Math Academy - #4, Part 1 – The Unreasonable Effectiveness of the Knowledge Graph 封面

#4, Part 1 – The Unreasonable Effectiveness of the Knowledge Graph

#4, Part 1 – The Unreasonable Effectiveness of the Knowledge Graph

本集简介

What we covered: – Why “problem solving” is often just a vague label people use when they haven’t explicitly enumerated the underlying skills, and how those skills can in fact be exhaustively mapped in a knowledge graph. – How to approach research problems: Alex's PhD journey, top-down familiarity vs bottom-up mastery. – If you have natural talent, use it, but not as a crutch, otherwise you'll stunt your long-term development. Don't turn your blessing into a curse. – The story behind building our SAT prep curriculum: realizing that the standard school curriculum leaves a massive “missing middle” unaddressed; identifying 115+ missing topics to bridge the gap between textbook math and the hardest SAT questions. – Watching the manifold hypothesis play out in test prep: the SAT may appear to allow an astronomical space of possible problem types, but in reality the actual problems live on a compact, highly structured manifold that can be fully enumerated and scaffolded in a knowledge graph. Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro: "problem solving" is what you call it when you don't really know what it is (i.e. you haven't explicitly enumerated the skills) 04:11 - How to approach research problems: Alex's PhD journey, top-down familiarity vs bottom-up mastery 20:28 - If you have natural talent, don't use it as a crutch. Don't turn your blessing into a curse. 29:06 - SAT prep, iteration 1: Realizing that the standard school curriculum leaves a massive “missing middle” unaddressed 33:45 - SAT prep, iteration 2: Covering the "missing middle" problems 53:38 - SAT prep, iteration 3: Building the "missing middle" knowledge graph 1:08:11 - Watching the manifold hypothesis play out in SAT prep 1:16:42 - The unreasonable effectiveness of the knowledge graph Follow on X: Math Academy - https://x.com/_MathAcademy_ Justin Skycak - https://x.com/justinskycak Jason Roberts - https://x.com/exojason Alexander Smith - https://x.com/ninja_maths

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Speaker 0

好的。

All right.

Speaker 0

那今天节目里我们安排了什么内容?

So what do we got on deck for the day, for the show?

Speaker 0

对。

Yeah.

Speaker 1

我想了想,我们之前一直讨论的一个话题,就是知识图谱在SAT课程中的惊人效果。

So I figured I mean, one thing that we've been talking about for a while is the unreasonable effectiveness of the knowledge graph, especially in the SAT course.

Speaker 1

没错。

Right.

Speaker 1

就是解决问题这个概念。

This idea of problem solving.

Speaker 1

解决问题这东西很模糊,大家都说SAT考试考这个。

Problem solving is like this nebulous thing that everyone says like, oh, it's on the SAT.

Speaker 1

说要让孩子学会批判性思考,学会自己解决问题。

Like, you got to get the kids think critically, to problem solve their way.

Speaker 1

但当你真正深入去看时,可能会觉得,好吧,我们就直接教孩子解决问题的技能吧,可这技能到底该怎么教呢?

And once you actually drill down deep into that mean, it's easy to think like, Okay, we're just going to teach the skill of problem solving, or how do we teach that?

Speaker 1

可一旦你开始认真追问:这到底意味着什么?

But once you start drilling down into just a high level of accountability of like, Okay, what does this mean?

Speaker 1

孩子们具体得做些什么?

What do the kids have to do?

Speaker 1

你就会发现,其实所有这些都可以拆解成一些明确的技能。

You realize that, well, it all comes down to these skills that you can enumerate explicitly.

Speaker 1

这些都是清晰可定义的技能。

They're explicit skills.

Speaker 1

更进一步,你还能把这些技能组织成一张知识图谱。

And what's more, you can arrange them in a knowledge graph.

Speaker 1

这本质上就是一门课程。

It's a course.

Speaker 1

它是一套彼此紧密关联、层次分明的知识体系,和其他任何学科都一样。

It's a body of well connected knowledge, hierarchical, just like anything else.

Speaker 1

所以当人们谈到解决问题,说孩子得学会解决问题的时候。

And so when people look at problem solving and refer to like, Oh, the kid needs to learn problem solving.

Speaker 1

他们得学会批判性思考。

They need to learn to think critically.

Speaker 1

其实背后有一整套知识体系,只是大家还没意识到,但这些完全可以被一一列出来。

There's this whole body of knowledge that they just haven't gotten, but it can be enumerated exhaustively.

Speaker 1

而且,确实,我的意思是,

And, yeah, I mean I

Speaker 0

我觉得我们应该讲讲,我们是怎么走过这段路的,

think we should tell, I think we should go through what our, sort of, journey

Speaker 1

没错。

Yeah.

Speaker 0

这挺有意思的。

Because it's funny.

Speaker 0

说真的,解决问题一直都被当成一种高阶能力,或者类似的东西。

I mean, problem solving has always been this just this it's like this meta skill or something.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

就是说,孩子得提高解决问题的能力。

It's like, you know, kids gotta get better at problem solving.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

我们常提到波亚的解题方法,比如画图、列清单、做表格,或者先解个简单的版本,再试错,当然还有别的,我以前教过孩子这些,大概在四到六年级,准备数学竞赛的时候。

And we think of Poya's problem solving techniques of draw a diagram, make a list, make a table, you know, solve a simpler problem, trial and error, you know, I mean, well, there's a few more, but, you know, and I tried teaching this to kids when we were doing, you know, like, they're, like, fifth grade, that kind of stuff, fourth, fifth, sixth grade for for for math competitions.

Speaker 0

试错法其实挺管用的。

And it's I mean, trial and error works pretty well.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

因为我做事基本就是瞎试,碰碰运气嘛。

Because everything I do just try some stuff, you know?

Speaker 0

对。

Mhmm.

Speaker 0

有时候列个清单,把信息整理一下。

Sometimes making lists, organizing information.

Speaker 0

我的意思是,这些方法确实有帮助,但真要解决实际问题,效果是有限的。

I mean, things can be helpful, but there's a, it's like a, like a limited level of effectiveness, know, to solving actual problems.

Speaker 0

这就像是你根本看不到任何希望,完全不知道该怎么下手。

It's sort of like when you have no hope, there's no hope of solving the problem.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

我真的完全没头绪。

Like, I have no idea.

Speaker 0

你就先试着摸清这个问题的轮廓再说。

Like, you sort of like, let me just try and figure out the contours of this problem.

Speaker 0

画图、做表格这些,其实都是帮你理清思路的办法。

These drawing diagrams and making tables and things are are ways of maybe getting your head around it.

Speaker 0

但要是真遇到数学考试、标准化测试或者竞赛题这种具体问题,这些方法很多时候根本派不上用场。

But when you're actually talking about sort of solving concrete problems in the format of, like, a math test or standardized test or competition test, I don't know if that's not really gonna work for you most of the time.

Speaker 0

我觉得你真正需要做的,是熟悉你正在应对的这类问题。

I think you really what you have to do is you have to be familiar with these these class of problems that you're trying to solve.

Speaker 0

因为通常你没那么多时间,就算有时间,每种问题背后的背景信息和解法技巧也太多太具体了。

Because if you you don't have the time, typically, and even if you had the time, there's just so much contextual information about that specific kind of problem and what type of methods will unlock it.

Speaker 0

你懂的。

You know?

Speaker 0

你不可能在一二分钟,甚至五分钟内临时想出这些方法。

And you're not gonna invent them on the spot in a minute or two minutes or five minutes, typically.

Speaker 1

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 1

你没时间像做研究或者写作业那样慢慢琢磨。

You don't have the time to approach it like a like a research problem or even like a take home assignment.

Speaker 1

要是几分钟内想不出解法,那就完了。

If you can't figure it out in a couple minutes, you're toast.

Speaker 1

就算是普特南竞赛这类考试,虽然每题时间长一点,但我记不清具体多久了,但肯定不会超过一小时。

I mean, even on the Putnam or something, it extends from a couple minutes to I forget exactly, but you definitely don't have more than an hour per problem.

Speaker 1

如果你花好几个小时才搞定这个问题,那你就彻底完了。

It's like if you're if you're taking hours to figure this out, like, you're just you're toast.

Speaker 0

没错。

Right.

Speaker 0

当然,数学家们有时候会花几个月甚至几年去研究一个问题。

I mean, obviously mathematicians, I mean, they spend months or years on problems.

Speaker 0

你是专业的数学研究者,这一点我很清楚。

I mean, you know, I mean, you're a resident mathematician.

Speaker 0

在我看来,当你做研究的时候,其实是在处理一类相关的问题。

I mean, so it seems to me that like, you mean, it's it's eventually basically when your research is a there's a sort of a family of problems.

Speaker 0

你面对的是一个更大的难题。

There's a much bigger problem.

Speaker 0

你得把它拆解成小块,一步步解决中间的子问题,最终达成一个更大的目标。

You're trying to breaking it down and and and I guess solving sub problems on the way to some bigger result.

Speaker 0

所以没有哪个问题会单独花上好几年,但这些小问题确实可能要花几天、几周,甚至几个月——随着你不断积累方法、技巧和洞察力。

So no one problem takes years, but, you know, these individual problems can take days or weeks or months, I guess, as you accumulate tools and techniques and insight.

Speaker 0

我的意思是,在我们深入讨论怎么处理这个问题之前,亚历克斯,我想听听你作为数学家的看法。

I mean, let's talk a little bit about how the I mean, just just before we get into how we approach it or how we're thinking about it now, Alex, I'd to hear your thoughts from a mathematician.

Speaker 0

数学家是怎么解决研究问题的呢?

How do mathematicians solve research problems?

Speaker 0

我们到底在做什么?

I mean, what what are we what are we doing?

Speaker 0

你平时都是怎么做的?

What are you doing?

Speaker 2

我可以结合自己的经历说说,毕竟我做过研究项目,也拿过博士学位。

Well, I can certainly talk about from my own personal experience as someone that's done, you know, a a research project, a a PhD.

Speaker 2

我刚进来的时候觉得自己基础还不错,本科是优等生,硕士读的是流体力学。

And so I I came in thinking I had pretty good fundamentals, know, first class honors degree, I had a master's degree in fluid dynamics.

Speaker 2

我后来进了流体力学方向的博士项目,做研究。

I went into a PhD program, which was a research project in fluid dynamics.

Speaker 2

所以我觉得自己应该没问题。

So I think I'm good.

Speaker 2

我本来以为可以直接上手,先找一两篇关键论文,看看怎么往前推进。

I can pretty much just go straight in, start sort of understand, you know, there's a particular cup, one or two particular papers that we wanted to kind of extend, if you like.

Speaker 2

这算是我最初的目标。

That was kind of our first, my first goal.

Speaker 2

我当时觉得,没问题,我能搞定。

And I thought, yeah, I'm I'm good to go.

Speaker 2

但实际做起来,真是特别艰难。

But it was a it was a real struggle.

Speaker 2

结果发现,尽管我有那么多学位,还是得花上至少六个月,真正深入地去搞清楚:这篇论文背后的理论基础到底是什么?

It turned out despite having, you know, all those degrees, etcetera, I I I needed to spend a lot of time, at least six months, like really, really kind of familiarizing yourself with what are the foundations that have led to this particular research paper?

Speaker 2

你真的把这些基础都吃透了吗?

And do you know them really, really well?

Speaker 2

当然,有些外围的东西,其实不一定非得全懂。

You know, I mean, there's a lot of stuff on the periphery that okay, perhaps you don't necessarily need to know.

Speaker 2

这本身也是一种能力——知道什么重要,什么不重要,能分辨出哪些是关键。

I mean, that's actually part of a skill, like, you know, what's relevant and what isn't, like discerning what's relevant and what isn't.

Speaker 2

但我犯了个错,没等把研究领域的基础知识打牢,就急着一头扎进去想自己摸索出来,明明觉得自己已经具备足够的基本功了。

But I made the mistake of kind of leaping in and just trying to kinda like figure stuff out when I didn't really have a strong enough knowledge of my particular research area, even though thought I had enough fundamentals to do it.

Speaker 2

所以关键还是得掌握你所选领域里的那些工具和方法。

So yeah, so it really is about learning the tools and techniques of your chosen field.

Speaker 2

不同领域之间的差别可大了。

It's gonna vary a lot between the different fields.

