段时，说话的声音听起来就跟成年人一模一样。

Anyway, the the thing was that they get to a point where they start what they say, the sound of what they say is exactly like what an adult says.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

比如说，就像说‘嘿，你怎么样？’

Of say, just like saying, oh, how you doing?

他们却说‘你怎么样？’

And they say, how are doing?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

我表亲的孩子们就是这样。

My my cousin's children do that.

他们会突然说出一些听起来像成年人说的话，但他们其实并不明白这些话的意思。

They they will just come out with phrases that sound like something an adult has said, but they don't really know what they're saying.

我只是想说，这个孩子只是在发出声音。

But I'm just saying, not this this kid was just making a noise.

只是些噪音。

Just noises.

有正确的节奏。

In the right rhythm.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，也许确实如此，你在学会单词之前，先会捕捉到语言的节奏和声音。

Well, yeah, maybe there's a point to that, that you kind of pick up the rhythm and the way the language sounds before you even pick up the words and things.

是的。

Yeah.

所以倾听真的很重要。

So That listening is really important.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对。

Absolutely.

我完全同意这一点。

I I totally agree with that.

我这里有一份很长的清单。

I've got a massive list of things here.

要一直练习，每天都要练习。

Practice all the time, every day.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你想出色地演奏音乐，你就需要练习，每天都要演奏你的乐器，就像你需要每天练习说英语一样。

If you if you wanna play music brilliantly, you need to practice, you need to play your instrument every day in the same way you need to practice you need to speak English every day too.

和别人一起做。

Do it with other people.

不要只是一个人独自做。

Don't you don't just do it on your own.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，演奏音乐，是的。

By doing it, I mean, play music Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

或者交流，和别人交谈。

Or or communicate, talk to other people.

当然。

Definitely.

是的。

Yeah.

坐在满是人的房间里一起演奏音乐，或者你可以遇到其他人并用英语和他们交流。

Sit in a room full of people and play music together, or you can meet other people and speak English to them.

实际上可能是两者兼有，不是吗？

Probably a bit of both actually, isn't it?

也想自己单独做一点，只是为了

Wanna do a bit by yourself too just to sort of

是的。

Yeah.

独自学习，不受任何干扰，但之后你也会把它们结合起来。

To study it on your own without any distractions, but then you kind of bring it collectively too.

向大师学习。

Learn from the masters.

所以那些做得好的人就是这样。

So that's kind of people who do it well.

所以我听像斯图尔特·科佩兰和米奇·米切尔这样的人，我觉得他们是出色的鼓手。

So I listen to people like Stuart Copeland and Mitch Mitchell who I think are brilliant drummers.

米奇·米切尔。

Mitch Mitchell.

我学鼓的时候，我的意思是，我还在学鼓。

And I when I was learning the drums, mean I'm still learning the drums.

但几年前我刚开始学鼓时，我会直接模仿我觉得很厉害的那些人。

But when I was learning the drums a few years ago, I would just copy the people who I thought were brilliant.

我敢肯定英语学习也是类似的。

And I'm sure it's similar in English.

你需要找到，但

You need to find But

这取决于你的水平如何，我不是说你，但你知道，对很多人来说这相当有挑战性。

it depends how good you are because I don't mean you, but you know, that's pretty challenging for a lot of people.

是的。

Yes.

有些东西我一直在试着模仿。

You know, There's some things I've been trying to copy.

我不是说我能做到。

I'm not saying I could do it.

但你知道吗

But you know what

我的意思是？

I mean?

它是这样的，有点

It's so it's it's kind

但我的意思是，我的意思是

of But I mean what what I mean

我只是觉得，也许并不总是要向大师学习，而是可能向比你强的人学习，或者向那些做你不会做、但你喜欢的事情的人学习。

What just thinking is that maybe it's not always from the masters, but maybe it's just from someone who's better than you or someone who does something that you don't do that you like.

