开车上班 #37 - 学到的教训 - 第三部分

好的。

Okay.

我现在正从车库里开出来。

I'm pulling out of my garage.

大家都知道这意味着什么。

We all know what that means.

又到了新一期的《开车上班》节目时间了。

It's time for another episode of drive to work.

好的。

Okay.

今天，我要讲经验教训系列的第三部分。

Today, I'm gonna do part three of a lessons learned.

对于那些没听过前两期的朋友，这是我正在做的一个系列，我会回顾我做过所有的布景，评估它们，看看能从这些设计中吸取哪些经验。

So for those that have not heard the first two, it's a this is a series I'm doing where I'm looking at all the sets that I've done and evaluating them to see what lessons I can learn from their designs.

所以今天，之前，之前在这个节目里提到过。

So today, previously previously on there I have to work.

第一次我讲了暴风雨、无赖牌和宿命之轮。

The first time I talked about Tempest unglued in Urza's destiny.

上次我讲了奥德赛、镜像和第五黎明。

Last time I talked about Odyssey, Mirrored, and Fifth Dawn.

所以现在我们讲到无赖牌了。

So we are up to Unhinged.

无赖牌给了我一个非常宝贵的教训。

So Unhinged was a very valuable lesson.

无赖牌很有意思。

Unhinged is interesting.

这里简单回顾一下银边产品的历史。

So what happened was a little history here of of of silver border products.

我们做了无赖牌。

So we made Unglued.

无赖牌发售了。

Unglued came out.

一开始看起来非常成功，所以我们马上就急着推出了《Unglued》的第二版。

At first, it looked very successful, and so we they we, right away, rushed into an Unglued two.

当时暂定名为《Unglued 二：必定的续集》。

It was it was tentatively called Unglued two, the obligatory sequel.

但后来发现，我们对《Unglued》的需求量估计错了，印得太多了。

And then it turned out that unglued, we had misjudged how much demand there was, and we'd overprinted it.

结果，跟印量相比，它卖得并不好，所以就被搁置了。

And anyway, it ended up not doing well comparative to what we printed, and so they put it on hiatus.

但很多年后，当时我的上司兰迪·布勒来找我，说我觉得是时候再做一套非正统系列了。

But many years later, Randy Bueller, at the time was my boss, came to me and said, I think it's time to make another unset.

那已经隔了挺久了。

And it had been a while.

我记得这两个系列之间隔了六年。

I think there's a gap of six years between the two sets.

所以最初的《Unglued》主要是由我负责，但有很多人提建议。

And so the first unglued was mostly me with lots of people suggesting things.

这有点像，不是那种传统的设计团队。

It was sort of it was a it was not a traditional design team.

更像是，我在那里做事，同时从很多人那里得到很多建议。

It was more like I was there doing things and getting a lot of input from lots of different people.

《Unhinged》则是一个更传统的设计团队。

Unhinged was a much more traditional design group.

我觉得我从《Unhinged》中学到的教训有几个。

And I think the lesson I learned from Unhinged is a couple lessons.

第一个就是那个“抓到了”机制的失误。

The first one is the mistake that is the gotcha mechanic.

对于那些不了解《Unhinged》的人来说，“抓到了”机制是这样的：如果我在你的坟场里，而你的对手做了某件事——这件事可以是各种各样的——你就可以说“抓到了”，然后把它拿回来。

So for those who no one hinge, gotcha the gotcha mechanic said, if I'm in your graveyard and your opponent does this thing and this thing could be all sorts of things, you may say gotcha and you get it back.

有些是口头上的，比如他们说了某些话。

Some of them were verbal if they said certain things.

还有一个是笑。

One of them was laughing.

其中一个是说数字，或者弹你的牌，或者就是各种不同的事情。

One of them was saying numbers or flicking your cards or just different things.

而“抓到了”机制的问题在于——我在我的《经验教训》播客里也稍微提到过这一点。

And the problem with gotcha mechanic was and I I talked about this a little bit on my lessons two podcast.

我们试玩了一下，觉得挺有意思的。

So we played with it, and it was fun.

这个机制确实好玩。

It was a fun mechanic.

但问题是，和我们一起试玩的团队，我们并不是以“尖刺”玩家的心态去玩的。

But when somebody was but the problem was the team that was playing with it, we weren't playing it as a spike, essentially.

我们并没有试图去极限优化它。

We we weren't we weren't trying to min maxing it.

我们不是那种不惜一切代价要赢的心态。

We weren't trying to, like, you know, win at all cost.

我们只是想玩得开心。

We were trying to have fun.

所以实际情况是，当你只是随便玩玩、开心一下的时候，这个“抓人”机制就像是在说，我继续说话，但尽量不提那个东西。

And so what happened was the gotcha mechanic when you're just kinda goofing around having fun, you know, it's like, I'm gonna keep talking, but I'm gonna try not to say this thing.

但现实是，如果你的目标是赢，真正能赢的方式就是，哦，说话会被惩罚，那我就不说话了。

But the reality is the actual way to win if your goal is to win is, oh, I get punished for saying things, I will not talk.

你知道吗？

You know?

哦，笑也会被惩罚？

Oh, I get punished for laughing?

那我最好永远别笑。

Well, I better never laugh.

你明白吧？

You know?

