通勤路上 #3 - 鹏洛客

你好，欢迎收听通勤路上的节目。

Hello, and welcome to drive to work.

我刚从自家车道开出来，这意味着我们的播客正式开始了。

I'm pulling out of my driveway, which means it's time to start our podcast.

好的。

Okay.

今天我要坦白一件事——我完全是凭裤子的状态在做这个节目。

So today, be aware that I'm kinda doing this whole thing by the state of my pants.

今天我打算同时做两件事。

Today, I'm trying two different things at once.

第一件事是，我要聊一个今天没有固定主题的内容，虽然它是个设计元素，而且我还请了一位嘉宾。

One is I'm gonna talk about something that's not a set today, although it's a design element, and I have a guest.

结果我发现，我和马特·卡沃塔住在一个社区，他是我的好朋友。

So it turns out that I live in the same neighborhood as Matt Cavotta, who's a good friend of mine.

所以今天我顺路捎他去上班。

And so I'm taking him to work today.

所以我选了一个马特参与过的主题，这样他就能来参加今天的播客了。

So I picked a topic that Matt was involved in so that he could join us for today's podcast.

这事儿我以前真没干过。

Now I've never done this before.

严格来说，我们现在用的是我的手机。

Technically, we're using my my my phone.

希望你们能听清他的声音，整体效果也能不错。

So hopefully, you guys will able to hear him and this will go across well.

我现在正开车去接马特。

So I'm driving to go get Matt.

我先简单跟你们说说马特的情况，方便你们了解背景。

Let me a quick give you update on Matt so you guys know the context.

马特·卡沃塔曾经两次为威世智工作过。

So Matt Cavotta has worked for Wizards two different times.

第一次是我招他进来的，他在创意团队负责角色命名和背景文案。

The first time, I hired him and he worked in the creative team in charge of names and flavor text.

后来他离开了一阵子，又回来了，现在负责监督《万智牌》的整体视觉风格。

And then he left for a while, and he came back, and now he's in charge of overseeing the look and feel of magic.

他所在的部门叫CAPS。

He works in what we call caps.

比如《万智牌2013》的包装设计，那种黑银配色，他就深度参与了。

And if you like, for example, the packaging for magic 2013, he was very involved in that, the the black and silver.

所以今天，我们要聊聊鹏洛客的设计。

So anyway, today, we're gonna talk about the design of planeswalkers.

马特在这件事上参与很深，所以我特别想让他一起参与进来。

Matt actually was very involved in this, and so I thought it'd be fun to have him involved.

我以前从来没试过让两个人来回对话，今天我们就来试试看。

I've never tried this with back and forth with two people, so we are going to try this today.

我马上就要去接他了。

I'm gonna be picking up momentarily.

我住的地方叫高地，马特也住那儿。

Matt lives in the in the I live in what's called the Highlands.

所以马特住得离我很近，今天大部分时间他都会在这儿参与播客。

So Matt lives very near to me, so he will be here for the vast vast majority of the podcast today.

我特别期待看看今天这个对话会怎么展开。

And I am quite excited to see how this turns out.

如果你们还记得的话——还不了解的话——planeswalkers 最初是为《未来视界》这套牌设计的。

So, if you remember, for those that do not know, the the planeswalkers were originally going to be designed for future sight.

等马特上车后，我们就从那里接着讲下去。

So when Matt gets in the car, we'll pick up the story there.

它们其实没被做成《路温》系列，这些细节待会儿都会讲到。

And they didn't actually get made to Lurwin, so all that will get explained.

而且你们会发现，真正提出设计 planeswalker 卡牌这个点子的人，其实就是马特。

But and and as you'll find out, Matt was the actually, the person who came up with the idea of making planeswalker cards.

所以我们今天要请他来聊聊，让他给我们讲讲来龙去脉。

So we are gonna talk to him, and he is going to fill us in.

我认识马特已经很多年了。

Now I've known Matt for quite a while.

