Bought for a dollar - How ICE, the owner of the New York Stock Exchange, became a $65 billion exchange business

本播客所包含的信息仅供一般参考，不构成投资建议。

The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes and does not constitute investment advice.

在做出任何投资决定之前，您应根据自身情况寻求专业的投资建议。

You should seek investment advice tailored to your circumstances before making any investment decision.

这里是《In The Know》，由麦哲伦资产管理公司为您带来的月度投资播客，我们是全球投资领域的专家。

This is In The Know, a monthly investment podcast brought to you by Magellan Asset Management, experts in global investing.

我们为您带来及时、独特且发人深省的见解，帮助您理解当今的投资环境。

We bring you timely, unique, and thought provoking insights to help you make sense of today's investment landscape.

我不知道怎么创办交易所。

I didn't know how to start an exchange.

我以为只要在电脑上操作就行了。

I just assumed you would start it on a computer.

因为不知道怎么弄，我找到了一家濒临破产的公司，叫大陆电力交易所，位于佐治亚州亚特兰大。我说服了老板，让他们把公司卖给我，基本上没花什么钱，但我得承担他们200万美元的债务，这才是公司的实际成本。

And so not knowing how to do it, I found a company that was essentially going bankrupt called the Continental Power Exchange located in Atlanta, Georgia, and convinced the owners that I would buy it for essentially nothing, but then I would assume the $2,000,000 of debt that they had, which is the real cost of the company.

听起来你好像只用一美元就买下了它，感觉更好。

I It sounds better that you just bought it for a dollar gift.

是啊，可不是嘛。

I know, doesn't it?

顺便说一句，我没有提供任何个人担保。

By the way, I gave no personal guarantee.

所以我承担的债务其实没什么保障。

So my assumption of debt had very little standing.

我的律师说，你这是在冒巨大的风险。

My lawyer said, you're taking a huge risk.

我说，我觉得我冒的风险就值一美元。

I said, I think I'm taking a $1 risk.

说实话，大不了我就让公司破产。

Honestly, I'll just put the company into bankruptcy.

他说，那你会有声誉风险。

And he said, well, you have reputational risk.

我说，没人知道我是谁。

And I said, nobody knows who I am.

我没什么名声。

I don't have a reputation.

这位是杰弗里·斯普雷彻，洲际交易所（简称ICE）的创始人、董事长兼首席执行官。

That's Jeffrey Sprecher, founder, chairman, and CEO of the Intercontinental Exchange or ICE as it's known.

杰弗里在九十年代末把一个服务于美国电力行业的小型技术网络，发展成了如今价值650亿美元的全球企业，为世界各地的市场运营交易所和清算解决方案。

Jeffrey has transformed a small technology network serving The US power industry in the late nineteen nineties to a now $65,000,000,000 global enterprise, operating exchanges and clearing solutions for markets around the world.

它拥有纽约证券交易所。

It owns the New York Stock Exchange.

他最新的关注点是什么？

His latest focus?

改造美国抵押贷款行业，并实现数字化。

Transforming and digitizing The US mortgage industry.

这可不是小任务。

No small task.

ICE的非凡发展，得益于杰夫的远见卓识，以及他坚定不移地致力于将老式场内交易所转变为高效的数字平台，并在全球创建新市场。

The remarkable development of ICE has been driven by Jeff's visionary thinking and unwavering commitment to moving old analogue exchanges into efficient digital platforms and creating new markets globally.

从美国本土能源市场起步，如今洲际交易所的业务已遍及70多个国家，而这一切都始于1997年的一美元交易。

Starting with local US energy markets, ICE now operates in over 70 countries, and it all started with a single dollar transaction back in 1997.

首先，欢迎麦哲伦公司的主席兼首席投资官哈米什·道格拉斯。

First, a welcome from Magellan's chairman and CIO, Hamish Douglas.

欢迎大家回来。

Well, welcome back, everyone.

我是哈米什·道格拉斯，麦哲伦公司的主席兼首席投资官。

My name's Hamish Douglas, chairman and chief investment officer at Magellan.

这是2021年麦哲伦播客《洞见》的第二期。

This is our second edition in 2021 of Magellan in the know podcast.

今天，我非常高兴，也相当激动，能请到在我看来全球最杰出的首席执行官之一，也是全球最伟大的创始人之一。

I'm absolutely delighted and actually quite excited today to have, in my opinion, one of the great chief executives of the world and actually one of the great founders of the world.

这个人可能不常出现在报纸头条，但他却打造了全球最令人惊叹的企业之一。

This is probably somebody who isn't in the front lines of the newspapers that has built one of the world's most incredible businesses.

今天，我请到了杰夫·斯普雷彻，他是洲际交易所的创始人，同时担任主席和首席执行官。

Today, I have with me Jeff Sprecher, who is the founder and also the chairman and chief executive of Intercontinental Exchange.

洲际交易所确实是金融市场最令人惊叹的商业成功故事之一。

It truly has been, Intercontinental Exchange, one of the most amazing business success stories in financial markets.

1997年，杰夫以1美元收购了一家名为大陆电力交易所的公司，然后在2005年将后来成为洲际交易所的公司上市于纽约证券交易所。

Back in 1997, Jeff bought a business called Continental Power Exchange for $1 and then listed the business that became Intercontinental Exchange on the New York Stock Exchange in 2005.

自2005年以来，在过去的十五年里，该业务实现了每年17%的复合回报率，这绝对令人难以置信。

And since 2005, over the past fifteen years, that business has delivered compound returns of 17% per annum over fifteen years, which is absolutely incredible.

从那次1美元的收购开始，洲际交易所现在的市值约为650亿美元。

And from that $1 acquisition, Intercontinental Exchange now has a market capitalization of around 65,000,000,000 US dollars.

所以这真是一个了不起的成功故事。

So this is just an amazing success story.

杰夫，首先欢迎你。

And, Jeff, first of all, welcome.

