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嗨。
Hi.
我是
I'm
米德·比亚利克的崩溃节目由Helix睡眠支持。
Mind Bialik's Breakdown is supported by Helix Sleep.
春天来了，随之而来的还有各种过敏原。
Spring is in the air, and so are all of the allergens that come with it.
我知道我已经开始感受到它们了。
I know I'm starting to feel them already.
春季过敏意味着你需要更多睡眠，但有许多因素会妨碍我们获得良好的夜间休息。
Spring allergens mean you need more sleep, but there are a ton of factors that can prevent us from getting good night's rest.
想想夜间盗汗、背痛，还有当旁边的人翻身时你都能感觉到。
Talk about night sweats, back pain, feeling the person next to you when they roll over.
多年来，我们听到了许多关于Helix的绝佳反馈，当我们得知他们多年前就希望与我们合作时，我们感到无比兴奋。
We can't tell you how excited we were to hear that Helix wanted to partner with us years ago after all of the incredible feedback we'd heard about them over the years.
我已经用了我的Helix床垫大约五年了，睡得一直很不错。
I've had my Helix for about five years now, and I've been sleeping pretty good.
乔纳森和我的孩子们也特别喜欢他们的Helix床垫。
Jonathan and my kids also love their Helix mattresses.
所有这些问题——夜间盗汗、背痛、动作干扰——都得到了显著改善。
And all of those issues, night sweats, back pain, motion transfer, those things are significantly better.
我们强烈推荐你们像我们一样，花不到两分钟完成Helix睡眠测试，找到最适合你的床垫。
We highly recommend taking the Helix Sleep Quiz like we did to find your perfect mattress in under two minutes.
每个人的睡姿都不同，我们相信你一定能找到一款专为你的睡姿和偏好设计的Helix床垫。
Everyone sleeps differently, and we're confident you'll find a Helix mattress model specifically designed for your specific sleep positions and field preferences.
我做了Helix睡眠测试，结果推荐了Midnight床垫，因为我喜欢稍微硬一点的，而且主要侧睡。
I took the Helix Sleep quiz, and I was matched with the Midnight mattress because I like something a little firm, and I mostly sleep on my side.
乔纳森喜欢Twilight款。
Jonathan is a Twilight person.
不过，我们的床垫相比之前的，绝对是巨大的升级。
Our mattresses, though, are an absolute major upgrade from our last ones.
他们的记忆棉层模型能提供最佳的压力缓解，精准贴合身体最需要支撑的部位，是舒适与支撑的完美结合。
Their models with memory foam layers provide optimal pressure relief and cradle your body in the areas that need it most, and it's the perfect combination of comfort and support.
乔纳森非常喜欢他家Helix床垫的降温功能。
Jonathan loves the cooling feature of his Helix mattress.
能防止他在夜间过热。
Keeps him from overheating at night.
前往 helixsleep.com/breakdown 获取全站73折优惠。
Go to helixsleep.com/breakdown for 27% off-site wide.
专为我们的听众——Mayim Bialik 的《Breakdown》节目观众提供。
Exclusive for our listeners of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown.
那就是 helixsleep.com/breakdown，享73折优惠。
That's helixsleep.com/breakdown for 27% off-site wide.
结账后请务必输入我们的节目名称，以便他们知道是我们推荐的。
Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so that they know that we sent you.
helixsleep.com/breakdown。
Helixsleep.com/breakdown.
梅米·比利克。
Mayim Bialik.
我是乔纳森·科恩。
And I'm Jonathan Cohen.
欢迎来到我们与莱文博士对话的第二部分。
And welcome to part two of our conversation with Doctor.
迈克尔·莱文。
Michael Levin.
他是塔夫茨大学的生物学教授，也是艾伦发现中心的主任。
He's a professor of biology at Tufts University and director of the Allen Discovery Center.
他的背景是计算机科学和生物学，他的实验室致力于发育生物物理学、计算机科学和认知科学的交叉领域。
His background's in computer science and biology, and his lab works at the intersection of developmental biophysics, computer science, and cognitive science.
在我们与莱文博士对话的第一部分中，
In part one of our conversation with Doctor.
我们讨论了细胞如何形成集体意识，以及生物电或电生理学如何主导整个系统。
Levin, we talked about how cells create a collective consciousness and how bioelectricity or electrophysiology is running the whole system.
他谈到了他的实验室在无需化疗治疗癌症方面的发现，以及理解世界上存在多种智力和心智能力所带来的意义。
He talks about what his lab has discovered about how we can treat cancer without chemotherapy and the implications of understanding how many different kinds of intelligence and mind abilities there are in the world.
他还将描绘出一幅近未来的生活图景：那时，我们每个人手机上都会有一个应用程序，可以监测我们的器官功能和内在体验。
He's gonna also paint a picture of what life will be like in the near future when each one of us has an app on our phone that can monitor our organ function and our internal experience.
它甚至可能不在我们的手机上。
It might not even be on our phone.
它可能存在于我们眼睛的隐形眼镜里，但我们会请列文博士来详细解释。
It might be in a contact lens in our eye, but we'll let Doctor.
列文博士将在我们对话的第二部分中解释这一切。
Levin explain it all in part two of our conversation.
请确保在Substack上关注我们，以下是与列文博士对话的第二部分。
Make sure to join us over on Substack, and here is part two of our conversation with Doctor.
迈克尔·列文。
Michael Levin.
详细说明一下。
Break it down.
我也非常欣赏你对这些玄乎话题的看法，很多人花了很多时间和精力，有些人甚至说在某些情况下花得太多了，去探寻外星人是否真的存在。
I also really love your, you know, your your take on sort of the woo woo of it all, that many people spend you know, people are spending a lot of their time and energy, some might say too much in certain cases, looking for, are the aliens here?
那绑架事件呢？
And what about abductions?
还有那些所谓的飞船残片呢？
And what about, you know, pieces of, you know, ships?
我甚至都不记得那叫什么了，UFO，对吧？
I don't even what it's called, UFOs, right?
我们能对它们进行分析吗？
Can we analyze them?
我们在这领域已经采访过很多人了。
And, you know, we've spoken to a lot of people in this realm.
但我特别喜欢你的观点，最不可思议的事情其实是——我们存在。
But I love your point that kind of the most phenomenal thing is that we exist.
对吧？
Right?
我们花了这么多时间试图向外寻找如何理解智能。
And we spend so much time trying to look outside for how would we understand intelligence.
我们会是什么样子？
What would we look like?
它们比我们更聪明吗？
And are they more intelligent than us?
人工智能在其中扮演什么角色？
And where does AI come into it?
事实上，这涉及到打破我们对自身存在、意识和主观体验的传统认知，对吧？
And the fact is, it involves a breaking of the mold of how we think about our existence, our consciousness, and our conscious experience, right?
所以当我们谈论，比如，如果外星生命不是碳基的，我们能认出它们吗？
So when we talk about, you know, would we recognize an alien if they were not carbon based?
对吧？
Right?
如果外星生命主要是一台放在桌上的计算机，我们能认出它们吗？
Would we recognize an alien if they were mostly a computer on a desk?
你知道吗，第一次听到这个说法时，我就想，我们为什么要讨论这个？
You know, the first time that was introduced to us, like, I felt like, why are we even talking about this?
如果外星人真的存在，他们可能比我们先进几百万年。
That if aliens exist, they're probably millions of years ahead of us.
谁说他们一定有四条胳膊、两条腿走路，还长着眼球？
Who's to say that they have four arms, walk on two legs, and have eyeballs?
对吧？
Right?
这种观念实际上打破了那些对一个非常严肃话题的过度渲染——即，除了地球之外，其他地方是否存在具有意识的生命。
Just that notion kind of blows apart some of the sort of sensationalized components of a very legitimate conversation about what happens not on this planet that might be mindful, like, literally have a mind.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
现在出现了一个名为多元智能的新兴领域，它涉及基础认知，即探讨：我们已经知道人类能够做到这些事，但这些能力是从何而来的？
And there's an emerging field called diverse intelligence, which really seeks to it has components of basal cognition, which is asking about, okay, we already know in our case that we can do these things.
它们是从哪里来的？
Where did they come from?
在进化过程中，它们是如何逐步发展壮大的？
And how did they scale up during evolution?
所以，这是其中一部分。
So that's like a part of it.
但另一部分是开发工具，用于探测并与那些与我们截然不同、在不同尺度和问题域中运作的极端异质智能进行交流。
But another part of it is really developing tools to detect and then communicate with really radically different minds on completely unlike our own that work in different scales at different problem spaces.
令人惊叹的是，你知道有个叫SETI的项目，对吧？
The amazing thing is, you know there's this thing SETI, right?
地外文明搜寻计划。
The search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
我曾经写过一篇论文，讨论SUTI，S-U-T-I，即非传统地球智能的搜索。
I wrote a paper once talking about SUTI, S U T I, the search for unconventional terrestrial intelligence.
因为如果你开始应用我们已有的、用于与智能体进行沟通的工具，而不假设智能体必须是湿润柔软的、必须由随机突变产生、必须有某种形态限制，
Because if you start to apply the tools that we already have for communicating with intelligence in its general form, if you don't make assumptions that it has to be wet and squishy, it has to have been produced by random mutations, it has to have a break.
如果你放弃所有这些预设，仅仅应用这些工具，你就会发现这些智能无处不在。
You know, if you if you give all that stuff up and you just start applying the tools, you find these things everywhere.
告诉我一个你没注意到的智能生命体在哪儿。
Tell me somewhere there's an intelligent being that I didn't see.
好的。
Okay.
首先，你的身体里就充满了它们，我说的不是微生物组。
Well, for for first of all, your body's full of them, and I don't mean the microbiome.
我的意思是，如果你正确地应用这些方法，
I mean I mean that if you apply right?
我们感受不到彼此的意识。
So we don't feel each other's consciousness.
所以我们使用启发式方法来
So we use heuristics to
也许你不会，迈克尔。
Maybe you don't, Michael.
好的。
Okay.
好吧。
Well, okay.
说得通。
Fair enough.
我在这方面落下了。
I am behind on this.
我无法直接感受到你的意识。
I do not directly feel your consciousness.
这意味着我必须使用启发式方法来解决他心问题。
And that means that I have to use heuristics to solve the problem of other minds.
我们使用四到五个标准来判断：虽然无法直接感知，但我认为你拥有和我类似的思维。
There are four or five criteria that we use to say, Okay, I can't tell directly, but I think you have a mind like I do.
你拥有和我类似的意识。
You have consciousness like I do.
我们就是用这些启发式方法来判断的。
We use heuristics for that.
基于完全相同的原因，包括人们现在用于闭锁综合征患者的新因果涌现指标，来判断是否有人在里面，所有这些理由都表明，你应该认真对待这样一个观点：你身体的其他各种器官也可能拥有思维。
For those exact same reasons, including the new causal emergence metrics that people are using on locked in patients and all of this to figure out if there's somebody in there, For all of those reasons, you should be take extremely seriously the idea that various other organs in your body have a mind as well.
你刚才说的是器官吗？
Did you say organs?
器官。
Organs.
是的。
Yeah.
你的肝脏、皮肤之类的。这时候，人们通常会跟我说：等等，我感觉不到我的肝脏有意识。
Your liver, skin, that kind of Now at this point, people usually say to me, Okay, wait, I don't feel my liver being conscious.
当然，别这样。
Of course, don't.
你也感觉不到我有意识。
You don't feel me being conscious either.
你的左脑会构建一个非常完美的故事，说：看，我才是那个有意识的，因为它拥有语言接口，而我们都觉得这非常有说服力。
And your left hemisphere puts up a very nice sort of story about how, Look, I'm the conscious one here because it has a linguistic interface that we all find very convincing.
但事实上，如果你看看这些其他系统在做什么，它们可能没有语言——尽管这一点尚无定论，目前还没有证据。
But actually, if you look at what these other systems are doing, they may not have language, although the jury's still out on that, there's no evidence yet.
所以，假设它们没有语言，但它们具备了我们已知与意识相关的许多其他特征。
So let's say they don't have language, but they have many of the other things that we already know are associated with being minds.
如果我们对这个问题都如此困惑，那我们该如何找到外星生命呢？
And if we have such a hard time with this, how are we gonna find aliens?
这其实是技术问题的另一面。
It's kind of the other side of a technology question.
你知道吗？我惊讶地发现，全球最流行的AI用途，其实就是把聊天机器人当成朋友、治疗师或倾诉对象。
You know, we were I was shocked to learn that the the most popular usage of AI globally is basically making a chatbot your friend, your therapist, your confidant.
在某些情况下，甚至会对聊天机器人产生浪漫或深刻的情感。
In some cases, even, you know, romantic or deeply emotional feelings, you know, about a chatbot.
我觉得这一点很清楚。
You know, I feel pretty clear.
