身心合一的科学：为何你的细胞始终倾听你的思想，以及一位传奇哈佛心理学家如何重新定义生物学可能的极限。

因此，现在他们认为自己的员工在锻炼，因此应该期待健康状况的改善，而这正是我们所观察到的结果。

And so now they seem their workers exercise, therefore they should expect health changes and that's what we get.

让我向你们介绍我最近和我的研究生彼得·昂格尔一起进行的另一项研究。

Let me give you another study that I recently did with my graduate student, Peter Ungle.

所以我们制造了一个小伤口，不是大伤口，因为那样不太人道。

So we inflict a wound, not a big wound because that wouldn't be nice.

即使我想这么做，相关部门也不会允许我。

And even if I wanted to do it, the powers that be wouldn't let me.

但这确实是一个伤口。

But it's a wound.

我们让一个人坐在钟表前。

And we have a person sitting in front of a clock.

他们并不知道，这个钟表被做了手脚。

Unbeknownst to them, the clock is rigged.

对于三分之一的人，钟表的走速是真实时间的两倍。

So for a third of the people, it's going twice as fast as real time.

对于另外三分之一的人，时钟走得比实际时间慢一半。

For a third of the people, it's going half as fast as real time.

还有三分之一的人，时钟显示的是实际时间。

And for a third of the people, it's real time.

我们提出的问题是：愈合速度取决于感知时间还是实际时间？

And the question we're asking is, does healing result as a function of perceived time or real time?

人们通常认为伤口会在该愈合时自然愈合，但事实是：愈合速度取决于你主观感知的时间流逝快慢。

Now, people assume it's going to heal when it heals, But no, it heals based on how quickly you think time has passed.

我们有很多类似的研究。

And we have lots of studies like that.

我们有一个睡眠研究。

We have a sleep study.

人们在睡眠实验室醒来。

People wake up in a sleep lab.

同样地，我操纵了时钟。

Again, I screw around with the clock.

你看到自己多睡了两个小时，或者少睡了两个小时。

You see you got two hours more sleep, two hours fewer of the amount of sleep you've got.

认知和生理功能会跟随感知到的睡眠时长而变化。

Cognitive and physiological functions follow perceived amount of sleep.

是的，我正想提到那个睡眠时钟实验。

Yeah, I was just going to mention the sleep clock experiment.

你的许多研究都聚焦于时间以及操控时间的方法。

Many of your studies focus on time and ways to manipulate time.

这是一个很容易在实验室里操作的方法。

It's an easy laboratory manipulation to do.

所以核心观点是：如果你让人们相信他们获得了更多睡眠，即使实际睡眠较少，这种认知也足以让他们认为自己得到了充分休息。

So the notion being that if you convince people that they got more sleep, even if they got less sleep, that perception is enough to make them decide that they are rested.

而如果你让他们相信睡眠不足，即使他们实际上获得了完整的八小时不间断睡眠——我想任何有过小宝宝的人都能体会这点，尤其是那些整晚都要喂奶的情况。

And if you convince them that they got less sleep, even though they got, let's say, a full uninterrupted eight hours and I think of this for anyone who's had a small child, especially one that wants to nurse all night.

所以很大程度上这取决于你的主观感知。

So much of it is about your perception.

我认为这正是贯穿您所有研究和整本书的一条主线。

And I think that's sort of this thread that runs through all of your research and throughout the book as well.

并且意识到我们的感知是受我们自己控制的。

And understanding that our perceptions are under our control.

这意味着，我们可以掌控这些原本可能让我们感到无能为力的事情。

So that, again, means that we can control all of these things where otherwise we might feel sort of helpless.

如果我们想让一个有伤口的人具体理解这一点，比如这种效应能延伸到多远？在长期不睡觉的情况下还能成立吗？

If we want to make it tangible for someone who has a cut, for example, like how far does this extrapolate and does it hold up under like months of not sleeping?

这其中是否存在任何生物学上的真实基础，还是完全只是主观感受？

Is there any biological reality or is it all subjective?

大多数时候，我做这些研究是为了探讨可能性，我不确定这种效应能被推到多远。

Most of the time I do these studies to talk about possibility, and I don't know how far you can push it.

但让我举一个可能说明这一点的例子，这简直不可思议。

But let me tell you an example that may speak to that, and it's wild.

多年前，我是哈佛医学院衰老学部的一员，当时该部门的主任是医生杰克·罗。

So years ago I was part of the Division of Aging at the Harvard Medical School, And the chair at that point was Jack Rowe, a physician.

有一天我给杰克打了电话。

I called Jack one day.

我对杰克说：杰克，一根断掉的手指需要多久才能愈合？

I said, Jack, how long does it take a broken finger to heal?

他说：我不知道，大概一周吧。

He said, I don't know, a week.

我说：如果我告诉你，我能通过心理手段在五天内让它愈合，你会怎么说？

I said, What would you say if I said I could heal it by psychological means in five days?

他说：好吧。

He said, All right.

我说：那四天呢？

I said, What about four days?

他说：好吧。

He said, All right.

我说：那三天呢？

I said, What about three days?

他说，不行。

He said, No.

我说，好吧，那三天二十三小时呢？

I said, Okay, what about three days and twenty three hours?

关键是，你知道，在什么情况下，你突然就做不到呢？

The point is, at what point, you know, all of a sudden you can't do it?

我们所讨论的这些事情，某些生物极限是存在的。

There are certain biological limits to what we're talking about.

存在一个下限效应。

There is a floor effect.

必须存在一个下限效应，就像存在一个上限效应一样。

There has to be a floor effect, just like there's a ceiling effect.

我们都学过一些固定的东西。

We're all taught certain things.

