身份认同、心态、口音与英语学习——对话多语言演员Ivan Doan [972]

对。

Right.

所以这就是你的六种语言。

So that's your that's your six languages.

那么，你是什么时候学会这些语言的？

And so, when did you learn them?

哪些是你在童年时学会的，哪些是后来学会的？

Which ones did you learn in childhood, and which ones have you learned later?

我的意思是，你有没有在成年后学过这些语言？

I mean, have you learned any of those languages as an adult?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

全部都是。

All of them.

我的意思是，英语在学校里学过，但基本上只是基础英语。

I mean, English was like English was always like at school, but it was pretty much basic English.

我的意思是，在任何一个后苏联国家，只要在学校学过英语的人，其实都说不好英语。

I mean, any anybody who studies English at school in any of those post Soviet countries doesn't really speak English.

你知道的吧？

You know?

这差距还挺大的。

It's like very pretty big.

我的意思是，你肯定教过很多来自那个地区的学生，对吧？

I mean, I'm sure you've had many students from that part of the world, you know?

所以是的。

So Yeah.

你知道问题在哪，因为英语的结构和语法跟斯拉夫语系差别很大。

You know what the issues are because the, English structure and grammar is quite different from, you know, Slavic languages.

你知道吧？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

So yeah.

我的意思是，他们中的大多数人都有意识地学习，我觉得我当时已经二十出头了，差不多是这个年纪。

I mean, most of them are, like, consciously, I would say when I was already, like, in my maybe early to mid twenties, something like this.

好的。

Okay.

行。

Alright.

那你当时是怎么做的？

So how how did you do it?

我们要不要聊聊英语？

Should we talk about English?

那你和英语的故事是怎样的？

What's your what's your story with English then?

这again是受到表演的驱动。

Again, it was motivated by acting.

所以我在莫斯科待了一段时间，但其实我不太喜欢那里。

So I was for some time in Moscow, I didn't really like it.

所以我和他们说话的时候，大概是二月底左右。

So I've I and it was we're speaking like the end of February.

于是我心想，好吧，我对西方方向更感兴趣。

So I thought, okay, I'm more interested in the Western direction.

我得用英语做点什么。

I got to do something in English.

我开始用英语做一些事情，比如制作内容。

I started doing some things in English like producing.

那时候，网络剧的形式非常流行。

At that time, web series format was super popular.

于是我找了一些住在基辅的美国人和英国人，我们一起制作了一些英文小剧集，这就是其中一件事。

So I got some people like Americans, some Brits who were living in Kyiv, and we started doing some small episodes in English, and that was one thing.

我认为，在那种环境中，沟通让我学得特别快，进步神速。

The communication, I would say, within that environment really made me learn it, like progress super fast.

除此之外，当然还需要有意识地倾听，并主动寻找必须身处那种环境的机会。

Apart from that, of course, conscious listening and looking for situations where you have to be in that environment.

我觉得这更像是我的方法。

I would say this is more like my method.

我不太热衷于理论，也不喜欢读语法书。

I'm not so much into theory, into reading grammar books.

我当然也会看看语法是什么，但我觉得这并不是我的方法。

I I can look at what the grammar is, but I don't feel this is my method.

我觉得我的方法更自然、更有机，就像孩子学习语言的方式。

Feel my method is more natural, organic, kind of like how children learn.

孩子根本不会去读语法。

Children don't really read grammar.

有趣的是，我还可以跟你说另一个故事。

The funny thing is I can tell you another story.

那时候，为了学习，我经常和说英语的人交流。

At that time, like, to learn I was com so I was communicating with people who speak English.

其中一些是摩门教徒，你知道的，那些走遍世界各地的人。

Some of them were, you know, Mormon Mormons, you know, who who who go around the world.

在乌克兰，他们所做的就是教英语。

And in Ukraine, what they were doing, they were they were teaching English.

国际摩门教徒。

International Mormons.

是的。

Yeah.

教会

The church

教英语的国际摩门教徒。

international English teaching Mormons.

没错。

Exactly.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

我以前不知道还有这种事。

I didn't know that they that was a thing.

他们在教你英语的过程中，也试图让你改信摩门教吗？

And they are they trying to convert you to Mormonism as well the process?

是的。

That's yes.

就是这样。

That's the that's the thing.

你知道的？

You know?

我的意思是，要让人改信任何东西都很困难。

I mean, It's difficult to convert into anything.

我有自己的信仰。

Have my own thing.

我在那儿有几个特别好的朋友。

I had a couple of really nice buddies there.

后来，他们中的一些人开始给我打电话。

At some point, some of them started calling me.

他们打电话时会说，嘿，伊万。

And they would call and say, hey, Ivan.

我这儿有个家伙。

I have this guy here.

他问我，现在完成时是什么？

And he's asking me, what is present perfect?

天哪。

Oh my god.

真的吗？

Really?

我回答说，什么？

I say like, what?

你不知道吗？

You don't know?

我说：不知道。

I'm like, no.

我真的完全不知道，老兄。

I I have no idea, man.

什么现在完成时？

Like, what present perfect?

