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但在某些情况下，是的，色情内容在特定环境下确实可能对关系产生非常负面的影响，但并非普遍如此。
But in some cases, yes, pornography can have a obviously very negative impact on a relationship in certain circumstances, but not across the board.
所以我开始从‘色情内容是这里的问题’转变为：也许问题并不在于色情内容本身。
So I started going from porn is the bad thing here to, well, maybe it's not the porn itself.
你有没有注意到，我们所生活的这个世界已经替你做了大部分思考？
Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you?
你的信念、认知、反应、恐惧和疑虑，是否都被那些未经请求的外界噪音所塑造？
That your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears, and doubts have been shaped by unsolicited outside noise?
你有多容易就陷入那种默认的梦游状态，并把它当作生活和现实？
How easy it's been for you to slip into that default sleepwalking mode and label it as life and reality.
是的。
Yeah.
到这里就结束了。
That ends here.
欢迎来到《医生说清楚》。
Welcome to the Make Sense with Doctor.
JC播客。
JC podcast.
这是你开始独立思考、重获掌控权，并重新成为自己现实中的主导力量和冲击项圈的机会。
This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and step back into that role as the shock collar and dominant force of your own reality.
当你改变看待事物的方式时，你所看的事物就开始发生变化。
It's when you change the way that you look at things that the things that you look at begin to change.
让我们清醒过来。
So let's wake up.
让我们崛起，弄清楚转变为何发生以及如何发生。
Let's rise up, and let's make sense of why and how shift happens.
有道理。
Makes sense.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我很少有机会对人们说这句话。
I don't get to say this too often to people.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
天啊，在七十到八十位嘉宾中，只有大约四位回到这个新节目第二次。
God, out of like seventy, eighty guests, there's only been like four that have been back for a second time on this new show.
欢迎再次来到《Dr. JC的现在明白了》节目，海瑟·尼尔森。
So welcome back Heather Nielsen to the Now Makes Sense with Dr.
JC播客。
JC podcast.
是的，我很兴奋。
Yeah, I'm excited.
我觉得这很有趣，因为我的思维方式发生了巨大的转变，所以我很高兴能分享这些新想法、新发现和更新。
I think this is fun because I've had such a kind of radical change in thinking, so I'm excited to be able to kind of share those new thoughts, share kind of my new discoveries and update.
这里是做这件事的完美地方。
This is the perfect place to do this.
我一直以来钦佩你，现在也是如此，你始终保持着不懈怠的状态。
What I've always admired then and now is that you've always operated at a state of unlaziness.
你不是一个懒惰的人。
You're not a lazy person.
我的意思是，无论你是在领导‘对抗野兽’的使命，还是像我们现在要讨论的那样在OnlyFans上建立个人品牌，你始终都是有意识地在做这些事。
And what I mean by that is whether you're leading the Fight The Beast mission or as we're gonna discuss now building a presence on OnlyFans, you've always been intentional about it.
不是每个人都能这么说，始终有意识，而且从不盲目行事。
Not everybody can say that, always been intentional and also never mindless about it.
在我们的节目中，我们总是说：欢迎来到沉睡大众的觉醒运动。
On our show, we always say welcome to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses.
所以我从没把你视为其中一员。
So I never looked at you as part of that.
你的人生始终充满信念。
And you move through life with conviction.
我们讨论过很多这类话题，很多人可能觉得这些观点非常激进，但你从来不是出于无知才去做这些事的。
We've had discussions about all this stuff that a lot of people might think is like super radical and all that stuff, but you've never come from a place of like not knowing why you're doing things.
我觉得这真的很棒。
And I think that's really cool.
我认为这将是本次讨论的一部分。
And I think that'll be part of this discussion.
你并不是那种只是随波逐流地参与所谓数字创作者经济的人。
And you're not somebody that's just drifting through what's called the, you know, the digital creator economy here.
你是在驾驭这场整体运动，而且有着正当的动机。
You're you're someone that's navigating this whole movement here, but with justifiable intentions.
我非常尊重那些能在可能充满张力的对话中直面它、不逃避的人，因为我觉得这才是人们真正需要的东西。
I very much respect somebody that can sit in a conversation that has potential tension to it without hiding from it, you know, because that's the kind of stuff that I think people really need.
我认为人们需要真实的东西。
I think people need real stuff.
所以，总之，这就是我喜欢你的地方，希瑟。
So anyway, that's what I like about you, Heather.
是的。
Yeah.
我真的很感激。
I really appreciate that.
我觉得你真正触及到了对我来说非常重要的一点。
And I think that is you really touched on something important to me.
这正是我在戒除色情和现在的OnlyFans领域中传达的核心信息。
That's a core part of just my message in both the porn recovery and the now kind of OnlyFans space.
这两个领域都强调了对性行为的有意为之。
Both ones are centered on intentionality with your sexuality.
这对我来说非常重要，因为我看到当人们缺乏意图、变得粗心、不思考行为影响时，会如何影响他人。
And that's really important to me because I see how it affects people when you're not intentional, when you get careless, when you're not thinking through, know, what's the impact here.
是的。
Yeah.
如今这种情况非常普遍。
And there's a lot of that going on today.
为了提供一些背景，因为这是全新的观众群体，我想确保大家了解一点我们的历史以及我们初次相识的背景。
Just to put context because this is a whole new audience and I just wanna make sure that people know a little bit about the history and when we first met.
所以请带我们回到‘Fight The Beast’的时期，我知道那个项目至今仍在继续，但请回忆一下我们当初相遇时的情景，那时你试图解决什么问题？
So take us back to the Fight The Beast and I know that that's still happening but take us back to the days where we first met with Fight The Beast and what problem was it that you were trying to solve at that time?
你能带我们回到那时吗？
If you could take us back there.
是的，我从小在非常虔诚的环境中长大，这显然塑造了我的性观念。
Yeah, so I grew up very religious and for me that kind of obviously dictated my sexuality.
但这从来不是一件负面的事。
And it was never a negative thing.
对我来说，从来没有过羞耻感。
There was never any shame for me.
但性行为中有一种神圣和庄严的感觉，我觉得自己深深感受到那种传教士般的使命感。
But there was this kind of holiness and sacredness around sexuality that I think I felt very, you know, it's kind of that missionary mentality.
我感到自己被召唤去向他人分享这种非常具体而严格的性观念。
I felt very called to share this very specific rigid view of sexuality with people.
我能看到其中的好处，对吧？
And I could see the benefits, right?
因为我认为我们每个人都有偏见。
Because I think we all have biases.
所以我看到了这种生活方式的好处，比如，我注意到那些在结婚前保持贞洁的人，通常婚姻也更稳固。
So I was seeing the benefits of, okay, well, I see that people who live a certain way, you know, they're virgins until they get married, and they usually stay married.
我看到了这些好处，因此我自己的偏见让我觉得，除非你做到X、Y、Z，否则注定会不幸福。
And I see these benefits and so my own biases say, okay, well, unless you do x y z, you're destined for unhappiness.
所以对于色情内容，我认为它对人们确实有负面影响。
And so with porn, I saw porn as definitely having a negative impact on people.
它也对我的生活造成了负面影响。
It had negatively impacted my life.
七年前，我身边没有男人，因为我的两个孩子，我都离过两次婚。
I didn't have a man in my life, seven years ago because both of my kids I've been divorced twice.
我两个孩子的生父都经历过这些。
Both my kids' dads had experience with that.
因此，我因为自己成长过程中遇到的父亲和继父，把色情内容妖魔化了。
And so I kind of villainized it because of that, the father and stepfather I grew up with.
所以我只是在观察这种影响如何作用于我周围男性的生活，那些经历过离婚的朋友、教会里的人，还有我的整个社群和朋友。
And so kind of I'm just, seeing the influence of this on the lives of the men around me, different friends who had gone through divorces, people at church, just my community, my friends.
我看到了色情内容对男性造成的巨大影响。
And I saw the huge impact that pornography had on men.
从我的角度来看，这意味着这一切都是有害的，我希望成为改变的一部分。
And from my perspective, meant, Okay, all of this is bad and I wanted to be a part of a change.
正如你一开始说的，我非常有动力去产生影响并带来积极的改变。
I'm very, like you said in the beginning, kind of very motivated to make a difference and have a positive impact.
于是我开始致力于帮助男性克服色情成瘾，从‘色情有害’的角度出发，帮助人们戒除。
And so I set out to really just help men overcome porn addiction from the perspective of porn is bad, let's help people quit.
那时候，我想回到过去，因为我记得我们的对话。
Back then, I just wanna go back then because I remember our conversation.
我回去重听了我们上一期的节目。
I went back and I listened and watched our last episode.
我想明确地说，你一点都没变。
And I just wanna for the record say, you haven't changed.
你还是同一个人，只是目标可能不同了，解释方式也不同了。
You're still the same person, just different mission perhaps, different explanation.
当你观察婚姻中的动态时，我是个已婚男人，那时候我只是觉得，色情内容似乎是许多关系中的一个重大问题。
When you look at the dynamics of a marriage, I'm a married man, back then it just appears that you were just looking at porn as as like a major major problem that a lot of relationships had.
所以你是想说，你现在能够回过头来看，意识到自己可能因为自己的婚姻经历以及成长背景而变得有些偏颇或有偏见吗？
So are you saying that you now have the ability to look back and see that you were maybe jaded or tainted because of your own relationship and also the way that you were brought up?
我不觉得我的观点主要是因为婚姻而变得偏颇。
I don't know that it was so much jaded because of my relationship.
我在大学里学习了婚姻与家庭科学。
I studied marriage and family science in college.
所以，再次强调，我在一所基督教私立大学就读，我的观点可能有些偏颇。
And so, again, going to a Christian private university, my views were probably a little biased.
因此，我主要关注的是那些伴侣中有一方观看色情内容更容易离婚的统计数据。
And so I saw, you know, mostly focused on the statistics of marriages where, you know, one partner watches pornography or more likely to get divorced.
这些统计数据确实有其分量，但我当时只关注支持我观点的数据。
And those statistics do have weight, but I was focusing on the statistics that supported my opinion.
随着时间推移，我逐渐退后一步，开始更多地阅读研究资料——大约五年后，我意识到，我不能再否认这些研究了。
And as I stepped back over time and I started, you know, really just reading more and more research about five years in, I I go, I can't keep denying the research.
我不能再把所有研究都称为阴谋了。
I can't keep calling all of the research a conspiracy.
我仍然相信在某些情况下，我们会讨论那些例外是什么。
Well, I do still believe in some cases, and we'll talk about what the exceptions are.
但在某些情况下，是的，色情内容在特定环境下确实可能对关系造成非常负面的影响，但并非普遍如此。
But in some cases, yes, pornography can have a obviously very negative impact on a relationship in certain circumstances, but not across the board.
于是我开始从‘色情是问题所在’转变为：也许问题并不在色情本身，因为我已经与成千上万的人交谈过。
So I started going from porn is the bad thing here to, well, maybe it's not the porn itself because I've talked to thousands of people.
我的意思是，也有很多成功的著名例子，以及普通夫妻也是如此。
I mean, there are plenty of successful famous examples of this as well as everyday couples.
我有一些朋友会一起观看色情内容。
I have friends that watch pornography together.
他们拥有美好而充满爱的婚姻。
They have fantastic loving marriages.
我们也会遇到这种情况：一方观看，另一方不看，但他们依然拥有充满爱意的幸福婚姻。
We get to this point or where one partner does it and the other doesn't and they still have a loving happy marriage.
所以我开始意识到，这并不是一个普遍性的问题，我们不能一味地把这件事妖魔化，因为它并非在所有情况下都是问题。
So I started going, okay, it's not a problem across the board, we can't just keep villainizing the thing because it's not a universal problem.
