你是否在忽视你的更高自我？神经科学家谈直觉、巧合与灵魂讯息 | 马乔里·伍拉科特博士

这并不意味着他触碰的每个人都会经历这种体验。

It's not to say that every single person he touches will have that experience.

我想明确一点，就像你所说的，有些人似乎天生就具备某种能力。

And I wanna be clear about that, that just as you indicated that some people seem to be born with something.

对吧？

Right?

这一点对人们理解很重要，因为很多人会说：‘他碰了我，但什么都没发生。’

That's important for people to understand because a lot of people would say, well, he touched me, and it didn't happen.

所以这个人，玛乔丽，是疯了。

So that person, Marjorie, is crazy.

而且，你知道，她正在经历某种扭曲的东西。

And, you know, she's experiencing something that is, a distortion.

这是一种感知问题。

It's a a perception problem.

这是一种妄想。

It's a delusion.

对吧？

Right?

但意思并不是这样。

But the idea is not that.

意思是，我们讨论的是一种微妙的能量系统，它并不一定遵循牛顿物理学的规律。

The idea is that we are talking about a subtle energy system that does not necessarily obey the same laws that Newtonian physics does.

对吧？

Right?

这需要被归为一个不同的类别，这一点我们甚至在和凯·狄更斯讨论心灵感应录音时也提到过。

This is a difference that it has to have a different category, which means that and we've talked about this even with, you know, with Kai Dickens when we talk about the telepathy tapes.

它不会遵循相同的规则。

It's not going to obey the same rules.

所以，如果你用同样的科学实证范式来对待它，就会导致分裂。

So if you start applying the same paradigm of scientific veracity to this, it will lead to a split.

这会导致这个领域内的分裂，而这正是我们所看到的。

It will lead to a divisiveness in this field, which is exactly what we see.

正是像你这样的人，像朗博士、格雷森博士和塔克博士这样的人，正试图通过经验来证明：这是一种不遵循科学方法所依赖的相同规则的现象。

And it's people like you it's people like doctor long and doctor Grayson and doctor Tucker right who are trying to use experiences to show this is a thing that does not obey the same rules by which you would use the scientific method right.

没错。

That's right.

我只是想补充一些细节：我们所研究的是大脑中的神经过滤机制，它们限制了我们获得更广泛觉知的能力。

And I just want to add the nuances to that and that is that what we have looked at and we can talk about the neural filters in the brain that keep us from having wider awareness.

那些长期冥想或深度内省的人，他们的大脑过滤机制被大大降低，因而拥有更广阔的觉知。

That those people that have been deep in meditation or deep inside on have their brain filters turned way down and they have wider awareness.

经历濒死体验的人，其大脑的过滤机制几乎完全关闭，因此也具备更广阔的觉知。

The person with the NDE has basically things turned pretty much off and they have a wider awareness.

作为神经科学家，我认为事情没那么简单。

That's where the neuroscientist in me says it's not so simple as that.

我们必须思考这些细节：当经历濒死体验的人脱离了身体，或者冥想者脱离了身体时——因为冥想者常常也会脱离身体——他们就不再以同样的方式与自己的神经系统、体感系统、肠神经系统等相连。

And we have to think about those nuances and whether when the person with an NDE has now left their body or the person with meditation, because often the person with meditation experience leaves their body, They're no longer connected in that same way to their beautiful nervous system, somatosensory, enteric, etcetera.

但即便如此，他们依然存在。

And yet, there they are.

事实上，他们的意识会移动到医院的不同房间，例如，了解周围发生的一切。

In fact, with their awareness moving to different rooms in a hospital, for example, and knowing everything around them.

所以，正如你所说，这种现象具有令人沮丧的矛盾性：它并非发生在每个人身上，但发生的频率远不止零星几例。

So there is, as you say, that frustration, that paradoxical nature of this phenomenon that it doesn't happen to everyone, but it happens more than just here and there.

唯物主义者想说这只是个案，但当你拥有大量跨越不同文化的个人证据时，我倾向于认为，即使无法理解其机制，也必须开始相信这种现象。

Materialists want to say it's anecdotal, but when you have so much single person evidence that is across cultures, I tend to think you have to begin to believe in the phenomenon if not understanding the mechanism.

是的。

Yeah.

这让我想起了吉尔·博尔特·泰勒，当她的理性大脑停止运作时，她仍能保持某种程度的行动力和意识。

I mean, it reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor also when she had the experience of her rational brain going offline, and she was able to be mobile and conscious to some extent.

她正经历着这种体验。

She was having this kind of experience.

这可以说是濒死体验与迷幻超验体验之间最出色的共通之处。

Like, it's one of the best collaborative elements of near death experiences and psychedelic transcendental experiences.

我认为人们想了解的是：我该如何觉醒？

I think what people wanna understand is how do I wake up?

有时候，人们是因为得知这种可能性而觉醒的。

And sometimes people are waking up through hearing the fact that it's possible.

所以，也许我们可以从你分享并研究过的那些令人惊叹的故事开始，这些故事讲述了那些经历超越了物质主义世界解释范围的人，促使我们开始探索其他可能性。

So maybe we can start with some of the amazing stories that you share and that you've written about and researched about people who have experiences that we cannot explain through the materialist world that make us begin to explore something else.

是的，我不确定该从哪里说起，但首先想到的是费德里科·法金，你们俩都很熟悉他，也许你们的一些听众也了解他。我第一次认识他是在一部关于他的纪录片上映时，后来我亲自见过他好几次。他当时的情况和我有点相似，只不过他并没有在冥想静修中有人触碰他。

Yeah, I'm not sure where to begin but the person person that came to mind was again Federico Fagin who you both know well and maybe some of your listeners know well, who I got to know I think when a first documentary came out about him and now I've met him a number of times personally where again he was in a situation a little bit like me though he didn't have a meditation teacher touching him in a retreat.

他只是感到沮丧，因为他拥有想要的一切财富、世界上最棒的家庭，还发明了微处理器，所有这些成就。

He was simply feeling frustrated because he had all the money he could want, the best family in the world, invented the microprocessor, all of these things.

他本该感到满足，但他并不满足。

He should be satisfied and he was not satisfied.