你知道的，我早就学过这些了。

You know, I have been I have all that.

你知道吧？

You know?

哦，这就是现在完成时？

Oh, that's present perfect?

所以我的意思是，母语者根本不知道它在语言学上究竟是怎么回事。

So, I mean, native speakers have no idea how it actually is, it is linguistically speaking.

在德语里，情况也是一样的。

In German, it's the same thing.

因为学德语的时候，人们学德语比学英语更复杂，涉及到各种格和性别变化。

Because learning German, when people learn German, it's more complex than English in terms of all these cases and then genders.

英语没有性别区分。

English no genders.

人们学德语时真的会疯掉。

People are really they get crazy learning German.

德国人也帮不上忙。

And Germans cannot help.

德国人只是觉得这么说是对的，那么说就是错的。

Germans, they just know it sounds right and sounds wrong.

你知道的吧？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

所以如果你问他们，等等。

So if you ask them, wait.

这里是与格、宾格还是属格？

Is it a dative case here or accusative case or genitive case?

我只是这么脱口而出。

I just say it so.

但这非常有趣，因为它确实告诉我们人们是如何学习语言的。

But this is very interesting because it it it this does tell us about how people learn their languages.

对吧？

Right?

你是从上往下学，而不是从下往上学。

That that you you learn it from the top down rather than from the bottom up.

但当你成年后学习一门语言时，想用母语者学习语言的方式去掌握它，可能会很困难、很神秘，你必须寻找其他途径和方法。

Except that when you when you're an adult and you approach, the task of learning a language, it it can be difficult and mysterious to try and learn it in the same way that native speakers learn their language, and you have to try and find other routes and other ways.

很多时候，你确实需要去看规则，把语言拆解成其他方式来理解它。

And a lot of the time, you do have to kind of, like, look at the rules and sort of, like, break it down in other ways in order to try and get to it.

但通常这样做非常不自然。

But, but often, that's very unnatural.

我的意思是，昨天在课堂上，我在教学生如何讲述轶事，也就是讲故事。

I mean, yesterday in my classroom, I was teaching my, students about telling anecdotes, you know, telling stories.

结果我们涉及到了一些关于过去完成时、过去完成进行时和一般过去时的用法，这些内容。

And what came up was some stuff about, you know, using past perfect and past perfect continuous and past simple, all these things.

而且，说真的，这变得非常不自然。

And, basically, I mean, it it became so unnatural.

我经历过很多次这种情况：当你讨论过去完成时，就是在描述发生在你所谈主要事件之前的事件。

I've been through this so many times where you get into the thing about, well, past perfect is you're describing events that happened before the main events that you're talking about.

所以，这里的主要事件是这样，而那些事件发生在它们之前，但在句子中却排在后面。

So here here's the main things, and then these things happen just before, but it comes after in the sentence.

这很快就会变得非常抽象，完全不自然。

And it very quickly becomes very abstract and completely unnatural.

最后我们聊到了这个话题，我当时问：你还好吗？

And we ended up having that conversation where the I was saying, are you okay?

大家都还好吗？

Is everyone alright?

因为教语法常常让我学生有这种感觉，嗯。

Because that's the effect that teaching grammar often has on my my students is that Mhmm.

我觉得好像自己狠狠打了他们每个人一拳似的。

I feel like, I don't know, if, like, I punched them all in the stomach or something.

我问：你还好吗？

I'm like, are you are you alright?

大家都没事吧？

Is everyone okay?

有个人说：这听起来太不自然了。

And one person said, this this seems very unnatural.

我不得不表示同意。

And I had to agree.

我说：当然，确实如此。

Was like, It of course, it is.

这确实不自然。

It is unnatural.

但你知道，这只是你不得不做的一件事之一，是你必须采用的方式之一。

But, you know, it's just one of the things that you it's just, like, one of the ways you had to do it.

要自然地掌握它很困难，所以你不得不把它拆解开来学习。

It's it's difficult to learn it naturally, so you kind of have to, you end up having to kinda break it down.

但无论如何，学习你正在学的语言时，一定要多实践、多主动使用。

But, anyway, but, certainly, like, it's very important to do things and be be active in the language that you're learning.

通过这个过程，你可以逐渐习得、掌握，并通过练习提升你的能力。

And through that process, you can sort of, you know, acquire it, pick it up, and develop your skills through practice.

这似乎就是你当时在做的事情。

It seems to be what you were doing.

你刚开始做这件事时，英语水平应该是基础水平，或者说是中级或中高级吧？

Your your English was quite basic then, I suppose, or sort of intermediate or upper intermediate at time you started doing this?

我觉得是中级水平。

I would say intermediate.

我会说

I would say

中级。

intermediate.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

通过互动，你和这些摩门教徒上了课。

And through interacting and you had these lessons with these Mormons.

我的意思是，这些课程在某种程度上挺有趣的。

Well, I mean, those are funny lessons in a way.

然后最终，他们只是邀请你去他们的教堂，展示一些短语，说，哦，这是英式俚语。

So was and then eventually, they just invite you to their church, and they just show a couple of, like, phrases, and they say, oh, that's British slang.