有意思的是，我和马特上的是同一所高中——俄亥俄州佩珀派克的橙县高中，但那时候我们根本不认识。

So interestingly, Matt and I went to the same high school, Orange High School in Pepper Pike, Ohio, but he and I didn't know each other.

我上高三那会儿，他应该还在读八年级。

I think I was a senior when he was in eighth grade at at Orange High School.

那时候八年级学生是直接在高中上课的。

The eighth graders were in high school.

虽然我们在同一所学校，但我当时根本不知道他，不过后来我们认识了，成了不错的朋友。

And I did not know him when we both went to the same school, But since then, I I obviously met him, and we've become good friends.

我最早认识他的时候，他只是一个插画师。

I I knew him from the days when he was just an artist.

接下来你会听到他是怎么被录用的，这事儿还挺有意思的。

And as you will see, will tell the story of how he got hired because that actually is a pretty good story.

好了，我看到马特了。

Anyway, I see Matt.

他正在等我们。

He is waiting for us.

来，让马特上车吧。

So let's let's let Matt in the car.

嘿，马特。

Hey, Matt.

你好。

Hello.

嗨。

Hey.

好吧。

Okay.

马特，我刚才跟你说了，我们在录一个播客。

So I explained to you, Matt, that we are doing a podcast.

这事儿还是头一回。

So this is something new.

我以前从来没在播客里请过嘉宾。

I've never ever had a guest on my podcast before.

因为我能成为第一个嘉宾，我感到很荣幸。

Because I'm honored to be the first.

所以我猜你得把声音放大一点，毕竟我们用的是这个录音设备。

So I assume you have to speak up just because this is what we're recording on.

不管怎样，我本来想聊的是你加入我们之后，是怎么促成旅法师这个设计的。

So anyway, here's where I was setting up before we got here was I was gonna talk about hiring you and how you led us to creating planeswalkers.

嗯，这个说法至少部分是对的。

Well, that that that could be at least partially true.

当时剧里其实有不少角色。

There were there were a number of characters in the play.

是的。

Yeah.

确实有，不过咱们先从你被录用这件事说起吧。

There were, but well, let's start, for example, with you getting hired.

你最初只是为《万智牌》做插画的。

So you originally were just an illustrator for Magic.

没错。

Correct.

那你是怎么做到的？

How did that how did that happen?

我第一次玩魔法牌的时候就觉得这太酷了，于是就这么发生了。

It happened when I first played Magic cards and decided this was the coolest thing.

而且我本来就是个画家，所以正好把巧克力和花生酱混在一起，做出了有史以来最棒的糖果。

And the fact that I was already an artist meant it was high time to put the chocolate and the peanut butter together and make the greatest candy there ever was.

我花了好几年才终于混了进去。

It took a a number of years to weasel my way in.

但只要一进门，一切都变得特别顺心。

But once I got my foot in the door, it was good times had by all.

所以你的第一个作品集，我记得是《麦卡迪安面具》。

So how so your first set, believe, was mercadian masks.

是这样吗？

Is that correct?

是的。

Yes.

那你第一幅画是怎么拿到的？

So how'd you get your first piece of art?

这事是怎么发生的？

How'd that happen?

我差不多一年时间一直在给之前的美术总监寄作品，那时候他刚觉得我差不多可以了。

I had I had been sending illustrations into the former art director for a year or so and was just getting to the point where he thought that I was ready.

我打电话去问他对最新一批作品的看法，结果才知道他已经离职了。

And I called him to to find out what he thought of my most recent batch of work, only to learn that he had just been fired.

我当时特别沮丧，但接替他的新美术总监收到了一堆之前留下的作品集，而我的正好在最上面。

So I was despondent, But the the art director that took over for him was given the heap of portfolios that were on the previous art dress director's desk, and mine was on top.

他觉得既然新官上任，不如趁机招个新人。

And he thought he would exercise his new power and Hire a new guy.

招个新人。

Hire a new guy.