然后，在圣诞节期间的一个深夜，在太浩湖，他半夜醒来，口渴了，去喝了一口水，又坐了回去。

And then in the middle of the night, at Christmas time at Lake Tahoe, he wakes up in the middle of the night, he's thirsty, gets a drink of water and he's sitting back down.

突然间，他的心脏爆发出一种强烈的感受——有趣的是，对他和我而言，这种感受都来自心脏——他感受到一种令人惊叹的光明与爱。

Suddenly, this explosion in his heart, again it's the heart interestingly for him and me, comes and he feels, as you know, like this feeling of amazing light and love.

他不知道自己是像宇宙的波函数一样无所不包，还是一个独立的个体，正经历着这一切。

And he doesn't know whether he's everything like the waveform of the universe or whether he's a particle, a separate individual being with this happening.

但关键是，是的，这是可能的。

But it's like, the point is yes, it's possible.

对我们许多人来说，这种体验似乎发生在我们决定对五感现实感到不满，觉得它无法充分满足我们的时候。

And for many of us it seems to happen when we decide we're dissatisfied with our objective five senses reality that they aren't fulfilling us enough.

事业、家庭，以及其他一切。

Career, family, everything else.

内心某处响起一个声音：我想要更多。

And something inside said, I want more.

这是我看待这个问题的一种方式。

And this is the way I look at it a bit.

这几乎就像你的自我中心开始微微崩塌。

It's almost like that feeling like your egoic like center is beginning to collapse a little.

你曾以为一切都在掌控之中，但实际上并没有。

It's like you thought you had everything in line and you didn't.

这种崩塌中出现了一丝裂缝，让其他某种现象得以发生。

And it opens up a little bit of a crack in that collapse to allow some other phenomenon to happen.

无论我们称之为另一种能量进来帮助你觉醒。

Whether we call it another energy to come in to help wake you up.

但它能让你，我想说，用我自己的描述方式，开始感受到与整个世界的能量连接，而不是继续困在那个保护自己、确保自己在他人面前看起来很好、感觉良好的小自我外壳中。

But it allows you, I would say, maybe the way I would describe it is, it allows you to begin to feel an energetic connection with the rest of the world instead of feeling so separate in that little egoic shell that we have around us to protect us and make sure that we look good to everybody else and we feel good, etcetera.

就像那道裂缝出现后，我们可能会发现一些更好东西。

It's like that cracks, then we find something maybe much better.

我认为，很多人可能会想知道的一件事是，尤其是当他们正在挣扎、处于一种生活不如意、感觉事情无法顺利推进的状态时。

I think one of the things that, you know, many people might be wondering, especially if they're struggling, especially if they're in a place where they're feeling discontented, like, they don't feel like things are coming together in their life.

他们对世界事件感到恐惧。

They're scared about world events.

他们对本国正在发生的事情感到恐惧。

They're scared about what's happening in the country.

如果我的身体没有经历那种电光石火般的体验，我还能在自己的神经系统中获得某种平静、安全感、舒适和安心吗？

Can I achieve some sense of peace, security, comfort, safety in my nervous system if I don't have this electrical lightning bolt experience in my body?

因为对我们许多人来说，当听到这些经历时，我们会想：哦，这对你来说真好。

Because for many of us, when we hear these experiences, it's like, oh, that's great for you.

我真为你高兴。

I'm really happy for you.

对于那些正在冥想、静坐却感受不到闪电般体验的我们，你会说什么呢？

What would you say to the rest of us who are meditating and sitting and we're not feeling a lightning bolt.

我们感受不到烟花绽放般的震撼。

We're not feeling fireworks going off.

我们做昆达利尼瑜伽时，他们说，这就像一条蛇在盘绕。

We're doing the kundalini yoga, and they're like, oh, it's like a serpent coiling.

而我却觉得，这不过是屁股坐在瑜伽垫上而已。

And I'm like, it just feels like my ass on a yoga mat.

你会对这样的人说什么呢？

What do you say to those people?

我们该继续尝试吗？

Do we keep trying?

还是说，我们的基因根本就没被设计成能体验这种感受？

Are we genetically not programmed to have that?

除了大量服用蘑菇并进入大自然之外，我们还能接近什么？

What can we get close to short of taking a lot of mushrooms and going into nature?

这是个非常好的问题。

That's a really good question.

我想说的是，当我进行这些现已发表的研究时，研究对象是那些经历过冥想觉醒的人，而且这类研究一共有两项。

And I would say that when I did these studies now that are published on people that have had meditative awakenings, and again there are two of them.

其中一项研究的对象是普通人群，我想大概是三百多人左右。

One was on average people, I think it was like maybe 300 and some odd people that were in one study.

另一项研究的对象是科学家和学者。

The other one was on scientists and academics.

我们研究了是什么触发了他们的觉醒，我们可以称之为心灵的开启。

And we looked at what triggered their opening that we might call a heart opening.

其中涉及了多种因素，正是你提到的那些人们通常在做的事情，但不知为何，对这些人来说，这些行为恰好突破了某种阈值，从而引发了更深层的体验。

And there were a number of things which are what you're talking about people normally doing but for whatever the reasons for them that happened to like move beyond some sort of a threshold that allowed something more to go.

当然，他们都在进行冥想、瑜伽等练习。

And so of course they are doing those practices like meditation, yoga, etcetera.

但同时也和那些经历过这种觉醒的人多待在一起，因为当你和这样的人在一起时，会有一种特定的传递感。

But also hanging out with other people that have had this awakening because there is a certain feeling of transmission when you're around people like that.

我得交新朋友了，你是这个意思吗？

I need to get new friends, that's what you're telling me?

没错，交些新朋友。

Right, make new friends.

这是一个有趣的现象，我确实注意到，事实上，他们经常说，当你在一个冥想团体中时，更容易让自己进入宁静的心态。

And it's an interesting phenomenon, but I have certainly noticed, in fact, they often say that when you're in a group that meditates, it's easier to induce yourself into that quiet state of mind.

这里举个例子。

And here, give an example.

我想我们常常认为，唉，我冥想有困难，然后才发现，原来我一直在熬夜看电视。

I think that we think about the fact that, well, I'm having trouble meditating and then you find out, well, I've been watching TV until late at night.

我喜欢在网上购物，买一堆衣服，也喜欢去所有商场，做这做那。

I love going shopping on the web and buying all these clothes and I love going out to all the malls and I do this and I do that.

