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本集简介
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你正在收听卢克的英语播客。
You're listening to Luke's English podcast.
更多信息请访问teacherluke.co.uk。
For more information, visit teacherluke.co.uk.
听众朋友们大家好。
Hello, listeners.
欢迎回到卢克的英语播客，欢迎收听这期全新的播客节目，这是为全球英语学习者准备的。
Welcome back to Luke's English podcast, and welcome to this brand new episode of my podcast for learners of English all around the world.
你今天过得怎么样？
How are you doing today?
希望你一切顺利，并且喜欢我最近的播客节目。
I hope you're doing fine and that you've been enjoying my recent podcast episodes.
让我来介绍一下这期内容。
Let me tell you about this one.
这是一期全新的对话节目，今天我将与我的前同事艾玛·卡玛拉·奥尔特加进行交谈。
This is a brand new one, and this is a a conversation episode, and I'm talking today with Emma Camara Ortega, who is a former colleague of mine.
我认识艾玛已经很多年了。
I've known Emma for many years.
我们曾经在同一所学校担任英语老师，一起工作。
We used to work together as English teachers in the same school.
所以我一直想邀请艾玛上这个播客聊聊。
And so I've been meaning to talk to Emma for ages on this podcast.
我一直想请她来节目中谈谈这期的话题，正如标题所示，是关于治疗、心理健康和咨询的。
I've always wanted to get her on the show to talk about the topic of this episode, which, as you can see from the title, is all about therapy, mental health, and counseling.
正如我所说，我和艾玛曾在伦敦英语学校共事。
So Emma and I used to work together at the London School of English, as I said.
她曾经是一名英语老师。
She used to be an English teacher.
我们经常在课间休息时在教师办公室闲聊。
We would hang out a lot in the teacher's room between classes.
周末我们还会一起去酒吧之类的地方放松。
We'd go to the pub and stuff, at the end of the week together.
所以，我们共事的时间很长。
So, we spent a lot of time, working together.
这些年来，我邀请过许多前同事上这档播客。
And I've had lots of my former colleagues on this podcast over the years.
长期听众可能还记得，我曾邀请过各种共事过的嘉宾上节目。
Long term listeners might remember, you know, the various guests that I've had on the show, people I I used to work with.
关于艾玛特别的是，她现在已经不是英语老师了。
And so the thing is about Emma is that, she no longer works as an English teacher.
事实上我记得我们共事时，她已转行成为治疗师和持证咨询师，这个过程相当漫长复杂——她需要考取各种资质，参加多种专业培训，我记得她既要全职教书又要拼命学习。
In fact, I remember when we were working together, she made the step to move into a different career path, and she became a therapist and licensed counselor, which was actually quite a long and complicated process because she had to do various different qualifications, she did lots of different types of professional training, she was studying a lot, I remember, as well as working full time as a teacher.
她完成了所有学业，如今已是完全持证的治疗师和咨询师。
She was doing all her studies, and nowadays she is a fully licensed therapist and counsellor.
她考取的部分资质包括：咨询技能证书、咨询技能文凭、心理动力学咨询文凭、认知行为疗法技能证书、伴侣及人际关系咨询证书、性心理研究、创伤治疗等各种领域。
Just a few of those different qualifications she took: her certificate in counselling skills, a diploma in counselling skills, diploma in psychodynamic counselling, a certificate in cognitive behavioural therapy skills, a certificate in working with couples and other relationships, psychosexual studies, trauma therapy, all sorts of things.
她的专业培训和资质认证列出来有一长串。
There's a long list of her different, professional, training and qualifications.
是的，她现在是一名完全持证的治疗师和咨询师，帮助人们解决心理健康问题。
And so yes, now she works as a fully licensed therapist and counselor helping people with their mental health issues.
这也是本集的主题：治疗、咨询和心理健康。
And that is the theme of this episode, therapy, counseling, and mental health.
我们对话的主要内容包括：首先是我们相识的背景，以及咨询究竟是什么，咨询过程中会发生什么，它适合谁、目的是什么，谈话疗法如何发挥作用。
So the main themes of our conversation include, first of all, our background, how we know each other and stuff, but also what counseling actually is, what happens in a counseling session, who it's for and what it's for, how talking therapy helps.
它通常被称为谈话疗法。
It's commonly called talking therapy.
这种疗法通过谈论你正在经历的问题来为其命名并驯服它——这个短语基本上用于解释：通过命名你的困扰、谈论它们、描述它们，能帮助你更好地应对，获得更多视角和控制力来处理你面对的事情。
This is a form of therapy that involves talking about the issues that you're experiencing in order to name it, to tame it, which basically is a phrase that's used to explain how naming your troubles, talking about them, describing them, helps you to deal with them, helps you to get more perspective and control, in relation to the things that you're dealing with.
我和艾玛探讨了成为咨询师需要什么，包括创造一个安全无评判的空间，与工作对象建立融洽关系、信任和保密的重要性，以及同情心、同理心、鼓励自我接纳、培养边界意识、管理人际关系和自我关怀。我们还聊到日常心理健康，因为显然心理健康是我们都需要关注和处理的事情。
I talked to Emma about what is involved in being a counselor, about creating a safe nonjudgmental space, the importance of building rapport and trust and confidentiality with the people that you're working with, compassion, empathy, encouraging self acceptance, developing an awareness of boundaries, managing relationships with others, and self care, and also just everyday mental health, because obviously mental health is something that we all have to take care of, that we all have to deal with.
当然，我们都会照顾自己的身体健康，或者说我们应该这样做。
Of course, we all look after our our physical health, or we should do.
比如我们会锻炼身体，保持健康。
You know, we do exercise, and we stay healthy.
我们做运动，或者去健身房之类的，以保持身体健康。
We do sport, or we go to the gym and things like that to keep ourselves in physical shape.
我们注意饮食等等。
We look after our diet and stuff like that.
但当然，我们的心灵和心理健康也是我们每天都需要关注的事情，这也是我们这次谈话中讨论的另一个话题。
But, of course, our minds and our mental health are also something that we all should take care of on a daily basis, and that's another thing that we talk about in this conversation.
一些实际习惯，比如睡眠的重要性、锻炼、定期接触阳光、亲近自然和人际交往的重要性，以及在生活中设定界限以避免许多人经历的那种情绪倦怠。我们与手机的关系，使用手机的方式，花费大量时间滚动浏览或所谓的'末日滚动'——在社交媒体上浏览世界各地通常相当负面的新闻故事，这如何影响我们的注意力，如何影响我们的情绪。
Practical habits like the importance of sleep, exercise, getting regular sunlight, access to nature, and personal connections, the importance of setting boundaries in your life in order to avoid a sort of emotional burnout that so many people experience, The relationships we have with our phones these days, the way we use our phones, the way we spend a lot of time scrolling or what is known as doom scrolling, scrolling through social media, looking at the kind of often quite negative stuff that you see in terms of news stories from around the world, how this affects our attention, how this affects our mood.
还有季节性因素，比如季节性情感障碍（SAD）。
And also seasonal things, something known as seasonal affective disorder, S A D.
它通常被称为SAD。
It's often called SAD.
这是一种季节性现象，会随着季节变化影响我们的情绪和情感调节。
And this is a kind of seasonal thing that can affect our mood and our emotional regulation with the changing of the seasons.
例如，我在英国有很多听众。
And for example, I've got a lot of listeners in The United Kingdom, in England.
许多收听节目的听众可能是在英国留学的国际学生。
A lot of lot of you listening to this might be in The UK studying from other parts of the world.
你们可能来自气候截然不同的地方，这对许多在英国学习的英语学习者影响很大。
You might have come from a place where the weather is really quite different, and this is something that affects a lot of students and lots of learners of English studying in The UK.
该如何应对冬季昼短夜长、日照稀少的情况？
How to deal with the fact that during the winter, we do have quite short days, long nights, a lot of darkness, not so much sunshine.
天气可能会让你情绪低落。
The weather can get on top of you.
最终可能导致你身体不适，情绪状态也受到影响。
You can end up under the weather, both physically and also in terms of your emotional state.
那么该如何应对这种情况呢？
So how do we deal with this?
对于应对英格兰这类冬季气候恶劣的地区，我们有什么实用建议？
What tips do we have for managing the kind of difficult winter months in England?
当然，其他许多地区可能也有类似气候，你们居住的地方或许也是如此。
And indeed, in plenty of other places, you know, you might have similar weather where you live.
希望这将是一场既有趣又富有洞察力的对话。
So I hope this is gonna be an interesting conversation and an insightful conversation.
同时，我鼓励大家不仅要反思自身的心理健康状况，还要将其与保持良好心理健康对英语学习的重要性联系起来。
Also, I encourage you to reflect, of course, on your own mental health, but also relate this to the importance of maintaining good mental health for your learning of English.
对吧？
Right?
因为显然，我们必须保持身心健康。
Because obviously we've got to keep ourselves in good shape and keeping our minds in good condition.
这是我们必须要维持的重要基础，以确保我们处于最佳状态，从而尽可能高效地学习英语。
This is a really important sort of baseline foundation foundational thing that we have to maintain in order to make sure we are in tip top condition in order to learn English as as well as possible.
希望大家能在对话中留意到大量与心理健康和福祉相关的有用词汇和短语。
I want you to try to notice plenty of useful vocabulary and phrases relating to mental health and well-being throughout this conversation.
正如你所料，涉及这些话题时，你会听到各种谈论这个主题的常见实用表达。
As you would expect, touching on all these things, you will find, you will hear all sorts of common and useful phrases for talking about this subject.
所以请务必留意这些内容。
So watch out for those things.
本期节目配有PDF文件。
Now there is a PDF for this episode.
里面包含完整对话文本和词汇表。
It's a full transcript of the conversation, but also a vocabulary list.
我精选了大量与本次谈话主题相关的词汇和短语。
And I've picked out lots of different words and phrases relating to all the things that I think are relevant in this conversation.
你会看到完整的词汇表，包含释义、例句以及可供练习使用的问题，帮助你真正掌握这些词汇。
And you'll find a full vocab list with definitions, example sentences, and some some questions that you can use to practice actually activating this vocabulary for yourself.
快去查看PDF吧。
So check out the PDF.
你会发现大量学习资料，绝对能帮助你从这期节目中学好英语。
You'll find loads of stuff there, which will definitely help you to learn English from this, episode.
感谢艾玛作为嘉宾参与节目。
Thank you to Emma for, being a guest on the show.
和她交谈非常有趣。
It was very interesting to talk to her.
我真心希望你喜欢这次对话，觉得它既有见地又实用，同时对你的英语学习也有所帮助。
I really hope you enjoy this conversation, that you find it insightful, helpful, and also good for your English.