我就是那个第一个新来的。

And I was that first new guy.

那感觉太棒了。

It was awesome.

明白了。

Okay.

咱们往前跳一段。

So let's cut forward a little bit.

有一阵子，我手头没事干，就顺便管起了创意团队。

So I, for a while, was in charge of the creative team when I didn't have enough on my plate.

当时有个职位空着，我就想了个不一样的办法。

And so I had a position I had to fill, and so I did something a little different.

我当时让应聘者做这么一件事：我说，行吧。

So this was my this is this is what I made people do to for the job was I said, okay.

你得证明自己有创意。

I want you to prove you're creative.

给你一张八又二分之一的纸，只用一面。

You have an eight and a half piece of paper, one side only.

随便你怎么弄。

Do whatever you want.

让我看看你有多有创意。

Prove to me you're creative.

你那次面试表现得真不错。

And you did a pretty awesome audition.

说说你到底做了什么？

Tell tell me what you did.

我嘛，也不能说是在恶搞，但我是模仿了MagicTheGathering.com上那种常见的卡牌比赛文章格式——那种东西我平时根本不会看，毕竟我也不真玩卡牌，但我对它挺熟悉的。

I I sort of I don't wanna say spoofed, but I took the format of the usual magicthegathering.com tournament card playing article, something that I generally didn't read for, you know, my own card playing aspirations, but I was aware of it.

于是我把它改了改，变成了一份求职申请，自己设计了一堆卡片，用来代表我过去的经历，或者我想在威世智公司做的那些工作。

But I twisted it around and turned it into a sort of audition for the job, where I faked up cards of my own to represent the experiences that I've had or the jobs that I wanted to do for wizards.

我把它包装成一篇短小精悍的文章，加了很多图片、文字游戏，还有各种有趣的细节。你当时是当成草稿来做的，就像在打草稿一样。

And I cooked it all up into a snappy little article with lots of pictures and plays on words and other random little flavorful tidbits you did it as a draft article as if you were drafting.

是的

Yeah.

很高兴你还记得。

I'm glad you remember it.

我脑子里有点模糊了。

It's a little foggy in my mind.

不是的。

No.

我印象挺深的。

I I was impressed.

当时马特说，他的第一选择是他妻子，我觉得是这样。

So what happened was Matt would talk about his first pick was his wife, I believe.

哦，不是。

Oh, no.

他第一选择可能是他艺术家的身份，第二选择才是他妻子，然后是他孩子。

His first pick might have been his being an artist, and the second pick was his wife, and he picked his kids.

我肯定我的第一选择是我妻子。

I'm sure my first pick was my wife.

其实我记不太清了。

Actually, I don't remember.

是的。

Yeah.

不过话说回来，Matt画的所有画和卡片，都反映了他生活的方方面面。

But anyway, Matt all the art all the cards Matt had done, and they represented elements of his life.

做得真不错。

And it was just really well done.

我当时其实认识Matt，因为我在展览上见过他。

I mean, I mean, I had known Matt at the time because I'd seen him at shows.

我记得我们俩都去过悉尼，还聊过一阵子。

I think we both gone to the world that Sydney we had spent some time talking.

我之前提过，上车前我们刚上完高中。

I I mentioned before I got you guy in the car that we've gone to high

高中，是的。

school Yeah.

虽然我们高中时并不认识。

Even though we didn't know each other in high school.

圈子里。

World.

他妻子其实在我读高中的那所学校教书，不过那已经是很久很久以后的事了。

And his his his wife actually taught at my high school, though, obviously, not a way way way after I was there.

她和我聊了很多关于那所学校的事。

But she she and I were talking a lot about the school.

所以我慢慢了解了Matt，后来他提交了一次特别棒的试镜。

And so I got to know Matt, and then he submitted this awesome audition.

接下来我想我们给你做了一个测试。

And I think the next thing is we gave you a test.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

因为我们找的那个人本来负责命名和背景文案。

We gave a because the person who was gonna do this was in charge of names and flavor text.