是的，我喜欢和朋友出去喝酒、通宵派对。

And yes, I like going out with my friends and drinking and partying all night.

然后第二天早上我起来，就无法冥想了。

And then, I get up next morning and I can't meditate.

我怎么了？

What's wrong with me?

我会睡着。

I fall asleep.

所以，我的生活和交新朋友。

So, my life and get new friends.

明白了。

Got it.

是的。

Yeah.

所以在冥想静修期间，人们常常会问：为什么我就是无法进入状态？

So, often in a meditation retreat people will ask that, Why can't I get there?

然后就会发现，看看你的生活吧。

And then it's like, Well, look at your life.

所以，不妨问问自己正在做什么，你花在平静内心上的时间，是否和你一整天寻找干扰的时间一样多？

So just talk to yourself about what you're doing and are you spending the amount of time on quieting your mind compared to how you're seeking for distractions throughout the day?

或者你全身心投入工作，因为你认为如果我为工作投入110%的努力，我就会成为一个更好的人。

Or giving yourself totally to your work because you think if I put 110 effort into my work, I'm gonna be a better person.

也许你可以把工作时间减少到80%，多留一点时间来平静内心，那样或许就有效了。

Well maybe you could cut it back to 80% for your work and have a little more time for quieting your mind and maybe that would do it.

所以我认为，如果你真的想要，有时只需要一点诚实的自我反省。

So I think sometimes it's a little bit of honest introspection if you really want it.

如果我一天喝四杯咖啡，就很难感到平静和与万物相连，因为我的整个系统都在想：接下来该做什么？

If I drink four cups of coffee in a day, it's much harder to feel still and connected to everything else because my whole system is like, what do I do next?

接下来该做什么？

What do I do next?

如果需要坐下来大量写作或做研究，这当然很好，但对感受与整个宇宙的连接却非常不利。

And that's great if I have to sit down and write a lot or research a lot, but it is not very good at feeling connected to the entire universe.

我认为这就是关键所在。

I think that's the point.

每一种传统都有许多可以帮助我们平静心灵的工具，每个人都会找到适合自己的那种方法。

It's like each one of these traditions has many tools that we can use to quiet our mind and everybody will find a different tool that works for them.

这才是关键问题。

And that's the key issue.

当一个人在冥想静修中问，我需要做什么才能进入那种状态时？

When a person asks for example in a meditation retreat, well what do I need to do to get into that state?

答案是，你需要向内倾听，尝试不同的方法，比如很多传统都会说，重复一个咒语。

And it's like look, you need to listen inside and try different things and say, oh, for example, a lot of traditions say repeat a mantra.

天主教传统有他们自己的念珠可以重复诵念。

The Catholic tradition has their own rosary that they repeat.

在印度传统中，会有一套特定的咒语，包括针对呼吸的咒语。

In Indian traditions there will be a particular set of mantras including one for the breath.

这是一种平静心灵的咒语，如果你持续专注于它，杂念就会消失，你就能进入无思无虑的状态。

It's like so or This is quieting mantra and if you keep focusing your mind on that, the thoughts go away and you can drop into that thought free state.

当然，再结合研究来看，当我观察深度冥想者的研究时，会发现他们的默认模式网络——即大脑皮层中热衷于构建关于‘我是谁’和‘我的生活发生了什么’的自我叙事的部分——会安静下来。

And of course again bringing in the research, when I look at the research on deep meditators, you find that their default mode network which is as part of the cerebral cortex that loves to create a beautiful egoic narrative about who I am and what's going on in my life, it quiets down.

你可以在fMRI扫描图中看到这一点。

You can see that in the scans from the fMRI.

是的，就是这样。

It's like, oh yeah.

当我开始感觉到胸口有一种扩展感时。

And that's when I begin to feel expansion in my chest.

所以我认为，我们几乎已经有了某种所谓的生物反馈方式，来判断自己是否达到了那种状态。

So I think we almost have sort of quote unquote biofeedback ways of knowing if we're getting there.

然后，哦，原来如此，这就是为什么感觉这么好的原因——因为我的大脑中这些不同的过滤机制正在逐渐平静下来，我开始感受到更多的相互连接。

And then, oh, that's why it feels so good because now all these different filters in my brain are beginning to quiet down and I'm now beginning to feel more interconnected.

贝尔纳多·卡斯特罗普讨论了这种分离的概念，他举的例子是患有多重人格障碍的人，他们拥有多个身份，当治愈后，这些身份会重新融合为一个。

Bernardo Castropp talks about this whole idea of dissociation and the fact that we're this almost like a, his example is a person that has multiple personality disorder and they have multiple personalities and when they're healed they become one again.

我们其实与他人是分离的，当我们的界限变得更具渗透性时，就会开始感受到与他人更紧密的连接。

It's like we are dissociated from everybody else and when our barriers become more porous we then begin to feel more interconnected with people.

哦，原来这就是真正的我。

And it's like, oh that's who I am.

我与其他人是相连的。

I'm connected with everybody else.

即使在我们周围发生着各种世界事件，我们也会感觉更好。

And then we feel better in spite of the world events that are going on around us.

我想知道你能否谈谈一些你认为能更自如地获得这种体验的人群。

I wonder if you can talk a little bit about some of the populations that you believe have access to this in a way that is more fluid.

是什么让某些人，尤其是那些可能表现出超感知现象、超感官能力的人与众不同？

What is it about certain people and in particular, you know certain people who may also exhibit psi phenomenon, extrasensory abilities.

这两者之间的交集是什么？

What is the Venn diagram here?

是拥有特殊能力让你更开放吗？

Is it that having special abilities makes you more open?

是天生更开放的能力让你能够接触到超感官信息吗？

Is it that being gifted at being more open allows you to access extrasensory things.

这里的重叠部分到底是什么？

What what is the overlap here?

哪个先发生？

What comes first?

嗯，这就是先有鸡还是先有蛋的问题。

Well, yeah, it's the chicken egg thing.

我来给你举几个例子，因为我觉得这里面存在很大的差异。

And I'll just give you a few examples because I think there's a lot of variation.

正如我们从布鲁斯·格雷森、杰弗里·朗等人那里了解到的，当一个人经历濒死体验后，常常会不自觉地带回这些超感知能力。

As we know from Bruce Grayson, Jeffrey Long, etc, that when a person has a near death experience, they often come back, whether they want it or not, with these psi abilities.