你知道，骨折需要一定时间才能愈合，事情总是以某种特定方式发展的。

And, you know, a break takes however long to heal and, you know, things unfold in a particular way.

这对我们来说很难理解。

And it's very hard for us to wrap our heads around.

但那只是一个理论。

But that was just a theory.

那只是一个想法。

That was just an idea.

那只是对许多人发生的情况的一种解释，并不一定适用于所有人。

That was just an explanation for what happens with many people, not necessarily all.

你知道，你问我关于极限的问题。

And, you know, so you asked me about limits.

你知道，我不确定。

You know, I don't know.

但我知道，我进行这些研究时，始终抱着一个想法：向人们展示可能性远远超出我们的假设，正如我之前所说，与其像医生那样说你只剩三周生命，不如问一句：他或她怎么能确定呢？

But I know that I've undertaken virtually all these studies with the idea in mind to show people that the possibilities far, far exceed what we assume and that rather than assume, as I said before, like the doctor says you have three weeks to live, now you should say, well, how could he or she know that?

他们无法确定。

They can't.

你怎么能说这是错的呢？

And how can you make that wrong?

你如何才能真正扭转自己的处境？

How can you actually turn things around for yourself?

如果你不相信这是可能的，你就做不到。

You're not going to if you don't believe it's possible.

如果你相信这是可能的，你也许就能做到。

If you believe it's possible, you may be able to.

我并不是说，如果你患有四期癌症，如果不加干预就会在一周内去世，那么你就能去跑马拉松。

I'm not suggesting that if you have stage four cancer and if left alone, you would die within the week, that, you know, you'll be able to, you know, do a marathon.

但我说的是，我们无法确定这一点。

But I am saying we can't be sure of it.

这不可能发生。

That can't happen.

你无法证明某件事是不可能的。

You can't prove that something can't be.

当你相信它有可能实现时，你会以不同的方式组织自己，并更享受正在做的事情。

When you believe it can, that it's a possibility, you organize yourself differently and you enjoy more of what you're doing.

你知道，很多人打电话给我，他们在健康方面被宣判了死刑。

You know, lots of people call me who are given these death sentences health wise.

我对他们说，如果被告知我只能活三周或三个月，我会尽力不把时间浪费在沮丧上。

And I say to them, I think that if I were told I had three weeks to live or three months to live, I'd do my best not to waste my time being depressed.

我会努力尽可能多地体验生活。

I would try to get all the living I could in.

我之前向你提到的研究表明，如果我们开始这样做，如果我们全身心投入享受生活，这意味着我们正保持正念，意味着神经元在活跃放电，我们很可能能够扭转其中一些状况。

And the research that I've already mentioned to you suggests that if we start doing that, if we're fully out there enjoying ourselves, that means we're being mindful, that means the neurons are firing, we may very well be able to turn some of these things around.

自发缓解很难研究，因为你无法预知，对吧？

Spontaneous remissions are very hard to study because you don't know, right?

你知道，某人得到诊断后，我们预期他们的状况会恶化。

You know, somebody's got a diagnosis, we're expecting them to go downhill.

我们无法跟踪所有这些人并假设其中某个人可能会出现逆转。

We can't follow all these people and assume maybe one of them is going to reverse.

但我认为自发性缓解的发生频率远不像大多数人假设的那么低。

But I think that spontaneous remissions are not nearly as infrequent as most people assume.

想象一下，你去看医生，在医院里你说，我不想死在医院，我想死在家里。

You know, imagine you go to the doctor, you know, you're in the hospital and you say, I don't want to die in the hospital, I want to die at home.

于是你回到家，突然开始想，去他的吧？

And so you go home and all of a sudden you start to say, you know, the hell with this?

让我现在就想喝那杯酒，我想起床，如果我还剩一点力气的话。

Let me I want that glass of wine now and I want to get out of bed, you know, if I still have any strength to do so.

而且他们想让你知道。

And they want to let you know.

假设确实发生了自发性痊愈。

And let's say that there is a spontaneous remission.

比起先去享受生活，人们有多大可能会第一时间打电话告诉医生他诊断错了？

How likely is it that the first thing rather than just going and enjoying your life is I'm gonna call the doctor and tell him he was wrong?

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I'm saying?

而且，你有这么多人生活在没有医院、医生极少的地区，所以他们根本就不会去看医生，因此如果肿瘤真的消失了，也没人会知道。

And you have all these people living in areas where there are no hospitals, very few doctors, and so they don't go to the doctor in the first place so that if the tumor actually goes away, there's no one to know.

他们连一开始有没有肿瘤都不知道，自然也就不会意识到后来肿瘤消失了。

They didn't even know they had the tumor in time one, so they're not gonna know what they don't have at a time two.

所以，要确切知道这种情况有多普遍，是非常困难的。

So it's a very hard thing to know just how widespread this is.

但如果我们假设它比现在人们所认为的要普遍得多，那么人们现在可能会想，哦，百万分之一吧。

But if we assumed that it's more widespread than people assume now, people, you know, now would assume, oh, one in a million.

你知道，百万分之一的概率，你不会为此去组织任何实际行动。

You know, one in a million, you're not going to organize yourself to make it real.

你会说，也许这其实更有可能发生。

You say, well, you know, maybe it's much more likely.

然后你的整个态度就会改变。

And then your whole attitude changes.

很多疾病本质上都是因为彻底放弃而导致的。

Lots of illness results from basically just giving up.

这很有力量。

That's powerful.

我想知道你能否谈谈你所做的关于糖尿病的一些研究。

I wonder if you can talk a little bit about some of the diabetes studies that you've done.

正如你聪明地指出的那样，在实验室环境中，使用时钟来倒转时间是一件很容易的事。

As you so cleverly said that in a laboratory setting using a clock is an easy thing to do to turn back time.