这是美式俚语。

That's American slang.

他们不会解释语法，因为你知道，他们根本不知道语法到底是什么。

So they they wouldn't explain the grammar because, you see, they they had no idea, like, what the grammar actually is.

他们会写下一个短语，通常是有两个人一起。

And they would would write a phrase, and they'll usually, there's two of them.

你知道吗？

You know?

就是两个人。

There's, like, two guys.

他们从不单独行动。

They never go alone.

是两个人，他们会写下一个短语，比如 'give me the skinny'。

There's two guys, and and they would write a phrase something like like, give me the skinny.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们说那是英式俚语。

Like, they said that's British slang.

还有就是，给我点内幕消息。

And there's like, give give me the skinny.

好像是这样的。

Think it was something like this.

你知道的？

You know?

就像，是的。

Like Yeah.

另一个就说：你确定这是英式俚语吗？

And the other one's like, is it are you sure this is British?

我觉得这是英式俚语。

Like, I think it's British.

而且

And

你就坐在那儿，对这事笑得不行，没错。

you're sitting there just having a good laugh over this, I Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

所以那并不是真正的英式英语。

So it was not really English English.

只是他们自己的说法。

It was just their thing.

只是去听他们怎么说，因为我觉得，演员最重要的品质之一就是倾听和观察。

Just listening how they because I mean, think one of the most important qualities of an actor is listening and observation.

这就是你学习的方式。

That's how you learn.

所以对我来说，就是观察这些人是如何交流的。

So to me, it's just observing how these guys communicate.

所以如果我想学会扮演一个摩门教徒，比如，我就会只是坐着观察他们，看他们用什么词，怎么彼此对视。

So if I wanted to learn to play a Mormon, for example, I would just sit and look at those guys, what kind of words they choose, how they look at each other.

所以对我来说，这是这个过程的一部分。

So to me, it's part of this process.

这对我来说很管用，正如人们所说。

This works for me, as they say.

我的语言水平通过观察别人就提高了，你知道的。

My language level goes up you know, just by observing people.

当我开始交流时，我会试着去运用这些。

And then when I start communicating, you know, that I try to maybe use it.

你知道吗？

You know?

这非常有趣，因为昨天我刚读了一些东西。

It's very interesting because I was just reading yesterday.

昨天 apparently 发生了很多事情。

A lot of things happened yesterday apparently.

但昨天，我在读关于大脑如何处理语言的研究，一些有助于我们理解如何学习英语和其他语言的发现，表明当我们参与所谓的多模态交流时，学习效果最好。

But yesterday, I was I was reading about the way that the brain processes language and, some research that helps us to understand how we learn English and other languages and, that we do it best when we we're involved in what's called mo multimodal communication.

这意味着，例如，学习英语不仅仅通过语法规则——这一点人人都知道，还要结合各种其他方式，比如观察肢体语言、通过实践学习、通过动作、倾听、阅读等多种方式。

So that means, for example, learning English not just through, let's say, grammar rules, which everyone knows, but also combining it with all sorts of other things, like, observing body language and different forms of learning, learning through doing, you know, learning through, like, including the way you move, listening, reading, all sorts of things.

所以你当时在观察这些人，观察他们互动的方式、肢体语言，还有他们的语调、面部表情等等，这很有趣。

So it's interesting that you were kind of observing these guys and the way that they were interacting and their body language and probably their tone of voice, their facial expressions and things.

所有这些因素加在一起，让你的大脑形成了各种不同的联系，因为它们本质上是一体的。

All of it together means that you your brain sort of makes all these different connections because it's all one thing, really.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

不过他们有没有试图让你改信摩门教呢？

Did they ever did did they did they try to convert you, though, to Mormonism at some point?

他们是在什么时候说‘好了’的？

At what point were they like, right.

好吧。

Okay.

我们已经给你足够的英语了。

We've given you enough English.

现在你得开始，让我们谈谈教会吧。

Now you have to now let's talk let's start talking about the church.

我的意思是，他们总是谈论教会，但只是放一些电影之类的。

I mean, they talk about the church all the time, but they just they show some movies, you know, that kind of thing.

你知道的。

You know?

我觉得他们其实并不特别激进。

Like, they're they're not really extremely aggressive, I think.

你知道的。

You know?

但他们只是放电影，你知道的，讲讲那本书是什么？

But they just they would show movies, you know, speak about, what's book?

《摩门经》。

The Book of Mormon.

那是什么来着？

What's what is it?

约瑟·史密斯。

John Smith.

约瑟·史密斯。

John Smith.

你知道的，那位先知。

You know, the prophet.

他们只是讲讲这个。

They would just speak about it.

他们就只是谈论这个。

They just talk about it.

你知道的。

You know?

但在我看来，它从来不会太过激进。

But it's never really too aggressive in in my opinion.

正如我所说，也许这也和我的背景有关，因为我接触过多种文化、传统、宗教等等。

As I said, because maybe it's also because of my background, because of this multicultural kind of cultural kind of a thing and seeing different cultures, traditions, religions, and all that stuff.

你知道的。

You know?