我知道杰弗里·克里帕尔提到过一位叫伊丽莎白·克罗姆的女性，她并不想要那些关于空难的预知以及洞悉他人想法的能力。

And I know Jeff Kripal talks about that with the woman Elizabeth Crome and she did not want those recognitions about plane crashes and knowing what other people thought.

但这些能力确实发生了。

But that's what happened.

所以，她的内在某种能量发生了转变，那些超越时空的‘通道’——无论我们如何定义它们——对她来说已经打开了。

So something energetically had shifted inside of her so these portals, whatever we mean by portals, that go beyond time and space are open for her.

我知道她可能曾祈祷希望摆脱这些能力，因为它们给她带来了许多困扰。

And I know she probably prayed to let go of them because they caused a lot of problems.

所以有一个例子你可以看到，关于濒死体验，心脏停止跳动，改变了她内在的某些东西，现在一切都敞开了。

So there's one example that you can see, something about the near death experience, the heart stopping, shifted something inside of her and now everything's wide open.

对其他人来说，是进入深度冥想，然后在深度冥想中确实会经历这样一个时刻。

For other people it is going into deep meditation and then in fact they have this moment in deep meditation.

例如，当这种能量觉醒发生时，他们可能会离开身体，再回来时便拥有了之前没有的直觉意识。

For example, maybe when this energetic awakening happens they leave their body and they come back again with this intuitive awareness that they didn't have before.

然后是一些非语言自闭症儿童，他们不具备正常的沟通能力。

Then there are the kids that are non speaking autistic and they don't have normal communication abilities.

他们的神经系统显然与普通人不同，但在发育过程中，或者从他们出生起，他们的基因和神经系统就让他们能够以我们其他人无法做到的方式与他人交流、听见他人的想法、接收他人的思想并传递思想。

Their nervous system is clearly divergent from the average person but in the process of development or as they came in, something about their genetics and their nervous system allows them to now communicate with other people, hear their thoughts and receive thoughts from other people and give thoughts in ways that the rest of us can't do.

所以当我们说，我们认为正在发生什么？

So when we say, what do we think is going on?

我认为这显然可以通过不同的方式实现。

I think that it clearly can be accessed in different ways.

濒死体验、深度冥想、自发觉醒。

Near death experiences, deep meditation, spontaneous awakenings.

还有一些人天生就是这样。

And also there are certain people that come into the world this way.

而这些人也正是我们所说的通灵者。

And those are the ones also that we may call mediums.

我的意思是，我真希望有一天能聊聊通灵现象，因为作为一名神经科学家，我曾经对通灵持怀疑态度。

I mean I think at some point I'd love to talk about mediumship because as a neuroscientist I said, you know, this to mediumship.

我说过，这就是我这么认为的原因。

I said, look, this was my reason for saying that.

因为如果世界上真的存在其他实体，那可能既有好的也有坏的，而我不希望有任何坏的实体，所以我干脆说通灵不可能发生。

It's like because if there are other entities in the world, there might be bad entities as well as good entities and I don't want any bad entities so I'm just gonna say mediumship can't happen.

所以当我写那本书时，我去弗吉尼亚大学见了爱德·凯利，他做了大量这方面的研究，我在书出版前给他看了我的稿子。

And so when I was writing that book and I went to the University of Virginia to talk to Ed Kelly who does a lot of this research and I showed him my book before it was published.

她说：‘这本书很棒，但你漏掉了一个章节。’

She said, well, it's a great book but you left out one chapter.

我问：‘是哪个章节？’

And I said, well, what's that?

他说：‘通灵能力。’

And he said, mediumship.

我说：‘哦，那是因为我担心与那些不在眼前的实体接触会有这些风险。’

And I said, Oh, well that's because I'm afraid for these reasons of contacting entities that are not in front of me.

他笑了。

And he laughed.

当然，这让我开始愿意去审视这些研究，并发现人们能够做到的事情——包括与已故亲人之间的互动——是多么惊人。

And of course it allowed me to open up to looking at the research and finding out it's amazing what people can do including as you know the interactions with their loved ones on the other side.

在与克里斯·罗等人合作撰写了一篇关于近一千名有过与已故亲人通灵体验的人的研究论文后，我越来越觉得，这些人似乎确实打开了一扇门户，能够以某种方式接收到已故之人的信息。

And having now written a paper with Chris Rowe and others on about almost a thousand people that had had mediumship experiences with their loved ones who had died, I see how it seems very compelling to me that those people have this portal open and they somehow can receive that information from someone who has died.

像我以前那样的怀疑者可能会说：‘等等。’

Again, a skeptic like I was before would say, excuse me.

但这些研究发现，另一方的人会提供一些只有本人知道的关键信息。

But the fact that in these studies they find that that person on the other side gives the person on this side key information that nobody knows.

我记得有一个例子，实际上，另一方的人联系了这家人的朋友，因为家人自己无法建立联系，也感受不到这些信息。

And I think one example was a, in fact, the person on the other side contacted the friend of the family because the family couldn't connect, couldn't really feel this.

他们说，你父亲想让你知道钥匙的事。

And they said, Your father wants you to know the key.

当他们听到‘钥匙’时，以为指的是爱的钥匙。

And when they heard the key they thought it was going to be the key to love.

但其实枪柜的钥匙就在这个特定的地方，我知道你希望处理掉我去世前拥有的那些枪。

But so the key to the gun cabinet is in this particular place, and I know you wanna get rid of the guns that I had before I died.

所以，我们再次看到了这种‘通道’的例证。

So it's like, here we have examples of, again, that opening.

我想让你带我们深入理解这种‘通道’，尤其是从你的角度来看？

I want you to kind of take us into this opening, especially from you know?

而且我确实如此。

And and I am.

我是一个开放心态的怀疑者，但我确实相信。

I I'm an I'm an open minded skeptic, but I do.

我想知道其中的机制。

I want the mechanism.

我想要一个可能的机制。

I want a potential mechanism.

我的科学思维可以接受缺乏可重复性的情况。

My science brain can wrap itself around a lack of reproducibility.

我的科学思维可以应对很多问题，但这里正是我感到好奇的地方。

My science brain can can get around a lot of things, but this is where I'm curious.