闲话少叙，我会在对话结束时再和你聊几句，现在让我们直接进入主题，来认识艾玛并聊聊心理健康、谈话疗法和心理咨询。我们开始吧。
So without any further ado I'll talk to you again at the end of the conversation for a little bit but now let's get straight into it let's meet Emma and talk about mental health, talking therapy and counselling And here we go.
我们到底是怎么认识的？
So how do we actually know each other?
我的听众可能很想知道我们初次相遇的故事之类的。
My audience might enjoy knowing how how we first met and stuff.
所以我们是怎么认识的呢？
So how how do we know each other?
我记得2006年在西克罗夫特广场见过你。
So I think I have a memory of meeting you in Westcroft Square in 2006.
当时你正在紧张地备课。
And you were stressing, prepping a lesson.
离上课还有十分钟，大家都在忙乱，你在剪东西，好像在准备什么教具。
It was ten minutes before lesson time and everybody was stressing and you were cutting stuff out and I don't know, like prepping something.
那是我第一天上班，是的，我想就是那天，虽然我们当天没说过话，但你确实在场。
And it was my first day and yeah, I think that's, and I don't think we spoke on that day, but you were there.
对，我们基本上是在同一时间开始在伦敦英语学院（LSE）工作的。
And yeah, I think we started work essentially at the same time at LSE, at the London School of English.
是的。
Yes.
我当时26岁，快27了。
I was 26, I think, nearly 27.
我们一群人差不多都是同一时期入职的。
And the whole bunch of us started around the same time.
没错。
Right.
我们这群人很棒，对吧？
It's a great bunch of us, isn't it?
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且你比我先离职。
And you left before me.
我是2016年离开的，你是2014年？
I left in 2016 and you left in 2014, was it?
2012年。
2012.
哦，2012年啊。
Oh, 2012.
哇。
Wow.
我在那所学校教了六年书。
So I I spent six years teaching at that school.
这么说你在那里教书得有十年了吧。
So you but you put in, I guess, a decade of teaching there.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我向自己保证不会在那里待超过十年。
And I promised myself I wasn't going to stay there more than a decade.
我觉得十年已经是很长的时间了，对吧？
I thought a decade is is, you know, a long time, isn't it?
天哪。
My goodness.
我生命中的十年啊。
A decade of my life.
那是一段美好的时光，但我知道我不想在那里待更久了。
And it was a wonderful time, but I knew that I didn't want to stay there for much longer.
而且我在那里完成了所有的心理咨询培训。
And I did all my counselling training whilst there.
我想大概是在遇见你后不久开始的。
I think I probably started soon after I met you.
我先参加了一个很短的入门课程，然后拿了证书，接着又修了文凭课程，后来又拿了另一个文凭，完成了临床实习，还在多家慈善机构做志愿者。
I did a really short intro course and then I did a certificate and then I did a diploma, then I did another diploma, then I did my clinical placement and I volunteered in various charities.
所有这些都是在伦敦政治经济学院做一对一辅导的同时完成的。
And I did all that whilst doing one to one at LSE.
前后大概花了六年时间做完这些。
So over about six years, I did that.
哇，这个过程可真是漫长啊，对吧？
Well, that's a that's a long process, isn't it?
这真是...相当不容易。
That's a that's a lot.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以明确一下，你最初去西班牙教英语是因为你父亲是西班牙人，对吧？
So just to be clear, right, so you started you started teaching English in Spain because you are like, your dad is Spanish.
他让你说西班牙语。
He let you speak Spanish.
你在西班牙生活了很长时间。
You lived in Spain for a long time.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你在西班牙教了相当长时间的英语，然后来到伦敦，最终像我一样在伦敦经济学院找到了一份工作。
So you spent sort of, like, quite a long time teaching English in Spain, then came to London, and and eventually found you you found a a job, at the London School like me.
但在教了多年英语后，你决定转行成为一名心理咨询师，从事咨询和治疗工作。
But then after quite a few years of teaching English, you decided, yeah, that you would move into being a a counselor, so counseling and therapy.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，你为什么要从英语教学转向心理咨询呢？
So, yeah, why did you make that change then from English teaching to counseling?
我成为英语老师是因为，正如你所说，我父亲是西班牙人，我想住在西班牙。
So I I became an English teacher because, as you said, my dad's Spanish, I wanted to live in Spain.
我想，好吧，我需要在那里谋生。
I thought, okay, I need to earn a living whilst I'm out there.
我非常享受这份工作，但我知道我不想永远做这个。
I really enjoyed it, but I knew that I didn't want to do it forever.
所以我特意来到伦敦学习，并弄清楚自己想做什么。
So I came to London specifically to study and to find out what I wanted to do.
在我做这些的同时，我也需要谋生。
And whilst I was doing that, I also needed to earn a living.
这就是我在学校工作的原因。
So that's why I worked in the school.
我想我是在寻求更多的满足感。
And I guess I was looking for more fulfilment.
我觉得不太有成就感。
I didn't feel very fulfilled.
我喜欢这份工作的某些部分。
I loved parts of the job.
我特别喜欢工作中与人相识、给予支持以及提供咨询建议的这些部分，这些正是我真正享受的。
I loved the getting to know people and the supporting them and the counseling type bits of the job are the bits that I really enjoyed.
但我渴望更有成就感的事情。
But I wanted something more fulfilling.
因为你当时是一对一教学。
Because you were teaching one to one.
是的。
Yeah.
你主要是进行一对一教学。
You you were teaching one to one mainly.
因为我当时是混合教学。
Because I I did a mix.
我教了很多团体课程，不过也有些老师主要教一对一。
I was doing a lot of group courses and but there were some teachers who sort of did mostly one to one.
所以你主要是进行一对一教学，就是在这类课程中单独辅导一个人。
So you're doing mostly one to one, so that's sitting down with one person, in these sessions.
这和咨询工作很相似吗？
Does it Is it quite similar to counseling?
是的。
Yeah.
可以这么说。
It can be.
对。
Yeah.
非常相似。
Very much so.
你知道，会遇到那种紧张的学生，第一天通常都会紧张，你需要建立融洽关系、赢得信任，了解他们并找出如何帮助他们，在他们的学习旅程中协作支持他们。
You know, you've got the kind of the nervous, you know, people are often nervous on day one and you've got to build rapport and build trust and kind of get to know them and work out how to help them and collaborate and support them on their learning journey.
所以有很多交叉点，就像你说的，主要是进行一对一教学，有时我会连续几周或几个月一对一教学，这样就能深入了解这个人。
So there are lots of crossovers and as you said, did mainly one to one and sometimes I would teach one to one for weeks or months so you get to know the person very well.
是的，我认为咨询和教学在很大程度上是相通的。
And yeah, it's very much about, I think counseling and teaching.
你希望能营造一个安全的环境，让他们能够学习、信任你，并且茁壮成长。
You kind of want to create a safe environment so that they can learn and trust you and, yeah, thrive, I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
有时候在一对一教学或英语教学中，你会发现你不仅在教学生英语，还在帮助他们提升学习动力或改善自我认知。
And sometimes with teaching one to one or teaching English in general, you find that with your students, you're not just teaching them English, but you're also kind of helping them, with their motivation or helping them with the way they feel about themselves.
这其实是非常个人化的过程，其中还包含着一定程度的——该怎么说呢——引导和辅导，包括心理层面的支持。
It's like a very personal thing, and there is a certain amount of kind of, what's the word for it, guidance and coaching with them them the mental side of it as well, I suppose.
是的。
Yeah.
极大程度地建立自信，探索他们面临的问题，并针对他们真正想提升的方面进行练习和改进。
Massively confidence building and kind of exploring what issues they have and kind of practicing, working on whatever they want to work on really.
我想心理咨询也是如此，来访者常常一开始并不清楚自己想解决什么问题，这很正常。
I suppose with counselling, it's the same, they come in often, sometimes people come in and they don't know what they want to work on and that's fine.
也有些时候人们目标非常明确。但心理咨询同样强调提供一个安全的探索空间，并建立这种信任关系。
Other times people are very specific, but with counselling, again, it's very much about having that safe space where people can explore and creating that trusting relationship.
没有这种信任和默契，工作实际上就无法开展。
Without that, you can't do the work really without that trust and without that rapport.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以这似乎是你喜欢的方向，或者说你逐渐倾向的领域。
So that seemed to be the thing that you were enjoying or the thing that you kind of moved towards.
那就跟我聊聊心理咨询吧。
So just tell me about counseling.
比如，心理咨询到底是什么？
Like, what what is counseling?
它具体是怎样的形式？
What does it look like?
你们具体做些什么？
What do you do?
这是个很好的问题。
So that's that's a good question.
正如我所说，咨询本质上是一个安全、保密的空间，你可以在这里与受过倾听训练、擅长解析你现状的专业人士探讨任何你想探讨的事情。
So it's it's essentially, as I said, a safe space, a confidential space where you can explore whatever you want with someone who's trained to listen and trained to unpack what's going on for you.
简而言之，咨询就是这样一个场所：你可以探索想法、感受和经历，被他人见证，与某人共同成长。我最近对神经科学产生了浓厚兴趣——本质上，咨询就是创造安全环境，让你以更健康的方式重塑大脑连接，学习安全、信任、情绪调节、信息处理和人际联结，从而为未来实现真正的自我改变。
Essentially, that's what it is, a place to explore thoughts and feelings and experiences to be witnessed, to work alongside somebody trying to, I've got very interested in neuroscience recently and essentially counseling's about creating a safe place where you can rewire the brain in healthier ways, where you can learn about safety and trust and regulation and processing and connection so that you can, you know, make real changes for yourself going forward.
这就是所谓的谈话疗法，对吧？
Is it it's it's talking therapy, right?
人们通常都这么描述它。
That's how it's often described.
是这样吗？
Is that is that right?
嗯。
Yeah.
所以你的角色是倾听来访者。
So so so you're you're there to listen to the person.
我的意思是，你在鼓励他们谈论那些困扰他们的事情。
I mean I mean so you're kind of encouraging them to talk about things that are bothering them.
在倾诉的过程中，这本身就具有某种疗愈效果。
And in the process of talking about it, that's a sort of therapeutic thing.
对吧？
Right?
我确信这其中远不止如此简单。
I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that.
但这就像是最基础的定义。
But that's just like a basic definition.
是的。
Yeah.
另外我想说，有些人可能还没准备好开口，这完全没问题。
And can I just say as well that some people don't feel ready to talk, and that's fine?
有时沉默也有其意义，有时人们想通过绘画来表达，然后从中会自然浮现出一些东西。
Sometimes silence has its place, sometimes people want to draw and then something will come up from that.
确实，所以我们常说：说出来才能驯服它。
But yeah, so we say, name it to tame it.
通过谈论某件事，实际上为你的感受命名，确实能安抚大脑的警报系统——杏仁核，这让情绪显得不那么难以承受。
So by talking about something, by actually putting a name to your feelings, can actually calm that alarm system of the brain, the amygdala, which makes feelings seem much less overwhelming.