这里有一些因素会影响它是否构成问题。
There's factors here that influence whether or not it's a problem.
就像酒精一样。
Kinda like alcohol.
酒精并不是对所有人都有害，但对某些人来说，它确实非常危险。
Like, alcohol is not bad for everybody, but for some people, it's really really dangerous.
我刚刚在脑海中想到的一个类比是，很多家庭都有自己关于饮食的信仰体系。
The analogy I was just drawing in my head is there are a lot of families out there that have belief systems about what they eat.
比如有些人不吃肉，孩子就是在这种环境中长大的。
Like there's certain people that don't eat meat, for instance, and children are brought up that way.
然后有一天，他们和朋友在一起时吃了汉堡，心想：等等，这味道还挺不错的。
And then there's that day that they're hanging out with their friends and they have a burger and they're like, wait a second, this tastes pretty good.
这和我之前被告诉的不一样。
This is not what I was told, know.
有太多不同的因素，但我觉得从这一点中得出的结论是，我在书中经常谈到，我们在年幼时从母亲、父亲、老师、牧师那里接收到的那些观念。
There's so many different elements but I think my takeaway from that is I talk a lot about in my book, the programming that we receive when we're young from our mother, father, teacher, preacher.
这就是为什么我总是允许人们拥有自己的观点，因为我深知观点是如何形成的。
That's why I always allow people to have their own opinion because I know how opinions formed.
你知道，如果我回想起第一次见到你的时候，我们的想法几乎是一致的，但两个人永远不可能完全一致。
Know, if I go back to when I first met you, we were pretty much aligned, but two people are never perfectly aligned.
但如果你能意识到，人们只是在投射他们成长过程中所受的影响，类似这样的东西。
But if you have the sense about you to recognize that people are always just projecting some sort of a reflection of how they were raised and stuff like that.
这其实也和我们如何教育孩子类似。
And it's kinda how we parent kids too.
比如，孩子有时会说一些疯狂的话，我们只是说：哦，好吧，让你多经历一些生活，也许有一天你会有自己的领悟。
Like kids say crazy stuff sometimes and we just say like, oh, well, let's let you have a little bit more life one day and maybe you'll come up with something.
所以是的。
So Yeah.
我很好奇想了解的是，因为我们已经讨论过这个话题，我知道你有你的看法，但请你展望一下，给我们稍微解释一下那个时刻。
What I'm curious to know, because we've had conversations and I know that you have a perspective about it, but fast forward, explain to us a little bit about that moment.
据我了解，你不仅仅是考虑过这个想法，还成为了这个平台OnlyFans的顶级创作者之一。
Because from what I understand, you didn't just entertain the idea, you became like one of the top producers with this platform, OnlyFans.
所以，真正令人惊讶的是，你真的取得了很大的成功。
So I mean, like that's what's so crazy about it is like you actually found a lot of success.
但最早是什么时候，这个可能性第一次进入你的脑海的呢？
But what was the first moment when that possibility first entered your mind?
我真的很想了解一些关于这个的细节。
Like I'd love to know a little bit about that.
这是一个巨大的转变，你知道，你可能是一步步慢慢进入的，但最初是什么时候这个可能性进入你脑海的？你做决定的主要依据是什么？
That's a big jump, know, so you probably kind of moved into it somewhat slowly, but what was that first moment when the possibility entered your mind and what was the primary foundation that you made your decision?
好吧，这真的很有趣。
Okay, so this is really interesting.
如果我要对你完全坦诚的话，有三个主要因素，好吗？
And if I'm going to be a 100% honest with you, there were three primary factors, okay?
它们都被分别归入了不同的范畴。
And they're all compartmentalized into their own space.
第一个原因是，我们这里不多谈，但有一些个人因素。
The first one is, we won't get into this one too much here, but there were personal factors.
有一些感情上的痛苦，有个朋友做了些事，我经历了一些事，让我觉得：去他的。
There was some relationship pain, some friend did something, some some stuff that happened to me where I was like, screw it.
我不在乎了。
I don't care.
我不在乎了。
I don't care.
我经历了六年半的禁欲。
I I had six and a half years of abstinence.
然后我就想：算了，不玩了。
And then I was like, forget this.
我真的有点精神崩溃了。
Like, I just I had a personal breakdown a little bit.
但还有另一个原因，我们也不深入谈这个，但当时我已经连续五年拼命工作，作为女性在色情成瘾康复领域建立了一个国际性的业务，那时我已经是这个领域的领军人物，远在别人纷纷涌入之前，人们都告诉我：我以前根本没听说过这个。
But then there was also there was this, again, we won't go into this one too deeply either, but there was this moment of I had been working my absolute butt off for five years building internationally reaching business in porn recovery as a woman, as a really leader in the space before everyone and their brother had a porn recovery organization, people were telling me like, I've never even heard of this before.
当我刚开始在TikTok上做这件事时，可能只有一两个人在做。
When I started it on TikTok, there was maybe one or two other people doing it.
现在这已经很常见了，但当时极其罕见，非常不寻常。
Now it's much more common, but it was extremely rare, extremely unusual.
我一直在大力推动这个领域的发展。
And I was really pushing that space forward.
但我一直拼命工作，直到有一天突然想到：我到底在对我的孩子做些什么？
But I had been working so hard that there was this moment of one day going, what am I doing to my kids?
我正在培养未来的游戏成瘾者。
I'm raising future porn addicts.
如果我忽视我的儿子们，对他们大喊大叫，赶他们出房间，只为了拼命打拼一个耗尽我、却回报甚少的事业，那会怎样？
If I'm ignoring my boys and yelling at them, telling them to get out of my room because I'm working my butt off, trying to, you know, build a business that is taking more from me than giving.
说白了，我成了帮助别人解决他们问题的奴隶，却忽视了自己的孩子。
You know, it's like I'm I've become a slave to helping other people with their problems while ignoring my kids.
所以人们会说：‘哦，你只是为钱才这么做的。’
So people are like, oh, you just did it for the money.
我说，我这么做是为了能多陪陪家人。
And I'm like, I did it to be with my family more.
我当时深入钻研了希腊哲学，心想：你知道吗？
And there was this I I got very deep into, like, Greek philosophy with that where I said, you know what?
《奥德赛》真的深深影响了我的思维方式。
The Odyssey really kind of shaped my thinking.
我开始思考奥德修斯是如何应对各种境遇的。
And I started thinking about how Odysseus moves through things.
有一首关于《奥德赛》史诗的音乐剧歌曲里有一句台词。
And there's a quote from a song, a musical that was written about the Odyssey epic.
他说：无情，其实是对自己的一种仁慈。
And he says, ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves.
这句话深深印在我心里，我想：是啊。
And I kinda started it really got into my head, I was like, yeah.
为什么我要拼命去拯救别人，却伤害了自己的孩子？
Like, why am I trying to save people while hurting my kids?
所以，从经济角度来看，我想成为一名全职家庭主妇。
So there was kind of this financial aspect of, like, I wanna be a stay at home mom.
OnlyFans 比康复更容易。
OnlyFans is easier than recovery.
所以，确实有这一面。
So there is that side.
我们先把这一点放一边。
We'll set that aside.
我认为第三个因素非常重要。
The third element I think is really, really important.
我开始因为意识到自己在教授伪科学而感到精疲力尽。
And it's I started getting really worn down by realizing that I was teaching pseudoscience.
这种负担变得非常沉重，持续了大约六个月，我一直觉得：我可能在欺骗别人。
And that became very heavy to the point where I was like, it was probably a six month phase where I was like, I think I'm lying to people.
我觉得我自己就是问题的一部分。
I think I'm part of the problem.
举几个例子，我意识到，内疚和羞耻才是导致成瘾的真正原因。
A couple examples of that is I realized, we can go into each of these in-depth if you want, but I realized that guilt and shame is literally what causes addiction.
比如在色情内容的研究中，我们对比了认为看色情内容没问题的人和被教育说这很错误的人。
People who when we have control groups within pornography for people who believe it's okay versus people who were taught that it's wrong.
那些认为看色情内容没问题的人，通常不会出现任何成瘾的负面症状。
The people who believe it's okay typically don't have any negative symptoms of addiction.
而只有那些被灌输‘这是错的’观念的人，才会出现成瘾症状。
Whereas only the people who believe it's wrong have symptoms of addiction.
一个无神论者戒掉色情内容的速度，可能比一个虔诚的宗教信徒还快。
An atheist can quit porn faster than somebody who's deeply religious.
像这样的小事，我开始意识到它们背后承载着巨大的重量。
So little things like that, I just started seeing weight.
比如在TikTok上告诉人们‘你有色情成瘾，这很糟糕，你是个糟糕的人’，他们回家后反而会沉迷 binge 观看。
Like, by telling people on TikTok they have a porn addiction and porn addiction is bad and they're horrible people, they go home and binge when they hear that stuff.
所以我从未想过，我的两个账号会分别进入前0.25%。
And so I never imagined I had two separate accounts reach top 0.25%.
所以，两个独立账号都进入了前0.25%。
So top zero, quarter percent, two separate accounts.
我不知道这具体意味着什么，但我的增长简直不可思议。
So I don't know what that translates to, but I had unbelievable growth.
我从来没想过会发生这种事。
I never imagined that to happen.
我原本只是想发几张自己的照片，说一句：我接受自己的身体。
I originally thought it would be I'm just gonna put not but, like, I'm just gonna post a few pictures of myself to say, I'm okay with my body.
我接受裸体，本质上是这样。
I'm okay with nudity, essentially.
我不害怕人体。
I'm not scared of human bodies.
你也不该害怕。
You shouldn't be either.
然后它像野火一样蔓延开来，彻底改变了我的人生。
And then it spread like wildfire, changed my whole life.
我当时就想，哎呀，这可真没想到。
And I was like, whoops, that was unexpected.
那是一种什么样的体验？
What was that like?
我的意思是，这是一个重大的决定。
I mean, it was a big decision.
在我看来，似乎发生了一些你没有详细提及的事件。
And it sounds to me like there's a couple of events that happened that you didn't really really go into.
但在我看来，其中一部分是你逐渐走出了自己的壳。
But it sounds to me like part of it was you kinda coming out of your shell perhaps.
也许你和某人约会了，或者类似的情况，你一直这样生活了很久，也许你只是觉得，甚至在OnlyFans之前，你就已经开始想：等等，我要允许自己稍微享受一下，允许自己表达自我。
Maybe you dated somebody or something and you had been this way for so long and maybe you just felt like but even before OnlyFans, you kinda felt like, wait a second, I'm gonna allow myself to have a little bit of fun or allow myself to to express myself.
这么说安全吗？这些方面是不是确实发生了这样的事？
Is that safe to say that that's kinda what happened in those areas?
老实说，我不确定是不是这样。
I don't know if it was I'll be honest.
其实我进入那个阶段时，有一点反派能量，我在推特上也调侃过这一点。
There was I have, you know, Twitter joked about this, but I had a little bit of villain energy going into that.
与其说是报复，不如说老实讲，我确实有一点‘你懂的’那种心态。
It was more I don't wanna say it was revenge, but it there was a little if I'm honest Gotcha.
我是人，你知道的。
Like, I'm human, you know.
我曾经受过伤，再也不想谈感情了。
There was there was this little bit of I've been hurt and I don't want relationships anymore.
那成了我释放过去所经历痛苦的一种方式。
And that was kind of my way of releasing the pain of what I had been through.
所以这招奏效了，你知道的，之后我感觉好多了，但更多是作为一种释放痛苦的途径。
And so it worked, you know, I know I went better after that, but it was more of like a releasing my pain.
但不管怎样，这又只是个次要方面。
But anyway, again, that was like a secondary aspect.
