Drive to Work #22 - 集换式卡牌游戏类型

好的。

Okay.

我现在正开进车道。

I'm pulling on the driveway.

大家都知道这意味着什么。

We all know what that means.

又到了开车去上班的时候了。

It's time for another drive to work.

好的。

Okay.

所以今天，上次我无意中做了个三部曲。

So today, last time I did my unintentional three parter.

所以我决定今天，我要有意识地做个三部曲，虽然有点不一样。

So I decided today, I was gonna do a kind of intentional three parter, although a little bit different.

我经常提到，当理查德·加菲尔德创造这个游戏时，我常说他有三大发明。

I often talk about something that when when Richard Garfield created the game, I often claimed that he had three great inventions.

万智牌是三个非常酷的想法的集大成者。

That magic was the culmination of three different really cool ideas.

我称之为“黄金三要素”。

And I call that the golden trifecta.

这是我给它起的名字。

It's my name for it.

黄金三要素由三部分组成。

So the golden trifecta is made up of three things.

第一是集换式卡牌游戏的概念。

First is the concept of a trading card game.

第二是颜色轮的想法。

Second is the idea of the color wheel.

第三是法术力系统。

And the third was the mana system.

这些都非常重要。

All of those are very important.

这些想法太重要了，所以我决定为每一个都专门做一期播客。

So important that I decided to dedicate a whole podcast to each one of the three.

所以这算是一个非正式的三部曲吧，不过每一期也都能独立成篇。

So as a sort of informal three p three part thing, I mean, one will stand on its own.

今天呢，我先从集换式卡牌游戏的起源讲起。

So today, I'm gonna start with the beginning of the the trading card game.

我想聊聊理查德·加菲尔德到底提出了什么，以及他需要解决的那些问题。

So I wanna talk about what exactly Richard Garfield came up with and sort of walk through a lot of the problems he had to solve.

因为我觉得，如果你真想理解万智牌的设计，或者说实话，任何集换式卡牌游戏的设计，你就得先深入了解集换式卡牌游戏本身，明白它们是怎么运作的。

Because I I think if you really wanna understand design of magic or, to be honest, of any trading card game, you gotta explore trading card games themselves and understand, you know, kinda what makes them tick.

那我们就从头说起吧。

So let's start from the very beginning.

我觉得集换式卡牌已经存在很久了。

So I think trading cards have existed for a long time.

最有名的集换式卡牌大概就是棒球卡了。

I mean, most famous trading cards probably are baseball cards.

对于不住在美国的人来说，棒球是一项非常受欢迎的美国运动。

For those that don't live in America, baseball, a very popular American sport.

所有棒球运动员都会被印在卡片上。

All the players of baseball get put onto cards.

卡片正面是他们的照片，背面通常是关于他们水平的数据统计。

The cards have their picture on the front, usually on the back are statistics about how good they are.

总之，棒球卡一直非常受欢迎。

So anyway, baseball cards have been very popular.

在棒球卡之后，又出现了其他运动项目的卡片。

And then off of baseball cards, there were other sports cards that were made.

后来，还出现了流行文化的收藏卡，比如你可以收集《星际迷航》或《星球大战》等你喜欢的影视作品里所有角色的卡片。

And then eventually, there started being trading cards of of pop culture, you know, of, you know, pick your favorite of Star Trek or Star Wars or whatever your the pop culture thing is where you can collect cards that represent all the characters in a certain show or something.

所以，收藏卡已经存在了一段时间。

And so trading cards existed for a while.

我觉得理查德喜欢一个游戏的想法，用他自己的话说，就是“比盒子更大”的游戏。

And I think what Richard is Richard liked the idea of a game that he this is his words, that was bigger than the box.

这意味着，通常你玩一个游戏时，大家的预期是一致的。

And what that means is that normally when you play a game, there is a consistency of expectation.

比如，我常玩的大富翁。

For example, my go to monopoly.

所以当你打开大富翁棋盘时，我会看到40个格子，别人打开时看到的也是同样的40个格子。

So when you open a monopoly board, I will see 40 squares on monopoly board, the exact same 40 squares that somebody else will see when they open a monopoly board.

假设是传统的大富翁，不是那种可以自己填的空的大富翁。

Assuming traditional monopoly and not like, you know, fill in the blank monopoly.

所以理查德想要的不同之处在于，他说，想象一下我打开一个游戏，我看到我有的东西，但我看到的和你打开你得到的东西时看到的不一样。

So the difference he for what Richard wanted is, he said, imagine I open a game and I see what I have, but what I see is not what you see when you open up what you get.

理查德对这个想法很着迷，我的意思是，理查德喜欢所谓的“元游戏”这个概念。

And Richard was fascinated by the idea that that I mean, Richard loves the concept of what's called a metagame.

我不是指那种元游戏。

Now I don't mean the metagame.

大多数人用的定义是试图理解比赛中在玩什么。

The definition most people use is trying to understand what is being played at a tournament.

