敞开心扉

你知道，我当时大概21岁

You know, I was, like, 21.

所以，算是自力更生，过自己的生活

So, like, I was, like, living on my own dime, like, living my own life.

我当时住在纽约

I was living in New York City.

所以对我来说，作为酷儿并不羞耻

So there wasn't, the shame about being queer for me.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且这不像那种，你知道，住在父母屋檐下或保守小镇里那种吓人的出柜故事。

And it wasn't like this, like, scary coming out story of living under my parents' roof or living in a conservative town.

就是，情况很不一样。

Like, it was very different.

为什么你觉得这是你从未探索过的事情？

Why do you think it was something that you didn't ever explore?

其实我成长过程中有很多酷儿朋友，他们都挺开放的。

I had a lot of queer friends actually growing up, and they were, like, pretty open about it.

而我就觉得，不是我。

And I was like, not me.

就是，那是你们的事。

Like, that's for y'all.

我有好多同志朋友，男同女同都有，不过女同感觉更少见些。

Like, I had so many, like, gay friend gay guy friends and gay girlfriends, which is rarer, I feel like.

他们都会，怎么说，尽情享受自己的生活。

And, like, they would all, like, sow their oats and live their life.

而我就觉得，我这样就挺好。

And I was like, I'm good.

我一直都有男朋友。

Like, I always had a boyfriend.

身边总有个暧昧对象。

I always had a guy I was talking to.

我其实完全没有质疑过这件事。

I didn't really, like, question it at all.

所以

So

但那个障碍在哪里？

But where was the block?

因为那里确实有什么东西。

Because there was something there.

不。

No.

我从没遇到过让我心动的女孩。

There was I'd never seen a girl I was into.

我不是和她一起长大的。

I didn't grow up around her.

我有非常特定的类型，就是Nico这样的。

I have a very, like, specific type, and it's literally Nico.

如果我高中时和Nico同校，我早就沦陷了。

And I never if I had gone to high school with Nico, it would be over.

我肯定早就表白了，但我之前从没遇到过喜欢的类型。

Like, I would have been out, you know, but I'd never encountered the type of girl I was into.

你最后是什么时候遇到的？

When did you finally encounter one?

大概21、22岁的时候。

I was like 21 or 22.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你22岁了。

So you're 22.

你终于明白了。

You finally figure out.

没错。

Yeah.

有些情况正在发生。

Something's going on.

你遇到了一个符合你类型的人。

You met someone who is your type.

对。

Yeah.

你是否觉得自己在...之间摇摆不定

Do you feel like you waffled back and forth between

没有。

No.

我觉得当我尝试探索自己的酷儿身份时，就立刻感到非常确信自己确实很享受这种状态。

I feel like as soon as I, like, experimented in my queerness, I felt very validated that I very much enjoyed it.

相比与男性相处的经历，我享受这种状态得多。

I enjoyed it a lot more than my experience with men.

我仍然认为自己是双性恋，可以对任何人产生吸引力。

I still, like, identify as bisexual and, like, can have attraction towards everybody or anybody.

但我当时就觉得，哇。

But I was like, woah.

我更喜欢这样。

I like this so much more.

就像，这根本不成问题。

Like, there was no question.

而且，这让我感觉在与女性的关系中更被看见。

And also, it was like such a I just felt so much more seen in my relationships relationships with with women.

女性。

Women.

是啊。

Yeah.

就是感觉更合理了。

It just, like, made more sense.

对。

Yeah.

你什么时候开始和Nico约会的？

When did you start dating Nico?

我和Nico是在Emma开始交往的，那时你和Nico同居了吗？

Me and Nico started dating in Emma, when were you and Nico living together?

2021年？

2021?

我和Nico在2021年开始交往。

Me and Nico started dating in 2021.

这是你第一次正经的恋爱关系。

And that's your first kind of, like, serious relationship.

是的。

Yeah.

这是我维持最久的一段关系。

It's my longest relationship.

这是我第一次和别人同居。

It's the first time I've ever lived with somebody.

这也是她第一次和别人同居。

It's the first time she's ever lived with anybody.

这是她第一次认真的长期关系。

It's for her first serious long relationship.

好的。

Okay.

我们来聊聊这个吧。

Let's talk about it.

这段经历感觉如何？

What's been the experience?

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

说实话，这段感情真的太美好了。

I mean, it's been so good, honestly.

我最近在TikTok上看到一个视频说，寻找长期生活伴侣时，真正需要的是能每天像挚友般相处的陪伴。

I like I saw this TikTok recently that was like when you're looking for a long term life partner, like, what you need to look for is companionship and, like, somebody you could be best friends with every day.

我们相处得特别融洽。

We get along so well.

她每天都能逗我笑，同时也会挑战我的观点。

She makes me laugh every single day, and she challenges me.

你知道，人们总说'我的伴侣永远支持我'。

You know, like, everybody always says, like, oh, my partner is in my corner.

但她并不总是盲目支持我。

She's not always in my corner.

有时她会质疑我'你这样想不对'。

Sometimes she challenges me of, you're not thinking about this right.

'你耐心不够'。

You're not giving enough patience.

'你没有正确理解这件事'，而我确实需要这种提醒。

Like, you're you're not hearing this right way, and I really need that.

我真的很尊重她。

And I really respect her.

我觉得她非常睿智，这对我而言至关重要。

I find her so intelligent, and that's something that's so important for me.

哇。

Wow.