所以某种程度上，我能进行比较，并处于中间位置。

So I I can in a way compare and be somewhere in the middle.

你

You

知道吗？

know?

就看看那个吧。

Just look at that.

好的。

Okay.

这对那些人有效。

That works for those people.

这对这些人有效。

This works for these people.

就像语言学习一样，我认为有些人学习方式不同。

Just like with language learning, I think there's people who learn in different ways.

但关于我们提到的所有这些组成部分，对我来说是有效的。

But what we actually said about all these different components, that works for me.

我认为语言不仅仅是语法，不仅仅是这个，不仅仅是那个。

I think a language is not just grammar, just this, just that, just that.

我可以给你一个关于这种文化差异的很好的例子。

I can give you a very good example of this cultural difference.

例如，如果你记得，我刚刚想起来，你之前说过，我突然想起了这件事。

For example, if you remember there was I just remember, you were saying I just remembered this.

大概五年前或六年前有一部剧叫《切尔诺贝利》。

There was a show, maybe, like, five years ago, six years ago called Chernobyl.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

好像是英国拍的，讲的是切尔诺贝利的事情。

Think it was a British so about, you know, Chernobyl.

非常棒的节目。

Great great program.

对。

Yes.

讲的是切尔诺贝利灾难的戏剧化演绎。

About a sort of dramatization of the Chernobyl disaster.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

真的很棒。

Really good.

所以这是一部非常好的剧。

So it was a really good show.

但因为我懂俄语，他们演的都是俄罗斯人或乌克兰人。

But because I speak Russian, they all play kind of Russians or Ukrainians.

乌克兰人会被当作苏联人。

Ukrainians are gonna be Soviet people.

但大部分都是英国演员。

But mostly, those are British actors.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

我观看它是因为我懂这门语言。

And I watch it because I know the language.

我知道人们实际是如何交流的。

I know I know how people actually communicate.

我了解他们的肢体语言。

I know the body language.

我懂得他们的表情。

I know the expression.

你懂吗？

You know?

所以我觉得，他们每个人都演得非常好。

So I see I mean, they all they all do great.

我的意思是，口音很到位，一切都很棒，但就是有种感觉，从他们的眼神里，或者他们的表现方式上，让我觉得他们其实是英国人。

I mean, the accents are good and everything, but it's just like something in the in their eyes in how they maybe they show it shows me they're actually British.

他们并不是苏联人。

They're not Soviet.

你知道吧？

You know?

而且，他们这么做是因为在这些情境下，比如一部关于不同国家、说不同语言的人的电影或电视剧——以乌克兰为例——如果是英语制作，就必须做出一个决定。

And also also, they're they're doing it because in these sorts of situations where, let's say, there's a movie or a TV show about people in a different country where they speak a different language, in this case, in in in Ukraine, there's if it's a English language production, they have to make a decision.

他们是试图用某种乌克兰口音的英语，还是就用他们正常的口音？

Do they try to do some sort of, like, Ukrainian accent in English, or do they just use their normal accents?

而且在选角方面，我想他们也得试着挑选一些可能有特定口音的演员，你知道，他们会选什么口音？

And also in the casting, I suppose, they have to try and choose actors that maybe have and, you know, what accent do they choose?

在《切尔诺贝利》中，他们都用了这种口音，很多人带有典型的英格兰北部口音。

And in Chernobyl, they all spoke with this with these sorts of like a lot of them had these kind of northern English accents.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这很有趣，因为他们成功地映射了这些口音，就像英语中的刻板印象一样——比如在英格兰核电厂工作的那种人，来自英格兰北部的中层管理者之类的。

And it was an interesting thing because they managed to map these because it's sort of like English archetypes, kind of like, guys who would work in a nuclear power station in England, middle managers from the North Of England or something.

而那就是他们能想到的最接近的替代方案。

And that was like the closest thing they could get to something.

但显然，他们最终呈现出一种英伦风格。

But, obviously, yeah, they ended up with the sort of English vibe.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但我认为，只有来自乌克兰并熟悉那种氛围的人才能察觉出差异。

But I think it's only people who are from Ukraine and know the vibe will see the difference.

你知道的？

You know?

但我认为英国人可能注意不到这一点。

But I think people in The UK might not notice that.

说到口音，比如你观看一部好莱坞电影，听到某人需要说俄语口音时。

Just like actually, if we speak about accents, would like, if you watch a Hollywood film and you hear somebody like, they need to speak with a Russian accent, let's say.

我的意思是，95%的情况下，那根本不是真正的俄语口音。

I mean, I would say 95% of the time, it's it's not exactly the Russian accent, which is real.

你知道吗？

You know?

这是好莱坞对口音的想象。

It's it's a Hollywood vision of the accent.

但大多数美国人，甚至我觉得英国人和来自英语国家的人，可能都不会注意到这其实并不地道。

We but but the the majority of Americans and I would even think even Brits and, like, people who are from English speaking countries, they probably won't won't notice that it's actually not authentic.

你知道吗？

You know?

不。

No.

你必须真正了解。

You have to really know.

你得懂。

You have to know.

你知道吗？

You know?