Speaker 2

真正读懂论文,跟其他数学家交流,做实验,重新推导你将来会用到的每一个结论。

Really understanding the paper, talking to other mathematicians, running experiments, re deriving most results you're gonna end up using.

Speaker 2

等你真正从研究层面彻底搞懂了这些基础,才算准备好去 tackling 新的问题了。

And then once you've got to a point where you really, really kind of understand the fundamentals on research level, that's when you're ready to actually start tackling new problems.

Speaker 0

这挺有意思的。

So that was interesting.

Speaker 0

你提到要读透、重新推导那些你打算用的结论。

You said to read, derive the results that you're going to use.

Speaker 0

也就是说,你有一整套工具。

So you have a series of tools.

Speaker 0

所以这些结果本质上就是你的工具,对吧?

So the results are essentially your tools, right?

Speaker 2

没错。

Yes.

Speaker 0

要想真正熟练运用这些工具,就必须亲自推导一遍,这在研究层面上其实就是一种练习,能让你彻底理解工具的核心、适用范围、局限和方法,对吧?

And in order to be really good with these tools, really skilled with these tools, you have to go through the derivation process, which is based at the research level is sort of a way of practicing and really understanding the essence of that tool, the extent, the limitations, the constraints and the techniques, Right?

Speaker 0

因为得出这些结果所用的方法,以后你很可能也会用到。

Because the techniques that went into finding that result are techniques that you're probably gonna pull in later.

Speaker 2

没错。

Right?

Speaker 2

我是说,确实如此。

I mean, I'm just Yeah.

Speaker 2

当然了。

I mean, absolutely.

Speaker 2

我的意思是,研究论文本身并不是为了教学而写的。

I mean, when when I mean, you know, research papers aren't really designed really with pedagogy in mind.

Speaker 2

你明白吧?

You know?

Speaker 2

就是,你知道的,情况就是这样。

It's just like you know, it's like this.

Speaker 2

在我这种情况下,针对这个波数,得出了这样一个结果,你懂的?

Here's here's a result for this kind of wave number in my in my situation, you know?

Speaker 2

我记得当时坐下来和导师一起琢磨,这东西到底是从哪儿来的?

And it's like and I remember just sitting down with my supervisor and we're like, where where does that come from kinda thing?

Speaker 2

你真的得深挖下去,回头把每个结果的来龙去脉彻底搞清楚。

So you really have to dig very hard to go back and make sure you really understand where that result's coming.

Speaker 2

没人会主动告诉你这些。

No one's explaining it to you.

Speaker 2

这跟数学课上教的可不一样,研究不是这么回事。

This is not like Math Academy for research.

Speaker 2

根本就不存在这种系统性的教学。

It just doesn't really exist.

Speaker 2

所以你真的得下功夫,彻底搞清楚这个结果的来源、它的局限性,以及在什么情况下能用、什么情况下不能用。

So you've really gotta sort of dig hard and make sure like you really understand where that result was coming from, what its limitations are, when it can be applied, when it cannot be applied.

Speaker 2

有趣的是,这其实属于那种情况。

So interestingly enough actually, it's one of those things.

Speaker 0

我觉得你得

I think you had to

Speaker 2

有足够的成熟度,才能有耐心去回溯,把那些繁琐的基础工作都做完,然后再真正开始去

be quite mature as a person to really be able to kind of have the discipline to go back and do all that kind of intermediate grunt work before you actually kind of set out to

Speaker 1

做你自己的研究。这听起来就像软件领域里,只是从库里导入一个解决方案,就说‘我搞机器学习’一样。

do your own You know what this sounds like, this sounds a lot like in software, the difference between just importing a solution from the library and saying that like, Oh, I do machine learning.

Speaker 1

我导入了个模型,跑了一下。

I imported this model and I ran it.

Speaker 1

现在我就成了机器学习研究员或工程师。

Now I'm a machine learning researcher engineer.

Speaker 1

不对,完全不是这么回事。

No, no, no.

Speaker 1

你不能光用现成的工具。

You to actually You can't just use the off the shelf.

Speaker 1

你不能光拿个定理来用,就说自己无所不能了。

You can't just use the theorem and wield the theorem and say, like, now I am all powerful.

Speaker 1

你得从零开始写代码,重新推导结果,从底层一点点搞清楚,这东西到底是怎么运作的。

You actually have to go, like, write code from scratch, re derive the result, whatever, from the bottom up to really understand, like, the mechanics of what is it.

Speaker 1

光拿现成的用,是远远不够的。

It's like it's it's not enough to just take it off the shelf and use it.

Speaker 1

你得知道这东西是怎么做出来的。

You need to know what went into building this thing.

Speaker 1

这么说对吗?

Is that accurate?

Speaker 1

对。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

这个比喻挺贴切的。

That I I I that's that's that's a good analogy.

Speaker 2

从上往下这个角度来理解确实可以,不过总的来说,我们在圈子里经常讨论这个问题,类似的争论其实挺常见的。

I mean, I mean, could sort of approach it from that kind of top down point of view, I suppose, but, you know, in broad strokes, I mean, we often talk about this when we're discussing, you know, what's, know, it's a debate that comes up quite a lot in that kind of community, know?

Speaker 2

学这些机器学习算法,到底该怎么才能真正学会动手做东西呢?

What's the best way to learn these kind of machine learning algorithms and be able to kind of build stuff?

Speaker 2

到底是该从上往下学,还是从下往上打基础?

It's like, is it top down or bottom up?

Speaker 2

你说得对,贾斯汀,从宏观层面来看,上往下确实是个不错的思路。

You know, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head, Justin, when you say that, you know, top down kind of in broad strokes.

Speaker 2

没错,没问题。

Yeah, fine.

Speaker 2

先下载几个库,把东西跑起来,先对你要解决的问题有个大致的把握。

You know, download a few libraries, get some stuff working so you can kinda get your arms around the actual things you're trying to solve.

Speaker 2

但如果你真想彻底搞懂这些原理,遇到突发问题时,别像其他人那样干瞪眼,完全不知道该怎么办。

But if you really, really wanna know this stuff fund that fundamentally so that when you hit an unexpected problem, that you're not you're not part of the crew that's sitting around scratching their heads, being, I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2

其实你已经打下了扎实的基础,能够真正开创新局面,解决别人解决不了的问题。

I actually you you've actually got the fundamentals in place to actually, you know, break new ground, solve problems that no one else can solve.

Speaker 2

没错,完全正确。

So yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1

我记得你以前发过一篇帖子,说你刚开始做研究项目的时候,是不是提到过,你一开始想从上往下入手,后来才发现,其实得从底层一点一点把知识建起来。

You know, I remember one post that you made a while back about how, when you were starting out on your research project, didn't you write something about how you started out, like trying to approach it like top down and later on, you you you realize that you you actually had to build all this knowledge bottom up.

Speaker 1

那时候花了不少时间在上往下这种方式上,效率可能没那么高,你后来才意识到,得回头去翻论文的参考文献,再翻那些文献的参考文献,一点一点把知识体系搭起来,大概是这样吧?

And there was, a lot of a lot of time that maybe wasn't used as efficiently as you could have used it just spent top down, and and you realize you needed to, like, go back to the references of the paper, go back to their references or something and just like build up your knowledge, something like that?

Speaker 2

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

我的导师都非常出色。

I mean, my supervisors were brilliant.

Speaker 2

但我觉得,像所有导师一样,他们也都希望看到你尽快出成果。

But I think like all supervisors, they're quite keen to sort of like see progress quite quickly.

Speaker 1

我

And I

Speaker 2

如果你是以正确的方式去推进博士项目或者任何研究项目,那速度通常不会太快。

think that if you're approaching a PhD project or any kind of research project as you're probably supposed to, you know, it isn't necessarily that quick.

Speaker 2

这就像短期受苦,换来长期回报,你知道的。

It's kind of like short term pain for long term gain, you know.

Speaker 2

在尝试任何新东西之前,你得先把基础打牢。

You gotta sort of go through the fundamentals before you can attempt anything new.

Speaker 2

所以我从第一天起就开始写代码了。

Yeah, so I started out, you know, basically writing code from day one, basically.

Speaker 2

从第一天起就写代码来解决这个特征值问题,然后把结果输入模型,从而得出各种声学模态。

Writing code from day one to solve this eigenvalue problem, which I could then feed into a model, which kinda gave me all these kind of acoustic modes.

Speaker 2

这挺酷的。

It was cool.

Speaker 2

我感觉自己大致抓住了问题的轮廓,就像我们之前聊的那样,但当我真想开辟全新方向时,却总觉得哪里缺了点什么。

I kinda felt like I was getting It was kind of broad strokes getting my arm around the problem like we spoke to, but I did find myself hitting a little bit When I was really trying to break new ground, like really new grounds, I kind of felt that something's missing here.

Speaker 2

我必须回头去看看,搞清楚我们今天所处的位置,到底是怎么一步步走过来的。

I really need to go back and kind of like, almost like see, understand the historical journey of where we're at now, you know?

Speaker 2

自上而下的方法确实走得挺远,也出了一些成果,不错,能写进论文里,挺好。

Because the top down approach, it got so far, got some results, great, can put that in the paper, great.

Speaker 2

但真要开拓全新领域时,我一直觉得撞上了墙,直到我回头重新做了本该在头六个月就做的事——认真研读那些关键论文,重新推导所有结论,彻底搞明白每一个细节。

But in terms of breaking really new grounds, I thought I was hitting a wall until I really went back and did what I probably should have done in the first six months, which was, you know, study the really important papers and re derive all the results and really have a very, very clear understanding.

Speaker 2

这才明白我们为什么走到今天这一步,真正理解了这个领域当初面临的问题。

Okay, this is why we're here at this moment and really understand the problems that the field was facing.

Speaker 0

说起来,这其实挺有意思的。

Well, you know, it's it's kinda interesting.

Speaker 0

自上而下这条路的一个陷阱在于,它容易让你产生一种专业感,一种能力的错觉,让你觉得对问题很熟悉,能说得头头是道。

One trap that the that or I guess one sort of temptation of the top down is is it gives you enough almost like a perception of expertise, a perception of of of skill, a familiarity problem that you can talk a good game.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

我在技术圈里也经常被这种表象骗到。

And, you know, I I I've noticed that in technology that I get fooled.

Speaker 0

好几次我都上当了,因为我不想花那么多时间去深挖、去验证他们到底行不行。

I've been fooled a number of times by people because, like, I want to believe that they're good because I don't want to want to spend all this time digging in and testing them.

Speaker 0

我当时就想,哦,原来你懂这个啊,满口都是流行术语,谈的都是正确的开发方法、库和框架,说话一副经验丰富、身经百战的样子,讲怎么构建复杂系统、写出高质量软件,其实就是嘴上功夫了得。

I was like, oh, yeah, so you know this and they they use all the right buzzwords and they talk about the right methodology and the right libraries and the right frameworks and that they talk knowingly and as if they have battle scars or whatever about, you know, how you develop complex systems and quality software and and it's it's really like talking good good game.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

因为你确实能读到一些业内人士写的思想类文章。

Because you can, you you know, you read you read some thought pieces by people in the area.

Speaker 0

没错。

Right.

Speaker 0

于是你就慢慢掌握了这个领域的语感,谁是谁、什么重要、什么过时、什么热门,心里都有数了。

So you get the sort of you get the sort of vibe or the sort of the language of the domain, who's who and what's what and what's cool and what's not.

Speaker 0

大家现在都在关注什么?

What are people excited about?

Speaker 0

哪些成果才是关键?

What are the important results?

Speaker 0

然后你就能跟一个专家聊上二十到三十分钟。

And and then you're like, you could talk to somebody who's an expert for twenty, thirty minutes.

Speaker 0

我觉得这人真有两下子。

I'm like, oh, this this guy knows his stuff.

Speaker 0

对啊。

Yeah.

Speaker 0

没错。

Yeah.

Speaker 0

咱们该去跟他聊聊。

We should talk to him.

Speaker 0

结果一聊才发现,他懂的也就皮毛而已。

It turns out it was, you know, an inch deep.

Speaker 0

但确实能让你快速看到效果,对吧?

And but but it gives you a quick payoff, right?

Speaker 0

能让你立马获得成就感。

Gives you the dopamine hit.