我希望你能介绍一下自己的背景，也许简要总结一下自1997年以来你经历的这段不可思议的旅程，当然，还有1997年之前的职业生涯。

And I'd love you if you could provide a bit of background on yourself and maybe a brief summary of this incredible journey you've been on since 1997, and obviously, a journey in your career before 1997.

好的，首先感谢你的邀请，也谢谢你的美言介绍。

Well, first of all, thank you for having me, and thank you for flattering me with that introduction.

我有点觉得咱们现在就该结束，因为我不确定还能不能说得更好。

There's a part of me that says we should just end right now because I'm not sure I can get any any better.

我不确定我能做到你刚才夸我的那些。

I'm not sure I can deliver everything that you've held up with me.

我其实是学工程的。

So I'm an engineer by education.

我是化学工程师。

I'm a chemical engineer.

而且我对商业特别感兴趣。

And I have a real interest in business.

年轻的时候，我就特别爱看商业期刊和报纸，一直对商业很着迷。

As a younger person, I was just a rabid reader of business periodicals and newspapers, and I just was always fascinated by business.

所以我就决定去商学院读个硕士。

So I decided to go to business schools to get a master's degree.

在学校的时候，我遇到一个人，他想创办一家公司，利用加州法律的变化来推动可再生能源行业的发展。

While in school there, I met a fellow that had an idea to start a company to take advantage of the change in law in California that was going to try to stimulate the renewable energy industry.

这基本上是美国电力行业放松管制的第一波浪潮。

And it was essentially the first wave of deregulation of the electric power business in The United States.

我和这个人一起创办了一家公司，不是因为我对电力行业有什么了解，也不是因为我想成为可再生能源的绿色能源人士。

And I joined this guy in starting a company, not because I had any knowledge of the electric power industry and nor was I trying to be a green energy person with renewables.

我只是喜欢加入初创公司的想法。

I just like the idea of joining a startup.

我最终买下了他的股份，经营那家公司多年，在加州建设、拥有和运营电力资产。

And I eventually bought him out and ran that business for many years, building, owning and operating electric power assets in California.

而加州在90年代的一段时间里决定进一步放松管制。

And California, a period of time in the 90s decided to further deregulate.

他们希望消费者，特别是工业消费者，能够选择从谁那里购买电力。

And they wanted consumers, particularly industrial consumers, to be able to have a choice on who they would buy their electric power from.

他们希望人们能够选择是否要自己发电，使用可再生能源。

And they wanted people to have a choice on whether they wanted to generate their own renewable energy.

于是，州政府想出了一个只有政府才能想出的办法，那就是一个如何确定电力价格的公式。

And so the state came up with something that only government can do, which was a formula on how to come up with the price of electric power.

结果因为这个公式，加州最大的公用事业公司——太平洋煤气电力公司就破产了。

And as a result of that formula, the largest utility in the state, Pacific Gas and Electric went into bankruptcy.

当时州长格雷·戴维斯也因为持续的轮流停电和限电被罢免了。

And the governor of the state, Bray Davis was recalled and thrown out of office because of constant rolling blackouts and brownouts.

所以很明显，我们需要一个自由市场来确定电力的真实价格。

And so it was just obvious that what we needed was a free market to establish the true price of electric power.

于是我开始向政府提议，州里应该建立一个交易所，或者制定规则来支持交易所的成立。

And so I started advocating government that the state should create an exchange or facilitate rules that would allow for an exchange.

顺便说一句，安然公司就是最会钻加州规则空子的公司，最后也因此被起诉，走向了灭亡。

And by the way, Enron was the company that best took advantage of the rules in California and ultimately led to charges against the company and their ultimate demise.

总之，我对怎么创办交易所产生了兴趣。

Anyway, I got interested in how to start an exchange.

但我当时并不知道怎么创办交易所。

I didn't know how to start an exchange.

我只是觉得在90年代，应该用电脑就能搞定。

I just assumed you would start it on a computer in the 90s.

那时候，我们都已经有了联网的台式电脑。

At that point, we would all had network desktop computers.

因为不知道怎么搞，我找到了一家快要破产的公司，叫大陆电力交易所，在乔治亚州的亚特兰大，我说服了老板，让他们把公司几乎白送给我。

And so not knowing how to do it, I found a company that was essentially going bankrupt called the Continental Power Exchange located in Atlanta, Georgia, and convinced the owners that I would buy it for essentially nothing.

但我得承担他们两百万美元的债务，那才是公司的实际成本。

But then I would assume the $2,000,000 of debt that they had, which is the real cost of the company.

听起来你好像只花了一美元就买下来了，杰夫。

It sounds better that you just bought it for a dollar, Jeff.

是啊，可不是嘛。

I know, doesn't it?

顺便说一句，我没有提供任何个人担保。

By the way, I gave no personal guarantee.

所以我承担的债务其实没什么约束力。

So my assumption of debt had very little standing.

我的律师说，你这是在冒巨大的风险。

My lawyer said, you're taking a huge risk.

我说，我觉得我冒的险就值1美元。

I said, I think I'm taking a $1 risk.

说实话，大不了我就让公司破产。

Honestly, I'll just put the company into bankruptcy.

他说，那你还有声誉风险呢。

And he said, well, you have reputational risk.

我说，没人知道我是谁。

And I said, nobody knows who I am.

我没什么名声可言。

I don't have a reputation.

所以我是作为外行来学习的，我觉得公司成功的一部分原因就是，我对交易所一窍不通，却学会了交易、运营交易所和建立交易所。

So I learned as an outsider, and I think part of the success of the company was I learned about trading, and running an exchange and building an exchange by not knowing anything about an exchange.

所以我觉得我只是给市场真正发生的事情带来了一个完全不同的视角。

So I think I just brought a completely different perspective to what was really going on in the market.

杰夫，那你是怎么吸引参与者来这个交易所的？

And Jeff, how did you bring participants to that exchange?