我有点像技术抗拒者，但我很清楚地认为，我的分析是：那不是朋友，不是治疗师，也不是爱人。
I'm kind of a Luddite, but I feel pretty clear that, you know, my analysis of that is that's not a friend, that's not a therapist, that's not a lover.
上一次我与一个没有需求的人建立关系，是在子宫里的时候。
You know, the last time I was in a relationship with someone who didn't have needs, you know, I was in utero.
从你的角度来看，你能告诉我们关于不同类型的智能，以及我们应当如何开放地承认具有独立意识的实体吗？
What can you tell us just from your perspective about different kinds of intelligence and the openness that you'd like us to have about recognizing intelligence and entities that have their own minds.
我真的不希望把程序的行为拟人化，你知道发生了什么吗？你如何看待人们当前的互动方式？
I really don't want to anthropomorphize a program, you know What's happening, and what do you see happening for the way people are interacting?
首先，我想打破我们区分能力的局限，因为每个人都觉得自己能分辨出谁是真正的朋友，谁只是在假装。
First of all, I wanna I wanna blow up our ability to distinguish because everybody kind of feels like they can tell who's a who's a friend and who's just faking.
我推荐一篇特里·比森写的故事，名叫《他们是由肉组成的》。
Just to say, I recommend a story by Terry Bison called They're Made of Meat.
只有一页，讲的是一群外星人俯瞰地球，完全无法理解我们这些由血肉构成的生命体怎么可能拥有认知能力。
It's one page, it's a bunch of aliens who are looking down on earth and they just cannot fathom how we're supposed to be these cognitive beings that were made of meat.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
好吧，首先第一点。
Okay, so first thing.
其次，想象一下，如果一艘宇宙飞船降落在你家前院，一个轮子驱动的装置缓缓驶出，递给你一首它一路上写好的诗，表达它见到你有多开心，无论怎样，我们都很难弄清楚这里到底发生了什么，因为我们缺乏可靠的标准。
Second thing is, look, if a spaceship lands on your front lawn and this thing on wheels sort of trundles out and hands you a poem that it wrote along the way about how happy it is to see you and whatever, We are going to be hard pressed to figure out what's actually going on here because we do not have good criteria.
我们以为自己有标准，但实际上我们并没有可靠的标准来区分谁是真实的生命体，谁只是在伪装。
We think we do, but we do not have good criteria for who's a real being and who's faking.
最后我想说的是，这也是最奇怪的一点，我们可以花很多时间讨论这个。
And the last thing that I'll say, and this is the weirdest thing, we could spend a lot of time on this.
我们最近刚发布了一些关于这方面的研究，今年还会推出更多内容。
And we have some research recently that we put out on this, and it's gonna be more coming this year.
人们有一种感觉，如果大家都普遍觉得，活着的生物，尤其是我们，无法完全被化学定律所涵盖。
People have this feeling that, if everybody kind of uniformly has this feeling that, okay, living beings, especially us, are not fully encompassed by the laws of chemistry.
我们并不确切知道为什么，当你说‘程序’时，指的是化学的机械规律，这些规律看起来像程序，但我们 somehow 超越了这些，这正是我们能够彼此成为朋友的原因。
We don't exactly know why, the mechanical laws of chemistry, when you say program, I mean, the laws of chemistry look like a program, but we are somehow more than that, which is why we can be friends and so on with each other.
不知道到底发生了什么，但毫无疑问，科学家们对此有一定理解。
Don't know what's going on, but no doubt the scientists kind of have a handle on it.
他们其实并没有掌握其中的奥秘。
They do not have a handle on it.
所以我们比这些更复杂，这正是我们能够成为朋友的原因。
So we are some homework than this, which is why we can be friends.
但在这里，至少存在一个区域，那里只是愚蠢的机器，是算法、计算机之类的东西。
But over here, at least there's this region, which is just dumb machines, and these are algorithms and computers and things like that.
这些事物完全按照计算和物理的规律行事。
And those things do exactly what the laws of computation and physics tell them to do.
我们 somehow 搞了点小动作，我不知道是怎么回事，但 somehow 我们能够成为朋友。
We somehow fudge it, I don't know how, but somehow we can be friends.
但不用担心，因为虽然化学的正式模型无法完美描述我们，但计算和物理的正式模型却能准确描述那些愚蠢的机器。
But no worries, because while the formal models of chemistry don't describe us perfectly, our formal models of computation and physics describe the dumb machine.
所以我们无法与它们成为朋友。
So we cannot be friends with them.
它们只按照计算法则行事。
They only do what the laws of computation say.
我在这里要告诉你们，我们的形式模型都无法完全描述其中任何一个。
I'm here to tell you that our formal models don't describe either one fully.
甚至连最简单的算法也不行。
Not even the simplest algorithms.
我们研究过像冒泡排序这样的排序算法，这类算法人们研究了八十年，只有六行代码，完全确定性。
We studied sorting algorithms like bubble sort and things like this that people have been studying for eighty years, six lines of code, fully deterministic.
但即使是这类算法，也具有意想不到的能力，这些能力A：根本不在算法设计中，B：任何行为科学家都能清楚识别。
Even those kinds of things have unexpected capabilities that are A, nowhere in the algorithm and B, fully recognizable to any behavioral scientist.
因此，这至少告诉我们，即使不走极端，也应当对我们识别谁或什么能成为朋友的能力保持极大的谦逊。
So this tells us that minimally without going too crazy, minimally, it argues for massive humility about our ability to recognize who or what we can actually be friends with.
我认为，在负面错误（漏判）方面犯错，远比在正面错误（误判）方面犯错更糟糕。
And I would say it's far worse to get it wrong on the on on the sort of, false negative side of things than it is on the false positives.
好的。
Okay.
所以我要说一件事，我不知道你有没有被人问过这个问题。
So I'm gonna say something, and I don't know if you've ever been asked about this.
首先，乔纳森有能量疗愈的背景，你知道，我们通常把它藏在背后，因为他从非常理性、同时也非常美妙、直觉的角度来处理这个问题。
I mean, first of all, Jonathan has a background as an energy worker, which, you know, we kind of keep tucked in his back pocket because he comes at it from a very, very, you know, rational and also very beautiful, you know, intuitive place.
我多年来一直找一位中医师进行治疗。
One of the practitioners that I've seen for many years is a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner.
这不仅仅是来自宇宙的直觉，它有一套源远流长、拥有数千年智慧的系统，而且在传统中医或其他数千年历史的传统中，确实有很多我们如今会说‘这显然不准确’的东西。
This is something that is not just intuitive from the universe, there's a course of study that goes back to wisdom that's thousands of years old, and there's plenty of things in, let's say, traditional Chinese medicine or other thousands of years old traditions that we would say, Okay, we know that's not accurate.
这说不通。
It doesn't make sense.
很多很多方面。
Many, many things.
你知道，我们过去曾相信放血疗法能治百病。
You know, we used to believe that, like, leeches would cure everything.
对吧？
Right?
我把这个放一边。
I'm setting that aside.
然而，我们正是以这种科学的方式讨论身体的智能，以及某些器官的智慧。
However, exactly the way that we're having a scientific conversation about the intelligence of the body, about the wisdom of certain organs.
这是为了让那些还不了解的人知道。
This is something just letting everyone who isn't already in the know know.
比如，传统中医就会谈到这一点。
This is something that traditional Chinese medicine, for example, talks about.
就像当你谈到犹太律法时，我们会说，它不是科学法则，它有自己的一套体系。
And in the same way that when you talk about, like, like, Jewish law and we say, like, it's not science law, it's got its own, you know, universe.
传统中医也是如此，它也有自己的一套体系。
Traditional Chinese medicine also, it has its own kind of universe.
事物的表达方式是不同的。
There's a different way that things are spoken about.
但我只是坦诚相告。
But I'm just being honest.
人们认为身体具有智慧。
It is thought that the body has a wisdom.
身体拥有一种集体性的智能，器官系统之间会相互交流，能量会流动——我们知道，这种流动也可能通过多种方式体现，比如氧气在体内输送，沿着特定的经络运行，刺激这些部位可以促进血液或能量流向不同的器官系统。我提出这一点并不是为了挑战你，尽管你看起来挺适合被挑战的。
The body has an intelligence that's also collective and that organ systems do speak to each other and energy flows, which we know could also be oxygen being carried through you know many ways that flows through particular meridians in the body right different places in the body that when stimulated can support blood flow right or energy to different organ systems And I'm not bringing this up to challenge you, although you seem fun to challenge.
我认为我们所讨论的内容之间存在很多共通之处。
I think that there's a lot of confluence here between what we're talking about.
但显而易见，你所走的道路——那些造就了迈克·莱文的精子和卵子——把你带到了今天这个生物学的节点上。
But obviously, the path that you are on, the the the sperm and egg that made Mike Levin led you to this point, you know, in biology.
但你如何与那些几千年来一直在探讨这一话题的传统对话？它们并没有使用我们这样的技术。
But how do you speak to or how do you understand traditions that maybe for thousands of years have been having a dialogue around this but not with the same technology that we do.
是的。
Yeah.
所以没错。
So yes.
而且我觉得，这是一个非常好的观点。
And and I think I think that's a really good point.
所以我要说的是两点。
And so so what I'll say is is two things.
首先，好消息是我们现在有了工具，可以对这些问题进行实证和可检验的回答。
First, the good news is that we now have tools to actually have empirical testable answers to these questions.
换句话说，仅像现代科学那样说‘那东西没有意识’是不够的，你怎么知道？
In other words, it is not enough as most modern science to say, that thing does not have a mind, how do you know?
因为从哲学上讲，这只不过是我的感受而已。
Because philosophically, that's just how I feel.
好吧，这行不通。
Okay, that's no go.
但我们也经历了数千年，那时我们说‘每块石头下都有美丽的灵魂’，你怎么知道？
But also we've had thousands of years where we said, well, there's a beautiful spirit under every rock and how do you know?
也许我们看到了，也许没看到，我不知道，但我们现在不会这么做。科学不是这样做的。
Well, maybe we see them and maybe we don't, I don't know, but we're just gonna Okay, both of those things are not what we're doing in science.
所以好消息是，我们现在确实有了初步的工具，并且正在形成一个新兴领域，你可以真正获得这些问题的答案，能够对一个系统进行分析，判断它内部嵌入了多少以及何种类型的认知，而这些是我们原本无法知晓的。
So the good news is that now we actually have the beginnings of tools and we actually have a growing field where you can actually get answers to these things, where you can actually take a system and say, how much and what kind of cognition is embedded in this thing that we would not otherwise know?
有时你会发现，哇，它的认知程度远超我们的想象。
And sometimes you find out that, woah, it's way more than we thought.
另一些时候你会说，是的，至少我还没聪明到能和它交流。
Other times you say, yeah, well, at the very least, I'm not smart enough to talk to it.
因此，我无法察觉到它。
And so therefore I can't see it.
人们经常给我发邮件说：天啊，整个太阳系会不会就是这样的？但你不能随意下定论，不能光凭嘴说，你必须做实验。
And people email me all the time and say, oh man, so like the whole solar system is like this giant, maybe, but you can't just decide that, you can't just say it, you have to do experiments.
当然，在这个尺度上做实验非常困难，但我想强调的是，所有这些都完全可以被检验——是的，它们是假设，但我们现在确实有了进行严谨验证的工具。
And of course on that scale, it's very hard to do experiments, but that's kind of my point to all of this is that all of these things are absolutely up for testing, yes, it's hypotheses, but we now have the tools to actually do this properly.
我们实验室正在开发的一项工作，例如，是利用各种机器学习工具等方法，真正地与细胞、器官、分子网络等这些事物进行交流。
And one of the things that we are developing in our lab is, for example, methods now using various tools of machine learning and so on to actually talk to, literally talk to cells, organs, molecular networks, all these kinds of things.
通过这些接口，你可以实现信息的双向传递，并从中获取人类可以理解的信息。
Interfaces where you can actually push information back and forth and get a human understandable information out of it.
我认为这就是未来的方向：人工智能和虚拟现实等技术最好的应用场景之一，就是学会与那些我们以前根本不知道其存在的系统进行沟通。
I think that's the future here is that one of the best use cases for AI and VR and those kinds of things is to learn to communicate with systems that we previously just had no idea they were even there.
Mayim Bialik 的解析由 OneSkin 赞助。
Mayim Bialik's Breakdown is supported by OneSkin.
你知道吗，我对于护肤最大的抱怨，一直都是刚开始时感觉太复杂了。
You know, my biggest gripe with skincare is always been on how overwhelming it can feel to get started.
找到真正值得投入大量试错、花费和浪费产品的护肤方案，真的会让人抓狂。
Finding that specific regimen that's worth all the trial and error and cost and wasted products, it can really be maddening.
很多护肤品看起来纸上谈兵很完美，但实际效果却很差。
A lot of skincare looks good on paper, but doesn't really deliver results.