它确实能帮助处理、整理思绪和情绪，有助于情绪调节，减轻痛苦，还能带来许多清晰感。我相信你也知道，当你向他人倾诉自己的处境时，有时说出来会让一切明朗许多。
And it can really help process, help organise thoughts and feelings, it can help regulation, it can help reduce distress, And it can really bring about a lot of clarity, as I'm sure you know, when you talk to somebody about what's going on for you, sometimes it can feel a whole lot clearer getting it out.
尤其是当对方充满同理心、善于倾听，并愿意与你共同探讨时——把想法从脑海中释放到现实空间，让你能从不同角度审视它。
And especially if somebody is validating and a good listener and is up for just exploring it with you, to get it out of your head and to kind of get it in the room and you can kind of examine it and different look perspectives.
是的，同情心在我的工作中也非常重要。因为在充满同情心的陪伴下，人们内心那些严苛的自我批判和羞耻感会真正减轻。
And yeah, compassion is very important with what I do as well because if you're in the compassionate presence of somebody, then it can really reduce that really harsh self critical voice that some people have and that shame.
我认为我们都背负着许多羞耻感。而当你坦承那些深感羞耻或痛苦的事，有人只是怀着同理心倾听，就能真正帮助你消化这些情绪，减少羞耻感。
I think we all carry around a lot of shame and it can really help self acceptance by saying stuff that you're really ashamed of or really distressed by and have somebody just listen compassionately can really help you process that and feel less shame about it.
人们通常会谈论哪些事情？
What sort of things do people talk about?
来找你的人通常面临什么问题？
What are the problems that people have when they come to you?
我是说，你知道的，问题的大小各不相同。
I mean, you know, there's different different sort of sizes of problem, I guess.
有些人可能确实有需要处理的重大问题。
Some people probably have really major issues that they need to deal with.
但话说回来，心理咨询是面向所有人的。
But then, you know, counseling is for everyone.
对吧？
Right?
那么，人们通常会和你聊哪些类型的问题呢？
So, what are the sort of typical things that people will talk to you about?
人们经常谈论关系问题。
So people often talk about relationship stuff.
简单来说，我认为这关乎我们与自我的关系——我们如何看待自己，比如之前提到的自我批判、缺乏自信、消极思维等问题，或者...以及...
It's either, simply put, I suppose it's about the relationship with ourselves, how we feel about ourselves, maybe like we were saying before, critical inner voice, lack of confidence, negative thinking, or, and, or, and.
所以这些问题经常是相互交织的。
So often it's overlapping problems.
大多数情况下这些问题都是相互关联的。
Most of the time it's overlapping problems.
与他人的关系。
Relationship with others.
比如恋爱关系、朋友关系、家庭成员之间的关系。
So relationships, romantic relationships, relationships with friends, with family members.
人们来找我是因为他们感到抑郁或焦虑，可能正在经历丧亲之痛，可能遇到工作问题，可能在成长过程中遭受过创伤，或有过非常不快乐或痛苦的家庭生活，童年创伤。
People come to see me because they're feeling depressed or anxious about things, maybe they're grieving, maybe they're experiencing work problems, maybe they've experienced trauma growing up or very unhappy or distressing family life, trauma as a child.
可能是应对日常生活的问题，可能患有自闭症或多动症，可能被诊断出某种人格障碍。
Maybe it's a problem coping with everyday life, maybe they have autism or ADHD, maybe they've been diagnosed with a personality disorder or some sort.
所以问题类型多种多样，但通常都是相互交织的。
So it can be lots of different types of things, but often they're all overlapping.
对。
Right.
哇。
So Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
处理这些一定很不容易吧。
Must be difficult to, sort of deal with that.
我是说，虽然你受过专业训练，但我想这对你来说肯定相当有压力。
I mean, I mean, you're trained, but, that must be that must be quite overwhelming for you, I would imagine.
当有人进来，你正在梳理他们面临的所有问题时。
Someone's coming in and you're kind of unpacking all of the issues they're dealing with.
我会觉得这份责任让我感到相当不堪重负。
I would feel like I'm pretty sort of overwhelmed by the responsibility.
我。
Me.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我必须记住，我无法解决所有问题。
Well, I I have to remember that, I can't fix it.
心理咨询并不能解决问题。
Counselling doesn't fix it.
关键是要创造合适的条件，让他们能够探索并帮助自己，我想。
It's just about creating the right conditions to be able to explore and help the person, help themselves, I guess.
你知道，帮助他们找到
You know, help to find
去应对它。
To deal with it.
并帮助他们理解。
And help them understand.
是的。
Yeah.
帮助他们认清自己面对的问题，这能让他们继续前行。
To help them get a sense of what it is they're dealing with, which will help them to carry on.
因为我想如果你不和任何人倾诉，这些问题不断累积，你就会完全失去判断力，最终可能陷入恶性循环，导致非常有害的行为。
Because I suppose if you don't talk to anyone and these problems build up and up and you lose all perspective of them, then, yeah, you can end up in a very vicious cycle where that become that leads to very damaging behavior.
但和别人交谈确实能帮你获得新的视角，找到应对的方法。
But talking to someone else, yeah, can help you get perspective and and help you find ways to deal with it.
但你并不一定要去解决问题。
But, you're not necessarily there to fix things.
不。
No.
而且我也解决不了问题。
And I can't I can't fix things.
明白吗？
You know?
我可以在那里陪伴吗？
I can I can be there?
我可以提供支持。
I can support.
我可以探索，可以保持好奇，可以关心，可以在意。
I can explore, I can be curious, I can be interested, I can care.
所以我能创造所有这些条件，我们共同创造这些条件。
So I can create all these conditions and together we create all these conditions.
所以不仅仅是我，而是我和我的客户共同面对。
So it's not just me, it's me and my client.
而自我觉察就是一切。
And self awareness is everything.
一旦你能更好地理解某件事，就像你说的，你就知道自己在应对什么，突然间，也许你会感到更有能力说：好吧，这就是我要处理的情况。
Once you can understand something better, like you say, then you know what you're dealing with, then all of a sudden, maybe you can feel a bit more empowered to say, okay, this is what I'm dealing with.
这些是我的选择。
These are my options.
我想对此采取什么行动？
What do I wanna do about it?
你知道吗？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一个非常重要的角色。
It's a very important role.
对吧？
Right?
所以，你知道，为什么咨询师的存在如此重要？
So, you know, why do why is it important for counselors to exist?
你知道吗？
You know?
还有，为什么人们生活中需要咨询师？
And and why do people need counselors in their lives?
你知道吗？
You know?
为什么人们生活中需要咨询师？
Why do people need counselors in their lives?
我的意思是，我想说的是，为什么人们难以在自己的个人生活中做同样的事或处理同样的问题？
I mean, I suppose what I mean is, why why is it hard for people not for people to do the same thing or deal with the same thing in their own personal lives?
你的角色是为他们提供一些他们可能在其他人那里无法获得的东西。
That that, your role is to provide them with something that perhaps they don't have their in their other yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你是说为什么我们不能只和朋友交谈，还是说你的意思是这个？
You mean why why can't we just speak to friends or is that what you mean?
嗯，
Well,
我想知道，以前人们会向谁倾诉？
I guess you know, before, who did people speak to before?
他们的牧师、教区牧师，或者老师、朋友之类的。
Their priest, their vicar, I don't know, their teacher, their friends.
这些人仍然可以给予极大的支持，有些人觉得这就足够了。
So these people can still be incredibly supportive and some people find that that's enough.
如果你有善于倾听且非常支持你的好朋友，对某些人来说可能就足够了。
If you have very good friends who are good at listening and really supportive, then that's maybe enough for some people.
但咨询师是经过专业训练的，他们公正无私，完全专注于你，没有任何其他目的。
But of course counsellors are trained and they're impartial and they focus entirely on you, there's no agenda.
即使是最好心的朋友，有时也可能会表现得有些敷衍。
With friends, even the loveliest friends, sometimes they can be a bit dismissive.
别傻了，你没必要为那件事担心。
Don't be silly, you don't have to worry about that.
或者他们会说，哦，我完全懂你的意思，我也遇到过这个问题。
Or they can say, oh, I know exactly what you mean, I had that problem.
然后他们就开始谈论自己，你明白吗？
And then they start talking about themselves, you know?
所以你明白我的意思了吗？
So you see what I mean?
然后它
And then it
夺走了
takes away
然后它就从你这里夺走了。
and then it takes away from you.
是啊。
Yeah.
即使是你最亲密的朋友，以及你深爱且关系亲密的家人，你们之间仍存在某种互动关系，这种关系可能并不适合倾诉你所有的烦恼。
Even your closest friends and, you know, people in your family that you love and you're very close to, there's still a kind of dynamic there, you know, in your relationship, which is perhaps not the appropriate space for unloading all of your all of your issues.
而且，也许你想找一个公正的人倾诉，这样你就能为朋友和家人变得更坚强，而不是让他们承担倾听你诉说的责任。
And also, maybe you wanna be able to talk to someone impartial so that you can then be a stronger person for your friends and and family so you're not sort of burdening them with the responsibility of of, you know, listening to you and all that stuff.
有时候我们就是没时间。
Sometimes we just don't have time.
你懂吗？
You know?
在友谊和家庭的常规节奏中，很难找到那样的倾诉空间。
There's no there's no way of breaking the normal kind of rhythms of friendship and family, you know, to to to find a space for that.
通常，如果你向母亲、妻子或最好的朋友倾诉，正如你所说，你们情感上过于亲近，难以保持客观。而因为我是局外人，不认识他们，与情境无关，反而能在某些方面看得更清楚。
And often, if you speak to your mom or your wife or your best friend or whatever, the relationship, like you say, you're too kind of emotionally close to be able to be objective, whereas because I'm separate, I don't know them and I'm separate from the situation, I can kind of see things more clearly in some ways.
当然，有时我也会误解，我们会一起探讨这个问题，但我是公正的。
And of course sometimes I get it wrong and we kind of explore that, but I'm impartial.
我接受过大量训练来处理自己的问题，这让我能更好地觉察自身状况。
And I've done a lot of training to work on my stuff, which hopefully means that I'm kind of aware of my stuff.
所以我让自己保持抽离，能够保持这种客观距离。
So I keep myself out of the room and I'm able to have that separation.
我也能觉察到咨询过程中自身可能浮现的问题，这其实也很有帮助。
I'm aware of stuff coming up for me possibly in the room, which can be really useful as well.
我认为正是这种公正性和空间感——你在为对方创造这个空间，让他们能够理清头绪。
So I think just the fact that there is that impartiality and that that space, I guess, you're you're creating that space for somebody so that they can they can figure stuff out.
而我就在这段旅程中与他们同行。
And I'm on that journey with them.