所以结果就是，这个机制让大家变得拘谨，不太愿意参与，也没那么开心了。

And and so what happened was the mechanic made people clamp down and sort of not participate as much and not have as much fun.

我讲过很多次了，但这次真的是我学到这个教训的地方，就是你可以让玩家做任何你想让他们做的事，但你得考虑他们会怎么做。

And so I've talked about this many times, but, mean, this is kind of where I really learned this lesson, is you can make players do whatever you want, but you have to think about how they're going to do it.

你懂吧？

You know?

你得假设人们会不惜一切代价去赢。

You have to assume people are going to try to win at all cost.

然后，好吧。

And like, okay.

那如果我把我的机制放到那种极端情况下会怎样？

Well, what happens when I put my mechanic through that grinder?

它会让人怎么做？

What does it make people do?

而那种抓人机制基本上让人玩得更不开心。

And the gotcha mechanic made people basically have less fun.

就像，你想赢吗？

It's like you wanna win?

那就别玩得那么开心。

Have less fun.

那是个大问题。

That was a huge problem.

所以，我觉得《Unhinged》最大的错误之一就是，我们太依赖那个“坑人”机制了，它真的会大大降低游戏的乐趣。

And so, I mean, one of Unhinged's biggest mistakes was that it I think we relied on the gosh mechanic, which sucks a lot of fun.

在我看来，那是最严重的错误。

That that was, in my mind, the biggest mistake.

另外，我们之前做过的一件事，而且是有意为之的，就是《Unglued》的风格更偏向无厘头。

Another thing that we had done, and we did this on purpose, is unglued was a little more silly.

所以我们在《Unhinged》里尝试更幼稚一点，去打磨那些喜剧的细节。

And so we tried on unhinged to be a little more sophomoric to to cut the fine hairs of of comedy.

所以它就更偏向那种，你懂的，就是那些“屁股”笑话的来源。

And so it was a little more, you know, like, that's where the the ass jokes came from.

所以在这个系列里，有“驴人”这个种族。

So in the set, there was donkey folk.

而且所有的“驴人”名字里都带“ass”，你懂的，就是“驴”的意思。

And all the donkey folk had ass in their name, you know, ass as in donkey.

但那些都是双关语，你懂的，自作聪明、笨蛋、肥猪。

But they were all puns, you know, smart ass, dumbass, fat ass.

现在回想起来，我觉得万智牌其实比那种幽默风格要高级一些。

And it in retrospect, I mean, I I kinda feel like magic's a little better than that, like that style of humor.

当然，也有人确实喜欢这种风格。

I mean, there's people who obviously enjoyed it.

确实挺有趣的，但我觉得，怎么说呢，我也不太确定。

I mean, it was it was fun, but I I feel that, like I don't know.

那不太符合万智牌的调性，有点过了。不过我觉得我很喜欢非瑞克西亚。

It wasn't really magic sensibility that it was a little I mean, I think I I love unscents.

我觉得非瑞克西亚在万智牌里占有一席之地，但我觉得我们把幽默感拉低得有点过头了，感觉效果不太好。

Think unscents have a really good place in magic, but I feel like we kinda lowered the humor a little bit more than we needed to, and I I felt that didn't work out great.

我们还有一个机制，就是那个“半”机制，里面有分数。

We also had a mechanic, the the half mechanic where I had fractions.

我加入它的原因是，我想找一些简单的东西来做。

And the reason I included it was I thought that I was trying to find some simple things we could do.

比如小女孩，费用是半个白，是个半半生物。

Like little girl, for example, was a cost half a white and was a half half creature.

嗯，那挺简单的。

Well, that's pretty simple.

那是个普通生物，你知道，银边框的普通生物。

That's a vanilla creature in a, you know, in a silver a silver bordered vanilla creature.

这种很难得。

Those are hard to come by.

问题是，结果发现追踪分数比人们想象的要难得多。

The problem was it turned out that tracking fractions was a lot harder than people realized.

所以，我原本想加入一些简单的东西，让事情更容易一点，结果反而让事情变得更复杂了。

And so what I've included to be something that was as simple to, you know, make things a little easier, actually cause cause it to be a little more complicated.

而且不一定是那种有趣的复杂。

And not necessarily in a fun way.

就像，你有18点生命，然后受到三点半的伤害。

It's like, you know, you have 18 life and you get hit by three and a half damage.

你现在是多少？

What are you at?

就是说，你知道，我是说，是的，你可以算出来。

Like, you know, and I mean, yes, you can get there.

如果你停下来，稍微想一想，你就能算出来。

If you stop, just think for a second, you'll figure it out.

但就是那种，你的大脑不太容易自然处理的东西，除非你特别擅长数学。

But it's just something that kind of your brain doesn't naturally process super easily unless you're super mathy.

所以结果就产生了反效果，跟我想要的正好相反。

And so it ended up having the negative like, the opposite effect of what I wanted.

不过话说回来，我在《Unhinged》里学到的一些东西让我很满意，就是我们做了很多尝试。

Now that said, I things I did learn about Unhinged that I was very happy with is we messed around.

我们开始加入更多小游戏。

We started doing more mini games.

我确实很喜欢我做的很多扩展，就是把一些已知的机制，比如超级敏捷之类的，然后尝试不同的版本。

We definitely I I liked a lot of the stretching I did of sort of taking known mechanics, like, you know, super haste or things where I'm I'm trying a different version of them.

