我妈妈讲述她的人生 [977]

那是我祖父——我父亲的父亲——的一位同事在出售一栋房子。

And it was a colleague of my grandfather's, my father's father, who was selling a house.

那正是合适的房子类型。

And it was just the right kind of house.

于是妈妈决定买下它。

And so mum decided to buy it.

我想伦纳德，也就是我的祖父，一定在实际操作和资金等方面帮了她很多，但这确实非同寻常。

And I suppose Leonard, my grandfather, must have helped her extent with the practicalities and the money and everything, but it was quite something really.

这意味着当爸爸两年后回家时，他有了一个可以居住的地方。

It meant that when dad did come home two years later, he had somewhere to live.

是的。

Yeah.

难以置信。

Incredible.

是的。

Yeah.

你提到他当时很困难。

And you talked about it being difficult for him.

我的意思是，他一定经历了创伤后应激障碍之类的问题。

I mean, there must have been post traumatic stress and stuff like that.

我觉得是的。

I think so.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这太惊人了，真的。

It's amazing, really.

我的意思是，有房贷之类的东西吗？

I mean, were there mortgages and things like that?

那她是怎么付钱的？

Well How did she pay for it?

这我就不知道了。

That's what I don't know.

据说，他说了，他到底说花了多少钱？

Apparently, he said well, how much did he say it cost?

600英镑，我想。

£600, I think.

600英镑。

£600.

是的。

Yeah.

那是一栋漂亮的小房子。

And it was a nice little house.

很多年后我们回去看过它。

We went back to see it many years later.

里克和我带他参观了他童年时所有常去的地方、住过的地方等等。

Rick and I took him on a tour around all his childhood haunts and where he lived and everything.

那是在约克郡吗？

Was that in Yorkshire?

在约克郡。

In Yorkshire.

是的。

Yeah.

因为全家都来自约克郡。

Because the whole family's from Yorkshire.

是的。

Yeah.

差不多。

Pretty much.

我们真的去看了那所房子，因为那是我出生时他们住的房子。

And we actually went and had a look at that house because it's the house they were in when I was born.

我们站在外面看着那所房子，房主显然看到了我们，心想：他们这是在干什么？

And we were outside looking at the house and the owners of the house obviously saw us and thought, what are they doing?

他们从正门走出来，问：需要帮忙吗？

And they came out of the front door and said, can I help you?

于是我们解释了来意，他们邀请我们进屋，这很暖心。

And so we explained why we were there and they invited us in, which was nice.

爸爸看到了房子现在的样子。

Dad could see the house as it was now.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

是的，而且。

And yeah.

你还记得他是怎么回应的吗？

Do you remember how he responded to that?

哦，就像你能想象到的祖父那样，充满极大的兴趣地回应，你知道的。

Oh, in the way that you could imagine your granddad responding just with great interest, know.

哦，对，对，那张桌子就在那儿。

Oh, yes, yes, that's where that table was.

我们当时就在那里做了那些事。

And that was what we did there.

并没有太多情感流露，或者类似的东西，只是非常直接、理性且合乎逻辑。

Not with great emotion or anything like that, just very straightforward and rational and logical.

他不是那种人。

He wasn't that sort of person.

对。

No.

他确实不太表露很多情绪。

He didn't really show a lot of emotions.

是的，确实如此。

He didn't, no.

但这件事对他一定意义重大。

But it must have meant quite a lot to him.

是的，是的，我肯定。

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，看到我出生后头几个月住过的房子，对我来说很有趣。

And it was interesting for me, of course, to see the house that I lived in for the first few months of my life.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对。

Yeah.

你对童年的记忆是什么？

What do you what are your memories of childhood?

那些美好的回忆、快乐的时光，或者困难的经历，都是些什么呢？

What are the what are the, you know, good memories, fun times, or difficult things?

美好的回忆。

Good memories.

我有一个非常幸福的童年。

I had a very good childhood.

很有趣的是，我听一个访谈类播客，节目中第一个问嘉宾的问题总是：你最早的记忆是什么？

It's funny because I listen to a podcast where one an interview type podcast, and the first question that is asked of all the guests is, what's your first memory?

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是一个很难回答的问题。

And it's a very difficult question.

我经常在听的时候想，我的最早记忆是什么呢？

And I often, you know, when I'm listening to it, I'm thinking, well, what's my first memory?

我记得我们住在伍尔弗汉普顿的时候。

And I can remember when we lived in Wolverhampton.

我们搬去那里时，我大概是……天啊，你看，我其实不太记得了。

We moved there when I was oh god, you see, I don't really know.

我当时是个小孩子，大概七岁或八岁吧。

I was a small child, I suppose about seven or eight.

你们搬到了伍尔弗汉普顿这座城市？

You moved to Wolverhampton, the city?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你住在城市环境中。

You lived in an urban environment.

父亲，你知道，战后他终于振作起来，决定要做什么了。

Father, you know, he finally got his act together after the war and decided what he was going to do.