对。

Right.

所以我们给了他们一个命名和背景文案的测试，你表现得非常好。

So we gave them a names and flavor text test, which you did very well on.

还行吧。

It was okay.

我想重考一次那个测试。

I would like to retake that test.

从那以后我学到了不少东西。

I learned quite a bit in the time since then.

不过话说回来，我觉得他的创意测试表现最出色。

But anyway, so he had the best the creativity test, I thought he had the best one.

在名字和文案的测试里，你的成绩排在前列。

Of the the test for the names and flavor text, you were near the top.

我不太记得你是不是第一，但至少你表现得很出色。

I don't remember if you're at the top, but you were you were competitive at least.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们雇了马特。

So we hired we hired Matt.

就像我之前跟你说的，我当时有辆车。

And so, like I explained for you, I had the car.

马特在这儿干过两回。

Matt worked here two different times.

第一次，马特在我手下负责创意团队的名字和文案工作， basically 就是道格·拜尔的那个位置，没错。

So the first time, Matt worked under me as the guy in charge of name of Flavotech on the creative team, essentially the the Doug Byer position Yes.

就是现在这个时期。

Of modern day.

那我们来聊聊吧，因为是你先跟我提了鹏洛客卡牌这个想法的。

So let's talk about how because you came to me with the idea of a planeswalker card.

你是第一个说出'鹏洛客卡牌'这个词的人。

You were the first person to utter the words planeswalker card.

所以你能不能跟我讲讲，这个想法是怎么来的？

So why don't you explain to me what how that came about?

嗯，那是在时空漩涡系列的中期，我们知道核心机制要做一次大重置，也就是要重新定义鹏洛客的本质。

Well, this was somewhere in the middle of the time spiral block, and we knew that there was a big reset happening with what the the the core essence of a planeswalker was to be.

那时候，鹏洛客并不是很好的故事载体，因为他们几乎拥有神一般的地位。

At that time, planeswalkers were not great storytelling vehicles because they pretty much godlike status.

他们什么都能做到。

They could do anything.

他们甚至能靠意念创造世界，这通常很难制造出引人入胜的冲突。

They could think worlds into being, and that just generally doesn't lead to compelling conflict.

如果我能靠意念解决任何困境，那听起来就挺无聊的。

If I can think my way out of any situation, that's that's just it's kinda boring.

当时我们知道，新的 planeswalker 卡牌即将推出，创意团队也在拼命寻找一条能串联不同世界的线索，一些能长久留存的角色。

So knowing that these new kinds of planeswalkers were coming around and that the creative team had been looking, just desperately looking for any sort of through line that we could create between one world and another, and in essence, some heroes that could could last.

把这两点结合起来似乎是最自然的选择，但自古以来，游戏里还没出过新的卡牌类型，感觉这根本不可能实现。

It it seemed like putting a and b together was the right thing to do, but a new card type had not been created since forever, and it seemed like that's just impossible.

我们根本做不到。

We we can't even do it.

但因为《未来视界》是下一个项目，理论上什么都能尝试，所以觉得这是出手的好时机。

But because Future Sight was the the the next order of business where anything was supposedly possible, it seemed like the right time to take a stab.

让我补充一点背景。

So let me add some context to this.

顺便说一下，马特当时是《未来视界》的设计团队成员。

So Matt, by the way, was on the design team for Future Sight.

这是你第一次加入设计团队吗？

Is that your first design team?

唯一的一次。

First and only.

这是我唯一参与过的设计团队。

First and only design team.

对。

Yeah.

接下来是我对这件事的记忆。

And so what happened was this is my memory of it.

当然，我记得马特来找我们，说他们打算重新设计旅法师，削弱他们的能力。

So, obviously, I remember Matt coming up because they were gonna revamp the planeswalkers and sort of depower them.

因为从叙事的角度来说

Because from a storytelling standpoint

我想说不是削弱，而是让他们更人性化。

I would like to say not depower, but humanize.