我觉得理查德在研发部门用的定义有点不一样。

I think Richard has slightly different definition that we use in r and d.

他说的元游戏指的是游戏周围的所有东西。比如说，你玩万智牌的时候，你谈论万智牌，但你真正花在玩牌上的时间有多少呢？

And what that metagame means is all the things that surround the game, you know, that the game I mean, for example, when you play magic, you talk about playing magic, how much of the time that you are involved with magic are you physically actually playing the game?

其实只占很小一部分。

A tiny portion.

大部分时间你是在想牌组、组牌、看相关文章，或者跟别人聊牌。

You know, a lot of magic is thinking about magic and building decks and reading about it and talking to people about it.

万智牌的体验远远超出了实际玩牌本身。

A lot of the experience of magic goes way beyond the actual physical playing of the game.

理查德·费尔德曼认为，这就是元游戏。

And that was Richard Feldman, is the metagame.

要打造一个强大的元游戏，关键是要让任何一个人都无法掌握全部信息。

And part of making a robust metagame is making it such that no one person had all the information.

那怎么让大家在更大范围内聚在一起呢？就是做一个比任何单个人都大的游戏。

How do you force people to sort of get together in a larger sense is, oh, we'll make a game that's bigger than any one person.

这就是《万智牌》当初的设计初衷。

And that's what Magic was set out to be.

我觉得理查德转向集换式卡牌，是因为他需要满足几个条件。

Now I think Richard went to trading cards because what he needed was well, a couple things.

首先，当理查德·加菲尔德第一次去找威世智的时候，我不确定我有没有讲过这个故事，反正就是理查德·加菲尔德和另一位叫迈克·戴维斯的人。

One is so when Richard Garfield first went to Wizards of the Coast I don't know if I've told this story, but so Richard Garfield and, again, a man named Mike Davis.

也就是迈克尔·戴维斯，简称JMD汤姆。

So j Michael Davis, j JMD Tom.

可能之前没讲过这个故事。

May have not told the story before.

总之，他们去推销理查德做的一款叫《机器人大乱斗》的游戏。

Anyway, they went to sell a game that Richard had made called Robo Rally.

如果你没玩过《机器人大乱斗》，我们后来在万智牌那边把它发行了。

Now if you've never played Robo Rally, we lay Wizards later put it out.

我觉得这游戏不是伊芙琳·海尔做的，那是万智牌那边的做法。

I think it's not made by Evelyn Hale, which Wizards does.

机器人拉力赛的玩法是，你是一个机器人，你拿到一些卡片来编程你的移动，然后你必须预先编程你的移动。

And the idea of Robo Rally is you're a robot and you get cards that that program your movements, and then you have to preprogram your movements.

但是每个人都在预先编程自己的移动，所以冲突会导致一些你意想不到的事情发生。而且还有传送带和各种东西，因为你是在工厂的地板上。

But everybody's preprogramming their movements, so conflicts can cause things to happen that you don't Plus there's conveyor belts and all sorts that you're on a factory floor.

而且你自己也可能猜错一些事情。

And so you also yourself can misguess something.

比如，你必须考虑到这个会让你旋转，这个会让你移动，所以乐趣的一部分就是试图弄清楚你会到达哪里，然后还有与其他机器人的互动，它们会干扰你，把你搞乱。

Like like you have to take into account that this will rotate you and this will move you and so part of the fun is trying to figure out getting where you're gonna get and then there's interactions as other robots interfere with you and then mess you up.

所以理查德和迈克那天来是想卖机器人拉力赛，因为那是个有趣的游戏。

So Richard and Mike had came that day to sell Robo Rally because the it's a fun game.

问题是，他们向彼得·阿特金森推销，他当时是威世智的创始人之一，也是当时的CEO。

The problem was so they pitched to Peter Atkinson who was then one of the founders and CEO at the time of of Wizards.

要知道，当时威世智是一家非常小的公司。

And mind you, at the time, Wizards was a very small company.

他们当时在出版角色扮演游戏。

They were putting out role playing games.

我觉得塔利桑塔可能是他们当时最火的一款游戏。

I think Talislanta maybe was their biggest one.

总之，他们当时就是一家小型角色扮演游戏公司。

Anyway, they were a small role playing game company.

但理查德和迈克到处跑，见人就推销他们的游戏。

But Richard and Mike were just going all over asking everybody to try to sell their game.

问题在于，机器人拉力赛的配件太多了。

And so the problem was that Roborall had too many pieces to it.

也就是说，看一款游戏的时候，所谓的“商品成本”就是实际生产它要花多少钱。

Meaning, when you look at games, call cost of goods is how much does it actually cost to produce it?

而且，配件越多的东西，需要的投资就越大。

And that it it has it takes more investment to make things that have more pieces to it.

所以，你需要一家规模稍大的公司，才有足够的资金来垫付这些成本，因为你在卖出之前就得先付钱。

And so you need to a little bigger company to have the financial sort of outlay to be able to pay for that because you have to pay for it before you sell it.