他从事保险行业，并在伍尔弗汉普顿找到了一份工作。

And he worked in insurance and he got a job in Wolverhampton.

所以他们不得不离开约克郡，搬到了伍尔弗汉普顿，我弟弟就是在那里出生的。

So they had to leave Yorkshire and moved down to Wolverhampton, which is where my brother was born.

哦，这是个美好的回忆，因为我弟弟比我大三岁半。

Oh, that's a good memory because my brother is three and a half years older than me.

也许我

Maybe I

他比我们大三岁半。

was He's three and a half years than us.

1952年。

1952.

所以也许我们搬过去的时候我年纪还很小，大概吧。

So maybe we moved there at about in about when I was quite young, maybe.

当然，我知道。

Of course, I know.

我们搬去那里时，我才八个月大。

I was eight months old when we moved there.

但我对那所房子的记忆

But my memories of that house

等一下。

Hold on a second.

所以你是出生在

So you you were born

我出生在巴恩斯利

I was born in Barnsley

在约克郡。

in Yorkshire.

那时父母住在这所房子里。

Parents were living in the time in this house.

那是我母亲在战争期间买下的房子。

That was the house that my mother bought during the war.

你爸爸在打仗的时候。

When your dad when your dad was in the war.

是的。

Mhmm.

然后你八个月大的时候

And then when you were eight months old

对。

Yeah.

我们

We

搬走了。

moved.

然后你们搬走了。

Then you moved.

所以这大概是1950年。

So this is probably about 1950.

是的。

Yes.

差不多是那样。

Something like that.

然后你们搬到了伍尔弗汉普顿。

You moved then to to Wolverhampton.

伍尔弗汉普顿，你们搬进了伍尔弗汉普顿市。

Wolverhampton, and you moved into the city of Wolverhampton.

嗯，是的。

Well, yes.

算是城市的边缘地带。

Kind of the edge of the city.

是的。

Yes.

算是郊区吧。

Sort of suburb, I suppose.

好的。

Okay.

他从事保险行业吗？

And he worked in insurance?

是的。

He did.

然后你的弟弟，我的叔叔尼克，就出生了？

And then your brother, my uncle Nick, was born?

他出生于1952年。

He was born at the 1952.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我其实想起来一件事，我记得我三岁半的时候见过刚出生的弟弟。

And I actually, that's reminded me, I have a memory of seeing my brother when he was born, when I would have been three and a half.

现在很难确定我是否真的有这个记忆，还是只是别人告诉我的，因为你知道，据说我当时对他并不怎么感兴趣，还说他脑袋形状真奇怪之类的话。

Now it's very hard to know whether I actually have that memory or whether it's what I've been told because you know, apparently I wasn't very impressed with him and I said what a funny shaped head or something like that.

我只记得一个脑袋有点尖的孩子。

And I just have this memory of this child with a rather pointy head.

婴儿看起来确实有点怪。

Well babies do look weird.

是的，确实如此。

They do, yeah.

我不确定这到底是真实的记忆，还是只是别人告诉我的。

Now whether that's actually a memory or whether it's just what people have told me, I don't know.

要分清这两者真的很困难。

It's very hard to separate them.

你还记得当时对有个小弟弟有什么感受吗？

Do you remember how you felt about having a little brother?

不太记得了。

Not really.

我不觉得这件事让我受到创伤之类的。

I don't think I was traumatised by it or anything.

我想我只是，你知道的，不，真的不记得了。

Think I just, you know, no, don't really.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得这件事对我的影响并没有那么大，无论正面还是负面。

I don't think it had that much of an impression on me one way or another.

我想它一定产生过影响，但我对此没有任何记忆。

I suppose it must have done, but I don't have any memory of it.

但你曾在伍尔弗汉普顿住了几年，然后搬到了斯塔福德郡，那是紧邻伍尔弗汉普顿北部的一个郡。

But you lived in Wolverhampton for a few years and then you moved out into Staffordshire, which is the nearby county just kind of to the North of Wolverhampton.

是的。

Yeah.

那完全不一样，因为伍尔弗汉普顿的房子非常城市化，而斯塔福德的房子则更乡村化。

That was completely different because the Wolverhampton house was very urban, but the house in Stafford was much more rural.

我们在田野里、铁轨旁和运河边玩得非常开心，都是些危险的地方。

And we had a wonderful time playing in the fields and along the railway line and by the canal, all sorts of dangerous places.

但我们在那里度过了美好的时光。

But we had a fabulous time there.

整天都在户外。

Just outdoors all the time.

一整天都在外面，是的。

All the time, yeah.

你一出去，父母就会说：好了，我们去田野里玩吧。

You'd just go out and your parents would you just say, Right, we're off out to play in the field.

然后你到吃饭时间就回来，或者是的。

Then you'd come back at dinner time or Yeah.