如今谈论心理健康之类的话题比过去更容易被接受了，对吧？
These days, it's, it's like a lot more acceptable to talk about your mental health and stuff like that than it used to be, isn't it?
但人们也在讨论心理健康危机的问题。
But people talk about a mental health crisis as well.
在英国确实如此，可能很多地方情况也一样。
Certainly in The UK, probably it's the same in lots of places.
我们总在讨论心理健康危机。
We talk about a mental health crisis.
你觉得问题出在哪里？
What's going on there, do you think?
为什么你认为人们普遍面临心理健康问题？
Why do you think there's a people are struggling with mental health?
还是说只是因为我们现在讨论得更多，所以比过去人们隐藏问题时更意识到这个现象？
Or is it that we just talk about it more so we're more aware of it now than we were before when people used to hide it?
你怎么看？
What what do you think?
我觉得两方面因素都有。
I think a bit of both, really.
我认为是压力源增多而支持系统减弱。
I think there are more stressors and less support.
我认为疫情给人们，尤其是年轻人留下了巨大的心理健康阴影。要知道，我们四十多岁的人还好，但那些疫情期间正值二十来岁或十几岁的年轻人，那段日子对他们来说一定非常艰难。
I think the pandemic left a huge mental health footprint on people, especially young people, because you know, we're in our 40s, but people in their 20s who were in their teens during the pandemic, that must have been very difficult for them.
所以我认为，那种心理创伤对人们产生了持久的影响。
So I think that that left, that trauma has had a lasting effect on people.
而且说实话，人们确实在挣扎。看看新闻就知道，这个世界现在有点乱，不是吗？
And people are struggling, let's face it, the world's you know, watch the news, the world's in a bit of a mess, isn't it?
找到稳定工作很难，还有生活成本危机。
Difficult to get a stable job, there's the cost of living crisis.
是啊。
Yeah.
支持体系可能不如从前强大了。
Support systems maybe aren't as strong as they once were.
社区凝聚力也许不如从前了。
Communities maybe aren't as strong as they once were.
英国国民保健体系也举步维艰。
The NHS is struggling.
很多事情正在发生。
Lots of stuff going on.
是啊。
Yeah.
那么，我的意思是，一个人怎么知道自己是否应该去咨询或接受治疗呢？
So how does I mean, how will someone know if they should probably go to counseling or therapy?
我是说，你觉得有哪些迹象是人们应该留意或注意到的？
I mean, how what are the signs that someone should listen to or notice, do you think?
对。
Yeah.
其实每个人都能从中受益。
So everyone can benefit.
你绝对不必等到危机出现才去。
You definitely don't need to be in crisis.
越早寻求帮助越好。
The sooner you seek help the better.
但一些迹象可能是，你知道的，感到压力大、不堪重负、有自杀念头、想伤害自己、退缩。
But some signs could be you know, feeling stressed, feeling overwhelmed, having suicidal thoughts, thinking of harming yourself, withdrawing.
退缩？
Withdrawing?
是的，远离人群，当人们抑郁时，非常抑郁或有自杀倾向时，他们通常会退缩，把自己封闭起来，你知道，更难向外求助。
Yeah, withdrawing from people, you know, when people are depressed, people get very depressed or suicidal, they often withdraw, you know, they go into themselves, they don't, you know, it's more difficult to reach out.
所以当你发现自己这样做时，重要的是要反其道而行。
So when you feel yourself doing that, it's very important to do the opposite of what you feel.
你感觉想退缩、只想待在家里不与人交谈时，恰恰需要主动联系他人——打电话给某人、寻求专业支持、与朋友交谈，或是解决睡眠问题、感到生活完全失控时。
You feel like withdrawing and just staying at home and not talking to people, it's very important to do the opposite to reach out, phone someone, seek professional support, talk to a friend, problems sleeping, feeling completely overwhelmed with life.
这些都是来找我这样的人谈谈的好理由。
So those are some good reasons to speak to somebody like me.
但就像我说的，每个人都能受益，不必等到危机出现才行动。
But as I said, everyone can benefit and you don't have to wait until you're in a crisis.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
你觉得除了寻求专业帮助外，还有什么方法可以照顾好自己的心理健康呢？
What do you think are ways to kind of look after your mental health, you know, as well as going and seeking help?
你认为在日常生活中，还有哪些关键因素能帮助人们保持心理健康？
What are some of the other kind of crucial things do you think that can help someone stay mentally healthy in their day to day life?
我认为是睡眠。
I think sleep.
可能我们讨论得不够多，但获得充足优质的睡眠真的非常重要。
Maybe we don't talk about it enough, but sleep is really, really important to get good quality sleep to sleep enough.
这是一切的基础。
It underpins everything else.
我们在睡眠中会处理很多心理创伤。
We process a lot of trauma during sleep.
我们的大脑在睡眠中有机会处理和整理信息。
Our brains have a chance to process and organize stuff during sleep.
所以这非常重要。
So that's really important.
睡眠不足与更高的心理健康问题风险相关，包括焦虑、压力大和抗压能力下降。
And poor sleep is linked to higher risk of mental health problems, higher risk of anxiety, stress, low resilience.
因此睡眠是重中之重。
So sleep's a big one.
我尽量保证八小时睡眠，虽然不总能做到，但会努力。
So I try and get about eight hours, don't always manage it but I try.
当然还有社交联系——这正是我们讨论的核心，与人交谈，感受朋友家人的支持，在生活中建立支持性关系。
Connection, of course, what we're talking about really, talking to people, feeling connected and supported by friends, by family, having supportive relationships in our life.
运动也非常重要。
Exercise, very important.
它能提升调节情绪的化学物质水平，比如血清素、多巴胺等有益成分。
It boosts those mood regulating chemicals, serotonin and dopamine and all that good stuff.
这是一个
That's a
多美好的感觉啊，我就喜欢体内充满血清素的感觉。
lovely bit of, I love a bit of serotonin in me.
所以这真的非常非常重要。
So that's really, really important.
我从来都不想去健身房，但每次锻炼完出来，感觉总是很棒。
I never feel like going to the gym, but after coming out of the gym, I always feel great.
当然，有些人讨厌运动，可能有些人讨厌健身房，这没关系，但试着去散散步或找到适合你的方式，找到你喜欢的运动。
And of course, some people hate exercise, maybe some people hate the gym and that's fine, but try and go for a walk or find what works for you, find something that you enjoy.
而且据说，运动量也不一定要很大。
And apparently, doesn't have to be a huge step either.
你知道，有时候只是在街区走走，或者出去散步半小时，就能带来巨大的改变。
You know, sometimes just walking around the block or just going out for a half an hour walk can make a huge difference.
是啊。
Yeah.
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因为
Because
你既能锻炼身体，又能晒到太阳，这其实非常重要。
you you get some exercise, but also getting some sunlight is actually really important.
是的。
Yes.
阳光和绿色空间能调节我们的昼夜节律。
Sunlight and green spaces, they can regulate our circadian rhythms.
这对调节我们的睡意和警觉性非常重要，同时也能调节情绪。
Very important for regulating when we feel sleepy or when we feel alert and regulates mood as well.
所以接触大自然真的非常重要。
So getting out in nature, really important.
就像你说的阳光，确实很重要。
Like you say sunlight, really important.
而且就像我说的，不一定非要去健身房锻炼。
And it doesn't have to be, as I said, it doesn't have to be a kind of gym session.
就像你说的，可以只是在绿地散个步，做做拉伸，或者随便活动一下身体。
Like you say, it can just be a gentle walk in a green space, it can be stretching, it can be just movement of some sort.
这真的很重要。
It's really important.
当然还有乐趣，享受乐趣、休息和设定界限也很重要，明白吗？
And of course fun, it's important to have fun and to rest and have boundaries, you know?
你明白我说的界限是什么意思吗？
Do you know what I mean by boundaries?
嗯，是的，我明白。
Well, yeah, I do.
对。
Yeah.
不过你是指个人生活中的那种界限吗？
But I mean, you mean boundaries in in sort of in your personal life?
呃，我不太确定自己是否完全理解。
Well, I'm not sure I know exactly.
你具体指的是什么？
What do you mean by that?
所以作为治疗师，我们经常讨论界限问题。
So so therapists, we talk about boundaries a lot.
基本上，我们讨论的是，你知道的，就是限度。
So basically, we're talking about, you know, limits.
要知道，我们无法为所有人付出，无法做所有事，不可能全天候工作。
You know, we can't be there for everybody, we can't do everything, we can't work all the hours under the Sun.
我们需要设定界限来照顾好自己。
We need to have boundaries in order to look after ourselves.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你知道吗，可以这样想——虽然不确定这个比喻是否恰当——想象一个花园，周围有围栏，那就是你的界限。
You know, think of it like, I don't know if this is a good analogy, but think of it like a garden and you've got your fence around your garden, you know, that's your boundary.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以这个...抱歉。
So this then Sorry.
继续说吧。
Go on.
我正想说，花园里的一切都是你的责任，杂草、草地、花朵等等，都需要你照料，那都是你的分内之事。
And I was just gonna say everything in your garden is your responsibility, you know, all the weeds and the grass and the flowers and all of that you have to look after and that's your responsibility.
但除此之外的其他事物就不属于你的责任范畴了。
But you know, everything else of that isn't your responsibility.
因此用这个角度思考很有帮助，因为很多来找我咨询的人都苦于界限问题。
So it's good to think of it like that because I have a lot of people coming to see me and they struggle with boundaries.
你刚才提到的关于责任的话题还记得吗？
You know what you were saying about responsibility?
人们觉得他们必须对所有人负责。
People feel that they've got to become they feel responsible for everybody.
他们必须拯救或帮助每个人，却忘了自己。
They've got to save or help everybody, and they forget about themselves.
你知道吗？
You know?
我想这可能——我是说，我不确定，但我猜这种感觉可能很普遍，人们首先会觉得自己对他人有影响。
I think that's probably I mean, I don't know, but I'm guessing that it's probably quite common that people feel this sense of, first of all, having an impact on everyone else.
比如，他们担心如果分享自己的问题，就会把问题转嫁给别人。
Like, they're concerned that they're going to, if they if they share their problems, that they're going to transfer their problems to other people.
他们不想给他人添麻烦。
They don't want to make life difficult for anyone else.
但与此同时，他们又对生活中的每个人，尤其是父母，感到一种责任。
And yet at the same time, they also feel sort of a responsibility for everyone in their lives, especially like parents.
你明白吗？
You know?
尤其是那些有孩子的父母，或者一想到家庭关系，你就会觉得自己对所有人都有责任。
Especially like, you know, parents who've got children or just when you think of family connections, you feel you're responsible for everybody else.