也许你得亲自去那里，你知道的，才能听到。

How to maybe you have to go there, you know, to hear.

然后你就会看到我们了。

Then you would just see us.

只是有点不一样。

It's just it's just a bit different.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

知觉在这里也起着至关重要的作用。

Perception plays a huge role here as well.

当然。

Absolutely.

对。

Yeah.

所以你基本上一开始是用英语工作，做这些项目，同时也跟那些摩门教徒之类的人交流。

So you you basically started kind of working in English and doing these projects and things as well as, you know, talking to these Mormons and so on.

那之后你去了哪里？

And so then where did that take you next?

我的意思是，你后来去了美国还是英国？

I mean, did you then go to The States or go to The UK?

还是说，是通过你的表演工作，才迫使你的英语水平提高了？

Or did you was it through your acting work that really your English it forced your English to improve?

我开始接到一些英语项目，本质上都是英语项目。

I started getting some projects like English language English language projects, essentially.

你知道的，有些是美国人，有些是英国人，有些是欧洲人，他们都需要用英语。

You know, some Americans, some UK, some European where they would need, it in English.

而且，是的，我认为通过这种方式，我取得了更大的进步。

And, yeah, that that I I think, that way I progressed further.

你知道的？

You know?

所以通过

So through

嗯？

mhmm?

抱歉。

Sorry.

我本来想说，这些项目是完全按剧本进行的吗？

Was gonna say, do you these projects, were they, like, a 100% scripted?

你是说，你面对的是一个预先写好的剧本，需要你去背诵和记忆，还是有很多即兴发挥和自发性的成分？

So were you kind of dealing with a prewritten script, which you then had to kind of learn and remember, or was there a lot of improvisation spontaneity?

主要是按剧本的，但在真实的电影拍摄现场，任何剧本都可能被迅速修改。

Mostly scripted, but it's always like if like, in in a real movie set situation, any script can be changed quickly.

你知道的？

You know?

因为纸上写的是一回事，而你真正身处那个情境时又是另一回事。

Because one thing it's on on the page, it's one thing, and then you're in the actual situation.

你会发现有些事情和你原本想的不一样。

You see that some things are not the way you thought they would be.

你知道的？

You know?

然后你就得适应。

And then you have to adapt.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yes.

剧本是写好的，但可能会非常快地被修改。

It is scripted, but it can get changed super quickly.

你需要的语言技能是否超出了剧本上写的内容？

Do you need language skills beyond what's written in the script?

我只是想知道，为了能够演绎剧本而提升英语，是否是一种可能的进阶方式。

Just wondering if working to be able to deliver the script was a was a potential way that you leveled up your English.

但我是说。

But I yeah.

我想这都是整个过程的一部分，而且

I suppose it's all part of the And

而且不仅仅是工作本身，还包括试镜。

and also and also and also not only the the work itself, but auditions.

我的意思是，我认为现在的大多数演员记忆力都很好，90%的时间你都是在试镜。

I mean, I think most actors today have a pretty good memory 90% of the time you just do auditions.

而且即使在疫情之前也是如此，但在疫情期间，非洲地区95%甚至99%的时间都是自拍试镜。

And also today, before COVID as well, but during COVID and Africa was ninety five percent or ninety nine percent of the time, it's self tapes.

所以你只需要录下自己，然后发送出去。

So you just record yourself and just send it.

就是这样。

That's it.

你不需要去那里。

You don't go there.

而且通常截止时间非常短，只有两天，有时三天。

And usually the deadline is really short, like two days, sometimes three days.

如果是大场景，他们可能会给你几天时间，但通常就只有一个场景。

If it's a huge scene, they can give you several days, but it's like one scene.

有时候你只有24小时，你知道吗？所以有时候速度非常快。

Sometimes you have twenty four hours, you know, so sometimes it's super fast.

所以你得……你的记忆力必须非常活跃，你没有太多时间。

So you have to you know, your memory should be super active, you know, to you can't you don't have a lot of time.

所以我觉得这也帮助我学得更快，因为你必须记住大量文本，非常

So I think that also helped to learn faster because you have to learn you just have to memorize a lot of text very

快。

fast.

是的。

Yeah.

这正是我在想的。

That's that's kind of what I was thinking.

有趣的是，演员工作和语言学习之间存在一些共通之处。

And it's interesting that there are several crossovers, between sort of like working as an actor and learning a language.

而且，你知道，这两者是相互补充的。

And, you know, they they're quite complementary things.

正如你所说，你需要有很好的活跃工作记忆，才能记住语言的片段和内容。

As you said, like, you like, you gotta have this really good active working memory to be able to recall sort of strands, chunks of of of language.

此外，还有多模态的方面——不仅要记住词汇和语法，还要能表达出来。

And then there's the multi mode multimodal aspects of not just remembering words and grammar, but being able to deliver those things.

这包括我们之前谈到的那些其他因素，比如发音、自然度等等。

And that includes all those other things we talked about before, you know, like the the there's the pronunciation, and then there's the the naturalness and all that stuff.