但我们让患有2型糖尿病的人来参加实验，并进行了各种测量。

But what we did was we had people who had type two diabetes come to the experiment and we took all sorts of measures.

我们现在要做的，我接下来要说的可能有点让人困惑，请稍等一下，很快就会清楚：我们打算让他们玩电脑游戏，电脑旁边放着一个时钟。

Now we were going, and the reason what I'm going say is confusing, just hold on for a moment, it'll become clear, we were going to have them play computer games and there was a clock next to the computer.

我们告诉他们，每十五分钟左右就换一个游戏。

And we told them change the game you're playing every fifteen minutes or so.

这样就能确保他们会看时钟。

And that would ensure that they look at the clock.

而且，那个时钟是被做过手脚的。

And again, the clock was rigged.

所以对三分之一的人，时钟走得比实际时间快一倍，对另外三分之一的人走得慢一半，剩下的三分之一则是实际时间。

So for a third of the people it's going twice as fast as real time, for a third of the people half as fast, and the remaining third it's real time.

我们提出的问题是：血糖水平是遵循时钟时间还是感知时间？

And the question we were asking was did blood sugar level follow clock time or perceived time?

说到这里，听众们应该已经知道答案是感知时间。

And by this point your listeners should know it's perceived time.

我们的期望和信念远比大多数人想象的要强大得多。

Our expectations, beliefs are so much more powerful than most of us assume.

所以我不断做这些播客、写这些书，根本原因就是要唤醒人们意识到这一点。

And so basically the reason I keep doing all these podcasts, keep writing all these books, is to wake people up to that.

根据我几十年的研究观察，我发现大多数人几乎始终处于无意识状态。

In my view, and so many decades of this research, I found that most people are mindless almost all of the time.

这本质上就像被禁锢在未经真正活过的生命里。

And so essentially you're sealed in an unlived life.

现在是时候打破这种禁锢，积极参与生活，去享受当下拥有的一切。

And it's time to break the seal, get engaged, to enjoy whatever is available to you.

我们都不知道自己的生命还有多长。

And none of us know how long we have.

你知道，现在有很多婴儿潮一代，像我这个年纪的人，一心想着要活得更久。

You know, we have people now, baby boomers, people my age who are hell bent on, they're going to live longer.

于是他们出去锻炼，有些人甚至讨厌锻炼，还吃各种药物和补品等等。

And so they're out exercising, some of them hating it, taking all sorts of drugs and supplements and so on.

他们的目标是为自己的生命增添更多年份。

And with the goal of adding more years to their lives.

我的观点是，与其试图为生命增添更多年份，不如为你的每一年增添更多生命。

My view is rather than trying to add more years to your life, you should add more life to your years.

奇怪的是，这样做反而可能会让生命变得更长久。

And oddly, that will probably result in a longer life.

你谈到信念和期望对我们生活方式的重要性。

You talk about how important belief and expectation is to how we're living.

人们该如何改变自己的信念和期望呢？

How do people start to change their belief and expectation?

每当你被灌输某种观点时，不妨让警钟响起来。

Whenever you're you're taught anything is, you know, let a bell go off.

你知道你怎么确定它是对的吗？

You know, how do you know it is?

谁说的？

Who says so?

有时候，对某些人来说确实如此。

And that it is sometimes for some people.

好吧，我们必须停止盲目接受和沉迷于那些被强加给我们的绝对观念。

Okay, so we have to stop buying into and becoming mindless with all the absolutes we're given.

比如，马是不吃肉的。

Horses don't eat meat, for example.

接下来，对我们大多数人来说，我们会竭尽全力去追求所谓的好事，拼命逃避所谓的坏事，却忽略了事物本身并无好坏之分。

Next, for almost all of us, we do everything we can to get that good thing, run as fast as we can from that bad thing, overlooking the fact that things in and of themselves are neither good nor bad.

是我们的头脑赋予了它们好坏的属性。

It's our minds that make them so.

所以下次遇到不好的事情时，不妨停下来问问自己：这件事实际上可能带来什么好处？

And so if the next time there was something bad, you stop and you ask yourself, how might that actually be good?

如果同一件事可能好也可能坏，你只需静观其变，不必逃避也不必追逐，保持存在本身就好。

And if the same thing is potentially good or bad, you just sit still, you don't need to run from it or run towards it, you can just be.

当你经常进行这类思考练习时

And you do this sort of thing often enough.

要知道，我在几十年前就参与过认知行为疗法的发展——当时认知行为治疗师会教你重新构建对当前处境的认知框架。

You see, I played a part in cognitive behavior therapy decades and decades ago, where you would be taught if you went to a cognitive behavior therapist to reframe the current situation.

但如果你——我不是在说重新框架——如果你经常这样做，就不必...比如刚才我的电脑差点崩溃。

But if you, I'm not talking about reframing, you say, if you do that often enough, you don't have to, you know, a moment before my computer was going bananas.

那又怎样呢？

Now, so what?

如果我当时说'天哪，我没办法了'...但当你意识到优势时，如果电脑真的死机了，我就可以去享用一顿迟来的午餐。

If I said, oh my goodness, I'm not going to be able to, you know, when you realize the advantage, if it did just go out, then I would go and I'd have a late lunch.

那样其实也挺好的。

That would be good too.

无论发生什么，一切都可能是好的。

No matter what happens, it's all potentially good.

你并没有在欺骗自己，因为事情本身并不是好或坏的。

And you're not lying to yourself because things are not in and of themselves good or bad.

但由于事情本身并非好坏之分，而看到负面会给你带来压力和疯狂，所以这样做很可能不明智。

But because they're not good or bad and seeing the bad gets you stressed and crazy, it's probably not wise to do that.