当然，那个鼻涕虫后来就成了未来视野里的那个包。

I mean, obviously, the slug went on to be the packs from Future Sight.

以前的《迷雾重重》和《往昔冲击》那些卡牌，都是把旧机制混搭在一起，都是马克·戈特利布设计的，显然启发了《未来视野》里的混搭玩法。

The old Foggy and Blast from the Past, which were cards that mix and match old mechanics, both were created by Mark Gottlieb, that clearly inspired, you know, the mix and match from Future Sight.

其实挺有意思的，我们开玩笑说《未来视野》是第三版，而很多第二版的东西影响了第三版。

In fact, it's funny because we joke that Future Sight was on three, and a lot of on two influence on three.

另外，我在《Unhinged》里学到的一点是，我觉得《Unhinged》做得好的地方在于……

And another thing that I learned about Unhinged was that I feel that we're unhinged thrived.

我觉得我们努力把一些东西和机制联系起来，因为做《Unhinged》的时候，它就像个大杂烩，而我想让它……我是说，《Unhinged》不是为了限制赛做的，但《Unhinged》其实非常注重限制赛。

I think we tried hard to connect some stuff with mechanics because when Unhinged was made, it was just like a hodgepodge, and I wanted it to I mean, Unhinged wasn't made for limited, where Unhinged was very much made for limited.

我当时想让它更有凝聚力一些。

And I was trying to give it a little more cohesion.

我觉得我做的有些东西，我……我……我做了些工作。

Think I some of the stuff I I I worked.

我其实挺喜欢那个关于艺术家主题的机制的效果。

I actually liked how the artist the artist matter stuff worked.

我最喜欢《Unhinged》的一点是，每张卡牌的设计都很扎实，但里面也有很多很巧妙的东西。

And the thing I most enjoyed about Unhinged was there was very solid card by card designs, but there's a lot of very neat things.

当然，不是所有东西都能被理解，做银边框系列的一部分就是探索一个有点模糊的领域，让人们得自己去琢磨是怎么回事。

Now not all of them necessarily were understood, and part of doing a silver border set is messing an area that's that's fuzzy a little bit so people have to kinda figure out what's going on.

但我真的很高兴《Unhinged》里有很多非常酷的单卡。

But I was really happy that there's a lot of just, like, really cool individual cards in Unhinged.

所以，我从中得到的教训是，当你想要跳出常规，做一些不一样的事情时，你得小心，给它足够的空间去发展。

And so that I mean, the lesson I walked away from is that when you're trying to go outside the box, when you do something a little different, that you have to be careful to allow it its own movement.

有时候，你在尝试创作时，会不自觉地遵循以前的做法。

That sometimes what you do is when you're trying to make something, you follow things you've done before.

然后，好吧，我在做一个万智牌系列。

And, okay, I'm making a magic set.

万智牌系列有什么规则？

What are the rules about a magic set?

我觉得在《Unhinged》上，我非常努力地去套用万智牌的规则。

And I think on Unhinged, I tried very hard to adopt the rules of how magic are done to Unhinged.

我觉得有些地方是成功的，但有些地方反而让这个系列没能达到它想要的效果，因为银边系列和黑边系列的运作方式不一样。

And I think some of it was successful, but some of it kind of made the set not do what it wanted because a silver border set works differently than a blackboard set.

对我来说，一个很大的教训就是，你得学会让事物顺其自然。

And, like, one of the big lessons for me was, like, you got you you have to learn to let things be what they wanna be.

而且我觉得，就像我说的，做银边系列最棘手的一点就是，黑边里不能做的限制，这恰恰是银边系列的主要限制之一，这真的很有挑战性，你知道吗。

And I feel like like I said, it's one of the trickiest things about doing a silver border set is that the the constraint of you can't do this in black border, which is one of the main constraints of the silver border set, is very challenging, you know.

在普通牌这个级别，你想做的东西得在普通牌里说得通，但又要简单到在普通牌里合理，同时又要足够特别，让人一看就知道是银边而不是黑边。

That at common, you wanna be able to do things that make sense to common, but, you know, what's simple enough that it makes sense at common, but different enough that it is a silver border, not a black border.

所以，就像我说的，对我来说，Unhinged 不算完全失败，但我确实犯了一些大错，也从中吸取了教训。

And so, like I said, I Unhinged for me is it's not a complete miss, but I definitely made some huge mistakes that I learned from.

好。

Okay.

接下来是拉尼卡。

Next we got Ravnica.

拉尼卡的教训很有意思。

The lessons of Ravnica is interesting.

所以我觉得拉尼卡是我……我的意思是，当时的情况是我在神河系列中途接任了首席设计师，但那个系列的势头其实已经定下来了。

So I think Ravnica is where I mean, what happened was I had taken over as head designer in the middle of Kamagawa block, but that already really the momentum of that had already happened.

所以拉尼卡系列是我真正能从头开始的地方。

And so Ravnica block was where I got to start fresh.

我进入拉尼卡系列时，希望它能更有整体感。

And I went into Ravnica Block wanting to have more cohesion.

所以，我觉得拉尼卡系列的教训——其实有好几个教训。

And so, I think the lesson of Ravnica Block well, there's a couple lessons.