或者更糟糕的是，你被灌输了一种观念：必须用十种不同的产品才能拥有一个有效的护肤流程。
Or even worse, you're sold on the idea that you need 10 different products to have an effective routine.
这就是为什么我手里拿的这款 OneSkin 真正脱颖而出。
That's why OneSkin, which I'm holding right here, really stands out.
他们的产品不靠炒作或花哨的包装。
Their products aren't about hype or fancy packaging.
这是真正的科学。
It is real science.
这个品牌由抗衰老研究人员创立，他们提出一个问题：如果能减缓皮肤衰老过程，而不是仅仅掩盖它，会怎么样？
The brand was founded by longevity researchers who asked what if you could slow down the skin aging process instead of just covering it up.
这项研究催生了OS1，即OneSkin的专有肽成分。
That research led to OS1, OneSkin's proprietary peptide.
这是首个被证实能关闭受损衰老细胞的成分，直接从源头上减缓皮肤衰老。
It's the first ingredient proven to switch off those damaged senescent cells, actually slowing skin aging directly at the source.
这是一项严肃的科学成果，却能轻松融入我的日常护理流程。
This is serious science that fits easily into my existing routine.
每次使用OneSkin时，我都在向皮肤发出明确的信号：修复受损细胞、促进胶原蛋白生成、强化皮肤屏障。
And every time I use one skin, I'm giving my skin a clear signal to repair damaged cells, support collagen, and strengthen the skin barrier.
此外，它们基于严谨的科学与研究，我特别喜欢他们的唇部修复面膜和全身保湿霜。
Also, they're rooted in rigorous science and research, and I love their Lip Restore mask and their full body moisturizer.
这些是我最钟爱的产品。
Those are my favorites.
OneSkin 的 OS-one 肽源自十余年抗衰老研究，经证实可针对衰老的可见迹象，帮助您在当下及未来岁月中焕发肌肤最健康的状态。
Born from over a decade of longevity research, OneSkin's OS-one peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age.
限时优惠：使用代码 BREAK 在 oneskin.co/break 购买，立享 15% 折扣。
For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code break at oneskin.co/break.
购买后，在 oneskin.co 使用代码 BREAK，即可享受 15% 折扣。
That's 15% off oneskin.co with code break after you purchase.
他们可能会问您是从哪里了解到他们的。
They'll ask you where you heard about them.
请支持我们的节目。
Please support our show.
告诉他们是我们推荐您的。
Tell them we sent you.
Mayim Bialik 的 Breakdown 节目由 Odoo 赞助。
Mayim Bialik's Breakdown is supported by Odoo.
我们在 Mayim Bialik 的 Breakdown 节目中讨论的很多内容都关乎一致性，确保您生活中的各种体系真正支持您的真实自我和您所追求的生活。
So much of what we talk about here on Mayim Bialik's Breakdown is about alignment, making sure the systems in your life actually support your authentic self and the life that you're trying to live.
这包括你如何经营你的业务。
That includes how you run your business.
幸运的是，Odoo 能在这段旅程中帮助你。
Luckily, ODDO is here to help you in that journey.
Odoo 是一款一体化的管理软件，专为创业者和中小企业设计，帮助他们专注于真正重要的事情，而不是被繁琐的行政工作压垮。
ODDO is an all in one management software designed to help entrepreneurs and small businesses focus on what actually matters instead of getting buried in admin work.
他们提供一系列应用程序，用于管理客户关系、市场营销、销售点，甚至自定义网站。
They offer a range of applications for managing customer relations, marketing, point of sales, even custom websites.
所有这些功能，加上你的销售、会计、库存和运营，都完全集成在一个简单易用、直观明了的平台上，这就是 Odoo。
All that plus your sales, accounting, inventory, and operations all fully integrated on one simple and very easy to use, but also very intuitive platform with Odoo.
当你业务的某个部分发生变动时，其他所有部分都会自动更新。
When something happens in one part of your business, everything else gets updated automatically.
这样能减少错误、避免重复，并带来更大的清晰度。
Fewer errors, less duplication, and way more clarity is what comes from that.
我们也很喜欢 Odoo 的可扩展性。
We also love that Odoo is scalable.
随着业务增长，你只需添加所需的功能。
As you grow, you just add what you need.
没有臃肿的软件。
No bloated software.
没有不必要的复杂性。
No unnecessary complexity.
邀请你的整个团队。
Invite your whole team.
通过通知和聊天让所有人步调一致，他们的计划中包含了所有应用。
Keep everyone in lockstep with notifications and chat, and their plans include all their apps.
Odoo的价格也很实惠。
Odoo's also affordable.
他们提供多种定价方案。
They offer several pricing plans.
你的第一个应用永久免费，包含无限托管和支援，以及第一年的自定义域名。
Your first app's free for life with unlimited hosting and support included and a custom domain name for the first year.
然后，每月仅需24.90美元，您就可以访问所有可用的应用程序，并且系统会根据您所在地区进行定制，这太棒了。
Then starting at $24.90 per month, you gain access to all available applications, plus it's tailored to where you live, which is amazing.
税务、货币和法规都已内置其中。
Taxes, currency, and regulations are built in.
又为您减轻了一大负担。
Takes another huge thing off your plate.
如果您准备好打造一个真正支持您福祉的事业，可以免费试用Odoo为期15天，或通过访问我们节目说明中的链接预约与他们的专家会面，探讨您的想法。
If you're ready to build a business that actually supports your well-being, you can start a free fifteen day trial with Odoo or book a meeting with one of their experts to explore your ideas by visiting the link in our show notes.
这是一个非常贴心的平台，旨在与您共同成长，而非让您不堪重负。
It's a very thoughtful platform designed to grow with you, not overwhelm you.
请使用我们节目描述中的链接，以获得最佳优惠，并立即开始使用Odoo。
Use our links in the episode description for the best deals possible and get started with Oddoo today.
Mayim Bialik的Breakdown由No CD赞助。
Mayim Bialik's Breakdown is supported by No CD.
您是否曾反复回放自己的对话，试图确认朋友是否暗中讨厌您，或在医生已确认您无恙后，仍花数小时研究轻微的疼痛或不适，因为您的疑虑和恐惧始终挥之不去？
Have you ever found yourself stuck replaying your conversations over and over, trying to feel completely sure that your friend doesn't secretly hate you, or spent hours researching a minor ache or pain even after a doctor said you were fine because your doubts and fears just won't go away?
你可能会惊讶地发现，像这种令人困扰的、不想要的想法反复出现在脑海中，让你觉得必须做些什么来解决它、阻止它，或确保自己百分之百确定，这些都可能是强迫症的迹象。
Well, might be surprised to learn that experiences like that, where a distressing, unwanted thought gets stuck in your mind and you feel like you have to do something to try and solve it, stop it, or feel 100% sure about it, can be a sign of OCD.
强迫症和人们常以为的‘喜欢事物井然有序’完全不一样。
OCD is nothing like the stereotypes about liking things organized.
真正的强迫症是一种严重的情况，可能聚焦于任何事情——你的身份、道德、人际关系，甚至你对现实的感知。
Real OCD is a serious condition that can focus on anything, your identity, your morals, your relationships, your sense of reality.
但让它如此令人瘫痪的原因是，它常常纠缠于你最在乎的事情上。
But what makes it so debilitating is that it often fixates on exactly the things that you care about the most.
我自己也深受强迫症困扰，因此我知道它有多被误解，甚至要弄清楚自己到底怎么了都很难，更不用说找到正确的帮助了。
I've struggled with OCD myself, so I know how misunderstood it is and how hard it can be to even figure out what is going on, let alone get the right kind of help.
这就是为什么我们想向你们介绍NOCD——全球领先的强迫症专业治疗机构。
That's why we want to tell you about NOCD, the world's leading provider of specialized OCD treatment.
他们的所有持证治疗师都接受了深入的专业培训，能够识别并有效治疗强迫症，帮助你掌控症状，重拾生活。
All of their licensed therapists go through extensive specialty training to identify and effectively treat OCD to help you manage it so you can get your life back.
在实时面对面的在线会话中，他们会帮助你重新夺回时间、自信和自由。
In live face to face virtual sessions, they'll help you reclaim your time, confidence, and freedom.
OCD 被超过一亿三千万美国人的保险所覆盖，并提供会话间的支持，让你永远不会独自面对 OCD。
OCD is covered by insurance for over 138,000,000 Americans and includes support between sessions so you never have to face OCD alone.
如果这些描述让你或你所爱的人感同身受，NOCD 可以帮助你。
If any of this sounds like you or someone you love, No CD can help.
请访问 learn.nocd.com/break 预约一次免费的十五分钟咨询，开始你的康复之旅。
Book a free fifteen minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/break.
网址是 learn.nocd.com/break。
That's learn.nocd.com/break.
跟细胞对话听起来像什么？
What does that sound like to speak to cells?
我知道这可能听起来有点奇怪，但我最近在旧金山亚洲艺术博物馆参观了一个展览，它以一种理论性的方式尝试与可能存在于太阳系之外的智能建立联系。
I know this might seem like a little bit of a strange example, but I was recently at the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco and there was an exhibit, an installment, that was sort of a theoretical way to try and be in contact with intelligence that might be outside of this solar system.
展览中使用了55种不同的语言，以防万一，对吧？以防宇宙中存在某种算法，能识别出我们所使用的某种语言——这其实是一个概念艺术作品，其核心问题是：你会如何向其他智能体表达自己？你会怎么说？展览还展示了照片，比如我们希望外星人看到我们怎样的面貌。
And it had 55 different languages being spoken, in case, right, in case there's some algorithm out there that might want to pick up one of the languages that we have and it's you know kind of a conceptual art piece but the notion being what would you say right to some other intelligence how would you say it and the exhibit also featured photos like what would we want aliens to see that we are?
这是一组引人入胜的作品。
And it was a fascinating collection.
你知道的吧？
You know?
纵观历史，你会选择什么？
What would you choose throughout history?
所以在这个例子中，跟细胞对话实际是什么样子的呢？
So for this example, what what does it practically look like, you know, to talk to cells?
它们用什么语言跟你交流？
What language do they speak for you?
你可以说主要是数学。
And you can say mostly math.
这没关系。
That's okay.
不。
No.
嗯，也许是数学，但我认为我们现在使用的标准数学并不特别适合这一点。
Well, it's it it might be math, although I think the standard math we have now is not particularly particularly appropriate for it.
你知道吗，顺便说一句，我一直觉得，如果我们真的在和外星人交流，那么从我们星球向外以光速扩张的一个奇妙事物，就是一整圈《三傻闹剧》的剧集。
You know, as far by the by the way, as far as I always I always thought it was it was amusing that one of the one of the things if we're talking to aliens, one of the things that is expanding at the speed of light from our planet is this incredible sphere of three stooges episodes.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这是从什么时候开始的呢？
So it's, you know, from what?
大概是四十年代吧？
The forties, I guess?
我记不清了。
I I forget.
但你知道，就是这个巨大的、像球体一样的视频集合，外星人接收到的就是这些。
But, you know, just just, you know, this this incredible, like, giant sphere of of of videos, and that's what that's what the aliens are catching at.
乔纳森和我玩一个游戏，我叫它‘外星人现在着陆’。
Jonathan and I have a game that I call the aliens land right now.
当我们遇到尴尬的情况，或者我们在梯子上，有人摔下来的时候，就会用这个说法。
And it's when we're in an awkward situation or we're, like, on a ladder and someone falls.
比如，如果他们现在降落，你知道的，或者像火人节那样的地方。
Like, if they landed right now, you know, or like a local like, burning man.
外星人现在降落了。
Like, aliens land right now.
总之，抱歉。
Anyway, sorry.
你请说。
Go ahead.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，从这些其他视角来看事物是如何呈现的，这确实是个值得观察的点。
It's I mean, that's a good thing to to look at is to see how how things look from from those other perspectives.
看。
Look.
如果你想要和你的肝细胞，或者细胞内的一系列化学通路交流，你不会谈论时事，也不会谈论电影或类似的东西，你会谈论它们关心的事物。
If if you want to if you want to talk to your liver cell or even a collection of chemical pathways inside a cell, you're not going to be talking about current events, you're not going to be talking about movies or any of that, you're going to be talking about the things it cares about.
它们关心的是什么？
What are the things it cares about?
嗯，它一直在导航。
Well, it's navigating all the time.
它在生理、转录以及其他各种状态的空间中导航，以维持你的生命。
It's navigating a space of physiological, transcriptional, other kinds of states to keep you alive.
如果我们能拥有这样的能力，想象一下，现在我们的大部分感官都是朝外的。
If we had the ability to do, like, imagine, okay, right now we have most of our senses kind of face outwards.
想象一下，如果我们天生就能直接感知你的血液化学成分，比如血液中的十种不同参数。
And imagine if we had the inborn, a direct sense of your blood chemistry, let's say 10 different parameters of your blood chemistry.
