英语俳句大师约翰·史蒂文森 ✍️（访谈）[983]

所以俳句的语气就是‘饶’的语气。

So the tone of haiku is the tone of the jo.

所以它稍微正式一点。

So it's a little bit formal.

它更安静。

It's quieter.

它很含蓄。

It's subtle.

它不涉及强烈的情感。

It doesn't involve strong emotion.

我的意思是，可能会包含非常深层的情感，但不是明显强烈的情感。

I mean, may involve very deep emotion, but not overtly strong emotion.

明白吗？

Okay?

对。

Yeah.

通常有一些话题是你可能会避免的。

There are there are topics that you generally will you're likely to avoid.

这并不是绝对的规则，但你通常不会从政治开始谈起。

It's not an absolute rule, but you're often you're not going to start with politics usually.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你也不会从宗教开始谈起。

You're not going to start with religion.

你也不会从疾病开始谈起。

You're not going to start with illness.

你也不会从战争开始谈起。

You're not going to start with war.

一旦进入之后，就什么都行了。

Once you get into the the anything goes.

对我来说，这就是川柳的基础。

And to me, that's the basis of senryu.

现在，我不是说这真的是因为它们有独立的发展之类的。

Now, don't mean it's literally because it has a separate development and all that.

但从语气上来说，这就是俳谐诗的精髓。

But in terms of tone, that's what senryu is about.

如果你想写一首诗，我的意思是，有爱情诗。

If you want to write about a verse, I mean, there are love verses.

我说的爱情诗，实际上指的是情欲诗。

By love verses, I essentially mean sex verses.

如果你想写一些有争议的、挑衅性的内容，或者想表达某种观点，你就应该在连歌的中间部分写。

If you want to do something that's controversial, if you want to do something that's provocative, if you want to really make a statement of some kind, you do that in the middle section of the renku.

我在《千句》里就是这样做的。

And I do that in Senju.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣，因为确实，这是一种语气上的差异。

That's interesting because so, yeah, it's a tonal difference.

在节目期间，我读了你的一些作品，我注意到它们非常具有观察性。

And during the episode, I was reading out some of your things, and I I was struck by the fact that they are quite observational.

很多作品都在评论人们的行为，或者你所看到的事情。

There's a lot of them are commenting on people's behavior or things that you've seen.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得这有点像观察式喜剧。

And I thought it feels a bit like observational comedy.

它几乎像单口喜剧，采用的是类似的方式：你看到某件事，观察到我们所有人都经历过、生活中某种有趣的现象，然后用语言表达出来。

It's almost like stand up comedy, which is a similar sort of approach where you see something and you you kind of observe something that we all experience, something funny in the world that we all experience, and you put it into words.

以前可能没人明确说过这些，但当这些被揭示出来时，会有一种幽默的瞬间。

People haven't necessarily verbalized it before, and there's a sort of funny moment in seeing something revealed like that.

这似乎也是连歌精神的一部分。

And that seems to be, again, part of the spirit of the renga.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

不。

No.

不。

No.

川柳。

Senryu.

川柳。

Senryu.

川柳。

Senryu.

川柳。

Senryu.

我

I

你想怎么说都行，但很多英语世界的俳句爱好者都会说川柳。

think say it the way you want to, but, you know, A lot of people in English in the haiku community say senryu.

Senju是日语发音的英语式发音方式。

Senju is the sort of Japanese pronunciation as the English version of the Japanese pronunciation.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以你做的很多东西严格来说并不是俳句，但你已经进入了短歌的精神范畴。

So a lot of the things that you're doing are not strictly speaking haiku, but you kind of moved into the senryu kind of spirit.

问题是这样的。

Well, here's the thing.

目前，英语诗歌传统中有很多诗歌都被视为处于边缘地带。

There are quite a lot of poems in the English language canon at this point, which are looked upon as sort of borderline.

它们具有俳句和川柳的元素。

That is they have elements of haiku and they have elements of senryu.

事实上，我认为我的很多作品都属于这种边缘类别。

And I actually, I think a lot of my work really falls into the kind of borderline category.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

这很有趣，因为人们一直把你视为俳句作家，但实际上，也许在人们没有意识到的情况下，你写的是另一种形式。

It's interesting because you're known as a haiku writer, but in fact, maybe sort of, without people realizing, you're you're writing in a different form.

但世界正在跟上。

But the the world is catching up.

每个人都在逐渐了解各种诗歌形式的不同。

Every everyone's still catching up on, you know, the different, types of poetry.

是的。

Yeah.

这里还有另一个两者之间的区别。

Here's here's here's another here's another distinction between the two.

明白吗？

Okay?

嗯。

Mhmm.

这一点我之前在上线前就提到过。

And this I touched on before we came on here.

俳句往往非常简单、含蓄，第一次阅读时，你可能会觉得它们几乎什么都没表达。

Haiku often are are are so simple and so subtle that on your first reading, they seem like almost nothing to know.

但如果你再读一遍，给它们一些时间，它们就会慢慢展现出深层含义。

But if you give them another reading and you give them a little time, they begin to sort of open.

它们具有反复展开、不断深化的特质。

And they have this quality of doing that over and over again of opening and opening and opening.

川柳其实就像一个笑话。

Senryu is really like a joke.