我对这个问题没有答案。

And I don't have an answer to this.

这就是为什么我们请你来的原因。

That's why we're having you here.

你的意识整体理论是什么？

You know, what is your kind of larger theory of consciousness?

我们可以说意识是基本的。

You know, we can say that consciousness is fundamental.

很多人并不理解这句话的含义，但请解释一下你的主张，因为说我能获取与已故之人交流的信息，这确实很难让我理解。

A lot of people don't understand what that is, but explain what what you're proposing because the notion that I'm accessing information and communication with people who are dead is a little bit hard to wrap my head around.

对吧？

Right?

宇宙中信息体验的理论是什么？

What is the theory of the experience of information in the universe?

它基于阿卡西记录吗？

Is it based in the Akashic records?

它是否基于某种理论上的量子场？

Is it based in a, you know, in a in a kind of a theoretical quantum field.

你对意识层面实际发生的事情有什么理论？

What is your theory of what's actually happening in the consciousness plane?

我其实会告诉人们，要更好地理解这一点，对我而言，是从学术科学的角度出发，有一本非常棒的书，你可能读过。

I will actually tell people that one way to get a better understanding of this, and for me it was from a academic scientific perspective but it was a book that was wonderful that you have probably read.

《超越寓言》作者是贝尔纳多·卡斯特罗。

It's More Than Allegory by Bernardo Castro.

让我谈谈贝尔纳多在那本书中说的一段话，它真的帮助了我。

Let me just say something that Bernardo said in that book that really helped me.

从这个角度来看，有一种理论认为，意识是无限且无边界的，它就像一个概率场，正是这个场真正创造了我们所谓的意识点——也就是我们所有人，然后这些意识点进入时空领域。

So from this perspective, this theory that there is a consciousness that is infinite and unbound and it's like a probabilistic field that then is what actually creates what we might call points of consciousness, all of us, that then come into a time space realm.

至少我是这样想象的。

That's how I'm at least envisioning it.

他说，任何进入这个时空领域的事物，都必须接受重力、时间、空间的信念。

He said that anything that comes into this time space realm has to take on a belief of gravity, of time, of space around them.

这意味着每一座山、每一只昆虫、每一只鸟、每一个人、每一株植物，都接受了这套信念体系，否则它们就不会存在。

And that means that every mountain, every insect, every bird, every human, every plant has taken on that belief system or they wouldn't be here.

所以植物不会飞上天。

So the plants don't go flying off into the air.

山也不会飞走。

The mountains don't go flying away.

它们在某种程度上，或者在山这种情况下是其原意识层面，已经接受了这些信念。

They have taken on those beliefs at some level of their consciousness or their proto consciousness in the case of a mountain.

真美。

Beautiful.

当你成为一只昆虫时，你会接受另一套信念，使你能够在昆虫的身体中运作。

And so then, we then as you become an insect, you take on another set of beliefs that allows you to function in an insect body.

而我们人类则接受了一套信念，认为我们只有五种感官，仅此而已。

And we humans take on another set of belief that says, we have five senses and that's all that we can use.

我们可以继续列举下去，比如文化信念等等。

And we can go on and on, cultural beliefs, etc.

我们在家庭中行为方式所持有的信念。

Beliefs in the way we act in our family.

我的意思是，简单提一下。

I mean, just a brief aside.

过去我和丈夫去接受婚姻咨询时，咨询师会说：你从父母那里继承了这样的信念——这块海绵只能用于擦台面，那块海绵只能用于洗碗。

I mean, when I would go to couples counseling with my husband in the past, what the counselor would say, You have taken on beliefs from your parents that this sponge can only be used for a countertop sponge and this sponge only for dishes.

你强迫对方接受你的信念。

And you're making that other person go to your beliefs.

这就像在说：不，这并不是现实。

It's like, No, this is not a reality.

这不是真相。

This is not a truth.

所以我喜欢贝尔纳多·卡斯特罗看待这个问题的方式。

And so I love Bernardo Castro's way of looking at this.

所以，关键点在这里。

So you have and so here's the key point.

他说，你如何摆脱一个信念？

He said, how do you get rid of a belief?

你不能仅仅在理智上说我要摆脱它。

You can't just say I'm gonna get rid of it intellectually.

我不能只是说，哦，我要摆脱那个了。

I can't just say, oh, I'm getting rid of that one.

你必须深入到信念之下，像拔出体内一根刺一样，从根部把它挖出来。

You have to go under the belief and literally dig it out like a thorn that's inside of you and pull it out from underneath.

然后你才有可能真正地放下那个信念。

And then you have the chance of actually letting go of that belief.

我觉得这很深刻，因为这样我可以说：好吧，我原本并没有相信通灵。

I think that's profound because then I can say, okay, so I didn't have a belief in mediumship.

我确实一点都不信。

I absolutely didn't.

那么现在我得思考一下，这个信念到底是什么？有没有办法深入到它底下？

Well, now I have to think about what that belief is and is there a way for me to go underneath it?

而就我而言，是通过做研究，保持极度的好奇心，然后亲身经历。

And in my case, it's by doing research and really being very very curious and then having my own experiences.

因为事实上，一旦你的内在感知——我称之为内在感官——对这种互联性开放，你就会开始体验到它。

Because in fact, once your inner senses, I will call them, become open to this interconnection, then you begin to have them.

所以，再好好想想。

And so again, think about it.

如果时间和空间是一种信念体系，那么某些人就能超越时间和空间。

If time and space are a belief system, certain people can go beyond time and space.

我认为，那些具有预知能力的人，以及像伊丽莎白·克罗恩那样经历过濒死体验的人，正是做到了这一点。

And I think that's what those with precognition are able to do and those that have had a near death experience like Elizabeth Krohn are able to do.

不知怎的，我们原本的这种分离状态对他们而言变得不再隔绝，他们能够进入这个超越时间与空间的领域，并获得这些领悟。

Somehow that dissociation that we have has become porous for them and they're able to move into this realm that is actually beyond time and space and have those understandings.

还不错。

It's pretty good.

你很擅长

You're pretty good at

这个。

this.

海绵可以用来做任何你想做的事。

Sponges can be used for anything you want.

我的天，这让我震惊，因为我讨厌他选的海绵以及他使用海绵的方式。

I mean, that's blowing my mind because I hate what sponges he chooses and the way he uses them.

