第356期：嘉士伯的新大麦

这是由美洲酿酒师协会主办的首席酿酒师播客，这是一个致力于持续改进会员产品与工艺的志愿者组织。我们是运营团队。

This is the Master Brewers podcast brought to you by the Master Brewers Association of the Americas, a volunteer organization dedicated to continually improving the products and processes of our membership We're We're operations.

这

This

本集由以下赞助商支持。

episode was made possible by the following sponsors.

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然后事情就开始变得真正有趣了，因为现在你不仅能在大麦中拥有一个性状，还能产生叠加效应。

And then it starts to become really interesting because not only having one trait in one barley, now you can have an added effect.

本周节目中，我们将探讨嘉士伯的深度创新如何改变大麦育种的前景与时间表。

This week on the show, how serious innovation at Carlsberg is changing the outlook and timeline for barley breeding.

你好。

Hello.

我叫比尔吉特·斯卡达高。

My name is Birgitte Skadhauge.

我此刻正坐在哥本哈根的嘉士伯研究实验室。

I'm sitting here in Copenhagen at the Carlsberg Research Laboratory.

跟我们说说嘉士伯的新大麦品种以及它们解决了哪些问题。

Tell us about Carlsberg's new barleys and what problems they solve.

是的。

Yeah.

在嘉士伯研究实验室，多年来我们一直致力于开发新型麦芽大麦，重点聚焦于极高品质。

So in the Carlsberg Research Laboratory, we have actually for many, many years been working on developing new types of malting barley with a clear focus on very high quality.

但最近几年，我们也大力投入如何提升大麦的气候耐受性，以及开发全新的性状，这些不仅能促进可持续性，还能整体提升酿造性能。

But also now over the last few years also been working a lot on how we could improve, especially the climate tolerance, but also completely new traits that could benefit not only sustainability but also quality of brewing performance in general.

正如我之前提到的，嘉士伯很早就开始研发麦芽大麦，这一工作可追溯到一百多年前，当时一些顶级的麦芽大麦品种正是在欧洲这里确立的。

And this is an area where we, as I mentioned earlier, have started many, many years ago in Carlsberg to develop malting barley and that goes back to more than one hundred years ago, where some of the real high quality moulting barley varieties were established here in Europe.

我们一直在此基础上持续改进，不断优化适合嘉士伯的品种。

And we have continued to build on this quality development, constantly improving the varieties for Carlsberg.

好的，给我们讲讲你们的性状叠加进展。

Okay, walk us through your trait stacking progression.

从一代到下一代，有什么变化？

What's changed from one generation to the next?

现在哪些已经成熟，哪些即将推出？

What's ready now and what's coming soon?

在我们的性状叠加开发中，我想说，我们也是在很多年前就开始研究如何提升酿造品质。

So in our trait stacking developments, I would say we started also quite some years ago, you know, to work on how could we improve the brewing quality.

从技术角度来看，我们是这样做的。

And here we have a technology standpoint.

根据我们目前掌握的所有酿造性能和数据，来审视酿造过程。

Look at the brewing process based on all the brewing performance and data we have at hand today.

这极大地帮助我们开发出更适合的新品种，不仅让酿造过程更高效，还能让大麦品种适应更少的用水和能耗。

That helps us enormously also to develop new varieties that's better suited, not only for a more efficient brewing process, and also how can we adapt barley varieties for less water usage, less energy usage.

因此，这一直是我们的出发点：回溯数据，深入理解酿造过程，并思考如何优化我们的原材料，以简化整个流程。

So that has somehow been the standpoint going back with data and really understanding the brewing process and how would we like to optimise our raw materials in order to make it easier in the process.

因此，多年来我们也一直在大力研究遗传学。

So therefore we have for many, many years also been working quite a lot on understanding the genetics.

这要追溯到基因组测序。

So that goes back to genome sequencing.

我们参与了大型大麦基因组联盟，并于2017年在《自然》杂志上发表了相关成果。

We were part of the big barley genome consortium, and that goes back to 2017 where we published that in Nature.

拥有这一基因组序列当然也帮助我们理解了哪些性状，以及相应地应该针对哪些基因。

And having that genome sequence in hand has of course also helped us to understand what kind of traits and thereby also what kind of genes should we target.

为了加速这类性状的开发，我们很早就开始将这些性状结合起来并进行叠加。

And in order also to speed up that kind of trait development, we have started early on also to combine and stack some of those traits together.

我们多年前在实验室最早研究的性状之一，就是整个原花青素类黄酮通路，以使啤酒变得清澈透明。

One of the first traits we started to work on many years ago in the laboratory was the whole proantocyanidin of flavonoid pathway in order to make beer crystal clear.

如今，我们在这个项目中已有800多个突变体。

And we have more than 800 mutants in this pipeline today.

这帮助我们首先理解了整个流程，同时也探索如何为酿酒商生产出清澈透明的啤酒。

That helps us to understand first of all the pipeline, but also how can we generate crystal clear beer for brewers.

近年来，我们继续推进这一发展，重点关注兔子产品的质量，尤其是风味稳定性和新鲜度。

In the recent years we have continued that development where we also have been focused on quality for rabbits like especially flavor stability, freshness.

在这一工作中，我们开始研究一种名为脂氧合酶的脂质降解酶，包括脂氧合酶1和脂氧合酶2。

During that work we have started with one area which is the lipid degrading enzymes, lipoxygenase, lipoxygenase one, and also lipoxygenase two.

我们为此进行了大规模的筛选工作，鉴定出缺乏这种酶的大麦品种，这有助于降低大麦、麦芽、麦汁以及相应啤酒中反式-2-壬烯醛的含量。

And that was also quite a big screening work we have done there, where we have identified lipoxygenase one, barley ritis that's lacking this enzyme and that helps then to minimise or lower the trans-two nononal levels in barley but also in malt, in wort and also in the corresponding beer.

我们发现，这种物质引起的陈味（T2N）减少了50%以上。

And there we could see that we will have this staling off flavour, T2N, reduced by more than 50%.

此外，我们还观察到它显著提升了啤酒的泡沫稳定性与新鲜度。

On top of that, we could also see that it has provided very good foam stability, freshness to the

啤酒，从而也提升了消费者的购买意愿。

beer, and therefore also a better purchasing

在香气方面带来了优势，进而为消费者带来了切实的好处。

in scents, and thereby also some real consumer benefits.

这是一个非常有趣且良好的开端。

So quite an interesting good start.

然后我们当然继续了对脂氧合酶二的研究，最终将T2N水平降低了75%以上。

And then we have of course continued that journey into lipoxygenases also with lipoxygenase two, where we then at the end could lower the T2N levels with more than 75%.