顺便说一下，它不一定要幽默。

It doesn't have to be humorous, by the way.

但它像笑话一样，因为它的最大效果体现在你第一次听到的时候。

But it works like a joke in the sense that it does its it has its maximum impact the first time you hear it.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，其中一个例子就是你的那首，我想想，如果我能凭记忆说出来的话，是《裸滩》。

I mean, an example of one of those would be the one of yours, which I think, if I can do it from memory, is Nude Beach.

哦，对。

Oh, yes.

《裸滩》，他那座巨大的沙堡。

Nude Beach, his enormous sand castle.

对。

Yes.

我今天早上读了这首，我觉得非常有趣，因为它能在三个层面上产生效果。

I read that this morning, and and I thought that's very funny because it sort of works on three levels.

我不确定是否应该

I don't know if I don't know if it's okay to to

它们全部都是沙子。

All of them's all of them sand.

它们都是不同层次的沙子。

All of them different levels of sand.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

也许我们可以回头再谈这个，因为我确实有几篇你的文字，想和你聊聊。

Maybe we can come back to that one because I do actually have a few of your bits of writing that I'd like to talk to you about.

所以幽默并不是决定性特质。

So humor not the defining quality.

《现代俳句》杂志的长期编辑鲍勃·斯皮斯说，俳句可能会让你微笑。

The longtime editor of Modern Haiku Journal, Bob Spies said, haiku might make you smile.

川柳则可能会让你开怀大笑。

A senryu might make you laugh out loud.

好的。

Okay.

这非常有趣。

Very that's very interesting.

好的。

Okay.

所以我喜欢川柳。

So I like the senryu then.

我觉得这绝对是我的菜。

I think that's definitely my kind of cup of tea.

是的。

Yeah.

你究竟是怎么开始写这些日本诗歌形式的呢？

How did you end up getting into writing these forms of Japanese poetry exactly?

嗯，说来奇怪，我是通过戏剧工作接触到的。

Well, I got into it through my theater work, strangely.

我这辈子大部分时间都是一名诗人。

I I've been a poet most of my life.

我八岁时就第一次发表作品，十几岁初期就开始每天写作。

My first publication was when I was eight years old, and I was writing daily in my early teens.

但我直到后来才接触到俳句，我很庆幸在学校里没早早就遇到它。

But I didn't encounter haiku, and I'm glad I didn't in school or anything like that.

我在一个戏剧会议上，被安排和一位日本女演员搭档。

I was at a theater conference, and I was teamed with a Japanese actress.

休息时我们聊天，发现我们都热爱诗歌。

And on a break, we were talking, we realized we both, loved poetry.

她跟我分享了她世界上最喜欢的一首诗，那是松尾芭蕉的一首俳句。

And she shared with me her favorite poem in the world, which was a Basho haiku.

这才是认识俳句的正确方式。

Now that's the way to be introduced to haiku.

根本不是关于音节，也不是说‘这是我最爱的诗’。

Nothing about syllables, nothing about know, that this is my favorite poem in the world.

她所做的，正是令人印象深刻的地方。

And what she did, here's why it was impressive.

她说她用日语为我朗诵了这首诗，让我听到其中的韵律，因为所有的诗歌本质上都是某种形式的音乐。

She said she she recited the poems for me in Japanese so I could hear the the music because poetry everywhere is some version of music.

然后她给了我诗句的翻译，让我了解诗中的意象。

Then she gave me the translation of the terms so I'd know what the images were in the poem.

但最精彩的是，她说：‘对日本人来说，提到这个季节，就会联想到这些、这些和这些。’

But the killer was she said, now for a Japanese person, the, the mention of this season will have this, this, and this association.

对日本人来说，读这首诗时，很可能会想到这个历史时期。

For a Japanese person reading this poem, they are likely to think of this historical era.

对日本人来说，读这首诗时，很可能会想到日本的这个地区。

For a Japanese person reading this poem, they are likely to think of this region in Japan.

对于一个有文化的日本人来说，读这首诗时会想到这首中国诗。

For a cultured Japanese person reading this poem, they are going to think of this Chinese poem.

而在这里，你知道，就四五个词，却成了所有这些文化脉络的交汇点。

And here I you know, like, four or five words, you know, and it's and it's a crossroads for all these cultural vectors.

是的。

Yes.

我明白了。

I see.

我

I

我印象深刻。

I was impressed.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我能理解。

I can see that.

好的。

Okay.

所以那是你初次接触它的方式。

So that was your introduction to it.

后来，虽然你本来就在写诗，但你开始尝试这种形式。

Then eventually, as you you were already writing poetry, but you just started experimenting with this form.

那是什么吸引了你呢？

And and what was it about it that sort of grabbed you?

我觉得，最初最明显的特点是它很简短。

Well, I think initially the obvious quality of it is it's brief.

它要求你真正专注于表达。

It requires you to really work on your focus.

在我看来，首先在戏剧方面，我一直对塞缪尔·贝克特印象深刻，也一直欣赏他越来越简洁的戏剧风格。

In my mind, well, first of all, in theater, I've always been impressed with Samuel Beckett and I've always been impressed with his progressively more terse drama.

所以这也是其中的一个方面。

So there's that aspect of it.