是的。

Yeah.

你必须受到他人的启发。

You've got to just sort of be inspired by other people.

而且，是的，你得听别人说英语，觉得他们说得真好。

And, yeah, you've got to listen to people speaking English and you think they speak really well.

我想成为那样的人，或者从他们身上汲取灵感。

I want to be like that or just take inspiration from them.

你可以在网上找到这样的人，不只是你认识的人，网上还有很多英语说得非常好的名人，你可以把他们当作榜样。

And you can find people on the Internet, not just people you know, but there's people on the Internet like famous people who speak English really well and you can look up to them.

比如史蒂夫·乔布斯在做演讲时的样子。

People like Steve Jobs in his presentations that he does.

他非常鼓舞人心，而且非常善于运用语言。

He's very inspiring and he uses language in a very effective way.

还有像巴拉克·奥巴马这样善于沟通的人。

And even someone like Barack Obama who is a very good communicator.

这些人可以成为你的灵感来源或衡量标准。

These are people that you can use as inspiration or as a benchmark.

同样地，你可以聆听伟大的音乐家，心想：真希望我也能做到那样。

In the same way, can listen to great musicians and think, well, I'd love to be able to do that.

我会注意旋律和节奏这些方面。

I've got things like pay attention to melody and rhythm.

所以在音乐中，你必须知道你演奏的是哪些音符，以及你使用的节奏是什么。

So obviously in music, you've got to know what notes you're playing and you've to know what rhythm you're doing.

同样地，在英语中，你必须注意使用正确的语调，因为这会影响你句子的含义，同时也要注意在词语和句子中使用正确的节奏。

In the same way in English, you've got to be careful that you're using the right melody because that will affect the meaning of your sentence and that you're using the right rhythm in the words and sentences you use.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Definitely.

很简单。

Straightforward.

这和我之前说的‘是的’有关联。

And that kind of connects with what I was saying before about Yes.

这个

The

婴儿首先会模仿节奏。

The baby picks up the rhythm first.

我认为，就像我之前跟你说过的，语法学习和成人学习是不同的，他们会出现一些错误，这些错误几乎无法改变，因为它们源于母语，非常根深蒂固。

And I think, like I was saying to you earlier on about, you know, say with grammar learning and then we teach the other one with adult learning and they've got these errors which are like almost almost unchangeable because they come from their first language and they're really strong.

所以，你会想，你说的某件事真的不重要吗？

And so, you you think how can one thing you say it doesn't matter.

你知道，你根本改不了，这并不重要。

Know, you're not going to change it doesn't matter.

但另一方面，你可能会想，与其过多地纠结语法规则，不如只是去听，去感受语调、旋律，是的。

But on the other hand you think okay well if you rather than thinking too much about the rule in the grammar book just just listen to it and hear the melody, hear the tune Yeah.

去感受它，让这种感觉深入你的内心。

And feel it in your stomach and just get the feeling of it.

也许这样你才能真正掌握它。

Then maybe that's the way you'll get to do it

而不是去研究那些规则，那种科学性的内容。

rather than Rather than studying the rules, the sort of science of it.

是的。

Yeah.

只是，我觉得

Just Well, I think

这对一些人有效，但对其他人就不行，你知道的。

it works for some people, but doesn't work for, you know.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

想想你刚才说的，旋律和节奏真的很关键。

Think what you said, the melody and the rhythm is really Yeah.

你得意识到这一点。

You got to be aware of that.

你得打开你的耳朵。

You got to open your ears.

耳朵和肚子

The ears and the stomach

对于英语来说真的很重要。

are really important for Yeah.

语言？当然。

Language Absolutely.

选择你喜欢的风格。

Choose the style that you want.

比如，如果你在学打鼓，你可能会演奏摇滚、重金属、雷鬼、放克或爵士。

So for example, if you're learning to play drums, you're gonna play like rock, heavy metal, reggae, funk, jazz.