我们性状开发的下一阶段是另一种啤酒中容易产生的异味，即DMS或DMSP的风味。

The next phase of our trait development has been another off flavour that easily can occur in beer, is the DMS or flavor of the DMSP.

这也能帮助麦芽厂和酿酒厂在麦芽制作和酿造过程中降低能耗。

And that's also something that can help maltors and also brewers to cut on energy consumption during the malting and the brewing process.

因此，我们识别出了一些不产生DMS或DMSP的遗传变异，这与大麦中的二甲基硫基因相关，并发现了这类突变体。

So here we have identified also genetic variants that's not producing the DMS or DMSP, so that's related to the dimethyl sulfide gene in barley, and identified these type of mutants.

这为酿酒厂和麦芽厂带来了非常有趣的新前景，既能节能，也可能提高麦芽产能，因为整个过程更快、更短。

And that has resulted then in some very interesting new perspectives for brewers, but also for mosses to reduce energy savings, but also a potentially higher molting capacity because you have a faster and shorter process.

在酿造方面，我们观察到酶活性增强，过滤速度加快，啤酒品质表现优异，因为完全没有了卷心菜类的异味。

For the brewing parts, we have seen increased enzyme levels, but also faster filtration and then very good beer quality performance because here you do not have any of the cabbage or flavour types.

用这种原料酿造的啤酒，同样不含DMS或相关异味。

When we make beer out of that, again, also no DMS or flavours in the beer.

接下来，我们采取了更进一步的措施，开始将这些不同性状进行叠加。

What we then did was that we took the next step because then we have started to stack those different traits together.

然后事情变得真正有趣了，因为现在你不仅能在一株大麦中拥有单一性状，还可以将脂氧合酶一与脂氧合酶二结合，再与零DMS结合，之后甚至还能实现无脯氨酸和无卓氧啶。

And then it starts to become really interesting because not only having one trait in one barley, now you can have an added effect actually of combining lipoxygenase one with lipoxygenase two, and then you can combine that with zero DMS and then later on also the pro and zooxynidine free.

我认为，通过将这些新性状叠加到单一的大麦品种中，我们确实看到了令人惊叹的啤酒品质提升。

And I think there we have really seen an amazing beer quality for combining and stacking some of those new traits into one barley variety.

这非常有趣。

That's very interesting.

所以，无酶的大麦其实并不是一个全新的概念。

So locks free barley isn't really a novel concept.

你们为什么首先聚焦在这里？

Why did you focus there first?

为什么从这里开始？

Why start there?

这主要是因为，我们开始注意到，嘉士伯在全球许多国家都生产啤酒。

Well, it was, basically because we start to see, you know, Carlsberg is also producing beer in many, many different countries around the world.

我们发现，啤酒在长途运输过程中，或者在高温环境下储存时，很容易产生这些不良风味，变得陈旧，或者单纯失去新鲜感。

And we can see long transportation of beer or, you know, if you store beer, at high temperatures, then the beer can easily turn into having some of these off flavors that it's getting still, it's getting a bit aged, or it's simply losing its freshness.

而这正是我们希望重点关注的质量指标之一，以便无论啤酒在何处生产，或是否需要长途运输，都能保持高度稳定的清新度和极佳的最终品质。

And that was actually one of the quality parameters that we would like to focus on so we could really keep a high stable freshness and a very, very good quality of the final beer, no matter where it was produced or if you would have to transport it over long distances.

我认为这一点确实得到了很好的验证。

And I think that really holds up.

我们在这项清新度、泡沫稳定性以及其他我们提到的参数上都看到了极其出色的表现。

And we have seen extremely good performance on this freshness, but also foam stability and the other parameters we talked about.

我可以告诉你，不久前我在弗吉尼亚州的一家杂货店买了一些，想亲自看看。

I can tell you, I actually picked up some, at a grocery store here in Virginia, not too long ago just to kinda see it for myself.

我可以证实，我没有察觉到任何陈腐的风味。

And, I can attest that, there was no staling flavors present that I could detect.

这非常好。

That's very

好。

good.

你们的做法是有效的。

You're doing is working.

是的。

Yeah.

那也不错。

That's good too.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我问你一个问题。

Let me ask you this.

我们从第三百二十五期的埃里克·桑普那里了解到，植物中锁状结构的产生与抗伤口能力、抗真菌特性以及促进生长有关。

So we learned from Eric Sampe back on episode three twenty five that production of locks in plants is related to wound resistance, antifungal properties and supporting growth.

那么，消除大麦中的锁状结构会使植物更容易受到侵害吗？

Does eliminating locks in barley make the plant more vulnerable?

这实际上是我们一直密切关注、并进行测试和评估的领域。

That is actually something we have had a very close eye on and have been testing and evaluating.

我们已经开展了大量的田间试验。

And we have been running a lot, lot of field trials.

我们已经对这些脂氧合酶1和LOX2品种，以及无DMS品种进行了超过二十五年的测试。

And we have been testing all these lipoxygenase one and LOX two varieties and also the null DMS varieties now for more than twenty five years.

我们没有发现它们与其他品种有任何差异。

And we have not seen any difference compared to other varieties.

所以，我们再次未能观察到任何变化。

So again, we have not been able to see any change there.

因此，这当然是个好消息，但为了预防在识别出这些突变体后可能出现的其他非预期变化，我们还进行了大量回交。

So of course this is very good news, but what we also have been doing in order to prevent, if there should be other unwanted changes after you have identified these mutants, then we have been doing a lot of backcrossing.

因此，这对我们来说至关重要：当我们获得低脂氧合酶的新遗传变体时，我们会将它们与高产、表现良好且具有优良抗病性的品种进行回交。

So that has actually been quite a key for us, that when we have had those new genetic variants with low depoxygenase, then we have been back crossing them to high yielding, you know, good performing with good disease resistance.

所以我认为，这也是我们确保大麦品种整体优良抗病性的一个关键策略。

So I think that has also been one of the tricks that we have secured, you know, the whole, I would say, good disease resistance in the barley variety.

好的。

Okay.

你刚才提到了泡沫稳定性。

You mentioned foam stability a bit ago.

这些新大麦的泡沫稳定性具体是如何改善的？

How exactly has foam stability improved in these new barleys?

我认为我们其实还没有完全理解，但我们有一个理论。

Well I think actually we don't fully understand it, but we have a theory.

我们其中一个合理的理论是，许多这些分解脂肪的酶也会抑制泡沫的形成。

And one of the theories we have, and which makes sense, is that you know many of these fat degrading enzymes, they are also inhibiting foam formation.