Speaker 0

能让你在别人面前显得很厉害,说不定还能帮你拿到工作、项目资助,或者你所在环境里的其他机会。

It impresses people around you, might get you a job, might get you into might get you a grant maybe or a research support or whatever, whatever environment you're in.

Speaker 0

但话说回来,油箱空了,不就停下了吗?

But then again, run out of you run out of gas, right?

Speaker 0

你就是突然没法再往前走了。

You just you start stop being able to make progress.

Speaker 0

就像你说的,打基础这事儿特别枯燥,容易让人觉得啥也没进展。

And, you know, as you said, like the the building stuff for the fundamentals can be an arduous thing and it could be it could give people the sense that you're making no progress.

Speaker 0

很多博士导师都见过,有些学生在项目里原地打转,一点进步都没有,这可不是好兆头。真正能毕业、把论文写完的人,往往能持续感受到进展,而不是那种一直原地踏步的——导师判断的标准,其实就是看学生自己有没有感觉到进步。

And I guess a lot of these these PhD advisers are like, man, I've seen I've had people in PhD programs who are just spinning their wheels and not making progress and that's not a good sign and I the people who end up completing their PhD and getting their dissertation done I see some percept there's some perception of progress pretty consistently as opposed to someone who's just kind of so they're always like because they're the heuristic is like, is their perception of progress, right?

Speaker 0

但这事儿真不好说。

And it's hard to tell.

Speaker 0

这人呢,后院里做俯卧撑、硬拉,拼了命地练,可我压根没见他这样。

Well, this guy's he's out back doing push ups and dead lifts and he's working really hard with like, I don't know.

Speaker 0

我啥也没看见。

I don't see any of that.

Speaker 0

我就觉得他好像啥都不懂似的。

I'm just see like any, they really doesn't seem to know anything, right?

Speaker 0

这其实挺有意思的。

So it's sort of interesting.

Speaker 0

很容易被吸引进去,因为你能很快看到一些成果,对吧?

It's easy to get pulled in because you get some quick wins, right?

Speaker 0

大家都说:哇,太厉害了。

And everybody's a wow, that's amazing.

Speaker 0

是吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

但真正花力气打基础、练技能、建工具,过程却常常让人觉得没回报。

But the hard hard work of building up those skills or those techniques or those tools or those foundations, it's so it can feel unrewarding.

Speaker 0

这种感觉特别打击人,因为身边的人根本看不出你有进步,他们根本没注意到任何变化,说实话。

It can feel demoralizing because the people around you who are sort of giving you acknowledging your progress are not acknowledging anything because like, I don't know.

Speaker 0

你有进步吗?

Are you getting better?

Speaker 0

我明白你为什么会陷在这种状态里了。

Are you getting so I can see how you get sucked at that.

Speaker 0

不过说真的,我其实一直想问你一件事,挺有意思的,我们居然从来没怎么聊过你的博士生涯。

But, you know, it's so I I would like to one thing I'd like to ask you about, you know, it's kinda funny because we've never really talked too much about your PhD.

Speaker 0

你偶尔提过一两句,我也知道一些片段。

You know, I mean, you've made some references to it here and there.

Speaker 0

有些故事。

There's some stories.

Speaker 0

但你刚进博士的时候,遇到第一个大难题,完全不知道怎么下手,那时候是什么感觉?

But, you know, when when you were, like, getting in your when you got stuck, like, there a story where you first got your first big problem and you're just like, I have no idea what to do.

Speaker 0

我真能搞定这个吗?

Am I am I even going to be able to do this?

Speaker 0

你那时候有没有什么特别的经历,能跟我们说说?

I mean, what was your do you have anything that you can tell us about?

Speaker 2

当然有。

Oh, yes.

Speaker 2

我记得当时我好不容易搞出来的一个重要成果,叫模态散射这个现象。

I I I remember there was so the the the the the the big the big result I managed to kind of come up with was this phenomenon called modal scattering.

Speaker 2

这个现象必须用有限元方法来展示,那是一种更偏向计算的方法。

It shown had to occur using something called the finite element methods, which is kind of like more computational.

Speaker 2

我专长的是更偏向理论分析的方法,叫渐近方法。

Methods that I kind of specialize in were more analytic, called asymptotic methods.

Speaker 2

所以这个现象早就被人们观察到了。

And so this phenomenon was known to occur.

Speaker 2

我当时想的是,能不能用这些渐近方法来证明这个现象确实会发生?

And the question I wanted to ask was, you know, can this phenomenon be shown to take place using these asymptotic methods?

Speaker 2

我记得当时领域里有一位特别高产的研究者,大家都非常敬重他。

And I remember there was one extremely prolific researcher in the field, and he was respected by everybody.

Speaker 2

我见过他本人,人特别好,而且在这一领域已经取得了不少突破。

And I met him, he was a really great guy, and you know, he'd made a lot of progress in the field.

Speaker 2

但我依赖的某一个结论,后来发现其实并不完全准确——要么是结论本身没错,但适用条件和他设想的不一样,要么是只在某种特殊情况下成立。

But there was one particular result which I relied on, which turned out to be not quite correct, or it was correct, but not quite in the context he envisaged or there was a special case.

Speaker 2

说真的,那都是很久以前的事了。

Mean, it's been a it's been a long time since I did it.

Speaker 2

所以,我记不太清了。

So, can't quite remember.

Speaker 2

我当时就像在追影子一样,直到有一天,我突然经历了一次特别投入的推导,结果发现根本算不出 omega 等于负二。

So, I was kind of chasing shadows a little bit and then one day, I just had like one of these kind of like extremely intense sessions where I just kind of like went through the math and like, I'm not getting omega equals negative two.

Speaker 2

我算出来的是 omega 等于负二分之一。

I'm getting omega equals negative a half.

Speaker 2

于是我去找了我的导师,跟他说,我觉得这个结论可能有问题。

And I kinda like went to my supervisor and said, I think this result here isn't right.

Speaker 2

是我哪里出错了,还是这结论真的不对?

Am I going crazy or is that right?

Speaker 2

他们当时有点……

And they sort of

Speaker 0

我是不是疯了?

Am I taking crazy pills?

Speaker 2

没错。

Yes.

Speaker 2

他们说,其实他们也不知道。

And they said, I actually don't.

Speaker 2

看起来你是对的。

It looks like you're right.

Speaker 2

那好吧。

So, okay.

Speaker 2

这倒不错。

Well, that was good.

Speaker 2

这真是

That was

Speaker 0

你当时一定挺震惊的吧?

You must have been kind of impressed by that, right?

Speaker 0

你的博士论文啊。

Your PhD thesis.

Speaker 0

这可是个了不起的发现,对吧?

Like, like, that's a good find, right?

Speaker 0

这就像是在大型库里面发现了一个bug。

That's like finding a bug in a major library.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 2

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

我都记不清他们当时是什么反应了。

I can't remember how they how they reacted.

Speaker 2

我觉得其实就是说,对,没错。

I think it was just more like, yeah.

Speaker 2

他说得对。

He's right.

Speaker 2

我也这么觉得。

I think so.

Speaker 2

所以当时的情况就像尤里的健身房那件事一样,做得真不错。

So it was kind of like, you know, like the Yuri's Gym thing, like, well done.

Speaker 2

再去弄一个吧。

It's like Get another.

Speaker 2

再去弄一个。

Get another.

Speaker 2

你懂的。

You know?

Speaker 1

这真是典型的数学家作风。

That's such a mathematician's mean,

Speaker 0

就直接给你一个

just give you like a

Speaker 2

我记得那时候确实有帮助,但印象更深的是,那些方程多得吓人,光是描述一个函数就得占满好几页纸。

So I remember that helped, but I remember there was just lots of Because the equations that we got, I mean, I just remember they sort of taking up like pages and pages just for like, just to give like, just to describe one function.

Speaker 2

那过程真的特别枯燥艰难,坚持下来太不容易了。

And it was just, I remember it was extremely arduous and difficult and it was tough to push through it.

Speaker 2

不过,我确实一度怀疑过自己的能力。

But yeah, definitely question my own ability.

Speaker 2

我是不是根本没这个能力做这个?

Like, am I capable of doing this?

Speaker 2

会不会有什么我根本不知道的因素,一直在拖后腿?

Is there some unknown unknown here that is just preventing this from kind of coming out in the wash?

Speaker 0

你有没有怀疑过自己的本事,自己的天赋?

Did you ever doubt your skill, your own individual talent?

Speaker 0

那是不是

Was that

Speaker 2

有一点吧。

a I mean, a little bit.

Speaker 2

我觉得是的。

I think so.

Speaker 2

我的意思是,在UCO这种地方,身边全是特别出色、成就非凡的人。

I mean, I think when you're you're a place like UCO, you're you're surrounded by, like, brilliant people who've done amazing things.

Speaker 2

说到冒名顶替综合征,我想每个人都会在某个时候有这种感觉。

And it's like, you know, I mean, with impostor syndrome, I think everybody gets that at some point.

Speaker 2

我在那里的时候,确实有这种感觉。

I think I definitely felt that in the time I was there.

Speaker 2

说实话,我当时的导师都很优秀,而且那种自我怀疑的情绪也没那么严重。

I mean, I think the fact that, yeah, I had really good supervisors and the fact that, yeah, I mean, the apostrophe syndrome didn't set in quite so much.

Speaker 0

你挺有自信的。

Well, you're pretty confident.

Speaker 0

你刚来的时候听起来特别自信,甚至有点自负。

You sounds like you're pretty confident and cocky coming in.

Speaker 0

你那时候就觉得,我可是有真本事的。

Like, you you you were like, I I got the I got the goods.

Speaker 2

我很快就意识到自己没那么厉害了。

I was humbled pretty quickly, I think.

Speaker 2

怎么突然处处碰壁了?

Why am I start hitting brick walls?

Speaker 0

说来也挺有意思的。

Well, you know, it's funny.

Speaker 0

我一直在看一些YouTube视频,里面NBA球员在谈论那些NBA球星。

I was watching these, YouTube videos of these NBA players talking about these NBA stars.

Speaker 0

就是那种刚进联盟的时刻,他们原本是热门的大学球员,首轮秀,顶级新秀,特别张扬,结果一进来,就被真正的顶尖球员狠狠教训了一顿。

They're welcome to the league moment where they were this hotshot college player first round draft pick top, you know, just this louded rookie and they came in and then some really top notch, you know, player just put them in their place.

Speaker 0

这孩子啊。

This is the kid.

Speaker 0

你还得多学着点。

You got a lot to learn.

Speaker 0

就是这样的。

And it's just like Yeah.

Speaker 0

我的意思是,这种事情其实谁都经历过。

You know, I mean, if anything happens, that happens to everybody.

Speaker 0

几乎每个人刚进来的时候都是这样。

Every almost everyone comes in.

Speaker 0

很少有人一进联盟当新秀,就能直接碾压老将。

Rarely do they come in and does somebody come in as a rookie and then just start torching the veterans.

Speaker 0

不过有时候,也会出现那种百年一遇的天才,真的能做到这一点,但这种情况实在太少见了。

Now sometimes you have this just like, you know, once in a lifetime type, you know, once in an era type talents that can do that, but that's really rare.

Speaker 0

大多数超级球星都会被狠狠教训好几次。

Most of the superstars get get humbled, you know, a number of times.

Speaker 2

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

我的意思是,天赋这东西,某种程度上,就是有些人天生在某方面特别有天赋,或者说是某种天赋异禀。

I mean I mean, natural talent sort of, you know, in some ways, having, like, so called natural talent or being, you know, having having some, I don't know, what the what the word is that, gift or something in a particular thing.

Speaker 2

这其实既是福也是祸,因为你很容易把它当成理所当然。

I mean, it it it could be somewhat a blessing and a curse in a way because you can take it for granted.

Speaker 2

就像高中数学,对你来说太简单了。

So, you know, sort of a high school math, that's easy.

Speaker 2

这种难度的题目,根本不在话下。

A level's pretty easy.

Speaker 2

甚至到了大学,也一样轻松。

Even undergraduate, yes, it is.

Speaker 2

这还过得去。

That wasn't too bad.

Speaker 2

但到了一定层次,大家都有天赋,只不过有些人还特别努力。

And, but obviously, when you get to a certain level, it's like everybody has natural talent, but some of those people also work extremely hard.