你会感到那种负担感，一种控制欲，想要确保其他人都安好，而这种责任感确实可能相当沉重。
And that you feel that sense of burden, and a sense of kind of control of you want to make sure everyone else is alright, and that that sense of responsibility can really be quite heavy.
所以，也许这就是你所说的意思。
So is that maybe that's what you're talking about.
当你谈论界限时，你是在说这就是你的位置，这就是你要负责的范围。
When you talk about boundaries, you're saying that this is this is where you are this is what you're responsible for.
在某种程度上，超出这个界限的任何事情，你都可以不用那么担心，我想。
And to a certain extent, anything that's beyond this boundary, you know, you can just sort of like not worry about it so much, I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，你知道，关心你爱的人并想要帮助他们是非常人性化的。
Well, you know, it's very human to to care about people you love and to want to be able to help them.
所以我认为，正如你所说，感到那种责任感和负担是很自然的。
And so I think it's really natural to feel that sense of responsibility and that burden, like you say.
但与此同时，我认为思考边界很重要——什么是你的责任？
But at the same time, I think it's important to think about the boundary, what is your responsibility?
你实际能做什么？
What can you realistically do?
你需要保护自己的时间和精力。
You need to protect your time, your energy.
你需要设定个人限制，否则你会精疲力竭，会深受其害。
You need to have personal limitations otherwise you're going to get burnt out, otherwise you're going to suffer.
那样你就无法帮助你所爱的人了。
And then you can't help the people you love.
所以在我工作中，培训时他们教导我们的要点之一就是必须建立非常明确的界限。
So in my job, one of the things they teach us when we do our training is we have to have really strong boundaries.
比如我见某人时，我们每次会面约一小时，如果没有这个界限，可能会延长到一个半小时甚至两小时。
So when I see somebody, we see each other for about an hour, if I didn't have that boundary, that could go on for an hour and a half or two hours.
界限保护着每一个人。
A boundary protects everybody.
当人们清楚界限在哪里时，他们会感到安心。
People know people can feel safe when they know what the boundary is.
是啊。
Yeah.
说到你和你的职业界限，你有没有遇到过客户开始影响你生活其他方面的情况？
And and talking about you and your boundaries in your job, I mean, do you not ever get clients where it sort of starts to affect the rest of your life?
你是否曾在非工作时间仍被客户的问题困扰，或者担心、惦记着他们？
So do you ever find yourself being bothered by, or, I mean, worrying about and thinking about clients and their problems outside of your sort of working day?
有的。
Yes.
有时候会。
Sometimes.
但这就是培训和设定界限的意义所在。
But, again, that's where the training comes in and the boundaries.
我也是凡人，我关心所有客户，并且非常了解他们。
I'm human and I care for all my clients and I know them really well.
是的，我会经常想到他们并为之担忧。
So yeah, I can think about them and often do and worry about them.
但归根结底，我们的工作仅限于治疗时段，我无法在治疗时间之外帮助他们。
But at the end of the day, know that our work is done in the therapeutic hour and I can't help them outside of that hour.
希望那段时间能赋予他们所需的技能和应对机制，正如我所说，让他们有力量自助。
Hopefully that hour provides them with the skills and the coping mechanisms they need so that they can, as I said, feel empowered to help themselves.
当人们其实需要自助时，强行帮助反而会削弱他们的能力。
It's quite disempowering trying to help people when actually they need to help themselves.
也许他们并不想被拯救。
Maybe they don't want to be saved.
通常人们都希望自助，但也有人确实渴望被拯救，这因人而异。
Often people want to help themselves or some people do want to be saved, it depends on the person.
我们会探讨那种感受——那是什么感觉？
We would talk about that, what does that feel like?
这种想法从何而来？
Where does that come from?
那种感觉，真是令人着迷。
That feeling That's fascinating.
是啊。
Yeah.
不过确实很迷人，不是吗？
It is fascinating though, isn't it?
天啊，我们真是复杂的生物，对吧？
God, we're such complicated creatures, aren't we?
没错。
Yeah.
我一直觉得人和行为以及我们的动机非常迷人。
I've always found it fascinating, you know, people and behaviors and our motivations.
所以我一直对此感兴趣，我想这就是我选择这个职业的原因。
And so I've always been interested, which is I guess why I chose this profession.
它之所以迷人，是因为它是无穷无尽的。
It is fascinating because it's it's endless.
对。
Right.
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，你注意到人们身上最常见的一些特点是什么？
I mean, what are some of the most common things that you notice in people?
比如，那些困扰我们头脑的事情？
Like, are the things that mess with our heads?
你发现往往是同类型的事情吗？
Do you find it's often the same kind of thing?
是的。
Yeah.
在某些方面我们都很相似。
We're all very similar in some ways.
所以焦虑和抑郁非常普遍。
So anxiety and depression are very common.
我们很多人内心都有一个非常苛刻的声音。
A lot of us, we can have a very critical inner voice.
我们往往对别人比对自己要友善得多。
We're often a lot kinder to other people than we are ourselves.
我们常常对自己要求很高，而对所爱之人却宽容许多。
We often have very high standards for ourselves, we're a lot kinder to our loved ones.
所以我有时会对人们说，你对自己说话的方式，你会这样对你最好的朋友说话吗？
So I say to people sometimes, the way you talk to yourself, would you speak to your best friend like that?
或者你会那样对待他们吗？
Or would you treat them like that?
你会对他们有那样的标准吗？
Would you have those standards for them?
他们会说不会。
And they say no.
那我就问，那为什么你对自己那样说话就可以呢？
And I say, so why is it okay for you to speak to yourself like that?
所以这是个常见现象。
So that's a common one.
还有我们提到的边界感，那种对所有人负责的感觉，那种想要纠正或拯救他人的需求，有时会让人精疲力竭。
And boundaries, as we said, and that sense of responsibility for everybody, that kind of that need to fix people or save people, which can sometimes mean that people really deplete themselves.
是的，这是个重要问题——讨好型人格。
Yeah, that's a big one, people pleasing.
那是什么？
What's that?
我
I
我认为我们很多人从小就被教育要有礼貌，要说'好的，请'。
think many people of us, many of us have been brought up to be polite and to say, Yes, please.
基本上就是不要为难别人，要取悦他人。
And to not be difficult and to please other people basically.
这常常会引发很多问题，因为你害怕伤害对方，害怕让他们失望，害怕辜负他们，害怕不被喜欢。
And often it can cause lots of problems because you're afraid of hurting the other person, you're afraid of disappointing them, you're afraid of letting them down, you're afraid of being disliked.
于是你可能会发现自己过着不属于自己的人生，对一切都点头答应，回到家后却懊恼地想：天啊，我为什么要答应那件事？
So you can find yourself living a life that's not yours, saying yes to everything and then going home and thinking, Oh God, why did I say yes to that?
现在我还得去做那件事。
And now I've got to do that.
有些人甚至最终从事了自己不喜欢的职业，仅仅因为二十年前父母告诉他们必须成为这样或那样的人。
Some people even end up in careers that they don't like just because twenty years down the line, their parents told them they had to be this or they had to be that.
你明白我的意思吗？
You see what I mean?
所以我认为，要坦然面对那种让人失望或某种程度上让他人不快的尴尬处境，可能真的很难。
So I think it can be really hard to sit with that discomfort of disappointing people or displeasing people in some way.
因为我们很多人从小就被教育要彬彬有礼。
Because a lot of us have been brought up to be so polite.
是啊。
Yeah.
但这并不是礼貌。
But it's not polite.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
但同时，是的，当你开始竭尽全力让周围每个人都开心，结果自己却因此受苦时，这就变得有害了。
At the same time, yeah, it becomes damaging when you start bending over backwards to try and make everyone else happy around you and you suffer as a result.
这种情况很常见，不是吗？
That's very common, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
我们都会这样。
We all do it.
我也会这样。
I do it.
我确信你也会这样。
I'm sure you do it.
我想这取决于我们这么做的程度。
I guess it's the degree to which we do it.
你知道，有时候可能会相当极端。
You know, sometimes it can be quite extreme.
是的。
Yeah.
所以关键在于你对此的认知程度，对吧？
And and so to the extent that you're aware of it as well, right?
因为你可能意识到了，并想着：好吧，这就是我取悦他人的限度，不会再超过这个程度了。
Because you might be aware of it and you might think, you know, well, this this is the this is the extent to which I'm gonna people please, and then I won't people please any more than that.
但有时候你也不想完全摒弃这一点，因为不想成为一个完全自私的人。
But, you know, you don't wanna cut it out completely sometimes because you don't want to be a completely self interested person.
明白吗？
You know?
关键在于你要把握好平衡。
It's like the fact that you've gotta get the balance right.
意识到这一点可以避免情况恶化到让你因此受苦的地步。
Being aware of it can mean that it doesn't get to a point where, yeah, you're suffering as a result of it.
没错。
Exactly.
所以关键在于觉察。
So it's all about awareness.
在心理咨询中可以讨论这个问题，提高觉察力。
So in the counseling session, can talk about that and become more aware of it.
当你这样做时，为什么这样做？
When you do it, why do you do it?
你是自愿这样做的吗？
Do you want to do it?
你想稍微减少这种行为吗？
Do you want to do it a little bit less?
你觉得这有帮助吗？
You know, is it helpful?
还是说没有帮助？
Is it not helpful?
它对你的生活有什么影响？
How does it affect your life?
你可以探索所有这些方面。
You know, you can explore all of that.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，是的，真的非常有趣。
So, so yes, really, really interesting.
你觉得我们刚才讨论的生活方式、锻炼、睡眠这些话题怎么样？
What do you think about we were talking about our lifestyles, getting exercise, getting sleep, and stuff like that.
这些生活方式相关的事情，我...我的意思是，我并不是专家。
These lifestyle things, I I guess I mean, I I I'm no expert.
我想我只是以一个外行的身份来参与这个话题。
I'm just coming to this as a sort of layperson, I suppose.
很久以前我确实学过心理学，但那和实际从事心理咨询工作相去甚远。
I did an a level in psychology a long time ago, but that's far from, far from the actual practice of doing counseling.
不过我们刚才谈到生活方式问题，我认为这对避免情况恶化很重要。
But, so we talked about lifestyle stuff, and I guess this is important for not exacerbating things.
如果睡眠不足、缺乏阳光和运动，你的心理健康基线水平就会相当糟糕。
That if you if you're not getting enough sleep, if you're not getting enough sunlight and doing exercise, then your general baseline level of mental health is gonna be pretty poor.
这样你会更容易出现严重的焦虑、抑郁等问题。
You're gonna be much more at risk of, you know, having perhaps more severe, anxiety, depression, and things like that.
嗯。
Mhmm.
说到生活方式，手机使用呢？
So talking about lifestyle, what about, what about phones?
你觉得手机会如何影响人们的心理健康？
How do you think phones affect people's mental health?