如果我们能像感知气味和味道一样感知这些，我想我们根本不会怀疑自己体内充满了共生体，对吧？
If we could feel that the way that we smell and taste, I think we would have zero problem recognizing that we're full of symbionts, right?
我们的肝脏、肾脏等等，它们在那个空间中穿梭，如果我们能感知到那个空间，我们就会说：看啊，我体内充满了这些为了维持我生命而不断穿梭的生物。但我们没有这种感知能力，所以看不到。
Our liver, our kidneys, and so on, that traverse that space that we would then feel as a space, we don't because we don't have the sense for it, that we would say, oh, look at this, I'm full of these things that are traversing that space to keep me alive.
我们在这方面会好得多。
We would much be much better at it.
我们正在构建语言接口，让你可以问类似的问题：在这个空间里，你感觉怎么样？
What we are building are language interfaces so that you can ask things like, how are you doing in this space?
答案可能是你的钾水平很差，或者答案可能是已经压力好几天了，我不知道你在做什么，我压力很大。
The answer might be your potassium levels are terrible, or the answer might be there's been stress for days and I don't know what you're doing, I'm stressed out.
或者可能是我的电连接性较低，或者实际上一切都很棒，营养更充足。
Or it might be, the combination of like my electrical connectivity is low, or it might be that actually everything's great, more nutrients.
这些就是我们可能收到的信息类型，而且你或许还能推动某些变化。
These are the sorts of messages that, and you might be able to push things.
你可以说：嘿，我希望你更偏向超极化状态，而你现在太偏向去极化了。
You might be able to say, hey, I'd like you to be more on the hyperpolarized and you're tending towards depolarization too much.
我们知道癌症往往就是在这种状态下开始的，一旦你超极化，这些就是我们希望能够讨论的内容，而我们已经具备了通过光学、电学等手段进行观测的接口。
And we know that's where cancer sort of gets going, that once you hyperpolarize, Like these are the things we want to be able to talk about, and we already have the interfaces to instrumentize them optical and electrical and others.
现在我们需要一个转换层，以便能够进行这样的对话。
Now there needs to be that transduction layer so that we can have that conversation.
我只是想给你一个简单的例子，比如一个荒谬的场景，来展示与外星人交流的界面是什么样子。
I just wanted to give you a quick example, like a silly example of what an interface looks like for talking to aliens.
想象一下，你正坐在一个房间里，准备和一个外星人玩井字棋，好吗？
Just imagine for a second, you're sitting in a room and you're going to play tic tac toe against an alien, okay?
于是你拿些粉笔在地上画线，做出你的走法，你知道井字棋怎么玩，目标是形成直线，对角线也清楚，所以你在下井字棋，而且你们玩得很顺利，很明显外星人理解井字棋。
So you got some chalk, you're drawing lines on the floor and you're making moves and you know what tic tac toe is, want to make straight lines, diagonal is sorted out, okay, so you're doing the tic tac toe and you're having successful games, it's It's obvious the alien understands tic tac toe.
有时候你赢，有时候你输，但很明显他在认真下棋。
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but it's obvious they're playing.
结果发现，这个外星人根本不懂几何，完全没有直线的概念。
Turns out the alien actually doesn't understand geometry at all, has no concept of straight lines.
那他是怎么和你玩井字棋的呢？
How are they playing tic tac toe with you?
在外星人的世界里，他有的只是一个装满台球的盒子。
Well, in the aliens room, okay, what he has is a box of basically like billiard balls.
每个台球上都标着一个数字，他只是挑选那些加起来等于15的数字。
Each of those billiard balls has a number on it, and all he's doing is picking out numbers that total to 15.
换句话说，他只懂得算术，明白吗？
In other words, all he understands is arithmetic, Okay?
他只是挑选那些加起来等于15的球。
And all he's doing is picking out balls that total to 15.
那为什么这能让你们玩井字棋呢？
Why does that allow you guys to play a game of tic tac toe?
因为你们之间有一个叫幻方的东西。
Because in between you, there is this thing called the magic square.
幻方就像数独那样，是一个填满数字的方格，每条对角线的和都是15。
Magic square is like a Sudoku kind of thing where basically it's a square with numbers in it and every diagonal adds up to 15.
你不需要知道那里有个方格。
You don't need to know there's a square.
只要真正连接你们的是这个，你只需要挑选数字使其总和为15，结果从另一端看，这看起来就像一局井字棋。
All you need if if that in fact is is what's connecting you, all you need is to pick numbers to to to total it to 15, and it turns out that that actually looks like a game of tic tac toe from the other end.
所以这里的关键是，你永远不会像那个外星人那样思考。
So the part here that that allows you now you are never going to think like that alien.
明白吗？
Okay?
也许你根本不懂算术。
May maybe you don't know arithmetic at all.
你只知道几何。
All you know is geometry.
也许他根本不懂几何。
Maybe he doesn't understand geometry at all.
你们不会一样，但你们创造了一个小小的共同语境，让你们能够一起进行有意义的活动。
You're not going to be the same, but but what you've created is that one little little context where you guys can share a meaningful activity together.
这就是两个人如何学会相爱，并尝试在同一个空间中相处的方式。
This is how two humans can learn to love each other and try and function in the same space.
这是我和梅姆在这个播客中的对话。
This is Mayim and I on this podcast.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们正在努力创造这样的环境，以便我们能与其他类型的系统拥有这种体验。
So so that's what we're trying to create so that so that we can have that experience with with other kinds of systems.
但如果我暂时进入科幻领域，我想象的是，人体可以有一个仪表盘，只需一眼，你就能看出机油不足，但想象一下，你的各个器官系统还有更多变量可以查看——等等，这个需要补充一点，那个需要微调一下，你能获得的数据远超任何血液检测所能提供的。
But if I go sci fi for a second, what I'm imagining is that the body could have a dashboard, and at a quick glance, you could see how your oil is low, but imagine many more variables across your organ systems and you can check, wait a second, this needs a little top up, this needs a little adjustment, and you can have far more data than you could ever have from blood tests.
你所描述的实际上是一种叫做功能医学的医学领域，他们声称，只要拥有足够多的临床诊断标准，就能把碎掉的汉普蒂重新拼合起来。
What you're describing is actually a field of medicine called functional medicine, where what they purport is that with the right number of clinical diagnostic criteria, they can put Humpty back together.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
但他们没有那种可视化功能，而且他们目前拥有的数据远远达不到我们所讨论的迈克尔正在推进的工作水平。
But they don't have any of the visualization and the data that they currently have is not even close to what we're talking about in terms of the work that Michael's approaching.
所以其中一部分是，但我认为我们可以做得更好，想想神经解码。
So part of it is, but I think we can do much better than that, think about neural decoding.
也就是说，我们可以从大脑中获取读数。
So the idea is that we can take readings from the brain.
如果我们知道我们在做什么，就能解码记忆、目标、诸如此类的东西，对吧？
If we knew what we were doing, we would then be able to decode the memories, the goals, the blah blah blah, right?
这些都基本编码在电生理活动中。
That are basically encoded in this electrophysiological activity.
我们已经对细胞、组织、胚胎、肿瘤以及其他所有东西都做过这类研究。
So we've been doing that for cells and tissues and embryos and tumors and everything else.
这是一部分。
That's part of it.
literally 问一个问题：在大脑出现之前，身体在想什么？
Literally asking the question, what does the body think about before there's a brain?
答案是，它在想自己的形态，字面意义上的。
Well, answer is it thinks about its shape, quite literally.
它会回忆并处理关于事物应有形态的记忆，并试图实现它，等等。
It recalls and processes memories about what shape things should be and tries to execute on that and so on.
最终，我想到的是，未来你会有各种生物监测设备，不管怎样，但你的手机上，别再喊‘嘿，Siri’了，而是直接喊‘嘿，肝脏’。
And ultimately what I'm thinking of is down the line, you'll have various biometrics devices, whatever, but on your phone, forget, Hey Siri, it's gonna be, Hey liver.
展开剩余字幕（还有 477 条）
你会说：嘿，肝脏，为什么我今天感觉这么糟？
And you're gonna say, Hey liver, why do I feel like crap today?
答案可能是：我刚和你的冰箱聊过，知道你吃了什么，我的钾水平不对，我不开心，而你真正需要的是一个能将你关心的事物翻译成这些系统所关心事物的接口。
And the answer might be, Well, I've talked to your fridge and I know what you've been eating and my potassium levels are not right and I'm not happy and this is what what you actually want is a way to have that interface that's going to translate from the things you care about into the things that these systems care about.
我们能谈谈这个接口离现实还有多远吗？比如，我能在手机上和我的肝脏以及其他器官对话，而不是对Siri说话？
Can we talk about how far away this interface is that I can be talking to my liver and my other organs on my phone instead of Siri?
我的意思是，如果你要估算一下的话？
Like, if you had to ballpark?
我同意。
I okay.
我的意思是，像肢体再生这类事情，人们经常问的问题，我没法给出确切的年份，但离实现已经不远了。
Well, I mean, for this kind of stuff, like limb regeneration, all the things that people ask, I I I can't, give you exact dates, like exact years because but it isn't it isn't far off.
换句话说，我们已经在实验室里做出了它的桌面版原型。
In other words, we are creating a tabletop version of it in the lab.
之后，就全是工程问题了：让它更小、更便宜，集成到手机里，连接像葡萄糖监测仪这类人们已经拥有的传感器。
Then after that, it's all engineering problems, making it smaller, cheaper, putting it in your phone, sticking to like, you know, sensors, which people already have glucose monitors and all this kind of stuff.
在我们有生之年，我会生活在属于自己的《杰森一家》式的身体里吗？
Within our lifetime, will I be living in the Jetsons of my body?
是的，我觉得是的。
I I yes.
我觉得是的。
I think so.
是的。
Yes.
我觉得是的。
I think so.
我的意思是，我们确实在这个领域有一些项目，有为期一年、两年、三年的资助，专门用于实现这些技术。
I mean, we, you know, we we we have we have things on this in this space that we have a horizon of one year, two year, three year grants that are designed to implement some of this stuff.
你得赶紧加快进度了。
You better hustle up.
赶紧加快进度吧。
Better hustle up.
这当然是肯定的。
Well, that's that's for sure.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这当然是肯定的。
That's for sure.
我有两个问题。
I have two questions.
第一个是关于创伤的。
The first is about trauma.
对吧？
Right?
身体储存了什么，又在记录什么评分，对吧？
And what cells hold and what score is the body keeping, right?
正如我们在创伤领域所听到的，关于范德科尔，身体记录评分这一概念是加博尔特职业生涯的基础，对吧。
As we've heard in the field of trauma, right, with Vessel van der Koch, the notion of the body keeps the score, Gabbormate is based a career, right, on this notion.
我很好奇你对创伤的看法，尤其是从细胞层面的角度。
I'm curious what your take on trauma is, especially from a cellular perspective.
有趣的是，我收到了许多从事不同类型创伤治疗的人的联系。
Interestingly, I've had a lot of outreach from people who work with trauma of different types.
我可以这么说，但需要说明的是，我不是一名临床医生，所以我不确定这些在医学中究竟会如何发展，但我可以分享一些想法。
Here's what I can say, again, with the caveat that I'm not a human medical doctor, so I don't know exactly how all this is going play out in medicine, I will give you some thoughts.
首先，我们知道非常重要的调控状态是非局部的。
First of all, we know that very important regulatory states are non local.
我的意思是，当我把一个致癌基因植入身体某个特定位置时，它是否形成肿瘤，取决于我在身体另一端诱导的生物电状态。
What I mean by that is when I put an oncogene in a particular location in the body of that temple, whether or not it becomes a tumor, depends on a bioelectrical state I can induce on the opposite side of the body.
好的。
Okay.
非常遥远，不是局部的。
Far far away, not not local.
所以这是第一点。
So that's the first thing.
先天缺陷也是如此。
Same thing for birth defects.
如果我想修复一个先天缺陷，我可以在身体的其他部位进行干预。
If I wanna fix if I wanna repair a birth defect, I can do it from a from a location elsewhere in the body.
因此，我们首先知道的是，这类现象并不局限于它们发生的具体位置。
So the first thing we know is that, that that these kinds of things are not not local to the to the place where they occur.
你提出这一点，是因为我们接下来要讨论的是在时间上相隔遥远、也可能在身体上位于不同部位的事件。
So you're making this point because we're gonna be talking about events that happened far away temporally and also possibly different places somatically.
对吗？
Correct?
是的。
Yes.
我正在逐步引出这个观点：要讨论创伤以及它对身体的影响，我们必须思考信息如何在身体内、在不同层面之间传播。
I'm getting I'm getting to the the the the idea that, look, in order to talk about the trauma and what happens to the body, we have to think about how information propagates across the body, across levels.
我们还知道，信息，包括行为信息，会在活体组织中传递。
So the other thing we know is that information, including behavioral information, moves across living tissue.
这里有一个简单的例子。
Here's one simple example.