Speaker 2

这就像是在跟你说:兄弟,你现在就处在这个水平上。

It's like that's the level you're at now buddy kind of thing.

Speaker 2

这完全是另一回事了。

So that is a completely different story.

Speaker 2

光有天赋,并不一定能让你走到底。

You know, natural talent is not necessarily gonna kind of help you to go all the way.

Speaker 2

你得像身边那些同样天赋异禀的人一样,拼了命地努力。

You gotta work extremely hard just like the people around you are doing who are also extremely talented.

Speaker 2

所以你就明白了吧。

So you're like, yeah.

Speaker 2

我想,我一直以来都还算挺谦逊的。

I mean, I guess I've always been sort of reasonably humble, I think.

Speaker 2

所以呢,

So it's

Speaker 1

你可别让你的天赋变成拐杖。

like You don't want to let your natural gift or talent turn into a crutch.

Speaker 1

一旦你把它当拐杖,光靠它就不去提升其他方面,那你就马上会碰到一个特别陡的瓶颈,对吧?

The moment you use it as a crutch, like you just rely on it and stop developing other parts of your game, that's the moment when you start hitting like a really sharp asymptote, right?

Speaker 1

这让我想起当初在帕萨迪纳项目里,有些六年级学生特别聪明。

It reminds me of in the original Pasadena program, how you'd get some sixth graders who are incredibly sharp.

Speaker 1

奇怪的是,那些脑子最快、最能心算的孩子,一年后反而最吃力,因为他们死活不肯动笔。

Oddly enough, sometimes it was the sharpest sixth graders who could do the most work in their head who would struggle the most a year later because they were so resistant to writing anything down.

Speaker 1

他们总说:不用,我根本不需要纸笔。

They were like, no, I don't need pencil and paper.

Speaker 1

啊?

Like, what?

Speaker 1

我就全在脑子里算完了。

No, I just do all this in my head.

Speaker 1

还有些人也是这样,但他们都会把东西写下来。

And there were others who were like that, but also wrote things down.

Speaker 1

他们做事特别顺。

Things went smoothly for them.

Speaker 1

进步特别快,很快就走得很远。

They went really far, very quickly.

Speaker 1

那真的很好。

It was great.

Speaker 1

但那些特别固执、依赖超强工作记忆的人,反而把这变成了拐杖。

But the ones who were very stubborn and used their outsized working memory capacity, it it became into a crutch.

Speaker 1

他们只能解决那些能完全装进脑子里、不用纸笔就能处理的问题。

They can only solve problems that they can immediate like, entirely fit in their working memory without usage of of paper and pencil.

Speaker 1

结果很快就吃了大亏。

That came back to bite them really fast.

Speaker 1

你知道,在

And You know, in

Speaker 0

在体育里,你经常能看到那些天生跑得快的运动员。

in in sports, you'd see this a lot of times with guys who would, who are blessed with speed.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

他们有更快的节奏,能轻松甩开对手,不管是篮球、足球还是橄榄球,都一样。

Like, they have a higher gear, and then they could just run around people, whether it was basketball or football or soccer or whatever.

Speaker 0

他们就是比别人快得多,快出一大截。

They could they were just faster, a lot faster.

Speaker 0

所以,这种速度就是他们的利器。

And so they were a weapon.

Speaker 0

这种速度确实是一种优势。

That speed was a weapon.

Speaker 0

就像打篮球时身高有优势,踢足球时体格强壮有优势一样,速度也是这类天赋之一。

Just like height can be, say, basketball or size and football, just having a lot of strength and size or being, you know, it's really call is obviously a huge can be a huge advantage with speed was one of these.

Speaker 0

不管什么运动,都是这样。

It doesn't matter what sport you're in.

Speaker 0

如果你真的很快,像网球,我是说,几乎所有运动,除了可能高尔夫,但即使是高尔夫,挥杆的速度也很重要。

If you're really fast, tennis, I mean, anything pick pick just about other than maybe golf, but even golfing, how fast you can swing a club.

Speaker 0

你能把球打得比其他人远得多。

You can hit it a lot further than other people.

Speaker 0

但这很好,因为你拥有速度,这种与生俱来的优势是可以利用的武器。

But but but which is great because you get the speed and you have this inherent advantage that and it's a weapon that can be leveraged.

Speaker 0

但问题在于,如果你速度很快,你可能会依赖它,而不是去学习真正的技巧。

But the problem is if you have a lot of speed, you can use that as a crutch instead of learning the skills.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

所以其他球员就得去苦练控球技巧,或者说那些技术动作、脚下功夫之类的。

So where there are other guys would be like, well, I gotta learn a lot more ball handling skills or, you know, technical skilled software, this foot skills.

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而我呢?我只要直接跑过去就行了。

And I gotta I gotta I can just run past you.

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就像我从十岁、十一岁起就不需要担心这些。

Like, I don't have to worry about from the time I was like 11 or 10.

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我就直接冲上去。

I just go.

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你猜怎么着?

And well, guess what?

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现在你十五六岁了。

Now you're fifteen sixteen.

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但你还是得跟别人一样,练好基本功。

And, you know, you still have to develop the skills with a guy.

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那些十三四岁的孩子,都在拼命练。

Guys are a thirteen fourteen.

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因为他们知道,光靠速度冲不破防守了,我也没那么快。

They're working because, like, I can't get past people by just running past them because I'm not faster.

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所以我得学会骗人,得好好练这些技巧。

So I have to, like, fake them out, which means I gotta really work on this.

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这种事情真的会发生。

And and that would happen.

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很多这样的家伙到了大学之后,就像亚历克斯刚说的,每个人都是运动好手。

And then what happens with a lot of these guys is they would get to say college and or like like Alex just said, everybody's a good athlete.

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对吧?

Right?

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你从以前那种明显的优势,变成了差距小多了。

You went from, you know or the differential is much smaller.

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这也没办法。

It's okay.

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你还是快,但也没快出多少。

Well, you're fast still, but you're not that much faster.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

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有些人的速度跟你差不多,甚至更快,但光靠速度已经不管用了。

And there are some guys who are pretty close as fast or maybe guys who are faster, but it doesn't work anymore.

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这时候你才意识到,早该花好几年打基础了。

And then all of a sudden you had should have been spending years developing these fundamental skills.

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而且往往这时候已经太晚了。

And it's too it's often too late.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

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真的很难做到这一点。

It's really hard to do that.

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所以这挺有意思的。

So it's like it's interesting.

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你知道的。

You know?

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我的意思是,不管什么事,只要你天生有天赋,这其实也可能是种天生的负担。

I mean, I think it's in everything when you're having a natural gift that you can also call it a natural curse.

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对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

他并不是。

He's not Yeah.

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Speaker 1

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 1

就像是那种

It's like the

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特别的能力,你不需要做别人必须做的事——而那些事其实你本来就应该做。

special, and you don't have to do things that other people have to do, which are the things you need to be doing anyway.

Speaker 1

这种纯粹技能的两面性。

It's the duality of these pure skills.

Speaker 1

一方面,我们可以通过让你更快、更强来提升你的水平,比如在健身房增重,或者单纯地冲刺训练。

It's like, on one hand, like, we can we can up your game by getting you faster, getting you stronger, just like in a pure sense, weight in the weight room or just sprinting.

Speaker 1

但如果你只依赖这些,把它们当成全部,那你其实是在限制自己。

But if that's what you that's the only thing that you lean on, if that's your entire game, then you're limiting yourself.

Speaker 1

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 1

就是这样。

It's like that.

Speaker 0

那段时间真的特别难,因为你和我都教过那群六七年级的孩子,教他们最初的代数课。

Well, it it was so tough because you because you and I both taught and worked with these six seventh or sixth graders in the first running algebra.

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你知道吗,我儿子科尔比是表现最差的。

And, you know, my son Colby was the all time worst.

Speaker 1

天哪。

Oh my god.

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是的。

Yeah.

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真的没错。

This is true.

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原因是他总能蒙混过关。

And the reason is because he could get away with it.

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要让他明白道理实在太难了。

It was so hard to convince.

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我还有个孩子叫内森,比科尔比小一岁。

I had this other kid, Nathan, who was a year younger than Colby.

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我当时就想,兄弟,我太了解你这孩子了。

I was like, dude, I'm like, I know you kid.

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我是认真的。

Like, I'm telling you.

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我知道你脑子里能一步到位,但总有一天你会碰到靠这套行不通的时候。

Like, I know you can do all these steps in your head, but you will eventually run at a point where it's not gonna work so well.

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对他们来说,问题就在于:什么才算管用?

And the problem is for them, they're like, what works?

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我记得有一次,嗯……

And I I remember this in okay.

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打篮球的时候,我就用这个例子。

In in in basketball, so and I use them.

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谁都会听进去。

I got anybody's listens.

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我经常用体育方面的比喻。

I do a ton of sports analogies.

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抱歉,这其实就是我看待事情的方式。

I'm sorry, but it's just how I think about things.

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我不是那种高个子后卫,个子一般,但我靠速度绕开对手,手里有几个拿手动作。

But I would I was not a you know, I'm an average height guard, and I would use my speed to go around people, and I would have a couple of moves.

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我记得别人总说:你每次都干这一套。

And I remember people say, oh, you just always do this or that.

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我就说:那你来拦我啊。

And I'm like, well, stop me.

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对吧?

And I was like, right.

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他们老抱怨,因为我总能左右晃过他们,怎么都防不住。

Like, they they would complain because I could just do this left or this right every time, and they couldn't stop it.

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但我没好好练外线投篮,因为靠速度就能轻松过人。

But I didn't develop an outside shot like I should have because I could just use my speed to around people.

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对吧?

Right?

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所以我对这一点是亲身经历的。

So I I know this personally.

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我当初犯了错,因为你知道,我们以前聊过那个故事,教练杰森说过,以你的身高想打大学篮球,必须得有个特别特别准的三分球。

Like, I messed up because, you know, and I think just we told talked about the story in the in the past where coach Jason, like, you wanna play college basketball at the college level at your height, you need a really, really good three point shot.

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是的。

Yeah.

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所以你得开始练了。

So you need to start working on it.

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哦,对啊。

I'm like, oh, yeah.

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行吧。

Okay.

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没错。

So, yeah.

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关键是,这种优势其实是天生的。

So the thing is, it's it's the the more of an advantage is inherent.

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这份礼物让你明白,通常越难打破的,反而越有价值。

This gift gives you, the harder it is to break them usually.

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我的意思是,有时候关键在于他们是否愿意接受指导。

I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of what their coachability is.

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对吧?

Right?

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但你知道,对孩子来说,如果某种方法有效,你就得说不行。

But, you know, as with kids, if something works, you say, no.

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不行。

No.

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不行。

No.

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不行。

No.

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别这么做。

Don't do that.

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就这么做。

Do this.

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他们就说:这招管用。

And they're like, it works.

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既然有效,干嘛不这么做呢?

Like, why would I not do that?

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对吧?

Right?

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这根本说不通。

It's just this this doesn't make any sense.

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你跟我说,我看到的就是事实,每次这么处理都有效。

Like, you're telling me, like, I see the world as it is, and I this happens, and it works every time.

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既然有效,干嘛不这么做呢?

Why would I not do that?

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因为这其实很简单。

Because it actually it's easy.

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没错。

Right.

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而且我做起来很自在。

And I'm comfortable doing it.

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但一旦这种情况发生,就会固化下来。

But it's especially when it occurs, it locks that in.

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对成年人来说,这真的很难打破,他们总说:你看,我这是在帮你啊。

And it's so hard to break for an adult who's like, look, I'm trying to help you, man.

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我真的在帮你,求你了。

Like, I'm trying to help you, please.

Speaker 1

而且传统观念也说,要抓住有效的方法,对吧?

And conventional knowledge too is like lean into what works, right?

Speaker 1

在营销领域,你经常听到这句话。

You hear that in marketing all the time.

Speaker 1

到处都能听到:抓住有效的方法。

You hear that like everywhere, lean into what works.

Speaker 1

有时候,很难分清到底是顺势而为,还是把当前有效的方法当成了拐杖。

So it's hard to kind of untangle that sometimes between like the difference between leaning into what works versus using what is currently working as a crutch.

Speaker 1

有时候这种区别非常微妙。

It's really subtle sometimes.