但另一方面，作为诗人，我一生都意识到，大多数人如果懂一点诗歌的话，也只记得一两行。

But there's also the fact that I was aware as a poet all my life that most people, if they know any poetry at all, they they just know a couple of a line or two.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的吧？

You know?

因此，作为一名演员，我有出演莎士比亚作品的经验。

And so I have as an actor, I have background playing in Shakespeare.

我能背诵大段的莎士比亚作品。

I can I can spout whole sections of Shakespeare?

嗯。

Mhmm.

但大多数人虽然做不到这一点，却每天都在引用莎士比亚，自己却浑然不觉。

But most people, while they can't do that, are quoting Shakespeare every day without knowing it.

对。

Right.

但他们引用的莎士比亚都是这样的片段。

But they're quoting Shakespeare in pieces like this.

是的。

Yeah.

这并不是所谓的终极目标，也不是不言而喻的结论，或者像这些源自莎士比亚的短语。

It's not the be all or end all or it's a foregone conclusion or, you know, all these phrases that come from Shakespeare.

对。

Right.

即使是对诗歌毫无兴趣的人，这些内容也依然是他们生活的一部分。

And people who have no interest in poetry whatsoever, this is still part of their life.

我想直接去写那些诗句，而不是去处理围绕它们的那些繁杂内容。

Well, I wanted to go directly to writing those rather than the whole mess of whatever would surround those.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我明白了。

I see.

所以你是说。

So you yeah.

你选择了极简风格，而不是像垮掉派诗人那样 expansive。

You went minimal rather than expansive in this like the sort of the beat poets or anything.

就像艾伦·金斯堡，完全相反于艾伦·金斯堡。

Like Allen Ginsberg, the opposite of Allen Ginsberg.

你知道艾伦·金斯堡出过一本俳句集吗？

Do you know that Allen Ginsberg put out a a collection of haiku?

哦，是吗？

Oh, did he?

好的。

Okay.

所以这立刻证明我错了。

So that proves me wrong instantly.

嗯，没有。

Well, no.

这根本不能证明你错了，因为他的俳句对于

It doesn't prove you wrong at all because his haiku very long for

俳句来说太长了。

a haiku.

它们确实是。

They are.

好的。

Okay.

行吧。

Alright.

因为我以为，你知道，他最著名的作品叫《豪厄尔》，我觉得，而且非常长。

Because I thought, you know, his his famous work is what Howell, I think it's called, and it's extremely long.

它会持续很久很久。

It goes on for ages and ages.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我只是把这当作一种对比。

So I just thought of that as a contrast.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

那么，它如此简短这一事实是否具有启发性呢？

So is that inspiring then, the fact that it's so brief?

这有帮助吗？

Is that does that help?

嗯，它对我有帮助。

Well, it helps me.

我的意思是，这种东西正是我最喜欢读的类型。

Mean, it's the kind of thing that I like to best myself to read.

所以自从我开始写诗以来，我一直努力写一些我自己愿意读的东西。

So always while I've been writing poetry for as long as I've been doing that, I've tried to write something that I would like to read.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

如果你写几行诗，你想要达到什么目标呢？

And what are you trying to achieve if you write a few lines?

你的目的是什么？

What is your objective?

你是问我在俳句这个层面上的意思，还是泛指呢？

Well, you're saying you're asking me that in terms of haiku, or you're asking me that in general?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得我们已经模糊了俳句和其他形式之间的区别。

I feel like we've blurred the distinction between haiku and other forms.

让我们说吧，我的意思是，我愿意说，任何一首诗，任何短诗。

Let's let's I mean, I'm prepared to say that just any poem, any short poem.

是的。

Yeah.

让我谈谈我长期以来对这个问题的看法，看看这是否能回答你的问题。

Let me let me just say what I've said about this for a long time and and see if this answers your question.

我不确定。

I'm not sure.

如果这没有回答你的问题，我们可以删掉。

We can cut it out if it doesn't answer your question.

所以我只是像往常一样过日子，你知道的，我不会坐下来对自己说：现在我要写什么什么。

So what I do is I just go through my life like, you know, I don't sit down and say, now I will write blah, blah, blah.

但偶尔我会有一点灵感，你可以这么叫它。

But every once in a while, I have this little spark of you can call it inspiration, I guess.

在我的想法里，就是突然冒出一个念头：哦，这挺有意思。

You know, in my mind, it's just like the thought of, oh, that's something.

如果这个想法发展成一个完整的构思，我就会写一首长诗。

Now, if that something resolves itself into an idea, then I'm going to write a longer poem.

我会抓住这个想法，然后围绕它展开发挥。

I'm just going to take that idea, and I'm going to riff on it.

但如果这个感觉一直保持模糊，没有具体化，那在我眼里，这就是写俳句的素材。

But if that something holds on to that sense of something more without resolving into something specific, That's the material for a haiku in my mind.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你看，西方人所进行的创作行为，往往通过艺术家的艺术作品来完成。

See, the creative act as we perform it in the West is often it's completed in a sense by the art of the artist.

我们的艺术方式，不管是什么艺术，都像是‘有本事就亮出来’。

You know, our way of doing art, whatever the art is, it's kind of if you've got it, flaunt it.

你知道吧？

You know?

让我展示一下我在这方面有多出色。

Let me show you how brilliant I can be at this.

你知道吧？

You know?