你是怎么鼓励市场参与者真正来这个交易所的？

How did you encourage the market participants to actually come to that exchange?

你知道吗？

You know what?

那就是秘诀。

That was the secret sauce.

我和我的合伙人，我们跟美国能源领域的105个还是107个不同的参与者谈过，想让他们登录我们建的在线交易所进行交易。

My partners and I, we talked to, I believe it was a 105 or maybe it was a 107 different players in The US energy space, trying to get them to log on to this online exchange that we built and trade.

几乎所有人都跟我们说同样的话：一旦你把它运行起来，再回来找我。

And pretty much everybody told us the same thing, which was once you get it up and running, come back and call on me.

所以我们想不出怎么让它启动。

And so we couldn't figure out how to get it started.

如果它运营起来，我们有很多兴趣，但我们就是不知道怎么启动它。

We had a lot of interest if it was operating, but we couldn't figure out how to get it started.

那是在新年期间，Y2K新年。

It was over the New Year's, the Y2K New Year's.

如果你还记得，当时大家都以为世界末日要来了，因为所有的电脑系统都会崩溃。

If you remember that everybody thought the world was going to end because all computer systems were going to collapse.

那时候我还是个单身汉，那个新年夜就我一个人。

I was alone, I was a bachelor, and I was all by myself on that New Year's.

我坐在那儿，等着看午夜钟声敲响，看看银行系统是不是真的会消失。

And I was sitting there, we're going to watch the clock strike midnight and see if we no longer had a banking system.

那天晚上，加上这是新千年的开始，还有关于技术可能崩溃的种种讨论，我突然觉得，我必须做点什么，来决定这家公司到底是男是女。

And something about that night and the fact that it was a new millennia and everything that was going on with the conversation about potential failing technology, I just said, have to do something to decide whether or not this company is going to be a boy or a girl.

虽然我还不知道具体要做什么，但我一定要做点什么。

And I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to do something.

所以2000年1月，我去了高盛和摩根士丹利。

And so I went to Goldman Sachs and to Morgan Stanley in January 2000.

我跟他们说，我有这个想法，但靠我自己没法启动。

And I said, I have this idea, I can't get it started on my own.

你们愿意帮我吗？

Would you guys help me?

他们说，我们真正需要的是一个联合体。

And they said, what we really need is a consortium of people.

然后我们拿到了美国能源领域前13大参与者的排名表。

And we got the league table of the 13 largest participants in the energy space in The United States.

第一名是安然公司。

And number one was Enron.

所以我们把他们从名单上划掉了，因为那时候人们对安然及其所作所为已经感到不安。

So we crossed them off the list because by that time, people were nervous about Enron and what they were doing.

所以我们选了接下来的13家，把他们组成了一个联合体。

And so we went with the next 13 and put them together in a consortium.

回答你的问题，我提出给他们公司的股权。

And the answer to your question is I offered to give them equity in the company.

我并不在乎拥有这家公司。

I didn't care about owning the company.

我创办这家公司并不是为了经营它。

I didn't actually start the company to run it.

我创办公司不是为了赚钱。

I didn't start it to make money on it.

我创办它是因为我觉得加州的基础设施有问题。

I started it because I thought the infrastructure in the state of California was wrong.

这影响了我建电厂的事业。

And it was impacting my business of building power plants.

我觉得正是因为我怀有让公司变得更好的无私想法，才最终吸引了这些人，显然也稀释了我的股份。

And I think it was because I had an altruistic view of what the company should be that it ultimately attracted these people and obviously diluted my interest down.

但我更关心公司的成功，而不是我自己的经济利益。

But I cared more about the success of the company that did about my own economics.

我提到这个是因为有很多创业者来找我寻求建议，给我看他们的商业计划。

And I mentioned that because I have a lot of entrepreneurs come to me asking for advice and showing me their business plan.

令人惊讶的是，每次他们筹集资金时，创业者最终总是持有公司51%的股份。

And amazingly, whenever they're raising capital, the entrepreneur always ends up with 51% of the company.

当我问他们，你们是怎么得出这个估值，让你们自己持有公司51%的股份的？

And when I asked them, well, how did you come up with valuation that resulted in you with 51% of the company?

他们说，嗯，我需要公司51%的股份，因为我需要控制它。

They say, well, I need 51% of the company because I need to control it.

我问他们，那你为什么需要控制它呢？

When I asked them, Well, why do you need to control it?

他们说，如果我不控制它，我可能会被解雇或者被赶出公司。

And they say, Well, if I don't control it, I might get fired or might get kicked out of the company.

我总是说，你觉得你活该被赶出公司或者被解雇吗？

And I always say, Do you think you deserve to be kicked out of the company or deserve to be fired?

因为那是保留51%股份的一个糟糕理由。

Because that's a terrible reason to keep 51% of the company.

通常你能看出谁真正在乎成功的激情，谁只是为了经济利益才留在公司。

And normally you can tell who cares about the passion of success and who's in a company simply for the economics.

顺便说一句，我变得非常成功，但那是公司自身成功的结果，而不是因为我通过财务手段把自己弄到了不同的位置。

I mean, I become very successful, by the way, but it was as a result of the company on its own becoming successful and not because I financially engineered myself into a different position.

杰夫，我完全同意你的看法。

Jeff, I couldn't agree with you anymore.

你知道吗，在麦哲伦，我和克里斯·麦凯是联合创始人。

You know, at Magellan, I cofounder with Chris McKay.

我拥有公司12%的股份。

I own 12% of the company.

我们不控制公司，我认为那种必须把自己围起来的心态是非常糟糕的。

We don't control the company, and I think that mindset that you have to entrench yourself is a terrible mindset.

这往往会导致糟糕的决策，比如，如果你是创始人，但你没有控制权，你只需要保持专注，不断增长业务，对客户和股东等做正确的事情，而不是觉得自己给自己建了一座堡垒。

And it often leads to bad decision making where, you know, if you're a founder and you're not in control, you just have to keep focused and always grow the business and do the right thing by the clients and shareholders and so forth, and not that you feel that you've bought a fortress around yourself.