一个是玩家非常看重整体感，你知道，一旦你建立了一个结构，玩家理解了那个结构——我经常说这个，但人类不仅喜欢结构，他们渴望结构。

One was that the audience very much connects to cohesion, you know, that once you make a structure that the audience understands the structure that I mean, I talk about this a lot, but humans not only like structure, they crave structure.

人脑就是想把事情结构化。

The human brain just wants to structure things.

事实上，我学到的一个有趣的事情是——

In fact, here's interesting thing I learned.

我，我上传播学院的时候，必须修一门美学课。

I when I went to communication school, had to take a class in aesthetics.

那是什么呢？大脑——我以前管这叫美的科学，但它的意思是，有一种观点认为艺术完全是主观的，每个人喜欢的东西都不一样，但科学却说，不不不，大脑是天生就设定好的，某些东西就是天生吸引大脑。

And what what that is is the brain I used to call it the science of beauty, but what it means is there's this idea that, you know, art is completely subjective, you know, that each person likes a different thing and and what science kinda said is no, no, no, the brain is hardwired so that certain things are just attractive to the brain.

有些东西是人类天生渴望的，如果你要理解事物的吸引力，那就得研究大脑是怎么运作的，因为有些美学就是会让人感觉更自然，你懂吗？

There's certain things that humans crave and that if you're gonna understand sort of the appeal of things, look, let's study how the brain works because there are certain aesthetics that just will feel more natural to humans, You know?

而且美学的一个基本原则就是人类渴望平衡。

And that one of the tenants of aesthetics is humans crave balance.

嗯，那是其中一方面。

That they well, that's the side.

他们渴望完整。

They crave completion.

他们确实渴望平衡，但他们也渴望完整，而且他们希望事物有秩序。

They do crave balance, but they crave completion, and that they want order to things.

所以，如果你拿一张图片，在上面随便撒一些点，然后给一个人看，人类的大脑就会想在这些点里看出点什么来。

So the idea is if you take a picture and you just randomly splatter dots on the picture and then you show it to a human, the human brain wants to see something in the splatter of dots.

是不是一张脸？

Is it a face?

就像看云一样，对吧？人就是总想看出点什么来。

Is it a like like like looking at clouds, you know, like, the human the human just want to see something.

你懂吧？

You know?

有意思的是，当你看到随机图案时，大脑会自动把它们连起来。

And it's funny that how when you look at random patterns, your brain will just connect the patterns.

它会想办法让这些东西有意义。

You know, it will find ways to make the things mean something.

美学里有一点就是说，大脑会试图让事物变得有意义。

And that one of aesthetics is saying, look, that's the brain is gonna try to make things matter.

它会寻找结构。

It's gonna look for structure.

所以一旦找到结构，就会紧紧抓住，因为大脑渴望结构。

So when it finds structure, it latches on because the brain craves structure.

说到拉德尼克，有意思的是，我上学那会儿，上的是波士顿大学的传播学院，89届的。

And Radniker really and it's funny because when I went to school, I went to communication school, Boston University, college communications, class of '89.

他们当时特别强调的一点就是，沟通其实就是理解人类是怎么运作的。

And one of the things that they really communicated to us was that, you know, communication is about an understanding how humans function.

如果你想擅长沟通，你就得明白人类是怎么接收信息的。

That if you wanna be good at communicating, you better understand how humans receive information.

而且，课堂上讲的就是，人们喜欢协同、平衡、完整和结构。

And, you know, the study class was like, look, people like, you know, synergy and balance and completion and structure.

这些是人类的基本需求。

And there's things humans just need.

如果你要做一名合格的传播工作者，你就得用这些工具来帮助自己。

And if you are gonna do your job as a communications person, you need to be using those tools to help you.

所以，当我接手设计主管的时候，我就想，我要拥抱这种结构。

And so a lot of block structure, when when I sort of took over as head designer, I'm like, look, I wanna embrace it.

你懂吗？

You know?

比如，我刚开始建网站的时候，我记得我做过一期播客，专门讲这个，或者我写过一篇文章。

For example, when I started the website, well, I did a whole podcast on this, I think, where I talked about how the website or I did an article on it.

网站是怎么开始的。

How the website started.

基本上，高层说，魔术公司没有一个像样的网站。

And, essentially, you know, the high end said we want you know, magic doesn't have really have a good website.

我们需要一个好的网站。

We need a good website.

然后我被转给了副总裁比尔，比尔又因为我有传播背景，把任务交给了我。

And I got passed on to Bill who was the VP, and Bill passed it on to me because I had the communications background.

我做网站的方式就是，把我知道的所有传播规则都用上，比如定期更新，让人们有所期待，然后顺应人类的本性。

Well, the way I made the website was I said, let's just apply every rule to communications that I know, you know, and do stuff like have regular schedules so people can, you know, expect things and, you know, and just play into the the nature of how humans function.

总有一天我会做一期关于传播的播客，因为这是个很有意思的话题。

And one of these days, I will do a communications podcast because it's cool cool topic.

我接任首席设计师时也做了同样的事。

I did the same thing when I took over as head designer.

我说，好。

Said, okay.

我们把同样的技术应用到系列的结构上吧。

Let's apply the same technology to how sets are structured.

你懂吗？

You know?