就是让他们更有共鸣，更贴近普通人。

Like, give them something that that we can relate to.

但说实话，我们确实在削弱他们的能力。

Well, but I mean, I we also were depowering them.

是的。

Yeah.

但那是乌尔苏拉，典型的悲观看法。

But that's Ursula, like That's glass half empty.

所以我们打算稍微调整一下它们。

So we were gonna revamp them a little bit.

我同意。

I agree.

我喜欢这个词。

Keep in I like that word.

我记得马特跟我说过一句话，因为他来找过我。

And so the the quote I remember from Matt, because Matt came up to me.

那时候我们在做《未来之地》。

We were working on FutureSite.

《未来之地》这个系列挺疯狂的。

FutureSite was kind of a crazy set.

我们当时想出了各种稀奇古怪的点子。

We were coming up with all sorts of weird things.

马特跟我说，如果我们真想让人在乎鹏洛客，就得把他们做成卡牌。

And Matt said to me, he goes, if we're ever gonna make people care about planeswalkers, they have to be cards.

因为长期以来，我们一直把他们当作卡牌来处理。

Because we had this stick for a long time where we refer to them on cards.

对。

Yes.

你总能在卡牌上看到他们的形象。

You'd see them pictured on cards.

但马特的核心观点很有说服力——玩家不会真正在意，除非他们成为卡牌。

But Matt's big argument, and I think it was a very compelling one, was, look, players won't care until they are cards.

我被这个想法深深吸引，而《未来视界》正好在做各种疯狂的尝试。

And I I was very drawn by that and future sight was like doing all sorts of crazy things.

所以我们就决定，在《未来视界》里这么干。

So the idea was we do it in future sight.

如果最后搞砸了，那我们就

If it turns out to be a failure, then we go

那也太遥远了。

It's way in future.

一个你根本看不到的疯狂未来。

Crazy future that you'll never see.

所以我就说，行吧，为什么不试试呢？

And so I said, okay, why not?

咱们就试着做一做吧。

Let let's try to do this.

最初计划是做三个鹏洛客。

And so the original plan was we were gonna make three planeswalkers.

我觉得会是蓝色、黑色和绿色的鹏洛客。

I believe it's gonna be a blue, a black, and a green planeswalker.

对。

Yes.

我们本来打算把它们放进这个系列里。

And we were gonna put them in the set.

哦，给喜欢了解历史的人来个冷知识。

Oh, quick little sip tidbit for people who like their history.

它们曾经确实被放进过系列，但后来被移除了，因为等下你就知道了，我们觉得还需要进一步打磨。

They were in the set for a while, and then they got removed because, as you'll see in a second, we decided they needed more work.

但当我们把绿色鹏洛客加进去的时候，被替换掉的那张牌，我现在想起来是帕米格利夫。

But the card that they that got removed when we put the green planeswalker into the set was I'm thinking now the the Lord Goyf.

不是。

No.

是

It's

帕米格利夫。

Parmiglyf.

不错。

Nice.

所以帕米格利夫被移出了套牌，好让绿色的鹏洛客加入。

So Parmiglyf got taken out of the set so we could put in the green planeswalker.

后来当它正式发布时，又给加回去了。

And then when they came out, it went back in the set.

我设计这张牌的时候，它的费用是两蓝。

And when I made the card, it was a star star.

当主设计师迈克·图林把它重新加回去时，他以为它是两蓝加一，因为卢尔戈恩是两蓝加一。

And when Mike Turin, who was the lead developer, put it back in, he assumed it was star star plus one because Lurgoyne was star star plus one.

所以他改了。

So he changed it.

他不是故意改的，只是凭记忆以为这张牌原本就是那样的。

Not meaning to change it, just that's what he thought the card was because he did it from memory.

对。

Right.

他还误以为它的费用是两绿。

He also got the I did it at two g.

他设定的是一个法力值。

He did it at one g.