在商业层面，我花了超过六个月的时间反复思考这个决定。
On the business side, I took more than again, I think I took about six months of thinking through that decision.
然后我花了整整一个月的时间，告诉自己：好吧，我想朝这个方向走，但我要再花四周时间，与我的教练、朋友以及我平时寻求建议的人交流，确保这不是一时冲动，不是鲁莽行事，而是我真的相信：性取向不应该成为我们羞辱他人的理由。
And then I had a solid month where I said, okay, I want to go this direction, but I'm gonna spend another four weeks talking to my coach, talking to my friends, talking to the people in my life that I go to for mentoring and making sure that this isn't impulsive, this isn't reckless, that this is really because I truly believe that sexuality should not be like, we can't be shaming people for what they want.
而同情心是其中非常关键的一部分，你知道的。
And having so much compassion, compassion was a huge part of it, you know.
我刚刚与数百人，甚至可能是数千名男性交谈过，他们向我倾诉了内心最深、最黑暗的秘密，在电话里为他们感受到的羞耻感而哭泣。
I had just talked to probably, I don't know, hundreds, if not thousands of men who shared their deepest, darkest secrets with me, who cried on the phone about the shame that they felt.
这真的让我心碎，我不禁想：为什么有这么多男性感到如此羞耻？因为我们一直羞辱男性，让他们相信所有的欲望都是可怕的。
And that just really started breaking my heart where I was like, why do so many men feel so ashamed Like of we've shamed men to believe that all lust is just horrible.
我确实这么做过。
I did.
我写过很多文章，制作过很多视频，宣扬欲望是邪恶的。
I had wrote plenty of articles, made plenty of videos on how like lust is bad.
然后我突然意识到，我不想再这样下去了。
And then I just kind of realized that, I don't know, I didn't wanna be like that anymore.
我不再想因为某种生物上自然的事情而羞辱男性。
I didn't want to be shaming men for something that's biologically natural.
是的。
Yeah.
这太有趣了，你知道吗？因为现在，就人类整体而言，围绕这个话题的人群出现了各种分裂和对立，有些人曾经说：‘是的，希瑟，加油。’
It's so fascinating, you know, because right now, just knowing humans in general, there's just all these bifurcations and fractions of people that are on different sides of this topic and like people that like used to be like, oh, yes, Heather, go.
但现在他们却说：‘我现在讨厌她了。’
And now they're like, I hate her now.
而还有一些人说：‘欢迎来到真实世界，我们很高兴你加入。’
And then there's also people that are saying like, well, welcome to the real world, we're happy to have you.
所以我特别喜欢这一点。
So I love that.
从我的角度来看，人生是用来体验的，而你现在正在真实地生活，之前你只是活在一个泡泡里，无论你站在哪一边。
And just from my perspective, life is something that's meant to be lived and you're living it and you were living in a bubble before, whether you were on either side.
有些人从未体验过宗教及其理念的好处，他们站在另一端，对这一切有着完全不同的看法。
There's people that have never experienced the benefits of religion and that concept, and they're on the other side and they've just like have a totally different approach to it.
昨天有人在我发的内容下留言，或者可能是给我发了私信。
Somebody commented yesterday on something I posted and they were like, or maybe they sent me a DM.
他们说，再过几个月，你就会像行业里其他人一样，重新回去教书，做港口恢复工作。
They said something like, oh, you know, in few more months, you're just gonna go back to teaching, you know, port recovery like everyone else does when they leave the industry.
我对此只是笑了笑，觉得太有趣了。
And I I just kind of to that effect, I think it's so funny.
是的，我们会不断在这些不同的思维方式之间来回切换。
Yes, we move in and out of these different ways of thinking.
有些人从小就是无神论者，后来信了宗教，经历了这些时刻，然后又离开了宗教，又有了新的体悟。
Sometimes people will I know people who have grown up atheists, moved into religion, had these moments, and then moved out of religion again and had new moments.
所以我们是在这些不同的理念、不同的存在方式、不同的世界观之间流动。
So it's like we flow through these different concepts, different ways of being, different ways of seeing the world.
我认为这是一个美妙的过程。
And I think that's a beautiful process.
我对自己的态度并不僵化，我也鼓励人们继续探索，保持开放的心态。
I'm not rigid with myself and I encourage people to continue exploring that and be open minded.
从你现在的立场出发，你会如何回答这个问题？
How would you answer this question coming from where you're at right now?
你觉得整个过程更像是一种矛盾，还是一种演变？
Do you kinda see this whole thing as a contradiction or more of like an evolution?
你会怎么回答这个问题？
How would you answer that?
是的，绝对是演变。
Yeah, definitely evolution.
对我来说，这其中很大一部分原因，我也经常在我的YouTube频道里谈到。
For me, a huge part of this was also, and I talk about this a lot on my YouTube channel.
我会详细说明我做出这个决定的原因，因为我需要向很多人解释。
I go into detail of exactly why I made this decision, because I had a lot of people to explain that to.
其中很多都与我从宗教背景转向更偏向超验主义的思维方式有关，我变得更加开放，认为每个人都在某种程度上发现属于自己的真理，而这没问题。
And a lot of it had to do with my transition to more of a kind of more of like maybe transcendentalism thinking as opposed to my religious background, being more open minded that we each kind of discover our own truth in a way and that that's okay.
这样是健康的，对一个人来说健康的东西，未必对另一个人也健康。
And then that's healthy and that what's healthy for one person may not necessarily be healthy for another.
所以，我就跟你说一件事吧。
And so just, well, I'll tell you one thing.
我曾被灌输过许多观念，认为那些事情关乎生死，但不说我六年的禁欲经历这种过于私密的细节，就像你提到的汉堡比喻，我突然意识到，天啊，我其实病得很严重，而正是禁欲让我生病。
So many things I've been taught were at the end of the world and without going into TMI coming out of my six and a half years of abstinence, like your burger analogy, I realized, holy crap, like, I was so sick and it was abstinence that was making me sick.
当我打破禁欲后，我才意识到，哇，我的身体确实需要这个。
Like, when I broke that, I was like, wow, my body actually physically needs this.
我之前一直有月经周期的问题，结果在七年内立刻消失了。
I had problems with my menstrual cycle that went away immediately for seven years.
我几乎为此挣扎了七年。
I've been struggling almost seven years.
我一直受这些问题困扰，然后它们突然就消失了。
I've been struggling with those issues and then they just went away.
于是我意识到，也许我通过宗教、通过这些关于性行为应该如何的僵化观念所学到的东西，其实并不对。
And I was like, I just realized, Okay, well, maybe what I've been taught through religion, through, you know, these rigid ideas and concepts of what sexuality should be, right, that should work.
别人都在告诉我该怎么做。
Everyone else telling me what I should do.
我立刻反应过来：不对，那些都是错的。
Instantly, went, wait, that was wrong, though.
那是错的。
That was wrong.
我因为按照应该做的方式做事而生病了。
I was sick because of doing things the way I should do them.
听起来你似乎也意识到，你当时对别人也做了类似的事。
And it sounds like you kind of recognize that you were kind of doing that to other people as well.
你之前说过，你不希望自己成为那种人。
You said before you didn't wanna be part of that.
在我的数据和统计中，我看到男性变得更加抑郁，身体在某些情况下也变得更虚弱。
In my own data and statistics, I saw men getting more depressed and their body becoming, in some cases, weaker.
不是每个人都是这样。
Not in everyone.
有些男性从禁欲中获得了力量，有些男性则经历了抑郁和荷尔蒙失衡。
Some men experienced strength from absence, some men experienced depression and hormone imbalance.
于是我意识到，等等，这并不是一刀切的。
And so I realized, wait a second, this is not a one size fits all.
我们不能一概而论地告诉人们该如何生活，因为这行不通。
We can't just blanket tell people how to be because that doesn't work.
是的，这很有趣。
Yeah, it's fascinating.
我的意思是，关于这个话题，我们能展开无数的讨论。
I mean, there's so many conversations that we could go off on there.
但在我看来，这部分是你必须先允许自己或与内心某种东西和解，才能深入探索。
But it sounds to me like part of this was that you had to almost allow or reconcile something inside of yourself before dipping into this.
你花了六个月时间，似乎还咨询了那些了解你的人。
You took that six months, sounds like you consulted with people that knew you well.
所以你并不是盲目地去做这件事。
And so it wasn't something you just blindly did.
结果证明，这不仅在财务上带来了巨大收益，也让你敞开了心扉。
It turned out to be a great thing both financially, but also opened you up.
但我想知道，你内心必须面对并克服的‘心魔’到底是什么？或者，你必须与内心什么部分和解，才能做到这一点？
But what was it that I guess what demon inside of you did you have to kind of exercise or what was it that you had to kind of like reconcile inside of you to be able to do it?
因为还有另一个方面，即使你没有这段与‘对抗野兽’相关的整个历史和故事，但这样做仍然可能非常可怕，你知道的，让谁知道谁在看。
Because there's also the other aspect of like, even if you didn't have this whole history with Fight The Beast and that whole story, that's potentially a very scary thing to do to, you know, let who's who knows who's watching.
那么，你是如何经历这个过程，跳入这个池子的呢？
So how did you go through that process, like, to jump into that pool?
是的。
Yeah.
关于这一点，我还有几个补充。
A couple side points on that.
首先，有一件事确实让这件事没那么可怕，那就是早就已经有很多我的深度伪造视频了。
First of all, one thing that definitely helped it not be scary was the fact that there were already lots of deep fakes of me.
人们已经在使用我的内容了。
People are were already using my content.
当时就已经有人在说，天哪。
There was already like, oh, no.
要是你的孩子看到了怎么办？
What if your kids see something?
好吧，你猜怎么着？
Well, guess what?
AI 已经在制作我的内容了。
AI was already making stuff of me.
所以我就
So I
我想，算了。
was like, fine.
如果别人反正都要制作，那还不如我来。
If other people are gonna be making stuff anyway, might as well.
这真是个很奇怪的事，那是另一个话题了，我们生活的世界真的很奇怪。
Which is a really weird that's a whole other topic, really weird world we live in.
但与其说我在与一个恶魔搏斗，不如说我已经被它拖垮了。
But it wasn't necessarily that I was working through a demon as much as it was I was exhausted by it.
所以我一直都在想，就拿我的名字‘Fight The Beast’来说吧。
So I had been, you know, think about just my name, Fight The Beast.
因为我一直在想，我该如何把这个公司转化过来？
Because I was thinking about how can I just translate this company?
我该如何在不深陷其中的情况下让公司发展？
How can I evolve the company without going, you know, into the deep end?
但我做不到。
And I couldn't.
我根本无法修改我的书。
There was no way for me to edit my book.
我只能重写整本书。
I would have to just rewrite the entire thing.
我得改掉这个名字。
I'd have to change the name.
我正朝着超验主义的方向发展，我的信念几乎已经转向了内在的平静，更偏向东方宗教。
Moving more towards transcendentalism, it's almost incorporated my beliefs shifted more to just inner peace, maybe more Eastern religion.
我不确定。
I don't know.
但我刚刚意识到，我不想再与任何事物抗争了。
But I just realized I don't wanna fight anything anymore.
对。
Right.
所以就连‘抗争’这个概念，我之前都处于极强的男性能量中——对抗野兽、超阳刚的标志、超阳刚的品牌。
And so even just the concept of fighting, I had been in high masculine energy, fight the beast, super masculine logo, super masculine brand.
我帮助过30多个国家的男性。
I'd helped men in over 30 countries.
这可是个非常男性化的领域。
Like, this is a very masculine domain.