所以，你得投入更多的钱才行。

And so the idea is you would have to put on a lot more money.

你知道，这是一家小公司，彼得就说，听我说。

It's a small company, you know, and Peter said, look.

我们就是……那个成本太高了，我们承受不了。

We just don't we we don't that's too much cost of goods.

那个游戏我们做不了。

We can't make that game.

我们现在公司规模不够大，做不了那个游戏。

We're not a big enough company right now to make that game.

然后他说，我想要的其实是这样的。

And so he said, here's what I'm looking for.

我想要的是纸质的、快速又便携的东西，因为你知道，彼得当时非常沉迷于《龙与地下城》这款角色扮演游戏。

I'm looking for something made out of paper that is fast and portable because, you know, I Peter was very into Dungeons and Dragons role playing game.

他说，我其实想找的是一款快速、小规模、便携的战斗游戏，可以在《龙与地下城》的间隙玩一玩。

He goes, what I would have kinda like to find is a fast little fight portable game you can play in between D and D sessions.

这就是彼得当时提出的要求。

That's what Peter asked for.

理查德和我，我不知道理查德之前有没有玩过交易卡，但彼得说的条件之一就是，第一，必须是纸质的。

And Richard and I don't know if Richard had messed around with trading cards before, but part of the parameters of what Peter was saying was, number one, it had to be paper.

为什么是纸质的？

Why paper?

纸便宜。

Paper's cheap.

纸容易印刷。

Paper's easy to print on.

而且纸制品可以在一个地方完成。

And paper, all of it is done in one place.

很多时候，如果有很多组件，比如Roborelli，根据你制作机器人的方式，会有塑料或金属组件。

A lot of times, if you have a lot of components, for example, Roborelli has either plastic or metal components depending on you make the robots.

所以这些通常和棋盘或卡片的制作地点不同。

And so those usually are in a different place than where the the board would be made, you know, or maybe where the cards.

卡片和棋盘可能在纸制品厂制作，但塑料或金属部件则在另一个地方制作。

The cards and the board probably made in a paper place, but, like, the plastic or metal pieces are made in a different place.

所以这就需要你把不同的东西凑在一起，然后一起打印出来。

So that requires you to, you know, get together items from different things and can print them together.

全纸产品的好处是，你可以把它送到印刷厂，他们就能全部做出来。

The nice thing about an all paper product is you could send that to a printing press and they can make all of it.

你知道，他们可以制作卡片、包装，所有工序都能在一个地方完成，这样成本就低很多。

You know, they can make the cards, can make the wrapping, they can all of it can be done in one place and that's a lot cheaper.

所以早期，彼得主要是在跟理查德说，这是我们能做的范围，我们对这类东西感兴趣。

And so early on, a lot of what happened was Peter was trying to say to Richard, well, this is the means of what we can make and this is the kind of thing we're interested in.

理查德听了这些条件后，说，我有个主意。

Now Richard took those parameters and said I have an idea.

现在我不确定，这挺有意思的。

Now I don't know it's interesting.

我跟理查德聊过这个。

I've I've talked to Richard about this.

我不确定他之前有没有，我觉得他之前可能琢磨过一些想法。

I don't know whether or not he had I think he had messed around with ideas before.

我觉得他脑子里可能一直有个想法，就是把集换式卡牌游戏变成一款真正的桌游。

I think maybe in the back of his head, he had the idea of turning trading card games trading cards into a game.

顺便提一下，我记得我第一次听到“集换式卡牌游戏”这个词的时候，完全不知道它是什么意思。

Now I remember, by the way, when I first heard trading card game, I knew nothing than those words.

我当时心想，天哪。

I was like, oh my goodness.

因为我之前买过那种集换式卡牌。

Because I had I had bought trading cards.

我以前买过棒球卡。

I had bought baseball cards.

我也收集过各种各样的交易卡，当时就想，哇，太棒了。

I had bought different trading cards in my units and I'm like, oh, wow.

因为玩卡牌游戏真的挺有意思的。

Because trading card games are fun.

收集东西确实很有趣，但更吸引人的想法是：想象一下，这些卡片不再是棒球运动员的形象，而是变成了某种游戏里的卡牌。

It's fun to collect things, but like the idea that, oh, imagine those instead of being a baseball player, those were cards to a game.

真是让我大开眼界。

Blew my mind.

我当时就觉得，这太棒了，你知道吗。

I was like, that is awesome, you know.

那么，我们来聊聊理查德的想法，他想要一个比盒子更好的东西。

Now, let's talk about so Richard's idea was he wanted something better than the box.

交易卡让他能够创造一种体验，这种体验是随机的，你知道吗。

Trading cards allowed him to create an experience that was perceived and would be random, you know.

你会得到一定数量的卡牌。

You would get some number of cards.