所以这个绿色鹏洛客在某种程度上让这张卡有了魅力。

So the green planeswalker in some way made charm of going with the card

他就是这样。

he is.

对。

Yes.

好了，不管怎样。

Anyway, okay.

你建议我们来设计鹏洛客吧。

So you suggested let's make planeswalkers.

我说，行啊。

I said, okay.

咱们就来设计鹏洛客吧。

Let's make planeswalkers.

你还记得接下来发生了什么吗？

Do you remember what happened next?

我这是在测试马特的记忆力。

My I'm testing Matt's memory here.

是的。

My yeah.

这部分我的记忆有点模糊，因为当时我那边事情太多了。

My memory is fuzzy in this in this area because a lot was going on for me at the time.

而且 planeswalker 的最终成型，其实发生在我没参与的阶段。

And the the ultimate development of planeswalkers actually happened out outside of my view.

那我来给大家梳理一下。

Well, let let me walk people through.

你的确参与了最初的阶段。

I mean, you were involved in the first part.

我们第一步是让未来的团队看看我们能做些什么。

So the first thing we did is I let the future team future site team see what we could do.

所以我们要做的第一件事，或者说当时最紧迫的一件事，就是我在拉尼卡时期，理查德·加菲尔德发明了一种东西，他称之为‘结构’。

And so the first thing we did, something that I one of the most immediate things we did, which I had done, was during Ravnica, Richard Garfield had invented he called them structures.

这个概念代表的是建筑物，因为故事背景设定在一个城市世界里。

And the idea was they represented buildings because we were in a city world.

‘结构’的设计思路是它们有一定的防御力，你可以攻击它们来摧毁它们，但它们并不是生物，只是拥有可以被破坏的防御力而已。

And the idea of structures was they had a kind of a toughness to them, so you could attack them to destroy them, but they didn't they weren't creatures other than they had a toughness that could be destroyed.

对吧。

Right.

所以它们有点像结界。

And so they they were kinda like enchantments.

它们是用来坐在那里玩的，而且唯一能除掉它们的方法就是攻击那些生物。

They were to sit and play, and the only way to get rid of them was attacking the creatures.

我很喜欢这个设计，但拉尼卡实在塞满了各种东西。

I loved the design, but Ravnica was so, like, filled to the with stuff.

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，当时我接手混合机制，是因为觉得拉尼卡卡牌太多了。

I mean, I took on hybrid at the time because I thought Ravnica too much in it.

结果开发团队后来又把它加回去了。

And we ended up development ended up putting it back in.

不过话说回来，我还是挺喜欢结构这个设计的。

But so anyway, I liked structure.

所以我跟他说：我觉得这个想法不错，其实我们当时心里也有数。

So I said to him, okay, I like this idea of I mean, we I think we knew the following.

我们知道鹏洛客的设定是这样的：杰斯，来帮我一下。

We knew the planeswalk the flavor of planeswalkers was, hey, Jace, come help me.

我们需要让鹏洛客主动来找你。

We need know, that that you were getting the planeswalker to you.

而且早期我们就有了忠诚度的概念，意思是这可不是那种一拍就出来的生物。

And I think early on, we had the idea of loyalty in in the sense that this wasn't like a creature that you just blinked into existence.

对。

Right.

你得让他们自愿来帮你。

You had to get them to voluntarily help you.

我记得早期，甚至可能在《未来视界》设计团队成立之前，布雷迪、布兰登和我就在评估这个核心想法。

Well, I remember early on, and this might have even been pre Future Sight design team when Brady and Brandon and I were of vetting the idea at its core.

我们当时想抓住的重点是：怎么让这张牌看起来像另一个玩家？

The the concept we were trying to hit on was how do we make this card seem like another player?

就像桌上的另一个玩家一样。

Like, it's another player at the table.

它就像是我们中的一员，没错。

It's another one of of us Yeah.

自己做自己的事。

Sort of doing its own thing.

这直接促成了我们的第一个设计。

So that led to actually our first design.