作为伴侣，我对她怀有坚定不移的敬意，也非常信任她的判断力。

For a partner, I have unwavering respect for her, and I trust in her judgment so much.

但你们之间确实有过一段小小的分手期。

But you guys had a little bit of like a a break period.

没有。

No.

我是说，我们分手了大概一年。

I mean, we were broken up for like a year.

在我们第一次恋爱时，我们交往了一年，然后分手了一年，之后复合到现在已经两年了。

So like in our first relationship, we dated for a year and then we broke up and for a year and then we've been back together for two years.

感觉这两段关系简直是天壤之别。

And it feels like the two relationships are night and day.

就像是，好吧，让我们好好分析一下。

It was like, Okay, let's unpack that.

我们刚开始约会时，我才刚满22岁。

So like when we first dated, it was like I was like just turned 22.

我当时住在纽约，而她住在洛杉矶。

And I was living in New York and she was living in L.

洛杉矶。

A.

我去看望她时，已经有点厌倦纽约了，只想给生活带来些改变。

And I was coming to visit her and I was kind of over New York and I just wanted some change in my life.

于是我就搬到了洛杉矶。

And I moved out to L.

洛杉矶。

A.

我们刚开始约会后不久。

Very quickly after we started dating.

不是为了她，不是说要和她同居，只是想去洛杉矶发展，她也正好在洛杉矶，我喜欢离她更近些。

Not for her, like, not, like, living with her, like, just wanted to be out in LA, she was also out in LA, and I liked being closer to her.

而且我更喜欢那里的生活，胜过这里。

And I liked it out there better or here.

说实话，我们当时都经历着太多变化。

Honestly, we were both going through so many changes.

比如Nico那时正在逐渐形成自我认知，我觉得变化很大。

Like, Nico was just, like, coming into herself as a person, I feel like a lot.

而我也在适应全新的生活。

And I was navigating this whole new life.

我感觉我们俩那时总是针锋相对。

And I feel like the two of us were really butting heads.

Nico倒没有和我对着干。

Nico wasn't butting heads with me.

是我在和她较劲。

Was butting heads with her.

就像试图和Nico吵架就像在撞墙。

Like, trying to fight Nico was trying to fight a wall.

我每天都会莫名其妙找理由吵架，这是我需要自我反省的问题。

Like, I but I would somehow try to find a reason to fight every single day, and that was some work I had to do myself.

所以这段感情确实走不下去了。

And so the relationship is really wasn't working.

然后我们就分手了，而且我们本来没打算复合，那一年我们都没联系，完全没有任何计划。

And, like, we broke up and, like, we did not plan on getting back together, that we did not talk for the year, like, we had no plans.

后来事情就这么发生了，她真正想清楚了自己的人生追求和目标。

And then it just happened, like, she had really figured out what she wanted with her life, what she was pursuing.

她对自己和生活环境都感觉自在多了。

She felt way more comfortable in herself and, like, where she was living.

而我开始服用抗抑郁药，不再跟所有人较劲了。

And I got on antidepressants, and I wasn't trying to fight everybody.

对啊。

Like yeah.

所以这段全新的关系，虽然我不该这么说，但真的特别轻松特别容易。

So, like, this whole new relationship has been, like, I hate to say it, but, like, easy easy, like, so much easier and so effortless.

我们了解彼此。

We know each other.

我们知道不喜欢什么，不想要什么样的关系，也知道自己想要什么。

We know what we don't like, what we don't want this relationship to look like, and we know what we do.

除了服用抗抑郁药，你还做了哪些自我调整？

What did the work on yourself look like besides the antidepressants?

那一年你都是怎么度过的？

Like, what did that year look like for you?

天啊。

Oh my god.

我直接跑路去了欧洲。

I, like, fucked off and went to Europe.

我就像，买了张单程票去了巴黎。

I, like, got on a one way to Paris.

我一个人都不认识。

I didn't know a single person.

我当时就想，我要去交朋友，我要想办法搞定一切。

And I was like, I'm gonna make friends, and I'm gonna figure it out.

结果我独自在欧洲旅行了大概三四个月，沿途结识朋友，发现了关于自己的很多事情，也明白了生活的意义对我来说是什么，比如我真正想要的是什么。

And I ended up, like, traveling Europe by myself for, like, three or four months and meet meeting friends along the way and finding out so many things about myself and, like, figuring out what life was about for me, like, what I really wanted.

我觉得我找到了很多正念，并对所拥有的一切心怀感激。

I, like, think I found a lot of mindfulness and gratefulness for all that I've been given.

这很像是《美食、祈祷和恋爱》的情节。

That's very eat, pray, love.

字面意思。

Literally.

而且，知道这事还会再次发生在我身上。

And like, know it's gonna happen to me again.

比如，再过五年我可能就会说，我要去亚洲了。

Like, give it another five years and I'll be like, I'm going to Asia.

嗯，其实这很有趣，因为我确实觉得，你知道，我刚刚在我的Substack上写了一篇文章，讲的是你做了所有这些自我提升的工作后，会以为'好了我准备好了'，然后开始一段关系，以为一切都会很完美。

Well, actually, it's interesting because I do feel like, you know, I just wrote something on my Substack about how it's like, you do all this work on yourself and then you think okay I'm good and then I'm gonna get into a relationship and everything is gonna be perfect.