而我觉得他当时就明白，我现在当然也明白，通过设置不同稀有度的卡牌，你可以控制某些东西出现的频率。

And the thing that that I guess he understood at the time and I understand now obviously is by having different rarities of cards, you can control how much certain things show up.

你无法控制谁看到什么，但你可以控制某样东西被看到的频率。

You don't control who sees what, but you control how often something gets seen.

而这最终成了一个非常重要的工具。

And that ends up being a very important tool.

不过，我觉得我有点说快了。

Although, I think I'm jumping ahead of myself.

好。

Okay.

在集换式卡牌游戏里，思路是这样的：好，我要设计一个游戏。

So in trading card games, the idea is, okay, I'm gonna make a game.

我把游戏拆成碎片，然后不让所有玩家都拿到全部碎片。

I'm gonna chop up the pieces and then not give all the pieces to all the players.

每个玩家只能拿到一部分碎片。

Each player will get some of the pieces.

好。

Okay.

这个想法非常棒。

Now, that is a very cool idea.

这个想法确实很酷，但有几个问题。

It was a very cool idea, but there are a couple problems.

那么第一个问题，我称之为“皇后问题”。

So problem number one is what I'll call the queen problem.

比如说你在设计国际象棋，打算把棋子拆开，然后不同的人拿到不同的棋子。

So let's say you're making the game of chess and you were gonna break up the pieces and peep the different people got different ones.

假设我开出了车、象和马，而你开出了两个皇后。

Well, let's say I open up a rook and a bishop and a and a knight, And you open up two queens.

那我怎么赢你？

How do I beat you?

你知道，皇后比我开出的任何棋子都强太多了。

You know, the queen's so much more powerful than anything I opened up.

所以理查德要面对的一个问题是，通常在一款游戏里，有强大的东西是没问题的，因为游戏是平衡的。

And so one of the problems Richard had to deal with is, normally in a game, it's okay to have powerful things because the game is balanced.

比如，皇后比车、象或者所有其他棋子都强。

For example, a queen is more powerful than a rook or a knight or all the pieces really.

但这没关系。

But that's okay.

每位玩家都只能拥有一枚皇后，而且开局时双方处于对称的位置。

Each player has access to one queen and they start in, you know, a mirrored version of the same place.

所以这样没问题。

So that's okay.

游戏在这里实现了平衡。

There it's balanced.

游戏本身就把控了平衡性。

The game balances it.

理查德面临的问题是，在集换式卡牌游戏中，该怎么做到平衡呢？

Richard's problem was a trading card game, well, how do you do the balance?

因为每个人拿到的牌都不一样。

You don't everyone isn't getting the same thing.

所以，当玩家能自由挑选自己使用的卡牌时，怎么维持平衡呢？

So how do you keep people when they can pick and choose what they play with?

又该怎么防止大家都只挑最强的牌来玩呢？

Well, how do you keep them from just playing the best cards?

答案一部分是，你确实没法平衡。

And the answer partly is you don't.

但另一部分是，好吧，有一些方法可以在几个方面帮助分散一下。

But partly is, okay, there's some ways to help spread things out in a couple ways.

所以他用了很多工具。

And so there are a bunch of tools he used.

一个是稀有度。

One was rarity.

稀有度的概念就是，虽然它们是随机的，但并不意味着你得到它们的数量是一样的，你懂的。

So the idea of rarity is just because they're random doesn't mean you get them in the same amount, you know.

比如说，如果我有一张非常强的卡，我把它做得越稀有，它出现的频率就越低。

So for example, if I have a very powerful card, if the rare I make it, the less often it shows up.

这样就能解决一些问题。

And so that solves some problems.

虽然它解决不了最大的问题，那就是，如果我开出了一张超级破坏平衡的卡，即使它很稀有，但我开到了而你没有，那怎么办。

Although, it doesn't solve the biggest problem which is, you know, well, what if I open up super broken card even if it's rare, but I do open up and you don't.

虽然稀有度确实能帮上忙，尤其是在限制赛里，但说实话，理查德一开始可能对限制赛有些想法，但那并不是他最初设计游戏时的主要动力。

Although rarity does allow us, especially for a limited play, although, to be fair, Richard started, I I I think he had some idea of limited, but that wasn't the driving force when he was making the game originally.

不过，我知道他心里确实有这个念头。

Although, I know he did have that in the back of his head.

现在，真正的关键来了。

Now here's the real thing.

除了稀有度之外，另外两个主要解决方案，有趣的是，正是黄金三要素中的另外两个。

The the the two major solutions beyond rarity, interesting are the other two parts of the golden trifecta.

惊喜。

Surprise.

惊喜。

Surprise.

第一个就是颜色轮。

So number one is the color wheel.

他设计颜色轮的原因，是想把东西分开，他的想法是，不是每副牌组都能使用所有的牌。

So what he did the reason he made a color wheel was he wanted to separate out he wanted to have things the idea was every deck shouldn't be able to play every card.

那其实，我先讲一下法术力。

So actually, let me do the mana.