这倒是个很好的过渡。

That's a good segue there.

所以一开始，我们就一直觉得它们得做三件事。

So the original we we always kinda knew they were gonna do three things.

至少不止一件。

More than one at least.

或者不止一件。

Or more than one.

我觉得我们最常想的就是三件。

I I think three was our go to.

所以最初的卡牌，第一个设计是这样的：它上场后，

And so the original cards, the very first design, what happened was it would come into play.

第一回合，做第一件事。

Turn one, it did number one.

第二回合，做第二件事。

Turn two, it did number two.

第三回合，做第三件事。

And turn three, it did number three.

对。

Right.

所以你的想法是你甚至无法控制它。

So you the idea was you didn't even control it.

它只是按照自己的方式运作。

It just it just did its thing.

我记得那个绿色的，因为那个绿色的后来变成了加里克。

And I remember the green one, because the green one, I mean, would later become Garrick.

这些名字当时都是编出来的

This had made up names

那时候的事。

at the time.

对。

Right.

我记不清了。

I forget.

我这里有测试用的卡片。

I I I have I have the play test cards.

所以我觉得当时的情况是，第一回合它会生成一个生物衍生物。

So I think what happened was the first one, like, it would make a creature a token on your first turn.

然后它就生成两个衍生物？

And then it double tokens?

不是。

No.

它写的是不行。

It said no.

第二回合，它把那个衍生物复制成两个。

The the second turn, it doubled the token.

第三回合，它就直接失控了。

And then it over And then the third turn, it overran.

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

但实际情况是，比如第一回合，你会生成一个衍生物。

But here's what happened was that let's say, example, turn one, you would make a token.

然后你的对手就会直接用闪电击销毁它。

And then your opponent would, you know, bolt the token.

到了第二回合，你就什么都没做。

And then turn two, you didn't do anything.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

所以实际情况是，我们测试了这些卡牌，我觉得蒙·约翰逊带头管这帮人，真是一群傻瓜。

That's And so what happened was they we play tested them and then I think Monj Johnson was the leader of all of, like, these guys are idiots.

我真想知道，鹏洛客怎么会是傻瓜呢。

I I wonder if planeswalker not to be idiots.

那时候我们想到，不如给玩家多一点掌控感。

And that's when we had the idea of, okay, but let's give you the player a little bit more control.

我的意思是，事情是这样的。

I mean, I so here's what happened.

我们调整了时间安排。

We took the time frame right.

于是我们试了那些所谓的‘机器人版’机制。

So we tried those versions of them, the what we call the robo robo versions.

玩起来挺有意思，但问题也不少——经常出现一些完全不合逻辑的操作，因为他们默认了一些其实并不总成立的前提，而对手显然会故意干扰你。

And they played interestingly, but they had a lot of dumb moments where, right, they would do things that didn't make any sense because they were assuming something that didn't always happen because your opponent would, you know, obviously mess with you.

那时候这些机制已经够有意思了，大家都能看出其中的潜力，但还不够好，我们还不想正式采用。

And I think at that moment, what what they had done was they were cool enough that everybody realized there was something really interesting, but they weren't good enough that we wanted to do them.

我们其实已经证明了这东西值得做，所以……

Like, I think we had proven they were something awesome we should do, and so

只是还没找到正确的解决方案。

We just hadn't found the answer

但还没找到。

yet.

对。

Right.

那时候，兰迪还是《万智牌》的总监。

So I guess, the time, Randy was still the director of Magic.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得兰迪说，这些想法挺有意思的。

And I think Randy said, look, these are cool.

咱们别着急。

Let's take our time.

别赶着推出。

Let's not rush them.

这东西很有意思。

This is something neat.

我的意思是，大家后来都认同了你的想法：如果我们没有旅法师牌，就没办法让人真正关注旅法师这个概念。

And I mean, I think what happened was everybody kinda got on board in your vision of, look, we had if you if we don't have planeswalker cards, we can't make people care about planes walkers.