我最终到了一个地步，只想说：我厌倦了去扮演一个男人，不是要和男人竞争，而是我真的再也无法继续待在这个阳刚的对抗空间里了。
And I just got to the point where I just said, I'm exhausted of trying to be a man, trying to compete not compete with men, but, like, I just couldn't do this masculine fight space anymore.
于是我渐渐退了出来。
And I just kind of stepped apart.
这是通过关系，转向我内在的女性面后意识到的：看，我真的不想再和任何人抗争了。
That was through relationships, into my own feminine and said, look, I I don't I don't wanna be fighting anyone.
我不再想与任何人对立。
I don't wanna be opposed to anyone.
我不想要，我不知道。
I don't wanna be I don't know.
我逐渐培养出更多的爱与尊重，不仅对我客户。
And I just I developed more love and respect not only for my clients.
所以我想，一开始的时候，我会觉得：呸，你居然看色情内容。
So I think in the beginning, it was like, ew, you watch porn.
真恶心。
Gross.
但经过五年的时间，我改变了想法：不，不是这样的。
Whereas over the course of five years, I was like, no.
这些人都是非常普通的普通人。
These people are incredible normal people.
他们其实是快乐的人。
Like, they're they're happy people.
他们是充满爱的人。
They're loving people.
我合作的这些人都很好。
These are good guys that I'm working with.
我逐渐对他们产生了更多的爱与尊重，对这个行业里的女孩也有了新的看法，不再像以前那样了。
And I just developed more love and respect for them, more love and respect for girls in the industry where I was like, no.
她们并不是肮脏、可怕的人。
They're not they're not trashy, horrible people.
她们有着美好的故事。
Like, they have a beautiful story.
我现在对所有人充满了爱与尊重，再也无法与任何人对抗了。
And I just now have just so much love and respect for everybody that I couldn't fight anything anymore.
这简直就像野兽改变了形态。
It's almost like the beast changed shapes.
曾经的野兽是那种对抗的心态。
It's like the beast was the fight now.
就好像你觉得自己在攻击。
It's like you thought you were attacking.
我们总是在与某些东西抗争，但有时候，斗争本身就是要停止斗争。
We're always fighting against something but sometimes just the fight is to just stop the fight.
所以我想稍微聊聊这个行业，因为现在有非常了解它的人，也有完全站在另一端的人——可能就像你以前所处的立场，而他们此刻正在听这期节目。
So I wanna get a little bit into the industry because we've got people that are like very knowledgeable about it and then there's people that are just completely on the other side, maybe the side that you used to be in that are for whatever reason listening to this episode right now.
我总觉得这很有趣，你知道吗？我妻子是一名性治疗师，你可以想象，她的词汇量和人生经历都非常丰富。
I always find it interesting, you know, my wife is a sex therapist and as you can imagine, she's got a pretty interesting vocabulary and experience in the world.
我的意思是，有各种各样的癖好和东西。
I mean, there's kink and all kinds of stuff.
我们以前一起做这个播客。
And we used to do this podcast together.
我们总是发现，当我们查看数据时，我们的最大听众群体竟然来自《圣经》带地区。
And we always found it interesting when we would look at our metrics, how our biggest audience was like in the Bible belt.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
就像，可能有很多人躲在柜子里听这个播客。
Like, there was just so many people that were probably like in their closets listening to that podcast.
我想聊聊关于盈利背后的伦理问题，但首先得弄清楚一些术语。
I wanna talk a little bit about like the ethics behind monetization, but just to get some terminology down.
当人们提到色情内容并想到OnlyFans时，谁知道他们心里想的是什么呢？
When people say porn and think of OnlyFans, I mean, who knows what they think about?
但你愿意简单解释一下，如果有人访问你的网站，他们会看到什么吗？
But do you feel comfortable explaining a little bit about like what somebody would see if they were at in on your site?
因为我知道，上面的内容种类非常广泛。
Because I mean, I know that there's a wide variety of different things.
比如，你有没有一些绝对不越界的底线之类的东西？
Like, do you have like lines that you won't step across and that kind of thing?
要谈一谈OnlyFans整体情况，因为很多人还没上过这个网站。
Well, to kind of talk about OnlyFans as a whole for a lot of people haven't been on the site.
我认为，与Pornhub等其他网站相比，OnlyFans的整体目标更注重人际关系。
I think as a whole, the objective of OnlyFans compared to other sites like Pornhub is a lot more relational.
所以人们确实期待与创作者建立一种关系。
So people do kind of expect a relationship with the creators.
他们更希望有这种个人化的互动。
They want more of that personal contact.
还有私信功能。
There's messaging.
这更像是你在和这个人建立联系。
It's much more of a, like, you're connecting with this person.
不是完全的一对一，但更有这种感觉。
Not exactly one on one, but there's more of that feel.
这并不是一个浏览、滑动的网站。
It's not a browsing, scrolling website.
更像一个以私信为主的网站，没错。
It's a messaging Right.
主要是个私信平台。
Website more so.
而且，是的，人们的行为方式有着非常广泛的差异。
And, yes, there's a very wide range of what people do.
这个网站也显得更简洁一些。
It's also a little bit cleaner of a site.
对于可以发布和不可以发布的内容，有很多限制。
There's a lot of limitations of what can and can't be posted.
当我决定这么做时，我有两个主要目标。
For me, when I decided to do that, I had two main objectives.
我想创造一些前所未有的内容。
I wanted to create content that had never been created before.
对，没错。
And Right.
据我所知，我从不看任何类型的色情内容。
Judging by I don't watch any kind of porns.
我甚至不太清楚外面都有些什么。
I don't even really know what's out there.
我始终坚持了这一点。
And I I've I've held true to that.
我至今还没有看过任何其他色情内容。
I still have not watched any other pornography or content.
我只是根据自己的创造力创作了属于自己的内容。
I've just kinda created my own based on my own creativity.
听到这些真的很令人印象深刻，因为我觉得即使从创意角度来说，你也会想了解外面都在发生什么。
That's pretty impressive to hear because I would think that even just from the creative aspect, you'd wanna know what's going on.
所以你真的从来没有看过色情内容？
So you still have never watched porn.
我只看过一个女孩的一个视频。
Like I watched one video of one girl.
是的。
Right.
就那一次。
That's it.
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那只是我一个人的事，我很喜欢那个社交媒体上的女孩。
And was just a solo thing and I really liked the girl on social media.
所以我想，好吧，我会
So I was like, alright, I'll I'll
做这件事。
do this.
我的意思是，你确实得稍微学一点。
I mean, you had to kinda learn a little bit.
你
You
知道吗？
know?
一点点。
A a little bit.
但确实，我从来没有看过任何类型的视频之类的东西。
But, yeah, I haven't I haven't watched any kind of videos or anything.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我觉得这会破坏我自己的东西。
I feel like it kills my own thing.
我不想和别人竞争。
Like, I don't wanna be competing with other people.
我的作品主要关注两点。
My stuff focuses on two things.
首先，我真的很想做一些非常有创意的东西。
First of all, I really wanted to do something really creative.
我在其中投入了大量艺术努力，我的很多作品都包含极其复杂的照片拍摄和场景。
I put a lot of artistic effort into it, very, very complex photoshoots and scenes in a lot of my work.
另一点是，我想创造一些能体现我自身版本的性爱中爱与亲密关系的东西。
And then the other thing is I wanted to create something that, to me, displayed the love connection and intimacy in my own version of sexuality.
很多创作者的作品都充斥着羞辱感，你知道的。
So many creators, it's very you know, there's there's the humiliation.
我并不贬低这些癖好。
And I'm not shaming any of those kinks.
任何人都可以观看他们想看的内容，并且喜欢它。
Anyone can watch whatever they want, and they can like it.
但很多这类内容都非常……近乎掠夺性。
But so much of this was very, like, almost predatory.
我发现很多色情内容对观众都带有掠夺性，而我只是希望人们能感受到爱与尊重。
I see a lot of pornography is very predatory towards clients, and I just wanted people to feel loved and respected.
我认为我在视频前后使用的很多语言，其实都做过大量的肯定性视频。
And I think a lot of the language that I use before or after videos is I I've done, like, a lot of affirmation videos.
我做过很多内容，比如专注于呼吸练习，更注重放松，而不是那种‘快看我做了这个’之类的东西。
I've done a lot of content, you know, for me focusing on breath work, focusing on kind of more of a relaxation than a, oh, look at me doing this, you know, thing.
你知道的？
You know?
我不知道。
I don't know.
这只是不同的语气和感觉。
It's just a different tone and a different feel.
我觉得，至少在早期，我对如何创造这种氛围感到非常自豪。
And I think I've been pretty proud of the way, at least early on, how I created that.
我的意思是，这真的很富有创意。
I mean, that's pretty creative.
我们来谈谈所谓的道德变现吧，因为你从这件事中赚钱，而外面有人却说你是家庭破坏者之类的。
So let's talk about like this this idea of ethical monetization because you're making money from this and there's someone out there saying that you're a home wrecker and all of that stuff, you know.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
我觉得你很好地解释了内疚这个问题，如果一个人在做某件事时破坏了家庭，问题可能并不在于这件事本身。
I think you did a good job of explaining the whole guilt thing and if somebody is doing anything and it's wrecking their home, it's not necessarily the thing that they're doing.
而当我们说这个行业的道德变现时，到底是什么意思？
It's probably some other aspects, but what does it mean when we say ethical monetization in that industry?
也就是说，你如何向听众解释，为什么你做这些事还能赚钱？
Meaning, how do you justify to somebody that's listening, making money off of doing what you're doing?
是的
Yeah.
对我来说，我太在意道德了，以至于很多粉丝会生我的气，因为他们希望我参与那些非常另类的对话。
So for me, I care too much about the ethics to the point where I have a lot of fans that get mad at me because they want me to participate in this these very kinky conversations.
很多人，比如财务支配类内容创作者，会出来问：你能让我给你转账吗？
A lot of people, like, financial domination will come out and they'll be like, can you ask me to send you money?
而我会说：不行。
And I'm like, no.
但我可以像戴夫·拉姆齐那样，直到你需要开始存钱为止。
But I can be Dave Ramsey until you need to be saving it.
我不会为了钱而动摇自己的价值观。
Like, I don't I don't waver from my values for the sake of money.
所以我的很多粉丝都说：求你了，就向我要钱吧。
And so so many of my fans are like, please, just ask me for money.
我经常收到私信，有人不断请求我这么做，但他们因为我不答应而生气。
Like, I I have people DMing me that request all the time, and they get they get mad because I won't do it.
我就觉得，我根本不在这里。
I'm like, I am not here.
如果你愿意，你可以发点什么。
I'm like, you can send something if you would like.
你知道的？
You know?
我不是说不行，但我就是没有那种感觉。
Like, I'm I'm not gonna say no, but I just don't have that vibe.
我不喜欢那样。
I don't like that.
至于变现，对我来说，我看过一些其他账号，没看过他们的内容，但大概了解了他们是怎么做的。
As far as monetization, for me, as I've I have looked at some other accounts, didn't watch their stuff, but I've seen kind of how they do it.
OnlyFans上收入最高的人，我都忘记她叫什么了。
The number one grossing person on OnlyFans, I even forgot her name.
人人都知道她是谁。
Everyone knows who she is.
她的私信太具侵略性了。
Her DMs are so predatory.
每隔五分钟就来一次，全天不停。
It's every five minutes, all day long.
你为什么不喜欢我？
Like, why don't you like me?
你为什么不买新内容？
Why aren't you buying new content?
我五分钟前刚发了东西给你。
I sent you something five minutes ago.
她有一支不知道多少人的团队，再加上AI机器人，整天不停地做这些事。
She has, you know, a team of who knows how many people plus AI robots constantly doing this stuff all day long.
求你了，给我转点钱吧。
It's like, please send me money.