关于某件事

Something on a

我知道，真的很难想象。

I know, it's hard to imagine really.

我记得最近有人提到1962到1963年我们这里经历的那个极其寒冷的冬天。

And I remember there's been some talk recently about the really bad winter that we had here in nineteen sixty two, three.

雪从1962年的节礼日开始下，一直到1963年复活节前后才真正融化。

The snow started on Boxing Day nineteen sixty two and didn't really clear until around about Easter in '63.

我记得很清楚，因为那时候我已经大了不少。

And I do remember that because mind you, was a good bit older by then.

但我还记得走在小路上，田野似乎总是被积雪覆盖，好长时间才再次看到绿草。

But I can remember walking along the lanes and seemingly the fields were always covered in snow, seemed to be ages before we saw the green grass again.

当你那么小的时候，三个月或者类似的时间确实感觉像永远，对吧？

And when you're that age, three months or something does seem like forever, doesn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

好的。

Okay.

我有个问题，关于二战刚结束时出生的事。

I've got a question about being born just after World War two.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我不想过多纠结于二战之类的事。

I mean, I don't wanna dwell on World War two or anything.

但我只是在想想这件事。

But I'm just thinking about it.

很难想象，你出生的时候，距离二战结束才仅仅几年而已。

It's, in a way, crazy to think to imagine that you were born, like, really just a few years after the end of World

二战。

War II.

我父亲在1946年底左右回家，我出生在七月。

My father came home in '19 towards the end of 1946, and I was born July.

是的。

Yeah.

所以非常非常接近。

So it's very, very close.

是的。

Yeah.

你只差大约三年，三年

You're just three years or so, three

还不到半年

and Less a half

三年，是的。

three years, yeah.

爸爸出生于1940年，实际上只比二战结束晚了两年左右。

Dad, he was born in 'forty That's just about two years, in fact, than two years after the end Just of World War

大约晚一年。

about a year after.

在战后初期长大是什么感觉？

What was it like growing up in that immediate postwar period?

你知道发生过什么事吗？

Were you aware of what had happened?

不太清楚，没有。

Not really, no.

我的意思是，配给制和其他那些事情还在继续。

I mean rationing and all that was still going on.

所以那一定是我们生命最初的几年。

So it must have been first few years of our life.

我们肯定吃不到糖果之类的东西，某些食物根本是想都不敢想的。

We can't have had any sweets or anything like that, and certain foods would have been unthought of.

是的，那时候糖和黄油都很少。

Yeah, didn't have a lot of sugar and butter

对了，我还记得一些像炸弹废墟之类的事情。

and No, And I do remember things like bomb sites and everything.

所有的房子都是废墟，还有一些地方什么都没有，你知道的，城里全是荒废的区域。

All these houses, ruinous houses and just areas with nothing, you know, just derelict areas in the town.

但那时并没有那么多，你是个孩子，你会觉得生活本来就是这样，不会想‘这太乱了’或者好奇那里发生了什么。

But it didn't have that much, you you're a child, you think that's how life is, you don't think, Oh, that's a mess, or wonder what happened there, whatever.

这就是生活的常态。

It's just the way it is.

是的，大家都只是默默过日子，没错，当然了。

Yeah, and everyone was just getting on with it really, weren't Yeah, of course.

是的，是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

而且，我经常回想起上世纪60年代我青少年时期，那时我们所有人都对战时那一代人毫不关心。

And also, I mean, I often think back to, you know, when I was a teenager in the 1960s, and how we all none of us wanted to know anything about the war time generation.

我们认为他们太无聊了，总讲战争，我们对此毫无兴趣。

We thought they were really boring and going on about the war and we weren't interested in that.

我现在想想，我们当时真是多么冷漠啊。

And I just think how unfeeling we were really.

我们没有理解他们所经历的一切。

We didn't appreciate everything they've gone through.

我们就是不想了解那些事。

We just, know, Oh, don't want to know anything about that.

你只是想

You just wanted to just

去听披头士的演唱会，听收音机，诸如此类的事情。

wanted to go to Beatles concerts and listen to the radio and that sort of thing.

对。

Right.

真的不可思议。

Incredible really.

你意识到代际差异吗？

Were you aware of a generational divide?

因为当我们谈论世代时，其中一个标志就是所谓的‘最伟大的一代’，也就是你们父母那一代，他们经历了第二次世界大战。

Because that is one of the things that sort of marks if we talk about generations, we've got the greatest generation as they're called, that's your parents' generation that lived through World War II.

之后就是婴儿潮一代。

And then after that, you've the baby boomers.

是的。

Yeah.

你绝对是婴儿潮一代。

And you're definitely a boomer.

我是婴儿潮一代。

I'm a boomer.

是的。

Yeah.

你是婴儿潮一代。

You're a boomer.

当时，随着另类反主流文化运动等，很多现象都反映了婴儿潮一代与最伟大的一代之间的代际分歧。

And there is with the alternative counterculture movement and stuff, a lot of that was about a generational divide between the boomers and the greatest generation.