有趣的是，我认为疾病的主要原因以及导致人们不快乐的主要因素是压力。

Now, interesting because I think the major cause of illness and the major thing that leads to people's unhappiness is stress.

压力并不是由事件本身决定的。

And stress is not a function of events.

压力是我们对事件的看法所决定的。

Stress is a function of the views we take of events.

所以，如果你能拓宽这种视角，注意到，比如说，我害怕自己会考试不及格。

So if you open up that view and notice, you know, let's say I'm afraid I'm going to fail the test.

我害怕我的配偶会离开我。

I'm afraid my spouse is going to leave me.

我担心这个播客会很糟糕，不管你害怕什么。

I'm afraid the podcast is going to be awful, whatever you're afraid of.

现在你问自己，为什么这种想法可能是错的呢？

And you now ask yourself, you know, why might that be wrong?

每次你感到压力时，实际上都有一种预期，认为某件事会发生，而且一旦发生，结果会很糟糕。

You know, for every time you're stressed, there's actually an expectation that something's gonna happen, and when it happens, it's going to be awful.

但我们无法预测。

But we can't predict.

我们以为自己能预测，但实际上无法预测个别情况。

We think we can predict, but we can't predict the individual case.

我们可以预测某种治疗对75%接受它的人有效，但无法预测对哪些个体有效。

We can predict a treatment is successful, let's say for seventy five percent of the people who are given it, we can't predict for which individuals it'll be effective.

好吧，所以我们能预测。

All right, so we can predict.

所以你要告诉自己，这里有三到五个理由，说明事情可能会和你想的不一样。

So say to yourself, know, here are three reasons, five reasons why it might turn out to be other than I'm thinking.

那个人不会走，我不会考试不及格，我的电脑也不会崩溃，你知道的，随便什么吧。

The person won't leave, I won't flunk the test, my computer won't go on the blitz, you know, whatever.

现在，更难的部分来了。

Now then is the harder part.

让我们想象一下，你一直担心的事情真的发生了。

Let's imagine this thing that you were dreading does happen.

这怎么反而会是件好事呢？

How is that actually a good thing?

如果你能掌握如何把那些你害怕的事情转化为优势，那你就能彻底解脱了。

And if you can master how this thing you dreaded is actually an advantage, then you're home free.

你这样练习几次之后，就会变得越来越容易、越来越自然。

And you do that a few times and it becomes easier and easier and more natural.

所以，我不知道，大概有五十年、六十年了，我都没再重新审视过一件事，因为从一开始我就没觉得它是负面的。

So I don't know, it must be sixty years, fifty years, we'll say, since I reframed something because it doesn't occur to me as negative in the first place.

你能给我们举个例子吗？

Can you give us an example?

我问你，你想见见我的朋友乔吗？

I ask you, do you wanna meet my friend Joe?

他非常冲动。

He's very impulsive.

你为什么要见乔？

Why would you wanna meet Joe?

对吧？

Right?

或者我对你说，你想见见我的朋友乔吗？

Or I say to you, do you want to meet my friend Joe?

他非常随性。

He's very spontaneous.

是的，我想见乔。

Yeah, I want to meet Joe.

冲动和随性其实是一回事，但它们会把你引向非常不同的方向。

Well, and impulsive are the same thing, but they lead you in very different places.

事实上，这对我来说是另一个重要的点。

In fact, this is another important piece for me.

每一个我们对自己或他人的负面描述、负面评价，都有一个同样强烈但情感色彩相反的替代说法。

Every single negative ascription, negative thing we say about ourselves or somebody else has an equally strong but oppositely valenced alternative.

用英语来说，就是每个缺点都有对应的优点。

In English, for every bad, there's a good.

每个优点也都有对应的缺点。

For every good, there's a bad.

所以下次你称呼自己或别人时，让我举个例子，我实在太容易上当了，简直难以置信。

And so the next time you call yourself or somebody else, let me give you an example, I am so gullible, it defies belief.

我就是这样。

I am.

我确实是这样的。

I really am.

我还很冲动。

I'm also impulsive.

现在，如果我想停止变得轻信，而你打算在这一点上帮我，看看艾伦，你曾被两个心理变态欺骗过。

Now, if I want to stop being gullible and you're going to help me stop at your point, look at Ellen, you were taken by two psychopaths.

我知道。

I know.

这就是为什么我希望你明白，我永远不会改变。

That's why I want you to I'm never going to change.

为什么？

Why?

因为从今往后，我不再是轻信的人。

Because going forward, I'm not being gullible.

从今往后，我是信任他人的人。

Going forward, I'm being trusting.

只要我还珍视信任，就总会有一些时候我会显得轻信。

And as long as I value being trusting, there are times I'm going to be gullible.

我珍视自发性，因此有时我会显得冲动。

I value being spontaneous, which is why at times I'm going to seem impulsive.

所以关键在于，每次你自责'我怎么会做出这种事'的时候

So the point is, every time you call yourself, oh, how could I have done this?

或者审视自己有多糟糕时，要找到对当事人行为动机的积极理解

Or look at how you know what a monster you are and you find the positive understanding of why that person did it.

通常你甚至不会再想去改变他们了

You typically don't even want to change them anymore.

但如果你想改变某人的行为，必须从行为实施者的角度出发

But if you want to change somebody's behavior, you have to change the behavior from the perspective of the actor.

你必须让我不再重视自发性的价值，不再重视信任的价值。

You have to get me not to value being spontaneous, not to value being trusting.

但这非常强大。

But it's very powerful.

它带来的变化是改变你与自己的关系。

And what happens is it changes your relationship to yourself.

它改变你与他人的关系。

It changes your relationships with other people.

所有这些都会让你更加专注，从而改善你的健康。

All of that then makes you more mindful and, you know, improves your health.