我想要你。
I I want you.
除非你现在打赏100美元，否则我不能发图片给你。
I can't send you pics unless you tip a $100 right now.
这简直是在情感上让人内疚，诸如此类。
It's like so emotionally, like, guilt tripping and stuff.
我早就决定好了，如果有人想买我的艺术作品，那很好。
And I just decided early on, I am not participating that if somebody wants to buy my art, cool.
如果有人觉得，嗯，很自然地想这么做，觉得我提供的东西能让他们内心平静。
If somebody, you know, feels so inclined to, you know, they feel like what I'm offering is helping them feel at peace with themselves.
它能带来放松。
It's bringing relaxation.
它能帮助他们在一天结束时冥想。
It's helping them to meditate at the end of the day.
很好。
Cool.
那他们可以这么做，但我不会用内疚和羞耻来逼迫别人，也不会拼命推销自己。
Then they can do that, but I'm not gonna guilt trip and shame people and, like, hustle and pimp myself.
对我来说，这一直非常重要。
That to me has always been really important.
我只是很好奇，从你的语气中我能听出来，而且我足够了解你，知道你在说真话。
I'm just curious to and I can hear in your voice and I've gotten to know you well enough that you're telling the truth, know.
在销售行业，有一种叫做‘不销售的销售’，就是当你不做某件事的时候。
In the industry of sales, there's something called the no sale sale, like when you don't do something.
在你的经验中，当别人要求你做某事而你拒绝时，你通常会看到什么结果？
In your experience, when people ask you to do something and you don't, what is the outcome that you typically see happen from that?
好的。
Okay.
所以你是在触及这一点。
So you are you're tapping into look.
再次，我会对你坦诚相待。
Again, I'm just gonna be honest with you.
我曾经有一面。
There was a side of me.
所以你知道，我做过OnlyFans，我就直接跟你们说下数字，就当好玩吧。
So, you know, I I did OnlyFans for I'll just tell you guys the numbers just for fun.
我做了三个月，那三个月赚了大约9万美元。
So I did it for three months, and I made about $90,000 in those three months.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后我就想，等等，其实只做了两个月。
And then I was like well, it was like two months.
然后我就想，哇哦。
And then I was like, woah.
等等，等等。
That was hold on.
这相当于我之前在‘Fight The Beast’干两年赚的钱。
That was like two years worth of money with what I was doing in Fight The Beast.
所以我就想，等等。
So then I was like, hold on.
我说过，如果我赚到这么多钱，我就只想回去当个妈妈。
I said that if I ever made this kind of money, I was just gonna go back to being a mom.
于是接下来的三个月，我请假了，和孩子们一起去旅行。
So then I took the next three months off, and I just traveled with my kids.
我就只是个妈妈。
And I was just mom.
我用这笔钱兑现了对孩子们的承诺，比如我们要去旅行。
Like, I used that to keep my promises to my kids of, like, we're gonna go on some trips.
我带他们去坐了游轮。
Like, I took them on a cruise.
我带他们去了迪士尼。
I took them to Disney.
我当时就想，现在我有这个自由了，我要好好爱你们，爱到死为止。
I was like, I'm gonna love you guys to death now because now I have the freedom to.
对。
Right.
所以我的账号就像过山车一样，一开始非常活跃，然后暂停了一段时间。
So there's this, like, roller coaster of my account where I was, like, super active, took a hiatus.
现在我稍微多做了一点。
Now I'm doing it a little bit more.
我正试着为它建立一种固定的节奏。
I'm trying to like have kind of a routine with it.
但我记得刚开始的时候，我完全沉浸在学习人类心理学的各种知识中。
But I remember there in the beginning, it was an absolute whirlwind of things that I was learning about human psychology.
每天我的肾上腺素都飙升，因为有一种效应让我意识到，只要做自己，我的账号增长速度远超我的想象。
Just I mean, every day my adrenaline was so over the top because there was kind of this effect where I realized that by being different, my account grew faster than I ever imagined.
而我的初衷其实是不要做这些事，也不要变得出名。
And the point was to not do any of those things and to not get big.
但不知怎么的，由于保持真实、友善，我不知不觉地创造出了这样一个庞然大物。
And then somehow there was this like, by being authentic, by being kind, I kind of created this monster unintentionally.
所以是的，我了解了‘不推销的销售’。
So yes, I learned about the no sale sale.
这其中有一整套心理学原理，我并没有刻意去利用，这一点我必须澄清。
And there was a whole psychology behind that that I didn't tap into intentionally, I have to clarify.
这很有趣也很有力量，但我还学到了另一件事。
It was interesting and powerful, but there was another thing that I learned.
我收到过无数条在OnlyFans上的私信，人们说我的内容彻底改变并治愈了他们的性观念。
I can't tell you how many DMs I've received on OnlyFans of people saying that I radically changed and healed their sexuality.
有人曾在我面前哭泣，感谢我所做的一切。
I've had people cry to me and be like, thank you so much for what you've done here.
我关注你已经好几年了，但直到看了你的某个视频，我才真正能够疗愈，并意识到我不需要色情内容。
I've been following you for years, but it wasn't until I watched x video that I was actually able to heal and realize that I don't need porn.
这实在是太有力量了。
And that was incredibly powerful.
这正是我的目标。
And that was my goal.
在我做这件事之前，在那个思考阶段，我的假设是：这样做对吗？
My hypothesis before doing this, in that phase where I'm thinking through, is this right?
这错了吗？
Is this wrong?
这是世界上有史以来最邪恶的事情吗？
Is this like the most villainous thing that's ever been done in the history of the world?
我早就知道这会带来后果。
I knew the repercussions of this.
我没料到它会如此火爆。
I didn't expect it to go so viral.
但在这一过程中，我有一个假设：通过站在他们的立场上，接纳他们的本来面目，无条件地爱他们，并帮助他们看到前进的道路，我可以更快地治愈他们。
But in that process, I had a hypothesis that I could heal people faster by meeting them where they're at, accepting them for who they are, loving them anyway, and helping them see the path forward.
我在这一点上并没有错。
And I wasn't wrong in that.
对于很大一部分人来说，这正是他们真正需要的。
For a huge segment of people, that is truly what they needed.
哇。
Wow.
所以我不知道该怎么问这个问题。
So I don't even know how to ask this question.
我把它分成两部分来问。
I'll ask it in two parts.
你拒绝做哪些事情？
What are the things that you refuse to do?
比如，你不能接受的底线是什么？
Like what's the line you want crossed?
你真的需要跨越那条线吗？
And do you even need to cross that line?
因为听起来有一种动态，人们试图控制你，而你并不允许，这就像一场小游戏。
Because it sounds like there's a dynamic where people are trying to like see if they can control you and you're not allowing it and there's like little bit of a game.
在某种程度上，我很想知道，从人类心理学的角度来看，这对你来说是否也有一点乐趣。
And to a certain degree, I would love to know if that's a little bit fun for you as well from a human psychological thing.
不是故意捉弄人，但看到这种推拉的过程， probably 很有意思。
Not not messing with people, but it's probably pretty interesting to see that push and pull.
那么在行业中，你绝不会跨越哪些底线？
So what lines will you not cross in the industry?
因为我会假设人们会要求你做各种奇怪的事情。
Because I would assume people ask you to do all sorts of weird things.
你如何看待这种状况对你的心理健康产生的影响？
And how do you see that manifesting in in in your own mental health with that whole aspect?
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣。
It's funny.
我收到的仇恨有多少，我不知道是在《Fight The Beast》中收到的仇恨多，还是在OnlyFans上收到的更多，因为不管你做什么，人们都会抱怨。
The amount of the amount of hate I don't know if the hate that I was getting in Fight The Beast or the hate that I've gotten from OnlyFans is greater because people are gonna complain no matter what you do.
很多人觉得我是地球上最让人抓狂的创作者，因为我确实有那种……
And I do have a lot of people that consider me to just be the most frustrating creator on the face of the planet because I do have like
没错。
Right.
我的界限和底线吧。
My lane and and my boundaries maybe.
这个过程的一部分，我已经做了七个月了。
Part of this process, so I've been doing it for seven months.
我没有分享太多个人细节，但我的个人生活中确实经历过一些关系动态，其中一段关系我在那三个月里结束了。
I've had, without sharing too many personal details, my own kind of relationship dynamics in my personal life, one of which I quit during that three months.
我为了一个伴侣而退出了。
I quit for a partner.
我当时想，好吧。
And I was like, okay.
你知道吗？
You know what?
如果我们真的要在一起，那我就不会做OnlyFans了，所以我有三个月没登录。
If we're gonna if we're gonna be talking, I'm not doing any OnlyFans, so I didn't log on for three months.
然后开始探索一段新的关系。
And then kind of exploring a new relationship.
我正在努力弄清楚这到底是怎么运作的。
I'm trying to figure out how that works.
对我来说，我只是想忠于自己和自己的感受。
For me, I just want to be true to myself and how I feel.
我认为，许多离开这个行业女性之后出现严重心理健康问题的原因，是我们总在谈论这对女性有多糟糕。
I think the reason why so many women in the industry who leave the industry have huge mental health issues afterwards, we talk about how bad it is for women.
我认为这是因为她们违背了自己的界限和良知。
I think that's because they break their own boundaries, their own conscience.
我决心绝不这样做。
And I'm very determined to not do that.
所以对我来说，无论在情感上、内心上还是心理上，我都是百分之百专一的人。
So for me, I'm emotionally, internally, psychologically, 100% monogamous as a person.
而且
And
因此，当我创作艺术、当我看到自己在那上面发布的内容时，我更多地把它看作是艺术。
so for me, when I create art, when I when I see kind of the stuff that I do on there, I see it more as art.
我觉得这非常不个人化。
It's very unpersonal, I would say.
比如，我并没有和任何人交换能量。
Like, I'm not exchanging energy with anybody.
我可能是在展示我的能量，但并没有交换能量。
I might be displaying my energy, but I'm not exchanging energy.
所以我不会和任何个人进行现场互动。
So I won't do anything live with an individual.
有时候我会为定制视频之类的东西表演。
I won't sometimes I'll do acting for, like, custom videos or things.
但大部分情况下，如果我觉得某件事不舒服，我就直接拒绝。
But for the most part, if it's not if it's not something that I feel good about, I just say no.
你知道的？
You know?
我总是鼓励人们给我发请求。
And I I always encourage people, send me a request.
如果我想做，或者有心情做，或者觉得能真实地演绎，你知道，也许这不属于我的偏好。
And if I wanna do it or if I'm in the mood to do it or if I think I can act authentically, you know, maybe it's not my kink.
但如果我觉得能真实地演绎，也许我会考虑一下。
But if I think I can do it authentically, maybe I'll consider it.
但我在这方面有着非常明确的界限。
But I just have a really firm boundary there.
我会稍微盘点一下，问问自己的内心。
And I just kind of like take inventory and check my heart.
我会想：我会因为做了这件事而感到开心吗？
I'm like, will I be happy that I did this?
我会为此感到内疚吗？
Will I feel guilty about it?
不是那种羞愧的内疚，而是会想：我不知道，这真的是我想做的吗？
Not guilty, like in a shame way, but just like, will I feel I don't know, is it my thing?
如果这不是我的事，我就不想做。
If it's not my thing, I don't want to do it.
我不想把精力浪费在假装上。
I don't want to lose energy to being fake.
所以我只是见机行事，也许随着时间推移会有所改变。
So I just kind of play it by ear and it might evolve over time.
所以我不是说永远都不会。
So I'm not saying like, will never
x
x
也许我会。
Maybe y I will.
我也说过我永远不会拍色情片。
I also said I would never make porn.
你看，现在不就做到了。
So here we are.