但当你进入一段更健康的关系后，反而可能变得更难，因为它就像一面镜子照出你的问题，告诉你'看，这就是'

But then you get into a relationship that is healthier but then it almost becomes even harder because it's like a mirror up to you of like, hey, this is

一段关系的好坏取决于你能有多好。

The relationship is only as good as you can be good.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

就像是...什么

Like like what

你投入多少决定了它能变得多好。

you bring to it is how good it's gonna get.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以有趣的是你们俩都各自离开，做了自我成长，然后又回来，能够带着清晰的认知重新走到一起。

So it's like interesting that you both kind of went off, did work on yourself and then came back and were able to come to the table with like clarity.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们有好多朋友甚至粉丝都来问我们，问我是怎么重新找到复合之路的？

We have like so many friends who reach out to us and even followers reach out to me being like, how did you find your way back to each other?

我就说，这本来不是我们的本意。

And I'm like, this wasn't the intention.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们没计划这样。

We're not planning for this.

如果你冲着这个去，或者带着复合的希望分手，那你很可能不会成功。

And if you're gunning for that or breaking up with the hope that you get back together, like, you're you probably won't.

是啊。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

说得好。

That's a good point.

没错。

Yeah.

你觉得独自旅行中是什么让你开始关注正念和感恩这类事情的？

What do you think it was about traveling alone that opened you up to, like, mindfulness and gratitude?

我觉得，就是，

I think, like,

特别是在那些不以英语为主要语言的国家旅行，这真的让我感到不自在，不得不坐在一群不说英语的人中间。

it was specifically traveling in countries where they're not speaking English as their primary language, and it really made me be uncomfortable and sit around a bunch of people who aren't speaking English.

我必须放下手机，忍受这种不适感，不能发短信或干别的，只能坐在那里忍受这种不适，因为希望他们会转向我，想用英语和我交谈。

And I have to put down my phone and just be uncomfortable and sitting there and not, like, texting or whatever or fucking off and and sitting there and being uncomfortable around them because, hopefully, they'll turn to me and wanna talk in English to me.

所以这就像重新学习社交技能，不再总是盯着手机，因为我以前有严重的手机依赖问题。

So it was, learning how to, like, relearn my social skills and not constantly be on my phone because I had such a phone issue.

因为这就是我的职业。

So, like because this is my career.

我当时对手机严重上瘾。

I was so heavily, like, addicted to my phone.

哇。

Wow.

它确实帮助我走出了舒适区，把自己置于新环境中，结识新朋友。

So it, like, really helped me, like, just be uncomfortable in myself, put myself in new environments, meet new people.

是的。

Yeah.

就像是学会了抽离，同时也发现了事物的美好。

Like, and just learn to, like, disconnect, but also, like, find the beauty in things.

这真的帮助我探索了自己的时尚风格和灵感来源。

It really, like, helped me explore my fashion and style and my inspiration.

你觉得这对改善手机成瘾有帮助吗？

Do you feel like it helped with your phone addiction?

既有也没有。

Yes and no.

我觉得刚开始当我还在努力认识人时，确实让我感到不自在。

I think at the beginning when I was, like, still trying to meet people, like, made me uncomfortable.

这迫使我放下手机走出舒适圈去认识人，因为如果你躲在角落发信息，没人会主动和你说话。

I forced me to be off my phone and be uncomfortable and, get to know people because nobody's going to talk to you if you're, like, in the corner texting.

但后来我们的小团体变得非常紧密，我认识了所有人。

But then, like, my group became so tight knit and I knew everybody.

我们都会说'来拍照吧'。

And we were all like, let's take pictures.

我们去这里吧。

Let's go here.

我们来做

Let's make

一个视频。

a video.

所以就像

So it's just like

它如浪潮般涌来。

it comes in waves.

你知道吗？

You know?

是啊。

Yeah.

就像现在每个人都是内容创作者。

Like And everybody's a content creator.

所有人都在创作内容。

Everybody was taking content.

但我觉得就连你说的这种浪潮——无论是恋爱中、旅行中，还是突破舒适区后又回到舒适区——

But I feel like even this wave that you're talking about, like, inside of a relationship or traveling and and breaking outside of your comfort zone and then coming back to a comfort zone.

我觉得关键在于找到不同的方式去实现。

Like I think it's all about finding different ways to do that.

无论你处于恋爱中、单身中，还是独处时，我们都会陷入这种停滞的模式。

Like whether you're in a relationship, whether you're out of a relationship, whether you're by yourself, I feel like we all kind of get in these stagnant patterns.

然后就会想：我该如何摆脱这种状态，去做些日常不做的事，好重新找回那些碎片般的自我。

And then it's like, okay, how do I shake myself from that and go do something that I'm not doing every day so that I can remember how to like find those pieces of myself again.

我就是这种感觉。

That's how I felt.

我刚跑完第二次马拉松，完全不知道该怎么再跑一次，因为第一次训练时的情景对我来说太特别了。

So like I just ran my second marathon and I had no clue how I was going to do it again because it looked such a certain type of way for me when I trained for my first marathon.

那时候我在纽约，还在上学。

Like I was in New York, I was in school.

我每天上学前有固定时间跑步。

I had X amount of time before school to run.

当时我只需要专注这件事。

I was just focused on that.

但现在我困惑的是，当我有大把时间、又有无数理由不去专注时，该怎么完成训练？

But I was like, how do I do it now when I have all the time in the world and like every opportunity to not focus on it?

你懂吗？

You know?

是啊。

Yeah.

所以这还挺有意思的。

So it was, like, interesting.

我该如何重新鞭策自己，再次走出舒适区，完成这个曾经挑战过我的事情？

How do I shake myself up and get uncomfortable again and do this thing that challenge you challenged me in the past?