同样地，如果你在学英语，你真正需要英语的目的是什么？

In the same way if you're learning English, why do you really need English?

你是需要用来社交聊天，还是需要商务英语，或者需要学习如何撰写特定内容，或者学习法律英语？

Do you need just to chat to people in a social way or do you need business English or do you need to learn how to write certain things or use legal English?

你得明确自己想学哪种英语，然后朝着那个方向努力。

You got to choose what type of English you want and then go for that.

别试图什么都学，因为你根本做不到。

Don't just kind of try and do everything because you won't really be able to do it.

就选择你的风格并坚持下去。

Just choose your style and stick with it.

所以如果你想要摇滚乐，那就去学摇滚乐。

So if you want rock and roll and you do rock and roll.

当然，最终你会达到能够掌握所有风格的水平。

Obviously, you get to a point eventually where you're able to do all of them.

当你足够出色时，就能改变风格并变得灵活。

When you're good enough, you're able to change your style and be flexible.

但你必须清楚自己想演奏哪种音乐，或者想说哪种英语。

But you've got to be bear in mind what kind of music you want to do or what kind of English you want to speak.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我还得学点什么才能读懂它。

What else I've I've got learn to read it.

所以显然，你需要学习阅读英语，但你也需要学习阅读乐谱。

So obviously, you need to learn to read English, but you also need to learn to read music.

哇。

Wow.

但你做得到。

But you can do it.

你可以在不懂如何阅读的情况下使用英语，也可以在不懂如何阅读乐谱的情况下使用音乐。

You can you can use English without knowing how to read it, and you can use music without knowing how to read it too.

但我们知道，最优秀的音乐家，所有顶尖的爵士音乐家都能识读乐谱。

But we know that the best musicians, all the best jazz musicians can read music.

他们并不常这么做，但他们能做到。

They don't often, but they can.

所有作曲家，我们历史上最伟大的作曲家，都能使用乐谱等工具。

All the composers, all the greatest composers we've ever had, they were able to use notation and so on.

那挺有趣的，那是另一种流行音乐。

That's a fun that's a different one which sort of pop music.

但毫无疑问，它会给你带来额外的维度，或者至少，我不知道吉米·亨德里克斯是否能做到。

But for sure, it gives you an extra dimension or at least, I mean, I don't know if Jimmy maybe Hendrix could.

我的意思是，也许他做不到，但他依然是最伟大的，你知道的，所以这有点儿。

I mean, at least But I mean, maybe he couldn't and he'd show the greatest, you know, so it's kind

我觉得亨德里克斯至少能看懂吉他指法谱或和弦之类的东西。

of I reckon Hendrix could read like guitar tab or chords and things.

好的。

Okay.

所以至少作为吉他手，你可能需要知道，可能需要学习如何读和弦的指法和音符，是的。

So some So at least as a guitarist, you might need to know, you might need to learn how to read the fingering notes for chords and things Yes.

就是这种东西。

Like That sort of thing.

但无论如何，它肯定能为你带来额外的维度。

But in any case, sure, it could probably give you an extra dimension.

是的。

Yes.

能帮助你。

Could help you.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，在英语中学习阅读比在音乐中更重要。

I mean, it's more important in English to learn how to read than it is in music.

但除了学习如何阅读，你还需要学会即兴演奏，并享受其中的乐趣。

But as well as learning how to read it, you need to learn how to improvise it too and just have fun with it.

所以你需要学会在没有任何乐谱或音乐提示的情况下自己演奏。

So you need to learn how to just do things without any any reading or any music given to you.

你只需学会即兴发挥。

You just learn to improvise.

我认为这在英语学习中非常重要。

And I think it's really important in English.

创造新词。

Invent words.

不，就只是讲笑话。

No, just make jokes.

就在没有任何指导或规则的情况下说话，这就是流利吧？

Just sort of without being given any instructions or any guidelines, just speak It's fluency, isn't it?