所以大家都觉得，这些设计挺有意思的。

And so, everybody sort of said, okay, these are interesting.

大家渐渐意识到，我们正站在一个重大突破的边缘，只是还没完全理清头绪。

Well, everyone realized we were, like, on the cusp of something, but we hadn't quite figured it out yet.

于是我们决定，这些牌没必要非得放在《未来视》里。

And so, what we said was, okay, these don't have to be in future sight.

咱们不如多花点时间，把它做到最好。

Let's just spend the the time and get it right.

而且

And

这个决定做对了。

That was the right move.

没错。

Right.

不是。

No.

听我说。

Look.

顺便说一下，据我所见，planeswalkers这个设计，你刚才说是要创造一种新的卡牌类型。

I, by the way, for the record, I think planeswalkers so we you talked about making a new car type.

我们以前从来没创造过新的卡牌类型。

We had never made a new car type.

如果你非要较真的话，我们确实出过装备牌，那也算是个挺重要的子类别。

I mean, if you wanna be antsy, we had made equipment which was a pretty substantial subtype.

对。

Right.

我们曾经一度把《黑暗仪式》改成了法力来源。

We had made at one point they turned, like, dark ritual into a mana source.

但再说一遍，那并不算真正创造新东西。

But once again, it wasn't really making something new.

这只不过是给游戏里本来就有的东西重新贴了个标签。

It was just relabeling something that the game already had.

这次才是我们第一次真正说：嘿，来个新车型吧。

This was the first time we'd like, hey, new car type.

我觉得大家都慢慢接受了，既然要加新东西， planeswalker 确实是个合理的选择。

And I think everybody sort of bought into, okay, if we're going to add something, planeswalkers make sense.

让我解释一下。

Oh, let me explain this.

其实那时候还有好多别的事在同时进行，我们长期都在试着去好莱坞，跟他们说：咱们拍一部《万智牌》电影吧。

There's another a lot of things going on at once is so we, for a long time, have been trying to you know, go to Hollywood and say, hey, let's make a magic movie.

但他们总问我们一个问题：你们的米老鼠是谁？

And one of the problems we always would get from them is, well, who's your Mickey Mouse?

你的最具辨识度的角色是谁？

You know, who is your most identifiable character?

我说，萨拉·天使？天知道到底是谁。

And, like, I don't know, Sarah Angel, like, we you know, who was it?

那些角色都是来来去去的，没有一个固定的。

Like, was these characters that would come and go, and there wasn't a constant.

我们这才意识到，哦，我们得有自己的米老鼠。

And we realized, oh, we need we need our Mickey Mouse.

我们得有一群能代表我们的角色。

We need our, you know, our group of characters.

所以我觉得，布雷迪和创意团队在时空漩涡时期决定全面革新，就是因为我们需要一些能讲故事的角色。

And so I think the reason that Brady and the creative team wanted to do this revamp during Time Spiral was, look, we needed to have characters we could make into something we could tell stories with.

没错。

Right.

当我们想到这张卡牌的设计时，突然觉得一切都串起来了。

And when we came up with the idea of a card, we're like, well, this all comes together.

咱们把这引入万智牌吧。

Let's bring this to magic.

于是兰迪说，别着急，慢慢来。

And so, obviously, Randy said, okay, take Take your time.

所以我们把它们从未来设定里拿回来，重新设计成以前的样子。

So we took them out of future site, try try to look like one back in.

改得更好了，我觉得吧，当然也有人说变糟了，看你怎么看了。

A little a little changed for the better, I guess, or the worst, how you wanna see it.

明白了。

Okay.

后来我就组了一个设计团队。

So what happened then was I made a design team.

我本来有个自研团队，但我觉得你当时没在里头。

I had a self design team, but I don't think you were on the left.

那个团队主要都是设计师。

And that team was mostly designers.

那真是段艰难时期。

Bad times.

我觉得亚伦那时候可能在那个团队里。

I think Aaron might have been on that team.