如果你注意到了，我们一直在进步的一个方面，而拉尼卡就是这其中的大教训，你看，如果你建立了一个结构，人们就会来，你知道吗，而且当我最初提出这个想法时，我的意思是，如果你在真空中思考，我在拉尼卡提出的东西有点激进。

And if you notice, one of the things that we've been getting better at and Radnica was like the big lesson of this is, look, you know, if you build a structure, they will come, you know, and that when I first proposed it I mean, if you think about it in a vacuum, what I proposed in Ravennaka was a little radical.

我说，有十种颜色组合。

I said, there's 10 color pairs.

我们会有一个系列。

We're gonna have a set.

我们会做其中四个。

We're gonna do four of them.

那其他六个呢？

Well, how about the other six?

不。

No.

当时，人们都问，你这是什么意思？

Now, at the time, people were like, what do you mean?

我的意思是，不。

And what I was saying is, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

你们太局限于这个系列了。

You're thinking too much of the set.

如果我们只做那个魔法系列，那确实，玩家们会大声抱怨。

If all we made was that magic set, yes, humans would be you know, players would be screaming from the rooftops.

你说没有其他颜色是什么意思？其他六种颜色呢？

What do you mean there's no other what are the other six colors?

你怎么能不把它们包括进去呢？

How could you not include them?

但我们不是这么做的。

But that's not what we did.

我们做的是把它们作为一个整体来呈现。

What did we is we presented to them as a whole block.

通过整体呈现，我们告诉他们的就是，好吧。

And by presenting it as a whole block, what we say to them is, okay.

你明白你现在得不到，但意味着你以后会得到。

You understand that you're not getting it here, but that means you're getting it later.

你懂吗？

You know?

而且这让我学到了很多，比如，如果你想构建什么东西，以前，系列只是一堆东西的集合。

And that using that, I mean, taught me a lot about how, you know, if you want to build something, like, once upon a time, blocks were just a collection of things.

比如，你做一个系列，然后再做一个系列，再做第三个系列。

Like, you made a set, and then you made another set, and you made a third set.

你会在此基础上发展，但你并没有提前规划。

And you would evolve what came before it, but you weren't planning it out.

换个角度看，当你写肥皂剧的时候——我指的肥皂剧是那种持续发展的故事线，比如漫画书在这方面也算肥皂剧。

Here's another way to look at it is that when you write soap operas and by soap operas, I mean, any ongoing story line in I mean, comic books are soap operas in this regard.

它就是一个持续发展的故事，里面有不同的人物，故事永远不会真正结束。

It's just an ongoing storyline where there's a bit different people, and the story never really ends.

这就是肥皂剧的关键。

That that's the key to a soap opera.

它一直继续下去。

It just keeps going.

漫画也是一样的，你看超人已经在漫画里存在了八十年、九十年了，但他并没有解决所有问题然后一切就结束了。

Mean, comics are the same way where, you know, Superman's been in the comics for eighty years, ninety years, and, like, it's not like he solved his problems and things are done.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

同样的角色会不断回来。

The same cast of characters keeps coming back.

当你构思那种连续剧式的情节时，有两种做法。

When you plot episodic soap opera ish things, there's two ways to do it.

一种方法是制造很多开放式的情节。

One method is that you make a lot of open ended things.

你就一直往下编。

You just keep going.

我也不确定接下来会发生什么，但我会继续——天哪。

I'm not sure what's gonna happen, but I'll keep oh my god.

有人绑架了他叔叔。

Somebody kidnapped his uncle.

是谁干的？

Who is it?

然后，你知道，我们相信这个，然后你埋下伏笔，这样以后你就能回来，接上这些伏笔。

And, you know, we'll believe that and you make hooks so that later on you can come back and you can connect onto the hooks.

当事件发生时，你知道，当某件事发生时，你不一定总能知道结果，但你已经埋下了伏笔，这样以后你就能把这些伏笔接上。

And that when you when you have the incident happen, you know, when, you know, something happens, you don't necessarily always know the results of it, but you've laid the hooks down so that later you can tie onto those hooks.

第二种方法是预先规划情节，比如乔的叔叔被绑架时，你知道是谁干的。

A second way to do is the plotting method where it's when, you know, when Joe's uncle gets kidnapped, you know who kidnapped his uncle.

你完全清楚，你知道那件事的结果。

You know exactly, you know, you know the outcome of that.

现在，钩子式情节之所以很流行，是因为前期工作少。

Now the reason a hook plotting is very popular is it takes less work upfront.

就像我计划好，留下钩子，以后再来解决。

You know, it's like I plan it, leave hooks later, I'll I'll solve it later.

如果你想快速完成，这样能更快。

And if you're trying to do something quickly, it allows you to do it faster.

但缺点是，规划好的版本感觉更好，你知道的。

But the downside is the plotting version has a lot more it just feels better, you know.

而且我常说的，我喜欢看剧时发生什么事，然后你突然想，等等。

And the thing I talk about so, like, I love when you're watching something and something happens and you're like, oh, wait a minute.

四年前他们说过这个。

Four years ago, they said this.

就是这样。

This is this.

你懂吗？

You know?

有时候，你也可以用倒叙法来安排同样的情节，先埋下伏笔。

Now, some you can do that same event with backward plotting with hooks up sometimes.

但最精彩的部分，比如我在《米拉丁》里最喜欢的，就是我们早就知道那些派系已经入侵了。

But the best stuff, like, one of the things I loved about cars in Miradin was we knew in Miradin that the fractions had invaded.