先讲法术力吧，因为法术力其实和颜色是交织在一起的。

Let me do mana first because mana actually, I mean, are intertwined.

我觉得它们其实是同一回事。

I mean, I guess they're they're part of the same thing.

颜色的概念是说，我会有不同的卡牌，然后法术力系统告诉你，你不能轻松地玩所有颜色。

So the idea of color says, I'm gonna have different cards and then I'm on the mana system that says, you just can't play all the colors easily.

你知道，法术力系统说，嘿，你可以轻松玩一种颜色，但每多加一种颜色，难度就增加。

You know, the mana system says, hey, you know, you can play one color easily and every time you add another color, it gets more difficult.

这之所以重要，是因为它让你可以说，好吧，我可以做出好卡，但把它们分散到各个颜色里，这样不是每副牌都能用上所有好卡。

And the reason that's important is it allows you to say, okay, I can make good cards but I can spread them out through the colors, and that means not every deck can play every good card.

所以首先，这就能分散好卡，增加多样性。

And so for starters, that just kinda spreads out what the good cards are and makes more diversity.

哦，我想玩这张超模卡？

Oh, I wanna play this broken card?

好吧，那我得用蓝色。

Well, I need to play blue.

我想用这张强卡？

I wanna play this broken card?

那我也得用蓝色。

I also need to play blue.

我想用这张强卡？

I wanna play this broken card?

对。

Yeah.

蓝色。

Blue.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

也许早期万智牌在执行上有些地方没有达成一致，但颜色派的理念是确定的。

Maybe maybe there's some of the execution in early magic was not agreed on, but the concept of the color pie was.

不过这里的想法是，你可以把好东西分开，这样不是每副牌都能拥有所有好东西。

The idea there though is is that you can break up and separate your good things, and so not every deck has access to all the good things.

我在讲梅里登的时候提到过，当时梅里登有很多问题。

I talked about during Meriden when Meriden had a lot the problems it did.

部分原因就是，你知道，它没有把那些东西分开。

Part of that stemmed from the fact that, you know, it didn't break out the things.

那样一副牌就能拥有所有好东西。

That one deck could have every good thing in it.

我们叫它“大杂烩”。

We called it the blob.

那你怎么阻止它呢？

And then how do you stop it?

而且，我们没法简单地禁一张牌来阻止那副牌组，因为它几乎把所有需要的牌都拿走了。在一个没有颜色限制的结界环境中，它暴露了游戏中缺乏颜色控制的问题。

And like, we couldn't just ban a card to stop the deck because there's just it just took every card it needed because in an an artifact environment without any color controls, it it it sort of it it showed up the problem of not having color in the game.

所以，一部分原因就是，不同颜色有不同的东西。

So part of it was okay, there's things in different colors.

另一个重要方面是法力资源的概念，也就是你需要随着时间慢慢积累。

Another big part of it was the whole idea of the mana resource which is you have to build up over time.

这非常重要。

It's really important.

等我以后在相关的播客里讲到这些内容时，我会更深入地探讨。

And when I when I get to the respective podcast on these things, I'll go more in-depth.

但你现在可以理解的基本概念是，卡牌在游戏的不同阶段有不同的价值。

But the the basic concept you can understand here is cards have different value at different points in the game.

这就是法力系统的重要性之一，或者说，是其中一个重要的方面。

That that is the important thing of the mana system or one of the important things.

这意味着，在游戏早期，第一回合，一个一费卡牌非常重要。

And what that says is early game, turn one, a one drop is really important.

六费牌就没用了。

A six drop is useless.

到了游戏后期，六费牌就非常重要了。

Later in the game, a six drop is really important.

一费牌就没用了。

A one drop is useless.

所以理查德想出了一个办法，让卡牌在不同时间有不同的价值，这样总体上更多卡牌都有用了。

And so Richard came up with a means in a way by which he could ensure that cards had different values at different times, which meant more cards overall had value.

这就是他努力想实现的一个重要部分。

And that's a big part of what he was trying to do.

现在，另一个相关的东西，我称之为赛制，但其实是这样的——万智牌的一个核心理念，我经常讲这个，让我稍微解释一下，就是万智牌其实不是单一的一个游戏。

Now, another thing that that plays into this is I'll call this formats, but is the idea that I'm gonna so one of the ideas of magic, I talk about this a lot, let let me explain a little bit, is magic isn't really one game.

理查德做的是，他创造了一种资源、一套总规则和一套工具，也就是卡牌，然后说：好，我来教你怎么玩，但它足够灵活、模块化，你可以按自己喜欢的方式去玩。

What Richard did is he created a resource and an umbrella set of rules and a set of tools, the cards that said, okay, I'm gonna explain how to play and then it's flexible enough and modular enough that you could sort of play the way you wanna play.

你懂吧？

You know?

理查德明白，如果我把卡牌交给玩家，再给一套基本规则，他们自然会自己延伸出更多玩法。

And Richard understood that, you know, if I give people cards and I give them a basic rule set, they're gonna extrapolate, you know.