Speaker 1

很难分辨,但从长远来看,这两条路完全是不同的方向。

It's hard to tell the difference, but the in the in the long term, these are two completely different trajectories.

Speaker 0

是的。

Yeah.

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这真有意思。

It's fascinating.

Speaker 0

所以,亚历克斯,我不知道你有没有更多关于这个故事的想法,我们可以继续聊,但我觉得我们还是回到原本该谈的话题吧。

So well, Alex, I don't if you think if you have anything more on the story, I we can we can go on it, but I wanna we can probably pull it back to what we're originally supposed to talk about.

Speaker 2

我觉得

I think

Speaker 0

这其实也不算意外。

we can kind of unsurprising.

Speaker 2

我们还是回到之前聊到的SAT吧。

Let's let's let's go back to where we were talking about the the SAT.

Speaker 2

其实我们本来想聊好几件事,比如这个——没错。

So I suppose we wanted to talk there's a number of things we wanted to talk about like so, yeah.

Speaker 2

我们刚才花了一些时间讨论所谓的‘中间缺失’部分,就是我们在X上提到过的那个‘中间缺失’。

So we we just spent some time fitting in what's called that the so called missing middle that we've talked a bit about on X about the missing middle.

Speaker 2

我觉得这个话题挺有意思的,值得深入聊聊。

And I I think that'd probably be kind of a fun thing to talk about.

Speaker 1

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 1

你本来还想讲讲SAT课程的历史,这本来就是我们最初打算谈的内容,只是杰森突然插进来,把话题带偏了。

Thought you'd even go through the history of the SAT course, which is, yeah, what we were originally gonna talk about before Jason just, like, grab the

Speaker 0

方向盘和注意力都被抢走了。

wheel and watch.

Speaker 1

不过,还是回到历史话题吧。

But, yeah, let's get back to the history.

Speaker 0

好,那我先简单梳理一下。

So, okay, so let's just, let me just frame it a little bit.

Speaker 0

我们最初是凑合着给Alpha School编了一套SAT课程,这个我可以公开说,因为他们经常提到Math Academy。

And then, so we initially cobbled together an SAT course for, it was Alpha School, which I can say publicly because they always they mention Math Academy a lot.

Speaker 0

Alpha School是一家比较前卫的私立学校,主要在德州,也在其他地方有分校。他们当时说,嘿,我们想帮学生备考SAT,你能帮忙弄个课程出来吗?

So Alpha School's a very forward leaning private school, I guess, in Texas and other places, but they were like, hey, you know, we're trying to prepare students to go take the SAT.

Speaker 0

你能帮我们编一套课程吗?

Can you put together a course?

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我当时也是这么想的。

And I was like, yeah.

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对。

Yeah.

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我就跟 Alex 说,你帮忙梳理一下 SAT 考试涵盖的那些技能点,把我们现有的内容整合成一门课。因为那些知识点分散在几何、代数、代数二还有综合数学里,太零散了。

And said, Alex, can you just take a look at the, you know, review what is the described skills that are covered in the SAT and take what we have and put it into a single course because they would spread across geometry and algebra and algebra two and algebra, and it's a sort of like or integrated math.

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根本没法把它们按紧密程度归类。

It's like there's no way of like, well, how close are they?

Speaker 0

哎,我也不太确定。

Like, I don't know.

Speaker 0

那时候她就提醒过我。

You know, it's so now at the time, warned me about it.

Speaker 0

她说:这门课真得好好做,不能马虎。

She's like, look, I I just really gonna be a good SAT course.

Speaker 0

我的意思是,我们确实把所有基础内容都涵盖了。

I mean, if you guys and I said, well, I I mean, I think we have all the the fundamentals there.

Speaker 0

应该没问题的。

It should be fine.

Speaker 0

她警告我说,这事儿没那么简单,我记得我之前也跟你提过这事。

And she's like, I don't she warned she was gonna ingest and you I think I mentioned I asked you about it too.

Speaker 0

我就问她:你不是多年辅导学生准备SAT了吗?

I said, what do because you tutored kids for NSAT for years.

Speaker 0

你说过,这课程还不够全面。

And you you were like, it's not it's not totally comprehensive.

Speaker 0

是的

Yeah.

Speaker 0

这些是学生参加SAT考试所必需的基本能力,无论学校采用的是传统课程还是综合课程,这些内容都包含在标准课程里。

This is are the constituent skills that a student is going to need for the SAT that exists in the standard curriculum, whether it's traditional or integrated.

Speaker 1

对

Yeah.

Speaker 1

但如果你把SAT的要求直接套用到标准课程上,就会发现陈桑的警告是有道理的。

But if you project the SAT on the standard curriculum Echo Sandy's warning.

Speaker 1

这远远不够。

Like, this is not nearly sufficient.

Speaker 1

是的

Yeah.

Speaker 1

你不能只靠这种课程就直接去参加考试。

To like, you can't just come out of that.

Speaker 1

那个纯粹基于标准课程内容的原始课程,根本不够用。

Original course that was just based on the standard curriculum stuff.

Speaker 1

学生光靠这些内容,是不可能在SAT数学上考到800分的。

A student can't just take that and then come out like scoring like an 800 on the SAT math.

Speaker 1

对。

Right.

Speaker 1

我们得额外补充很多标准课程里没有的东西。

We had to do, there's a lot of stuff outside of the standard curriculum that that we were gonna have to build in.

Speaker 1

而且在

And at the

Speaker 0

那时候,亚历克斯像往常一样,同时在带好几门课。

time so Alex, as usual, has had his he they had we had, like, multiple courses going.

Speaker 0

所以我跟他说:亚历克斯,你能把这些内容整合一下吗?

So I like he's like, Alex, can you just can you put this together?

Speaker 0

他回答:好的。

And you're like, okay.

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那你具体想让我做什么?

What what do you want me to do?

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我就说,你看。

I'm like, look.

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你干脆就说,行吧。

Can you just you're like, fine.

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结果一周之内,你就把内容给分析完了。

And within, like, a week, you just analyze the stuff.

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你接着说,好吧。

You're like, alright.

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这就是实际情况。

This is this is what it is.

Speaker 0

然后你就说,对。

And and you're like, yeah.

Speaker 0

我觉得这安排不错,因为你只是在看,没去分析考题。

I think it looks good because you were just looking at you weren't analyzing tests.

Speaker 0

你只是看了下各个知识点的描述,觉得咱们该有的都有了,挺好的。

You were just looking at the descriptions of the topics and, like, I think we got all this stuff and I think it's good.

Speaker 0

然后,可能过了六个月,甚至还没那么久。

And then I maybe it was six months later, maybe not even that long.

Speaker 0

我接到了安迪·蒙哥马利的电话,他是Alpha学校课程方面的负责人之类的。

I got a I a call with Andy Montgomery who's like head of curriculum or something for Alpha School.

Speaker 0

人特别好。

Really, really nice guy.

Speaker 0

特别聪明。

Really bright guy.

Speaker 0

他好像是斯坦福毕业的计算机科学博士。

He's like a PhD in computer science from, like, Stanford or something.

Speaker 0

他一直都很出色,以前在数学学院就表现突出,所以人很随和,跟他说起话来很轻松。

And he's always been, like, really impressive Math Academy and, you know, was very so he was he was a supporter, so he's easy to talk to.

Speaker 0

他对我说:‘杰森,你们的口碑很好,尤其是在X平台这些地方。’

And he's like, listen, Jason, you you guys have a great reputation, you know, especially on X and things like that.

Speaker 0

但要是你们宣传说课程能帮人准备某件事,结果却做不到,那就全毁了。

One way to ruin it is to say you have a course that prepares you for something and doesn't.

Speaker 0

我当时就问,你这话是什么意思?

And I was like, you know, what do you mean?

Speaker 0

他说,你看,我们让学员做了模拟考试,然后我们的团队做了分析。

He's like, look, there are there are you know, we had our students go through the test and they were taking practice tests and we had our team analyze it.

Speaker 0

结果发现有不少知识点和题目,学员们根本没准备好。

And there's just a lot of a lot of there are a number of topics or questions that they just really weren't prepared for.

Speaker 0

我就说,听到这个确实不太舒服,但我很感谢你的反馈。

And I was like, and I was like, well, I don't love hearing that, but I appreciate the feedback.

Speaker 0

然后我想起来,你之前提醒过,还有桑迪也提醒过。

And then I I remember that, you know, Justin, your warning and Sandy's warning.

Speaker 0

挂了电话后,我就去找桑迪聊了聊。

Because then I got off the the call and I talked to Sandy.

Speaker 0

她说:我早就跟你说过了。

She's like, I told you.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

她说,我就说,唉,他们确实想要点什么。

She's like and I said, well, we they wanted something.

Speaker 0

我们只能把最好的东西拿出来给他们。

We had to give them the best thing we had.

Speaker 0

但她指出,把这门课公开,多少有点把我们暴露了。

And she's but by making it a public course that that exposed us a little bit.

Speaker 0

于是我心想,行吧,这事儿得赶紧改。

And so then I was like, okay, we gotta we gotta fix this.

Speaker 0

这实在不太妥当。

This is this is not cool.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

这本来就是那种我完全没留意的事情。

And it's just one of those things I just was not paying attention to it.

Speaker 0

当时我们手头的事情太多了,课程、技术项目,样样都在忙。

We had too many balls in the air, too many different courses we're working on, too many different tech projects.

Speaker 0

我当时就想,哦,对,他们做得不错。

I just was like, oh, yeah, we're they're good.

Speaker 0

他们呢,你知道的,不好意思啊,这段有点啰嗦,但其实这挺重要的。

They're, you know, and then and I'm sorry, this wind up is long, but this is a little bit

Speaker 1

算是个不错的背景铺垫。

of a it's good background.

Speaker 1

对,有点前情提要。

Yeah, a little back.

Speaker 1

这事儿吧

It's a

Speaker 0

有点复杂。

little complicated story.

Speaker 0

然后亚历克斯就说,行了,我们搞定了。

But and then we and then Alex is like, all right, we got it.

Speaker 0

我们搞定了。

We got it.

Speaker 0

我们得把这个问题理清楚。

We got to sort this out.

Speaker 0

我觉得打完那个电话后,我就立刻找你们俩谈了。

I think after that call, I jumped on both you guys.

Speaker 0

我说,我们必须马上解决这个问题。

Was like, we got to we got to fix this now.

Speaker 0

这已经是个问题了。

This is a problem.

Speaker 0

你就是Alex。

And you're Alex.

Speaker 0

我们开始对这件事做了一些研究。

We started doing some research into it.

Speaker 0

我们请了一位数学家,专门分析过去的考试题,想搞清楚到底缺了什么——哪些知识点是学生根本没准备好应对的。

And, you know, we had a guy we had hired who mathematician who was really analyzing past tests and sort sort of trying to figure out like what what was missing, you know, like what what were topics that questions on these exams that students really would not be adequately prepared for.

Speaker 0

这就像是在黑屋子里摸黑找东西一样。

It was sort of like a groping around in a dark room trying to find this stuff.

Speaker 0

我们其实找了两个人来帮忙。

And we went through a couple of two guys, really.

Speaker 0

工作量太大了,你根本没法全神贯注,毕竟你还要上统计课、机器学习课、街头数学课,还有其他一堆东西。

There's a lot of work and it was there was in getting out, you couldn't put your full attention because you had, you know, I think probably statistics course, machine learning course, the street math course, you know, all those others other things.

Speaker 0

所以这门课在你清单上可能排到第四第五了。

So you're just this is just like course number four or five on your list.

Speaker 0

整个研究项目就这么拖着慢慢推进。

And it was just sort of this research project was going on.

Speaker 0

但到了某个时候,我们就意识到,得系统性地处理这个问题了。

But at a certain point, it was like, okay, we need to get systematic about this.

Speaker 0

我们把SAT官方数据库里所有的1500道题都拿过来了。

And we took we took all 1,500 problems on the public database that the SAT what is it?

Speaker 0

大学理事会公布的那些题,说这些是代表考试题型的1500道题,我们就全收了。

The the college board publishes say these are the 1,500 problems or whatever they are that are representative of the type of problems that are on the exam.

Speaker 0

然后我们开始有条理地梳理这些题目。

And we we got systematic about it.