你有没有发现生活中某些时期——比如你和Nico分手时——和跑马拉松存在相似之处？

Do you find, like, parallels between, like, time in your life when you and Nico were broken up and running the marathon?

噢，没有。

Oh, no.

其实相似点在于第一次跑马拉松和现在，都是与自我较劲的过程。

It's a thing because, like, I I find parallels between the first time we ran the marathon and now of, like, being so good at myself.

我记得上一次真正、真正感到快乐和自我认可，是在纽约跑步的时候。

Like, I remember the last time I was, like, truly, truly, really happy and good at myself was when I ran New York.

现在我感觉自己正重新找回那种状态。

And now I feel like I'm getting back to that place.

那种感觉真的很奇妙。

Like, that real Interesting.

比如每天六点起床，九点睡觉，自己做饭，有意识地独处，每天挑战自己。

Piece of, like, waking up every day at six, going to bed at nine, like, cooking for myself, spending, like, intentional time with myself, like, challenging myself every day.

有趣的是，这总能让你回归本心。

It's interesting because it always takes you back home.

在我人生这些试图认清自我或理清现状的阶段，一切都显得那么零散混乱。

I feel like in these portions of my life where I'm like trying to figure out myself or like what's going on like things feel so sporadic and chaotic and whatever.

似乎静默永远是答案。

It's like stillness is always the answer it feels like.

我感觉我们生活在一个崇尚快节奏的文化里。

I feel like we live in a culture that's like go go go go.

为了

For

确实。

sure.

你想跟上节奏，害怕错过，被各种事情裹挟，但真正为自己做饭时——

And you wanna keep up and you have FOMO and you have all of this, but it's like actually when you just cook for yourself.

说真的，我感觉自己站在世界之巅。

Literally, like, I am on top of the world.

是的。

Yes.

该睡觉了。

It's go to bed.

对啊。

Yeah.

真的。

Literally.

我就想，你走吧，反正别想把我赶出这房子。

I'm like, you go you can't get me out of this house.

我儿子在付房租，我正享受着呢。

My son is paying that rent and I am enjoying it.

前几天我听人说，从进化论角度看，人只能维持大约150个社交关系。

I was listening to something the other day that was saying that evolutionary wise, you only can make like a 150 connections.

你的大脑处理能力有限，对吧。

You you only have the compute yeah.

我在Instagram上只关注了3000人。

I'm only only have 3,000 people on Instagram.

没错。

Exactly.

所以现在，我们既要维持这些粉丝关系，又要应付各种社交联系，其实已经超出我们的能力范围，但我们还在硬撑。

And then so now, like, with these followings that we have and the connections that we're trying to keep up with, like, our we don't have the capacity, but we're trying to have the capacity to do that.

我甚至，

I was even,

就像，和我们的朋友特伦聊天那样。

like, talking to our friend, Terren.

就像，她的朋友正在开发这个应用，可以让你在马拉松的每一英里发送消息，然后通过耳机播放。

Like, her friend is making this app where you can, like, send messages for every mile of the marathon and it plays through your headphones.

然后她就说，我当时就想，哦，该死。

And she's like, I was like, oh, shit.

我是说，我根本不认识26个会想在跑马拉松时听到他们声音的人。

Like, I don't know 26 people that I would that I would want to hear their voice while I'm running a marathon.

老实说，我没那么多可以深交的人。

Like, I don't fuck with that many people, honestly.

就是那种，

Like That's,

不过，这可能是件好事。

like, probably a good thing, though.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为我根本维持不了151段关系。

Because I can't nurture a 151 connection.

说真的，我的大脑容量已经饱和了。

Like, I literally am at capacity in this own mind, like, of mine.

不行。

No.

但是当我看到那些朋友成群的人时，我就觉得我们从根本上就完全不同。

But, like, when I see people with, like, troves of friends, I'm like, we are fundamentally so different.

我不明白怎么回事或为什么，但我永远不可能成为你。

I don't understand how or why, but, like, I'll never be you.

而且我对自己也毫无兴趣。

And I don't have any interest in me.

做

Do

你觉得Nico也是这样的吗？

you feel like Nico's the same way?

不。

No.

天啊。

Oh my god.

Nico有好多朋友。

Nico has so many friends.

太疯狂了。

It's insane.

每个Nico都像是我们彼此都认识一样。

Every Nico's like how we all know each other.

其他。

Other.

是啊。

Yeah.

就像，Nico就是那面镜子。

Like, Nico is the mirror.

我们这边。

Our side.

但是，尼科，我每和她多约会一周、一个月、一天，就会发现她有个新朋友。

But, like, Nico, every week, every month, every day I date her longer, I find out about a new friend.

我就问，你是怎么认识这个人的？

I'm like, how do you know this person?

都三年了，她还在跟我说，哦，这个人是这里的，那个人是大学同学，哦，我是在这里认识他们的。

Like, three years in, she's still telling me, oh, this person from here and this person from college, and, oh, I met them here.

我就说，姑娘，你都不出门的。

And, like, I'm like, girl, you don't leave the house.

你怎么会有这么多朋友？

Like, how do you have all these friends?

我到底漏掉了什么？

Like, what am I missing?

玛蒂尔达也是这样的。

That's how Matilda is too.

这其中学习曲线差异很大，但两种方式都没错。

And there is a big difference in like a learning curve in that of like, neither way is wrong.