当你谈到期望，以及从某些事情上放下期望时，比如这个播客，我的电脑突然关机了。

When you talk about expectation and removing your expectation from something happening like, well, the podcast, my computer shuts off.

也许我不该做这个播客。

Maybe I shouldn't be doing this podcast.

我去吃午饭吧。

I'm going to go have lunch.

这并不是说‘也许我不该做这个播客’。

It wouldn't be maybe I shouldn't be doing the podcast.

而应该是：‘哦，既然现在没法顺利进行，那我先做点别的吧。’

It'd be, oh, well, you know, since I can't do it right at this moment, let me do something else.

是的。

Yeah.

这种思维方式中似乎蕴含着某种灵性，因为它建立在一种信任之上：事情总体上会顺利发展，或如其所应然地发生。

There is an element of spirituality that seems embedded in some of this thinking because there is a trust that things are going to work out generally okay or as they should.

你在描述改变我们的期望时，是否赋予了某种关系、信任或信念？

Do you assign any sort of relationship or trust or faith in how you're describing changing our expectations?

一旦你意识到，没有任何事物是独立于我们赋予它的标签而存在的，而这些标签是由文化赋予我们的。

Once you recognize that nothing is anything independent of the way we label it and that the culture gives us these labels.

我们不必接受这些标签，你知道的。

We don't have to accept these labels, you know.

举个例子，多年前有个学生，我们将‘受害者’这个标签改成了‘幸存者’。

So an example, a student years ago, we changed the label from victim to survivor.

差别很大，对吧？

Very different, right?

但其实就只是一个词的不同。

But it's just one word.

我们的语言承载着太多含义。

Our language is loaded.

它让我们产生了比我们想象中多得多的期望。

It leads us to have many more expectations than we presume.

你知道吗，小时候我们总是被告诉，现在很多人得了癌症都能活下来。

You know, you're told when you're young, and we used to, now cancer has been many people survive.

但在几十年前的旧时代，他们并不能。

But in the old days, few decades ago, they didn't.

所以你被教育说，癌症是致命的。

And so you were taught cancer is a killer.

那么，你是个关心这件事的年轻人吗？

So you're a young person who cares?

癌症是致命的。

Cancer is a killer.

于是你学会了，癌症是致命的。

So you learn cancer is a killer.

然后，有一天你家里的亲人，或者你自己，得了癌症。

And then eventually someone in your family, your parent, or you yourself get cancer.

你根本不会去质疑这一点。

It doesn't even occur to you to question that.

就像你发现质疑自己能否瞬间痊愈是如此困难一样。

Just as you have found it so hard to question that you might be able to heal instantly.

你知道的，这是从内而外的版本。

You know, the inside out version of that.

我不太确定人们说'灵性'时具体指什么，但很难想象毫无觉知的灵性状态。

You know, I'm not sure just what people mean when they say spiritual, but it's hard for me to imagine being mindlessly spiritual.

我的意思是，你可以处于无意识状态而被别人称为有灵性，但若要真正体验充满灵性的状态，你必须保持临在。

I mean, you can be mindless and somebody else can call you spiritual, but for you to experience being spirited, just spiritual, you have to be present.

而保持临在状态的唯一方式就是保持觉知，也就是要接纳世界的本来面目，并意识到我们所拥有的控制力，以及我们给事物贴标签的方式。

And the only way to be present is to be mindful, which is to take the world as probably to realize the control we have, the way we label things.

我们不应该绝对化地给事物贴标签。

We shouldn't label things absolutely.

你知道，如果你接受一个标签——再说一遍，当你年轻时看到‘年老’意味着记忆力衰退、衰老、各方面都在走下坡路，那么最终你就会活成那个标签的样子。

You know, that you if you if you take a label and again, you're young and you see, oh, old means loss of memory, decrepit, you know, going upon in so many ways, then eventually you wear that label.

到那时就很难再说‘哦，不，不，我当初并不是真的指所有那些含义’了。

It's hard then to say, oh, no, no, I didn't really mean all of that.

我们所学的一切都应被视为一种可能性，而非绝对的事实。

Everything we learn should be done as a probability rather than an absolute fact.

当我从身体上观察你们两位时，你们非常不同。

And as I look at the two of you physically, you're very different.

因此，当我现场演讲时，我常常会问，观众里有没有特别高的人？

And so when I give these lectures in person, I'll often ask, and there's always, it's amazing, I'll say, is there somebody very tall in the audience?

总会有至少六英尺五英寸高的男士。

And there's always a man at least six'five.

我会邀请他上台，而我只有五英尺三英寸，他却有六英尺五英寸。

I invite him up to the stage, and there I am at five'three and he's at six'five.

好吧，我们站在一起看起来很滑稽。

Okay, so we look silly together.

然后我简单地提出一个问题：我们做身体上的事情时，应该用同样的方式吗？

And then I simply raise the question, should we do anything physical the same way?

这似乎很荒谬。

It seems crazy.

I ask him to put his hand up.

I ask him to put his hand up.

His hand is three inches or more larger than mine.

His hand is three inches or more larger than mine.

Should we hold a tennis racket the same way?

Should we hold a tennis racket the same way?

All right, now so the point here is that the more different you are from the person who wrote the rule, the more important it is for you not to mindlessly follow the rule.

All right, now so the point here is that the more different you are from the person who wrote the rule, the more important it is for you not to mindlessly follow the rule.

And so if I'm five three and my hand is as large as it is and you're teaching me tennis and you say, here's how you hold the tennis racket.

And so if I'm five three and my hand is as large as it is and you're teaching me tennis and you say, here's how you hold the tennis racket.

Maybe I take it as, you know, as a suggestion, not absolute.

Maybe I take it as, you know, as a suggestion, not absolute.