我想是吧。

I suppose.

我的意思是，你当时意识到这一点了吗？

I mean, was that something you were aware of?

你有没有觉得两代人之间有很大的差距

Did you feel like a big gap between

是的，我父母那一代和我这一代之间差距非常大。

Yeah, there your was a huge gap between my parents' generation and my generation.

非常非常大。

Very, very big.

其实一点也不奇怪。

Hardly surprising, really.

但比如，他们无法理解你对披头士的痴迷和狂热。

But For example, they didn't understand your your your fascination and obsession with the Beatles.

我想他们对此有点困惑。

Well, I think they were a bit puzzled by it.

不太知道该怎么应对。

Didn't quite know how to deal with it.

但我的意思是，他们并没有对此苛刻或严厉。

But, I mean, they weren't horrible or strict about it.

他们只是让我做我想做的事，只是有点用异样的眼光看着我，你知道的？

They just allowed me to do what I did, and they just sort of looked askance, you know?

对。

Right.

但没有，他们其实挺好的。

But no, they were fine.

但当时我并没有觉得，天啊，我和父母那一代之间有这么大的代沟。

But I mean, I didn't think at the time, gosh, there's a big gap between my generation and my parents' generation.

那就是当时的样子。

That was just the way it was.

是的。

Yeah.

而且尽管我们正经历着这样一个重要的时代，我们却非常幸运，一切都变得开放、自由，还有音乐等等一切。

And and although we were living through this momentous time, we were so lucky with everything opening up and freedom and all the rest of it and the music and, you know, everything.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我从来没想过，我们是不是很幸运？

And I didn't think to myself, gosh, aren't we lucky?

我从未想过要把自己的生活和他们的相比。

I never thought to compare my life with theirs.

真的很糟糕。

Terrible, really.

但也不算太糟，因为给自己一个机会，说实话，需要极大的视野和智慧才能跳出自己的局限。

But not really terrible because to give yourself a chance, I mean, it requires a hell of a lot of perspective and a a lot of wisdom to be able to see outside of your own

你正在经历自己的人生。

You're going through yourself.

像这样的经历。

Your experience like that.

你只有在晚年才能获得这种视野。

You only gain that kind of perspective later in life.

所以某种程度上，我是说，我不知道。

So in a way, I mean, I don't know.

一定有句名言能很好地概括这一点，我的意思是，青春浪费在年轻人身上，也许就是这样。

There must be some quote that sums this up nicely, I mean, it's youth is wasted on the young, maybe, something like that.

但你只有在事后才能获得这种视角。

But you're only only able to get that kind of perspective in hindsight.

没错。

Exactly.

所以你不必太过责怪年轻的自己。

And so you can't blame yourself too much, your younger self.

但如果你——我的意思是，我要再问你一个那种老生常谈的问题：如果你能回到过去，跟你上世纪六十年代十二、十三、十四岁时的自己对话，你会说什么？

But if you I mean, I'm gonna ask you another one of those stock kind of questions, which is if you could go back and talk to your, I don't know, what your 12, 13, 14 year old self in the early sixties.

你会对当时的自己说些什么？

Just what would you say to yourself?

有什么想说的吗？

Anything?

在学校里更努力一点。

Be Work harder at school.

更清楚地认识到教育的目的。

Be more aware of what your education is for.

更有自信，因为我一直非常胆小。

Have more confidence because I was always very timid.

是的。

Mhmm.

我没有发挥出自己应有的潜力。

And I didn't really do as much as I could have done.

为什么是学校这件事？

Why the school thing?

为什么要更努力地学习？

Why work harder at school?

哦，因为我上学时不够努力。

Oh, because I didn't work hard at school.

我的意思是，这是昨天提到的另一件事。

I mean, that's another thing yesterday.

我们当时在看学校的成绩单。

We were looking at school reports.

天哪。

Oh, dear me.

我的成绩差得不行。

I mean, were terrible.

你的成绩也没好到哪儿去。

Yours weren't much better.

但是啊，我记得有一份报告上说，光看这份报告，你会以为吉莉安非常愚钝。

But yeah, I mean, there was one, what was it that said about me, you know, you'd think from this report that Gillian was very unintelligent.

实际上，我觉得她非常聪明，只是遗憾她没有好好发挥之类的。

In fact, I think she's very intelligent and it's shame she doesn't use it or something like that.

事实上，我整个学生时代都是这样，我从未真正发挥出自己的潜力。

And that was the way it was through the whole of my life really, that I never really achieved my potential when I was at school.

我根本对学校没什么兴趣。

And I wasn't really into school at all.

根本没有任何学习的欲望或兴趣，这真是件糟糕的事。

Didn't have any desire or interest in learning, which is a terrible thing.

我的意思是，我后来才明白，但上学的时候我完全不懂。

I mean, I got it later, but when I was at school, I didn't.