研究它的历史。

Study the history of it.

所以研究音乐的历史，也研究语言的历史，你知道的？

So study the history of music and study the history of the language, you know?

观看现场表演。

Watch it happen live.

所以去观看现场音乐，同时也去观察人们在真实情境中使用英语。

So go and see live music and also go and observe people using English in real life situations.

比如，去

Like, go and

去看一场单口喜剧表演。

see a stand up comic.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

去观看单口喜剧表演。

Go and see stand up comic.

或者去看总理。

Or the prime minister.

或者去见总理。

Or go to the prime minister.

是的。

Yeah.

或者去剧院，或者去电影院。

Or go to the theater or go to the cinema.

所有这些，电影院不是现场的。

All these well, the cinema is not live.

不。

No.

所以你知道我的意思。

So you know what I mean.

是的。

Yeah.

同样地，去观看现场音乐表演，从中获得灵感。

And in the same way, go and see live music to be inspired by it.

把它放到你的iPhone或iPod上。

Put it on your iPhone or your iPod.

显然，你可以把音乐放到iPod上，但你也可以把英语放到iPod上，比如你已经思考了很久的内容。

So obviously, you put music on your iPod, but you can put English on your iPod too in the form of You've been thinking about it for a lot.

是的

Yeah.

有

Have.

是的

Yeah.

播客，你知道的，你可以用iPhone听新闻之类的内容。

Podcast, you know, you listen to the news and stuff on your iPhone.

用你的身体去做。

Do it with your body.

但现在我说的是，当你听音乐时，这是一种身体上的体验。

Now, but but I mean, when you play music, it's a physical thing.

是的

Yeah.

当你讲英语时，这也是一种身体上的体验，因为你用到了嘴巴、舌头、肌肉、呼吸等等。

And it's also a physical thing when you speak English because you're using your mouth and your tongue and the muscles and stuff and your breathing and everything.

是的。

Yes.

它是什么？它是什么？

What's it what's it?

嗓音训练。

Voice training.

嗓音训练。

Voice training.

因为如果你喉咙有问题，或者说话太多、方式不对，就会出问题。

Because because you can like have problems with your throat or something, you talk too much in the wrong way.

对。

Right.

为了交流。

It to communicate.

显然，你通过英语传达信息，同时也通过音乐传达。

Obviously, you communicate a message through English but also through music.

被它打动情感。

Be emotionally touched by it.

所以当你听音乐时，不仅要触动你，还应该对语言或语言内容产生某种情感联系。

So when you listen to music, should touch you but also you should be sort of having some emotional contact or connection with the language or the content of the language.

所以你应该读一本英文书，并被它打动，或对所使用的语言产生情感联系。

So what should read a book in English and be touched by it or have some emotional connection to language you're using.

了解你的乐器。

Understand your instrument.

了解你是如何发出你所发出的声音的。

Understand how you make the sounds that you make.

作为一名吉他手，你需要知道拾音器是如何工作的，以及如何从你的乐器中获得最佳音色。

So as a guitarist, you need to know how the pickups work, how to get the best sounds out of your instrument.

作为一名英语使用者，你需要了解你的嘴巴是如何产生这些声音的。

And as a English speaker, you need to know how your mouth is producing the noises

你这么做其实挺不寻常的，因为大多数人不会这样。

that It's you're quite unusual that people do that.

我的意思是，这个比喻不错，但可能不太常见。

Well, I mean, it's a nice analogy, but but possibly less common.

你是说了解你的嘴巴是如何工作的吗？

You mean understanding how your mouth works?

是的。

Yeah.

但英语学习者 hopefully 会学会，例如通过了解舌头的位置等方式来发出正确的音。

But learners of English hopefully will under will learn, for example, how to make sounds or sounds by knowing the position of the tongue and all

这些事情。

those things.