Speaker 0

然后,亚历克斯,那时候我们开始意识到,这些题目到底是什么?这里是SAT里比较难的问题。

And then, Alex, that was in the time we were we started realizing, okay, like what what are these topics like here are the problems here are the harder questions of the SAT.

Speaker 0

这些是我们手头材料里已经涵盖的问题。

Here are the here are the here are the questions that are on the in the in the material we have.

Speaker 0

那中间缺了些什么呢?

What's what's in that gap?

Speaker 0

我们开始把这种缺失的部分叫做‘中间空白’。

We started we started referring to that as the missing middle.

Speaker 0

所以,亚历克斯,你和你的团队就开始深入研究这个问题——我们该怎么填补这个空白?

And so Alex, you and your team started really pushing on that, You know, how do we close that gap?

Speaker 0

能不能说说这个过程?就是你们是怎么找到这个‘中间空白’的?

I mean, talk a little bit about that process that, you know, finding the missing middle?

Speaker 2

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

当时我们采取了双管齐下的方法。

So that it was kind of like a double pronged approach.

Speaker 2

当我们手头有了所有题库里的题目后,就知道得做个备考课程,一个涵盖SAT可能出现的所有题型的课程。

So the so when we had all the the kind of the the question bank questions, we knew we needed a test prep course, a course that basically had every single type of problem that could come up on SAT.

Speaker 2

所以我们想,好吧,得把这些题目和对应的解法都准备好。

So we sort of, okay, we need those questions and we need solutions to those questions.

Speaker 2

于是我就着手把符合我们标准的题目和解法一一录入数据库,方方面面都得做到位。

So I sort of set about the process of populating the database with those questions and solutions that are kind of done to our standard and things like that.

Speaker 2

然后从这个角度去填补那个缺失的中间部分。

And kind of like fitting out the missing middle from there, from that end.

Speaker 2

但只是为了说明一下,

But just to

Speaker 0

我们并没有直接用那些题目。

be clear, we didn't use those questions.

Speaker 0

我们只是拿它们当参考,来确定我们需要哪些类型的题目。

We just used them as a model for the kind of questions for a class of questions that we would need.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 2

没错。

Correct.

Speaker 2

对。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

就是这样。

That's that's right.

Speaker 2

所以呢,就是说,好吧。

So it's just like, okay.

Speaker 2

好吧。

Okay.

Speaker 2

没错,就是这样。

This yeah.

Speaker 2

完全正确。

Exactly.

Speaker 2

而且,这些解法会把课时补全。

So and, you know, the solutions will complete the hours.

Speaker 2

我们看了题干部分。

We looked at the question stems.

Speaker 2

就是说,好吧。

It's like, okay.

Speaker 2

我们通常会把这些题目消化吸收,变成我们自己的东西。

You know, we would we would talk make that our make them our own.

Speaker 2

这些答案基本上都是我们团队自己写的。

The solutions were basically completely written by our team.

Speaker 2

不过呢,我们开始往系统里填充这类备考题,用这种方式补上中间缺失的部分。

But yeah, so we started sort of populating the system with those kind of like test prep questions and kind of filling out the missing middle that way.

Speaker 2

但后来贾斯汀得好好理清楚模拟考试的事,因为作为备考课程的一部分,我们需要高保真的模拟考卷。

But then Justin needed, he needed to get his arms around like the practice test because as part of the test prep course, we need high fidelity exams.

Speaker 2

于是他仔细研究了模拟考题,非常细致地找出哪些是缺失的中间知识点,哪些也是缺失的中间知识点。

So he started looking at the practice tests and did a really, really, really thorough job of identifying, okay, this is a missing middle topic, that's a missing middle topic.

Speaker 2

所以大概花了多久呢?大概一周左右,还是两周?

So over the course of about, was it about a week or so, two weeks?

Speaker 2

你懂的,他就从考试的角度做了个空白点分析,把结果给我,说:好了。

You know, just did like a missing middle analysis from the point of view looking at the the the tests, the the exams, gave that to me and said, okay.

Speaker 2

这个内容得加进课程里。

This this needs to be in the curriculum.

Speaker 2

所以就这么定了。

So it's okay.

Speaker 0

这算是第二阶段,因为第一阶段你只是看了那1500道题。

So That was phase two because you went through phase one because you were just looking at the 1,500 problems.

Speaker 0

那时候你就在想,我们是不是快到位了?

You're like, I think we're and I would cure out of glass from like, are we are we close?

Speaker 0

我的意思是,你觉得差多少?

I mean, how many you like?

Speaker 0

我觉得大概还差十到二十个知识点吧,差不多了。

Well, I think we're maybe 10 more, 20 topics away or whatever.

Speaker 0

我们正在逼近目标了。

Like, we're getting in.

Speaker 0

我顺口跟贾斯汀提了一句,他却说:我不确定。

And I kind of mentioned it offhand to Justin and he's like, I don't know.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

然后呢,

And then that's

Speaker 1

就是这样。

what like.

Speaker 1

他之前跟我说过,听起来SAT课程下周就能结束了。

Had mentioned to me like, Hey, it sounds like the SAT course is gonna be done next week.

Speaker 1

这完全是基于我辅导经验,对这门课该覆盖内容和实际考试之间差距的理解。

And that was just like my conception of like what this course needs to cover versus the actual exam just based on tutoring experience.

Speaker 1

我当时觉得,咱们就差一周了。

Was like, we're one week away.

Speaker 1

事情没那么简单。

Doesn't something does not.

Speaker 1

听起来这方面内容应该再多一点。

It sounds like there should there should be more on it.

Speaker 1

这就是我说的意思。

That that's what that's

Speaker 0

正是这个让你开始关注我们。

what got you to start looking at us.

Speaker 0

我会想要。

I will want.

Speaker 0

好吧,咱们先看看一些模拟题,然后你去翻了所有的模拟题,接着又去找了那些公开的旧考题,还有别人凭记忆整理出来的题目,差不多就是这类东西。

Okay, well, we'll go take a look at some practice exams and see like and then you went and looked at all the practice exams and then you dug in and you went and looked for published exams or old exams and the cobbled together by people who remembered certain questions and then just kind of write or something like that.

Speaker 1

SAT其实多年来一直发布过官方真题,都可以查到。

They have official, the SAT had released official exams for years past that you can access.

Speaker 1

哦,原来如此。

Oh, okay.

Speaker 0

就是那个加上模拟题。

It was that plus the practice exam.

Speaker 0

所以题目范围非常广。

So give a huge range of questions.

Speaker 2

是的。

Oh yeah.

Speaker 0

这跟题库里的题目侧重点不一样,题型也不太一样,对吧?

Which sort of was a different emphasis or different types of problems than were just, that were on the question bank, right?

Speaker 1

对。

Yeah.

Speaker 1

结果发现题库的覆盖范围并不完整。

Turns out the question bank was incomplete in coverage.

Speaker 0

没错。

Right.

Speaker 0

没错。

Right.

Speaker 0

所以,亚历克斯,你觉得漏掉了多少个中间知识点?

So so, Alex, how many topics do you say missing middle topics?

Speaker 0

我说的那些缺失的中间内容,可不是只缺了一个知识点那么简单。

And and and when I say missing middle topics, it was not just, like, one topic bridge.

Speaker 0

有时候得补上一整串知识点,才能把差距填上,因为很明显,SAT题目里最难的那些,有的地方我们离得近,有的地方离得远。

Sometimes it would be a whole sequence of topics to bridge the gap because it wasn't it was obviously so if you had the questions on the SAT, the hardest questions, it was sort of like we were closer and further on certain topics.

Speaker 0

所以你得把这些缺口补起来。

And so you had to bridge that.

Speaker 0

有时候只缺一两个知识点。

Sometimes it was one or two topics.

Speaker 0

有时候则需要搭建一整套层层递进的支撑内容,学生才有可能在规定时间内解出题目。

Sometimes it was a whole sequence of a cluster of scaffolding that had to be built up for for a student would be able to have a reasonable chance of solving a problem in the time allotted.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 2

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

说到底,我们最后加了大约115个新知识点。

I mean, I think in the end, it end up being about 115 new topics is what we added.

Speaker 2

很多呢。

A lot of them.

Speaker 2

确实很多。

Is a lot.

Speaker 0

是的。

Yes.

Speaker 2

确实不少。

It is a lot.

Speaker 2

最大的一块是描述性统计相关内容。

The biggest area was like the descriptive statistics stuff.

Speaker 2

这部分内容挺多的。

It's quite a lot.

Speaker 2

SAT考试里对各种数据集的分析要求其实挺高的。

It's not, you know, on the SAT, there's quite a lot of emphasis on, you know, sort of analyzing different types of data sets.

Speaker 2

有些题目还挺有难度的。

And some of the problems are quite challenging.

Speaker 2

而且我们还得补上大量中间缺失的内容。

And there was a lot of missing middle stuff that we needed to add for that.

Speaker 2

我觉得,就算只看常规课程,我们的覆盖范围也不够,更别提那些了。

I don't think we really had enough coverage just even in even just considering the regular curriculum in in let alone the the the

Speaker 0

但这个问题是普遍存在的。

But it was across the board.

Speaker 0

这确实是我们的薄弱环节。

That was just our weakest area.

Speaker 0

统计学部分明显是短板,但其他地方也到处都是问题。

Script of test statistics was a was a was a obvious a clear weak point, but it was, everywhere.

Speaker 0

二次函数、分析二次函数、方程组、立体几何。

Quadratics, analyzing quadratics, systems, equations, lepto geometry.

Speaker 1

给听众提个参考,115个知识点,对比一下我们代数一课程,大概有200个左右吧?

Just for for listeners, 115 topics, compare that to our our algebra one course has what, like, 200 ish topics?

Speaker 1

就是

Like

Speaker 2

差不多就是这样。

something like that.

Speaker 1

220个。

220.

Speaker 1

所以这差不多相当于一整年完整课程的一半内容。

So this is about half of like a full length, full school year course.

Speaker 1

没错。

Right.

Speaker 1

内容真不少。

That's a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1

对。

Yeah.

Speaker 1

所以说。

So right.

Speaker 1

所以你是说,还有描述性统计。

So you're saying there's descriptive statistics.

Speaker 1

还有些什么呢?

What else was

Speaker 2

里面还有哪些内容?

in there?

Speaker 2

我通常发现,很多内容其实都处在边缘地带。

That was So what I tended to find is that it was A lot of the stuff, it was kind of like on the periphery.

Speaker 2

我说的是,描述性统计特别突出,因为那部分内容实在太多了。

I mean, the descriptive statistics stands out because it was just such a huge amount of stuff.

Speaker 2

所以我们之前说题库差不多做完了,其实也就做到这儿为止了。

And that's kind of what we So when we said we were kind of done with the question bank, it was like, that's as far as we kind of got.

Speaker 2

我们得弄大量这类内容。

It was like, we need a ton of this stuff.

Speaker 2

因为涉及图表和类似的东西,我们需要很多不同的主题,那段时间主要精力都放在这些上面,先把它们搭起来。

And because it's graphs and tables and things like that, we need lots and lots of topics, kind of a lot of the attention was kind of focused on that for a little while, just kind of getting that in place.

Speaker 2

除此之外,就只是一些我们已有内容的轻微扩展,差不多每样就加一两个小点。

Aside from that, it was kind of just stuff like almost like one or two topic extensions of things we already had.

Speaker 2

绝大多数情况都是这样。

That was the vast majority of the cases.

Speaker 2

你确实讲到了这部分,但讲得不够深入,让准备SAT的人一看题目根本不会觉得:哦,这个我懂。

Okay, you cover this, but you don't cover it to the point where someone who is using this to prepare for the SAT is gonna see that question go, yeah, oh, yeah.

Speaker 2

我知道怎么解决这个问题。

I know how to do this.

Speaker 2

你明白吧?

You know?

Speaker 2

我有一些例子,是写下来的,我觉得挺有意思的。

I've got I've got some examples which are which are kinda written which are written down, which I thought were quite interesting.

Speaker 2

比如系统里有很多关于指数模型的内容,但像时间单位的转换——比如从小时换到天,这会怎么影响模型,还有相关的百分比增减,这些方面就比较少。

So so things like we've a lot of stuff in the system on like exponential models, but things like sort of shifting units of time, you know, going from hours to days and things like how does that affect the model and percentage increase and decrease that are kind of related.