涡虫可以再生身体的任何部分，而且它们很聪明，你可以训练它们。
Flatworms can regenerate any part of their body and they're smart, you can train them.
事实上，早在20世纪60年代，麦康奈尔就发现了这一点，而我们在2013年用现代技术再次验证了：如果你训练这些涡虫，它们是有中心大脑的。
It happens that, and this was discovered in the 60s by this guy, McConnell, and then we showed it with modern tools in 2013, that if take these flatworms and you train them on something, they have a centralized brain.
你知道，你把它们的头，包括大脑，切掉。
You know, you you cut off their head, including the brain.
尾巴会在那里一动不动地待上大约八天。
The tail will sit there doing nothing for about eight days.
然后它会从头开始重新长出一个全新的大脑，而这些动物仍然记得原来的训练。
It then grows back a brand new brain from scratch, and those animals still remember the original training.
这太疯狂了。
That's nuts.
是的
Yeah.
太疯狂了。
That's nuts.
你能再说一遍吗？
So can you say that again?
只是为了确保大家都理解。
Just to make sure everyone is understanding.
你有一条蠕虫，它看起来就像一条普通的蠕虫。
You've got a worm, and it just looks like a worm.
它有那种小三角形的头部。
It's got the kind with the little triangle.
它有一个三角形的头，但和人们想象中的蚯蚓不一样。
It's a triangle head, but but it's different than people might be thinking of an earthworm.
涡虫与我们的直接祖先相似。
Planaria are similar to our direct ancestors.
它们是真正的两侧对称动物。
They're true bilaterians.
它们拥有所有相同的神经递质。
They have all the same neurotransmitters.
它们有集中的大脑、两侧对称性，以及两个脑叶。
They have a centralized brain, bilateral symmetry, two lobes.
如果你抓一条蠕虫并训练它——我可以告诉你我们是怎么训练的，这整个过程很复杂——然后把它们的头切掉，只留下尾巴。
If you take a worm and you train it, and I can tell you how we train them, it's a whole thing, but then you cut off their heads and leave the tail.
尾巴会留在原地，最终会长出一个新的头，这本身就已经非常神奇了，但当它长出新头后，如果你重新测试这些动物，你会发现它们仍然记得之前的训练。
The tail will sit there, it will eventually regrow a new head, that's a whole amazing thing in and of itself, but it will regrow a new head and those animals, then if you retest them, you find evidence that they remember the original training.
这意味着，即使不涉及信息存储在哪里的问题——那又是另一个话题——可以肯定的是，这些信息在新大脑发育过程中被重新印刻了。
What that means is, without even touching the question of where is the information, that's a whole other question, what it for sure means is that information is now imprinted onto the new brain as the new brain develops.
没有大脑就没有行为，所以我们已经知道信息可以这样在组织间转移。
There's no behavior without the brain, So we already know that information can move across tissues like that.
在出生缺陷、癌症和再生的情况下，信息都会从大脑转移到其他组织。
It moves across tissues in the cases of birth defects, cancer, regeneration, it moves across from the brain elsewhere.
还有另一个关键线索，然后你就能明白这一切如何影响这个问题。
One other piece of the puzzle, and then you'll see how all this affects the question.
那些涡虫，如果你把它们切成碎片，每一块都能长出一个完整的、带一个头和一个尾的小蠕虫。
Those planaria, if you cut them into pieces, every piece grows a perfect little worm with one head and one tail.
你可能会问自己，它怎么知道自己应该长几个头？
And you might ask yourself, how does it know how many heads I'm supposed to have?
如果你用两刀切开，比如切出头、尾和中间部分，取中间那段，它两端都有伤口，它怎么知道哪一端该长头、哪一端该长尾？
If you cut it in if you cut it through you know, with two cuts so that the head, the tail, and then the middle, you take the middle, it has two wounds, one on each side, how does it know that one of them gets a head and the other one gets a tail?
通常人们会说，当然是基因组，但我们知道基因组编码的是蛋白质，它们并不会告诉你哪一边该是哪一边。
And so people typically say, why the genome, of course, but we know the genomes encode proteins, they don't tell you which side is going to be which.
所以我们提出了一个问题：它是怎么知道的？
And so we asked the question, how does it know?
我们发现了一种生物电模式，也就是一种形态发生记忆，它指示你应该长一个头。
We found a bioelectrical pattern, AKA a morphogenetic memory that says you should have one head.
那我们做了什么？
And what did we do?
我们重新编写了这个模式，并使用离子通道调节药物将其改为：不，你应该有两个头。
We rewrote that pattern and we changed it using ion channel modifying drugs to say, no, you should have two heads.
当你这么做的时候，猜猜这些碎片会变成什么？
And when you do that, guess what the pieces make?
我可以发给你，如果你想在节目中展示的话。
And I could I'll send you if you wanna put it up with the show.
我会很喜欢的。
Will love it.
我会发一些视频给你。
I'll send you some videos.
我有一些很漂亮的视频。
I have beautiful videos.
当然。
Absolutely.
的
Of
两个头的？你刚发了一条关于这个的推文吗？
of two headed Did you just tweet one?
配上音乐了吗？
Set to music?
哦，当然。
Oh, sure.
我当然配了音乐。
I I put music, of course.
谁想猜猜列文博士给他的双头蠕虫视频配了什么音乐？
Who would like to guess what music doctor Levin sets to his worm with two heads video?
我们已经要求了。
We asked for it.
播放视频。
Roll the tape.
《米娜·比亚利克的崩溃》由Superpower赞助。
Mind Bialik's Breakdown is supported by Superpower.
我想我们都有过这样的经历：看完医生后，感觉根本没有从这次就诊中获得任何有用的信息。
I think we can all relate to the feeling of leaving a doctor's office, feeling like we didn't really get anything useful out of that experience.
也许医生只是说你没事，或者让你多喝水，但并没有提供真正的数据或具体的应对方案。
Maybe they just said you're fine or told you to drink more water, but there's no, like, real data or game plan.
这种情况我遇到过很多次，尤其是我开始进入围绝经期的时候。
This has happened to me a lot, especially when I started my perimenopause journey.
这就是为什么我们对Superpower所做的事情如此着迷。
That's why we're so fascinated by what superpower is doing.
他们可以派持证专业人员上门服务，或者你可以前往附近的实验室。
They send a licensed professional to your home or you can visit a nearby lab.
只需一次简单的抽血，就能检测超过100项生物标志物，远超常规检查，从而真正了解你的身体状况。
It's one simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers, way more than what you usually get, and it unlocks a real understanding of your body.
他们的应用程序提供关于你的心脏、肝脏、甲状腺、荷尔蒙、新陈代谢、维生素和矿物质水平，甚至环境毒素的详细信息。
Their app includes detailed information on your heart, liver, thyroid, your hormones, your metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, and even environmental toxins.
从疾病预防到缓解令人烦恼的脑雾，或是优化你的健身效果，Superpower都是目前最全面、最先进的系统。
From disease prevention to treating that annoying brain fog or simply optimizing your gym game, Superpower is the most comprehensive and advanced system out there.
我之前一直对不断猜测或在网上阅读各种关于下一步该做什么的健康文章感到厌倦，但Superpower基于个人检测结果提供的可执行健康计划彻底改变了我们的状况。
I had been so tired of constantly guessing or reading random articles online about what I should do next for health, But Superpower's actionable health plan based on personal results has been a game changer for us.
此外，还能随时获得临床团队解答问题。
Plus, have an on demand clinician team to answer questions.
补充剂的处方建议可以直接通过Superpower购买，你无需再去其他地方。
Supplemental prescription suggestions can be directly bought through Superpower, you don't have to go anywhere else.
他们还提供营养指导、生活方式建议、行为调整方案，甚至还能告诉你真实的生物年龄，并可长期追踪。
They also offer nutritional guidance, tips for lifestyle, behavioral adjustment, and you even get your true biological age that you can track over time.
猜猜怎么着？
Guess what?
我已经3000岁了。
I'm 3,000 years old.
Superpower以前售价499美元，但现在全套服务只需199美元，比市场上任何其他产品都实惠得多。
Superpower used to cost $499 but right now it's just 199 for the full experience, which is much more affordable than anything else out there.
让今年成为你不再盲目猜测健康状况的一年，选择Superpower。
Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with Superpower.
Superpower 不仅将价格降至仅 199 美元，而且在限时内，我们的听众使用代码 break 还可再减 20 美元。
Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break.
前往 superpower.com。
Head to superpower.com.
结账时使用代码 break，即可享受 20 美元折扣。
Use code break at checkout for $20 off your membership.
注册后，他们会询问你是如何了解到他们的。
After you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them.
请务必提到这个播客，以支持本节目。
Make sure to mention this podcast to support the show.
Mayim BialikBreakdown 由 Biooptimizers 赞助。
Mayim BialikBreakdown is supported by Biooptimizers.
你最近生活怎么样？
How's your life been lately?
感觉像是永无止境的奔波，不断平衡各种责任，待办事项清单永远做不完。
Feels like it's a never ending hustle, constant juggling of responsibilities, the endless to do lists.
也许这只是我的感觉，但我总觉得不止我这样。
Maybe it's just me, but I have a feeling it's not.
这种感觉可能让人不堪重负，而我还没说这些对整体健康、睡眠、生产力和免疫功能的影响呢。
It can feel overwhelming, and I'm not even talking about how any of that affects overall well-being, sleep, productivity, immune function.
压力会悄然渗透进你的生活，久而久之，会增加对关键营养素的需求，比如镁——这是一种身体依赖的重要矿物质。
Stress has this way of slowly creeping into your life, and over time, it can place extra demands on key nutrients, including magnesium, which is a vital mineral that your body depends on.
这常被称为压力与镁的恶性循环。
It's often called the vicious stress magnesium cycle.
你听说过这个吗？
Have you heard about it?
简单来说，压力会增加。
In simple terms, stress increases.
你的身体消耗更多镁，睡眠更难获得，精力下降，压力感更强，而这又进一步增加了身体对镁的需求。
Your body uses more magnesium, sleeps harder to come by, your energy dips, stress feels higher, and that increases your body's demand for magnesium even more.
但听好了。
But listen up.
我们发现了一个改变游戏规则的产品。
We found a game changer.
镁元素的突破性进展。
Magnesium breakthrough.
我手里拿的就是来自BioOptimizers的这款产品。
I'm holding it right here from biooptimizers.
镁元素突破含有七种镁成分，专为促进放松、肌肉舒适、神经系统平衡和健康睡眠而配制。
Magnesium breakthrough contains seven forms of magnesium formulated to support relaxation, muscle comfort, nervous system balance, and healthy sleep.
我们经常服用。
We take it on the regular.
它真的非常有帮助。
It's been super helpful.
如果压力让你疲惫不堪，这款产品值得一试。
If stress is wearing you down, this could be worth trying.
不妨试试看。
Give it a shot.
你没有任何损失。
You have nothing to lose.
BuyOptimizers 对他们的产品充满信心。
BuyOptimizers is so confident in their products.
他们提供无风险的365天全额退款保证。
They offer a risk free three hundred sixty five day money back guarantee.
为了享受独家优惠，请访问 buyoptimizers.com/breaker。
For an exclusive offer, go to buyoptimizers.com/breaker.
使用我们的专属代码，输入 breaker 即可享受15%折扣。
Use our exclusive code, that's breaker for 15% off.
如果你订阅，不仅能享受超值折扣和免费赠品，还能确保每月的供应不断货。
And if you subscribe, not only will you get amazing discounts and free gifts, you'll make sure that your monthly supply is guaranteed.
不要错过改善健康和生活的机会。
Do not miss an opportunity to improve your well-being and life.
网址是 buyoptimizers.com/breaker。
That's buyoptimizers.com/breaker.
但有趣的是，这些蠕虫在基因上没有任何问题。
But the interesting thing is that those worms, there is nothing genetically wrong with them.
我们从未接触过它们的基因组。
We never touched the genome.
事实上，当它们把自己撕成两半并再生时——这是它们喜欢的繁殖方式——如果我把它们扔进查尔斯河（我不会真的这么做，但假如我这么做了），科学家们会过来采集一些样本，然后说：‘哇，一个物种形成事件！’
In fact fact, when they rip themselves in half and regenerate, which is how they like to reproduce, if I were to toss these into the Charles River here, I'm not going to do that, but if I did, then scientists would come along and scoop up some samples and say, oh, cool, a speciation event.
我们有一些单头的蠕虫，也有一些双头的蠕虫，让我们来测序它们的基因组，看看发生了什么。
We have some one headed worms, we have some two headed worms, let's sequence the genome and see what happened.
猜猜怎么样？
And guess what?
它们的基因组完全相同。
The genomes are identical.
基因组里什么都没有，因为信息并不存储在那里。
There's nothing in the genome because that is not where the information is.
信息并不是像魔法小精灵一样飘浮在虚空中。
The information's not like floating with magic fairies in the ether.