你提到海绵，真是巧了。

It's funny you mentioned sponges.

不过，这正是我和乔纳森经常讨论的话题，也是他在乔纳森的Substack专栏《实用灵性》中反复提及的内容，贯穿了我们生活的方方面面。

This is something, though, that I think Jonathan and I talk about a lot and something that on Jonathan Substack page, practical spirituality, he talks about really as it weaves its way through our whole lives.

你所谈论的，某种程度上是对我们为自己构建的故事的神经学理解。

And what you're talking about, it's kind of a neurological understanding of the stories that we construct about ourselves.

所以我们来到这个世界，无论是因为宇宙构造的本质，还是因为我所拥有的意识以及我在此生中的转世，都是如此。

So we come into this world, whether it's by the nature of the way the universe was constructed, right, for whatever consciousness I have and whatever incarnation I'm in, right, in this lifetime.

对吧？

Right?

就现在的我而言，我带着一套所谓的‘硬件’来到世上，但‘软件’则是由我的父母、我的祖先赋予的，无论那种情感负担、遗传负担、表观遗传负担是什么，都会被加载到这个系统中。

For me as I am now, I come in with a set of, you know, kind of hardware, but then the software is something that is given to me by my parents, my ancestry, like, whatever that load is, that emotional load, that genetic load, that epigenetic load, that is then what gets put into this system.

如果我们把它看作某种模拟，那么这就是目前在我身上运行的程序。

And if we think about it as, you know, kind of a simulation of sorts, right, that's what the that's the program that is running for me right now.

然后我与其他每个人的程序互动，看他们在运行什么。

And then I'm interacting with everyone else's program and what's running for them.

因此，当我们试图与他人建立关系时，我们带着自己所有的故事而来。

So when we try and be in relation with other people, we're coming with all of the stories that we come with.

他们也带着自己所有的故事而来。

They're coming with all the stories that they're coming with.

这个交汇点在哪里？

Where is that intersection?

这也是一个非常美好的、可以敞开心扉的地方。

And what a beautiful place to also open up to.

如果你的关系拥有灵性意识呢？

What if your relationship had a spiritual consciousness?

对。

Right.

如果你的关系能够发展，不仅限于浪漫关系，还包括你与他人的一切互动，你们的分子彼此交融呢？

What if your relationship was able to progress, not just romantic relationships, but the interactions you have with other people is your molecules and their molecules all mixing together.

而且始终存在着另一个层面，只是我们用五感无法触及——当人们对我说‘我不知道我是否相信上帝’时，我会说：‘上帝就在这里。’

And there is this other plane that we're not having access to on a five senses level that's existing all the time you know when people say to me like I don't know if I believe in God, it's like well God is right there.

这就像你是否愿意转向它，这就是我的观点。

It's just like do you want to turn towards it or don't you that's kind of my perspective.

我对这种层面的接触也有同样的感受——它就在那里，但我们知道如何转向它吗？

I feel the same way about this level of of access it's there Do we know how to turn towards it?

我想补充一点，因为我们经常讨论，这里的神经科学家对这些事情怎么说？

And I want to add that thing because we talk about, well, what do neuroscientists here say about these things?

当我研究过相关文献，比如安慰剂效应或能量疗愈之类的，这里有个有趣的现象。

Well, when I have looked at that research on, for example, placebo effects or energetic healing or whatever, here's the interesting thing.

你会发现，当你相信——这里又回到了信念——当你相信安慰剂有效，以为自己正在接受药物治疗时，你的身体就会改变不同的生理参数。

What you find is that when you believe, and again here we get back to belief, when you believe the placebo will work, that you think you could be getting the medication, you then change different physiological parameters of your body.

所以，如果你以为自己在服用止痛药，大脑中负责疼痛的区域实际上会开始减弱，因为你的思维和信念让生理状态发生了转变。

So, if you think you're getting a pain medication, what happens is that the pain areas in your brain actually begin to turn down because your mind, your belief, has allowed your physiology to shift.

我们常谈到基因。

And we think about genetics.

然后我们会发现，哦，原来通过冥想真的可以改变自己的基因。

And then we find that, oh yes, that I can shift my genetics through meditation.

如果我——我觉得在我的书里我们提到过一位先生。

If I, and I think in my book we talk about the Mr.

怀特，他患有淋巴瘤，却坚信这种叫氯倍他索的药物能治愈他。

Wright who had lymphoma and he believed that this particular drug, clobiasin, was going to heal him.

一天或两天内就康复了，十天后就出院了。

Was healed within a day or two and then got out of the hospital in ten days.

但他后来从新闻中听说这种药无效，于是又病倒了。

But then he heard that it didn't work from the news and then he got sick again.

你会想，这种思想、这种信念系统真的非常强大。

And you're thinking, that mind, that belief system is really powerful.

如果我们能以正确的方式利用这一点，真的可以改变我们的生活。

And if we could take advantage of that in the right way, I mean, could really change in our lives.

我还想再补充一点，因为它与能量疗愈有关。

And I want to add one more thing too because it relates to energy healing.

有时候，有人接受能量疗愈师的治疗后，完全康复了。

Sometimes somebody will have an energy healer heal them and they will be totally fine.

然后他们进入了一个充满怀疑的人群中。

And then they move into a skeptical group of people.

他们失去了对所发生事情的信念，问题又回来了。

And they lose their faith in what happened, and their problems come back.

所以我只是说，嘿。

And so I just say, hey.

大脑的力量远超我们的想象。

The mind is a lot more powerful than we think.

好的。

Okay.

所以核心信息是：改变你的生活，结交新朋友，只要一遇到那些让你想起旧朋友的人，直接揍他们一拳然后跑掉。

So the message is change your life, get new friends, and anytime you're around people who remind you of your old friends, punch them in the face and run away.

其实，这种说法在匿名戒酒会中，当人们戒酒时经常能听到。

Well, this is the notion of when people, you know, get sober in Alcoholics Anonymous, you'll often hear this.

是的。

Yeah.

他们被建议：不要再去那些你以前常去的地方。

They're told, don't go to the places you went.

不要接触那些你以前常打交道的人，因为根据我们的了解，成瘾行为周围存在着特定的环境诱因。

Don't talk to the people you talk to because in what we know, there are accessory environments specifically around addiction.