Talk to us about how pervasive our world is that is based on these assumptions.

Talk to us about how pervasive our world is that is based on these assumptions.

It couldn't be more pervasive.

It couldn't be more pervasive.

不，我是说这就是我们当初制定规则的方式。

No, I'm suggesting that's how we came up with.

我之前说过，几乎所有人几乎在所有时候都是无意识的。

I said before, virtually all of us are mindless almost all the time.

你的父母教你这样做事情。

Your parents teach you this is how you do this.

在学校里老师会教——这个例子我觉得很有说服力——我问一加一等于多少？

Schools you're taught, this is the one I use that I find compelling, I ask how much is one plus one?

这是每个人都确信无疑的绝对真理。

This is the absolute that everybody is sure of.

他们说是二。

They say two.

但我说并不总是等于二。

I say but it's not always two.

首先我们要明白，如果你使用十进制，一加一才等于二。

First of all, we want to be sophisticated, one plus one is two if you're using a base 10 number system.

如果你使用的是二进制系统，一加一写作10。

If you're using a base two number system, one plus one is written as 10.

谁在乎数制呢？

Who cares about number systems?

你把一堆衣服加到另一堆衣服上，一加一等于一。

You add one pile of laundry to one pile of laundry one plus one is one.

你把一团口香糖加到另一团口香糖上，一加一等于一。

You add one wad of chewing gum to one wad of chewing gum one plus one is one.

你把一朵云加到另一朵云上，一加一等于一。

You add one cloud to one cloud one plus one is one.

在现实世界中，一加一并不像在数学中那样经常等于二。

In the real world one plus one doesn't equal two as or more often as it does.

那么，区别在哪里？

Now what's the difference?

所以在别人问你一加一等于多少之前，你就说二，然后就结束了。

So before somebody asks you how much is one plus one you say two that's the end of it.

不仅如此，你可能还会嘲笑提问者居然问出这么愚蠢的问题。

Not only that but you probably disparaged the person for asking such a silly question.

现在被突然问及，你突然有了选择。

Now you're asked all of a sudden you have a choice.

当你处于无意识状态时，你其实别无选择。

When you're mindless, you have no choice.

我可以说一，可以说二，也可以说十。

I could say one, I could say two, I could say 10.

你会留意情境并决定如何应对，生活因此变得更加引人入胜且充满趣味。

And you pay attention to the context and decide what you're going to do and life becomes more engaging and interesting.

我特别喜欢这个例子，因为两个人合作时——只要配合默契——能完成可能五个人都做不到的事。

I love that example because two people together can do things that, you know, maybe five people can't if their dynamic is right.

不过请和我们聊聊眼镜的例子。

But talk to us about glasses.

这个例子让我深有感触，因为我和眼镜有着不解之缘。

This example struck me because I have a personal relationship with glasses.

我很小就戴上了眼镜，但我从不完全相信自己需要时刻戴着眼镜，而且我们都陷入了眼镜的误区。

I got glasses at a very young age, but I've never really believed that I need glasses all the time and we're all under the fallacy of glasses.

人们几乎对所有事情都抱有这样的假设——他们追求稳定性。

People assume with almost everything that, they look for stability.

所以当你去看医生，给他看这张雪花状的视力检查表。

So if you go to a doctor and you give him this snowing eye chest.

这是一张字母逐行缩小的视力表。

And this is a chart with all the descending letters in size.

你在那些图表上看到的、脱离语境的字母，它们毫无意义，这与它们有意义的情况截然不同。

And what you're shown on those charts, the letters that are out of context, they make no sense, which is very different from if they did make sense.

它们是黑白的，不是彩色的。

They're in black and white, not in color.

我不知道你怎么想，但如果我饿了，我能在更远的地方看到那个餐厅招牌。

I don't know about you, but if I'm hungry, I can see that restaurant sign much further in the distance.

所以我们的动机和能力在一天中会发生变化，但医学界无法每时每刻都对我们进行评估。

So our motivations and our abilities change in the course of a day, but the medical world can't evaluate us every hour of every day.

所以我们做的就是被给予一个数字，然后保持这个数字不变。

And so what we do is we're given a number and we hold that constant.

让我给你讲个故事，这个故事引出了这些想法。

Well, let me tell you a story that led to some of this.

你知道，我以前戴过一只隐形眼镜，一只眼睛戴，这样我就能用一只眼睛看近处，另一只眼睛看远处。

You know, I used to have a contact lens that I wore in one eye so I would be able to read with one eye and distance with the other.

有一天我下班回家，准备上床睡觉，去摘那只眼睛里的镜片。

And one day I come back from work I'm getting ready for bed and I go to take the lens out of my eye.

摘不出来。

Can't get it out.

我快急死了。

I'm killing myself.

但后来我意识到，我根本就没戴过它。

And then I realized, though, I never put it in.

接着我意识到，我一整天都挺好的，从此以后就再也没戴过。

And then the next thing I realized was that I was fine all day, you know, and I never wore them again.

好的。

All right.

那么重点是什么呢？

So what is the point?

重点在于，如果我们允许的话，我们的视力是会变化的。

The point is that if we allow it, our vision will vary.

它会根据我们的睡眠时长、一天中的不同时段而变化。

It'll vary based on how much sleep we've had, the time of day.

你知道吗，如果你注意到自己看不清东西，然后说现在是下午三点，也许你只是需要一根能量棒——我们以前叫它糖果棒，但现在你可以心安理得地吃它了，因为它是能量棒——或者小睡一会儿什么的。

You know, if you notice when you can't see and you say it's 03:00 in the afternoon, well, maybe you just need an energy bar, which we used to call a candy bar, but now you can eat it guilt free because it's an energy bar, or a nap or something.