我认为这对任何正在创业的人来说都是一个很好的思考教训。

I think that's a great lesson for anyone who's building a business in how to think.

归根结底，你知道吗，ICE现在是一个非常成功的企业。

At the end of the day, you know, ICE is now an incredibly successful business.

它是全球排名前两位的交易所之一。

It's in the top two exchange businesses in the world.

人们可能不认识你。

People may not know you.

还有纽约证券交易所，你们在全球一些非常重要的能源市场上占据主导地位。

And the New York Stock Exchange, you dominate energy markets in some of the very important energy markets around the world.

你们在全球的固定收益、大宗商品以及股票市场上都拥有非常重要的衍生品头寸。

You've got very important derivative positions in fixed income and markets and commodity markets around the world, and, of course, equity markets around the world.

所以这是一段不可思议的旅程。

So it's been an incredible journey.

但是，当我看到你们的业务和你们所做的，与世界上其他传统的交易所或证券交易所和衍生品交易所相比，你们看待业务的方式与竞争对手截然不同，而且你们常常在别人看不到机会的时候看到商机。

But when I look at your business and what you do compared to other traditional, let's call them exchanges or stock exchanges and derivative exchanges around the world, you know, you view the business quite differently to your competitors, and you see business opportunities often when others don't see them.

如果今天你能向听众们介绍一下，你们如何看待将模拟流程转变为数字流程的机会，然后在转变为数字流程后创建一个交易所或市场来进行交易，那就太好了。

It would be great if you could outline for the listeners today how you see the opportunity for sort of transforming analog processes to digital processes, and then create an exchange or a marketplace once you transform them into a digital process to undertake transactions.

然后，你们从那个交易所获得数据，你们收集数据，然后将这些信息数字化。

And then the data that you get from that exchange, you collect the data and then you digitalize that information.

你们如何看待数字化和其中的机会？

How do you see the digitalization and opportunities?

这一切是已经结束了，还是还没有结束？

Is this all over or or is this not over at the moment?

有意思的是，你之前的问题让我讲了我的经历，而这其实正好回答了你的问题。

Interestingly, you elicited from your earlier question my history, and really, it's the answer to your question.

我一开始并不知道怎么创办交易所，直到我们组建了一个财团，大家齐心协力，一起把业务做起来。

I didn't know how to start an exchange until we put together a consortium that all jumped in the pool together to start the business together.

然后我意识到，关键在于网络。

And I realized that it was about the network.

关键在于那13个人同意互相连接，这才让公司有了价值。

It was about the 13 people that had agreed to connect to one another that made the company valuable.

在那之前，这只是一个能把人们连接起来的伟大技术。

Up until that moment, it was a great technology capable of hooking people together.

但光有技术并不足以吸引人们。

But the technology wasn't enough to attract the people.

真正起作用的是，网络从一个核心团队开始，大家聚在一起。

It was the fact that the network started with a core group that all came together.

所以，在我们所在的业务中，我一直在寻找具有网络效应的业务。

And so what I have done in the businesses that we're in is I look for businesses that have a network effect.

我这么说是什么意思呢？

And what do I mean by that?

我的意思是，每加入一个新用户，网络对已有用户的价值就更大。

I mean that for every new participant that joins the network, it becomes more valuable to the people that are already on the network.

所以你的产品对现有客户群来说会越来越有价值。

So your product is constantly becoming more valuable to the customer base that you already have.

换句话说，用户粘性会变得很强。

In other words, it becomes very sticky.

其次，我们寻找那种内容，一旦放到网络上，就可以反复卖给网络上的每个人很多次。

And secondly, we look for content, that if you put that content on the network, you can sell that same content many, many times over to everybody on the network.

所以是一次制作，多次销售。

So build it once and sell it many times.

这就是让业务能够持续增长的原因。

And that is what allows the business to compound.

你提到的这个业务之所以能成功并持续增长，其实是因为网络不断壮大，越来越大，价值也越来越高。

The success that you mentioned of this business that's compounding is really the ever growing network that continues to become bigger and bigger and more and more valuable.

这就是亚马逊的价值所在。

It is what makes Amazon valuable.

这就是奈飞的价值所在。

It is what makes Netflix valuable.

这就是脸书的价值所在。

It is what makes Facebook valuable.

这次科技繁荣中创造巨大价值的公司都是网络型公司。

The great value creation companies of this particular technology boom are network companies.

杰夫，你这么说可能把我们看企业时的一些秘诀给透露出来了。

And Jeff, you may be giving some people some secrets away of what we kind of look for if you look at businesses.

就是网络的特性，它会形成强烈的自我强化效应。

Just the nature of networks where they become strongly reinforcing.

你同不同意，一旦这些网络建立起来，在你所在的细分市场里，往往会出现赢家通吃或者赢家拿走大部分的局面？还是说你觉得你的领域不是这样？

Would you agree that once they're established, these sort of segments of where you create these powerful networks in that segment market segment, it becomes a winner takes most or a winner takes all situation often when that happens, or would you not agree that happens in your space?

我确实认为一开始会有这种现象。

I do think that that is the phenomena initially.

换句话说，Facebook活了下来，而Myspace没有。

In other words, Facebook survived and Myspace didn't.

但我个人认为，现在有机会打造一个Myspace。

But I personally believe that there's an opportunity to build a MySpace right now.

因为我不认为这些伟大的网络企业所占据的高位对竞争对手来说是不可逾越的。

Because I don't think that the perch that these great network businesses sit on are insurmountable to the competitors.

你提到过，我的一些拥有强大网络的竞争对手并没有真正增加新内容，也没有真正吸引新消费者。

You had mentioned that some of my competitors who have great networks have not really added new content, have not really added new consumers.