比如，让我展示一下我丰富的词汇、华丽的语言和对句式的掌控。

Like like, let me show off the colorful language, the the rich vocabulary, the control of sentence structure.

让我用我精湛的语言技巧惊艳你。

Let me wow you with my beautiful control of language.

是的。

Yep.

或者，比如我在唱歌时，展示我的音域，或者弹奏乐器时，展示那些别人做不到的指法等等。

Or if it's, you know, if I'm singing, like, you know, my range or, you know, if it's I've been playing an instrument, the, you know, the fingering that I can do that nobody else can do, etc.

我们常常期待的反应是惊叹。

Know, the reaction we're looking for frequently is awe.

就是让我们的观众看到我们的所作所为，然后忍不住惊叹：我的天，他们是怎么做到的？

Are asking our audience to see what we're doing and to go, My God, how did they do that?

我肯定永远都做不到。

I could never do that.

不过俳句就不一样了，你懂的。

Haiku though are different, know.

人们第一次接触俳句的时候，通常的反应都是：这还挺酷的。

Haiku the reaction of people who first encounter haiku often is, that's kind of cool.

你懂的，我打赌我肯定能做到。

You know, bet I could do that.

而事实上他们确实有这个能力，你懂的吧。

And the fact is they can do that, you know.

俳句能适配你所能展现的任何水平的技巧。

Haiku will accommodate any degree of skill that you're able to bring to it.

但它并不要求你必须身怀绝技，因为俳句的核心从来不是炫耀你的能力。

But it doesn't require that because it's not about the showing off of your skill.

这关乎一种共同的经历，一种与社区——在我们的情况下是想象中的社区——中人们共享的经历，你知道的。

It's about a sense of common experience, of shared experience with your with a community, imagined community in our case, you know, of people.

所以，如果我有一种感觉，觉得那是我见过的，或者是一种我见过、听过、闻过或类似的东西，它带有一种额外的意义感，但又不是我能明确说出的具体含义。

So if I have this sense that that is something I've seen or it's a sense thing, know, something I've seen or heard or smelled or whatever to know, that that has this feeling of some some additional meaning, but not something that I can like say this particular meaning.

这很好，因为俳句的创作行为并不由俳句诗人完成。

That's a good because the creative act for haiku is not doesn't get finished by the haiku poet.

如果俳句诗人创作得当，他们会把读者带到那个瞬间。

The haiku poet, if they're working well, brings the reader to that moment.

然后，读者才会完成这个创作行为。

And then the reader does finishes the creative act.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，我发现了它与单口喜剧的相似之处。

Again, funnily enough, I'm finding parallels with stand up.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

因为当你写单口喜剧时，你只有一个想法。

Because in in when when you're writing some stand up where you have an idea, you just get one idea.

有时候，即使是你自己，也不太清楚这个搞笑点的核心到底是什么。

Sometimes it's not entirely clear even to you what the actual crux of the funny idea is.

所以我给你举个例子。

So I'll give you an example.

我一直在想，我去钓鱼了，好吧，但我一条鱼也没钓到。

I was trying to think of so I I I went fishing, okay, and I didn't catch any fish.

所以我本质上是站在那里，或者更准确地说，我是在一艘船上。

So I essentially stood there, or in fact, I was in a boat.

所以我坐在船上，盯着水面看了大约两个小时，感觉真的很舒服。

So I sat in the boat looking at the water for about two hours, and it was really nice.

但你不能只是去盯着水看两个小时，因为别人会觉得这很奇怪。

But you can't so the the the point that I was trying to the funny point is there in there is that you can't just go and stare at water for two hours because people would think it's strange.

所以你得带一些钓鱼装备。

So you have to bring some fishing equipment with you.

如果你有根钓鱼竿，那就没问题了。

And then if you if you got a fishing rod, you you're okay.

你真的可以站在河里盯着水面看两三个小时，没人会觉得奇怪。

You can you can actually stand in a river and stare at the water for two to three hours, and no one thinks it's strange.

但如果你不带钓鱼装备就这么做，每个人都会看着你，心想：哦，又是那个站在河里的怪人。

But if you do if you do it without the fishing equipment, everyone will just look at you and think, well, oh, he's in the there's that strange man standing in the river again.

所以，你知道，这个想法的核心在于，去钓鱼这个行为其实是一种借口，用来做其他本来会被人认为不合社会规范的事情。

So, you know, like, the the idea is something about the fact that that the act of going fishing is sort of an excuse for doing something else, which is other would otherwise be socially unacceptable.

我不确定。

And I don't know.

我还在努力琢磨这里面真正的笑点在哪里。

I'm still trying to work out where the actual funny point is in it.

但为了找到它，你必须说得简洁一些。

But by searching for that, you you have to be quite brief.

你必须尝试解释这个情境，而观众也有责任，因为他们需要填补空白，最终得出和你一样的结论——那是一种显而易见却从未被人真正想过的事情。

You have to try to explain the situation, and it is up to the audience as well because they've got to fill in the gaps and arrive at the same kind of conclusion that they've kind of that something that's obvious, but they haven't really ever thought of it thought of it before.

而你写这类段子的方式，就是众所周知的铺垫和笑点。

And you the way you have to write that piece is that you you know, there's the setup and the punchline as we know.