我们埋下了非常微妙的线索，不至于太引人注目，但当我们回头再看时，大家都会惊叹，天哪。

And we laid down very subtle clues, not enough that it drew much attention, but when we were able to go back, people go, oh my god.

他们一直都在那里，你知道吗。

They were there the whole time, you know.

那真是太棒了。

That was awesome.

我特别喜欢做这种事情。

I I love doing stuff like that.

而且，我的意思是，拉夫林说过，我们要多做剧情铺垫。

And, I mean, what Ravling has said is let's do more plotting.

我们要提前想好事情的发展方向。

Let's kind of think out where things are going.

这让我们开始在区块内部也这样做，你知道吗，就是在区块内部。

And that got us to start doing that way interblock, you know, within the block.

这也让我们在区块之间这样做，让我们更清楚事情的来龙去脉，提前规划，知道接下来会发生什么，努力让一切协调起来。

It got us to do that way between blocks that we're more conscious of where things are coming and we're working ahead and knowing what's coming next and trying to make things work together.

所以拉夫尼卡教会了我这一点。

So Ravnica taught me that.

拉夫尼卡还教会了我另一件事，那就是如果你看看拉夫尼卡的机制，我不是说没有一些好的机制，但它们在我看来是二线机制。

Ravnica also taught me another thing which is if you look at the mechanics in Ravnica, I'm not saying there aren't some good mechanics, but they are what I think of as tier two mechanics.

意思是，它们不需要占据太多空间。

Meaning, they don't need to take up as much space.

一线机制必须占据大量空间，而在拉夫尼卡之前的万智牌里，通常关键机制都是一线机制。

A tier one mechanic has to fill a lot of space and usually in magic before Ravnica, like the key mechanics were the tier one mechanics.

他有一些机制，占了很多空间。

He had a couple mechanics, they filled a lot of space.

所以在拉尼卡，我就想，好吧，我们试试不同的方式，因为我需要做四个三三，我知道我需要十个机制。

So long as Ravnica, I'm like, well, let's try a different I'm because I needed to do four three three, I knew I needed 10 mechanics.

所以我说，好的。

So I said, okay.

我不能做大型机制。

I can't do big mechanics.

让我找找更小的机制。

Let me search for smaller mechanics.

然后我发现，我得找一套完全不同的机制，它们有不同的标准。

And what I found was I gotta find a whole different set of mechanics that had a different, like, set of criteria.

你知道吗？

You know?

比如说，有很多机制，你会觉得，我可以做八到十二张牌，如果勉强一点，也许能做十五张，但我做不成一个主要机制。

For example, there are a lot of mechanics where you're like, I can do, you know, eight to 12 maybe of the other card, and maybe 15 if I stretch it, but I can't make a major mechanic.

我做不到一级机制，但，哦，这是个很棒的二级机制。

I can't a tier one mechanic, but, oh, it's an awesome tier two mechanic.

而找到这些空间真的很有帮助。

And that finding the spaces for that really helped.

我从拉尼卡学到的另一件大事是，以前，如果你回顾万智牌，重点总是在机制上，就像，重点在于机制是什么。

The other big thing that I learned from Ravnica was that before before, if you go back at magic, the focus was always on the mechanics and like, it's about what the mechanics were.

我意识到不是机制本身好，不是说我不喜欢这些机制，而是这些机制服务于一个更高的目的。

And what I realized is not the mechanics were good, not that didn't like the mechanics, but the mechanics served a higher purpose.

这个系列不是关于机制的，而是关于主题和公会，机制服务于公会。

The set wasn't about mechanics, the set was about the theme and the, know, about the guilds, and the mechanics served the guilds.

机制不是最前沿的。

The mechanics weren't the forefront.

它们是在后面的。

They were down the road.

它们服务于另一个目的。

They they served another purpose.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，我觉得这很有意思，而且我认为，把机制从营销的焦点变成工具之一，这个转变很关键。

And so, I mean, I think I think that is fascinating and that the like, I I think that shifting mechanics from being the forefront marketing to being one of the tools.

现在，我们当然会用机制来营销，但以前，真的是以前，新系列是什么？

Now, obviously, we market with mechanics, but once literally, once upon a time, what's the new set?

就是这两个机制。

Here's the two mechanics.

我们就是这样卖系列的。

That's how we sold sets.

现在呢，重点是这个系列是什么？

And now it's about what's the set?

是关于这个东西。

It's about this thing.

是关于这些公会。

It's about the guilds.

这是关于非瑞克西亚人和米朗人之间的战争。

It's about a a war between the Phrexians and the Mirans.

这是关于一场被怪物蚕食人类的战争，你知道的。

It's about, you know, this a war torn by, you know, monsters eating away at the humans.

就是说，你试图建立一些有意义的设定，机制服务于目的，而不是为了存在而存在。

You know, like, that you're trying to set some structure that is about something, that is not a the mechanics serve a purpose, and they're not just there to be there.

那么我从拉尼卡还学到了什么？

So what else I learned from Ravnica?

我从拉尼卡学到的另一件事是，我觉得有趣的是，我一直是那种凭直觉行事的人，但拉维尼卡也是那个系列，我觉得随着时间的推移，我越来越接受这个系列本身的样子。

The other thing I learned from Ravnica was I I think that it's funny that I mean, I I've always definitely been one to sort of go with my gut, but Ravenna is also the set where I think what happened over time was I more and more embraced sort of being what the set was.