他们没有让网络变得更有价值。

They haven't made the network more valuable.

它有价值，而且处于一种停滞状态，但他们没有足够的创新来继续提升其价值，这对我来说意味着，一个初创公司或外来者如果带来更有趣的内容，就能把它夺走。

It's valuable, and it has kind of a stasis, but they're not innovating enough to continue to make it more valuable, which to me means that a startup or an interloper who comes along and creates more interesting content can take it away.

换句话说，哈米什，你我都年纪够大，经历过从广播电视到有线电视的转变，现在我们看到它转向流媒体，以及Netflix的出现。

In other words, and I lived Hamish, you and I are old enough to have lived through the move from broadcast television to cable television, and now we see it going to streaming and the advent of Netflix.

技术可以创造下一个网络。

Technology can create the next network.

而且，那些在广播电视时代规模很大的公司，没有理由不成为大型流媒体公司。

And there's no reason that the companies that were big in broadcast when it was over the air shouldn't be the big streaming companies.

但是很多没有跟上技术发展步伐的人就被甩在了后面。

But a lot of people that didn't continue to follow the technology curve got left behind.

所以我看着一些大型网络公司，包括我们自己的，我在想，是什么颠覆性的力量会把它从宝座上拉下来？

And so I look at some of the big network companies, including our own, and I'm saying, what is the disruptive force that's gonna knock it off its perch?

所以这让我们保持动力，不断创新，因为我觉得如果我们不这样做，我们的地位并不是特别稳固。

And so that keeps us motivated to constantly be innovating because I don't think the position we're in is particularly privileged if we're not doing that.

在这一切背后，杰夫，听起来你是杰夫·贝佐斯的追随者和粉丝。

And underneath that, Jeff, it sounds like you're a follower and a fan of Jeff Bezos.

你用了像“停滞”这样的词，听起来你想保持那种“第一天”的心态，如果你不持续创新，不持续改进网络，

Using the words like stasis, it sounds like you wanna keep that day one mentality that if you don't keep innovating, you don't keep improving the network.

最终，变化总会发生。

At the end of the day, there will be a change that happens.

如果你不持续创新，不为网络增加价值，你的能源业务就会走下坡路。

Your energy business will go into decline if you don't keep innovating and adding value to that network.

对。

Yeah.

我还想说，我之前提到过，当我遇到一个想保持公司控制权的创业者时，我总是持怀疑态度。

I would also just say that I earlier said that I'm always skeptical when I meet an entrepreneur that wants to keep control of their company.

我想我们刚才谈到了很多优秀的公司，表现最好的公司，那些创业者确实保持了控制权。

And I think we just talked about a number of the best companies, the best performing companies where those entrepreneurs did keep control.

所以，顺便说一句，我认为不管他们在那些公司拥有多少股权，股东们都会很高兴让那些CEO继续留在公司。

So by the way, I think had they regardless of what ownership stake they would have had in those companies, the shareholders would have been thrilled to keep those CEOs attached to the companies.

但当然，试图保持控制权并不是公司的负面因素。

But it's certainly not the case that trying to keep control is a negative for a company.

我想你说的重点是，杰夫没有保留控制权。

And I think the point you're making is Jeff didn't retain control.

他和史蒂夫·乔布斯在这方面几乎是独一无二的。

He's kind of him and Steve Jobs are almost unique in that regard.

也许我们可以谈谈业务的数据方面，因为很明显，你有一个交易市场，所以越来越多的用户加入那个网络。

Maybe we could just talk about the data side of the business here because, obviously, you've got a transacting marketplace so you get more and more users to that network.

这就变成了自我实现。

It becomes self fulfilling.

但利用数据的能力，人们常说数据是二十一世纪的石油。

But the ability then to use the data people are regarding or they call data the oil of the twenty first century.

数据对你的商业模式有多重要？

How important is sort of data to your business model?

而且，显然，这是经常性收入，但也是网络本身中一个有价值的组成部分。

And then, obviously, it's recurring revenue, but as a valuable piece in the network itself.

对。

Yeah.

它极其有价值。

It's incredibly valuable.

一方面，它是你可以放到网络上的内容，网络上的每个人都可以消化。

For one thing, it is the content that you can put on the network that everyone who's on the network can digest.

但退一步说，我现在看看自己的行为。

But just stepping back, I just look at my own behavior now.

就在几年前，我还会拿起电话订机票或订酒店房间。

And it was only a few years ago that I would pick up the telephone to make an airline reservation or book a hotel room.

而今天，我们有各种应用来做这些原本琐碎的事情。

And today, we have all these apps that are allowing us to do these otherwise menial tasks.

但在背后，有海量的数据和信息在驱动我们的决策，以及我们沟通对象给我们的回应。

But behind that is an unbelievable amount of data and information that drives our decision making and then the response that whoever we're communicating with gives us.

所以，在我创建这家公司的过程中，我发现自己消费的数据越来越多。

And so I just saw and as we were building this company that I was consuming more and more data.

在我的业务中，我们到了一个阶段，因为人们要管理风险、做交易决策，或者办理抵押贷款——这又是一个重大的财务决策——人们天生就想要大量信息。

And we're at a point in my business where people will, because they're managing risk and making decisions about trades, or entering into a mortgage, which is just another large financial decision, people by nature want to have a lot of information.

从我们这里购买的人，会尽可能多地获取原始信息。

And people who are buying from us just as much raw information as they can get.

他们拿到这些原始信息后，会利用它们做各种事情。

And they're taking that raw information and doing things with it.

我倾向于认为，随着时间的推移，下一个加入网络的消费者不会想要原始信息。

I tend to believe that over time, the next consumer that will join the network isn't gonna want raw information.

他们会希望我们把原始信息提炼成一种能让他们做决定的形式。

They're gonna want us to distill the raw information into a format that allows them to make a decision.

换句话说，就是把信息喂到我嘴边，告诉我需要什么。

In other words, spoon feed the information to me, tell me what I need.