但关键在于你如何构建这个想法，如何展现思维过程，这样才能让观众跟上你的思路，最终抵达那个幽默的结论。

But just, you know, the way you set up the idea, the way you demonstrate the thought process is what allows the other the audience to kind of follow your train of thought and then arrive at the funny conclusion.

这在某种程度上是件很相似的事情。

This is sort of strangely similar thing.

我觉得我能理解为什么它们相似。

That's how I can understand it is similar, I feel.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，俳句确实有点像坐在船上凝视水面。

Well, yeah, haiku is a little is a little like sitting in a boat looking at the water.

懂吗？

Know?

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是当一只青蛙跳进水里时。

Especially when a frog jumps into that water.

看到了吗？

See that?

是的。

Yeah.

在俳句的语境中，面对你的观众，你就是得笑出来。

In a haiku context with your audience here, you just got to laugh.

你知道的。

You know?

实际上，

Actually,

你提到写作方式这一点很有趣，这正是我想问的一个问题：你是怎么写的？

it's interesting that you mentioned the way that you write because that's one of my questions, which is that how do you write?

你总是随身带着笔和纸吗，还是会专门坐下来进行写作？

Are you always ready with a pen and paper, or do you actually sit down for specific writing sessions?

你是会坐在笔记本或电脑前写作，还是总是随身带着东西？

Do you sit down in front of a notepad or a computer or something, or do you just always carry something with you?

是的。

Yep.

所以对于音频听众来说，约翰拿出了一个小本子，那种可以放进口袋的小本子，他正给我展示它。

So audio listeners, John has picked up a little pad, the the sort of pad that would fit in a pocket, and he's showing me that there it is.

所以你是随身一直带着这个本子或这些本子吗？

He he so you carry this pad or these pads with you all the time, do you?

有时候当你不能用本子的时候，比如你在开车。

Well, sometimes when you can't use a pad, if you're driving.

我的意思是，我现在已经不能开车了。

I mean, I can't drive anymore.

这是视力问题。

It's a vision thing.

但当我开车时，我用一个手持录音机，可以用一只手操作，还不用看它。

But, when I was driving, I had a handheld dictaphone that I could I could do with one hand and I didn't have to look at it.

是的。

Yeah.

在我的床头板上，还有另一个手持录音设备，你知道的。

On the headboard of my bed, I have another handheld dictaphone thing, you know.

有时候我用它只是为了把想法停下来，好让自己能睡着。

Sometimes that's just to get things to stop thinking about things so I can get some sleep.

但是

But

因为你躺在那里，思绪不停地打转，你会想：对，我得把这记下来，于是你就对着录音机胡乱说一通，然后就能睡着了。

Because you'll lie there and your thoughts are going turning round and round, and you thought, Right, I've got to note this down, and you just sort of ramble into the dictaphone and then you can actually sleep.

对。

Yeah.

那个想法本身并不会让你睡着。

That thought of that's something, it doesn't lead to sleep.

你知道的

You know

不，这是真的。

No, it's true.

当你突然想到，哦，这是个点子。

When you're like, Oh, that's an idea.

这是个好主意。

That's a good idea.

然后你的大脑迫切希望完成这段灵感。

Then your brain desperately wants to conclude that bit of inspiration.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，早上在录音笔里录下的大部分内容都是胡言乱语。

Of course in the morning, most of us on the dictaphone is nonsense.

但偶尔也会有一些值得保存的东西。

But every once in a while, there's something that was worth saving.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以你确实是经常在移动中写作，随时记录下来，然后我猜你之后会回去进行真正的创作、编辑和重写等等。

So it's definitely the former that you're just always writing on the go, noting down And then I suppose you then go back to actually composing, editing, rewriting and so on.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

你知道吗，我告诉那些刚开始写俳句的人，重要的是要写很多糟糕的俳句。

You know, what I tell people who are just starting with haiku is it's important to write a lot of bad haiku.

因为

Because

如果你告诉自己，只有写对了才能做，那这就是导致写作障碍的良方。

if you tell yourself that I will only do it right, That's a prescription for writer's block.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

不管有多少灵感涌来，都拿过来用吧。

Take whatever volume of inspiration comes to you, you know, and use it.

等到你进入运用技巧打磨素材的阶段时，就要做自己的编辑。

And then later on, when you're at the stage of applying craft to the material, you know, be your own editor.

那时你可以严厉批评，找出哪些写得好，哪些写得不好。

Then you can be critical and then you can figure out which ones worked and didn't work.

但别把灵感的水龙头关掉。

But, you know, don't shut up the tap.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

再说，这和单口喜剧有相似之处。

Again, parallels with stand up.

我的意思是，我也可以用同样的说法来描述单口喜剧：你必须经历很多次失败，不断磨练自己的技艺。

I mean, I I could just say exactly the same thing with that, that you've gotta get a number of bad you could just, you know, fail a lot and hone your craft.

但学习英语也是如此，你不能指望从一开始就每次都做对。

But also learning English, which is the same thing that you can't just expect to just do it right every time from the start.

你必须经历很多错误，反复尝试，失败后再回来从中吸取教训。

You have to get, you know, get a lot of errors lot of trial and error of trying something, failing, and and then kind of coming back to learn from your mistakes.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

失败是一种重要的学习工具。

Failure failure is an important learning tool.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

也许是最好的。

Perhaps the best.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

所以现在我有一些基于或受你某些俳句启发的问题要问你。

So now I've got some questions for you based on or inspired by some of your specific haikus.