你能给我们一个最简单的解释，说明这些信息到底在哪里吗？
Can you give us the most simple explanation of where that information is?
当然可以。
Sure.
当然可以。
Sure.
顺便说一句，我们永远不能排除ether里有魔法小精灵的可能性。
And and by the way, we can never rule out magic fairies in the ether.
对吧？
Right?
我们是科学家。
We're we're scientists.
不管怎样，但这个
Either way but this
这才是我心目中的科学家。
This is my type of scientist.
说吧。
Go ahead.
对。
Right.
信息就在这里。
Here here's here's where the information is.
我们知道它在哪里，而且我们知道它在哪里，是因为我们能够重写它。
We we know where it is, and and you know we know where it is because we were able to rewrite it.
如果它在我们不知道的地方，我们就无法重写它。
If it was somewhere that we didn't know where it was, we wouldn't be able to rewrite it.
信息是一种稳定的电模式，存在于组织中，细胞会根据这种模式判断应该长出多少个头。
The information is, and I could show you videos and pictures of this, is in a stable electrical pattern that sits within the tissue that the cells interpret as how many heads should I make?
这实际上是记忆的一种编码形式，存在于大脑的记忆组件——电模式中，我们可以看到它并改变它；当我们以可预测的方式改变它时，就能控制头的数量。
It is literally a memory encoded in one of the components of memory in the brain, which is electrical patterns, and we can see it and we can change it, and when we change it in ways that we can predict what's going to happen, it controls the number of heads.
顺便说一句，如果这还不够奇怪的话，我们还能改变它们长出的头的物种类型。
By the way, if that's not weird enough, we can also change the type of species head that they make.
换句话说，我们可以用同一条蠕虫，让它长出属于不同物种的头，这些物种之间相隔一亿到一亿五千万年的进化距离，而且完全不触碰DNA。
In other words, we can take the same worm and have it make heads that belong to different species, 100 to one hundred and fifty million years evolutionary distance, again, without touching the DNA.
我们已经知道，我们手头就有这样的设备——你和我正坐在一个设备上，它无需改动硬件，就能向内存中输入不同的信息模式，从而执行不同的功能。
We already know, we have devices, you and I are sitting on a device that without touching the hardware, you can put different information patterns into the into the RAM, and it will do different things.
对吧？
Right?
它不会长出第二台电脑，但没错。
It won't grow a second computer, but yes.
回到我这边。
Back to me.
如果你去日本参加人工生命会议，你会看到一些计算机确实会进行复制之类的行为。
If you go to the artificial life conference in Japan, you will see computers that that do, you know, make copies and and things like that.
这是否意味着我们正在迈向理解人类如何再生手指、四肢和器官的道路？
Does this mean that we are on the path to understanding how humans can regrow fingers, limbs, organs?
我确实希望如此。
I sure hope so.
这就是为什么我必须在这里披露，埃德，因为戴夫·卡普兰和我共同创办了一家名为Morphaceuticals的子公司，其目标正是再生肢体。
This is what, Ed, why I have to do a disclosure here because Dave Kaplan and I have a spin off company called Morphaceuticals, which whose goal is in fact to regenerate limbs.
我们正在哺乳动物身上研究这个问题。
We're we're working on it in mammals.
我们在青蛙身上已经解决了这个问题。
We solved it in frog.
几年前我们就已经展示了如何在青蛙身上实现这一过程。
We've shown several years back how to get it to happen in frog.
我们现在正尝试在哺乳动物身上做同样的事。
We're now trying it in mammals.
我确实希望如此。
Certainly hope so.
我认为，你看，我们已经有一种大型成年哺乳动物能够再生骨骼、血管和神经，那就是鹿。
And I think, look, we already have a large adult mammal that regrows bone vasculature innervation, and those are deer.
因此，鹿每年都会再生鹿角，每天新生骨组织达一点五厘米。
So deer regrow antlers every year, a centimeter and a half of new bone growth per day.
好的。
Okay.
惊人的骨骼生长、神经支配和皮肤血管再生。
Crazy amounts of bone growth, innervation, skin vasculature.
这并不意味着哺乳动物完全不可能做到这一点。
It's not like mammals can't possibly do this.
它们目前没有这样做，但我认为我们可以激活这种能力。
They they don't, but I think we can turn it on.
这正是我们正在研究的方向。
That's absolutely something we're working on.
所以，答案是肯定的。
So yes, the answer is yes.
让我们先回到这个再生问题，然后再谈创伤。
Let's circle back to that and go to trauma, but circle back to this regrowth.
当然。
Sure.
关于创伤，想想这些蠕虫经历了什么。
The trauma thing, so think about what happened to these worms.
我们的做法是让它们暴露在一种特定化学物质中，时间不超过三到六小时，这对它们来说是一种生理体验。
The way we do it is we expose them for no more than three to six hours of a particular chemical that is basically a physiological experience for them.
我们没有触碰它们的DNA，没有做任何改变，也没有注入干细胞、支架或其他任何东西。
We don't touch the DNA, we don't change this, we don't put in stem cells or scaffolds or any of that stuff.
我们只是让它们浸泡三到六小时，然后就结束了。
We just give them a three to six hour soak, and then that's it.
接下来的九到十天里，它们会再生出两个头。
And then for the next nine to ten days, they regrow into two heads.
未来，如果你把这种双头动物切成碎片，它会持续不断地生成双头动物，据我们所知，会一直如此。
And in the future, if you cut the two headed animal into chunks, it will keep making two headed animals forever, as far as we can tell.
哇哦。
Oh wow.
尽管它们的基因组是正常的，是的，是的，尽管它们的正常基因组。
Despite their normal, yeah, yeah, despite their normal genome.
所以想想关于记录创伤这件事。
So think about Talk about keeping the score.
三到六小时的体验，一种生理上的体验，永久地改变了你的身体结构，形成了新的大脑、不同的身体轴线、全新的身体构型、新的行为，一切都不同了。
A three to six hour experience, a physiological experience has permanently changed your body structure with a new brain, a different, body axis of a new different body plan, new behaviors, everything is different.
对吧？
Right?
所以你看，身体在这种情境下绝对能够记录创伤。
So I mean, there you go, the body can absolutely keep the score in these kinds of contexts.
这种机制在人类身上如何体现，我不做推测，但如果人类竟然能逃脱这种非常基本的生物机制，我会感到震惊和难以置信。
How that plays out in humans, I'm not speculating on, but I would be shocked and astounded if somehow humans managed to escape this very fundamental biological mechanism.
这解释得实在太精彩了。
That's so it's incredibly incredibly explained.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这太不可思议了，这让我想知道，是否可以利用一些为癌症开发的相同工具，将其重新连接到系统的更大目标上，也许这些目标也可以被重新定义。
It's incredible, and it leads me to wonder if you can use some of the same tools being developed for cancer to reconnect it to the larger goals of the system if that can also be rewritten in a way.
你是说在身体内部，还是身体之间？
Do you mean within the body or do you mean between bodies?
我的意思是，在身体内部，如果身体经历了某种创伤，导致某部分的功能或参与度减弱，我们能否重新激活它，使其具有更强的电学意义？
I mean, in the body itself, if the body has experienced and we can show evidence that for some reason a traumatic effect has weakened the participation or function of that part, can we reactivate it to be more electrically significant?
是的。
Yeah.
我们现在正在研究这个。
We're working on that now.
特别是，我们正在研究这个。
And in particular, we're working on it.
我并不是在使用创伤模型，而是在尝试将其应用于衰老过程。
I I don't have a we're not using a model of trauma, but we are trying to do it in aging.
其中一个问题是，好吧。
One of the issues that well, okay.
几年前，我们发现，无论是由于接触致畸物（如尼古丁、酒精等有害物质），还是由于基因突变，某些出生缺陷都可以通过强化正确的生物电状态来修复。
So some years back we showed that if due to either exposure to teratogens, so nicotine, alcoholic, nasty kinds of teratogens, or due to genetic mutations, certain birth defects can be repaired by reinforcing the correct bioelectrical state.
所以我们用了非常严重的突变，你可能知道，就是Notch突变，对吧？
So we took really nasty, like you probably know, notch mutations, right?
这是一个非常重要的神经发生基因。
So really important neurogenesis gene.
通常情况下，如果你有Notch突变，大脑就会完全被破坏，对吧？
So typically you have a notch mutation, like the brain is just completely destroyed, right?
周围都是可怕的缺陷。
Terrible defects all around.
我们发现，存在一种正确的生物电模式，它定义了大脑的形状和大小。
What we found is that there is a proper bioelectrical pattern that says, here's the shape and size of the brain.
如果我们人为地施加这种模式，即使你有这个主导的Notch突变，也能拥有正常的大脑、正常的智商，诸如此类。
If we artificially impose that pattern, even though you have that dominant notch mutation, you'll have a normal brain, normal IQ, that kind of stuff.
有些缺陷可以通过软件方式修复，这么说吧。我不是说所有，但某些遗传缺陷是可以修复的。
Some defects can be fixed in software, so to speak, So even certain, I'm not saying all, but certain genetic defects can be fixed.
通过强化特定的生物电模式，我们确保了器官在解剖学上的健康。
So by reinforcing a particular bioelectrical pattern, we've ensured an anatomically healthy organ.
我们正在衰老与长寿领域做的一项工作是，将同样的方法应用于此——这里需要说明一下，有一家名为Astonishing Labs的公司正在授权使用我们的技术，我们正在研究在衰老过程中，维持身体高度协调的正常生物电模式是否会变得模糊。
We are taking one of the things we're doing in aging and longevity field is to take the same, and this is again, a disclosure here, there's another company that licenses called Astonishing Labs, that where what we're doing is we're looking to see whether during aging, the normal bioelectrical patterns that keep your body in sharp coherence start to get fuzzy.
看起来这些模式确实会随着年龄增长而变得模糊。
It looks like they blur with age.
这正是我的感受。
That's what it feels like.
是的，确实如此，对吧？
Yeah, it does, right?
对。
Yeah.
因此，我们正在尝试通过恢复这些模式来保持器官的健康。
So we're trying to see if by restoring these patterns, we can keep healthy organs.
我认为同样的方法，正如你所暗示的，也可以用来逆转和克服创伤带来的体细胞效应。
I think that same, I mean, you're suggesting is that same kind of approach to reverse and override the somatic effects of trauma.
我认为这完全合理。
I think it would be completely reasonable.
我们迟早会谈到这一点的。
And we'll probably get to it at some point.
我们会为此建立一个模型系统，然后开始推进。
We'll make a model system for it and we'll get going.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这完全合理。
I think that's totally reasonable.
我非常愿意花点时间，用近似科幻的方式描绘一下：当你们正在开发的这些工具和技术实现商业化时的世界——当然，我得说明，微型化和实际应用有其独特的挑战，但技术的进步通常能在一定时间内解决这些问题。
I would love to spend a little bit of time in near sci fi painting a picture of when these tools and technologies that you're developing are commercialized, and with the caveat that, you know, miniaturizing and implementing has its own unique set of challenges, but the progression of technology usually allows us to do that in a given period of time.
一旦这种情况发生，你能描绘出一个这些技术对我们每个人来说都触手可及的世界吗？
When that happens, can you start to paint a world that we live in with these being readily available to each one of us?
是的。
Yeah.
我无法描绘我们未来将生活其中的世界，因为正如我们所有人都看到的，有各种各样的事情可能破坏所有可能性；但我可以描绘一个我们本可以生活其中、而且我认为我们应当生活其中的世界。
I so so so I can't paint the world that we're going to be live in living in because as we all can see, there's all kinds of things happening that could undermine all the possibilities, but I can paint the world that we could live in and that I think we should live in.
我可以用‘身体自由’这个术语来概括这一切。
I can summarize all of that by using the term freedom of embodiment.
让我来解释一下我的看法。
Here's how I see this.
在未来某个时候，不会太久，最多几代人之后，学生们将会以我们看待史前人类祖先的方式阅读我们，他们会想：天啊，那时候的人踩到一根尖锐的木刺就会感染败血症并死去。
At some point in the future, not very long, don't think, couple of generations max, students are going to be reading about us in the same way that we read about our prehistoric hominid ancestors and think to ourselves, wow, you would step on a sharp stick and get sepsis and die.
但人们怎么能那样生活呢？
But how could people live that way?
你可能牙疼得发疯。
You might get a toothache and it would drive you mad.
我们怎么能这样生活？
How could we live like this?
未来的孩子们会读到关于我们的记载，他们会说：等等，等等。
Future children are going to read about us and they're gonna say, wait a minute, wait a minute.
你是说，那些人出生时，就只能拥有他们恰好拥有的那种身体，带着所有局限、易感性、先天缺陷——不管是什么身体，究竟是由什么决定的？
You're telling me that those people, they they were born, and and just whatever kind of body they happen to have been in with with with all of its limitations, susceptibilities, birth defects, whatever, whatever body determined by what?