某种程度上，语言学习者是否可以把自己想象成演员，以此来提升语言能力？

In a way, like language learners potentially could sort of imagine that they're actors, in order to improve their language skills?

我觉得因为在表演中，最重要的是情感，当然。

I I think because because in acting, the most important thing is emotion, of course.

我的意思是，任何人都能读台词，但关键是真实感。

It's not I mean, anybody can read lines, you know, but it's about authenticity.

关键是理解这个特定情境中的人。

It's about understanding this human being in this particular situation.

所以你学习并说出的那些台词，都与情感相关。

So those lines that you learn and and and say, they are related to emotions.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

这又让我想到我的英语课，我会做一些关于发音的练习。

And this this again makes me think of my English lessons where I'll do something about pronunciation.

我喜欢用句子甚至全文来教学，鼓励学习者理解何时该升调、何时该降调，哪里该停顿，哪里该强调，以及语调的起伏变化。

And I like to work with sentences or even texts, and I'm encouraging my learners to know when to when they should be going up, when they should be going down, where the pauses are, where the emphasis is, the rise and fall of the voice, and all those things.

到了一定程度，我会和整个教室互动，努力鼓励他们把情感和感觉融入到所说的话中。

And it gets to the point where I'm working with the room, and I'm trying to encourage them essentially to put some feeling and emotion into what they're saying.

这简直就像一个小型表演工作坊。

And it becomes like a little acting workshop.

所以，是的，我认为这两者之间的交叉点很有趣。

So, yeah, that's, I think, that's interesting, the crossover between the two things.

我觉得这很棒。

I think it's great.

我觉得这是一种非常好的方法。

I think it's a great great approach.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得我在基辅和后苏联国家看到的英语教学方式非常理论化。

And I think I think what what I actually saw back in Kyiv and post Soviet countries, the way they would teach English was very theoretical.

所以人们会读很多书，做很多练习，但其实他们需要开口说。

So people would read a lot, they would do exercises, but then they actually need to speak.

他们就是很难做到这一点。

They just have a hard time doing it.

他们可能理解很多，但仍然有问题，因为如果你跟一个带有本地口音的老师学习，比如乌克兰口音，那你之后就得去听英国人的说话。

They might understand a lot, still an issue with that because if you learn from a teacher whose accent is like local, like, let's say, Ukrainian accent, then you have to listen here, like, people from The UK.

我的意思是，伦敦口音可能还好。

I mean, from London may could be, you know, still okay.

但如果是苏格兰人，或者利物浦人，你就不太习惯那种口音了。

But if it's somebody from, you know, Scotland or, you know, from, I don't know, maybe Liverpool, you know, you're not used to that accent.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以对他们来说这很困难。

So they have it's difficult for them.

你知道吗？

You know?

确实如此。

Absolutely.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

好

Okay.

所以是的

And so yeah.

那你是在美国还是英国工作了？

Then did you did you you got work in The States or The UK?

你第一个国际性的英语国家演出角色是什么？或者你的第一个

What what was your first sort of international, acting role in English speaking country or your first

其实是在基辅。

It was actually it was even it was actually in Kyiv.

当时是在基辅，因为许多西方制作团队那时会在基辅和乌克兰拍摄，也就是在2014年之前，俄罗斯占领克里米亚之前。

It was in Kyiv because many, western productions actually shot they they would shoot in Kyiv and Ukraine back then and before we're speaking before 2014 more, like, before the, Russians took to Crimea.

你知道吗？

You know?

因为克里米亚当时是电影拍摄的热门地点，那里的自然风光太棒了，还有海洋等等。

Because Crimea was a pretty popular spot for filmmaking because nature is so great and the ocean and everything.

是的。

Yes.

所以那会儿确实是在那里。

So it was actually back then.

它甚至现在还在乌克兰，然后还有一些在欧洲拍摄。

It was even it's still in Ukraine and then some stuff in Europe.

我实际上还没在美国拍过戏。

I haven't actually shot in in The US.

我为美国制作公司工作过，但很多都是在欧洲拍摄的。

I worked for US productions, but many of them are shot in Europe.

所以是这样。

So Yeah.

出于财务原因。

For for financial reasons.

是的。

Yes.

但现在我不确定会发生什么。

And it but now I don't know what's gonna happen.

你知道吗？

You know?

美国总统曾提到，他考虑对在海外拍摄的制作征收高额税收。

The The US president's he he has mentioned that he thinks about, also putting high taxes on anything which is shot, abroad.

但他还没这么做，我不确定。

So he hasn't done it yet, but I don't know.

不清楚。

Don't know.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

谁知道会发生什么呢？

Who knows who knows what's gonna happen?

那么关于你的成功经历，你有哪些体验呢？我的意思是，你说你不太使用方法论，也不太去学习语法之类的东西。

So in terms of your successes then, what what kind of experiences or I mean, you said you don't really use methodology theory as much or certainly don't sort of like study grammar and things like that.

但你有没有注意到一些特别的方法、方式或经历，对你提高英语语言能力有明显帮助？

But, have you noticed any particular methods or approaches or experiences that you've had that have really helped you, like notice noticeably helped you improve your language skills in English?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

嗯，我肯定认为听是最重要的。

Well, I mean, listening for sure.