如果你在代谢途径的早期就消除并敲除其中一些组分，那么你也会消除那些可能降低泡沫稳定性的脂质或脂肪酸。

And if you now start then to eliminate and actually knock out some of these components quite early in the pathway, then you will also eliminate some of the lipids or the fatty acids that could reduce foam.

这并不是我们深入研究的内容，但我们一直观察到，无论是脂氧合酶1和2品种，还是使用NIPEM方法，泡沫稳定性都有所提升。

So it's not something we have been studying a lot in detail, but we have been able to actually constantly see that the foam stability has been improved in the lipoxygenase one and two varieties, and also using the NIPEM method.

这就是我们检测它的方法。

So that's the way we have been checking it.

是的，我们的许多合作者也观察到了相同的现象。

And yeah, many of our collaborators have seen the same.

我想不必深入太多细节，我很想多了解一些关于DMS消除的情况，比如它是如何起作用的，以及是否存在其他相关权衡。

I guess without going too far into the weeds, I'd love to learn a little bit more about elimination of DMS, like sort of how that's working and if there are any other trade offs related to that.

再多讲讲这个。

Me more about that.

是的，实际上我们采用了与消除脂氧合酶1和脂氧合酶2类似的方法，在嘉士伯建立了非常庞大的文库，并设定了筛选方法，用于检测这种S-甲基硫醚。

Yeah, so actually we took a little bit the same approach just like with the lipoxygenase one and LOX2, where we have made very, very big libraries in Carlsberg, where we have then identified, set up a screening method, where we have been testing for this S methyl sulfide.

这种物质是产生DMS或导致DMS以及DMSP的成分。

And that's the component that gives the DMS or leads to DMS and also laser DMSP.

它会带来卷心菜或煮玉米的不良风味，而在发芽过程中，当你拥有绿麦芽时，必须进行烘干。

And it gives this cabbage or cooked corn off flavor, and very often during the moulting process, when you have the green malt, then you have to kiln it.

而烘干的目的正是为了去除DMS和DMSP。

And that's actually to get rid of the DMS and also DMSP.

当你制备完第一道麦汁后，还需要将麦汁煮沸，以蒸发掉DMS和DMSP。

And when you have then been making your first wort, you also have to then boil your wort in order to evaporate DMS and DMSP.

因此，拥有一个不产生这些成分的双亲本，自然能大幅降低其含量，从而避免最终产品中出现这种不良风味。

So having now a bilurality that's not producing any of those components, that of course helps you also enormously then to lower the content, and you will not experience this off flavor in the final product.

因此，这首先有助于缩短麦芽制造过程中的烘干时间，同时对酿酒师而言也能节省能源，因为蒸发量减少了；此外，如果系统允许，他们还能缩短煮沸过程。

So it helps, first of all, to lower or shorten the kilning process during molting for the molters, but also for the brewers they can also reduce energy savings because here they will have less evaporation, And they will also be able, basically, if the system allows it, that they can shorten the wet boiling process.

你认为这些优势主要对大型拉格啤酒厂有意义，还是小型精酿啤酒厂也值得关注？

Do you think that these benefits are mainly relevant to large lager breweries or is there something here that smaller craft brewer should really care about too?

我认为小型拉格啤酒厂也能受益，因为一旦结合了这些特性，就能轻松消除多种不良风味的形成，确保啤酒保持新鲜优质的口感，同时也能避免其他风味在生产过程中产生。

I think also smaller lager breweries could benefit of that because it is somehow if you have these combined traits, I think it's really safeguarding a lot of these off flavor formations that you can eliminate those in an easy way, and make sure that you have this good fresh beer quality, but also with some of the other all flavors where you will not be prone to having those developing in your process.

我知道大型啤酒厂在这些工艺上都设计得极为精准。

Because I know big breweries are also extremely accurately designed for all these type of processes.

但对于精酿啤酒厂来说，流程可能更灵活一些，而这种特性提供了一种更稳妥的方式，避免最终产品出现不良风味。

But for microbreweries, it's probably a little bit more flexible and sometimes it could be a safe way to avoid some of these off flavors the final product.

好的。

Okay.

除了我们目前讨论的这些，嘉士伯还在关注哪些其他性状？

Any other traits that Carlsberg is targeting besides what we've talked about so far?

是的

Yeah.

另一个我们正在深入研究的领域是气候耐受性。

Then another area we are actually looking a lot into is climate tolerance.

气候正在迅速变化。

Climate is something that is changing rapidly.

我认为在欧洲我们已经看到了这一点，但在亚洲——我们在这里也非常活跃——也开始看到气候正在以极快的速度变化。

I think here in Europe we see it, but also in Asia where we also are very active, we start to see how climate is really changing extremely fast.

这当然也影响着我们的原材料，不仅影响农民的产量，还影响最终原材料的质量。

And that is of course also affecting our raw materials, not only the yield for the farmers, but also the quality of the final raw materials.

十多年前，我们就已经开始研究抗旱性和耐热性。

And we had started more than a decade ago also to work on drought tolerance, on heat tolerance.

由于气候变化，病害抗性也在变化，你看到各种疾病越来越频繁地出现。

Disease resistance is also changing due to climate change, you see different diseases that start to occur more and more frequently.

我们也在研究有助于缩短生长期的性状。

We also look into traits that can help us for a shorter growth cycle.

因此，我们是否可以开始在北方地区种植大麦？这些地区可能有稍长的生长期，降雨更多，产量也可能更高。

So can we start to grow barley, for example, in the northern regions, where maybe we have a slightly longer growth season, but also where we can have more rain and where there could be a better productivity.

同样，我们需要让一些品种适应这些生长条件。

Again, then adapting some of the varieties to these growing conditions.

我有一个很好的例子，说明我们如何利用一些古老性状来实现这一目标。

And I have a good example where we are using also some ancient traits in order to develop that.

籽粒大小、饱满度，以及其他目标，当然还包括优异的淀粉组成。

Grain size, plumpness of the kernels, other targets, and then of course having a very good starch composition.

淀粉组成也深受气候变化影响，尤其是在籽粒灌浆期遭遇严重干旱时，往往会观察到更多小淀粉粒而非大淀粉粒，这会显著提高发酵能力和提取率。

So the starch composition is also heavily affected by climate change, especially if you have severe drought during grain filling, then you tend to see that you have many more of the smaller starch granules compared to the big ones, which can give a much higher fermentability and also extract levels.