但我觉得，如果你对这些东西感兴趣，那真的会很有趣。

But that kind of thing I think is is like if if you're fascinated by it, then it's really interesting.

对。

Yeah.

但如果别人强迫你做，或者你明白我的意思吗？

But if somebody makes you do it or or you know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

这很重要。

It's important.

它可能成为一个问题或者

It can be like a problem or

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

True.

它可能会非常无聊。

It can be extremely boring.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

即使很痛苦也要每天坚持。

Do it every day even if it hurts.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，那是真的。

Well, that's true.

就像我之前说的，当我学吉他时。

Like I was saying before when I was learning the guitar.

是的。

Yeah.

学吉他时手指会疼。

You it hurts your fingers to learn the guitar.

是的。

Yeah.

同样地，学习

And in a similar way, learning

英语也会让人受苦。

English can hurt you.

我记得在日本的时候，你说过，我在委内瑞拉的时候，每天晚上都坐在电视前，试图看懂内容，因为我根本听不懂任何东西。

I I remember that when I was like, you're saying in Japan, I used to when I was in Venezuela, I used to, every night, sit down in front of the TV to try sit down in front of the TV to try to just because I couldn't understand anything.

是的。

Yeah.

我渐渐听懂了一点，但后来就累了，开始沮丧，但我只是

And I understand a bit and then I start getting tired and I get frustrated, but I just

坚持下去。每一次的痛苦都源于挫败感，你知道，也许还有点尴尬，但你必须继续做下去，即使它让你难受。

kept on doing The every pain is in the sense that you're frustrated, you know, and maybe embarrassed, you know, but you have to just keep doing it even if it hurts.

还有呢？

What else?

学习理论。

Learn the theory.

学习理论。

Learn the theory.

所以要学习语法，学习音乐理论，但要知道什么时候该抛开它们。

So learn the grammar, learn the musical theory, but know when to throw it out the window.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你得学习语法规则，但也要知道什么时候可以打破这些规则。

So you gotta learn the rules of grammar, but you also need to know when you can break the rules of grammar.

你得学习音乐理论的规则，也要知道什么时候该彻底抛开理论。

And you need to learn the rules of musical theory, and you need to know when to just throw the theory out the window.

是的。

Yeah.

我明白了。

I see.

我一开始听到你这么说的时候，还以为你指的是我们之前讨论过的那种有意识和无意识的部分。

I thought when I when you said that first, you meant about kind of like we were talking about before, like the conscious and unconscious part.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这和那个有关。

It relates to that.

就像掌握语法规则一样。

Like knowing the grammar.

真的太恶心了，但我能借个骰子吗？

Really so disgusting, but can I borrow a dice

如果你有的话？

if you've got one?

你想要吗？不。

Do you want any No.

我没有骰子。

Don't have any dice.

不。

No.

但我有个办法让你能做到。

But I've got an idea to how you can do it.

是的。

Yeah.

没关系。

It's alright.

你知道你可以怎么做吗？

You know what you can do?

抱歉。

Sorry.

如果你拿到一块，你就这样做。

If you get a piece of it, you do this.

我就是这么做的，但这取决于你是否这样操作。

That's what I do, but it depends how if you do it like that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

慢跑。

The jogging.

你不用。

And you no.

你就这样操作，把那个东西填满，你知道的，直到它满了，然后你就这样。

You just go like that and just fill the thing with that, you know, until it's And then you just go like that.

然后你就只是

Then you just just

你刚才说什么？

what were you saying?

比如用心去学，以及按规则去学。

Like learning it from the heart and learning it the rules.

是的，因为当我接触到这些理论时，确实被其中一些内容吸引住了，但对我来说，关于显性语言学习和隐性学习的那部分一直很有趣，因为那段时间它特别流行。

Yes, because I was really a bit in as much as you do get fascinated by any of the theory of it, but it always seemed interesting to me that that thing about because it was really trendy at one point, you know, explicit language learning versus implicit learning.