在这个播客盛行的时代，如果你反复听同样的内容，我觉得非常有用。

If you if you listen to the same like, today in this age of podcasts, I think it's super useful because you can listen to the same thing several times.

你知道的。

You know?

如果你没听懂某个地方，可以查一下生词，然后再听一遍。

If you didn't understand something, you can look up the words and then listen to that stuff again.

我会这么做。

I would do that.

我以前学德语的时候就是这样做的。

I I did that with German, let's say.

我还会留意他们经常重复使用的词汇，也就是说，这个词反复出现。

And I would also identify which words they tend to use several times, which means like this word keeps popping up.

我不明白这是什么意思。

I don't know what that means.

在德语中，这种情况特别明显。

In German is a particular case.

他们会加入一些其实没有实际意义的词。

They throw in words that actually don't mean anything.

他们就是喜欢随便加进去。

They just like to throw them in.

那他们为什么一直往里加这个词呢？

So why do they keep throwing that word in?

然后你一看，发现它的意思是这个。

And then you look at it and say, that means that.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

好的。

Okay.

然后你就明白它为什么真的在那里了。

And then you understand why it's actually there.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以我会说，多听和重复。

So I would say listening and repetition.

我还会列一些我想学的单词清单，你知道的，特别是当一些词汇更复杂时，比如在某些情境下更专业的术语。

I would also make lists of, words that I, wanna learn, you know, especially if it's some more complex vocabulary, you know, more technical maybe in some situations.

比如拍电影，如果你想在英语国家工作或与英语团队合作，你就必须学习特定的电影术语，因为电影行业的术语总是不一样的。

Or like for filmmaking, you do have to learn like particular filmmaking vocabulary if you wanna work in an English speaking country or with English speaking teams, you know, because, filmmaking vocabulary is always different.

你知道吗？

You know?

这可不是日常用语。

It's it's not normal language.

你知道吗？

You know?

你得知道他们在片场使用的那些专业术语，这样才能快速沟通，理解他们对你的要求。

You you kinda have to you need to know those professional terms that they use on the set, you know, to be able to communicate quickly, understand what they want from you.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

所以这是一个相当有压力的情境，因为每个人的时间都很宝贵。

So that's quite a high pressure situation because, you know, everyone's time is is is precious.

所以你必须迅速做出反应。

So you have to react pretty fast.

如果他们对你大喊一些指令之类的东西，那会有很多术语，我想你得

If they're shouting out sort of like, orders at you or something, it's a lot of jargon, I suppose, that you have to kind

应对这些。

of deal with.

这正是我想表达的意思。

That's exactly what I meant.

是的。

Yes.

就是那些特定的术语，你知道的，人们使用的那些词。

Exactly the jargon, you know, those particular words that people use.

你知道的。

You know?

我的意思是，有些人，大多数人知道一些基本的词，比如‘开拍’和‘停’，但并不是每个人都用这些词。

I mean, some people like, most people know, like, some basic words like action and cut, you know, but not everybody uses that.

你知道的。

You know?

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

比如在德国，他们不用‘开拍’这个词。

In Germany, for example, they they they don't use action.

他们甚至不用德语里对应的词。

They don't they don't even use the German word for that.

他们只是说‘你懂的’，意思是‘请’。

They just say, you know, which means, like, please.

请。

Please.

请。

Please.

这很有趣。

That's that's interesting.

或者像，苦涩。

Or like, bitter.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

在英语里，是‘action’。

In English, action.

是的。

Yeah.

听起来很棒，对吧？

Which sounds pretty awesome, doesn't it?

不过你可以用很多不同的方式来说。

Although you can say that in lots of different ways.

apparently, 克林特·伊斯特伍德。

Apparently, Clint Eastwood.

克林特·伊斯特伍德会怎么说？

What does Clint Eastwood say?

哦，我现在想不起来了。

Oh, I can't remember now.

当你准备好了。

When you're ready.

是的。

Yeah.

就是这样。

That's it.

当你准备好的时候。

When you're when you're ready.

太好了。

That's great.

这是个不错的做法。

That's a good approach.

是的。

Yeah.

很好。

That's nice.

这真是个很好的方法。

It's it's really good approach.

好的。

Okay.

所以，嗯，我的意思是，我只是在想你，把你和我遇到的其他学习者做比较，同时也在想我的听众，他们在想些什么呢？

So, well, I guess I mean, I'm just thinking about you and comparing you to other learners I've met and, thinking about my listeners and just thinking to them think thinking, what are they thinking at this point?

他们会不会想，你知道吗，伊万，你是个特例。

Are they thinking, well, you know, Ivan, you know, he's a special case.

他就是那种天生就能轻松掌握东西的幸运儿。

He's just one of these lucky people who's able to pick stuff up.

你觉得情况是这样的吗？

Is that is that the situation you think?

或者，呃，我明白，我明白。

Or or or Well, I I get I get

我有时会听到人们有这样的反应，但我总是说，其实并不是说我什么都不用做。

I get this, response from people sometimes, but I always say, like, well, it's not that I don't have to do anything.