如果你周围有人在抽烟，而你正努力戒烟，这种欲望——当然，人人都懂。

If you're around people who are lighting up and you're trying not to smoke, right, the desire of course, everyone knows this.

想抽烟的欲望会更强烈。

The desire to smoke is more.

你是在说，你可以把这一点应用到你的能量、情绪和心理状态上。

You're saying that you can apply that to your energetic and emotional and psychological state.

这就是为什么人们喜欢和那些充满正能量、积极情绪的人待在一起。

This is why people like to be around people who have high vibrations, good vibrations.

乔纳森说，这就是为什么当你抑郁时，整个屋子都变得压抑。

Jonathan's like, this is why when you're depressed, the whole house is depressed.

我明白了，乔纳森。

I get it, Jonathan.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，这真的太对了。

I mean, that is so true.

但我还想提一下，因为我有个好朋友安妮，当我们谈论这些事情和信念时，她会感到压抑。

And I I think I wanna also mention though because I have a good friend, Anne, that when we talk about these things and beliefs, she gets contracted.

这是因为她说，经常有人得了癌症，别人却说：‘这是你自己的信念造成的。’

That's because she says, So often somebody has cancer and somebody says, Well you caused it because of your beliefs.

在这种情况下，我想说的是，当我们说‘我们的信念创造了现实’时，这句话是有微妙区别的。

And what I try to say in that case is that when we say our beliefs create our reality, that is a nuanced phrase.

它的意思是：是的，我确实对塑造自己的现实有所贡献。

And what it means is that, yes, I do have a contribution to creating my reality.

我们刚才已经讨论过这一点。

We've just talked about that.

但世界上所有的人类、所有意识的节点，都在共同塑造着我们的集体现实。

But all of the human beings, all the points of consciousness this world are also contributing to our joint reality.

我们必须明白，仅凭我一个人的信念，是无法改变我们的政治现状的。

We have to understand I can't change our political situation, just me with my beliefs.

但如果整个世界能够真正转变我们的信念体系，转向相互连接与支持，也许我们就能开始推动改变。

But if the whole world were able to actually shift our belief system toward interconnection and support, maybe we could begin to move things.

这要求太高了。

That's asking a lot.

有趣的是，我们只能接受这是一个共同创造的宇宙。

It's interesting But that we just have to accept that this is a co created universe.

理性主义者纠结的问题是，什么是滑坡效应？

Where the rationalists get hung up is on what is the slippery slope?

我能把这推到多远？

How far can I take this?

我来自一个长期秉持理性与怀疑精神的家庭，我在精神探索过程中始终是一个充满热情的探索者，并始终保持着健康的怀疑态度。

And I come from a long line of rationalists and skeptics, and I experienced my spiritual exploration as a voracious explorer with a very healthy dose of skepticism along the entire way.

我可以谈论深刻的经历、直觉和预知梦，然后又退回来质疑一切。

I can talk about profound experiences and intuition and precognitive dreams, and then I'll fall back and question everything.

那些事情真的发生过吗？

Did any of that happen?

然后我又会再次相信，我在这些状态之间不断波动。

And then I'll believe again, and I I fluctuate between these states.

现在我对信念，尤其是身体的信念，比以往任何时候都更加强烈。

More belief and in in body belief now than ever before.

但我觉得人们开始质疑并希望理解的是：我们看到有些人已经走得太远，住在车里，坚信一切都会好起来，却在现实世界中毫不作为。

But I think what where people, you know, start to to question and wanna have an understanding is like, we see people who have gone off the deep end, who are living in their car believing that, you know, everything is gonna work out, and they're not taking any action in the real world.

那么，你能帮我们描绘一下，我该如何做，才能拓展自己的信念，审视我为自己设定的界限，重新评估生活中各个方面的‘海绵’到底意味着什么？什么是可能的？

So where can you help us paint a picture of, like, how do I do this and and stretch my beliefs and look at questioning the limits that I've created, reevaluating what the sponges are for in all areas of my life, what's possible?

对吧？

Right?

比如，帮我们描绘一下什么是可能的，但又不至于走向极端，认为我不必承担任何责任，钱就会自己寄到门上来。

Like, help us paint a picture of what's possible without going off the deep end to say, I I don't have to take any responsibility, and money's just gonna show up in the mail.

是的。

Yeah.

可能有些人会想，我把一切都交给宇宙，结果却无法养活自己，或者最终……但若有人选择住在车里并且乐意如此，这也没什么不对。

There might be people who are like, I'm gonna leave it up to the universe, and they end up not able to support themselves, or they end up, you know, and there's nothing wrong, like, if people live in their car and they want to.

对吧？

Right?

但乔纳森说的是，很多人觉得我不喜欢我的工作。

But what Jonathan is saying is a lot of people feel like, I don't like my job.

它不能让我感到满足，所以我打算辞职，因为我需要宇宙来供养我，或者我需要追求一种精神连接的生活。

It doesn't fulfill me, so I'm gonna quit it because I need the universe to provide for me, or I need to pursue a life of spiritual connection.

我在企业里做不到这一点，所以我打算放弃我的生活，然后发现上帝并不总是按照我们期望的方式提供帮助，对吧？

I can't do that in a corporate job, so I'm gonna leave my life, and then they find that there's not something God doesn't always provide the way, right, we want God to.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，关于这一点有很多细微差别。

And I think, of course, there are a number of nuances about that.

对我来说，第一点是，当我还是一个只相信客观性和物质世界的唯物主义神经科学家时，我忽略了我自己的体验。

The first for me is that when I was the materialist neuroscientist that only believed in objectivity and the material realm, I left out my experience.

然后我有了这样一种体验，心想：等等，客观性之外还有更多东西。

And then I had this experience that said, wait a minute, there's more than the objectivity.

它不仅仅局限于五种感官。

It's more than the five senses.

因此，当我偶尔与贝尔纳多·卡斯特罗交谈时，我感觉他的分析唯心主义，因为他面对的是唯物主义者，所以非常分析性，他称之为分析哲学，必须是理性的。

And so what I, in fact when I occasionally talk with Bernardo Castro, I feel that his analytic idealism, because he's talking to materialists, is very analytical and he calls it analytic philosophy that has to be rational.