当交际法教学兴起时，最初以极端形式出现，理念就是你直接去做。

And when communicative language teaching came in, at first, in the extreme form, the idea was you just did it.

就像学习你的第一语言一样。

So was just like learning your first language.

所以你从不直接教学生任何东西。

So the only you never taught people anything.

你只是安排无尽的交际活动。

You just had endless communicative activities.

所以交际法教学就是让学生置身于交际情境中，通过完成任务，比如使用语言，他们就能不知不觉地学会，但随后人们会

So communicative language learning is about putting students in communicative situations and just by doing tasks, for example, using language, they somehow just learn, they But then acquire people

意识到你知道，那确实是这样。

realize that you know, that was Yeah.

你知道，所以这可能是一种非常缓慢的方法。

You know, and so it could be a very slow method.

是的。

Yeah.

另一种方法是机械地学习语法规则，但事实上我们

And the other method is just to study the rules in a very mechanical But in fact, what we

我们现在尝试将两者结合起来。

do nowadays is try to combine the two.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这就像是学习语言，然后在真实情境中使用它。

It's like studying the language and then using it in genuine situations.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，但我还挺喜欢

So But I quite like

那个东西。

the thing.

我跟你说过，你知道的，就是那个可能有点过时的九十年代的东西，但关于意识这一点。

I've told you, you know, that thing which is probably a bit old now from the nineties, but the thing about awareness.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，关于对语言的觉察。

So the thing about being aware of language.

所以你不管是否在练习、重复，或者其他方式，都要始终保持觉察。

So you don't whether you're not, you drill it or you repeat it or whatever, just always being aware.

所以学习一门语言时，你必须付出努力。

So it's like you've got to make an effort when you're learning a language.

你不能只是坐在那里。

You can't just sit there.

你必须付出努力。

You've got to make an effort.

所以，无论是在课堂上，你始终高度关注每个人在说什么，还是在酒吧里，你也会特别留意、倾听，而不仅仅是使用语言，还要去思考它。

And so whether it's because you're in a classroom and you're really kind of constantly really aware of what everybody's saying, but also when you're in the pub again, you've been you're just kind of really aware and listening and not just using it, but kind of thinking about it.

留意。

Noticing.

留意。

Noticing.

没错。

Exactly.

这个词就是。

That's the word.

留意。

Noticing.

是的。

Yeah.

留意语言中的某些细节，比如，哦，这很有趣。

Noticing bits of language like, oh, that's interesting.

他刚才用了一个被动语态。

He just used a kind of passive form there.

如果你这么做，你会是个什么样的极客？

What kind of geek would you be if you're doing that?

但你确实得这么做。

That's what you have to do though.

是的。

Yeah.

但不一定非得那样，只是说，哦，这个短语真不错，或者

But but not necessarily that, but just say, oh, that's a nice phrase or

是的。

Yeah.

或者，就是我昨天听到的那个表达。

Or or, that was the thing I heard yesterday.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我这里写着：早点开始。

I've got here start early.

所以我的意思是，从你年轻时就开始。

So I mean, start early in your life.

所以很明显，理想情况是从孩子时期就开始，并且不要放弃。

So obviously, ideally when you're a child and don't give up.

所以，我的意思是，鼓励孩子，鼓励你的孩子去这么做。

So I mean, encourage children, encourage your children to do it.

当然。

For sure.

对于孩子来说，尽早开始是非常重要的。

Like, it's very important for kids to start early.

越早越好。

The earlier, the better.

是的，尤其是对于发音之类的。

Yes, especially for pronunciation and stuff.

是的。

Yes.

用它来娱乐他人。

Use it to entertain other people.

所以，我的意思是，如果你是那种喜欢娱乐他人的人，你可以用音乐来娱乐别人。

So, I mean, if you're the sort of person who likes to entertain other people, you can use music to entertain people.