我认为‘末日刷屏’这种行为，你知道的，可能会带来很大问题。
I think that doom scrolling is, you know, can be very problematic.
而且，没错，手机确实非常容易让人上瘾，对吧？
And, yeah, they're incredibly addictive, aren't they?
我，我觉得它们绝对是我们感到压力或不堪重负时的一种应对机制。
I, I think that they're definitely a coping mechanism for we're feeling stressed or if we're feeling overwhelmed.
比如我发现自己晚上会连续几个小时刷手机阅读，它们实在太实用了，不是吗？
I can find myself in the evening, for example, on my phone for hours reading, they're just so useful as well, aren't they?
手机上什么都有，我认为意识到它如何影响你非常重要。
There's everything on I the think it's really important to be aware of how it's affecting you.
举个例子，有时我拿起手机打开《卫报》应用，开始阅读国际新闻，立刻就会感到焦虑。
And for example, sometimes I can pick up my phone, open my Guardian app, start reading about world events and immediately I can start feeling anxious.
我非常非常清楚那种‘天啊，又发生什么了’的感觉。
I'm really, really aware of that sense of, Oh God, what's happened now?
所以我认为关键是要意识到它对你的影响，并设置一些限制，再次强调边界，对它加以约束。
So I think it's really important to be aware of how it's affecting you and to put some limitations, again boundaries, some limitations on it, know.
你真的想每天花好几个小时在手机上吗？
Do you really want to be on your phone for several hours a day?
我知道我不想。
I know I don't.
我确实允许自己晚上花几个小时，就像我说的，无意识地刷Facebook或看新闻，可能比我应该花的时间还要多。
I do allow myself a few hours in the evening, as I said, to mindlessly scroll on Facebook or read the news probably more than I should.
我没有青少年孩子，所以不太确定，但我的印象是青少年与手机的关系相当有问题，因为手机实在太容易上瘾了。
I don't have a teenager so I'm not really sure about this but my impression is that teenagers have quite you know, a problematic relationship with with phones because it's just they're just so addictive.
所以我认为设定限制很重要。
So I think important to put limits on it.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
对于那些在手机问世后才来到这个世界的年轻人来说，这已经完全成为常态。那些不知道没有这些设备的生活是什么样的人，我很难想象他们如何尝试过一种不联网的生活，或者不时刻以某种方式与手机保持连接的生活。
For for younger people who have come into the world, after phones arrived, you know, where where that's just totally normal, like people who don't know what life is like without these devices, I can imagine how difficult it is to try and live a life without you know, live a life, offline or live your life without constantly being hooked up to a to a phone in some way.
那一定非常困难。
That must be really hard.
我的意思是，在某种程度上，手机相当...该怎么说呢？
I mean, like, in a to an extent, like, phones are quite, what's the word?
用'邪恶'这个词不太准确。
Evil is not the word.
但它们侵入生活的方式非常巧妙，显然是经过精心设计，要时刻保持你的注意力。
But, the way they creep into your life, they're very cleverly designed, obviously, to always maintain your attention at all times.
所以这就是它们的功能所在。
So that that's kind of what they do.
它们某种程度上操纵着我们的注意力，强迫我们始终停留在各种平台上。
They sort of manipulate our attention, force us to always be on whatever platform it is.
而且，这可能对我们并不是很有利。
And, that might not be that might not be very good for us.
但确实，认识到这点并保持警惕很重要。
But yeah, it's important to recognize that and keep it Yeah.
在
In
同样重要的是要思考，它们是否在某些方面帮助了年轻人？
It's also important to recognize or to think about, do they help young people in some ways?
我相信在很多方面确实如此。
And I'm sure in many ways they do.
有些人可能...对我们老一辈来说难以理解，但很多年轻人确实将大部分社交关系都维系在线上。
Some people have, maybe for us old people, it's hard to understand, but I think a lot of young people, they have a lot of all their social connections online.
线上有一个完整的世界让他们保持联系，这或许是他们重要的支持来源。
There's a whole world online that's keeping them connected, which is a great source of support for them perhaps.
所以认识到这点很重要。
So important to recognise that.
既是支持也是快乐，对吧？
Support and joy as well, right?
是的，乐趣和快乐。
Yeah, fun, joy.
对。
Yeah.
是的，所以我觉得人们很容易对手机或社交媒体说三道四。
Yeah, so I think it's easy to bad mouth phones or social media.
我不确定它是否弊大于利，但我认为它对某些人确实非常重要，并为他们提供了很多帮助。
And I think maybe, I'm not sure if it's more negative than positive, but I definitely think that it's very important for some people and offers offers some people a lot.
但如果'界限'是本期节目的关键词，那么我想这也包括与手机之间的界限，因为确实如此。
But if boundaries is the key word for this episode, then I guess it's it is about boundaries with the phone as well because Yeah.
我刚才读到哪了？
Where was I reading?
我可能正在刷手机，讽刺的是，我读到了这个。
I was probably scrolling on my phone, and I read this ironically enough.
但我读到过，某些使用手机的习惯比其他习惯更糟糕。
But I read the things like certain habits with your phone are worse than others.
显然，我们不应该做的一件事是早上醒来第一件事就是看手机，而这恰恰是每个人都会做的，我觉得这很可悲，我们经常一醒来就伸手去拿手机盯着屏幕。
And one of the things that we apparently shouldn't do is when we wake up in the morning, the first thing is to look at your phone, which is what, of course, everybody does, which is quite sad, I think, that that often the first thing we do is, you know, just reach for our phones and start looking at the screen.
显然这对你非常不好，因为如果谈到昼夜节律，暴露在手机光线中并不是开启一天的最佳方式，你应该避免使用手机。
Apparently, this is really bad for you because if you talked about circadian rhythms, that being exposed to the light from the phone is not the best way to start the day, that you should avoid the phone.
先吃饭、喝水，好好吃顿早餐，试着让阳光照在脸上，然后再看手机。
Eat, drink water, have a decent breakfast and try and get the sun on your face before you you you go into your phone.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，我自己也有这个毛病。
And, you know, I'm guilty of it myself.
你知道吗？
You know?
嗯。
Yeah.
我我清楚醒来时应该做什么。
I I know that when I wake up, I know what I should do.
我知道我应该做拉伸运动。
I know that I should stretch.
我应该听听鸟鸣声。
I should listen to birdsong.
我应该——我也说不清——去感知自己身体的状态，但手机闹钟一响，我就会拿起手机，为了防止自己再睡着，就开始看些东西。
I should, I don't know, be aware of what's coming up for me and my body, but my alarm goes off, which is on my phone, I pick up my phone, and then to stop myself from falling back to sleep, I start reading something.
是啊，它们实在太方便了，不是吗？
Yeah, they're just incredibly convenient, aren't they?
既超级方便又让人上瘾。
Incredibly convenient and addictive.
所以关键在于找到更健康的生活方式，我觉得应该尝试培养更健康的习惯。
So it's about finding healthier, I suppose healthier habits and experimenting.
不要害怕尝试不同的方法。
Don't be afraid to experiment with different things.
就像我有个朋友最近尝试了整个周末不用任何科技产品，整整两天都没碰手机。
Like a friend of mine recently, she had a whole weekend where she didn't use any technology, no phone all weekend.
而且，你知道，她说那感觉棒极了。
And, you know, she said it was wonderful.
所以我觉得，尝试这些事情很好，这样我们就能比较一下，那种感觉是什么样的？
So I think, you know, it's good to try these things so that we can compare, you know, what does that feel like?
其实我很喜欢这样。
I love it actually.
我的意思是，对我来说很难不一直看手机，因为显然我的很多工作都是在线上完成的。
I mean, it's really hard for me not to be on my phone all the time because obviously a lot of my work is online stuff.
所以我会
So I'll
嗯哼。
just Uh-huh.
晚上，等孩子们终于睡着后，我会立刻打开笔记本电脑做点什么。
In the evening, once the kids are finally asleep, I'll get I'll just instantly go to my laptop and do something.
但我真的在努力，你知道，就是读读书或者做些其他不碰电子设备的事情。
But, I'm really trying to, you know, just, like, read books or just do something else where I'm not on my device.
这样确实感觉好多了。
And it's it is much nicer.
当我这么做时，确实感觉更好了。
I do feel better when I do that.
你觉得我们的注意力持续时间是否受到了手机的影响？
Do you think that our attention spans have been affected by the phones?
因为我觉得我的注意力肯定受到了影响。
Because I think mine has definitely.
比如，现在很难静下心来读一本书，因为手机能带来即时满足感，对吧？
It's hard to hard to sit down and get into a book, for example, because, you know, you get the instant gratification from the phone, don't you?
是啊。
Yeah.
对我来说，静心阅读几乎成了一种挑战，因为手会不由自主地去拿手机。
It's it's it's like a challenge for me to just sit and just read without it's almost automatic.
就像我在播客里说过的那样，你会想‘我就查一下明天的天气’，这看似是件合理的事，毕竟要为第二天做准备。
Your arm goes down to your phone, and you're looking at and I've talked about this on the podcast before where you think, oh, I'm just gonna check the weather for tomorrow, which is like a a good thing to check, you know, as you're planning for the next day.
我就查个天气而已。
I'll just check the weather.
结果一打开手机，哦，这个应用有通知。
And you go in your phone, oh, there's a notification from this thing.
你点开通知，就进入了那个社交媒体平台，开始刷个不停，完全沉浸其中。
And then you look at the notification, and then you're into that particular social media platform, and then you're scrolling through, and then you're on one thing.
然后你就掉进了兔子洞（指陷入信息漩涡）。
And then you're in a rabbit hole.
接着你会想，天啊，我得把手机放一边了。
And then you go, oh, I've gotta put my phone away, for goodness sake.
你能合上手机收起来吗？
Can you put it you close it and put it away?
然后你又觉得，哎呀，我忘了查天气。
And then you're like, oh, but I forgot to check the weather.
于是你又打开手机，结果又开始了另一段‘旅程’，你懂的，又跑到别的地方去了。
Then you go back in again, and then you're off again on some other trip, you know, somewhere else.
我经常遇到这种情况。
That happens to me all the time.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得这是手机带来的普遍现象。
I think that's a very common thing with phones.
确实。
It's yeah.
这挺有意思的。
It's a it's a funny thing.
不过，设定界限之类的措施还是有必要的。
But, yeah, setting boundaries and stuff.
比如我和我妻子，我们曾经历过一段决定卧室不放手机的日子。
Like, my my wife and I, we went through a period where we decided no phones in the bedroom.
那感觉挺好的。
That was good.
那是个好决定。
That was a good thing.
我们在客厅专门设了个架子放手机，还买了老式闹钟。
We had a a specific shelf in the living room where we would put our phones, and we had we bought old fashioned alarm clocks.
我说的老式闹钟不是那种上发条的TikTok同款，就是普通的电子闹钟。
And when I say old fashioned alarm clocks, I don't mean wind up TikTok TikTok ones, but just, you know, like digital alarm clocks.