我的意思是，你确实需要很强的自律。

I mean, you do have to have a lot of discipline.

我的意思是，如果你是个演员，你肯定需要比大多数工作都更多的自律。

I mean, if if you're an actor, you definitely have to have a lot of discipline, more discipline than in most war jobs.

我觉得亚当·德赖弗曾经说过，他原本想参军。

I think Adam Driver actually said that he wanted to be in the military.

他其实想去伊拉克。

He wanted actually to go to Iraq.

你知道，但我认为他当时

You know, but I think he had

也想去。

Wanted to go to it too.

想去。

Wanted.

是的。

Yeah.

他好像伤到了什么，我觉得是髋部之类的。

He want he had damaged something, I think either his hip or something.

我不太记得了。

I don't remember.

他摔断了腿之类的，你知道的。

He broke a leg or so he could, you know.

然后他去纽约的朱利亚德学院学习表演。

And, then he went to study in Juilliard in his acting school in New

纽约。

York.

而且，

And,

他注意到，他说这相当有趣。

what he noticed that he said was interesting enough.

表演和军事其实并没有太大不同，因为纪律起着至关重要的作用。

Acting, acting is not so different from the military because, like, discipline plays a huge role.

我的意思是，如果你没有纪律，那就根本行不通。

I mean, if you're not disciplined, it just doesn't it's not it's it's impossible.

是的。

Yes.

这是第一件事。

It's it's the first thing.

你必须非常自律，我的意思是，这和语言学习很相似。

You you have to be super so, I mean, it's similar with languages.

我的意思是，自律起着关键作用。

I mean, discipline, comes into play.

对我来说，这不仅仅是能力的问题，还因为我的背景，比如武术，它也完全围绕这一点。

To me, it's a little bit I I would say not only because the the ability, but also, because my background, like, martial arts, which also all about this.

我七岁的时候就开始练习了。

I was I started when I was like seven.

我至今仍然每天坚持锻炼。

I still like work out every day.

你知道吧？

You know?

所以这也是其中的一部分。

So it also it is also part of that.

你知道吧？

You know?

所以，你知道，你必须一遍又一遍地去做，反复回来练习。

So, you know, just you have to do it again and do it again and come back to that.

我觉得我还没有掌握那件事。

I think I I still haven't mastered that thing.

我仍然没理解这个表达，但它总是一再出现。

I still haven't understood this expression, and it keeps popping up.

所以我不理解它，这让我很困扰。

So it bothers me that I don't understand it.

因此，你需要有纪律，回去重新看它或再听一遍。

So you have to have the discipline to go back and look at it again or listen to that again.

我总是说，人的能力各不相同。

I always say people have different abilities.

但即使一个人不是特别有天赋，比如，但如果他有极强的自律，他可能比那些有天赋却浪费时间、不够专注的人进步得更快、走得更远。

But even if it's somebody who is not super talented, let's say, but he has super high discipline, he might progress even faster and go even further than somebody who is talented but is sort of like wasting his time and doesn't really focus that much.

我见过这样的情况。

I've seen those cases.

表演是一个很好的例子，适用于这类人。

Acting is a good example for those kind of people.

你看到很多非常成功的人，他们可能并不是世界上最有天赋的人，但他们非常专注。

You see many people who are super successful who might not be the most talented people in the world, but they're so focused.

他们只是极其专注。

They're just extremely focused.

在音乐领域，这种情况很常见，有些人可能不是最好的歌手，但他们非常努力，比如我想起Lady Gaga，她就像一头工作不息的马。

In music, you see that a lot, who maybe not the best singers, but they're just like I mean, some of are like, if I think of Lady Gaga, you know, she's just I think she just works like a horse.

你知道吗？

You know?

她就是非常活跃。

Like, she she's just she's just super active.

你

You

知道吗？

know?

虽然也可能有些歌手天生就能轻松做到，比如艾瑞莎·弗兰克林之类的，她好像只要张嘴唱歌就特别轻松。

Although there might be singers too, like, who who can do it easier, you know, like Aretha Franklin or something, who's just like who seems like she just opens her mouth and it's so easy.

你知道吗？

You know?

太轻松了。

It's so easy.

也许她不需要那么努力。

Maybe she doesn't have to work that much.

你知道吗？

You know?

但关键是自律。

But, discipline.

自律。

Discipline.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，当然。

I mean, absolutely.

当我们谈论自律时，我们指的是即使在困难、不愉快的情况下，也愿意坚持去做，坚持不懈，并对自己有较高的标准。

And so when we talk about discipline, we're talking about being willing to keep doing something even when it's difficult, even when it's not pleasing, persevering, keeping keeping going, and, having sort of high standards for yourself.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，当然。

I mean, sure.

这完全说得通。

That totally makes sense.

愿意投入时间，不断回来坚持做下去。

And being being willing to put the time in and to keep going coming back to it.

而且，其实也有点像固执，嗯。

And, yeah, and basically kind of like being stubborn as well Mhmm.

我觉得这正是其中的很大一部分。

Which I think is a a lot of it.