因此，我们开始了解背后的一些基因，并探索如何利用这些信息进行选育。

So again, we start to understand some of the genes behind that and how we also can use that for selection.

我们还有一个非常近期的发现，我们认为极其有趣，那就是收获前发芽。

And then we have a very recent example of something we find extremely interesting, namely pre harvest sprouting.

收获前发芽是一个全球性的重要问题。

And pre harvest sprouting is quite a big problem worldwide.

这通常是没什么问题的事，但每隔几季就会出一次问题，对吧？

It's one of those things that's not a problem most of the time, but then it's a problem every so many harvests, right?

一旦出问题，那就是大问题。

And when it is a problem, it's big one.

确实是大问题。

It's a huge one.

在谷物上，我们看到的损失高达数十亿美元。

And it's actually billions of dollars in losses we see in cereals.

在世界某些地区，收获前常常下很多雨。

It's a very often, there are certain areas around the world that have a lot of rain just before harvest.

于是，谷物在田里还长在植株上的时候就开始发芽了。

And then, you know, the grains can start to sprout when they are standing on the plants in the field.

这当然会破坏品质，也会让农民减产。

And then it's of course destroying the quality, but it's also destroying the yield for the farmers.

而且通常不得不丢弃，因为还会感染霉菌。

And very often you will have to discard it because it also gets mold infected.

所以这是一个严重的问题。

So it is a serious problem.

而且由于气候变化导致极端天气增多，我们开始越来越频繁地看到这个问题。

And it's actually a problem we also start to see more and more frequently with some of the climate change with this more extreme weather.

因此，我们早在几年前就开始研究背后的机制，这是一项与法国研究机构以及其它大学合作伙伴开展的重大合作。

So we have started quite some years ago to look into what are the mechanisms behind that, and that was a big collaboration we have had with research in France, is one of our collaborators, but also with other university partners.

现在，我们已经破解了MKK3基因的谜题，这个基因正是控制这一性状的关键。

And then we have been able now to solve the puzzle on MKK3 gene, which is actually the gene behind this trait.

因此，你几乎可以说，这个MKK3基因帮助大麦在我们需要时正常发芽。

So you could almost say that this MKK3 gene helps the barley, of course, to be able to germinate when we want it.

但我们也知道，拥有正确类型的MKK3基因，还能帮助我们控制田间发生的预收获发芽过程。

But we also know that having the right type of this MKK3 gene can help us then also to control this germination process or the pre harvest sprouting process in the field.

据我理解，预发芽问题的很大一部分原因在于，多年来我们基本上已经将大麦的休眠特性育种掉了。

As I understand it, a lot of the pre sprout problem is that we've for many for many years, we've basically bred dormancy out of barley.

是的。

Yeah.

这么说，这真的是MKK3基因所导致的情况吗？那我们该如何确保大麦具有适当的休眠程度呢？

Is that really, you know, is that what happened what's what's going on here with MKK3, and and what's the solution for making sure that the that barley has the right amount of dormancy?

因为你需要一定的休眠来防止发芽，但又不能太多，否则你得等上很久才能用来酿造，对吧？

Because you need some to prevent pre sprout, but you don't want too much because then you have to wait forever to malt it, right?

你说得完全对。

You're fully right.

这正是我们所观察到的，而关于基因如何在全球传播的历史洞察，也帮助我们理解了这一点。

And that's actually what we have seen, and that's also where this historical insight on genes, you know, how they have traveled around the world, has helped us actually to understand that.

因为我们知道，如果回溯到大约1600年，斯堪的纳维亚地区采用刀耕火种农业时，他们选育了那些几乎不休眠、发芽极快的大麦品种。

Because we know, actually if we go back to around 1600, when in Scandinavia had this slash and burn agriculture, they selected for barley where pre harvest sprouting or where barley was actually germinating extremely fast where there was hardly any dormancy.

因为他们希望一年内能种植多轮大麦，这也是当时生存的一种方式。

Because they would most likely like to grow several generations of barley per year, And so that was one way also to survive at that time.

这种基因后来传播到了挪威、奥克尼群岛、冰岛，甚至到了加拿大和美国。

That gene has then travelled over to Norway, to Orkney Island, to Iceland, even to Canada and to The US.

我认为，在美国的气候条件下，这种特性确实表现得相当好，因为在像欧洲中部这样更湿润的地区，休眠可能并不是必需的。

And I think with the climate you have in The US, also see that it works actually quite well because dormancy is maybe not something that is needed in the more wet regions like we have in more central part of Europe.

在那片大草原上，我们发现干燥的气候条件或那里的生长环境并不会因休眠期极短而出现问题。

And there we could see that the dry weather conditions you have on the prairie or the growth conditions you have there, that was not a problem to have very little dormancy.

但后来我们发现，澳大利亚的育种者曾使用过哈灵顿品种，并将其用于澳大利亚大麦的杂交育种。

But then we found out that breeders from Australia had been using some of the Harrington, for instance, and used that for crossings into Australian barley.

这实际上引发了不少问题，因为在澳大利亚的温度和生长条件下，将休眠期极短的基因组合在一起，很容易导致严重的收获前发芽。

And that actually caused quite some problems because making that new combinations where there was very little dormancy in Australia with the temperatures and other growth conditions there, that could actually trigger a very fast pre harvest sprouting.

因此，即使是清晨的露水或夜间田间的湿气，也足以触发这种收获前发芽。

So even morning dew or dew on the fields at nighttime was enough actually to make this pre harvest sprouting really initiate that.

这是一个相当有趣的发现。

So that was quite an interesting finding.

现在，我们已经确定了在遗传背景中非常关键的MKK3基因类型。

So now we have found out what type of MKK3 gene that's very important to have in the genetics.

就在两个月前，我们与项目中的同事们一起在《科学》期刊上发表了这一成果。

And we have now been publishing this result together with our colleagues in this big project here in science here just two months ago.

当然，我们正在与全世界分享这一成果。

And of course, this is a result that we are sharing with the whole world.

这些科学文章中包含了大量信息。

And lots and lots of information in these science articles.

如果大家有兴趣了解如何利用这种新基因技术来避免收获前发芽，我鼓励大家去查阅一下。

I can encourage people to go and take a look at it if they are interested in understanding how they can use this new genetics to avoid pre harvest sprouting.

是的，这很棒。

Yeah, that's great.

如果你不介意的话，把那些文章的链接发给我，我们会把它们放在节目笔记里，供想进一步了解的人参考。

If you don't mind, send me links to those and we'll put them in the show notes for people that want to Yeah, learn

我很乐意这么做。

I'll be happy to do that.

马上开始。

Coming up.