你也可以用英语来讲笑话之类的。

You can also use your English to make jokes and stuff.

享受它听起来的感觉。

Enjoy the way it sounds.

这很明显。

That's obvious.

享受音乐的声音，也要享受英语在不同口音下听起来的感觉。

Just enjoy the way music sounds, but enjoy the way English can sound in different accents and things.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的吧？

You know?

比如克里斯托弗·沃肯。

Like like Christopher Walken.

比如著名演员克里斯托弗·沃肯，如果你喜欢他那种

Like like a famous actor, like Christopher Walken, if you love the way How would

他听起来怎么样？

he sound?

嗯，我会模仿一下，但我的听众可能既不知道克里斯托弗·沃肯是谁，也不知道他声音是什么样的。

Well, I would do the impression, but none of my listeners are going to know, a, either a, who Christopher Walken is or b, what he sounds like.

所以这其实行不通。

So, it's not really going to work.

罗伯特·德尼罗呢？

Robert De Niro?

罗伯特·德尼罗，他更出名的是脸，而不是声音。

Robert De Niro, again, is more of a face than a sound.

好吧。

Alright.

还有那些我喜欢模仿的著名演员，但我发现学生并不了解罗伯特·德尼罗的声音是什么样的。

Again, are famous actors who I like to do impressions of, but I find students don't know what Robert De Niro's voice is like.

没有。

No.

总之，总之，录下你自己然后听一听。

Anyway, anyway, so record yourself and listen to it.

所以当你弹吉他时，录下自己然后回放听听。

So when you're playing a song on the guitar, record yourself and listen back to it.

对吧？

Right?

同样地，你也可以用英语这么做。

And similarly, can do that with English.

你录下自己的声音，然后回放，也许可以录下自己念一段新闻稿之类的内容，再录下新闻主播的版本，对比一下你和他们的差异。

You record your own voice, listen back to it, maybe record yourself saying something like a tape script from the news or something, and then record yourself doing it, then listen to the newsreader doing it, listen to yourself doing it, compare the differences.

弹吉他也是同样的道理，你弹一首歌，录下来，然后回放，想想听起来怎么样，你知道的。

And similarly with guitar, you play a song, record it and then listen back to it and think how does that sound, you know.

还有别的吗？

What else?

在YouTube上观看别人是怎么做的。

Watch other people doing it on YouTube.

YouTube 上有很多吉他手教你如何演奏特定的歌曲。

So there's lots and lots of guitarists on YouTube showing you how to play particular songs.

你有没有用 YouTube 来学习

Do you ever use YouTube to learn

它关了。

It's off.

好吧。

Alright.

嗯，确实如此。

Well, yeah.

嗯，它是

Well, it's

现在确实不太用了，因为我练得不多，但确实是。

it's just not very much now because I don't practice very much, but Yeah.

这很棒。

It is great.

那首歌是我们最近才推出的，你知道的？

And that was a new song recently that that we you know?

我是在朱尔斯·霍兰德的节目上看到的。

And I and I just I saw on Jules Holland as it was.

当时镜头全程都聚焦在吉他和手指上，所以……

And it happened, the camera was completely focused the whole time on the guitar and fingers, and so

这使得学习容易多了。

it made it much easier.

在YouTube上，你确实能找到一些人教你如何学会一首歌。

You actually get on YouTube these guys who will teach you how to learn a song.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

同样地，你也可以用YouTube来学英语，网上有很多人教英语。

And in the same way, you can use YouTube to pick up English, and there's people teaching English on YouTube.

我只是想

Just But thought

另一件事，我不记得是不是杰克·福赛思做的，你知道的？

of one another thing, which is I can't remember if was Jack Forsyth who did you know it?

是的，杰克。

Yes, Jack.

我不确定是不是他的一个方法，有人告诉过我们。

I don't know if it was one of his things, somebody told it to us.