随机的宇宙射线？
Random cosmic rays?
就是这些随机因素决定了他们拥有什么样的身体，而且他们一生都得困在那个身体里，完全受制于命运的无常。
That's what got to decide what what and they would have to stay in that body their whole life just just determined by by the vagaries.
我DNA里承载着数十万年的创伤。
I'm carrying the trauma for hundreds of thousands of years in my DNA.
没错。
Exactly.
对吧？
Right?
他们对此无能为力，只能接受命运发给他们的牌，这就是他们必须承受的一切，根本没人去确保每个人都能拥有自己想要的身体形态。
And there was nothing they could do about it, and they were just whatever cards were dealt, like, that's what they had to live with, and no one was on top of making sure that everybody was able to have the embodiment that they wanted the idea.
没人，没有任何帮助。
No one, no help.
对，没人帮忙。
Right, no help.
太惊人了。
Amazing.
我认为这会被视为丑闻。
I think this will be considered scandalous.
这是因为再生医学的道路通向一种被称为解剖编译器的东西。
And that's because the road to regenerative medicine leads to something called an anatomical compiler.
那是什么？
What is that?
那是一种通信设备，你可以用它描述：我希望细胞构建出这个看起来像这样的东西，无论是健康的器官，还是你想要的触手、后脑勺上的红外视觉，或者其他什么——
That is a communications device in which you describe, I want the cells to build this thing that looks like this, and whether it's a healthy organ or whether you want tentacles or infrared vision on the back of your head or some other-
我只希望我的身体不再将自己视为外来物并攻击它。
I just want my body to stop recognizing itself as alien and attacking it.
这是一个小小的要求。
It's a small request.
一个小要求。
A small request.
是的。
Yeah.
对，我明白你的意思。
Yeah, I hear you.
这确实是个问题。
That's definitely an issue.
但一旦我们能够向细胞群传达我们的目标，并让它们精确地构建出你想要的东西——这正是再生医学、生物工程领域所有人的研究目标。
But once we are able to communicate our goals to groups of cells and get them to build exactly what you want them to build, which is what all of us in regenerative medicine are working on, bioengineering, we're all working on.
当然，下一步就是说：是的，我们可以重建你原本的身体，但为什么我们就此止步呢？
The next step of course, is to say, well, yeah, we can rebuild the same body you always had, but I mean, why would we just stop there?
那并不是根据我们的价值观、希望和梦想设计的。
It's not like that was chosen in accordance to our values and our hopes and dreams.
进化只是在某个节点上把我们丢在那里，因为进化只追求‘足够好’。
That's kind of where evolution dropped us because evolution likes good enough.
进化喜欢的就是‘足够好’。
That's what evolution likes and just good enough.
所以最终，你可以拥有任何你想要的形态。
And so eventually you're going to be able to have whatever embodiment that you want.
但这一步是在能够应对出生缺陷、创伤性损伤、癌症和退行性疾病之后才能实现的。
And that's and that's be but, you know, that's the step after being able to handle birth defects, traumatic injury, cancer, degenerative disease.
之后，就是，是的。
After that, it's like, yeah.
但你想要什么样的器官呢？
But what what kind of organs would you like?
因为有广泛的选择范围。
Because there's a wide range of options.
我们希望能和你成为朋友。
Well, we would like to be friends with you.
我们对此非常确定。
We know that for certain.
非常高兴。
Delighted.
我们会让你走的。
And we will, let you go.
2021年，你曾被引用说你和你的妻子、孩子和父母住在一起。
Will say in 2021, you were quoted as saying that you and your wife and kids live with your parents.
现在还是这样吗？
Is that still the case?
情况仍然是这样。
That is still case.
那就是
That is
我真的很喜欢这一点。
still I love that.
谢谢您，医生。
Thank you, Doctor.
莱文。
Levin.
我们非常感谢能与您交谈。
We really appreciate talking to you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
很高兴见到您。
It was great to meet you.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
谢谢你们两位。
Thank you both.
我刚才扔了个重磅炸弹，说他和他工资住在一起——我本不想说他和父母住在一起。
That was a big, big bomb that I dropped that he lives with his pay I didn't wanna say that he lives with his parents.
他、他妻子和两个孩子，这是2021年一篇关于他的文章，我不得不跟进确认一下。
He, his wife, and his two children this was an article written on him in 2021, and I had to follow-up and see.
他们住在一起。
They all live together.
你知道吗，只有在世界非常小的一部分地区，人们才认为完全独立、不与家人有任何联系是一种成功的标志。
You know, it's only in very small parts of the world that we think it's a measure of success to be totally independent and not have any familial connection.
觉得他独立。
Think he's independent.
不。
No.
意思是，但不是依赖。
Meaning and but but not reliant.
我不是这个意思的独立。
That's not the way I'm using independent.
我的意思是，你知道的，我忘了。
I mean that you know, I forget.
我之前认识一个人，处境类似，他一个50岁的男人和他父亲住在一起，有人就说，这不奇怪吗？
I I I was I had knew someone who who was in a similar situation and they someone he was living with his father as as like a 50 year old man and, you know, someone said, well, isn't that weird?
他却说，如果我一个人住，我父亲也一个人住，那才更奇怪。
And he's like, It's weirder if I were to live alone and my dad were to live alone.
为什么我们不一起住呢？
Like, why wouldn't we live together?
他年纪大了，我在照顾他。
And I he's getting older, and I'm helping him.
还有什么比这更自然的呢？
Like, what is more natural than that?
我要说的是，这其实是列文医生故事中一个有趣的部分。
So, what I will say, and this actually is an interesting part, of Doctor.
列文出生在莫斯科，九岁时移民到了这个国家。
Levin's story, is that he was born in Moscow, and he immigrated to this country when he was nine.
他是家里最小的孩子。
And he was the youngest in his family.
他的母亲是一位音乐会钢琴家。
His mother was a concert pianist.
这篇文章提到，她最终转行成为了一名整体疗法从业者。
The article actually says she eventually transitioned to being a holistic practitioner.
我很好奇那是什么。
I was so curious what that was.
什么是整体疗法从业者？
What is the holistic practitioner?
我甚至都不想问。
I didn't even wanna ask.
他父亲是一名计算机程序员。当他们刚到美国时，搬到了马萨诸塞州波士顿的一个郊区，他们经常会拆开电视机，只是为了了解它们的工作原理，然后再重新组装起来。
His father was a computer programmer, And as a child, the way that his father, like when they just came to America, they moved to, a suburb of, Boston in Massachusetts, and they would take apart TV sets, like just to learn how they worked and then, you know, put them back together.
这就是他早期跟随父亲学习的方式，如何满足自己的兴趣，以及那些他感兴趣的事物。
That was his early training, you know, with his dad of just like how to satisfy his interest and the things that, you know, he was interested in.
无论如何，文章说他小时候患有哮喘，所以他父亲想给他找一项活动，让他在生病或呼吸困难时能待在一个地方。
Anyway, he was asthmatic as a child, the article says, and so his dad wanted to give him an activity to keep him in one place, you know, when he was sick or having trouble breathing.
总之，这是一个挺酷的故事。
Anyway, just kind of a cool story.
而且，是的，他、他妻子和两个孩子和他父母住在一起，我真的很喜欢这一点。
And yeah, he, his wife, and his two kids live with his parents, which I just love.
我认为，这句话我是真心夸他的，有时候他的解释反而比我要他解释的东西还要让人困惑。
I think, and I mean this in the highest complimentary way, sometimes his explanations are more confusing than the thing that I was asking him to explain.
因为他从各种不同的角度看待问题，不断退后、再退后，来解释这个机制。
Well, he's looking at it from a variety of different vantage points, and he's, like, stepping back and back and back in order to explain the mechanism.
而且还会不断拉近、再拉近。
And also zooming in and in and in.
我的意思是，我特别喜欢这个观点——不是说聊天机器人不是真人，而是我们到底在谈论什么？
I mean, I I love this idea that not so much that, oh, chatbots aren't real people, but, like, what are we even talking about?
他给人一种感觉，每一个词都可能有更深的含义。
He feels like the kind of person who, like, every word could have further implications.
这需要大量的补充和展开。
It needs a lot of a lot of fleshing out.
我曾经解剖过涡虫。
I had to dissect a planaria.
我知道你在好奇这件事。
I know you're wondering about that.
解剖涡虫是什么感觉？
Like, what was that like to dissect a planaria?
我一直在想，蝌蚪和人类经验有多远，也就是说，他能在蝌蚪身上重现什么。
I was wondering about it, and I was wondering how far away are tadpoles from human experience, meaning what he's been able to recreate in tadpoles.
要将这些应用到人类身上有多大的跨越？你该如何开始？
How far is it a leap in order to do in humans, and how do you start to do that?
你可以做到的。
You could do it.
我们已经知道可以做到。
We already know we can do it.
我们可以给你长出一个新的脚趾头。
We could grow you a new baby toe.
你知道吗？
You know what?
这感觉非常私人。
That feels very personal.
我跆拳道班里有个人脚趾断了，我当时就想，干脆切掉算了。
Someone in my Taekwondo class broke her toe, I was like, Just cut it off.
别人都说，你不能把小脚趾切掉。
And people were like, You can't cut off a pinky toe.
我觉得我的小脚趾没什么用，所以我觉得没人非得有它。
And I was like, I don't think mine is very useful, so I don't think anybody needs one.
我还说，这东西是退化的器官。
And I was like, It's vestigial.
总之，就是这么回事。
Anyway, it was a thing.
但我们其实已经知道，我是说，我真不想提这个，因为这些动物实验真的很难讨论？
But we already know, like, you can I mean, I I hate to say it just because these are really, really you know, they're kind of hard animal studies to talk about?
我不想说得太具体，但确实知道，你可以让组织在你想要的任何地方长出来。
I I don't wanna get specific, but we do know that you can kind of grow things wherever you want to put them.
我觉得很多人可能还困在这样一个观念里
I think a lot of people are are are maybe stuck on this notion
是的
Yeah.
关于他所描述的未来，那时我们的手机上有一个界面。
Of the future that he described where we have an interface on our phone.
你打开应用，就会发现所有的主要器官系统都在那里。
You open your app, and you're like, let's all the major organ systems are there.
也许你的血流数据也在那里。
Maybe your blood flow is there.
你所有的生物标志物都在。
All your biomarkers.
你可以这样想
You could be like
你刚才说血流？
Did
你刚才说血流？
you just say blood flow?
这就是为什么你做科学工作却拿不到科学学位的原因
This is why they don't give you a science degree for doing a science
播客。
podcast.
我
I
如果你想知道的话，突然发现我的血液从脚踝向上回流、再被泵回身体下肢的速度变慢了。
there could be an you wanna see that, oh, all of a sudden, my I'm not the blood is not moving as quickly from my ankles up, back up, and being pumped back up from the lower extremities of my body.
你可能会想，我的胰腺没有完成它该做的事。
You may be like, oh, my pancreas is not doing the things that my pancreas is supposed to do.
还有一整套清单，还有一个检查点。
And there's a whole list, and there's a checkpoint.
你会想，我应该向身体的这个区域发送一点电刺激，让它感觉好一点。
And you're like, I should just send a little bit of electrode radiant stimulation back to that area of my body, and it will be happier.
或者我需要改变饮食，你能实时监测这些变化吗？
And or I need to change something that I'm eating, and you're gonna be able to monitor that in real time?
这简直太疯狂了。
Like, that's pretty crazy.
我不是在逗你。
I'm not trying to tease.
抱歉，我听起来好像有点傲慢或居高临下。
I apologize for sounding like I was being arrogant or condescending.
但是的，我控制不住。
But yeah, you can't I can't help it.
你刚才那个表情是这个意思吗？
Is that what that face was?
我的意思是，这确实会很棒。
What I meant was, yes, it would be amazing.
还有这类信息，比如，对于我们这些有甲状腺问题的人，甲状腺的类型其实非常多，对吧？
And the kind of information, you know, like, for example, for those of us with a thyroid condition, of which there are many, many kinds of thyroids, right?
比如
Like
你只要点一下应用，就可以说：甲状腺，你需要一点重新调节。
You could just tap the app and be like, Thyroid, you need a little bit of, re signaling.
我认为葡萄糖代谢对糖尿病患者来说是个很好的例子。
I think that that glucose metabolism is a really good example for people who are diabetic.
你知道，这种东西在一天当中会有所波动。
You know, that's something that's gonna fluctuate throughout the day.
它会在餐前和餐后发生变化。
It's gonna fluctuate before a meal, after a meal.
对吧？
Right?
这种监测方式就是你看到人们随身携带的那些东西。
That's the kind of monitoring that people you see them walking around.
你知道，他们手臂后面戴着那些设备。
You know, they have those things on the back of their arm.
非糖尿病患者也在使用这些设备，想知道他们吃的东西如何实时影响身体。
People who are not diabetic have these things, and they're wondering how the things that they're eating are impacting them on real time.