这也会让全世界的啤酒爱好者感到兴奋，因为有了新奇有趣的发现。

That could excite also beer drinkers around the world with something new and exciting.

我是约翰·布莱斯，您正在收听美洲酿酒师协会的《大师酿酒师》播客。

I'm John Bryce, and you're listening to the Master Brewers podcast from the Master Brewers Association of the Americas.

让这个播客持续下去的唯一原因，就是像您这样的听众花时间感谢我们的赞助商。

There's really only one thing that keeps this podcast going, and that's when listeners like you take the time to thank our sponsors.

下次您与这些公司的代表交谈时，一定要感谢他们慷慨的支持。

The next time you talk to a rep from one of these companies, be sure to thank them for their generous support.

介绍 Wehrman Isaria '19 24，一种充满经典拉格风味的 heirloom 德国大麦品种。

Meet Wehrman Isaria '19 24, an heirloom German barley variety bursting with classic lager character.

Isaria 早在一个多世纪前就获得商业使用批准，具有柔和的饼干香气和多层次的甜味深度，曾定义了传统的德国啤酒风格，如 Kellerbeer、Martzen 和 Zeugl。

First approved for commercial use over a century ago, Isaria possesses a soft biscuity aroma and multi sweet depth that once defined traditional German styles like Kellerbeer, Martzen, and Zeugl.

Isaria 非常适合现代精酿拉格和麦芽风味突出的艾尔啤酒，可用于高达 100% 的淡色拉格、深色箱型啤酒及其他啤酒中。

Ideal for modern craft lagers and malt forward ales, Isaria can be used at up to 100% in pale lagers, dark box and elsewhere.

如需了解有关维生素的更多信息，请联系 Rawr BSG。

For all things vitamin, contact Rawr BSG.

了解 Proximity Malt。

Get to know Proximity Malt.

我们酿造的麦芽来自特选的欧洲低蛋白品种，这些大麦在特拉华州和科罗拉多州本地种植。

We malt superior European style low protein varieties grown close to home in Delaware and Colorado.

国内种植，精准按风格麦芽化。

Domestically grown, precisely malted to style.

凭借我们经验丰富的团队和两座全新的麦芽厂，体验真正创新的麦芽。

With our team of seasoned experts and two brand new malt houses, try what's really new in malt.

访问 www.proximitymalt.com 了解我们。

Check us out at www.proximitymalt.com.

如果你在欧洲收听，我有个令人兴奋的消息。

If you're listening from Europe, I've got some exciting news.

我一直在努力为你带来与超过5000家美国啤酒厂所使用的相同市场透明度、品种选择、有竞争力的价格和高效物流，这些啤酒厂已通过这种方式采购了超过900万磅的啤酒花。

I've been working hard to bring you the same market transparency, variety and selection, competitive pricing and streamline logistics that more than 5,000 American breweries have used to source over 9,000,000 pounds of hops.

在我们的净推荐值调查中，酿酒师一致认为Lupulin Exchange是最方便、最简单、最便宜、最快捷的啤酒花采购方式。

In our NPS surveys, brewers consistently rate the Lupulin Exchange as the most convenient, easiest, cheapest, and fastest way to order hops.

现在，我们终于服务欧洲了。

And now we're finally serving Europe.

Lupulinexchange.com。

Lupulinexchange.com.

一站购齐，所有啤酒花应有尽有。

One stop, all the hops.

接下来为您播报酿酒大师日历的 upcoming 活动安排。

And here's what's coming up on the Master Brewers calendar.

纽约州西部分区将于3月26日开展线下交流活动。

District Western New York meets its strange bird, March 26.

佐治亚分区和中南部分区将联手于3月27日，在德卢斯市的Good Word精酿酒吧举办春季技术研讨会。

Districts Georgia and Mid South team up for a spring technical conference March 27 at Good Word Brewing and Public House in Duluth.

落基山分会将于3月30日在利特尔顿的Carboy酒庄聚会。

District Rocky Mountain meets at Carboy Winery in Littleton, March 30.

圣路易斯分会

District St.

将于4月9日在施拉夫利酒吧举办春季会议。

Louis has a spring meeting April 9 at the Schlafly Tap Room.

纽约分会春季技术会议将于4月10日在长岛市的文化实验室举办。

The District New York Spring Technical Conference is April 10 at Culture Lab in Long Island City.

还有一次酿酒师协会地区官员线上欢乐时光，4月15日。

There's another Master Brewers District Officers Virtual Happy Hour, April 15.

匹兹堡地区将在5月7日于老雷声酿酒公司举办社交活动。

District Pittsburgh has a social hour at Old Thunder Brewing Company, May 7.

西北地区年度春季会议将于五月在美丽的胡德河举行。

District Northwest annual spring meeting in beautiful Hood River is May.

圣路易斯地区将于5月21日举行工作交流会，地点待定。

District Saint Louis meets May 21 for shop talk location TBD.

是时候在日历上标记2026年酿酒师协会大会了。

It's time to mark your calendars for the twenty twenty six Master Brewers Conference.

大会将在弗吉尼亚州弗吉尼亚海滩举行，时间为10月22日至24日。

That'll be in Virginia Beach, Virginia, October 22 to the twenty fourth.

如需了解更多详情或查找您附近的地区会议，请访问mbaa.com查看完整日程。

Check out the full calendar events at mbaa.com for more details or to find a district meeting near you.

现在回到节目。

Now back to the show.

好的。

Okay.

比尔吉特，为什么嘉士伯认为古代DNA是加速气候适应的蓝图？

Birgitte, why does Carlsberg believe ancient DNA is the blueprint for accelerated climate adaptation?

是的。

Yeah.

在嘉士伯实验室，我们也有一个部门专注于一些长期的科学成果，这些成果与气候变化相关或受其影响。

In the Carlsberg laboratory, we also have a part of the house that's working on some of the very long term scientific results and also adapted or, you know, related to climate change.

我们在这个领域的工作方式有点像大学，做一些普通育种者通常不会做的事。

And maybe we work in that part a little bit like a university where we do something that's maybe not what the normal breeder would do.

但我们确实开始从不同的角度看待问题。

But we really start to see things from a different perspective.

我们曾与哥本哈根大学的埃斯克·维拉斯卢合作开展一个大型项目，研究水稻以及水稻在数千年间的变化，以及气候变化如何影响水稻的演化。

And we actually had a big project that was running together with Eske Villasleu from Copenhagen University about rice and understanding how rice has changed over many thousands of years, and how climate change also had an impact on the rice development.