这是一款为玩家打造的游戏。

This was a game made for gamers, you know.

这不是那种随便玩玩的休闲游戏。

This wasn't a game like, this wasn't a casual game.

理查德设计这款游戏时，不仅包含了游戏本身，还有各种组件，以及一个元游戏。

This was a game where Richard said, I'm gonna make the game, there's components, and there's a metagame.

也就是说，如果你真的投入这款游戏，你就得自己去探索。

Meaning, if you're really into this game, you're gonna have to go out and explore.

你得和其他玩家交流。

You're gonna have to talk to other people.

你得看看别人是怎么玩的。

You're gonna have to see what other people are doing.

你明白吗？

You know?

所以当我跟别人玩的时候，他们可能有一些我不知道的东西，我得去学。

And so when I go to play somebody, you know, they might have things I don't know and I gotta learn about them.

然后一旦我了解了这些，我就得根据他们的情况来调整策略。

And then once I learn about them, I have to adapt to them.

你看，早期万智牌的情况现在想起来挺难理解的，但在当时，互联网才刚刚起步。

See, in early magic I mean, is a hard concept to get now, but in the early magic, the Internet was really in its infancy.

我是说，那时候互联网主要也就那么些用途。

I mean, it was mostly used in that at the time.

你知道，那跟咱们现在尤其是有了社交媒体之后的想法不太一样。

You know, it wasn't it wasn't what we think of today as as, you know, especially with social media.

那时候的情况跟现在可不一样。

It wasn't what it is today.

所以当时的交流还是更偏向于个人化的。

So the communication was still much more personal.

不像现在这样完全由互联网驱动。

It wasn't as as Internet driven as it was now.

所以理查德决定，这是万智牌公司曾经有一段时间的做法，他们不想帮玩家去搞清楚哪些卡是什么情况。

And Richard decided, and this is something Wizards did for a while, that they didn't wanna help the players figure out what was what.

比如在前一年，或者可能一年半的时间里，万智牌公司不会告诉你卡牌的稀有度。

For example, for the first year maybe, maybe year and a half, Wizards didn't tell you the rarity of the cards.

哪些是普通，哪些是非普通，哪些是稀有？

What's common, what's uncommon, what's rare?

他们就是不告诉你。

Not saying.

卡牌上没有标记，也没有稀有度标识。

They weren't marked in the cards and there's no rarity indication on the cards.

他们甚至故意耍我们。

And they even messed with us.

他们确实故意耍了我们。

They even messed with us.

举个例子，在阿尔法版里，稀有卡那张表上有一张岛屿卡。

So for example, in alpha, on the rare sheet, there is an island.

为什么稀有卡表里会有一张海岛？

Why is there an island on the rare sheet?

因为那张海岛跟普通卡表里的那张海岛完全一模一样，却出现在了稀有卡表上。

Well, the island's the exact same island on the common sheet that's on the rare sheet.

为什么呢？

Why?

因为他们就想故意搞乱玩家，让玩家分不清自己包里哪张才是稀有卡。

Because they wanted to mess with people trying to figure out which card in their pack was the rare slot.

他们故意折腾我们，因为他们的想法是——我是说，这是理查德的主意，我觉得挺酷的——很多乐趣其实来自于玩家之间的互动和探索。

They were they were messing with us because they're like, they want I mean, Richard's idea, and I think it was a cool idea, is that, hey, a lot of the fun of this will be the interaction, the exploration.

而他不想做的，就是让玩家直接去查资料然后找到答案。

And what he didn't wanna do is just have someone go to the look it up, and then they they find the answers.

所以 Wizards 早期确实是这样，如果你看早期的情况，我们一开始并不公布卡组列表。

And so wizards early on in fact, if you look early on, we didn't give decklist early on.

比如第一届和第二届世界冠军赛，因为我写了那些文章，我会描述卡组是怎么运作的，还会给出详细的对局过程复盘。

Like, in the original, like, the world champ both both the first and second world championship, because I I wrote these articles, I would talk about what the deck did, and I gave a play by play where I ran through what happened.

所以你可以把很多信息拼凑起来。

So you could piece a lot of it together.

但我从来没告诉过你——我是说，我后来回去告诉了你卡组列表。

But I never told you I mean, I went back later and told you the deck list.

但当时我没告诉你卡组列表，因为我不被允许。

But at the time, I didn't tell you the decklist because I wasn't allowed to.

你知道，他们不想让人们抄袭别人的卡组。

You know, they didn't want people copying other people's decks.

所以威世智早期做了很多事来减缓这种情况。

And so wizards did a lot early on to sort of slow that down.

后来，基本上发生的是，我是说，信息渴望自由。

Later on, essentially, what happened was, I mean, information wants to be free.

所以他们最终得出的结论是，看，人们总会找到信息，尤其是互联网开始起飞了。

And so what they eventually came to the conclusion of is, look, people are gonna find the information, especially the Internet sort of took off.