我觉得关键是要学会把这两种方式结合起来，因为这是个很大的...

I think it's just like learning to marry those two together because it is a big

问题是尼科并不想维系她那数不清的友谊。

The thing is is that Nico doesn't try to nurture all of her millions of friendships.

她见到朋友就见，没见到就算了。

Like, when she sees them, she sees them and, like, whatever.

但玛蒂尔达是个善于培养关系的人。

But Matilda's a nurturer.

就是，我不知道她哪来的精力能和这么多人保持朋友关系。

Like, I don't know how she has the bandwidth to, like, be friends with all these people.

我简直惊呆了。

I'm like, oh my god.

我做不到。

I couldn't.

问题就在这儿。

That's the thing.

我很欣赏她能交这么多朋友，有这么多人可依靠或倾诉，但，呃，不适合我。

Like, love that she's friends with so many people and has so many people she could lean on or talk to, but, uh-uh, not for me.

比如，我需要有一个人可以随时联系，就像

Like, I need my, like, one person I can call all the time and like

我也有点这样。

I'm kind of that way too.

就是，我有一群可以分享事情的人，差不多就这样。

Like, I I have a group of people who I share things with and that's kind of like it.

其他人就只是泛泛之交。

And the rest are very Surface.

是啊。

Yeah.

不是说肤浅，只是没那么亲近。

Like, not surface, but just like not as close.

就是，不是我寻求稳定感的那种人。

Like, not the people who I go to for like, you know, stability.

对。

Yeah.

《爱情盲选》、《爱情岛》、《单身汉》、《最后通牒》。

Love is Blind, Love Island, The Bachelor, The Ultimatum.

《欲望都市》、《布里奇顿》、《白莲花度假村》。

Sex and the City, Bridgerton, White Lotus.

如果你痴迷于恋爱真人秀、浪漫喜剧、香艳爱情小说这类内容，那你来对地方了。

If dating reality shows, rom coms, smutty romance novels, and the like are your jam, you're in good company.

欢迎收听《两黑妞一玫瑰》。

Welcome to Two Black Girls, One Rose.

一档通过热门电视节目剖析现代约会、爱情与恋爱关系的播客。

A podcast uncovering what we can learn about modern dating, love, and relationships from popular television.

我是娜塔莎。

I'm Natasha.

我是贾斯汀。

And I'm Justine.

我们是最好的朋友、影视狂热粉、也是无可救药的浪漫主义者。

We're best friends, TV and film fanatics, and hopeless romantics.

每周我们都会在播客里解构那些让你欲罢不能的俗套剧情，梳理混乱关系，笑看狗血桥段，试图理解名为爱情的谜题。

And every week on our podcast, we're dissecting your favorite guilty pleasures, unpacking the mess, laughing at the drama, and trying to make sense of this thing called love.

难道所有男人都是自恋狂吗？

Are all men narcissists?

你的

How much should your

妈妈应该了解多少关于你的恋爱关系？

mama know about your relationship?

一个人离过两次婚是不是行走的红色警报？

Is a person twice divorced a walking red flag?

这些问题正是我们在分析你最爱的节目时试图解构的。

These are just some of the questions we attempt to unpack while analyzing your favorite shows.

加入我们的沙发闲聊

Join us on the couch

听听两个黑人女孩的见解，一朵玫瑰，无论你在哪里收听播客。

and listen to two black girls, one rose wherever you get your podcasts.

好的。

Okay.

所以我们休息了一年。

So we took a year off.

我们经历了自己的'美食、祈祷、恋爱'时刻。

We did our eat, pray, love moment.

字面意义上的。

Literally.

我们是怎么重新聚到一起的？

How did we come back together?

我和Tinder有个合作项目，他们要求我登录应用随机找个人约会，然后在第二天做个关于这次约会的访谈。

I had a deal for Tinder, and they told me I need to go on the app and find a random person to go on a date with and then do an interview about the day afterwards.

我当时就想，我可不会为一个陌生人做这种事。

And I was like, I am not doing that for a random person.

感觉这实在太糟糕了。

That's so horrible, I feel like.

但我当时就觉得，在事后复盘时和一个陌生人做这种事，真的让我很不舒服。

I But was like, I I do I don't feel comfortable doing that with, like, a random person, you know, in debriefing.

其实我隐约感觉到Nico想和我见面。

And I low key knew that Nico wanted to hang out.

虽然我们没具体计划，但已经在Instagram上重新互关了。

Like, we weren't planning on anything, but we had, like, refollowed each other on Instagram.

我们关系不错。

We were good.

相处得很融洽。

We were cordial.

然后我就想，你们猜我觉得谁会愿意和我约会？

And I was like, I you know who I think would go on this date with me?

我在想Nico会不会愿意和我约会。

I was like, think Nico will go on this date with me.

所以我就在Tinder上约了她，她看起来美极了。

So I invited her on the Tinder date, and she looked so good.

她看起来把自己照顾得很好。

She looked like she was really taking care of herself.

她的穿搭特别可爱。

She looked like her outfit was so cute.

她看起来就是那么自在，完全做自己。

She seemed just so like herself and into her own skin.

我当时就想，靠。

And I was like, fuck.

就是，她让我，我就是想她。

Like, she like, I just I miss her.

我甚至不确定那时候我是否想她。

I I didn't even know if I missed her at that point.

我就觉得，她看起来太棒了。

I was like, she just looks so good.

我真心为她感到高兴。

And I'm like, so happy for her.