在过去的十万年里，哪些性状在气候变化中存活了下来？

What kind of traits have survived during climate change over the last ten thousand years?

当时，不幸的是，我们遇到了新冠疫情，无法从亚洲许多水稻生产国获取样本，而这些国家本是我们研究水稻湖沉积层DNA的目标。

And at that time, unfortunately, we had COVID and we could not get samples from many of the rice producing countries in Asia where we were supposed to look into DNA samples of some of these layers from the rice lakes.

但随后，哥本哈根大学表示：实际上，我有很多来自格陵兰最北部一个叫哥本哈根的地方的样本。

But then instead, Copenhagen University said, Well, actually I have a lot of samples from the very far north part of Greenland, a place called Copenhagen.

那个地方离北极非常近。

It's quite close to the North Pole.

也许我们可以从中找到一些DNA，看看植物是如何在数万年间适应环境的。

And maybe we can find some DNA and see how plants have adapted over many, many thousands of years.

于是他开始研究这些DNA，我们也能协助他们识别出某些DNA片段，并发现许多不同植物物种已经适应了格陵兰北部的特殊环境。

So he started then to look into the DNA and we could then also help them to identify some of those DNA pieces and see also that plants, many different plant species have adapted to a very special environment in the Northern part of Greenland.

当这些DNA样本被测定年代后，结果发现这是世界上已知最古老的DNA，距今200万年。

And then when he got the DNA dated, it actually turned out that it was the oldest DNA in the world, 2,000,000 years old DNA.

他发现了一个庞大的生态系统，基于这些来自植物、树木、野兔、乳齿象、鸟类等的DNA样本。

And he found a huge ecosystem based on all these DNA samples from, of course, plants and trees and hares, mastodons, it was birds and so on.

当时，格陵兰北部的夏季平均气温约为十五至十六摄氏度。

And at that time, the average temperature in the northern part of Greenland was around fifteen, sixteen degrees in summertime.

当然，当时存在着一个庞大的生态系统，但它们的白昼时间也非常短。

And there were of course this enormous ecosystem that was running, but they also had very short day lengths.

我们观察到的许多植物，经过不同植物物种的分析，都具有一种特殊的特性。

And many of the plants we could see going through some of the different plant species had a very special trait.

它们适应了在更多蓝光条件下生长的特性。

They were adapted with, you know, a trait where they could grow under more blue light.

因此，它们拥有一个蓝光受体基因，能够适应这种短日照环境。

So they had a blue light receptor gene, they could adapt to this short day length.

在嘉士伯，我们建立了一个庞大的库，可以非常快速地筛选这些基因，结果我们确实在这个库中发现了一种现代大麦品种，其基因突变点与这种蓝光受体完全一致。

And in Carlsberg we have developed a huge library where we can screen them very, very fast, and then we were actually able to identify a modern barley variety in those libraries here, with exactly that point mutations like this blue light receptor had.

随后，我们培育并测试了这种大麦品种，观察它在丹麦——也就是哥本哈根这里的条件下的表现，同时也检验它在更北纬地区、日照更短的环境中的实际表现。

And then we could test that barley variety propagated and tested and see how is that performing, of course, on the Danish conditions where we are here in Copenhagen, but also see how is that actually working on the more Northern Hemisphere with a shorter day length.

目前，我们正在评估这种大麦品种，同时也在更深入地研究过去数千年间气候变化的历程，以及植物是如何适应这些变化的。

So right now we are evaluating this type of valley, and we are also looking even more into how did climate change over the last many thousand years ago, and how did plants develop to that.

我们希望将这些信息作为新的遗传资源，用于指导当今如何利用这些知识来培育适应未来气候的作物——不仅限于大麦，也可能包括小麦、谷物或其他作物。我们可以从过去汲取经验，为应对即将到来的气候变化，打造更强大、更可持续的粮食系统。

And we would like to utilise that information as a new genetic source also for how can we use that knowledge today to adapt future crops, not only barley, it could also be wheat or cereals or other crops, so we could learn from the past, and use that for making an even more, I would say, for a boost food system today or in the future with the climate change we have coming up.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

那么告诉我，FIND-IT 是什么？它和传统育种有什么不同？

So tell me, what is FIND-IT, and how does it differ from conventional breeding?

FIND-IT 是我们可以在嘉士伯实验室开发的一种性状改良技术。

FIND-IT is, I would say that's a trait development technology we have been developing here in the Carlsberg laboratory.

我知道世界上有几个地方已经批准了转基因或 CRISPR 技术。

I know several places around the world, GMO or CRISPR is approved.

但欧洲这里还没有批准，而且我认为我们啤酒行业的许多消费者仍然对饮用含有转基因生物的啤酒有些犹豫。

But it's still not approved here in Europe, and I think also many of our consumers in the beer industry are still a bit reluctant to drink beer with GMO organisms.

因此，嘉士伯很早就决定，或许可以找到其他替代方法，于是我们开发了一项技术，称之为 FIND-IT。

So we have early on actually decided in Carlsberg, there could be other alternative ways, and therefore we have developed a technology which is FIND-IT, we call it.

这实际上是一种技术，我们拥有大量样本——在此例中是大麦，当然也可以是小麦或其他任何作物、谷物或微生物，它都适用。

And that's actually a technology where we have a big population of, in this case barley, can be wheat or any other kind of crop or cereal or microorganism it works in, whatever.

你在这个群体中诱导不同的点突变，然后种植两代，接着在两到三周内就能对四十万、五十万甚至六十万株个体植株进行筛选。

Where you induce different point mutations in that population, then you grow it for two generations, and then you're making a screening of, yeah, within two, three weeks you can screen between four hundred five hundred thousand, 600,000 individual plants.

这已经足够了，尤其是在大麦中，从统计学角度来看，能够准确识别出你感兴趣的新型性状或遗传变异。

And that's actually enough, especially in barley, to identify exactly the type of new traits or genetic variant that you are interested in from a statistical point of view.

因此，这是一种超快速识别新性状和目标的方法，但当然你需要清楚自己感兴趣的是哪种特性、哪种性状。

So this is an ultra fast way of identifying new traits and targets, but you of course will need to understand what kind of property, what kind of trait are you interested in.

你还需要对基因组有相当深入的了解，知道具体是哪个基因。

You also need to have quite a good knowledge about the genome, what kind of gene is it.

因此，我们可以在这里识别出敲除突变体，也能发现替换突变或启动子变异，即不同类型的新型遗传变异。

So we can identify here knockout mutants, we can find also substitutions or promoter variants, so different types of new genetic variants.