他们基本上说，这是一场我们赢不了的仗。

And they they sort of said, like, this is this is a fight we're not gonna win.

所以，他们改变了理念。

So let let's let's you know, they changed the philosophy.

他们说，好吧。

They said, okay.

嗯，我们会把信息公开，但也会创造其他工具让大家讨论。

Well, we'll have the information out there, you know, but we'll create other tools for people to discuss things.

我的意思是，我们调整了处理问题的方式。

And I mean, we changed kind of how we approach things.

总之，集换式卡牌游戏有颜色、稀有度和法术力费用，至少《万智牌》是这样。

But anyway, so a Trading Card game has color, it has rarity, it has mana cost, you know, at least magic does.

所有这些因素让不同的卡牌在不同时期显得重要。

And all those things lent lent itself to having different cards matter at different times.

但还有另一个关键点。

But here's the other important thing.

让我来说说这个。

Let me get to this.

理查德明白，万智牌其实不止是一种游戏。

Richard understood that magic was really more than one game.

其中一部分原因是他为不同类型的玩家设计了卡牌。

And part of that was he made cards for a lot of different kinds of players.

后来，我进一步创建了玩家心理画像，来定义我们是如何做到这一点的。

Now, I would later go on to sort of create the psychographics to define how we were doing it.

理查德做到了。

Richard did it.

理查德为蒂米、强尼和斯派克设计了卡牌。

Richard made cards for Timmy, Johnny, and Spike.

并不是说理查德不理解这些不同的玩家群体。

It's not that Richard didn't get these different audiences.

他没有给他们贴标签。

He didn't label them.

我做的其中一部分工作就是给他们贴上标签，这样研发部门就能确保我们是在为他们设计卡牌。

I mean, part of what I did was label them so R and D can make sure we were designing for them.

所以他做的一个很重要的事情就是说，好。

But so a big part of what he did is he said, okay.

我要做很多不同类型的卡牌。

I'm gonna make lots of different kinds of cards.

而且，你知道，他的想法就是不同的卡牌会对不同的玩家有意义。

And, you know, the idea being different cards were gonna matter to different players.

其中一个解决办法就是，有些卡牌特别有风味，可能没那么强，但风味十足。

And one of one of the ways to solve it was also like certain cards are super flavorful and maybe they weren't as powerful, but man, they were flavorful.

有些人就想要那些。

Some people wanted those.

你知道，其他卡牌有线性策略。

You know, other cards had linear strategies.

我是说，理查德很擅长说，好。

I mean, Richard was very good about saying, okay.

我要放一些卡牌进去，这些卡牌明显会引导你去找其他卡牌。

I'm gonna put some cards in that's that clearly point you to other cards.

你知道，哥布林王、亚特兰蒂斯领主和僵尸大师都在第一版阿尔法中。

You know, Goblin King and Lord of Atlantis and Zombie Master were all in the first in alpha.

它们都说，好的。

And all of them said, okay.

去找这种类型的生物吧。

Go find creatures of this type.

对吧？

You know?

他还有很多其他卡牌，比如力量手套，它让你的山脉多产一点法力，你的红色生物也更大。

And he he had a lot of other cards that definitely you know, Gauntlets of Might said, your mountains tapped for one more and your red creatures are bigger.

你看，这不需要什么高深学问，就知道该怎么做。

Like, look, it didn't take a rocket science to say, okay.

就用这个组一套纯红卡组。

Gonna build a mono red deck with this thing.

同样，他还有那些护身符，比如幸运护身符，你扔骨头、木矛，还有那些在你施放特定颜色咒语时获得生命的卡牌。

Same, he had the the charms where you the lucky charms where you, you know, thrown a bone and wooden spear and those cards where you gained life as you cast certain color spells.

从防守的角度来说，他还设计了一些专门用来对抗对手的防御性卡牌。

And flip wise, he also made cards that were defensive cards meant to play against another player.

哦，如果你的朋友在用红牌组猛攻你怎么办？

Oh, is your if you're the friend you play beating you down with a red deck?

哦，看这里。

Oh, look.

一张反红保护结界。

A circle protection red.

这真的很棒，是个红色套牌。

That's really good, it's a red deck.

他还加入了很多颜色固定地。

And he also put a lot more color hoses in.

Alpha版本里有很多颜色固定地。

Alfa has a lot of color hoses.

有一些非常强的颜色固定地。

Has some very strong color hoses.

比如说，你玩白色牌组，对手玩黑色牌组，那业力这张卡怎么样？

You know, you're playing white and your opponent's playing black, how about karma?

你懂的。

You know?

或者反过来，你玩黑色，对方玩白色，那幽暗这张卡呢？

Or you're playing black and they're playing white, how about gloom?

这些颜色克制关系带来的压制力真的很强。

Talk about some beatings of of color hoses.