而且我觉得拉维尼卡是第一个我全力以赴的系列。

And I think that Ravnik was the first set where, like, I went full throttle.

比如，我看像奥德赛这样的系列。

Like, I look at something like Odyssey.

我就想，是的，那是个坟墓场系列，我确实致力于把它做成坟墓场系列，但我并没有那么明确地定义它是什么。

I'm like, yeah, it was a graveyard set, and I definitely committed to being a graveyard set, but I wasn't I wasn't so defined what it was.

而拉尼卡这个系列，我就很清楚它是什么。

And Ravnica was a set where, like, I know what this set is.

我知道它讲的是什么。

I know what it's about.

它的核心本质非常清晰明了。

I like, it was very crystal clear the essence of what it was.

我觉得它教会了我，当我看到大家的反应时，挺有意思的。

And I I think that it taught me, like, once I saw the reaction it's funny.

当时我做拉尼卡的时候，下一个系列是时间漩涡。

At the time when I did Ravnica, the time spiral was coming up next.

我当时觉得时间漩涡会是终极系列，是那种终结所有系列的系列。

And I I thought time spiral was gonna be the be all, end all, like, the set to end all sets.

而拉尼卡，我当时觉得，嗯，这个应该不错，但你知道，我其实很喜欢拉尼卡，人们都在期待时间漩涡。

And Ravnica, I was like, oh, well, I think this is good, but, you know you know, I mean, I I love Ravnica people coming up with time spiral.

结果拉尼卡大获成功，这让我意识到，认同感很重要，要给大家一些能产生共鸣的东西。

And then Ravnica just, you know, went gangbusters, and I think that I it made me realize that, you know, identification is important, that giving people sort of something to connect to.

这让我更加意识到颜色环的力量，颜色如此强大，你只需要把两种颜色放在一起，它们就有意义，有关系，有感觉，你知道吗，那种力量，那种效力。

It made me realize even more of the power of the color wheel that, like, the colors are so powerful that all you had to do is get two colors together and, like, that meant something and it had a relationship and had a a feeling, you know, and that the power of that, the the potency of that.

你知道，因为我们已经非常坚定地让颜色有意义，所以这个想法很重要。

You know, the idea of saying because one of the things that we had done is we've committed very hard to making the colors mean something, you know.

就像我说的，我是颜色环的大师。

And like I said, I'm I'm a color pie guru.

我热爱颜色，我希望颜色有身份。

I I love the colors and I want the colors of identity.

而拉尼卡说，你知道吗？

And what Radnik said is, you know you know what?

颜色太棒了，所以还有下一层可以探索，你可以说，红色代表这个，绿色代表那个。

The colors are so awesome that way there's there's a next layer you can go to that you can say, okay, red means this and green means that.

但是当红色和绿色在一起时会发生什么？

But what happens when red and green get together?

那意味着什么？

What does it mean?

你知道吗，如果红色跟白色、蓝色或黑色搭配会怎样？

You know, what what if red's with white or blue or black, you know?

而且那十种组合每一种都有自己的特色，这真的很厉害。

And that each one of those each one of those 10 combinations took on its own identity, which was, I mean, very potent.

我觉得有趣的是，在拉尼卡那时候，我指定了两种颜色的配对，但Brady提出了公会标识的想法。

And I think the funny thing is, like, what happened during revenue ago was I dictated two color pairs, but Brady brought to the table the idea of this guild identification for the guilds.

一旦我们走上这条路，就像，哦，那我们把颜色哲学应用到颜色配对上去吧。

And that once we went down that path, and it's like, oh, well, let's apply color philosophy to color pairs.

我当时就想，哇，太棒了。

I was like, bam.

这让人很兴奋。

It was exciting.

有趣的是，我当时真的特别激动。

And and the thing that was funny is I was really excited.

所以，有时候设计师就是这样，这正好是我的强项，因为我热爱颜色环。

So this what happens sometimes when you're a designer, which was it was playing right into my wheelhouse, which is I love color pie.

我超喜欢颜色派哲学。

I love color pie philosophy.

所以我就觉得，天哪，太棒了。

So it's like, oh, oh my goodness.

就像是在琢磨红色和绿色搭配起来会怎样，黑色和白色又会产生什么效果，我当时简直着迷了。

It's like figuring out what red and green do together and what black and white do to get, like I was, like, fascinated.

不过我也有点担心，虽然我很着迷，但别人会不会也这样？还是只有我这样？

And I was a little worried and, like, well, I'm fascinated, but while while other people be is this just me?

你知道，因为我太喜欢这个颜色轮了。

You know, because I love the color wheel.

这会不会只是我个人的喜好？因为有时候你会怀疑自己，觉得是不是只有我自己喜欢，而大众并不感兴趣。

Is this just like, you know because sometimes you second guess yourself because, like, if I is it something that I personally love but wouldn't be general?

你懂吧？

You know?

因为，我之前说过，作为设计师，你必须非常小心地理解自己的偏见，因为偏见会影响你的判断，这没关系，但你需要去抵消它们。

Because, like, I I talked about before that one of the things you have to be very careful is understanding your biases because your biases will influence you and that's okay, but you need to offset them.

你得理解这些偏见，这样你的偏见基本上就能被控制住。

You need to understand them so that your biases, you know, are checked essentially.