这项技术非常棒的一点是它速度快，而且你还能在一个高产的大麦品种、小麦品种或任何你感兴趣的生物体中构建这个大型文库。

And the very, very good thing about this technology is that it's fast, But here you also make this big library in a high yielding barley variety or wheat variety, whatever organism you're interested in.

这使得整个育种过程变得容易得多，因为如果你从一个高产、品质优良的品种开始，就不需要进行大量额外的杂交。

And that makes it so much easier also for the whole breeding part, Because starting in something that's high yielding, good quality, then you do not need to make a lot of extra crosses.

当然，你仍需进行回交，但它能极大帮助你维持最终产品的最佳品质，同时保持产量和抗病性。

Of course, you should make your back crossings, but it helps you enormously to really maintain the best quality of your end product, but also yield and disease resistance.

所以你已经拥有了整个农艺性状组合。

So the whole agronomic package you already have there.

这是一个巨大的优势，你不需要花费多年育种努力来提升产量和其他这些指标至标准水平。

And that's a big, big benefit where you will not need to use many years of breeding efforts get the yields and all these other things up to a standard.

所以这听起来像是相对于分子标记辅助育种的一大飞跃？

So it sounds like this is a pretty big leap forward from marker assisted breeding?

是的。

Yeah.

然后你就能立即获得分子标记。

And then you have the marker immediately.

因此，在开始筛选时，将这一点应用于育种群体的选择也变得非常容易。

So it's very easy also then to implement that and use that for the selection in your breeding populations than when you start your screening.

所以你确切地知道这个遗传变异。

So you know exactly that genetic variant.

我必须说，这对我们实验室的帮助真的非常大。

So I must say that has really been an enormous help for us here in the laboratory.

我们今天所有的新性状基本上都是通过这项技术实现的。

And all our new traits today is basically made through this technology.

而且这是传统育种，不是转基因，因此不需要额外的注册或审批。

And then it's conventional, it's not GMO, so there's no extra registration or approvals of this type.

这是一种标准品种。

It's a standard variety.

是的，这太棒了。

Yeah, that's great.

好的，我想了解更多关于目前真正商业化的产品和仍在研发中的产品之间的区别。

Okay, I want to hear more about what's actually commercially available today versus what's still in the pipeline.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们现在有很多项目在研发中，而且还会陆续增加。

So today we have a lot in the pipeline, and there's more to come.

现在，许多与气候相关的性状都在研发管线中，数量不少。

And now many of those, the climate related traits, there is a lot coming in the pipeline.

还有很多科学项目正在进行，它们会逐步涌现，当然其中许多也会被发表。

There's a lot of still scientific projects, and they will come dripping, you know, and many of those will of course also be published.

我们正在与全球分享来自嘉士伯实验室的这些科学成果。

Are sharing many of these, you know, more scientific results here from the Carlsberg laboratory with the world.

因此，我们也开放了我们的三G和四G巴厘岛品种，也就是无LOX、无DMS、原花青素品种。

So we also have opened up our three gs and four gs Bali, so that's the null LOX, null DMS, proanthocyanidine varieties.

所以在这里，我们列出了大约十种已上市的品种。

So again here we have a list of probably 10 varieties on the market.

如果育种者、麦芽制造商或酿酒商有兴趣测试或使用这些品种，他们可以联系我们，因为我们非常乐意在全球范围内推广，只要有人感兴趣。

And there's a possibility if breeders or mosses or brewers are interested in testing or utilising that, then they can contact us because we are quite open to have that distributed around the world if there's any interest test to it.

因此，我们还与法国的合作者SECORPA合作，针对大陆和沿海地区开展工作，他们在美国、南美洲、欧洲和澳大利亚的许多地方也进行了大量测试。

So we are targeting also together with our collaborators in France, SECORPA, a research continental but also maritime regions, and they are also doing quite a lot of testings in The US but also in South America, and of course a lot of places in Europe and in Australia.

所以，如今这些性状已在许多地区得到应用。

So we are having many of those traits in many of those regions today.

我们还测试了我们所谓的三D、四D品种，正如我刚才提到的。

We also have tested our, what we call three d, four d varieties, as I just mentioned.

这些品种已被培育出来，既可以作为传统麦芽使用，也非常适合用于辅料酿造。

They have been developed so it can also be used as an old malt, but they also work very well in adjunct brewing.

我们还没来得及讨论酿造试验，但我想你已经对这些品种进行了一些重要的酿造试验，以证明它们在降低DMS、LOX、反式异构体以及其他你所解决的问题方面的优势，对吧？

And we didn't get into the brewing trials already, but I mean you've done some significant brewing trials with those varieties to prove the benefits in terms of DMS and LOX and transudone and all the other issues that you're solving there, right?

所以我不确定，到目前为止你做的酿造试验中有什么值得提及的吗？

So I don't know, is there anything worth mentioning about the brewing trials you've done so far?

我认为这主要是验证性的，因为当然，能在小规模上看到某个品种的表现符合标准和市场水平总是令人欣慰的。

Well, I think it's just proofing because of course it's always nice to see it in a small scale that a variety is performing according to the standards and what's on the market.

但真正能证明这一点的是当规模扩大后，有多家啤酒厂和麦芽厂了解这些品种并积累了一些经验，开始看到低DMS、低总HACE的一致性表现。

But what really proof point it is when you get up in scale and there are multiple breweries, there are multiple maltries who understand the varieties and who starts to get some experience and you start to see some consistency in low DMS, in low total HACE.

这就是不含原花青素的特性，它能产出非常清澈的啤酒，无需任何啤酒稳定处理。

So that's the proanthocyanidin free trait here where you have this very crystal clear beer without any type of beer stabilisation.

同时，啤酒的新鲜度和不良风味也得到了显著优化或提升。

But also that the freshness and off flavour is really optimised or improved.

此外，是的，泡沫稳定性也同样得到了改善。

Also, yeah, of course the foam stability.

所以当你真正扩大规模时，看到它确实有效，这当然非常棒。

So it's of course very nice when you start to really get up in scale and you see it's actually working.

它运行得非常好。

It is working really well.

所以如果我明天去喝一杯嘉士伯，它用的是四gs大麦吗？还是还没用？

And so is that like if I go to drink a Carlsberg tomorrow, is it made with four gs barley or not yet?

在一些地方，是的。

In some places, yeah.

在世界上的某些地方，这取决于你身处何地。

In some places in the world, it depends a little bit where you are.

但我们已经在不同地方推广了。

But we have it out in different places.