现在这些电子闹钟也算老式了。
Those are old fashioned alarm clocks now.
那段日子确实不错。
And that was that was good.
那段时间挺好的。
That was a good time.
我们应该重新开始这么做。
We should go back to doing that.
你们为什么停下来了？
Why did you stop?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我觉得手机不知不觉又溜回来了。
I think the phones crept their way back in somehow.
我猜可能是我们中有人开始用了一次手机，然后另一个人就想，好吧，那我也用吧。
I guess maybe one of us started using the phone once, and then the other one's like, well, alright then.
然后，你知道的，不知不觉间，或者可能某周你生病了，结果手机就带上了床。
And then, you know, then the next thing you know or maybe you get ill one, you know, one week, and so you end up with your phone in the bed.
然后，你就这样慢慢丢掉了这个习惯，我想。
And then, you you just sort of like get out of the habit, I suppose.
习惯啊。
Habits.
它们很重要。
They're important.
是啊。
Yeah.
确实如此。
They are.
我总是把手机调成静音模式，因为我实在受不了那些不断的提示音，感觉非常打扰人。
I always have my my phone on silent always because I can't stand I can't stand the constant pings, you know, it's, feels very intrusive.
是的，我尽量限制使用手机，因为我想活在当下，体验生活的每一刻。
Yeah, I try to limit the use because I want to be living life, I want to be experiencing life in the moment.
昨天我站在河边，景色非常美，阳光在水面上闪烁，还有天鹅游过，但有人却掏出手机在拍摄。
Was watching, was standing by a river, I think yesterday and it was very beautiful and the sun was sparkling on the water and there were swans and somebody had their phone out and they were filming it.
我当时就想，不，我只想沉浸在这个瞬间里。
And I thought, no, I just wanna be in the moment.
就像你在格拉斯顿伯里音乐节看到的那样，所有人都在拍个不停。
Like when you see lots of people at Glastonbury for example, and they're all filming everything.
你觉得他们事后真的会回看这些视频吗？
Think, do you really watch this back afterwards?
我不确定，但就像你说的，这已经成了一种习惯，对吧？
I'm not sure, but it's like like you say, it's a habit, isn't it?
我们都养成了什么都拍下来的习惯。
We've all we've all got into the habit of filming everything.
不过说起来也挺好笑的，对吧？
It's funny that though, isn't it?
你拍下正在经历的瞬间，比如那条有天鹅的美丽河流。
That you you film the moment that you're experiencing, like there's this beautiful river with the swan on it.
你是在拍那只天鹅。
You're filming the swan.
实际上你并没有在看天鹅。
You're not actually looking at the swan.
你其实是在用手机拍天鹅时盯着手机看。
You're actually looking at your phone while it's filming the swan.
然后过后，你又重新看这段视频。
And then later, you're watching it again.
所以你自始至终都没有真正体验过河上天鹅的美景。
So you never, at any point, did you actually genuinely experience the swan on the river.
相反，你全程都是通过手机这个媒介来体验的。
Instead, you you it was mediated through your phone the entire time.
所以或许更好，我是说，我也不确定。
So it's probably better I mean, I don't know.
或许最好的方式是，你亲眼欣赏那只天鹅，享受用自己双眼观看的过程，同时让你的朋友拍摄下来。
It's probably tell you what the best thing is, is if you if you look at the swan and enjoy actually seeing it with your own eyes while your friend films it.
然后他们稍后再把视频发给你。
And and then they then they send you the video later.
是啊。
Yeah.
不过，确实是这样。
But, no, it's true.
没错。
Yeah.
我想，如果可能的话，你得试着活在当下，享受眼前的事物。
You gotta try and just enjoy things in the moment I guess if possible.
是啊。
Yeah.
对啊。
Yeah.
我觉得这真的很重要。
I think that's really important.
把手机收起来，对，活在当下，看看会发生什么。
Put put our phones away and yeah, just be be in the moment and see what comes up for us.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
绝对是这样。
Definitely.
好的。
Okay.
好吧。
Alright.
嗯，那不错。
Well, that's nice.
你在阿伯里斯特威斯，对吧？
You're in, Aberystwyth, are you?
你现在还在威尔士的阿伯里斯特威斯吗？
Are you in are you still in Aberystwyth at the moment in Wales?
你能说一下吗？
Can you say it?
阿伯里斯特威斯。
Aberystwyth.
阿伯里斯特威斯。
Aberystwyth.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
这是威尔士最难念的地名。
It's the most difficult Welsh, place name.
不。
No.
不是。
No.
是的。
Yeah.
我在阿伯里斯特威斯。
I'm in Aberystwyth.
所以，是的，这是个美丽的海滨大学城。
So, yeah, it's a lovely seaside university town.
我妈妈来自附近一个叫魔鬼桥的村庄。
My mum is from a village nearby called Devilsbridge.
大约八岁时，我们从汉普郡搬到了这里。
And when I was about eight, we moved from Hampshire to here when I was eight.
然后18岁那年，我搬去了西班牙。
And then when I was 18, that's when I moved to Spain.
所以我在这里有很多根，我妈妈住在这里，我们在这里有栋漂亮的房子，还有其他家人也在这里。
So I've got a lot of roots here and my mum lives here and we've got a lovely house here and I've got other family here.
在伦敦政治经济学院完成学业并在伦敦接受完所有培训后，我旅行了一段时间，生了个孩子，然后搬回了这里。
And after finishing in LSE and doing all my training in London, I went traveling for a bit, I had a baby and then I moved back here.
所以，是的，我在这里已经住了八年了。
So yeah, I've been here for eight years now.
对，八年或九年吧。
Yeah, eight or nine years.
是的，回来了。
Yeah, back.
不错的地方
Nice part
的，是啊，
of the Yeah,
这里很可爱。
it's lovely.
经常下雨。
It rains a lot.
最近我们享受了一周美好的阳光，非常美妙。
At the moment we've had a lovely week of sunshine, which is beautiful.
真的，阳光照耀时这里是世界上最美丽的地方。
Really, it's the most beautiful place in the world when the sun's shining.
但冬天可能会相当漫长且潮湿。
But the winters can be quite long and wet.
我不确定巴黎是什么样子，可能也很冷且潮湿。
And I'm not sure what Paris is like, maybe quite cold and wet as well.
情感上的寒冷。
Cold emotionally.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
可能是这样。
It can be.
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
尽管人们刻板印象中巴黎是鲜花盛开、空气清新的地方，但实际上那里的天气几乎和英格兰一模一样。
Paris is despite the stereotype where people imagine it's all flowers blooming and fresh air and stuff, it's it's the weather is almost exactly the same as it is in in England.
但是，英格兰却背负了这个名声。
But but, England has got the reputation.
英格兰、不列颠，你知道的，英格兰/威尔士，这两个国家的天气非常相似。
England, Britain, you know, England slash Wales, the weather's pretty similar across those two countries.
不过，确实。
But, yeah.
所以巴黎虽然以宜人的春日天气著称，但实际上它和伦敦等地一样阴雨连绵。
So Paris gets the it's got the reputation of having lovely springtime weather, but it's just as gray and and rainy as it is in in, you know, in London or something like that.
而且，巴黎的绿地并不多，这很遗憾。
And, yeah, Paris doesn't have that many green spaces, which is a pity.
我是说，它有很多很棒的东西。
I mean, it's got wonderful things.
当然，毕竟是巴黎。
Of course, it's Paris.
它很迷人。
It's amazing.
它确实有漂亮的公园，还有很棒的博物馆和其他文化景点可以享受。
And it does have nice parks, and there are great sort of museums and other cultural things to enjoy.
不过，我确实很怀念那些绿地和大自然的环绕。
But, yeah, one thing I do miss is certainly the green spaces and being surrounded by nature.
每当我回英格兰，去父母家小住时——他们住在中部地区的沃里克。
Whenever I go back to England and go and stay at my parents' place, they live in in Warwick in the Midlands.
尽管那是个城镇，而且相当繁忙，但绿化却出奇地好。
And it's wonderfully green even though it's a town, you know, quite a busy town.
依然满眼绿意。
It's still very green.
这确实是件很美好的事。
So that's a that's a lovely thing to have.
是啊。
Yeah.
我确实会受到冬季和天气的影响。
And I am I am affected by the winters and the weather.
和许多人一样，从九月开始就有很多客户来找我，他们发现自己的情绪在这段时间会明显低落。
And as are a lot of people, I get a lot of clients coming to me from September onwards, they find that their mood can really dip at these times.
因此我认为在冬季尤其要注意心理健康，多做些事情来保护自己免受冬季忧郁的影响，这非常普遍。
So I think it's especially important to look after your mental health in the winter during the winter months and to do to do more stuff to protect yourself from from that, you know, those winter blues, which is so common.
是啊。
Yeah.
对于从国外来英国生活的人来说，这绝对是他们必须面对的问题之一。
People coming from abroad and going to live in The UK, this is definitely gonna be one of the things they have to deal with.
我是说，就像你住在西班牙南部时那样，那里阳光充足，天气炎热。
I mean, like, when you'd lived in in Spain so you lived in in the South Of Spain where it's very sunny and and hot.
没错。
Yeah.
一直都是那样。
Like, all the time.
持续不断吗？
Just constantly?
阳光从不间断。
Constant sunshine.
是啊。
Yeah.
多无聊啊。
How boring.
我知道确实如此。
I know it was.
时间久了确实会感到无聊。
It it did get boring after a while.
所以
So
我开玩笑的，因为我有西班牙听众。
I'm I'm sort of joking because I've got Spanish listeners.
我相信那里很棒。
I'm sure it's fantastic.
那么，你在西班牙住了多久？
But, coming so you lived in in Spain there for how long?
大概十年左右吧？
About ten years or something?
是的。
Yeah.
大约十年。
About ten years.
对。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
然后你搬回了伦敦。
And then you moved back to London.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
那当时是什么感觉呢？
So what was that like then?
第一次经历伦敦的冬天是不是让你有点震惊？
Was it was was it a shock to kind of experience your first London winter?
是啊。
Yeah.
有点让人抑郁。
It was a bit depressing.
确实很震惊。
It was a shock.
我都忘了。
I'd forgotten.
我在西班牙待了太长时间。
I'd been in Spain for so long.
我已经到了习以为常的地步。
I had got to a point where I just took it for granted.
我当然知道那里的天气很好，但我想我忘了英国的天气有多糟糕。
I knew the weather was great obviously, but I think I'd forgotten how bad the weather in The UK was.
所以，是的，这确实有点令人震惊。
And so yeah, it was a bit of a shock.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我居住的西威尔士地区天气比伦敦还要糟糕。
And the the weather where I live in West Wales is even worse than it is in London.