我真的不知道为什么。

I really don't know why.

这太奇怪了。

It's very strange.

我这里有一份1957年1月的报告。

I've got one report here from January 1957.

所以你当时八岁，和我女儿现在一样大。

So you were eight years old, same age as my daughter at the moment.

综合评语：吉莉安需要努力练习拼写和乘法表，并在课堂上集中注意力。

General report, Jillian needs to practice her spellings and her tables hard and to concentrate during lessons.

行为总体非常好。

Conduct is generally very good.

作文、英语、拼写。

Composition, English, spelling.

如果吉莉安的拼写能提高，她的英语成绩会更好。

If Jillian's spelling were improved, her English marks would be higher.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

当然了。

Well, of course.

算术，就是那种数学。

Arithmetic, that's sort of like maths.

她上课时需要更加专心。

She needs to pay far more attention in lesson time.

还有常识，她通常很有兴趣。

And general knowledge, she's generally interested.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

但你认为你的人生是否因为上学时不够专注而受到影响？

But do you do you think that your life was impacted by not concentrating enough in school?

我想是的，因为我表现得不太好。

I suppose so because I didn't do terribly well.

我从来没有上过大学。

I I never went to university.

但在我年轻的时候，人们不像现在这样普遍上大学。

But then people didn't go to university as a general rule like they do now when I was young.

很多人去了，但我没去，也从未考虑过上大学。

Lots of people did but I didn't and I never considered going to university.

我甚至从来没想过这件事。

I never even thought about it.

我一毕业就去工作了。

I just left school and got a job.

但你那时候是可以那样做的。

And you but you could do that then.

如果没有学历，工作更容易找到。

Jobs were much more easily got if you didn't have qualifications.

我确实有速记和打字的文秘资格。

I did have a I had short hand and typing secretarial qualifications.

所以我得到了一份文秘工作，甚至还没毕业就找到了工作。

And so got a secretarial well, I got a job before I even left college.

是的。

Yeah.

事实上，那时候总是有很多工作机会。

And in fact, there were always loads of jobs going.

当我对第一份工作感到厌倦时，我就申请了另一份工作，然后就得到了，你知道的。

And when I got fed up with my first job, I just applied for another job and got that, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

找工作从来都不是问题。

There was never any problem getting a job.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一项重要的技能。

And that's an important skill to have.

秘书类的。

A secretarial.

嗯，它

Well, it

那时候是的。

was then.

现在不是了。

It isn't now.

如今已经没有秘书这样的职位了。

You don't have such things as a secretary these days.

你当秘书的时候大部分时间都做些什么？

What did you do most of the time as a secretary?

那最基本的、最重要的工作是什么？

What was the, like, the absolute bread and butter of

大概是写信吧。

that Well, correspondence, I suppose.

因为，你

Because, you

知道，写信，抱歉。

know Writing sorry.

写信。

Writing letters.

写信啊之类的。

Writing letters and things.

是的。

Yeah.

打字信件。

Typing letters.

嗯，老板会口述信件内容给你。

Well, taking down the the boss would dictate the letter to you.

你知道的，他会大声说出来，而你用速记法把它记下来。

You know, he'd speak it out loud, and you would use shorthand to write it down.

速记是什么？

What's shorthand?

速记是一种比手写快得多、简洁得多的书写方式。

Shorthand is a a form of writing which is much, much quicker and much shorter than writing in longhand.

它是一种

It's a

我用的是皮特曼速记法。

it's a it's Pitman's shorthand is what I do.

它某种程度上就像一种密码。

It's a kind of code in a way.

是的，就是这样。

Yeah, is.

使用大量的不同笔画。

Using lots of different strokes.

它是基于这样的原理：你写的笔画代表一个发音。

It's based on, you know, you write down the stroke represents a sound.

对，音标。

Right, phonetics.

这就是这个词。

That's the word.

是的。

Yeah.

不是像大多数单词那样拼写，而是按发音写下来。

Not spelling like most words, but you wrote it down phonetically.

我的速记并不出色，但还能应付，他们会口述信件。

And I wasn't brilliant at shorthand, but I got by, and they would dictate letters.

有时候信件多得不得了，一摞又一摞。

Sometimes there were loads of letters, reams and reams of them.

然后你就去打字机前，把速记内容转录成打字信件。

Then you'd go to your typewriter and you'd transcribe it from the shorthand to the typewritten letter.

你学会了高效打字，也就是快速且不出错地打字，这需要一套相当特定的技能。

And you learned how to type efficiently, meaning to do it quickly and without making any mistakes, which is a quite specific set

是的，他们管这叫什么来着？

of It is, what do they call it?

盲打。

Touch typing.

盲打就是完全不看自己的手，只盯着你要抄写的文本。

Typing, where you don't look at your hands at all, you look at what you're copying.