那个网站确实是我在努力克服自己偏见的地方，因为我真的很喜欢那个概念。

And that was the site where definitely I was trying to check against my own bias because I I loved the concept.

但结果发现，我喜欢的正是大家喜欢的，自我认同是游戏的重要组成部分。

But it turned out that the very thing I love really was what people love, that self identification is important part of the game.

我是说，色轮一直都有这个作用，但公会系统让这一点更精细，十个公会比之前更有细微差别，效果更好。

I mean, color wheel's always done that, but the the guilds allowed it in a little more fine tuned way than having 10 that had a little more nuance to them was a little better.

当然，显然，以后我们会有碎片，也会开始探索三色组合。

I mean, obviously, you know, down the road, we'll we'll have shards and we we start exploring with with three color.

但我觉得三色组合从来没有像双色那样有激情。

But I don't think three color ever quite had the passion of two color.

我觉得三色组合有很多领袖，而双色组合则非常明确。

I think two color three color has a has a lot of lot of leaders going on and where two color is it's pretty clear.

比如，每种双色组合代表什么，非常清楚。

Like, what each two color represents is very clear.

而三色的话，就有点模糊了。

Where three colors, it's a little muddier.

我的意思是，我们在三色世界里做的是确定一个中心颜色。

I mean, what we did in three color world is we made a center color.

所以重点在于中心颜色，以及盟友如何共享这个颜色的本质，这和三色平均分配、每个颜色都平等的情况有点不同。

So it was about the center color and how the the the allies shared the essence of the collar, which is a little bit different from meaning a three collar, which they're all equally equally shared.

关于拉尼卡，我还能说些什么呢？

What else can I say about Ravnica?

我觉得，拉尼卡还教会了我一个概念，就是如何把东西当作粘合剂来用。

I mean, Ravnica also taught me it kinda taught me the the idea of of using things as glue.

这个概念我很少提到，就是在设计一个系列时，怎么用粘合剂来比喻可能不太合适。

This is a concept I haven't talked too much about, which is when you're building a set, how was it maybe glue is a bed metaphor.

所以我打算用乐高来打个比方。

So I'm gonna use a Lego metaphor.

虽然乐高也不太贴切，但想象一下你在搭建什么东西，有些部分可以连接，有些部分需要被连接。

So although Lego doesn't quite do the job, but so imagine you're building something in which some things some things you can attach to and some things need to be attached.

所以基本上，你可以这样理解：有些东西是作为基础的，你可以……好吧。

So essentially, the way to think of this is some things stand as a base and that you can there's okay.

我还是用我的胶水比喻吧。

I'll use my glue metaphor.

它们是有粘性的，你可以把东西粘上去。

That they're sticky, that you can you can stick things to them.

而其他东西，它们本身没有粘性。

And other things, they themselves aren't sticky.

它们需要被粘到有粘性的东西上。

They need to be stuck to a sticky thing.

好的。

Okay.

这个比喻可能不太贴切，但我想说的是，设计中的某些元素天生就和其他东西配合得好，而另一些东西则需要有东西来配合它们。

This metaphor is not necessarily going the way you want, but what I'm trying to say is certain elements of a design essentially work well with other things and other things need something to work with.

在一个系列里，你需要确保系列中有这种胶水，也就是在设计中有……我解释得不太好。

And that in a set, you need to make sure that you have the glue within the set, which is within the design that there are I'm doing I'm not doing the best job explaining this.

在设计里，有……好吧。

In the design, there are okay.

对。

Yeah.

我换个比喻。

I'll change my metaphor.

好。

Okay.

想象我是个建筑师，我是布景的首席设计师，正在打造我的建筑。

Imagine I'm an architect, and I I, the lead designer of a set, am crafting my building.

之后开发团队得实际动手把所有东西组装起来。

Now development will later have to actually, you know, assemble everything.

但现在，我在构思它是什么样。

But right now, I'm I'm crafting what it is.

所以有些东西是装饰性的，有些是承重的。

And so some things are decorative and some things are bearing.

所以我们来看墙。

So we look at walls.

有装饰墙和承重墙。

There's decorative walls and bearing walls.

承重墙就是支撑整栋建筑的墙。

What a bearing wall is is this wall is holding up the building.

你知道，如果有人想移动一堵墙，然后他们移动了这堵墙，那就糟糕了，整栋楼都会塌下来。

You know, if if some person goes, I wanna move a wall and they move this wall, that would be bad news, the building comes tumbling down.

其他的墙是装饰墙，它们在那里，有它们的作用，比如隔开房间，但它们不承担支撑建筑的重任。

Other walls are decorative walls, which means they're there, they're they have a purpose, they're separating a room, but they're not doing the job of holding up the building.

重要的是，当你在搭建你的场景时，你需要分清哪些是承重墙，哪些是装饰墙。

And what what's important is when you are building your set, you need to understand your bearing walls from your decorative walls.

你知道，有些机制承担着场景设计的重量，而其他的则不然。

You know, some mechanics bear the weight of the set design and others do not.

这是我经常和开发团队讨论的事情，因为当你把一个场景交给开发时，他们会先摆弄一番，然后试图找出改进的方法。

And this is something I talk a lot with development because what'll happen is when you take a set and you turn it over to development, they will goof around and then try to figure out how to improve it.