所以这又是一次冲击。
So it's a shock again.
嗯。
Yeah.
正如你所说，我们谈论的是一个漫长的冬季，从十月份左右时钟调整开始。
So we're talking about, yes, as you said, a long winter where it's from from, you know, October time when the clocks change.
对吧？
Right?
时钟回拨后，冬天的傍晚太阳很早就下山了，大约下午四点半左右，太阳就会落山。
So the the clocks go back, and so you end up with the with the sun going down quite early in the evening, you know, about 04:30 in the winter, the the sun can sort of go down.
于是你就要面对这些漫长的夜晚。
And so you end up with these long nights.
即使是白天也可能相当阴暗，如果天空灰蒙蒙的，而且可能又黑又湿。
Even the days can be quite dark if it's gray overhead, and it can be, yeah, dark and wet.
那你是怎么应对这种情况的呢？
So how do you deal with that?
你有什么办法来应对我们经历的这些寒冷黑暗的冬天吗？
Do you have any ways of dealing with those cold, dark winters that we get?
去年我耍了个小聪明，去泰国参加朋友的婚礼待了两周，这太棒了，因为它确实打破了冬季的沉闷。
So last year I cheated and I went to my friend's wedding in Thailand for two weeks, which was amazing because it really broke up the winter.
但显然我没法经常这么奢侈。
But obviously I can't afford to do that all the time.
所以我有一盏‘悲伤灯’，偶尔会用用。
So I have a sad lamp, which I use sometimes.
等等，你有盏‘悲伤灯’？
Wait, you have a sad lamp?
你知道什么是悲伤灯吗？
Do you know what a sad lamp is?
季节性情感障碍。
Seasonal affective disorder.
哦，对。
Oh, right.
我还以为你说的是那种会伤心的灯，可能你
I thought you meant a lamp that was sad that you maybe you
可以跟它
could talk
倾诉
talk to
说话。
you.
不是。
No.
对。
Right.
季节性情感障碍。
Sad seasonal affective disorder.
所以我现在没带在身上给你看，但它是一种非常亮的灯，能模拟阳光，可以提升情绪。
So I don't have it with me to show you, but it's a lamp which is very bright and it kind of imitates sunlight and it can lift mood.
所以我有一个这样的灯。
So I've got one of them.
我不常用它，但需要的时候它就在那里。
I don't use it a lot, but it's kind of there if I need it.
我试着接受冬天的好处，我经常去做桑拿。
I try and embrace the good stuff about winter, I try and do lots of saunas.
我不太擅长冷水浴。
I'm not great at cold water immersion.
不知道你行不行，但我
I'm not sure if you are, but I That's
冷水浸泡。
cold water immersion.
就是跳进冰水池或坐在冰浴里。
That's where you dive into a freezing pool of water or you sit in an ice bath.
但这在这里越来越流行，确实对心理健康有益。
But it's it's it's getting quite popular here and it has real mental health benefits.
你先蒸桑拿，然后跳进海里，或者让人往你身上浇一桶冷水。
You do the sauna and then you jump in the sea or you get a bucket of cold water tipped over you.
据说这对心理健康确实有很多好处。
And it's, you know, it's supposed to really have a lot of mental health benefits.
短期内可不好受，因为刚进去时会觉得‘啊，这太难受了’。
Not in the short term, because in the short term, it's like, ah, this is horrible.
我是开玩笑的。
I suppose I mean, I'm joking.
不过，是的，我明白这确实有好处。
But, yeah, I I understand that, yeah, it does have benefits.
这像是北欧人的习惯对吧？你看斯堪的纳维亚人，你描述的那些行为在那里很典型，比如在...之后跳进冷水里
And it's like a Scandi thing, isn't it, as well that you can look at Scandinavians, and all the things you're describing are things that are quite typical there, jumping into cold water after being in
桑拿房之类的
a sauna and stuff.
我不清楚英格兰的情况，但在威尔士或我住的地方附近，整个桑拿冷水浸泡的潮流正变得非常流行
It's I don't know about in England, but in Wales or around where I live, it's becoming really popular, the whole sauna cold water immersion thing.
我尽量多去健身房
I try and go to the gym more.
我想，也许有本叫《冬藏》的书，有人跟我提过，虽然我还没读过，但据说讲的是要接纳季节变化，知道吗，像冬眠一样放慢节奏、蜷在温暖的炉火边也没关系
And I suppose, maybe there's a book called Wintering, somebody told me about it, Wintering, which I haven't read, but I think it's talking about kind of embracing the changes of the season, know, that it's okay to kind of hibernate and take things slowly and snuggle up by warm fire and, you know, it's okay.
这是一种与春夏不同的生活节奏，要学会拥抱它
It's, you know, a different a different pace of life than than the spring or the summer and just to kind of embrace it.
是啊
Yeah.
这样也挺好的
It can be nice.
确实挺不错的。
It can be nice.
你把自己裹得暖暖的，穿上一双可爱又保暖的袜子，套上拖鞋，然后裹着毯子，捧杯热茶什么的，享受冬日里那些美好的小确幸。
You you you wrap up warm, put a nice, pair of lovely warm socks on, pair of slippers, and, yeah, snuggle up with a blanket, nice cup of tea or something, and just enjoy the nice things about the winter.
是的。
Yes.
而且，你知道的，对于听众来说——因为我的播客在英国有不少听众。
And, you know, for for visitors, because I've got I've got people quite a lot of people in The UK who listen to this podcast.
我觉得他们大多不是以英语为母语的人，可能也有少数是，但大部分应该是从世界各地来英国留学的学生，对吧？
And I don't think they are, you know, native English speakers who already from the maybe I've got a few, but I think most of them are students who've traveled to The UK, right, from around the world.
他们肯定会在大学校园或宿舍里经历所有这些事情。
And they must be they must experience all this stuff living on their university campuses or whatever or their their halls of residence or whatever.
这很可能是他们经历的第一个冬天。
They must have these experiences where it's the first winter.
你知道的，他们通常八九月份才刚到英国。
You know, they arrive in September or August or something.
天气很快就急转直下，真的非常快。
And quite quickly, the weather goes downhill, like, really fast.
然后他们就陷入了第一年的学习生活，课业繁重，而且似乎总是天黑的。
And then they're plunged into their first year of studying where they're doing a lot of work, and it seems to be dark all the time.
但我想，我们得试着享受生活中温馨的一面。
But, I guess, yeah, we you have to try and enjoy the cozy side of things.
不过也要努力出去走走，太阳出来时就到户外去，充分利用阳光，锻炼身体。
But also, yeah, make an effort to get out, when the sun if the sun comes out, you go outside, you know, make the most of it, and get exercise.
还要记住冬天不会永远持续。
And also remember that it's not gonna last forever.
你知道的，对吧？
That's you know?
是吗
Did it
一月和二月可能会让人感觉有些阴郁，因为你会觉得这是个永无止境的冬天。
January, February can January, February can feel kind of bleak because you think this is a never ending winter.
但到了三月或四月，阳光出现时，你会感受到些许温暖，水仙花开始生长。
But then you get those days in March or April where the sun comes out, and it's just a little bit of warmth, there are daffodils growing.
你知道吗？
You know?
美丽的花朵开始绽放。
Beau flowers start to emerge.
花蕾绽放开来。
The blossom comes out.
这时候你真的应该走出去，好好深呼吸新鲜空气，让阳光洒在皮肤上，享受这些时刻。
And that's when you've really got to kind of go outside, get a good good take a good, breath of fresh air and get some sunlight on your skin and and enjoy those moments.
也许这就是为什么英国人在阳光明媚时会出门，甚至脱掉上衣，你知道的
Maybe that's why British people, when the sun shines, we go out and we kinda take our top off, and we kind of, you know
你会在三月看到人们穿着人字拖，尽管天气还...
You see people in flip flops in March when it's still You
要尽量利用那点有限的阳光，让皮肤多晒晒太阳。
gotta try and get as much sunlight on your skin as you can with that little amount of sunlight that's given.
是啊。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
真的很棒。
Is really nice.
艾玛，能再次和你聊天真是太好了。
Emma, it's very nice to talk to you again.
是啊，卢克，能和你聊天我也很开心。
Yeah, it's really nice to talk to you too, Luke.
就像我们说的，已经很久没见了，时间过得真快，对吧？
It's been, as we said, a long time and it's just crazy how quickly time goes, isn't it?
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It is.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
岁月匆匆，生活忙碌，工作繁忙，家庭琐事不断，不知不觉间，年复一年就这样过去了。
How the how the years pass and life is busy, work is busy and family's busy and, you know, the years just just pass by.
所以基本上
So so basically
好好享受吧。
enjoy them.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以当你看到一只天鹅在美丽的河面上，阳光洒在水面波光粼粼时，好好欣赏它，感叹这只天鹅真美。
So when you see a swan on a on a nice river with the sun, shining off the surface of the water, just have a good look at it and go, that swan is very beautiful.
看看那些美丽的羽毛。
Look at the lovely feathers.
没错。
Right.
你听说过正念吗？
That's, have you heard of mindfulness?
这种修行方式。
The practice.
这本质上就是在练习正念——活在当下，留意天鹅美丽的羽毛、阳光在水面闪烁的样子，感受微风拂面的触感。要真正欣赏这些事物，你只需要把手机放在口袋里，专注于当下。
So that's basically doing that, being in the moment and acknowledging, noticing the beautiful feathers on the swan, the sun glistening on the water, notice how the breeze feels on your face, being in the moment, which you to have your phone in your pocket to do that to really appreciate those things.
当然，有些人可能正拿着手机，因为他们正在享受这期播客节目。
And, you know, obviously, of course, some people have got their phone out because they're they're enjoying this episode of the podcast.
我们并不是建议你完全关机，但你可以选择收听音频版本。
So we're not suggesting that you just shut it off, but, you know, you can always listen to the audio version.
这就是我们播客音频版的妙处，听众们——你可以一边欣赏美丽的天鹅，一边收听最新一期的节目。
This is the wonderful thing about the audio version of this podcast listeners, that you can be looking at a beautiful swan while also listening, to the latest episode of the podcast.
你不必非得，你知道的，一直盯着YouTube看。
You don't have to be, you know, stuck to YouTube.
你随时可以收听音频版本。
You can always listen to the audio version.
这倒是个主意。
There there's an idea.
好吧，Emma。
Alright, Emma.
如果你今天安排很忙，我就不多占用你的时间了。
Well, if you got a busy day lined up, I'm gonna I'm gonna let you go.
你大概还有事情要处理。
You've probably got stuff to do.
今天我要去海滨大道散步，就像我说的，今天阳光明媚。
Today I am going for a walk on the prom because as I said, it's a lovely sunny day.
天空湛蓝，我们晚些时候还要去游泳和蒸桑拿。
The sky is blue and we're going swimming and sauna later.
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