所以我的速记本放在打字机的一侧，我只盯着它，双手自然地完成所有操作。

So my shorthand pad would be one side of my typewriter, and I'd just be looking at that, and my hands would be just doing what was necessary.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你还学到了各种各样的东西，比如如何格式化信件、如何标点。

And also you learned all sorts of things like how to set out a letter, how to punctuate it.

我的意思是，以前有很多规则，但现在我觉得没那么多了。

I mean, were lots of rules, which I don't think there are so much now.

嗯，现在都自动化了之类的。

Well, it's sort of automated and stuff.

是的。

It is.

当然，老板们现在都自己在电脑上处理这些事了。

And of course, bosses just do their own stuff on the computers.

他们不再让秘书来做了。

They don't have secretaries doing it for them.

我觉得现在一切都转向了电子邮件，以及邮件礼仪和邮件写作的规范，可能现在更模糊了。

I think there are sort of now it's all about emails and email etiquette and email conventions of email writing, and it's probably a bit more vague now.

但我认为写邮件仍然有对错之分。

But I think still there are right and wrong ways of writing emails.

那是另一个时候再讨论的问题。

That's another question for another time.

但回到你之前说的学校之类的事情，看来你可能本该更专心一些。

But just going back to so you talked about school and stuff like that, and and we can see that you may maybe you should have concentrated more.

那你小时候在家时呢？

What about at home as a young person?

你曾经惹过麻烦吗？

Did you ever get into trouble?

没怎么。

Not really.

我是个挺乖的女孩。

I was quite a good girl.

好的。

Okay.

我不记得自己曾经真的惹过什么大麻烦。

I don't remember a time of really getting into trouble.

我哥哥过去比我更容易惹麻烦。

My brother was used to get into trouble more than I did.

但没有。

But no.

我那时候非常——这是另一回事。

I I was very that's another thing.

我非常温顺，从不打算吵闹或惹事，当然，这是我的成长方式。

I was very, you know, meek and mild, and I wouldn't dream of making a fuss or mean, mind you, that was the way I was brought up.

我被教育要讨好别人，我想现在人们管这叫这个。

I was brought up to be a people pleaser, I think that's what they call it these days.

对。

Right.

这是因为你是女孩吗？

Is that because you were a girl?

有可能。

Possibly.

是的

Yeah.

有可能

Possibly.

对女孩来说更是如此

It was more so for girls.

但如果你不惹事、安分守己，几乎做到‘眼不见为净’，就被认为是好的

But it was considered good if you didn't make a fuss or you just behaved yourself and, you know, seen and not heard almost.

孩子应该听话，不要多嘴

Children should be seen and not heard.

那是维多利亚时代的想法，但当时仍有一定这种风气

Oh, that's a Victorian idea, but there was still a certain amount of it.

你觉得你哥哥的教养方式有什么不同吗？

Do you think your brother was brought up any differently?

我觉得是的

I think he was.

我觉得他有更多的自由。

I think he had more freedom.

他被允许做更多事情。

He was allowed to do more.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

但他有时间去做这些事。

But then he had the nows to do it.

他想做那些我不愿意做的事。

He wanted to do it, to do stuff that I didn't want to do.

比如什么？

Like what?

他非常爱冒险。

He was very adventurous.

他很小的时候，十一二岁就骑着自行车出去玩。

He'd go out, know, when he was quite young, 11 or 12, he'd go off on his bike.

你知道吗，当我们住在斯塔福德时，他会说，今天我要骑车去利奇菲尔德，那可是一段挺远的路。

You know, when we lived in Stafford, he'd say, well, I'm going to go to Litchfield today on my bike, which was quite a long way.

我妈妈总是说，哦，好吧。

And my mom used to say, oh, okay.

这意味着他骑着自行车上主干道或A级公路。

That means riding off on his bike on A roads or A roads.

是的。

Yeah.

而且

And

当我们搬到萨顿后住过的其中一栋房子，花园尽头有个铁路路堤。

also one of the houses we lived in when we moved to Sutton, it had an embankment at the end of the railway embankment at the end of the garden.

铁路路堤，就是一种往下倾斜的坡道。

A railway embankment, that's like a drop down.

铁路线比花园的地面要低。

The railway was below the level of the garden.

所以那里有一道墙。

And so there was a sort of a wall.

有点像一座陡峭的山坡。

Sort of like a steep hill

是的。

Yeah.

通向铁路。

Down to the railway

而且没有任何围栏，他经常在铁轨上待很久，比如把硬币放在铁轨上，你知道的，火车开过的时候。

And no fence or anything, and he used to spend a lot of time down on the railway track doing things like putting coins on the rail, you know, when the train went by.

所以他收集了很多被压扁的硬币之类的。

So he had all these flattened coins and so on.

而且当然是蒸汽火车。

And of course, it was steam trains.

是的。

Yes.

那就是他对蒸汽旅行、蒸汽机车和蒸汽引擎产生极大热情的地方。

And that's where he got he became very enthusiastic about steam travel, steam trains, steam engines.