Speaker 2

不过我觉得这方面确实是个重点,就这一块。

But that was that was like that was one area that I thought was yeah that was one.

Speaker 1

对,这可不是简单的单位换算。

Yeah that's not a straight up unit conversion.

Speaker 1

这是因为时间在指数模型的指数位置上。

That's like because the time is in the exponent of exponential model.

Speaker 1

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 1

所以不能只是简单地乘以365,以为一年就是这么算的。

So you have to it's not just oh just multiply this by like three 65 in a year.

Speaker 1

不是的,你得用指数的运算法则来处理,因为这种情况比较复杂。

No, there's, you have to use exponent rules and stuff like that to actually make this conversion because it's in a kind of complicated setting.

Speaker 2

对,就是这样。

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2

还有一种题型是SAT特有的,我以前从没见过别的地方有。

And, you know, think, and there's one which, there was one type of topic which was quite exclusive to the SAT.

Speaker 2

我以前从没在其他地方见过这种题。

I've never seen it anywhere else before.

Speaker 2

还是跟指数函数有关,你刚开始分析的时候管这叫‘谜题’是吧?

And again, exponential functions, you you called it riddles when you first did your analysis?

Speaker 2

是啊,因为我当时没想出个好名字。

Yeah, because I didn't have a good name.

Speaker 1

我当时就想,这到底是什么鬼东西?

I was like, what, what the hell is this?

Speaker 1

谁会这么干啊?

Like, why would anyone okay.

Speaker 1

行吧。

Fine.

Speaker 1

好吧。

Alright.

Speaker 1

这根本就是个脑筋急转弯。

This is just this is basically a riddle.

Speaker 1

故意说得特别绕,就是为了让人犯迷糊。

It's just worded intentionally confusingly to try to throw somebody off.

Speaker 1

不过话说回来。

But yeah.

Speaker 2

所以,没错。

So so yes.

Speaker 2

我真的很想保留这个名字,觉得它特别好,但当我们深入核心时,发现其实本质上就是把一个指数模型重新表达一下——比如在指数部分减去一,这会影响常数项。

So I I I really wanted to keep that name because I thought it was great, but I thought when we got kind of down to the crux of it, it's like, okay, what this really is is taking an exponential model and kind of rewriting it so that, you know, you subtract one in the exponent, but that affects the constant.

Speaker 2

所以这个常数能反映出函数本身的某些特性。

So the constant can reveal different parts about the function itself.

Speaker 2

我们当时确实没有充分探讨过这类问题:如何在不同类型的指数模型之间切换,以及常数是如何与模型本身关联、揭示模型特性的。

So, yeah, we didn't really have that, like, you know, sort of flipping between one type of exponential model with another and how that is related to the very How the constants are related to the model itself, what it reveals.

Speaker 2

所以,这确实是个很专门的方向。

So yeah, that's quite niche.

Speaker 2

而且考试里还出现了几道特别刁钻的题。

And there was some really nasty questions on the exam.

Speaker 2

所以说,其实只是在指数函数的整个内容基础上,硬加了一两个知识点,确保学生能应对这类题。

So again, it was just kind of like, it's just one or two topics that had to be added onto all the exponential function stuff to make sure that they can do that.

Speaker 2

但这个内容又必须得有,因为如果你第一次在考试里碰到,或者刚开始做模拟题就遇到这些,根本招架不住——这类题出现的频率太高了。

But it needed to be there because if you see that for the first time in the exam or you start doing practice exams, you're hit with these all the time, it's quite a frequent type of question.

Speaker 2

如果你没得到明确的解释,根本搞不清到底在考什么,那这场考试肯定会特别难熬。

It's gonna be pretty brutal if you haven't had like explicit instructions to what the hell is actually going on.

Speaker 2

那些二次函数的题目,课程里其实都涵盖了,比如求根、找顶点之类的。

If some of those quadratic ones, I mean, the curriculum had all the stuff about finding roots of quadratics, finding the sort of the vertex and all those kinds of things.

Speaker 2

但你想想,又是一类典型题型。

But think about, so almost like, again, like type questions.

Speaker 2

这些性质成立,那你能从中推断出系数之间有什么关系吗?

These properties are true, what does that tell you about the relationship between the coefficients?

Speaker 2

所以这些内容都得加进去。

And so that all had to be included.

Speaker 2

有些题目,说实话,我特别喜欢,比如我们加进来的这一类——我在SAT上见过很多次,题目会用一大段话描述某个物理现象,比如电通量密度之类的。

Some things like, you know, some questions, actually probably one of my favorites, think that we did add was, again, I saw it on the SAT quite a lot, which was like they give you quite a a verbose description of some sort of physical phenomenon like electric flux density or something like that.

Speaker 2

但关键是,参加考试的学生未必是物理背景的。

And and, know, bottom line is that the kids taking this aren't necessarily physicists.

Speaker 2

他们可能完全听不懂你在说什么。

They might not know have the faintest idea what the hell you're talking about.

Speaker 2

所以呢,好吧。

So it's like, okay.

Speaker 1

可能连一门物理课都没上过。

May not have even taken a single physics course.

Speaker 1

通量?他们根本不知道这是啥。

Flex, they might have no idea what that even is.

Speaker 2

没错。

Exactly.

Speaker 2

所以我们得找个主题,能把这些物理概念讲给非物理专业的人听。

So it's like, okay, we need a topic that basically explains all this physics stuff to non physicists.

Speaker 2

不是去解释什么是电通量密度。

Not the way to explain what electric flux density is.

Speaker 2

关键是弄清楚题目想考察学生能做什么。

It's getting to the crux of what's this trying to ascertain the student is able to do.

Speaker 2

就是把这段复杂的描述提炼出重点,从中列出公式,再做个单位检验,差不多就是个常识性验证。

It's like take this complex description, sort of highlight the really important parts, use that to write down a formula, do like a unit check, almost like a sanity check.

Speaker 2

好,单位平衡了。

Okay, the unit's balanced.

Speaker 2

这说明公式看起来没问题了。

That means that the formula looks like it's good to go.

Speaker 2

然后稍微做点推导处理。

And then kind of do some kind of manipulation.

Speaker 2

我们并不是想把每个人都培养成物理小专家。

So we're not trying to create like mini physics experts here.

Speaker 2

就掌握这一个能力。

It's that one skill.

Speaker 2

面对那种特别啰嗦的陌生概念,把关键信息提取出来,然后加以运用。

Take an unfamiliar concept that's presented in that very, very wordy kind of form, extract out the useful information and work with it.

Speaker 0

其实有意思的是,很多学生根本没学过物理,对吧?

Well, you know, what's interesting about this is because right because because right, a lot of students don't take physics, right?

Speaker 0

他们学的是生物和化学,可能上了两年化学,学了基础化学,还选了AP化学。

They take biology and chemistry and maybe take two years of chemistry, take basic chemistry and they take AP chemistry.

Speaker 0

他们根本就没学过物理。

They don't even take physics.

Speaker 0

所以从很多方面来说,这个问题其实不公平,对没学过物理的学生很不利。

And so it's sort of an unfair, it's unreasonable questions to ask in a lot of ways because it is a disadvantage to anyone who has happened to have taken physics.

Speaker 0

但我觉得这更像是通过关联来评估。

And but I feel like it's sort of like a it's like a assessment by correlation.

Speaker 0

学过物理、还能记得住的学生,通常能力更强,表现更好,分数也更高。

So students who've taken physics and can remember the physics are probably stronger students and they do better at this and they score.

Speaker 0

你明白我的意思吧?

You know what mean?

Speaker 0

这其实就是一种不公平的优势,你说对吧?

It's just kind of bullshit, you know, advantage that you're giving, you know.

Speaker 1

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 1

而且这已经够了。

And it's enough.

Speaker 1

这就像找借口,说他们根本不用懂物理。

It's like, can hide behind the idea that like, oh, well, they don't have to know physics.

Speaker 1

关键是能从题目里拆解出一个陌生词,根据描述当场判断哪些信息是关键。

It's about parsing an unfamiliar word out of a problem statement and spinning, like just based on the description, figuring out what's relevant on the fly.

Speaker 1

但说实话,如果你以前见过这个词,哪怕只做过一两道题,也不用精通,但只要有过接触,优势就大得多。

But yeah, the truth is, if you have seen this word before, if you have just a couple problems, you don't have to be an expert on it, but if you have exposure to it before, then you're at a big, big advantage.

Speaker 1

如果你知道‘通量’这个词,其实就只是指穿过某个几何表面的力线数量。

If you know that flux, it really just comes down to the amount of force field lines going through geometric surface area.

Speaker 1

你脑子里马上就会想,哦,这根本就是在考表面积,对吧?

Already have in your head, oh, this is really about surface area, right?

Speaker 1

但要是从来没碰过这个词的人,就会想:通量?这跟长度、表面积、体积有什么关系?

Whereas somebody who's never ever seen that before, they're like, flux, What does that have to do with length, surface area, volume?

Speaker 1

他们根本搞不清重点在哪里。

They don't even know what's important.

Speaker 1

以前见过的话,就能马上反应过来。

Seeing it before kind of tips you off.

Speaker 1

这能帮你善用这种抓住重点的策略,因为你脑子里的既有认知已经调整好了。

It helps you leverage this strategy of knowing what's important because your priors in your head are all shifted.

Speaker 2

他们会

They're gonna

Speaker 0

你如果不熟悉,真正会让你慌神的,就是突然冒出一句:天哪。

be you're not familiar, what's really gonna throw you off, gonna be like, oh crap.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

可能会有点措手不及。

Could freak out a little bit.

Speaker 0

我是不是该懂什么是flux啊?

Like, am I supposed to know what flex is?

Speaker 0

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 0

等等,我根本不知道flux是什么。

Wait, I don't know what flex is.

Speaker 0

并不是说,我觉得大多数人会想,哦,这里要用点物理知识。

It's not like, and I don't think most people say, well, they're they're going to use some physics stuff here.

Speaker 0

你根本无从知晓。

You're not gonna know.

Speaker 0

我们希望你做的,就是跟着描述走,别多想。

And just what we want you to do is just add go with the description and don't think about it.

Speaker 0

但我觉得,这并不是大多数学生预期的样子。

But that's I don't think what most students are expecting.

Speaker 0

这真的不公平。

It's just it's just unfair.

Speaker 0

所以,亚历克斯,你得在数学基础课里,专门设计一套小课程,涵盖这类题目。

So, Alex, you had to build up a whole curriculum, mini curriculum within the within the math with math fundamentals course, SAT math fundamentals course that gave a range of these types of problems.

Speaker 0

这类题目其实有很多不同的变体。

There are lots of different versions of this.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

所以这不仅仅是密度或者通量这么简单。

So it wasn't just like, well, it's just density or just flux.

Speaker 0

而是有各种各样的情况。

There were just different.

Speaker 0

所以你得覆盖足够多的类型,让他们熟悉各种不同的词汇、术语、常数这些东西。

So you had to kind of do enough range so they could get comfortable with a lot of different words and and term terminology and constants and stuff like that.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 2

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

没错。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

当然了。

Absolutely.

Speaker 2

我的意思是,整个教学设计得非常细致,层层递进。

I mean, you know, again, like, very, very, very finely scaffolded.

Speaker 2

所以,你能根据广泛的情境,看懂描述并写出对应的公式,这种能力本身就很关键。

So, you know, just just the the ability to kind of, like, given a wide range of context, just to do that, you know, read the description and write down appropriate formula.

Speaker 2

接下来一步就是,好,你得先写出公式,然后还要会变形它。

And then the next step will be, okay, do that, but then you have to manipulate the formula.

Speaker 2

再下一步呢,就是这种涉及变化率的题型。

And then the next step will be, okay, then we've got this one, which is kind of like a rate of change.

Speaker 2

你得能一眼认出来,比如胡克定律。

You have to kind of spot that, you know, Hooke's law.

Speaker 2

这跟弹簧的原始长度没关系,关键是弹簧的伸长量。

It's not about the length of the spring, it's the extension of the spring.

Speaker 2

所以你得明白,这里说的其实是弹簧长度的变化量。

So you have to recognize that that is referring to like some change in the length of the spring.

Speaker 2

所以我们当时选了几个主题,我觉得挺有效地填补了这个空缺。

So yeah, so we had a few topics that basically, I think did a pretty good job at kind of like closing the gap.