关于改善发音，你可以找一部你喜欢的演员主演的电影，性别和你一样，而且你也不介意听起来有点像他，然后挑一段电影，每次他说话时就暂停，跟着重复他说的话。

And the thing about that improve your pronunciation is like get a film with an actor that you quite like, same sex as you, and that you wouldn't mind sounding a bit like, and then you just take a bit of the film and you you just keep pausing every time he says something, just repeat what he says.

是的。

Yeah.

音乐也是同样的道理。

So it's the same with music.

你可以这么做。

You could do that.

当然，这就是你学习歌曲的方式。

Certainly, that's how that's how you learn songs.

多加练习。

Play a lot.

你要多练习。

You play a lot.

播放歌曲并不断暂停。

The song and keep pausing it

直到你把最后一部分练对为止。

until you've got the last bit right.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我通过坐在房间里，放着音乐，跟着音乐弹奏贝斯，大大提高了我的贝斯演奏水平。

I listened to I really improved my bass guitar playing by sitting in my room with a with some music on and playing the bass along to the music.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

但那是另一首。

But that's that's another one.

但我的意思是，有点不同，因为另一首是

But it's I mean, slightly different because the other one

在两种情况下，你都是听一句，然后暂停，再重复这句话。

is you you in both cases, you you listen to a phrase and pause and then you repeat the phrase.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

而你的方法更像

Whereas yours is more kind

关于流利度的问题。

of the fluency thing.

同时跟着一起互动。

Playing along with it at the same time.

是的。

Yes.

想想看，音乐或语言如何根据情境变化。

Think about how either music or language changes depending on the situation.

例如，播放的音乐会因演奏者、观众、场合、地理位置而不同，也就是你身处世界上的哪个地方。

So, for example, the music that is played will be different depending on who's playing it, the audience, the occasion, the geography, so depending on where you are in the world.

英语也会根据语境而变化。

English will change depending on the context.

所以，无论你是社交闲聊还是面对观众讲话，观众人数多少，以及你身处世界上的哪个地方，都会影响表达方式。

So if you're speaking socially or if you're speaking to an audience, how big the audience is, and again, where you are in the world.

所以，你知道，你得考虑不同类型的英语。

So, you know, like, you got to think about different types of English.

所以你是想说，比如萨尔萨音乐和摇滚乐的区别，以及印度式英语和澳大利亚式英语的区别吗？

So are you talking to say like, you're talking about like salsa as opposed to rock and like Indian English as opposed to Australian English?

是的。

Yeah.

所有这些方面，还是

All of those things or

举个英语的例子，如果你在做演讲，你使用的语言会根据听众人数的不同而变化。

even like, let's say, in terms of English, if you are doing a presentation, the language that you use in your presentation will change depending on the size of the audience.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果你面对的是大规模听众，就会使用某些特定的表达方式，是的。

So if you're speaking to a big audience, then you're gonna use certain phrases Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

去应对这种庞大的不同受众。

To talk to this massive Different technique.

完全是不同的方式。

Different technique completely.

如果你面对的是五个人的房间，那就更个人化、更随意了。

If you're speaking to a room of five people, then it's a lot more personal, you know, and a lot more informal really.

同样，在音乐中，如果你在小场地为少量观众演出，你会以某种方式演奏。

Similarly, in music, if you're playing a little gig to a little room of people, you play in a certain way.

但如果你要为体育场的观众表演，就必须呈现完全不同的演出。

But if you've got a stadium to entertain, you've got to put on a completely different show.

你得让场面更大，像一场盛大的表演，充满娱乐性。

You've got to make it big and it's like a big show and lots of entertainment.

而如果观众人数很少，你甚至可能在歌曲之间和他们聊几句。

Whereas if there's a little group of people, you might even chat with them a little bit between the songs.

我刚刚在想物理方面的事情。

I was just thinking of physical thing.

完全忘了那些物理层面的东西。

Completely forgotten that that Physical stuff.