我在这里做的是，把我之前读过的你的一些诗作为起点，我想用它们来展开一点对话。

So what I've done here is I've taken some of your poems that I read out previously, and I'd actually like to use them as the starting point for a little bit of conversation.

在某些情况下，我会问你一些看起来可能有点具体或随机的问题。

In some cases, I'm gonna ask you questions that might seem a bit specific or random.

这些问题更像是跳板，用来向你提问一些轶事类的事情之类的。

They're kind of like jumping off points for just asking you questions, anecdotal things, and things like that.

其他问题可能会问到具体的俳句以及它们的真正含义，因为我自己阅读时产生了多种解读，我想知道你是否有一个特定的想法。

And other questions might ask you about the specific haiku and what it actually means because reading them myself, I had several interpretations, And I was curious as to, know, whether you had one particular idea in mind.

是的。

Yeah.

这些你可以随意跳过。

Feel free to pass on any of these.

我不希望你感到必须讨论我的

I don't wanna make you feel like you have to discuss your I

随便吧。

feel free.

你真的这么想？

You do?

好的。

Okay.

很好。

Good.

让我说明一下，除非我发现有人完全误读了一个词，否则我从不告诉别人他们误解了我的诗。

Let me just say that I never tell anybody they've misinterpreted my poem unless what I see is that they have completely misread a word.

因为如果你理解错了词，那我们就无法产生共鸣了。

Because if you've got the wrong word then it's we're not we're not connected.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以你很乐意写下自己的作品，然后放手，让读者自行解读吗？

So you're you're you're quite happy to write your thing and and let it go and then let the reader take their own interpretation?

我认为这对尤其是俳句作家来说是一项重要的能力。

I think that's an important skill for for especially for a haiku writer.

是的

Yeah.

我发现我最喜欢的是那些最开放、最富有弹性的，我能看出，哦，这要么讲述了一个快乐的故事，也可能是一个悲伤的故事

I I found the ones that I enjoyed the most were the ones that were most the most open ended and where I could see, oh, this this tells either a happy story or a a potentially a sad

故事。

story.

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

所以第一个，这其实相当随机。

So the the first one and this is quite random, really.

第一个是：在地铁上，一个女人拿着乐谱，嘴唇微动。

The first one is, on the subway, a woman with sheet music moving her lips.

对吧？

Right?

你还记得写过那个吗？

Do you remember writing that?

是的。

Yes.

我当然记得。

I sure I sure do.

在地铁上，一个拿着乐谱、嘴唇微动的女子。

On the subway, a woman with sheet music moving her lips.

所以我想问的是，你经常观察路人吗？这会给你带来灵感吗？

So my question about that is basically, do you do you often people watch, and does it give you inspiration?

我妈妈听到这个一定会很高兴。

My mother would be happy to hear this.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

她鼓励我们观察路人，但小时候我们认为这无聊透顶。

She to encourage us to people watch, and we thought that was awful boring as little kids.

但没错，当然。

But yeah, sure.

我觉得人们非常有趣。

I think people are fascinating.

我的意思是，你问我是否记得写过那段话。

I mean, you asked me if I remember writing that.

我记得我当时坐在哪里，以及地铁车厢里另一个乘客相对于我的位置。

I remember where I was sitting and where this other person was sitting in relation to me on a subway car.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

在纽约？

In New York?

在纽约。

In New York.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

那么，到底是什么让你觉得，嗯，

And so what what what was it that made you think, right.

我得把这个记下来。

I've got to write this one down.

我想，除了很明显的是，这是一幅描绘某人正在做某件独特却又能让人完全理解的事情的速写之外，让我觉得特别有趣的是，

Well, I think what made it particularly interesting to me, besides sort of the obvious things of this is a sketch of of a person doing some something unique, and at the same time completely understandable.

我认为首先是当我感受到她身边的音乐和地铁的噪音时，

I think the first thing was the presence of the music as I sensed it for Her, and the noise of the subway.

地铁非常嘈杂。

The subway was extremely noisy.

这是布鲁克林线，车还是老式的。

This is a Brooklyn line where it's like the old cars.

而且

And

她沉浸在自己的音乐中，听到了我听不到的东西。

involved she with her music and she was hearing something that I couldn't hear.

即使她真的在放音乐，我也听不到。

And I couldn't have heard it even if she was playing the music though.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

就是啊。

Just Yeah.

有意思。

Interesting.

你会不由自主地想，她要去哪儿呢？

And you kinda think to yourself, where is she going?

她是学音乐的学生吗？

Is is she a music student?

她是去音乐学院之类的吗？

Is she on her way to conservatoire or something?

是的。

Yeah.

只是对别人生活的一次有趣一瞥。

Just an interesting glimpse into someone's life.

另一个与音乐有关的例子是，她想要唱歌的冲动，让我的音乐之爱变得复杂。

Another one on the theme of music was complicating my love of music, her urge to sing.

她想要唱歌的冲动，让我的音乐之爱变得复杂。

Complicating my love of music, her urge to sing.

所以，我想可以这样描述一个突然感到必须唱歌的女人，而你就在那里。

So I guess a description of a a woman who suddenly felt compelled to sing, And there's you.