我不太在乎你用来构建那个决定的原材料是什么。

And I don't really care about what the raw materials are that you use to construct that decision.

所以我认为，消化原始数据的算法，以及那些让你点一下按钮就能订餐厅、而不用看到背后数据和信息的用户友好型应用，才是未来的趋势。

And so I do think that algorithms that are digesting raw data and consumer friendly apps that allow you to click a button and make a restaurant reservation without actually having to see the data and information behind it, that's the wave of the future.

要让这些应用成为好的决策者，就需要越来越多的信息来让它们越来越准确。

And so getting those apps to be good decision makers will take more and more and more information to become more and more accurate.

所以原始数据仍然很重要。

And so the raw data will still be important.

但我确实认为，最终会是应用本身成为下一波浪潮。

But I do think that ultimately it's the applications themselves that are gonna be the next wave.

而且在很多行业里，它们已经是下一波浪潮了。

And in in many industries, they are the next wave.

也许我可以换个方向聊聊。

Maybe I could move in a slightly different direction.

这其实关乎发现新机会，把传统市场转变成数字市场。

And this is really about identifying new opportunities of transforming analog markets into digital markets.

那么，你怎么去发现一个适合你技能的、还处于传统模式的市场呢？

So how do you go about identifying a market that's analog that may be appropriate for your skill sets?

是看规模吗？

Is it scale?

还是看获取数据的难易程度？

Is it ease of getting the data?

或者看它是否复杂？

Is it complex?

你一般会关注哪些方面？

What are the things you look for?

你的竞争对手好像没人像你这样进军抵押贷款市场，这挺独特的。

Your competitors aren't sort of no one else has gone after the mortgage market like you have, which makes it quite unique.

我们对你在做的事情感到非常兴奋。

We couldn't be more excited about what you're doing there.

但你是怎么在心态上考虑这些模拟市场的，并且认为这里真的有发挥你技能的机会呢？

But how do you go about as a mindset to even think about these sort of analog markets and there could be a real opportunity to bring your skills to bear here?

这有点像两步走的过程。

It's kind of a two step process.

我觉得我们公司有一件事做得特别好，那就是运营一个网络。而且应该说，我们运营的纽约证券交易所的网络，和帮助消费者获得抵押贷款的网络并没有太大区别。

I think my company does one thing really well, which is to operate a network, which is largely and should just say the network that we operate that runs the New York Stock Exchange is not that much different than the network we operate to help a consumer get a mortgage.

本质上都是一个安全、互联的环境。

It's essentially a secure, connected environment.

核心是一个数据库。

And at the core of it is a database.

数据和信息进出这个数据库，经常被处理、清洗，或者围绕这些数据做其他操作，让它们在离开数据库时比进入时更有价值。

And data and information are coming in and going out of that database and often being manipulated or cleansed or some other processes around that data to make it more valuable as it exits the database than when it came in.

但本质上就是管理数据和信息进出数据库。

But it's essentially marshaling data and information in and out of a database.

所以我们从这样一个前提开始：哪里有大量的信息，如果我们把它们移入移出数据库，那就是我们的核心竞争力。

So we start with the premise of where are there vast pieces of information that if we moved them in and out of a database would be our core competence.

这就会引导你思考，哪里可能存在一个网络？

And that sort of leads you to, okay, where could there be a network?

或者哪里已经有一个现成的网络，我们可以将其自动化？

Or where is there a network that already exists that we could automate?

但我们是从思考网络开始的。

But we start thinking about the network.

如果你能找到一个机会，业务仍然是模拟的，而我们带来的网络是数字的，你就会拥有巨大的顺风。

If you can find an opportunity where the business is still analog, and the network we're bringing is digital, you have this massive tailwind.

我不确定你需要它。

I'm not sure you need it.

我的意思是，我真的相信有人可以创建亚马逊的竞争对手。

I mean, I really do believe that somebody could create a competitor to Amazon.

而且我相信有人可以创建奈飞的竞争对手。

And I believe somebody could create a competitor to Netflix.

而且我相信有人能创造出Facebook的竞争对手。

And I believe somebody can create a competitor to Facebook.

换句话说，已经数字化的市场，竞争起来可不容易。

In other words, markets that are already digitized, wouldn't be easy.

但我觉得你确实可以进入一个数字化的领域并具备竞争力。

But I think you can already go into a digital place and be competitive.

但如果你还身处模拟市场，再加上数字化的优势，那顺风之势简直势不可挡。

But if you have the added virtue of being in an analog marketplace, you could take digital, the tailwind is just so overwhelming.

采用率可以迅速提升。

The adoption rate can pick up.

你的1.0版本不必特别完美，因为你的竞争对手是传真机、纸和羽毛笔。

Your version one point o doesn't have to be particularly perfect, because you're competing against something that's a fax machine and a piece of paper and a quill pen.

所以你对1.0版本可以稍微宽容一些。

And so you could be a little more forgiving on version one point o.

但如果你要挑战Facebook，我建议你的1.0版本必须相当出色。

If you're gonna take on Facebook, your version one point o, I would suggest has to be pretty darn good.

所以我们两者都看重，我们寻找那种有模拟基础设施的网络。

So we look for both, we look for a network where there's sort of an analog infrastructure.

这就是我的工作。

And that's my job.

我的意思是，作为股东，你付我薪水就是让我思考这些事情的。

I mean, that's really what you pay me for as a shareholder is to be thinking about those things.

在人生中，成功往往一半在于识别机会，然后采取行动抓住它。

And as you go through life, half the time success is about recognizing the opportunity and then taking the action to seize it.

而这正是我谋生的方式。

And that's just what I do for a living.

也许，杰夫，我们可以继续往下聊，因为我认为你在美国抵押贷款市场的做法是一个很好的例子，你看到了别人没有看到的机会。

And maybe, Jeff, we could just move on because I think it is such a great example of where you've seen opportunity where where the others haven't is what you're doing in The US mortgage market.