我的意思是，我也在想，我们每天做多少次关于吃什么的决定，却只是基于‘我想不想吃’呢？
Well, I mean, I'm also thinking, you know, how many times are we making a decision about what to eat, and we're just basing it on, do I want it or not?
那你的身体需要这个吗？
How about does your body need this?
你的身体需要什么？
What does your body need?
今天早上开始我们的一天时，我吃了一个苹果。
I had an apple as I was, you know, starting our day today.
我当时真的在想，我知道我应该吃点蛋白质来减缓糖分代谢，避免血糖飙升，但我真的没时间去拿一勺坚果酱。
And I literally had the thought, I know I'm supposed to eat a protein to help slow down the sugar metabolism so I don't have a spike, but I don't really have time to grab a spoon of, you know, nut butter.
我该抓一把核桃吃吗？
Should I grab a handful of walnuts?
然后我就想，管他呢。
And then I was like, screw it.
我就直接吃苹果了。
I'll just eat the apple.
但谁又知道，这些微小的决定在几十年的老身体里会累积成什么样的影响呢？
But who knows what kind of things those micro decisions start accumulating in a body that is decades old, you know?
几十年了，比如已经五十岁了。
Decades old, like half a century old.
是的。
Yes.
而且我认为，当你拥有这样的实时信息时，你就能看到身体实际上是如何反应的。
And I think when you have real time information like that, you can see how does my body actually respond.
我有个有趣的问题。
I have a funny question.
因为你是个作家，所以我把这个当作一个写作实验来问你。
And because you're a writer, I'm I'm posing this as a writing experiment for you.
如果你在约会，而且对某人有好感，对吧？你的身体仪表盘可能会给你什么信息？
If you are on a date, if you are attracted to someone, right, what's the information that your, you know, anatomical dashboard might give you?
它可能会说：你可能觉得这个人适合你，但事实上，这种化学反应根本不该存在。
It might say, you may think this person is good for you, but in fact, this is not a chemistry that should be existing.
对吧？
Right?
它可能会分析他们的信息素。
It could analyze their pheromones.
你这是在形成创伤联结。
You're trauma bonding.
这就是创伤联结。
This is trauma bonding.
你以为这是化学反应？
You think it's chemistry?
这只不过是创伤联结。
It's just trauma bonding.
走开。
Walk away.
走开。
Walk away.
我不确定你能不能立刻从这一点看出来。
I don't know if you could tell right away from that.
他们是一种囊性纤维化携带者，你也是。
They are a cystic fibrosis carrier, and so are you.
如果你想要有亲生孩子，建议你在进行第二次约会前去咨询遗传学专家。
If you'd like to have biological children, you may wanna go to a genetic counselor before you go on date two.
我认为一旦我们做了这些调整，你就可以随时开启或关闭这些功能。
I think once we have these adjustments, you could just switch on or off those.
这就会终结浪漫了。
It'll be the end of romance.
这肯定是真的。
That's for sure.
不。
No.
如果你是囊性纤维化携带者，你很可能可以下调或关闭这个基因，从而避免在现阶段遗传给下一代。
If you're a cystic fibrosis carrier, you could probably down regulate that or turn it off so that it doesn't get passed at this stage.
天哪。
Oh my goodness.
你知道吗，他所说的这些基因改造令人害怕的地方在于
You know, the scary part of what he's talking about, these genetic alterations are
这意味着没人会死，地球会人口过剩，最终崩溃。
Is that no one's gonna die and the planet's gonna be overpopulated and it's gonna just crumble.
是的。
Yes.
如果你能再生任何你想要的器官，那界限在哪里？
And if you can regrow whatever organs you want, where does it tap out?
这正是我的意思。
That's what I mean.
我们将永生。
We're gonna live forever.
但还有，比如运动表现。
But also, like, athletic performance.
每个人都会拥有难以置信的肺活量。
Everyone is now gonna have unbelievable lung capacity.
每个人都会拥有快肌和慢肌。
Everyone's gonna have fast twitch and slow twitch muscles.
你可以进行这些调整，就像他说的，既然已经足够好了，为什么还要复刻现状呢？
You're get like, you can make these adjustments, like, as he said, well, why would you just regrow the status quo that was good enough?
我想要一个有三个不同关节、能抓取我需要的东西的小脚趾。
I want a pinky toe that has three different hinges and can grab things that I need.
看吧。
Look.
我们每个人都有自己的目标。
We all have our goals.
有些人甚至可能超越这个目标。
Some people's goals may even surpass that.
因此，你就会和那些没有经过改造的人竞争，而他说，这就会导致我们陷入一种排他性状态。
And therefore, then you're competing against people who are not adjusted, and that's where he says, we're gonna get into this exclusionary state.
他谈到了义体人，这让我们回想起与格雷格·布雷登的对话，他提到过将人工智能技术植入大脑的可能性。
He talked about it with cyborgs, and that links back to our conversation with Greg Braden, where he talks about the potential for implanting AI technology in our brain.
我们已经看到，目前已有公司正试图在互联网与我们的大脑之间建立接口，并实现同时运作。
And we've seen that there are already companies out there trying to implant an interface between the Internet and our brains and have it work simultaneously.
如果你想想这一点，再加上对先天缺陷的修正，这将进而导致身体部位的增强，甚至可能再生身体部位、恢复老化器官系统。如果你有足够的钱，你就可以拥有任何想要的内部器官，这有点令人恐惧，因为如果你无法竞争，人类就会开始分化成多重阶级。
If you think about that plus the addition to change birth defects, which will then lead to augmenting body parts, potentially regrowing body parts, regenerating organ systems that are aging, You're on a very quick slope to if you have enough money, you can have whatever internal organs you want, which is a little terrifying because if you aren't able to compete, then it starts to separate and have a multi class system of humanity.
我的意思是，我们总喜欢用一个令人沮丧的结尾来打击人。
Well, I mean, not we love to depress people with a good outro.
事实上，正如你我开始这个播客时就知道的那样，心理健康服务对大多数人来说根本无法获得。
That is what is already happening in that, as you and I knew when we started this podcast, mental health care is really not accessible to most people.
它只对精英阶层开放。
It is accessible to the elite.
保险制度，对吧？我们国家的保险体系结构，使得那些负担不起的人无法获得同等的医疗服务。
Insurance, right, and the way our country has structured insurance makes it such that people who cannot afford it do not have access to the same kinds of doctors.
你知道，这本来就存在一种系统性的、基于社会经济地位的医疗资源隔离现象，或者说是由此衍生的。
You know, it's just that there already is this, you know, systemic kind of segregation of care that is socioeconomically based, but, or derived.
我不知道。
I don't know.
这就像，你知道的，是系统的一部分。
It's it's like a you know, that's part of the system.
我们与加来道雄的对话将更深入地探讨这个问题，因为下一次对话将讨论量子计算如何改变这些事件发生的时间尺度，并大幅提升这些讨论被极大推进的可能性。
Our conversation with Michio Kaku is going to get into this in even more detail because the next conversation is how does quantum computation shift the time scale of when these happen and increase the probability for all of these conversations to get really, really ratcheted up.
所以，这次对话与与博士的对话之间有大量的重叠。
So there's a tremendous amount of overlap between this conversation and the one with Doctor.
加来道雄博士也是如此。
Kaku as well.
非常迷人。
Fascinating.
真的、真的非常迷人。
Really, really fascinating.
我也想顺便提一下，你知道的，博士。
I also wanna just give a nod to the fact that, you know, Doctor.
莱文是一位非常严格的计算机科学家、生物学家、合成生物学家，非常注重细节。
Levin is a very, very strict computer scientist, biologist, synthetic biologist, you know, very, very nuts and bolts.
他对离子和电生理学的了解，比我们过去或将来交谈过的任何人都要深入。
He knows, you know, more about ions and electrophysiology than most anyone that we've spoken to or will speak to.
但我也很欣赏他能够谈论一些奇妙的能量成分。
But also, I appreciate his ability to talk about some of the fantastic and energy components.
甚至我们用来描述与他人互动的语言方式，也反映了他所研究的细胞层面的现象。
Even the way that we linguistically describe what it's like to interface with other humans is echoing what he is studying on the cellular level.
因此，我非常享受能从这两个层面与他交谈，而他也能够与我们达成共鸣，因为我知道很多人可能会想：这些细胞到底和我们有什么关系？
So I really enjoyed being able to to speak with him on both of those levels and for him to sort of meet us there because I know a lot of people might be thinking, like, what's with all these cells and how does it apply?
猜猜怎么着？
Guess what?
这其实是同一个话题。
It's the same conversation.
他从一个必须能够证明它的角度出发来看待这个问题。
He comes at it from a place of, I need to be able to show it.
我需要这些数据，我会找到它们。
I need the numbers, and I'm going to find them.
我也非常欣赏你提到的传统中医对他在实验室中研究的许多相互作用和沟通方式的理解。
I also really loved your addition of how traditional Chinese medicine understands many of the interactions and and communication that he is doing now in the lab.
这真是连接多个领域的奇妙桥梁。
It's really a fascinating bridge between multiple worlds.
我的意思是，这只是一个有趣的花絮。
I mean, this is just like a fun tidbit.
你知道，乔纳森，你在许多研究和个人经历中，无论是亲身体验还是学习其他实践，都接触过那些声称能观察你的身体并评估体内系统状况的能量疗愈师。
You know, Jonathan, you've, you know, in in a lot of your studies and, you know, the research that you've done personally, both experientially and also just sort of learning about other practices, you know, energy workers who claim to be able to look at your body and assess what's going on in systems.
有一些医学灵媒会说，我要观察你的身体。
There are people who are medical mediums who will say, I'm gonna look at your body.
我要感知你的能量场，不管那意味着什么。
I'm gonna feel into your energy field, whatever that means.
我能感觉到你的喉咙里出现了紊乱。
And I can tell that there's a disruption in your throat.
对吧？
Right?
我能感觉到你的肾脏有异常。
I can tell that there's a disruption in your kidneys.
有些人声称拥有这种能力。
Like, some people claim to have this ability.
我肯定他们经常出错，但也许他们很多时候是对的。
I'm sure they're wrong a lot, but they also might be right a lot.
我不知道。
I don't know.
是的。
Yeah.
他们可能不会说，我知道你的钾水平是x、y和z。
They may not be like, oh, I know the balance of your potassium levels are x, y, and z.
他们可能会说，我看到这个区域的生物电场流动出现了停滞，需要以某种方式调整。
They may be like, I see a stagnation in the flow of the bioelectrical field in this area that needs to be adjusted in some way.
但如果我们进一步深入探讨，去分析释放这种能量所需的化学反应或营养物质，以及情感层面的因素，这将是一个非常引人入胜的动态过程。
But to dive even deeper to say what are the chemical reactions or nutrients that are required in order to release that as well as the emotional component, that's a fascinating dynamic.
没错。
Right.
但我认为，尤其是对我们这个播客以及正在收听和观看的观众来说，这些是不同类型的知识。
But I think that the importance, especially for our podcast and for those of you who are listening and and watching, those are different kinds of intelligence.
完全正确。
Totally.
在我看来，这正是一个开放、怀疑且科学的思维所贡献的价值。
And to me, this is what an open minded, skeptical, scientific mind brings to the table.
正是莱文医生所呈现的。
Exactly what Doctor.
莱文医生所带来的是。
Levin is bringing to the table.
因为他所说的是，确实存在多种理解并谈论这些现象的方式。
Because what he's saying is there literally are different ways to understand these things and to speak about them.
如果你想要某种特定类型的数据，那就是一种语言，对吧？
If you want a certain kind of data, that's one language, right?
但对我来说，这并不排除有些人可能掌握着我们无法如此量化的语言。
But to me, that doesn't rule out that there are people who may be able to speak languages that we don't quantify like that.
我觉得这非常、非常有趣。
I think it's very, very interesting.
我们所有人不过是彼此玩着井字棋的外星人，各自的游戏通过几个接口相连。
We're all just aliens playing tic tac toe with each other, separate games connected by a few interfaces.
当你从外部看时，它看起来就像一档播客。
And when you look from the outside, it just looks like a podcast.
请务必在Substack上关注我们。
Please make sure to join us on Substack.
你知道我确定的是什么吗？
You know what I know for sure?
我确信，与Breaker社区关于再生肢体的对话将会非常精彩，我们会探讨关于人类未来的一些理解。
The conversation with the Breaker community is gonna be kinda exciting on this episode talking about regrowing limbs, what we can understand about the future of what being human is.
所以请加入Breaker社区在Substack上的这场讨论。
So come join that conversation as part of the breaker community on Substack.
网址是 bialikbreakdown.substack.com。
That's bialikbreakdown.substack.com.
我们期待在那里见到你。
We hope to to see you over there.
从我们的剖析到你希望永远不必经历的剖析，我们……
And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll
下次见。
see you next time.
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