你是个音乐爱好者，但这次有点过头了。

You're a lover of music, but this this was a bit too much.

这关于某个特定的经历吗？

Was this about a specific experience?

我能问问你这件事吗？

Can I ask you about it?

嗯，在我看来，这是一首误导性的诗，你知道的，因为这首诗就是它表面上说的那样。

Well, it's it's a in my mind, it's a poem of misdirection, you know, because the poem is what it says.

但同时，它也复杂化了我对她的爱，对音乐的爱。

But also, it's complicating my love of her, my love of music.

好吧。

Okay.

所以，没错。

So that Right.

但现在完全是另一个故事了。

But now it's a totally different story.

现在这个女人出现在你的生活中。

Now this woman is in your life.

这不仅仅是你需要陪一下午的普通人。

This is not just some person that you've you you have to spend the afternoon with.

是的。

Mhmm.

这是一种选择。

That's a choice.

顺便说一下，我最亲密的朋友之一希拉里·谭是一位管弦乐作曲家，也是我们当地俳句小组的成员。

By the way, one my dearest friends, Hilary Tan, was a composer of orchestra music, and also a member of our local haiku group.

我在写作、表演和视觉艺术方面被赋予了一些天赋，但在音乐方面却没有。

And I have been gifted with some ability in the area of writing and then the area of acting and then the area of visual arts, but not in music.

而且

And

我与希拉里的相处如此融洽，部分原因是我没有什么技能可以炫耀。

my getting along with Hillary, I think so well partly had to do with the fact that I had no skill to sort of flaunt.

我见过她和其他一些想炫耀自己音乐知识的诗人在一起，那场面非常尴尬。

I've seen her with other poets who wanted to show how much they knew about music, and it was very difficult.

什么？

What?

是因为她不想了解吗？

Because she didn't want to know?

她是那种比任何和她交谈的人都更懂行的人。

She's you know, she's she knew she knew better than anybody who talked to her.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他们试图向她炫耀自己的音乐知识，而她呢，确实不感兴趣。

So they're trying to show off to her about their musical knowledge, and she she, yeah, wasn't interested.

好吧。

Okay.

她只是被迫表现得礼貌，但你知道的，并没有完全敞开心扉。

And she was just sort of forced into being gracious, but, you know, not not entirely open with you know?

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

是的

Yes.

好的

Okay.

所以音乐是我们之间的桥梁，但有时这座桥上还设有收费站。

So music is a bridge between us, but it's also it's a bridge that sometimes has a tollgate.

懂吗？

Know?

当然。

Absolutely.

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，两个人可能都特别热爱音乐，但依然可能合不来，因为他们的喜好并不一致。

I mean, you can have two people who absolutely love music, but it might not work because, yeah, they they it's not a sort of mutual they don't enjoy the same things.

事实上，这可能是最具分裂性的事情。

In fact, it can be the most divisive thing.

音乐迷之间经常会因为音乐问题发生激烈争执。

Music music fans can you know, have big disputes about music.

我的意思是，你看看披头士的粉丝们。

I mean, you know, look at fans of the Beatles.

如果让他们讨论什么是最棒或最差的歌曲，他们可能会为此大吵一架。

If they if you get them discussing, you know, the the the best or worst songs, then they can end up having big arguments about it.

好的。

Okay.

下一个我要跟你说的是，我做的很多事情都涉及我的身体。

Next one I've got for you is, so much of what I do involves my body.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得这件事。

I remember that.

我记得写过那个。

I remember writing that.

2001年，我在波士顿参加了北美俳句会议。

I was at the haiku North America conference in 2001 in Boston.

我当时坐在路边。

I was sitting on a curb.

真的吗？

Really?

就在街上？

Just in the street?

嗯，就在会场外面。

Well, outside of the venue.

是的。

Yeah.

在人行道上。

On the sidewalk.

我突然想到，就开始笑起来了。

And it just occurred to me, just started laughing.

恰好有一位加拿大期刊的编辑在那里。

There happened to be like an editor of a Canadian journal there.

她就问我为什么笑。

Like she just asked me what I was laughing about.

于是我立刻把那些话用文字表达了出来。

And so, I immediately put it into words, those words.

太棒了。

That's great.

我的意思是，我今天早上读了这一首，因为我今天早上录制了我俳句系列的第二部分，里面也包含了一些你的作品。

I mean, I read that one this morning because I recorded part two of my haiku episode this morning, and that included some more of your your work.

而这一首让我想起了我父母最近对我说过的话。

And that one well, it made me think of things that my mom and dad said to me recently.

我曾在播客中采访过他们两人，聊聊生活方方面面，我爸爸特别提到，衰老是悄悄袭来的。

I interviewed them both on the podcast about life in general, And my dad specifically said, you know, old age creeps up on you.

他说：‘我不可能这么老了，’他这么说。

And he said, I can't I can't be this old, he said.

他还说，你总会在某一天突然意识到，有些事情你再也做不了了。

And he said, you know, you just realize one day that there's certain things you can't do.

所以我去父母家帮他们修房子，换灯泡之类的事。

So I went to my parents to help them with the with the house, changing light bulbs and things.

你知道的。

You know?

我妈妈说，她不能再爬梯子了，也看不到头顶的灯泡。

My mom said, can't go up a ladder anymore, and I can't look up at a light bulb.