一旦你认为是视力出了问题，你就失去了其他选择。

You have choices that you don't once you assume it's because there's something wrong with your vision.

所以关键是，如果你去看医生，发现需要配眼镜，那就像吃了泻药一样。

So the point is, if you go to the doctor and you find out you need glasses, then it's like the laxative.

你就会每天、整天都戴着眼镜。

You wear the glasses every day, all day long.

你正在训练自己的眼睛看不见东西。

You're training your eyes not to be able to see.

记住，那个逆时针研究，当这些老人在不到一周的时间里，他们的视力得到了改善。

Now, remember, the counterclockwise study, when these are elderly men and in that time of less than a week, their vision improved.

因此，我建议的——而且在很多研究中我们都这样做，并在书中讨论过——是一种针对慢性病的心理治疗方法，我称之为关注症状的变异性。

So that what I suggest, and there are many studies where we do this and talk about it in the books, is sort of a psychological treatment for chronic illness, is what I call attention to symptom variability.

我们所经历的任何状况都不是恒定不变的。

Whatever we have doesn't stay constant.

无论是什么疼痛，它们都会变化。

Whatever aches and pains, you know, they vary.

这种变化可能很小，但确实存在变化。

Variability may be small, but it still varies.

那么问题来了，为什么？

And so the question is why?

为什么我现在比上一次感觉好了一点？

Why now am I a little better than the last time?

你知道，所以如果你用视力来做这个练习，为什么我现在能看清？

You know, and so if you do this with vision, why now can I see?

但在凌晨四点我却看不清，然后你就会思考可能的原因并加以验证。

But at 04:00 I can't see, you know, then you entertain possible reasons and you test them out.

因此我们发现，对于帕金森症、多发性硬化症、慢性疼痛等一系列严重疾病，我们只需通过提问就能掌控、缓解症状：现在感觉如何？比上次检查时更好还是更差？为什么？

And so we find that across a host of very serious illnesses from Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, chronic pain, a bunch of diseases of this sort, that we're able to get on top of, control, ameliorate the symptoms simply by asking the question, how is it now, is it better or worse than the last time I checked in, and why?

当你提出这个'为什么'的问题时，你正保持正念状态，这本身对健康就很有益处。

And when you ask that why question, you're being mindful which is itself good for our health.

所以我们会在一天中的不同时间打电话给人们，问他们这个问题：现在感觉怎么样？

So we call people at different times of the day and we ask them this question, how is it now?

是比以前更好还是更差？为什么？

Is it better or worse than before and why?

但人们也可以自己进行这样的记录。

But people can do that for themselves.

只需设置手机闹钟，比如一小时后响铃，然后过一小时四十分钟或两小时六分钟再响——时间长短不重要，关键是保持变化，人们通常都是这样做的。

Just set your smartphone to ring, ring in an hour, then ring in an hour and in forty minutes or two hours and six minutes, it doesn't matter, just keep varying it, which is what people do.

他们患有慢性病，认为症状会保持不变或只会恶化。

They have a chronic illness, They assume the symptoms will stay the same or only get worse.

你是否开始发现‘为什么’背后反映出压力或情绪状况的模式？

Do you start to find patterns in the why that reflects stress or emotional conditions?

是的，不管是什么原因。

Yeah, whatever it is.

通过提出这个问题，你更有可能找到答案，而不是不问。

By asking the question, you're more likely to come up with an answer than if you don't ask.

假设你感到压力，你以为自己一直都在压力中。

So let's say you're stressed and you think you're stressed all the time.

没有人会一直以相同的程度感到压力。

No one is stressed all the time to equal measure.

所以现在我会定期给你打电话，问你现在感觉如何？比上一次我打电话时更好还是更差？为什么？

So now I'm going to call you periodically and ask you how you are now And is it better or worse than the last time I called and why?

你可能会发现，你知道，你大部分时间其实都还好。

You might discover, you know, you're okay most of the day.

但当你和艾伦·兰格交谈时，情况就很糟糕了。

But when you talk to Ellen Langer, it's terrible.

在这种情况下，治愈方法很简单。

In which case the cure is easy.

别跟我讲话。

Don't talk to me.

好吧。

All right.

你知道，这无害，而且这是一种方式，我们通过逆转我们几乎总是做的——即让事物保持静止——来帮助患有严重疾病的人。

You know, so it's harmless, you know, and it's a way that we've helped people with very serious illnesses just by reversing what we almost always do, which is hold things still.

马不吃肉。

Horses don't eat meat.

一加一等于二。

One and one is two.

这就像在说，事情并非自然地在变化一样。

This is whatever it is as if things are not naturally changing.

你知道，在精神层面上，类似的说法是保持对更多可能性的开放态度，保持事物可能与我们想象中不同的可能性。

You know, the spiritual language for something very similar is to hold the possibility of something more, to hold the possibility that it could be different than the way we think it is.

我们以为的样子并非它实际的样子。

That the way we think it is is not the way it is.

如果我们以不同的方式思考它，它就会变得不同。

And if we think differently about it, it becomes different.

你谈到一个我深有共鸣的观点，人们总是通过使用的语言为自己设限，特别是那种带有‘尝试’意味的表达。

You talk about something that I really related to that people set themselves up with the language they use all the time with the notion of trying.

我对语言非常敏感。

I'm very sensitive to language.

所以我在书里专门写了一章，一个有趣的章节，我称之为《比更好更好》。

And so I find, you know, I have a chapter in the book, a fun chapter, I call Better Than Better.

我们有很多人，包括我的许多同事，都做了出色的研究，帮助我们从糟糕的现状改善到良好的状态。

And we have lots of people and lots of my colleagues do wonderful research to get us from here, which is bad, to here, which is good.