但也许随着时间推移，这种情况可能会改变。
But so maybe over time that could change.
但现在，我只是一天一天地过，想着：嗯，这感觉好吗？
But right now, I just take it day by day and I'm like, okay, does this feel good?
这对我来说是真实的能量吗？
Is this like authentic energy to me?
别人最多给你开过多少钱？
What's the most amount of money somebody's ever offered you?
因为我觉得应该有一些非常富有的人想用钱来控制别人。
Because I would assume there's some very wealthy people out there that wanna control somebody with money.
有谁曾经给你开过最高的价码，但你拒绝了？
What's the most amount of money that somebody ever offered to you that you said no to?
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
我觉得我经常收到一些报价，只是我不太相信他们。
I I feel like I regularly get maybe I didn't believe them.
也许我根本没当真，直接忽略了他们。
Maybe I blew them off because I didn't believe them.
我觉得我曾经多次收到过几千美元的请求，但我只是觉得，我可能根本就没理他们。
I think I have received requests for several thousand dollars at a time, and I was just like, like, I probably just blew them off.
我不确定他们是不是认真的。
I don't know if they were serious.
哦。
Oh.
因为对我来说，有一部分想法是：你不该花这么多钱。
Because for me, there is kind of, again, part of me is like, you should not be spending that money.
我花了五年时间，但我不确定。
I spent five years of the life, but I don't know.
你应该这么做。
You should be doing that.
你会不会教他们如何投资钱，而不是花在你身上？
Do you start teaching them, like, how to invest their money instead of spend it with you?
我教过。
I have.
这很有趣。
That's funny.
有一点。
A little bit.
有一点。
A little bit.
如果人们对此不介意，我会说，你想让我怎样？我跟别人开玩笑过。
If people are okay with that, I will be like, you want me to I I've joked with people.
他们说：嘿，你能扮演一下粉丝文化吗？
I was like they're like, hey, can you role play fandom?
我就说：我可以扮演戴夫·拉姆齐。
And I'm like, I can role play Dave Ramsey.
如果这让你兴奋，我可以告诉你，如果戴夫·拉姆齐让你兴奋，我也可以扮演女支配者。
Like, if that's if that turns you on, I can tell you I can be a dominatrix if Dave Ramsey turns you on.
你提到过有人恨你，说你这里那里都收到仇恨邮件。
You said something about hate, you're getting hate mail and people are hating on you over here and over there.
那么，你如何回应那些曾经认识你、追随过你早期的人呢？
So how do you respond to people that knew you and followed you back when?
因为你曾发起一个非常大的运动，现在却有人说你变成了你曾经反对的那种人，比如‘你怎么敢’之类的话。
Because you started a very big movement and say something like, you became the thing that you fought and say how dare you or something like that.
你该怎么回应这些呢？
How do you respond to that?
有人愿意每小时付我200美元，只为冲我大喊大叫，这简直太搞笑了。
I have had people pay me $200 an hour to yell at me, which is hilarious.
哇。
Wow.
有些人会预约200美元的咨询通话，整个过程都在向我倾诉，而且不止一次。
People have booked a $200 consultation call with me and just vented the whole time, multiple times.
有些人还会再打电话回来，重复做第二次。
Some of them call back to do it a second time.
所以我觉得很抱歉，因为我竟然让他们受到这么大的刺激。
So I feel bad that I triggered them so badly.
有趣的是，刚开始的时候，我还有活跃的辅导客户，所以我得向每个人解释我正在做什么。
What was so interesting is in the beginning, cause I still had active coaching clients and, you know, I had to explain to everyone here's what I'm doing.
其中一些人深受伤害，甚至到了恐慌发作的程度，我感到非常内疚。
Some of those people were deeply hurt, like to the point panic attacks and I felt really bad.
但有趣的是，随着我们不断深入交流，他们逐渐与自己、与性取向、也与我达成了和解。
But what was interesting is the more we talked it through, the more at peace they became from with themselves and sexuality and with me.
我有好几个人对我说：对不起。
And I had several people go, I'm sorry.
我之前在评判你。
I was judging you.
对不起，我有时候竟然对你大喊大叫。
I'm sorry for literally sometimes yelling at me.
他们说：对不起，我之前对你的态度那样恶劣。
They're like, I'm sorry for the way I talked to you.
我现在明白了。
I see now.
我现在明白你为什么这么做啦。
Like, I understand now why you did what you did.
我现在明白这是怎么运作的了。
I understand now how it's working.
也许我并不完全同意。
Maybe I don't agree.
也许我自己不会这么做，但我现在真的明白了。
Maybe I wouldn't do it with myself, but, like, I understand now.
我觉得对很多人来说，有些人一开始爆发了，但后来看到了我发的内容，就发现：哦，这和我想象的不一样。
And I think for a lot of people, some of them were, like, really blew up, and then they saw what kind of content I was posting, and they were like, oh, this isn't what I expected.
这还是你啊。
This is still you.
你知道，人们原本担心我会出卖灵魂，变成他们最讨厌的那种人，但后来他们看到了一些新的、不同的、更有灵魂的东西，于是就说：哦，也许这并不是我想象的那样。我因此吸引了很多人的关注。
You know, this isn't you didn't like I think people were worried that I would, like, sell my soul and become the thing that they hate most, but then they saw something new, something different, something with more soul in it, and they were like, oh, maybe this isn't I had a lot of people come my way.
至于家庭评论方面，我原本计划在OnlyFans之后再创办一家公司，专门帮助女性。
As far as the home record comments, I had a whole plan to create another company after OnlyFans to work specifically with women.
女性需要了解关于丈夫性欲的许多事情。
There are so many things that women need to understand about their husband's sexuality.
我并不清楚自己在色情成瘾康复客户中的成功率具体是多少，但在婚姻维护上，我的成功率是100%。
I had like I had I don't know what exactly my success rate was with porn recovery clients, but I had a 100% success rate with marriages.
真正让我用心的是维系婚姻。
And marriages was really where my heart was at keeping marriages together.
但我经常看到女性对丈夫施加的性虐待，无论是通过拒绝亲密、羞辱，还是其他方式——而我也曾有过这样的行为。
But so often I saw so much sexual abuse towards the husband from the woman, whether it was from withholding or shaming or, and I'm guilty of that.
我不会否认，在我作为基督徒妻子的那段时期，我也做过这样的事。
Like, I'm not going to say that I didn't do that in my Christian wife era.
女性需要了解关于性、关于色情的很多事，她们不该因此感到恐惧，不该因此产生不安全感，而应该去真正理解。
There's so much that I think women need to know about sexuality, about pornography, that they need to not fear it, that they need to not be insecure because of it, that they need to understand.
我曾接待过许多丈夫，在辅导通话中他们对我说：‘我妻子是世界上最美的女人。’
I had so many husbands who would come to me on a coaching call and they would say things like, my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world.
我爱她。
I love her.
我在乎她。
I care about her.
他们对我很真诚，非常爱他们的妻子。
And they'd be authentic with me and they would love their wives so much.
但由于各种挑战，也许她不愿意在性方面与他建立联系。
But because of different challenges, maybe she wasn't willing to connect sexually.
她不愿意和他进行这些对话。
She wasn't willing to have these conversations with him.
她选择了拒绝。
She was withholding.
他说，我这样做只是为了身体上释放，因为如果不释放，我的睾丸会疼。
He's like, I'm doing this to physically get off because I have pain in my balls if I don't release.
你知道吗？
You know?
但他强调，这并不是因为我不爱我的妻子。
But he's like, it's not because I don't love my wife.
所以有些女人根本不理解男性的性需求。
So there's women just don't understand men's sexuality.
而且再说一遍，我觉得，你知道的，是的。
And again, I think, you know yeah.
我觉得这只是在投射。
I think that's just projecting.
这就像找替罪羊，把责任推给别人，却不解决婚姻问题，那里其实有很多复杂的情况。
It's like scapegoat, point blame on somebody else, not fix your marriage or there's a lot going on there.
那里确实有很多复杂的情况。
There's a there's a lot going on there.
我对OnlyFans有点天真，但在我听来，人们给它贴上了标签，认为你们就像到处与动物厮混一样。
I'm a bit naive when it comes to OnlyFans, but it sounds to me like there's this label that people have on it that assumes that you guys are like running around with animals or something like that.
但我觉得你正在揭示真相，我的意思是，我听过你用‘艺术’这个词来形容它，还提到加入肯定性的话语等等。
But I think that you're shedding light that, I mean, I've heard you use the word like, you've referred to it as art and adding affirmations to it and stuff.
我觉得很多听的人可能还是会觉得无法接受，仍然会有意见。
I think a lot of people are gonna listen to this and still maybe not be okay with it and still maybe have a problem.
但我觉得他们会因此更加开明，意识到这或许并不总是他们以为的那样。
But I think that they're gonna be a little bit more enlightened that it's maybe not always what they think.
对于那些仍然把你当成‘Fight The Beast’的人，因为确实会有一些人根本不知道。
For the person that still sees you as just the Fight The Beast, because there there's gonna be some people that didn't even know.
这会让他们惊呼：天啊，这是什么？
This is gonna be like, oh my God, what?
这只是因为你偶然发现了它，因为我总是会回看我的嘉宾，于是我去了你的‘Fight The Beast’主页，然后我想：等等，这是什么？
It's just, you're either happening upon it, because I always check back on my guests and I went to your Fight The Beast profile and then I was like, wait a second, what is that?
我当时还以为你的账号被黑了之类的。
And I thought maybe your account got hijacked or something like that.
正是由此，我们才展开了这段对话。
And that's how this conversation started.
但对于那些仍然把你视为那个以‘Fight The Beast’为使命的人，今天的你究竟是谁？
But for the person that still sees you as that Fight The Beast mission based person, who are you today?
你会如何解释今天的你是什么样的？
How would you explain who you are today?
是的
Yeah.
就像你所说的，我们每个人都在与某些东西抗争。
Like you said, we're all we're all fighting something.
如果我要说我现在正在对抗的是什么，我意识到那个怪兽并不是色情内容。
And I think if I were to say what I'm fighting now, I realized that the beast was not porn.
我以为怪兽是色情内容。
I thought the beast was porn.
我以为它是魔鬼、色情、色情制作者、色情明星，还有那些可怕的黑暗事物。
I thought it was the devil and porn and porn creators and porn stars and and, you know, all these horrible dark things.
然后我意识到，在大多数情况下，怪兽其实是我们的内疚和羞耻，
And then I realized that I think the beast is in most cases, our own guilt and shame,
我们的
our
自己无法理性地做对自己有益的事。
own lack of being able to rationally do what's right for us.
我们脑海中那些声音，我不知道，它们对我们产生生理影响，导致抑郁、焦虑和不快乐。
Those voices in our heads that, I don't know, that have that physiological effect on us that causes depression and anxiety and unhappiness.
所以现在我认为，我仍在以一种新的方式与这个怪兽抗争，只是试图帮助人们意识到：你有选择的权利。
And so now I think I'm still fighting that beast in a new way, just trying to help people realize that you get to choose.
你可以选择自己的性取向。
You get to choose your own sexuality.
如果你觉得OnlyFans不适合你，那很好。
If you if OnlyFans doesn't vibe with you, great.
它也不适合我。
It doesn't vibe for me either.
猜怎么着？
Guess what?
我不会去和在OnlyFans上工作的人约会。
I'm not gonna date somebody that's on OnlyFans.
这种事情根本不会发生。
Like, not happening.
我在某种程度上反对它。
I'm opposed to it in a way.
我知道很多人会说，这很虚伪。
And I know a lot of people say, well, that that's hypocrisy.
不。
No.
不是的。
It's not.
对我来说，不是。
To me, it's not.