而且我们还有一些育种者，如今在欧洲和其他地区正将三gs或四gs性状纳入他们的培育体系，以便获得同样的好处。

And we also have a few, you know, some breeders who are working with it today in Europe and other places in the world, where they are now adapting the three gs or the four gs traits into their pipeline so they can get some of the same benefits.

听起来太像手机套餐了。

Sounds too much like a cell phone plan, though.

四代，五代。

Four g, five g.

好的。

Alright.

我们来看看。

Let's see.

我其实想问问时间线，你知道的，从在实验室发现一个有潜力的性状，到将其投入商业麦芽，最终送到酿酒师手中，中间需要经历哪些步骤。

I kinda wanted to ask sort of like the the timeline, you know, what has to happen between finding a a promising trait in the lab to getting it into a commercial malt and, you know, into a brewer's into a brewer's hands.

我不太确定。

And I don't know.

我想听听现在这个时间线是怎样的，和传统育种相比如何，毕竟我们都知道传统育种是一个非常漫长的过程。

I guess it would be interesting to hear what that timeline looks like now versus conventional breeding, which as we all know is a very long process.

我很多年前刚进入啤酒行业时，也是一名育种工作者。

Well, I started in the brewing industry as a breeder also many years ago.

当我刚起步时，至少需要十年才能培育出一个新品种。

And when I started, think we used in the beginning at least ten years to make a new variety.

是的，十年、十五年，是的。

Yeah, ten, fifteen years, yeah.

所以今天，从发现一个性状到完成，大概只需要两到三周。

So today, our process from finding a trait, that takes probably two, three weeks.

然后可能需要一年时间进行回交，并将其杂交到高产品种中，这时你开始扩大规模。

Then it takes maybe a year to back cross and also to then cross it into, you know, where you have, then you are back crossing it into a high yielding variety, then you start to scale it.

所以这又需要大约一年时间。

So that takes probably another year.

从获得真正的品系并开始杂交算起，到我们拥有300吨被列在官方品种名录中的批准品种，通常需要两到三年。

So from having the real line ready, and having to trade into the cross, From that time point from when we are crossing it, and then on to we have, let's say, 300 tonnes of an approved variety on the official variety list, that takes us normally two and a half to three years.

哇。

Wow.

这是一项显著的改进。

That's a considerable improvement.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们五年后再进行这次对话，你认为哪种大麦性状会对酿造业产生最大的实际影响？

If we have this conversation again five years from now, which barley trait do you think will have had the biggest real world impact on brewing?

我真的很希望一些抗气候性状能开始对产量以及我们谷物的韧性产生影响。

I really hope that some of the climate traits will start to have some impact on yield, but also the robustness of our grains.

因为我认为，作为酿造行业，以及酿酒师们现在正在做大量工作，我们的酿造品质已经非常出色。

Because I think the qualities we are really starting to as a brewing industry and also the masters are doing a lot, you know, that we have fantastic brewing quality.

但我认为，未来最大的挑战之一将是气候变化的影响，尤其是收获前发芽问题。

But I think what is going to be one of the biggest challenges is something like how will climate impact and of course the whole pre harvest sprouting.

这是一种在某些年份可能出现的现象，可能会在某些地区造成相当严重的破坏性影响。

It's a phenomenon that can occur in certain years and that can have quite, I would say, a damaging effect in certain areas.

如果我们能培育出一些内置这些性状的品种，作为对农民乃至整个行业的保障，我认为我们能从中获得巨大收益。

So if we can start to have some of those traits that's built in as a kind of an in built insurance for farmers, but also for the whole industry, I think we can gain a lot there.

此外，关于作物的抗旱和耐热性也有很多研究，我们希望，如果淀粉组成以及谷物的整体韧性和产量能显著提升，不受干旱或高温的严重影响，酿造品质也会随之改善。

And then also there's a lot on drought and heat resistance or tolerance in crops where we hopefully also, again, will have a better brewing quality if the starch composition and the general robustness and yield of our grains are much, much more robust than if it's hardly affected by drought or heat.

我相信会有大量工作在这方面的展开，目前许多育种专家都在致力于此，但这确实是一个非常难攻克的领域，因为今年雨水多，明年可能就是干旱。

So I'm sure there's going to be a lot, and many, many breeders are working on this now, But it's just a very hard area to tackle because one year it's a lot of rain, next year it might be drought.

更关键的是这些极端天气条件。

It's more these extreme weather conditions.

然后实际上很难针对某个具体方面开展工作，因为你需要的是作物的整体抗性。

And then it's very hard actually to work on something specific because it's more a general robustness you will need in your crops.

我知道，关于冬大麦，我谈过很多次，比如它延长的生长期，以及将用水需求分散到更长的时间段等好处。

You know, I've had a lot of conversations about winter barley and sort of some of the benefits of that extended growing season and you know, spreading the water demand out over a longer period of time and things like that.

但在这里，冬大麦最大的问题之一往往是它的耐寒性。

But here, you know, one of the biggest problems with winter barley is it's oftentimes is the is the winter hardiness.

如果你能改善这一点，让冬大麦在更多地区也能良好生长，这可能会为急需的供应链带来一些多样性。

And, you know, you and so, like, that would be an interesting angle of attack if you could improve that and and and make winter barley, you know, more ex work in more places that might add some diversification to the supply chain that is badly needed.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

所以，不，我认为还有很多不同的视角。

So, no, that's I think there are plenty of perspectives.

而且我认为，如今我们已经掌握了主要作物的基因组。

And I think also today we are we are in a situation, we know the genomes of the key crops.

我们现在也知道如何叠加性状。

We also know how now to stack traits.

我们知道如何分离性状。

We know how to isolate traits.

我们知道如何将它们叠加，并利用分子标记和双单倍体技术，快速高效地培育出高产品种。

We know how to stack them and then build them into high yielding varieties in a fast and efficient way with molecular markers and speed breeding with the double haploid.

所以，有各种加快进程的方法。

So fast ways on how to speed it up.

因此，我认为遗传工具箱确实已经具备了。

So I think the genetic toolbox is certainly there.

此外，再结合一些新的农业实践，比如再生农业，在农场层面努力保持土壤肥力，从而提升表土层的水分和生物多样性。

And then also then combined with maybe with some new agricultural practises like regenerative agriculture, where you also on a farm level, you know, try to maintain some of the soil fertility, and thereby also more moisture and biodiversity in your top soil layers.

所以至少在欧洲，目前这是一个非常重要的议题：我们如何保护我们的资源。

So at least in Europe, that's quite a big topic at the moment, how we protect our source.

当然，在这里，你也需要让品种适应这些新的农业系统。

And of course here you also need to adapt your varieties to some of these new agricultural systems.