当我换灯泡时，会开始感到头晕，还有各种酸痛，以及做这些事带来的种种不便。

While I'm changing it, I start to get dizzy and other things, you know, aches and pains and just the inconvenience of having to do things.

而且，我今年48岁了，但每天也能感受到这些变化。

And, I mean, I'm I'm I'm 48, but I feel it too every day.

只是做些小事也很麻烦，比如弯腰穿鞋，或者抱着我儿子走一段路送他去托儿所，就是这样。

Just the inconvenience of having to get down to put your shoes on and to carry my to carry my son up the road to take him to his daycare center and just yeah.

这有点让人精疲力尽。

It's it's a bit exhausting.

所以我也说不准。

So I don't know.

你会怎么回答这个问题？

How would you answer that?

变老是一种什么感觉？

How is it getting older?

罗伯特·特鲁斯特说过这样的话。

Well, Robert Trust said this.

他在诗《 Oven Bird 》中写道，这只鸟用近乎无声的方式问：如何面对一件日渐衰微的事物。

He said that in his poem, The Oven Bird, he said that the bird asks in all but words what to make of a diminished thing.

生活就是这样一点一点变得衰微的，你知道吗？

And life becomes a diminished thing little by little, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我已经接受了。

I've accepted.

两年前我遇到一个问题，导致视力严重下降，以至于现在我无法再开车，不得不重新学习如何使用电脑和写作——这些我以前做起来轻而易举的事情。

I don't so so two years ago, I had a problem that resulted in me having a serious loss of vision to the point now where I can no longer drive and where I had to learn how to redo things that I especially with the computer and writing, you know, I had done for years with ease.

当然，我现在多希望能轻松地做这些事啊。

Of course, I wish I could do those things easily now.

但我也很享受寻找替代方案、找到其他解决办法的过程。

But I have also enjoyed the process of finding alternatives, of finding another workaround.

总的来说，我觉得生活中的一切都是利弊并存的。

It's My feeling in general is that everything in life is an asset liability situation.

任何发生的事情，都可能既是优势，也是劣势。

Anything that's happening is both an asset potentially and a liability.

有时候，其中一方面会非常明显。

And sometimes one or the other is really obvious.

这为什么是优势，或者这为什么是劣势，都非常清楚。

It's really clear why this is an asset or really clear why this is a liability.

但另一方面始终存在。

But the other side of it's always there.

通常，它可能需要一些时间才会显现。

Know, usually it may take time to emerge.

所以我确实为失去以往的能力而感到哀伤，但我也在享受创造新能力来填补这些空白的过程。

So I do mourn the loss of faculties I had before, but I also am enjoying the process of creating new faculties to fill the gaps.

是的。

Yeah.

塞翁失马，焉知非福。

Every cloud has a silver lining.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，听到你对这件事持积极态度，说即使在你描述为劣势的情况下，也可能存在一些资产或积极面，虽然一开始并不明显，但这让人感到欣慰。

I mean, it's it's heartening to hear you being positive about that, saying that even in a situation that as you describe as being a liability, there are maybe not obviously at the beginning, but there are assets or positives to these things.

我们通过回顾来了解自己的道路。

We know we we know our we know our path by looking back at it.

但如果我们意识到，回顾过去时那些真理始终如一，我们就可以将这些道理应用到展望未来上。

But but if we realize how consistent the truths are about what we're looking back at, you know, we can apply those to looking forward too.

你这是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

我的意思是，当我回顾过去时，你通常不会在当下同时看到某个情境中的优势和劣势。

Well, I mean that if I look back You don't often see both the asset and liability in any given situation in the moment.

你当时只会看到其中一方。

You see one or the other in the moment.

但如果你回看过去所有的这些情境，你就会发现，每件坏事发生时，如果它没发生，那些好事也就不会出现。

But if you look back at all those situations in the past, you can then see that everything, something bad happened, but like if it didn't happen, this other good thing wouldn't have happened.

而每件好事发生时，也可能带来某种损失。

And something good happened, but that created a situation where you had a loss over it.

好吧，过去一直都是这样，那么你也可以推断未来也会如此。

Well, that's the way it's always been in the past, then you can also presume that's the way it's going to be in the future.

是的。

Yeah.

这有助于你应对对未来的焦虑。

So that helps you deal with the anxiety of what's to come.

你总会觉得坏事会发生，但好事也会来。

You kind of think bad things will come, but then also good things.

对。

Yep.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

我还有一个例子要告诉你。

I've got another one for you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

试图融入。

Trying to fit in.

该让我儿子练习平行停车了。

Time for my son to practice parallel parking.

是的。

Yeah.

你注意到这一点有什么特别吗？

What do you notice about that one?

我注意到这一点有什么特别吗？

What do I notice about that one?

嗯，'融入'这个词有双重含义。

Well, the double meaning of fit in.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就是这样吗？

Is that is that it?

嗯，

Well,

那就是，你知道的，当然。

that's you know, sure.

但是

But

试图融入，因为很明显，他正在努力融入社会。

Trying to fit in because, obviously, he's trying to fit into society.

他不仅要学开车，还要让车真正停进车位里。

He's got trying to learn to drive, but also literally trying to fit his car into the space.

嗯。

Mhmm.

试图融入。

Trying to fit in.