这是在说，这是一个自由选择的世界。
It's saying this is a free choice world.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你可以选择你想要的、你想成为的人、你如何与他人互动，是否保持健康，以及你对健康的定义是什么。
Get to choose what you want, who you want to be, how you want to interact, if you want to be healthy and what your version of healthy means.
你知道吧？
You know?
比如吃肉，你可以选择生酮饮食，获得巨大的健康益处。
You get to like, with meat, you can be on the carnivore diet and have huge health benefits.
有些患有自身免疫疾病的人，只有靠生酮饮食才能生存。
There are people with autoimmune diseases that can only survive on carnivore diet.
而另一些有其他健康问题的人，却只能靠素食才能生存。
Then there are people with other issues that can only survive as a vegetarian.
谁有资格说谁健康、谁不健康，谁对、谁错，谁道德正确、谁不道德呢？
Who's to say one of them's healthy and one of them's not, or one of them's right, one of them's wrong, one of them's morally correct, the other's not?
所以对我来说，是放下这些评判，承认这里确实存在需求。
And so for me, it's releasing all of that and saying there is a need here.
那些在OnlyFans上工作的人，很多人这么做是有原因的，因为他们得不到爱，缺乏人际连接。
There is absolutely the people who are on OnlyFans, many of them are on there for a reason because they either receive no love, no human connection.
所以确实有一些人是这样的。
So some of these people do.
好的。
Okay.
我不是说所有人都这样，但确实有一大群人在那里，他们从未有过恋爱关系，觉得自己不可爱，从未约过会。
I'm not saying that's everybody, but there is a huge section of people on there who have never had a relationship, who feel like they are unlovable, that they have never been on a date.
我见过一些四十多岁还是处男的男人，他们感到极度孤独，觉得自己不被看见。
I've talked to men who are virgins in their 40s and they've just felt so isolated, felt so unseen.
我认为，对他们来说，我需要能够与这些人建立联系，告诉他们：你被看见了，你被爱着，你很有价值，你是个很棒的人，你知道吗？只是想鼓励他们。
And I think that there's this need on there to for me to be able to connect with those people to say, you're seen, you're loved, you're valuable, you're a cool person now, you know, and just to build people up.
而对于那些不需要这些的人，很好。
Then for everyone who doesn't want it, great.
那就过你的生活，远离它。
Live your life without it.
但别到处发脾气。
But don't go around being angry.
这就是我放下的东西。
And that's what I released.
我希望所有对我的做法感到愤怒的听众也能放下愤怒。
And that's what I hope anyone listening to this who's angry about what I'm doing can also release is release your anger.
理解你的观点并不是唯一的观点，你的需求也不是唯一的需求。
Understand that your perspective is not the only perspective, that your needs are not the only needs.
如果这对你不合适，就不要参与。
If it's not good for you, don't participate.
如果这对你有好处，而且你感受到了这些益处，那很好。
If it is good for you and you feel those benefits, great.
很好。
Cool.
为你高兴。
Good for you.
但每个人都有选择的权利。
But everyone gets to choose.
是的。
Yeah.
那些四处走动、满腹愤怒并觉得自己的愤怒有道理的人，这样也没关系。
And the people that are walking around angry and feel justified in being angry, that's okay too.
你知道的，一切都很好。
You know, like everything's okay.
2026年的海瑟会对几年前上我节目的那个海瑟说些什么呢？
What would Heather of 2026 say to Heather that was on my show, you know, years ago?
你会对她说什么？
What what would you say to her?
我经常思考这个问题。
I think about that a lot.
我也会想，年轻时的我，或者小时候的我会说什么呢？
I also think about what would like the teenage version of me or the child version they say like, what?
如果我能解释我的立场，我想我会愿意接受的。
And I think if I got to explain my position, I think I would have been open to it.
我认为，通过超验主义、人际关系和统计数据所学到的东西，我或许能用逻辑说服自己，或者我确实需要那些经历。
I think that the things that I learned through transcendentalism, through relationships, through statistics, I could have probably maybe talked logic into myself or maybe I needed those experiences.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我确实在某个时候知道，因为从18岁起，就有人告诉我，我应该当脱衣舞娘，应该当舞者，应该做OnlyFans模特。
I know for sure at one point, because I had actually, since I was 18 years old, people were telling me that I should be a stripper, that I should be a dancer, that I should be an OnlyFans model.
我经常收到这些评论，尤其是在《Fight The Beast》期间。
I got those comments all the time, especially with Fight The Beast.
过去五年里，我收到最多的评论就是：你该去拍色情片才对。
Was five years of my number one comment was, you should be making porn instead.
我一直以来都抵制了这一切。
I had resisted all of that for so long.
我的身边人，甚至家人和约会对象，也总是说：你应该去做这个。
I mean, even people close to me, family members, like people I dated were always like, you should do this.
那对我来说是个奇怪的世界。
And it was a weird world for me.
我总是拒绝，因为我心想：不，我不想伤害任何人。
And I always rejected because I was like, no, I don't want to hurt anyone.
我不希望孩子们无意中看到这些。
I don't want children to accidentally see this.
然后我到了一个地步，意识到首先，这些东西已经流传出去了。
And then I got to the point where I realized, well, first of all, it's already out there.
其次，OnlyFans需要身份证验证，这正是我选择这个平台的原因，因为注册账户必须进行身份认证。
Second of all, OnlyFans does require an ID, which is again why I chose to go with that website because they have to ID verify you to have an account.
所以我感觉在那里稍微安全一点。
So I felt a little bit safer there.
但更重要的是，每个人都会做出自己的选择。
But also it's just this idea of everyone's going to choose what they're going to choose.
所以我不知道自己当时会怎么想。
So I don't know how would I have felt about that.
我曾经强烈地拒绝它。
I'd reject it so much.
我感到非常受触动，总觉得我绝不能成为问题的一部分。
I felt very triggered, very much like I would never want to be a part of the problem.
我从来不想伤害一段关系。
I would never want to hurt a relationship.
我从来不想伤害孩子。
Would never want to hurt a kid.
但没错，自从我意识到事情并不是那样运作的以来。
But yeah, just since realizing that's not how that works.
这是一种对人类行为的错误看法。
It's an incorrect view of how people function.
一种非常控制欲强的观点。
A very controlling view.
这还有另一点我想说。
That's another thing I would say.
当时有一种对抗模式，但同时也有一种控制模式。
There was this fight mode, but then there was also this control mode.
我感到自己在宗教上负有责任去控制他人，把别人当孩子对待。
I felt religiously obligated to control other people and treat other people like children.
在过去的五年里，通过‘对抗野兽’这个项目，我一直把男人当成如果不拿走糖果他们就不会听话的孩子。
For five years through Fight The Beast, I was treating men like we need to take away the candy or they won't behave.
对。
Right.
我认为这是一种对男性非常不成熟的看法，后来我意识到：等等，男人有权做他们想做的事。
And I think that was a very immature view of men and I realized, wait, men get to do what they want.
他们是理性的人。
They are rational beings.
他们可以决定自己是否是理性的人。
They can make their whether or not we're rational beings.
那是另一个话题了。
That's a whole other debate.
但总的来说，我们可以说，好吧。
But for the most part, we can say, okay.
如果你想要这个，那就自己选择吧。
Well, if you want this, you choose it.
我不会闲坐着当饼干罐的看守。
I'm not gonna sit around being the guard of the cookie jar.
这太荒谬了。
Like, that's insane.
我不知道。
And I don't know.
这非常有趣，因为显然这是一个每个人都在谈论、充满好奇的话题——OnlyFans，但你可以把这种对话延伸到任何行业，无论国内外，只要认识到人类有权选择如何看待事物、思考什么。
It's so fascinating because this is obviously a topic that everybody talks about and curious about OnlyFans, but you could take this conversation in any industry, foreign or not, just recognize that human beings get to choose the way that they look at things and what they think about things.
我的很多工作就是指出这一点：我教授一种叫做‘界面响应系统’的东西，它始于我提醒人们：你意识到自己的观点和意见是从哪里来的吗？
And a lot of my work is just pointing out, I teach this thing called the interface response system, which begins with me pointing out and saying, well, are you aware of where you got your perspective from and your opinions from?
还是你以为这些想法是你自己独立产生的？
Or do you think that you came up with that on your own?
因为我知道，如果现在的我和几年前的我对话，他会说：‘你疯了吧，老兄，你根本不知道自己在说什么。’
Because I know that if I had a conversation with who I am now with me years ago, he would be like, you're out of your mind, dude, you know, you know what you're talking about.
因为他当时并不了解某些事情，所以我们活到老，学到老。
Because he didn't know some things, you know, so we live and we learn.
我有个女儿，我知道你也有。
I have a daughter and I know you do too.
对我来说，连个男生跟我女儿说话我都受不了，你知道的，因为我正处于那种过度保护的爸爸阶段，但我正在慢慢改变。
And for me, like, I don't even want like a guy like talking to my daughter, you know, because I'm in like that paranoid dad phase, but I'm I'm getting there.
我正在稍微放松一点。
I'm loosening up a little bit.
但想到她做这样的事，我确实很害怕，但那是因为她是我的女儿。
But the idea of her doing something like this scares me in one sense, but that's because it's my daughter.
2026年及以后，女性的经济自主权会是什么样子？
What does the financial autonomy of women look like in 2026 and going on?
因为对你这样的人而言——我想对节目中的每个人说，我们尝试了无数次想邀请希瑟来做这期播客，但每次都不得不取消。
Because to a certain degree, somebody like you who's And what I'll say to everybody in the show is I can't tell you how many times we tried to do this podcast episode with Heather and we had to cancel.
原因是因为她总是陪着孩子，对吧？
And the reason why is because she's like always with her kids, right?
所以我只想让大家知道，她是个非常棒的母亲，好到根本找不到她人。
So I just want everybody to know that she's a fantastic mom to the point where she's impossible to tag down.
所以让所有人都知道这一点。
So let everybody know that.
你对这一切，整个行业，持什么立场？你会对一个15、16岁的女孩说些什么，如果她问：‘我以后该做这个吗？’
What is your stance on all of this, the industry and what would you say to a 15, 16 year old girl saying like, hey, should I do that one day?
是的，让我们来分析几个方面，因为我想要讨论一下这里涉及的多个因素。
Yeah, so let's track a couple components here because I wanna comment on a bunch of factors here.
首先，关于我对我自己孩子的普遍建议，我们稍后再谈。
One is what I would say to any of my kids in general, so we'll come back to that.
至于女性的经济状况，这一直非常有趣，因为我从17岁起就一直自雇。
As far as the financial piece for women, it's been really fascinating because I've been self employed since I was 17 years old.
我从未为任何人工作过。
I've never worked for anybody.
所以我一直保持着极度的独立性。
So I've always been radically independent.
我一直都是自雇的。
I've always been self employed.
我已经单身七年多了。
I've been single for more than seven years.
我觉得总共十年了，我一直是个单亲妈妈。
I think ten years total, I've been a single mom.
所以，我不需要靠这个才能成为那样的人。
So I like I didn't need this in order to be that way.
我也认为，随着人工智能的发展，我不确定每个人的自主性会是什么样子。
I also think with AI moving forward, I don't know what anybody's autonomy is going to look like.
很难说，因为现在有这么多AI生成的色情内容，几乎让人觉得，我们还需要真人吗？
It's hard to say because so much AI porn is out there now that it's almost like, do we need humans for this?
为什么人们还在看我的内容？
Why are people still even looking at my content?
这是一个非常有趣的领域。
There's, it's a very interesting space.
它确实对我产生了深远的影响。
It has definitely had a profound impact on me.
人们说我情绪不稳定，诸如此类的话。
People called me unstable, whatever.
我不在乎。
I don't care.