但我说，为什么不能加入他现在所说的大陆哲学，即现象学，也就是经验呢？

But I say, Why can't we add in what he now calls continental philosophy which is phenomenology, which is experience?

为什么不能两者兼得呢？

Why can't we have both?

然后你就可以观察你的经验。

And then you can watch your experience.

你可以说，我的经验永远不会欺骗我，因为它会告诉我此刻的感受。

You can say, My experience will never betray me in the sense that it will tell me what I'm feeling now.

但接着我会运用理智，说：嗯，这种想法和行为对我而言是健康的吗？

But then I bring in the intellect and say, ah, is this a healthy thing for me to think about and do?

这会实现我在宇宙中的目标吗？

Is this going to fulfill my objectives in the universe?

因此，我拥有了一种健康而平衡的组合，我称之为宇宙的阴阳之道。

And so I have a nice healthy combination of what I call the yin and the yang of the universe.

我一直在努力寻找心灵与理智之间的平衡。

And I'm always trying to find that balance between the heart and the mind.

以及真正让我感到满足的方式。

And the ways to actually fulfill me.

事实上，我经常与一位名叫杰布·巴顿的朋友交谈，他认为我们真正需要做的，是始终关注什么能让我们感到满足。

In fact, one person that I talk to a lot, friend named Jeb Barton said that he believes that what we really need to do is always look at what will fulfill us.

在每一个当下，当我们做不同的事情或走向职业生涯的不同阶段时，我们只需问自己：这让我感到满足吗？

And then in each moment as we're doing different things or we're going to different parts of our career, we just ask, is this fulfilling?

所以，如果你认为上帝会为你提供一切，你只需坐在车里，问问自己：这对我有用吗？

So if you think that God's gonna provide for you and you can just be out there in your car and we'll say, has this worked out for me?

这让我感到满足吗？

Is this fulfilling?

但答案是没有。

Well, it hasn't.

也许我该做出改变了。

Maybe I should change.

所以我认为，关键在于不断与自己对话，给自己反馈。

So I think it's having those constant, like, just talking to yourself and saying giving yourself feedback.

好吧，你知道，也许我需要重新找份工作，再买一栋房子，那样我就会感到满足了。

Well, you know, maybe I need to get back into a job and and get a house again and I will be fulfilled.

我的朋友杰布甚至说，物质主义者去关注客观现实没问题，但他们必须问自己：这让我感到满足了吗？

And what my friend Jeb even says is that a materialist is fine for them to go into looking at objective reality, but then they have to ask, is this fulfilling me?

作为一个物质主义者，我发现物质并不能让我满足，于是我开始尝试静下心来，关注自己的内在感受、内心以及与他人的联系。

And I as a materialist found it wasn't fulfilling me and I needed to begin to try to quiet my mind down and pay attention to my inner senses, my heart, my connection with other people.

然后，我找到了更多的满足感。

And then I found a lot more fulfillment.

意识存在于大脑中吗？

Is consciousness in the brain?

人们对此很好奇。

People are curious.

我曾听人形容过，我真的很喜欢这个说法：我们就像一部手机，接收着来自更大意识系统的讯息。

I've heard it described and I really like that we are like a cell phone receiving information across a larger consciousness system.

我们从这里开始，然后根据你的回答探讨集体意识。

Let's start there and then go into collective consciousness depending on your answer.

意识存在于大脑中，存在于我们身体的每一个细胞中，存在于周围的植物中，等等。

Consciousness is in the brain, it's in every cell of our body, it's in the plants around us, etc.

换句话说，万物中都存在意识的成分。

In other words, there is an element of consciousness in everything.

因为我持一种非二元的哲学观点，认为我们每个人的本质都是如此。

Because I have a non dual philosophy that says each one of us has that as our essence.

这意味着我心脏中的所有细胞都在协同合作，使心脏正常运作。

And that means that my cells in my heart all are cooperating together to make the heart function.

每一个细胞中都存在某种感知和行动，帮助身体维持生存。

That there is a certain perception and action going on in every cell that's helping it make this body survive.

所以我说，是的，意识存在于我的大脑中，但并非我们通常所理解的方式。

So saying that, yes consciousness is in my brain but not in the way we think.

我的大脑并没有产生我的觉知。

My brain is not producing my awareness.

这就是区别。

That's the difference.

所以是的，我正是从这个角度出发：作为意识，我决定要在这个物质时空领域中体验。

So yes, so I'm coming from that place of I, as consciousness decided, I wanted to play in this material time space realm.

于是我来到这里，获得了自己的身体，但我的身体每一部分都是有意识和觉知的。

And so I came down here and got myself a body but every part of my body is also conscious and aware.

所以是的，我能感受到自己与他人是分离的，但也存在着一种通常我并未察觉的联系。

So yes, I can feel separate from other people, but there's a connection that is also there that usually I'm not aware of.

我本不想打断，但我们得暂停一下与玛乔丽·沃尔科特博士的对话，因为我们还有很多内容想探讨。

I hate to do it, but we're gonna hit pause on our conversation with doctor Marjorie Wolocott because there is so much more that we want to cover.

在我们与沃尔科特博士对话的第二部分，我们将讨论临终清醒、不同层次的意识状态，濒死体验向我们揭示了意识的根本本质，以及什么是同步性？

In part two of our conversation with doctor Wolocott, we're gonna talk about terminal lucidity, different states of consciousness in terms of levels of consciousness, What do NDEs tell us about the fundamental nature of consciousness as well as what is synchronicity?

它真的存在吗？

Is it a thing?

我们还会谈到心灵感应、能量，以及黑暗能量的危险和如何保护自己。

We also talk about telepathy and energy as well as the dangers of dark energy and how to protect yourself.

我们在第二部分的对话中还有更多内容。

There's so much more in part two of our conversation.

我们非常期待你听到它。

We can't wait for you to hear it.

从我们的分析到我们希望你永远不会经历的那次，下次再见。

And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we will see you next time.

这是比里克的分析。

It's my Bialik's breakdown.

她会为你详细解析。

She's gonna break it down for you.

她拥有

She's got

一个

a

神经科学博士学位，甚至不止一个。

neuroscience PhD or two.

一个是虚构的。

One fictional.

现在她要开始分析了。

And now she's gonna break down.

这是一次剖析。

It's a breakdown.

她要把它拆解清楚。

She's gonna break it down.