然后她邀请我去她家泳池，办了个小型泳池派对。

And then she, like, invited me to her pool for, like, a little pool party.

之后我们见面更多了，但我还是在美国和欧洲之间来回跑。

And then we started hanging out more, but I was still, like, bopping back and forth between here and Europe.

我当时就想，我不想伤害你的感情。

And I was like, I don't want to hurt your feelings.

你懂吗？

You know?

就是，我不知道这段关系会怎样发展。

Like, I don't know where this is going.

然后她说，我也不想你伤害我的感情。

And she was like, I don't want you to hurt my feelings either.

我当时就觉得，我真的只想和她在一起。

And I was like, I think I really just wanna be with her.

所以，是的，我们就继续交往见面。

And so, yeah, we just kept going and seeing each other.

你觉得在这段关系里你是焦虑型还是回避型？

Do you feel like you are the anxious in this relationship or the avoidant?

还是说你们俩都是回避型？

Or do you are you both avoidants?

我分辨不出来。

I can't tell.

我分不清

I can't

我们俩谁是什么类型都说不准。

tell what either of us are.

我可以直接告诉你答案。

I could knock it out on you.

是啊。

Yeah.

不。

No.

就像，我们正处在这段关系中。

Like, we're in this relationship.

我们是安全型的。

We're secure.

是啊。

Yeah.

但每个人都有倾向性。

But everybody has tendencies.

比如，你倾向于哪边？

Like, which way do you lean?

焦虑的反义词是什么？

What's the opposite of anxious?

回避型？

Avoidant?

不是。

No.

因为我太爱对抗了。

Because I'm so confrontational.

我绝对不是回避型。

Like, I'm definitely not avoidant.

不是。

No.

尼科是焦虑型，但安全型。

Nico is anxious, but secure.

我是攻击型，但安全型。

I am aggressive but secure.

我从不介意挑起争端，或者坚持到底。

I don't have any problem picking a fight or, like, seeing it through.

但是，我们感情很好很稳固，所以我想我们不会看到对方那些不好的方面。

But, like, we're so good and so solid that I don't we don't really see those sides over each other, I guess.

对她来说，花时间陪我也非常重要。

It's really important for her to spend time with me too.

就像她下班回来，如果我在外面吃饭不在家，她就会说，我好想你。

It's like if she comes back from work and like I am out at a dinner and then gone here, she's gonna be like, I really missed you.

比如，你去哪儿了？

Like, where were you?

别再这样了，拜托。

Don't do that again, please.

太可爱了。

That's so cute.

是啊。

Yeah.

但说真的，我们互相依赖，同时也非常独立。

But like, we really lean on each other, but we're also very independent.

嗯。

Yeah.

看得出来。

You can tell that.

不过重新复合是什么感觉？

What was the coming back together like, though?

因为分开、分手、知道过去有这么多经历再复合，这很难吧。

Because that's, like, hard to be apart, to have a breakup, to know, like, we have all of this in our past and then to come back together.

这就像是，你怎么会知道那种事呢？

It's like, how do you kind of just know that?

我不认为

I don't think

我们当时对复合这件事想得太多了。

we were, like, overthinking the coming back together.

我们顺其自然，看事情会如何发展。

We were letting it, like, kind of unravel itself and see where it went.

因为我直到我们重新开始约会一段时间后，才再次请她做我女朋友。

Because I didn't, like, ask her to be my girlfriend again until a bit into us starting seeing each other again.

所以我们当时算是随意约会的关系。

So we were, like, casually seeing each other.

然后，当我再次去欧洲时，她也来了欧洲。

And then, like, she came to Europe when I was, like, out in Europe again.

当时我在拍我的第一个杂志封面，她来看我拍摄。

I was shooting, like, my first magazine cover, and she came and saw it.

我记得我们正要离开阿姆斯特丹，开车去柏林。

And I remember we were, like, about to leave Amsterdam and drive to Berlin.

我们在酒店吃早餐时，我从拍摄用的珠宝云中取出一条项链，那是个N或NO的字母。

And we were in, like, the little hotel breakfast, and I took, like, one of my necklaces out from my jewelry cloud that I was shooting, and it was an n or no.

我想那是个V。

I think it a v.

我把那个V给了她。

I gave her the v.

我当时就问，你愿意做我女朋友吗？

And I was like, will you be my girlfriend?

哦。

Oh.

因为我觉得，她是为了我才来的。

Because I was like, she's come out here for me.

我们一直在约会。

Like, we've been seeing each other.

虽然我们确实在交往，但我还是觉得需要正式地再问她一次要不要做我女朋友。

Like, I I need to formally ask her to be my girlfriend again, even though we were, like, really seeing each other.

但这段关系确实是自然而然地发展的。

But it was really unraveling organically.

那时我们在一起很开心，都展现出了最好的一面。

We were having a lot of fun together and just meeting each other at our best during that time.

后来当我们正式复合，开始每天见面、分享生活时，我们就觉得，好吧。

And then I think once we got, like, we were officially back together and see each other every day and sharing our lives, we were like, okay.

我们不该无缘无故地复合。

Well, we shouldn't be getting back together for no reason.

我们应该为了明确的目的复合，比如我们真的想继续这段感情。

We should be getting back together for, like, an intentional, like, we wanna do this.

我们真的想继续下去。

We really wanna do this.

我们想要建立一段美好的关系。

We wanna have a good relationship.

我们想看看这段关系会如何发展，并希望能更进一步。

We wanna see where this goes and take it to the next level.