你在这里整合了很多环节。

You've put a number of pieces together here.

显然，发起抵押贷款并完成交割涉及很多交易对手，包括律师、经纪人、房地产经纪人和银行。

Obviously, it's originating a mortgage and completing and closing a mortgage has many counterparties involved, has lawyers, has brokers, has real estate agents, has banks.

这里面有各种不同的参与者。

It has all these different users there.

成本非常高。

It's very expensive.

而且非常依赖人工。

It's very manual.

那你当时是怎么看到这个机会，想在这里创建一个交易所的呢？

So how did you see the opportunity there to try and create an exchange here?

你觉得这个机会有多大？你真的能在这个市场里建立起这样一个网络吗？

And how large do you think this sort of opportunity could be, and could you really create this network here in this market?

对。

Yeah.

我在运营ICE这家初创公司时学到的一点是，利率是大量交易的驱动因素。

One of the things I learned by running ICE as an early stage company is that interest rates are a driver of a tremendous amount of trading.

有主权债券的直接交易，在美国有国债期货，还有外汇交易、货币交易，但利率决定资金流向的地方，比如所谓的套利交易，还有股票本身——你参与其中，股票既有投资资本的成本，也有推动股票的通货膨胀环境，这些都包含利率因素。

There's the outright trading of sovereign debt, treasury futures here in The US, there is foreign exchange trading, currency trading, but where interest rates determine the flow of money with the so called carry trade, stocks themselves, which you are involved with that have an interest component both in your cost of capital to invest in stocks, but also the inflation environment which propels stocks.

所以我当时就有种直觉，利率是很多市场的核心。

So I just had this instinct that interest rates were at the core of so many markets.

我就想，有哪些利率市场是我们应该关注的？

And I said, where are there some interest rate markets that we should be focused on?

在美国，我所在的地方，大多数人一生中最大的一笔交易就是买房。

And in The United States, where I'm located, the biggest single transaction that most couples or people will make in their life is the purchase of a home.

所以很明显，这是一个影响所有想拥有住房的美国工薪消费者的利率市场。

And so it just seems so obvious that here's an interest rate market that affects any working consumer in The United States that wants to have homeownership.

说实话，连租房的人也会受到房贷成本的影响。

And honestly, you could say even renters are impacted by the cost of mortgage.

所以感觉这个市场完全没被开发。

So it just felt like it's completely untapped.

杰夫，也许你可以给我们的听众解释一下房贷流程是怎样的，它有多传统，以及你正在整合哪些部分来实现数字化。

And maybe, Jeff, you could just explain for our listeners what the mortgage process is and how analog it is and the components that you're bringing together to digitalize here.

好的。

Yeah.

当我们开始拆解一个房主办理抵押贷款的过程时，我们看到了一个明显的网络结构。

As we started breaking down the process of an individual homeowner who enters into a mortgage transaction, we saw the obvious makings of a network.

显然有借款人和贷款人。

There's clearly the borrower and the lender.

但当你深入这个过程，可能还涉及房屋的出售。

But when you peel back the process, there's the sale of a home potentially.

所以有买方经纪人和卖方经纪人，他们间接参与这笔交易。

And so there's a buyer's broker and a seller's broker that are tangentially involved in the transaction.

人们需要收集收入数据，以便向贷款人核实。

People need to gather their income data to verify that for the lender.

所以有雇主，通常人们还有律师，律师通常根据法律要求，需要公证人。

And so there's an employer, often people have a lawyer, often the lawyer requires and depending on the laws requires that there be a notary.

贷款人可能想要保险证明，就像你之前提到的。

The lender may want proof of insurance, as you brought up earlier.

我们开始看到，当购买房屋并办理抵押贷款时，还会发生其他事情。

We started to see that when a home is purchased and a mortgage is entered into, other things happen.

房主可能想去买窗帘、新沙发。

The homeowner may want to go buy curtains, a new sofa.

他们可能需要园丁或草坪养护服务。

They may need a gardener or lawn care.

他们可能决定在搬进去之前加建一间卧室。

They may decide to add on to the house to add another bedroom before they move in.

这些交易涉及的人太多了，他们都不在任何网络上，可能都是通过电话和黄页或电话簿联系起来的。

There are so many people that are touched by these transactions, none of which are together on any kind of network, all of which are probably linked by telephone calls and the yellow pages or the phone directory here.

我们当时就想，哇，如果你能让所有参与交易的人通过数字方式传递信息，那将是一个惊人的网络。

We just said, wow, there's an amazing network if you could get everyone around that transaction to convey information digitally.

你能想到的第一件事就是，你不仅能降低交易成本，还能压缩决策所涉及的时间。

And the first thing you can imagine is just how you would not only lower the cost of the transaction, but compress the time that's involved in the decision making.

在美国，如果你能在三十天内完成一笔抵押贷款，那就算幸运了。

In The United States, if you could get a mortgage done in thirty days, you'd be lucky.

我的同事奥顿，哈米什认识他，因为他是我们的投资者关系主管，最近在美国的一家大银行再融资了他的抵押贷款。

My colleague, Orton, who Hamish, know, because he's our Investor Relations head, recently refinanced his mortgage with one of the major banks in The United States.

他们让他把银行对账单的副本发过去。

And they asked him if he could send over a copy of his bank statements.

他说，为什么要在你的银行开户？

And he said, why bank at your bank?

他们说，我知道，但如果你能复印一份寄给我，会比我去银行内部查你的账户容易得多。

And they said, I know, but it would be so much easier if you would just make a copy and send them to me as opposed to me trying to go through the internal machinations of the bank to look up your account.

这就是目前行业的现状。

That's the state of the industry right now.

所以我们觉得，哇，这真是个绝佳的机会。

So we just said, boy, what an amazing opportunity.

让我们看看能不能把它拆解开来，把网络的基础搭建起来。

And let's see if we can chip this apart and get the underpinnings of a network together.