我的意思是，能坐在路堤上观看蒸汽机车一定非常棒。

That's I mean, that's that must have been amazing to be able to sit on the embankment and and watch a steam engine

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

沿着铁轨开过来。

Come down the track.

但我自己从来没做过这种事。

But I mean, never did anything like that.

那是他做的。

It was him.

但让我惊讶的是，他居然被允许这么做，你知道，我父母并没有说，快离开那里。

But it amazed me that he was allowed to do it, you know, that my parents didn't say, you know, come away from there.

简直难以置信地危险。

Unbelievably dangerous.

非常危险。

Very dangerous.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你知道，把东西放在铁轨上。

And the thing, you know, putting things on the line.

我的意思是，真的。

I mean, really.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以你说你没有上大学，中学毕业后你获得了秘书的资格。

So then you said you didn't go to university, you left school and you got qualifications as a secretary.

嗯，我离开学校后去了继续教育学院学习文秘培训，然后找到了一份秘书的工作。

Well, left school and went to a further education college to do my secretarial training, then got a job as a secretary.

直到我四十多岁的时候，我才最终完成了大学学位。

It wasn't until I was in my forties that I finally did my university degree.

那时候你对未来的感受如何？

How did you feel about the future at that time?

因为我记得，当我上大学的年纪、刚毕业，甚至更早的时候，我完全不知道自己将来要做什么。

Because I remember when I was university age or had graduated and even before, I never had any idea of what I was gonna do.

没有。

No.

而且它

And it

我一直都不知道该做什么，这一直是个大问题。

was always a major issue that I didn't know what to do.

我记得，是的。

I remember, yeah.

这确实是一场身份危机。

And it was a real sort of identity crisis.

我感到巨大的压力，不知道该如何规划自己的职业生涯之类的。

And I felt a great deal of pressure of like, what are you going to do with your for your career and all this stuff.

你也有类似的感受吗？

Did you feel similar sort of thing?

没有。

Not really.

真的吗？

No?

我只是活在当下，我想。

I was just I lived in the moment, I suppose.

就像我说的，当我对一份工作感到厌倦时，我就换到别处去。

And I enjoyed, you know, as I said, when I got fed up with a job, I'd just move on somewhere else.

我总是在寻找一些更有趣的事情。

I was always looking for something a bit more interesting.

我最后去了BBC，你知道的，非常有趣。

And I ended up at the BBC, which was you know, very interesting.

我想说这话可能不太好，但我就是默认自己会结婚生子。

And I suppose terrible to say it, but I just assumed I would get married and have children.

这么说很糟糕吗？

Is that terrible to say?

嗯，这似乎显得我的目标太低了，我不知道怎么说。

Well, it seems incredible to have such a a low, I don't know.

低得可怜的抱负。

Low level of ambition

是的，至于找工作或事业什么的，我从来就没想过。

Yeah, or to think of getting a job or a career or anything, never occurred to me.

我的意思是，这正是你当时被期待的样子。

I mean, that's just what was expected of you.

确实如此。

It was,

现在情况不同了，女孩们可以选择做任何她们想做的事。

These days it's different and I mean, girls have the option to kind of do whatever they choose.

而且现在人们更期望她们去做这类事情。

And they're expected more to do that kind of thing.

你觉得，被期望不要那么有野心，只做家庭主妇、母亲和妻子，所有事情都包揽，是更容易还是更难？还是被期望两者兼顾？

Do you think it's easier or harder to be expected to just not really be that ambitious and to become a housewife and a mother and a wife and everything, or to be expected to maybe do both?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我只知道，我看着你的家庭，看着你妻子那么努力工作，还有你那种生活方式，

All I know is that I look at your family and your wife who works very hard and you know the way you have the way you

她在事业上非常努力。

She works very hard on her career.

在她的事业上。

On her career.

还有家庭事务。

And family stuff.

是的，但我想说的是，因为她有这份事业，她的大部分精力都投入其中，然后她还得照顾孩子，以及所有这些事情。

Well yeah, but what I was going to say was because she has this career, you know, lot of her energy goes on that and then she has to look after the children as well and all that entails.

当然你也会做很多育儿工作，等等，而里克在我们那种安排下却没有做这些，当时所有家务和育儿都是我来做的。

And of course you do a lot of childcare and what have you as well, which Rick didn't of course when in our set up it was me that did all the home and the child care.

就是像做饭、穿衣这样的事情。

Just stuff like cooking, dressing.

所有事情。

Just everything.

接孩子放学，还有是的，

Picking up from school and Yeah,

他可以专心工作，不用操心家里的事情。

he could concentrate on his job alone, not to worry about you know, things at home.

分工非常明确，我的是家务，他的工作。

There was very differentiation, you know, mine was the home bit, his was the work bit.

是的。

Yes.

你知道吗，我看你们家，心想，天啊，他们是怎么做到的？

And you know, I look at your family, I think, God, how do they do it?