比如讨论同居这类事情，因为刚开始约会时我们对此非常害怕，或者说未来规划、家庭计划，甚至是结婚会是什么样子？

So, like, things like talking about moving in together because we were very, like, scared of that when we first dated or, like, what is future planning or family planning or, like, getting married look like?

于是我们开始带着明确的意图讨论这些，与第一段关系时完全不同。

And so we started talking about that with actual, like, intention in this relationship versus, like, in our first relationship.

我记得有天试着和Nico聊同居的事，她当时说，我们收入差距这么大。

I remember I tried to talk to Nico about living together one day, and she'd be like, well, there's a huge income disparity.

这怎么可能行得通呢？

Like, how is that ever going to work?

这对我们来说会是什么样子，你懂吗？

Like, how are we what is that going to look like for us, you know?

所以这件事当时感觉离我们特别遥远。

And so it was like something that felt so out of touch for us.

但在第二段关系里，这就变得很简单。

But in the second relationship, it was just like easy.

有意思。

Interesting.

为什么？

Why?

你觉得为什么第二次会顺利这么多？

Why do you think it was so much easier the second time around?

我觉得第二次相处时她对我放心多了，觉得我在为她着想，总是希望她好，她对我也是同样。

I think she felt way more comfortable with me the second time around and that, like, I was looking out for her and always want the best for her and vice versa.

而且，你知道，她也开始质疑那种认为和伴侣同居就必须房租对半开或事事平分的观念。

And, like, you know, she also challenged her thinking of, like, moving with your partner doesn't always mean splitting the rent fifty fifty or doing everything fifty fifty.

有意思。

Interesting.

就是说，你们承担的分量是不同的。

Like, you you carry different weights.

我觉得她开始明白有时候自己需要多付出一些。

And I think she was starting to understand that sometimes she'll pitch in more.

可能这周她做饭多些，下周我倒垃圾多些。

She'll cook more in one week, and I'll take out the trash more one week.

她正在学习如何经营一段认真的长期关系。

She was learning like her footing in a serious long term relationship.

那具体是怎样的呢？

And how does that look?

并不是简单地对半平分。

It's not just like split down the middle.

并非事事都要五五开。

Everything's fifty fifty.

是啊。

Yeah.

那我们该如何实现这种平衡呢？

And how do we make that work?

我觉得人们很少讨论这个话题，因为我们总被灌输一种画面——好像所有事都该绝对公平或完全平等。

I feel like people don't talk about that enough, like, because I think that is the picture we get painted just like everything is like fair, everything is or everything is equal.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我认为他们说的是，一切都应该公平。

But I think what they say is like everything should be fair.

而且我觉得这也是玛蒂尔达和我努力争取来的东西。

And I think it is also like something Matilda and I have you know like struggled to get to.

我们也一起工作。

We also work together.

所以这就涉及到很多谁做什么、在哪做的问题。

So it's like a lot of who does what and where.

我们在一起三年了，我觉得我们现在才逐渐达到一种状态：这样感觉对吗？

And we've been together three years and I would say we're just now coming around to like, okay like does this feel okay?

这样感觉对吗？

Does this feel okay?

但要达到这种状态需要时间。

But like it takes a while to get into that.

而且她从未和别人同居过。

And like she had never lived with anybody.

我也从未和别人同居过。

I'd never lived with anybody.

所以迈出下一步似乎难以想象。

So it seemed like inconceivable to move into these next steps.

我就想那会是什么样子？

I'm like what does that look like?

是啊，那你觉得你的期望与现实相比，是差不多还是大不相同？

Yeah and so do you think that your expectations versus reality, do you think it's been the same, very different?

现在住在一起真的轻松多了。

It's literally so much easier living together now.

不用再两头搬东西，不必无谓地分开，也不用觉得房租都白交了。

It's not like we have to schlep stuff between houses and like deal with time apart for no reason and like feel like we're like wasting our rent.

现在真的感觉好多了，我们真正住在一起，能共享一个家。

Like it feels so much better now that we actually live together and can share a base.

我觉得她也担心我在设计方面会特别有领地意识，但其实我并没有。

I think she's also worried that, like, design wise, I would be so territorial, but, like, I'm not.

搬家时我直接捐掉了一半的东西，因为知道那不是她的风格。

Like, I literally, like, donated half my shit when we moved into this new house because I knew it wasn't her vibe.

说实话，那些东西可能也不再是我的风格了。

And, like, honestly, it's probably not my vibe either anymore.

不过这个过程确实很有趣，我们一起慢慢打造这个家和共同的生活。

But, yeah, it's been a fun, cute little thing to kinda pan out and create this home and this life together.

这真的很充实，我们非常非常幸福。

It's, like, really fulfilling and really, like, we are so happy.

你提到现在是个有趣的时间点，因为周围人都在迈向感情的下个阶段。

You've mentioned that it's an interesting time in your relationship because, like, everybody around you is moving to, like, these big next steps in their relationships.

这让你们不得不开始思考：那我们呢？

And so it's forcing you guys to kind of look and be like, okay, well, where are we?

我们的未来会是什么样子？

What does that look like?

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，我26岁，但尼可身边所有朋友和认识的人都是三十多岁的。

I mean, like, I'm 26, but, like, all our friends and, like, all the people that Nico's around are in their thirties.

你懂吗？

You know?

感觉所有人都在结婚。

It's like everybody's getting married.

他们在做试管婴儿。

They're doing IVF.

他们在找精子捐赠者。

They're finding sperm donors.