那么，简单说说，你具体整合了哪些部分？

So just briefly, maybe, what are the components you put together?

你买下了这个拼图游戏中的好几块不同的碎片，这相当独特。

You bought a number of different pieces of the jigsaw puzzle here that's pretty unique.

你具体是怎么把这些整合起来，做成这门生意的？

What have you put together to create this business?

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗，我这些年还学到一件事，就是在一个网络里，把买家和卖家、两个有交易意向的人撮合到一起，其实是这个网络做的最没价值的事情。

You know, what's interesting is that another thing that I've learned over time is that the matching of a buyer and a seller, the matching of two people on a network who have transactional interests is the least valuable thing that the network does.

有意思的是，我刚进入交易所这个领域的时候，交易所还是那种公开喊价的模式，人们穿着滑稽的夹克，站在那里打手势。

Oddly, when I got into the exchange world, exchanges were open outcry exchanges with guys who wore funny jackets, and stood around and flashed hand signals.

交易室里，也许你们公司也有，人们聚在一起，有各种个性，吵吵嚷嚷的。

And trading rooms, maybe even in your firm, are places where people gather and there's personalities and there's noise and cacophony around that.

很多人觉得那就是价值所在，因为那是看得见的东西，看起来像个网络。

And a lot of people think that that's the value because it's the visual thing that kind of looks like a network.

它确实是个网络，但实际上，在网上撮合买家和卖家是最容易的事情之一。

And it is a network, but the reality is matching a buyer and seller is one of the easiest things you can do online.

我的意思是，只需要两个人就够了。

I mean, all it takes is two people.

如果他们能找到彼此，他们就会说，是的，我想卖。

And if they can find each other, they just say, yeah, I want to sell.

哦，我想买。

Oh, I want to buy.

好吧，那很简单。

Okay, well, that's easy.

顺便说一句，亚马逊，你想在亚马逊上买一盒笔，这是一笔很棒的交易，但这是亚马逊做的最没有价值的事情。

And I would say, by the way, Amazon, you wanting to go buy a box of pens on Amazon is an amazing transaction, but it's the least valuable thing Amazon does.

你可以在互联网上很多地方找到一盒笔。

You can find box of pens many places on the internet.

真正让它有粘性的是背后所有的物流环节。

It's all the logistical things behind that really make it sticky.

所以我们开始做抵押贷款时，思考的是痛点在哪里，以及什么能让网络真正有粘性。

And so we started in mortgage by thinking about where is the pain point and what would make the network really sticky.

我们从抵押贷款流程的后端开始，也就是在美国完成抵押贷款后，你实际上必须向当地登记处备案。

And we started at the back end of the mortgage process, which is once you have consummated a mortgage in The United States, you actually have to file it with the local registrar.

这通常是通过把一大叠纸质文件放进联邦快递信封里寄出去来完成的。

And that normally is done by putting a big chunk of paper in a Federal Express envelope and sending it in.

我们发现了一家正在将这一过程自动化的公司，意识到它的价值后，就把它收购了。

And we found a company that was automating that, and we realized how valuable that was, and we acquired it.

另外，我还收购了一家叫MERS的公司，这名字真不怎么样，但它代表的是抵押贷款电子登记系统，在美国，所有抵押贷款都会得到一个MIN号码，M I N，也就是抵押贷款识别号。

Separately, I acquired a business called MERS, which is a terrible name, but it stands for the Mortgage Electronic Registry Service, where in The United States, all mortgages are given a MIN number, M I N, which stands for a mortgage identification number.

MERS提供MIN号码，这意味着在美国登记的每一笔抵押贷款都会到MERS这里来获取一个ID号。

And MERS provides the MIN, which means every mortgage that's registered in The United States comes to MERS and gets an ID number.

而且费用非常低。

And it's a very nominal cost.

这个概念很简单，业务也很简单。

And it's a simple concept and a very simple business.

但几乎美国所有的抵押贷款都会接触到这家公司。

But almost every mortgage in The United States touches that company.

我们当时想，天哪，如果我们能把MERS——每笔抵押贷款都要来获取ID号的地方——和一个后端系统连接起来，而每笔抵押贷款又必须在当地登记处备案，想想这对市场来说会有多大的价值。

And we said, my God, if we could take MERS where every mortgage is coming to get an ID number, and hook it to a back end where every mortgage has to be filed with a local registrant, think of how valuable that would be to the marketplace.

而且如果你有了这个，就很容易吸引买家和卖家，也就是前端。

And then if you have that, it's pretty easy to attract the buyer and a seller, the front end.

同样，在交易所里，我一开始其实是试着匹配买家和卖家，但很快意识到这并不那么有粘性，也不那么独特。

Similarly, in an exchange, I started actually by trying to match a buyer and a seller, but quickly realized that that was not that sticky, and it wasn't that unique.

然后我们转向了交易的清算和结算，我经常告诉早期科技领域的人，我们一开始是建了一个类似eBay的东西，但我们意识到价值在PayPal和结算上。

And we went into clearing and settlement of trades, which is I always tell people that we're early tech people that we started by building something that was like eBay, but we realized that the value was in PayPal, and the settlement.

所以这就是后端管道。

And so it's the back end plumbing.

这些业务的履约方面才是对终端用户真正增值的地方。

It's the fulfillment side of these businesses that is real value added to the end user.

如果你能一键消除所有物流麻烦，那么买家和卖家就会愿意来找对方。

If you make all the logistics go away with a mouse click, then buyers and sellers will wanna come find each other.

这基本上就是我们正在做的事情的逻辑，也是我们如何从抵押贷款开始的。

And that's essentially the logic of what we're doing and how we started in mortgage.

我想告诉你的是，我们目前已经组装起来的，大部分是通过收购这些零碎部分然后拼接在一起的。

And I would just say to you what we have is have assembled so far, much of which was by acquiring these bits and bobs and then stitching them together.