刚开始做这件事的前三个月，我每天都好几次高兴得哭出来，因为这份工作给了我过去七年作为单亲妈妈从未有过的安全感。
The first three months where I was doing it, I was like happy crying, like multiple times a day because it gave me so much safety that I didn't have for the last seven years as a single mom.
它还给了我经济上的安心感，让我觉得不管发生什么，一切都会好起来。
And it gave me that financial peace of mind, like everything is going to be Okay no matter what happens.
这太重要了。
And it was huge.
我的孩子们感受到了变化。
My kids felt the difference.
当他们意识到妈妈不必再为一些小事发愁时，他们的心理健康改善了很多——我有三个孩子。
Their mental health got so much better when they were like, mom can just mom doesn't have to like even little things like just I have three kids.
养三个孩子是很花钱的。
It's expensive having three kids.
无论我通过‘Fight The Beast’赚了多少钱，都不重要。
It didn't matter how much money I was making with Fight The Beast.
孩子很花钱，而且我还有一处庄园和一些动物。
Like, kids are expensive and I have a homestead and animals.
我从来不算穷，但以前总是得说：‘好了，孩子们，我们得注意了，虽然回家只有三十分钟车程，但现在不能吃快餐了，因为钱紧张，我得守着预算。’
I was never broke, but also just going from, okay, guys, we have to, you know, it's a thirty minute drive home, but we can't get fast food right now because, you know, money is you know, I have a budget to okay.
现在我们可以出去吃饭，而且我一点也不觉得有压力。
We can eat out, and I'm not stressed about it.
我也不再因为工作而冲你们大喊叫你们安静，或者因为压力大就把你们推开。
And I'm not all I'm also not gonna yell at you to be quiet because I'm working, or I'm not gonna push you guys away because I'm stressed.
这彻底改变了我作为单亲妈妈的一切。
That just radically changed everything for me as a single mom.
不过我也得说，这真让人难过，因为我并不希望我的孩子将来成为单亲父母。
Now I will say that sucks because I don't want my kids to be single parents.
我不希望他们 ever 处于那种充满压力和焦虑情绪的境地。
I don't want them to ever be in that position where they have those stressed out emotions.
对我来说，这部分在于意识到，也许我并没有选择成为单亲妈妈，但什么是接下来最好的选择？
Part of that for me was saying, maybe I didn't choose to be a single mom, but what's the next best thing?
我认为我们很多时候都需要这样思考：这里接下来最好的选择是什么？
I think that's the thinking that we have to have a lot of times is what's the next best option here?
毕竟，一个压力重重的单亲妈妈，远比我只是想——是的，要糟糕得多。
Well, being a stressed out single mom is a lot worse than I just wanted to, yeah.
在某种程度上，我要把孩子放在首位。
To in some ways prioritize my kids there.
但让我们回到那个问题：我会对他们说什么？
But let's go back to that question of what would I tell them?
因为我觉得已经过去很久了，但当时他们似乎多少知道一些，我不知道他们具体知道什么，但我觉得他们都隐约察觉到了，因为我经常拍照片，我记得我12岁的儿子曾经对我说：妈妈，你这样的人，真的吗？
Because I think it's been a while, but I think at the time they kind of knew, I don't know what they knew, but I think they all kind of knew because I was doing a lot of photo shoots and they were like, I remember my 12 year old son said to me at one point, he said, you of all people, mom, really?
我说：听着，伙计，你们才是我的优先事项，我想确保我们有一个幸福的家庭生活，因为这比僵化的价值观重要得多。
And I said, look, dude, you guys are my priority and I wanna make sure that we have a happy home life because that matters a lot more than rigid values.
他们就说：好吧。
And they were like, okay.
我们就只是说，好吧，不错。
Like, we just were like, alright, cool.
再说一遍，我不确定他们到底知道多少，但我能感觉到我女儿说过一些话。
Again, I don't know how far they knew of things, but I could sense that my daughter said some things.
我当时想，你真的很有直觉。
I was like, you have a really good intuition.
好的。
Okay.
至于这一点，我不希望我的孩子进入这个行业。
As far as that, you know, I wouldn't want my kids to be in that industry.
有一位创作者我很喜欢。
There's one creator that I really love.
她经常在网上公开对女孩们说话，基本上和其他创作者一样，她说你必须真正热爱这个行业，就像对待任何工作一样。
She always talks to girls publicly online and she basically says as many other creators do, you have to really love this industry like any job.
如果你不爱它，就不要做。
Don't do it if you don't love it.
我热爱人类性学，这正是我教授《对抗野兽》的原因。
I love human sexuality, which is why I was teaching Fight The Beast.
我喜欢和人们谈论他们的性观念。
I love talking to people about their sexuality.
你知道，你妻子她做她所热爱的事。
You know, your wife, she does what she does.
那是她热爱的话题。
She it's a topic she loves.
我肯定。
I'm sure.
没错。
Right.
这也是我热爱的话题。
This is a topic I love.
我认为这并不适合每个人。
I don't think that's right for everybody.
你知道，如果孩子喜欢谈论这个，喜欢拍照，喜欢创作内容，那当然没问题。
Know, like if it's not if if your child loves talking about it, loves taking photos, loves creating content, sure.
你知道，只要这真的是他们热爱的事情，我认为不会对他们造成伤害。
You know, it's I don't think it's gonna hurt them as long as that's truly what they love.
我认识很多人，有个朋友曾经突然拉黑我，后来又回来道歉。
A lot of people I had a friend blow up and, like, block me and then came back and apologized for it.
但他跟我说，我担心你会出什么事。
But he was like, I was scared what was gonna happen to you.
我担心你会遭遇和我朋友一样的事，因为他有过这样的经历。
I was scared what was gonna happen to me and my friends was gonna happen to you because he had experience with that.
我当时就说，不，我真的是发自内心喜欢这件事。
And I was like, no, I actually love this.
我不是因为走投无路才做这个的。
I'm not doing it because I'm desperate.
我不是因为 desperation 才出卖自己的。
I'm not selling myself because I'm desperate.
我做这件事是因为我喜欢，因为它是我热衷的事情。
I'm doing this because I enjoy it because it's something I'm passionate about.
至于女孩，我仍然想继续教导我的儿子们，但不是从羞耻的角度出发。
As far as girls, I still want to continue to teach my boys but not from a shame perspective.
我认为最健康的生活方式可能是避开这些。
I still think the healthiest way of being is probably to avoid this.
但我们也不喜欢看电影。
But we also don't like movies.
我们远离科技。
We stay off technology.
我想要一种无科技的生活，并希望也能让他们拥有无科技的生活。
I want a technology free life and I want to empower them to also have a technology free life.
我不再使用社交媒体了。
I don't have social media anymore.
我删除了我的TikTok和Instagram账号，因为我再也不需要它们了。
I deleted my TikToks, my Instagrams because I don't need them anymore.
我不想成为那个世界的一部分。
I don't want to be a part of that world.
有女儿的女性往往非常不自信。
Daughters with girls are very insecure.
而且，我再次提到，我考虑创办一个女性组织，帮助女性认识到：不要自卑，要学会如何赋能女性，让她们不在互联网上与他人竞争，不要觉得必须符合某种标准。我听过很多男人说，他们的妻子是这个世界上最美妙、最棒的人。
And again, I said I wanted to start a women's organization potentially to just help women realize, don't be insecure and how to empower women to not compete with girls on the internet, to not feel like they need to realize that I've heard so many men say that their wives were just the most beautiful, wonderful person on the planet.
她们长什么样根本无所谓。
And it didn't matter what they look like.
我听过男人说，他们爱妻子的妊娠纹；我自己也有各种奇怪的缺陷，而别人根本不在意，这在我看来真的很有趣。
I've heard men be like, I love my wife's stretch marks and I've got my own weird defects and for people to not care is just to me really funny.
这与许多女性的信念恰恰相反。
It's contrary to what a lot of women believe.
你知道，我们都有这些。
You know, we have these.
我真的很想教导和赋能我的孩子，让他们明白：做你热爱的事，做对你而言正确的事。
I do really want to teach and empower my kids that idea of do what you love, do what's right for you.
不要做任何让你感觉糟糕的事，但我不会把这些想法灌输给他们。
Don't do anything that makes you feel bad, but I'm not gonna put those thoughts in their heads.
他们必须自己去探索并找到答案。
They have to explore that and figure out for themselves.
是的，今天我要问你一个最疯狂的问题。
Yeah, here's the craziest question I'm gonna ask you today.
别人该怎么找到你？
How would somebody find you?
所以在播客结尾，我们总是会问：你的联系方式是什么？
So at the end of podcast, we always say, so what are your connection channels and stuff?
如果有人听了这个播客或看了这个视频，你会引导他们去哪里？
If somebody hears this podcast or watches this video, where would you direct them?
是的，因为我已经放弃了我的网站和所有社交媒体，几乎不可能找到我。
Yeah, because I got rid of my website, all of my social media, it is almost impossible to find me.
我可以告诉你，现在只有一个链接可以找到我。
There is I'll tell you, there is one link available.
我想如果有人想的话，还是可以预约和我通话的。
I think people can still book calls with me if anyone wanted to.
链接是 links.fightthebeast.org。
It's links.fightthebeast.org.
我觉得这个链接应该还在运行，人们可以
I think it's still available and running and people can
所以你还在做辅导吗？
So you you still do coaching?
不太做了。
Not really.
对。
Right.
我不能随便接，我选辅导对象非常挑剔。
I can't like, I have I'm not really I'm very picky who I coach.
这已经不是公开可预约的事情了。
It's not just a publicly available thing anymore.
我偶尔还是会提供一些咨询环节。
I do still offer sometimes some sessions.
对。
Right.
我会进行一种叫做根源分析的咨询，帮助人们找出问题的根源。
I do what's called a root cause session where I help people identify.
这是我开发的一种方法。
This is something I developed.
而我开发这个方法的时候，正是我接触到OnlyFans的契机，因为我开始深入分析人们成瘾的根源，结果大吃一惊。
And it's actually when I developed this is how I got to OnlyFans because I started identifying the root cause of people's addiction and I was just blown away.
我当时就想，这跟我预期的完全不一样。
I was like, this is not what I expected.
对。
Right.
所以我现在还是会做这个。
So I do that.
然后我认为那个链接
And then I think that link
你确实有一个OnlyFans网站之类的东西吗？
You do have an OnlyFans site or something like that?
有的。
I do.
我有两个。
I have two.
所以从技术上讲，我认为我在那里的用户名，其中一个我不太愿意分享。
So technically, I think my screen name on there, one of them I don't like sharing this.
我不是在推广自己。
I'm not promoting myself.
你们呢？
Okay, you guys?
但我还是会分享一下，给那些好奇的人。
But I will share just in for the people who are curious.
Links.fightthebeast.org 上有我的所有链接，包括 OnlyFans。
Links.fightthebeast.org has all of my links on there, including the OnlyFans.
但你也可以去，我想我在那里的名字就是 Heather Nielsen。
But you can also go I think my name there is just Heather Nielsen.
他们可以在那里找到我。
They can find it there.
我只是
I just
还有 YouTube。
Also YouTube.
他们可以在 YouTube 上找到我。
They can find me on YouTube.
我的频道叫 Awaken with Heather。
I'm Awaken with Heather.
这也是我的另一个 OnlyFans 账号。
It's another one of my OnlyFans accounts as well.
Awaken with Heather.
Awaken with Heather.
所以OnlyFans在YouTube上吗？
So OnlyFans is on YouTube?
不。
No.
我在两个地方都用这个用户名。
I use that screen name in both places.
好的。
Okay.
明白了。
Gotcha.
懂了。
Understood.
好吧，听我说。
Well, listen.
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