而我就在那儿附和着说'是啊'。

Like and I'm like, yeah.

大学都毕业了。

Graduated college.

但其实我心想'并没有'。

And I'm like, no.

没毕业。

Didn't.

但在事业和生活方面，我跟他们处在同一阶段。

But career wise and life wise, I'm there with them.

就像我已经三十多岁了一样。

Like, I'm in my thirties.

我觉得这就是我作为人的本性。

I feel like just the way I'm like, I am as a person.

但我并不着急。

But, like, I'm in no rush.

我们所有的朋友都在订婚什么的，这对他们来说压力山大，期望值太高了。

Like, all our friends are getting engaged and stuff, and it actually seems so stressful on them and so much expectation.

就算我和Nico三四年后私奔了，我也不会感到惊讶。

Like, I wouldn't be surprised if me and Nico, like, eloped in three years or four years.

但问题就在这儿。

But, like, that's the thing.

三年后，我们恋爱就满六七年了。

In three years, we'll have been dating for six or seven years.

对吧。

Right.

根本不用急。

There's no rush.

我们等了三年才同居，经历了分手又复合。

We waited three years to move in together, like, went through a whole breakup and came back together.

是啊，真的不用急，我们也没感到压力。

But, like, yeah, there's no rush, and we don't feel the pressure.

不过作为女性，想到生物钟和生育能力保存这事还是挺疯狂的。

I mean, like, it's so crazy, though, as a woman to think about your biological clock and, like, preserving that.

朋友们都在冻卵，这是为了自我保存和未来规划，我觉得这很重要也很切题。

I mean, when our friends are freezing their eggs, like, it's for self preservation and for future planning, which I think is important and pertinent or whatever.

纯粹为了好玩，我发短信问我的同志朋友：'你愿意当我们的精子捐赠者吗？'

For shits and gigs, I'm, texting my gay guy friends being like, will you be our sperm donor?

他们回答：'愿意'

And they're like, yes.

我说：'他太帅了'

I'm like, he's so beautiful.

心想：'我们肯定能生出个超好看的孩子'

Like, we could have such a hot kid.

她完全同意：'没错'

And she's like, totally.

我又补充：'不过现在还不是时候'

And I'm like, just not now.

26岁啊，我26岁时甚至还没出柜呢

26 is so like, I wasn't even out at 26.

这让我很震惊，因为你现在对自己的身份这么确定了

That's crazy to me because you're like so set in who you are, you know.

我是27岁才出柜的

I came out at 27 years old.

是啊

Yeah.

而且我觉得27岁是个关键的形成期

And I feel like 27 is such a formative

对啊

Yeah.

年龄，土星回归。

Age, Saturn return.

是的。

Yes.

所以我简直无法想象以前会做那样的事。

So I just can't even imagine doing anything like that before.

确实。

For sure.

就像，我甚至想都不敢想。

Like, I'm I can't even think about it.

比如，我我连条狗都没有。

Like, I I don't even have a dog.

我们从来没养过狗。

Like, we've never we've never got a dog.

我们正在讨论这事，你懂吗？

Like, we're talking about it, you know?

我感觉自己就像个旁观者，见证了很多朋友的经历。

Like, I feel like I've been a backseat driver to a lot of my friends' experiences.

他们订婚、养狗、怀孕，这些看起来一点都不有趣。

Like, them getting engaged, them getting this dog, them getting pregnant, and, like, none of it looks fun.

我心想：哇哦。

I'm like Wow.

你们全都被自己的狗搞得焦头烂额。

All y'all are stressed over your dogs.

你们都在为戒指的事焦虑。

All y'all are stressed about your ring.

你们都在为伴侣和孩子的事焦虑。

All y'all are stressed about your partner and your kid.

而我却很淡定。

Like, I'm chilling.

但我惊讶的是，这居然没让你产生'我这辈子都不想要'的想法。

Like But I'm surprised that that doesn't make you be like, oh, I never want it.

不。

No.

当对的时间到来时，我绝对会想要。

I definitely want it when it's right for me and it's ready for me.

懂吗？

You know?

我甚至觉得现在住的地方都不够稳定。

Like, I don't even feel grounded in, like, where I'm living.

洛杉矶感觉不是长久之地。

Like, LA doesn't feel permanent.

比如之前发生过山火。

Like, we had the fires.

我住在托潘加的时候，还遭遇过泥石流之类的。

And when I was living in Topanga, there was, like, mudslides and everything.

我觉得这不是个值得买房定居的地方。

Like, this isn't a place that I would buy or set roots, I don't think.

有意思。

Interesting.

所以我在想，这不过是我生命中转瞬即逝的一个篇章。

So I'm like, this is a very fleeting chapter of my life.

不知道接下来会怎样。

I wonder what's next.

我和Nico经常讨论这个话题。

Like, me and Nico talk about it all the time.

我们其实已经获准在怀俄明州经营牧场，本来在搬进这栋房子前就该搬过去的。

Like, we literally got approved for ranch in Wyoming, and we were supposed to move there before we moved into this house.

但我们当时很担心生活方式转变会不会太仓促。

But, like, we were just so worried about, like, the change in lifestyle and is it too soon?

我觉得我们和这里其他人的发展轨迹不太一样。

So, like, we're not on the same path, I think, as everybody here and what they're doing.

可能未来几年我们会走上不同的道路，我很好奇会如何发展。

I think ours might look a little different in the next few years, but I'm curious, like, how that pans out.