所以另一部分是，理查德确保游戏里有很多不同类型的组件，这样能帮玩家拓展思路，去尝试不同的玩法。

So another part of it is Richard made sure that the game had a lot of different kinds of components, and that would help that would help players sort of branch out to want different things.

就像我刚才说的，关于‘皇后’的问题，还有‘哪张牌最好’的问题，这更多是锦标赛层面的问题，属于竞技性的考量。

Now, like I said, the the the queen problem, the the your best card problem is more of a tournament problem, more of a competitive problem.

正如我之前提到的，他通过曼尼科机制、稀有度以及颜色这几个方面来解决部分这类问题。

And and like I said, he saw part of that with with Manicos and part with rarity and part with color.

不过，这套方案当时还没完全完善。

Now it wasn't complete.

比如，有件事大家不太明白，很多人会说，你知道吗，我只能回忆一下。

Like, one of so here's one the things people don't understand is a lot of people say, you know, I just have to recall.

黑莲花，他们当时是怎么想的？

Black Lotus, what were they thinking?

而实际情况是，理查德当时的思路是这样的。

And the reality is Richard Richard's thought process was this.

他说，好吧。

He said, okay.

我明白，如果这个游戏规模足够大。

I understand if the game gets big enough.

他觉得普通人大概会花40美元左右。

Like, he thought the average person's gonna spend $40 maybe.

就像他们买一款普通游戏花的钱那样。

Like, they're gonna spend amount of money like this they spend on a normal game.

你知道，你在一款游戏上会花多少钱？

You know, how much money do you spend on a a game?

但是，你知道，40美元已经是上限了，差不多就这样。

But, you know, $40 is the top end of, like, okay.

这就像，我会花这个钱买一个高档的德国桌游。

This is, you know, a fancy German board game I'll spend.

我是说，现在可能得60美元了。

I mean, now it's maybe 60.

但在当时，大概是40美元。

But at the time, was about 40.

差不多吧。

Like, okay.

可能已经超了，所以他说，好吧。

Maybe it's been over and so he said, okay.

那么，如果每个人都花40美元，我预期大家会看到什么样的环境呢？

Well, what do I expect people to see if there's if everybody spends $40, what's the environment like?

他的想法是，在一个游戏小组里，大概12个人左右，他说，哦，大概会有一个人能抽到回忆卡。

And the idea was, you know, in an in a play group, in a play environment, which is, I don't know, 12 people, let's say, you know, he said, oh, there'll be one in just a recall.

有一个人会有一张，但只是回忆中的一张。

One guy will have one in just a recall.

他不一定会有其他那些破坏平衡的卡牌。

And he's not gonna have all the other broken cards necessarily.

那些卡牌也挺稀有的。

The those are also pretty rare.

所以理查德就说，好吧。

So what happened is Richard's like, okay.

对，确实有些破坏平衡的东西，但它们数量那么少，应该不会影响大局。

Well, yeah, there's some broken stuff, but they're gonna be in such small number that it it shouldn't impact things.

现在我问了理查德一个问题。

Now the question I've asked Richard.

想想理查德。

Think about Richard.

你有没有考虑过，如果游戏规模变大了会怎样？

Didn't you take into account what happened if the game got bigger?

理查德就说，如果游戏真的火到那种程度，人们花太多钱买这些卡，那这其实是个挺好的问题。

And Richard was like, well, if the game got big enough that we had the problem of people having too many of these things because the amount of money they were spending was so large, he goes, that's a pretty good problem to have.

你知道，他就说，我们会处理的。

You know, he's like, we'll we'll deal with it.

如果我们的问题是人们花几千美元买卡，那说明我们大获成功了，到时候再解决那个问题也不迟。

If our problem is people are spending thousands of dollars on cards, well, that means we have a runaway hit and we'll deal with that problem.

你明白吧？

You know?

并不是理查德不明白“全国召回”或“黑莲花”很强。

It wasn't that Richard didn't understand that National Recall or Black Lotus weren't good.

他只是觉得，那不重要。

He just was like, it doesn't matter.

在他当时那个规模下，确实不重要。

In the scale that he was working with, it didn't matter.

他的态度就是，看，如果我们对规模的判断错了，那必须得是游戏大爆才行。

And his whole attitude was, look, if we're wrong on scale, in order for us to be wrong, this has to be a runaway hit.

然后，嘿，我们真的火了。

And then, hey, we have a runaway hit.

我们能处理这个问题。

We can deal with it.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且有趣的是，顺便说一句，人们经常问我。

And and it's the funny thing, people have often asked me, by the way.

所以，我有一台时间机器。

So I I have a time machine.

如果我能回到过去，假设我要改变任何事情，因为从科幻电影里学到，永远不要改变任何事。

If I can go back, assuming I change anything, because I've learned from science fiction movies, never change anything.

但假设我想改变什么，我会把“权力九”去掉吗？

But assuming I want to change anything, would I take out the power nine?

你知道，天哪，当然不会。

You know, heavens heavens no.