你做了太多事了。

You do so much.

我不知道，这感觉和我小时候的经历很不一样

I don't know, it feels very different to

对我而言。

me.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，我这一代的很多女性做的远比我多。

Of course, many women in my generation did do far more than I did.

你知道，那时候很多女性都有事业。

You know, women did have careers at that time.

只是我成长的环境里，并不期待自己会有事业，我想。

It's just that hadn't been in my upbringing to expect to have a career, I suppose.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

然后，你遇到了爸爸， eventually 结婚生子，之后你还是去上了大学，拿到了学位之类的。

And then, so you met dad and then eventually you got married and had children and stuff like And later on you did go to university, got a degree and stuff like that.

但回到你二十出头的时候，你并没有觉得除了组建家庭之外，还有别的期待。

But going back to when you were in your early twenties and you didn't necessarily feel there was an expectation to do anything other than let's say, set up a home.

是的。

Yeah.

照顾家庭。

Look after the family.

这种想法是在什么时候改变的呢？

When did that idea change at any point?

你有没有某个时刻突然想到：等等，不对。

Did you at some point think, wait a minute, no.

我想我应该多做点什么，我其实挺想多做些的。

I I think I should I I quite like to do more.

我觉得我们确实应该做得更多，是的，比现在……

Think we Well, should do more yes, than

我渐渐意识到，也许我本可以做得更多。

it did gradually dawn on me that maybe I could have done more.

我想，就是那时候我去读了学位。

And I think that's when I did my degree.

但我很幸运，我不需要为了工作而去读学位。

But I was lucky, I didn't have to do the degree for my job.

我只是因为想读才去读的。

I just did it because I wanted to.

里克支持我这么做。

And Rick supported me in doing that.

我只是为了自己，为了自己的教育而去做的。

And I just did it for my own sake and for my own education.

那真的太棒了。

And it was it was just brilliant.

它带来了很大的改变。

It's made a lot of difference

你学的是什么？

What did in my you study?

各种各样的东西。

All sorts.

因为我上了开放大学，那是一所很棒的大学。

Some because I did the open university degree, which is a wonderful university.

它是在20世纪60年代由工党政府，当然还有哈罗德·威尔逊，哦天哪，她叫什么来着？

It was developed by in the 1960s by the Labour government, of course, Harold Wilson and oh gosh, what was her name?

芭芭拉·卡斯尔。

Barbara Castle.

它的设计正是为了像我这样的人——早早离开学校，连A-levels都没读过。

And it was designed for people exactly like me, who left school without any education, didn't even do A levels or anything like that.

但他们可以参加课程并完成学位，而不需要任何其他资格，因为通常上大学时，你必须拥有一定数量的A-levels或其他同等学历才能申请。

But they could join the courses and do the degree without having any further because normally when you go to university, you have to have certain number of A levels or whatever in order to be able to apply for university.

但开放大学，即使你没有任何学历也可以就读，这其实正是我的情况。

Well, the open university, you could do it if you had no qualifications at all, which was me really.

我想我只有四个O-levels。

Think I had four O levels.

而且这是通过远程学习完成的。

And it was done via distance learning.

是的，我在家完成的。

Yes, I did it at home.

我们有学习材料。

And we had materials.

我认为现在不再这样做了，因为随着计算机和互联网的发展，情况已经改变了。

I don't think it's done like this now because things have changed with the computer, in the computer world with the internet and everything.

但当我学习时，我们的材料是通过邮局寄来的，都是纸质材料，这就是我们的教学方式。

But when I did it, we were sent our materials through the post, written materials, which was our teaching.

我们没有老师之类的。

We didn't have a teacher or anything.

是的。

Yeah.

我们只是有这些书面材料。

We just had this written stuff.

所以我们完全靠这本书学习。

And so we did it all from this book.

我们确实有一位导师，大概每个月见一次，每次几个小时。

Wrote it and we did have a tutor who we saw maybe once a month for a couple of hours.

我们会收到论文作业。

And we were given essays to do.

我们会把论文提交给导师并得到评分。

And we would submit the essays to this tutor and get a mark.

在头两年，我们有暑期学校，著名的开放大学暑期学校。

And in the first couple of years, we had summer school, famous open university summer schools.

你以前真的很喜欢那个。

You used to really enjoy that.

哦，那简直太棒了。

Oh, it was brilliant.

所以那时候我差不多快18岁、19岁了，类似那样。

So this is when I was sort of late I was 18, 19, something like that.

可能再年轻一点。

Maybe a bit younger.

可能再年轻一点。

Maybe a bit younger.

好的。

Okay.

那是两周，抱歉，是一周，在大学的暑期。

And it was two two weeks sorry, a week in a university summer.

所以在大学暑假期间，也就是夏天的某个时候，因此叫暑期学校。

So during the university summer, so it would be in the summer sometime, hence summer school.