Speaker 2

我觉得‘中间缺失环节’的设计目的就是这个——弥合常规课程和考试冲刺所需技能之间的差距。

And I think that's what the missing middle is designed to do exactly that, is to close the gap between a regular curriculum and like what is actually needed for the test prep, to be successful on the exam.

Speaker 2

我本来正想说说这一点。

I was gonna say something about that now.

Speaker 2

对,其实有两件事我想提一下。

Yeah, so it's a little bit like, yeah, yeah, oh, there's two things I was gonna say.

Speaker 2

我觉得基础课和备考课之间的区别,有点像这么回事。

So the difference between the fundamentals course and the test prep course, I kind of imagine it a little bit like it.

Speaker 2

想象你是个职业拳手,虽然没安排比赛,但拳击就是你的饭碗。

Imagine you're like a professional boxer and you know, you haven't got a fight lined up but you're a professional boxer, this is what you do for a living.

Speaker 2

你得每天都去健身房,拼命训练,练步伐、练力量、练耐力,练刺拳、练所有出拳技巧,诸如此类。

You know, so you need to be sort of showing up to the gym every single day, training your ass off, you know, making sure you're working on your footwork, on your strength, on your endurance, on your jab, on your all your punches and stuff like that.

Speaker 2

就是全面的身体素质和体能训练。

So just general all around conditioning and fitness.

Speaker 2

基础课做的就是这个事。

That that's what the that's what the fundamentals course does.

Speaker 2

它就是帮你达到那个状态,

It just kinda gets you to the point where you're

Speaker 0

就是基本的拳击技巧。

in the fundamental boxing skills.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

基本的

The fundamental

Speaker 2

拳击?没错。

boxing Absolutely.

Speaker 2

基本的拳击技巧。

The fundamental boxing skills.

Speaker 0

怎么移动、出拳这些,所有这些东西。

How to move and, you know, in punch and whatever, all that stuff.

Speaker 0

他们练的都是这些技能,但并不是说,

These are a lot of skills that they're working on, but they're not they're not, what

Speaker 2

你所谓的实战对练。

you call, sparring.

Speaker 2

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 2

他们并不是针对某个特定对手进行训练。

They're not exactly training for a specific opponent.

Speaker 2

所以呢,就是这么回事。

So it's like, okay.

Speaker 2

对,就是这样。

So okay.

Speaker 2

那到了第二天,你就会说,好吧。

So then then then, like, next day you go is, okay.

Speaker 2

我们安排了一场拳赛。

We've got fight lined up.

Speaker 2

有个选手来自X地。

There's a it's it's a guy who's from from X place.

Speaker 2

他是左撇子。

He's a southpaw.

Speaker 2

他个子很高。

He's tall.

Speaker 2

你知道,他身体状态很好。

You know, he's he's he's fit.

Speaker 2

他力量很强。

He's strong.

Speaker 2

所以当你把基本功都练扎实了,接下来就是针对这个对手做准备了。

So you that that's the point where you kind of got all your fundamentals nailed and you're then preparing for that specific opponent.

Speaker 2

这时候你得有针对性地加强某些方面,确保自己为这场对决做好充分准备。

So there's certain things you wanna sort of, like, lean into, focus more on just to make sure you're as prepared as you can be for that opponent.

Speaker 2

所以这个对手呢,就像是

So that opponent It's like

Speaker 0

策略。

strategy.

Speaker 0

对吧?

A Right?

Speaker 0

没错,就是这样。

So this is Exactly.

Speaker 0

正是如此。

Exactly.

Speaker 1

对。

Yeah.

Speaker 1

如果你要对阵迈克·泰森,难道你连他以前的比赛录像都不看吗?

So if you're if you're going up against Mike Tyson, are you just gonna not look at his, like, previous fight videos?

Speaker 1

你就只按平时的训练流程来,然后直接上场,好像随便谁走进拳台都一样?

You're just gonna do your normal workout routine and then just show up, like like, it could be anyone steps in the ring?

Speaker 1

不可能。

Like, no.

Speaker 1

你肯定得认真研究一下。

You're gonna actually, like, look.

Speaker 1

他平时都怎么打?

What does he do?

Speaker 1

他身体是怎么倾斜的?

How does he lean?

Speaker 1

他出拳的时候,有没有哪些地方比其他对手更容易暴露弱点?

Where when he throws punches, are there any, like, weak points exposed more often than you would see in other opponents?

Speaker 1

你得在进拳击台之前好好研究他,不然肯定会被打得惨不忍睹。

You're kinda studying him before you step into the ring with him because otherwise, you're just gonna get your ass kicked.

Speaker 1

没错。

Right.

Speaker 1

而且他也知道,你也在对他做同样的事。

And he and you know that he's doing that to you also.

Speaker 0

对。

Right.

Speaker 0

这在所有运动里都是如此。

This is true of all sports.

Speaker 0

不管是大学还是职业比赛,他们都会反复分析录像,每周花好几个小时看对手的比赛录像。

So whether you're, you know, like you especially at college and professional where they break down tape, they spend hours and hours and hours a week watching tape of upcoming opponents.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

所以你知道,比如你在NFL打球,面对另一支美式橄榄球队时,就得琢磨清楚:他们的进攻风格是偏向冲球还是传球,有哪些强项和弱项,习惯怎么打。

And so, you know, when when, you know, if they're playing in the NFL, you're playing on another football team, American football, then you're trying to figure, okay, what we okay.

Speaker 0

他们通常有特定的防守阵型,有擅长的战术,也有明显的短板。

They have they're a run first offense or they're a pass first offense, so they have these kind of secondary and they have strengths and weaknesses and things that they want to do.

Speaker 0

那些曾经赢过他们、或者限制住他们发挥的球队,到底是怎么做到的?

Then teams that have put up either beat them or or taken away some things, how do they do it?

Speaker 0

我们能从中学到什么?

What can we learn from that?

Speaker 0

所以你说得完全对。

So you're really right.

Speaker 0

你得提前为这支队伍做好准备。

You start preparing for that team.

Speaker 0

最顶尖的运动员,其实都会自己主动这么做。

Now the the the the best athletes would do that on their own.

Speaker 0

比如说,很久以前有个叫丹尼斯·罗德曼的,当年在底特律打球。

Like, there's I think a Dennis Rodman who played for Detroit back many, many years ago.

Speaker 0

我不是医生。

I'm not doctor.

Speaker 0

我们当年在底特律打过球,后来去了公牛队。

I play we did play for Detroit, then play for the Bulls.

Speaker 0

他可是篮球界顶尖的篮板手。

And he was like this incredible rebounder in basketball.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

他不仅打NBA,还特别擅长这个。

And and he was that and played the NBA.

Speaker 0

我好像看过报道,说他花成百上千个小时,专门研究其他高大球员是怎么抢篮板的。

And he I I think I read something where he would have been hours and hours and hours watching how these other big men from these other teams would rebound.

Speaker 0

他还研究那些射手投篮时,球打在篮板上的反弹轨迹。

And he would also have where were certain shooters when they would shoot where their ball would go tend to go off the glass.

Speaker 0

所以他就会站在篮下,因为当那个人投篮时,球往往偏短,容易掉在篮筐前面。

So he would position himself under the basket because there's a bigger tendency when this guy shoots, it goes short and it tends to fall short.

Speaker 0

所以我要提前站到那个位置,或者球如果偏长的话,我也能抢到。

So I wanna be in that or tends to go long.

Speaker 0

球要是打到篮筐侧面弹出来,我也能占到好位置。

It's a bounce at the side.

Speaker 0

他就是靠这些细节来提升自己的表现。

So he would do all these things.

Speaker 0

他会研究对方其他大个子球员是怎么站位的,这样自己就能占据更有利的位置。

He'd learn how the other big men and the other team would position themselves so he would be in a in a have a more leveraged position.

Speaker 0

他还会摸清每个射手的习惯,知道他们投出的球大概会往哪个方向弹,把这些小优势加起来,他就成了史上最强的篮板手之一。

And then he would understand also the tendency of whoever shooting where the ball would tend to And so you add up all these little advantages, and then he was like this unbelievably good rebounder.

Speaker 0

不过话说回来,这种道理在所有运动里都一样。

But anyway, so same goes in all sports.

Speaker 0

就是这么个道理。

It's like, okay.

Speaker 0

先把基本功打扎实。

You get your fundamentals in place.

Speaker 0

现在该制定策略、规划安排,开始做那些能让你在比赛当天发挥出最佳水平的事了。

Now it's time to game plan, strategize, come up with, start and doing the things you need to do to maximize your performance on the day of the event.

Speaker 0

是的。

Yeah.

Speaker 0

所以说,这其实挺有意思的。

So, well, you know, it's interesting.

Speaker 0

不过我有件事想说一下。

One thing I wanted to say though.

Speaker 0

我觉得这种思维方式真的很棒。

So I think it's a really cool way of thinking about it.

Speaker 0

我以前还真没这么想过,但我记得我曾经用过一个比喻,我老喜欢用比喻。

I hadn't really thought about it in that way, but I remember one analogy I used that I sometimes I think of analogies.

Speaker 0

我总是会想到类似故事一样的东西。

I I always think of almost like stories.

Speaker 0

我其实看了一部电影。

I actually watched a movie.

Speaker 0

对吧?

Right?

Speaker 0

我当时在谈中间缺失的问题,就说,因为我们先得讲清楚这个。

And so I was talking about the missing middle and I said, imagine because we're first talking about this.

Speaker 0

我说,想象一下,你请了一位每小时200美元的SAT家教。

I said, okay, imagine that you hired this really high priced SAT tutor.

Speaker 0

价格高得离谱。

$200 an hour, some crazy amount.

Speaker 0

而且这人真能出成绩。

And and this guy delivers results.

Speaker 0

大家都说,你找这位老师,帮你孩子辅导一下,效果特别好,于是你去见他,心里想,你到底有啥绝活?

And people say, you know, you can hire this guy, work with my son or with my daughter and had this incredible results, you know, and so you and so you you meet this guy and you're like, so what what do you do that's so special?

Speaker 0

他却说,唉,我干这行很久了。

And he's like, well, you know, I've done this for a long time.

Speaker 0

我分析了所有的考试题。

I've analyzed all the tests.

Speaker 0

我先仔细研究了这些学生的情况,给他们做了非常深入的评估。

I analyzed where these students first, I give these kids students have really in-depth assessments.

Speaker 0

我真正了解他们的优势和短板。

I really understand their strengths and weaknesses.

Speaker 0

所以我们第一步,就是先把这些问题补上来。

And so the first thing we do is remediate all those things.

Speaker 0

这当然是他们该做的。

That's obviously what they would do.

Speaker 0

但我做的另一件事是,我发现SAT里那些难题和学生在学校里学的内容之间,往往缺了很多关键技能。

And then what I do is I've developed there's typically a lot of missing skills between the harder questions on the SAT and then what students have covered in school.

Speaker 0

过去十年里,我自己开发了一套教学材料,专门针对学生需要掌握却没学到位的地方,帮他们一步步提升。

And I've developed my own materials over the past ten years, you know, where I have, you know, that I have teaching students, okay, they need this and they got to do this, I'm gonna build on that.

Speaker 0

我把这些关键内容叫做我的‘核心考点’。

And so I call my golden topics.

Speaker 0

我有整套方法,你作为家长坐那儿,心里肯定想,这太厉害了。

I have this whole thing, you and know, you're sitting there as a parent.

Speaker 0

哇,真是没想到。

You go, wow.

Speaker 0

这些所谓的黄金知识点。

The golden topics.

Speaker 0

到底什么是这些黄金知识点呢?

Like, what are those golden topics?

Speaker 0

他就会拿出一个小册子,说:看,我这儿都整理好了。

And he's like, I know he pulls out his, like, a little and he has, like, a some booklet that he's put together and say, okay.

Speaker 0

我们发现,像指数这类内容,还有那些常考的题型,他全都有系统梳理。

We see we cover all this exponential stuff and the scripted that, you know, he's like, just facts what you're talking about.

Speaker 0

所以我们得找出这些黄金知识点,就是学校课程里没教到的部分。

And so we gotta come up with this these golden topics that that is sort of this this area of these things are not covered.

Speaker 0

这些内容根本不在常规教学范围内。

They're not covered in the normal curriculum.

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