而我说，嗯哼，但其实还有更理想的状态。

And I say, Uh-huh, but there's a better place to be.

而'尝试'就是一个例子，'尝试'这个词。

And the trying is one example, the word try.

你不会尝试吃冰淇淋甜筒，而是直接吃冰淇淋甜筒。

You don't try to eat an ice cream cone, you eat the ice cream cone.

所以'尝试'这个词本身就包含着对失败的预期。

So the word try has built into it an expectation for failure.

因此放弃并不好，尝试比放弃要好，但比尝试更好的是直接行动。

And so giving up is not good, so trying is better than giving up, But better than trying is just doing.

当我们进行那项研究时，我的学生告诉我，哦，那就是尤达研究。

When we did that study, then my students informed me, oh, that's the Yoda study.

我说很好，也许会有更多人关注它。

And I said, good, maybe more people will pay attention to it.

我觉得最有趣的是，多年前有人邀请我在哈佛的一个教堂做布道。

The one I found the most fun was I had been asked, many years ago if I'd give a sermon at one of the Harvard churches.

我答应了，因为我几乎对一切请求都说好。

And I said yes because I say yes to everything almost.

但我是犹太人，我不信教。

But I'm Jewish and I'm not religious.

所以既然我已经说了好，那我该讲点什么呢？

So now that I've said yeah, what am I gonna talk about?

我想，我可以谈谈宽恕。

So I think, well, I can talk about forgiveness.

这不算宗教，但又有点宗教的味道。

It's not religion, but it's religion y.

你知道的，我可以蒙混过去。

You know, I could get away with it.

于是我开始思考，意识到一些大不敬的事情。

And so I start to think about it and realize something sacrilegious.

如果你问十个人，宽恕是好还是坏？

So if you ask 10 people, is forgiveness good or bad?

他们会告诉你什么？

What are they going to tell you?

这是好的。

It's good.

这是好的，对吧？

It's good, right?

如果你问10个人，责备是好是坏？

If you ask 10 people, is blame good or bad?

他们会怎么回答你？

What are they going to tell you?

这是不好的，对吧？

It's bad, right?

但除非你先指责，否则你无法原谅。

But you can't forgive unless you first blame.

嗯，这很有意思。

Well, that's interesting.

我们的原谅者就是我们的指责者。

Our forgivers are our blamers.

那么，你会因为好事还是坏事责怪别人吗？

Now, do you blame people for good things or bad things?

你会因为坏事责怪别人，但事情本身并无好坏之分。

Well, you blame people for bad things, but things in and of themselves are neither good nor bad.

那么，我们这里到底是什么情况？

So what do we have here?

我们有这样一些人，他们以消极的眼光看待世界，先责怪，再宽恕，充满神圣的善意。

We have people who see the world negatively, who blame and then forgive, heartily divine.

如果你选择责怪，那么宽恕总比不宽恕要好。

Now if you blame, it's better to forgive than not forgive.

但有一种更好的方式，就是我之前提到的：理解别人的言行从他们的角度看是有道理的，否则他们根本不会那样做。

But there's a better than better way, which is what I was describing before, which is to understand that other people's behavior makes sense from their perspective when they do it or else they wouldn't do it.

没有人早上醒来会说：今天我要变得讨厌、攻击性强、刻薄又无能。

Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, Today I'm going to be obnoxious, aggressive, nasty and incompetent.

所以，无论我们给某人贴上什么标签，总有一个积极的版本存在。

So whatever we're calling somebody, again, there's a positive version of that.

因此你或许会原谅我曾经的轻信。

And so you might want to forgive me for having been gullible.

当你意识到我本质上是信任他人时，这种原谅就变得多余了。

It's unnecessary once you realize that what I am is trusting.

而我无需原谅你的反复无常。

And I don't have to forgive you for being inconsistent.

相反，我更愿意欣赏你的灵活变通。

Rather, I prefer to value you for being so flexible.

所以一切都在改变。

So everything changes.

因此，如果你要指责，宽恕是好的；但如果你能理解，就无需宽恕了。

So forgiveness is good if you blame, but if you understand that obviates the need for forgiveness.

健康问题也是如此，有些人被告知病情正在缓解。

And it's the same thing with health, that we have people who are told that they're in remission.

当然，癌症处于缓解期比处于活动期要好。

Now, of course, being in remission with cancer is better than having an active case of cancer.

但他们为什么称之为缓解呢？

But why do they call it remission?

你知道，如果你感冒了，感冒好了，你会说你在缓解吗？

You know, if you have a cold and the cold is gone, are you in remission?

如果我们讨论‘缓解’这个词的术语含义，它意味着你的监测频率比没有癌症的人，或者普通人群要更频繁。

If we're talking about the nomenclature of what the word remission means, it means that you are under more acute monitoring than if you did not have cancer and then if you were part of the general population.

这意味着，是的，他们会检查癌症标志物，而在许多情况下，这些标志物可以表明你体内有正在生长、可能致命的肿瘤。

And it means that, yes, they're going to check cancer markers, which in many cases can indicate that you have a tumor that's growing that is going to kill you.

这只是对‘缓解’一词临床含义的解释。

That's just the clinical explanation of what remission tends to mean.

几十年前，医学模式认为心理学与一个人的健康无关。

Not that many decades ago, the medical model was such that they believed that psychology was irrelevant to one's health.

你生病的唯一原因是抗原的入侵。

The only way you were going to get sick was the introduction of an antigen.

所以你告诉一个人他们又缓解了，嗯，这确实比患活动性癌症要好，但我现在依然紧张得要命。

So you tell somebody that they're in remission again, well that's better than having the act of cancer, but now I'm still a nervous wreck.

它会回来还是会彻底消失？

Is it going to come back or not come back?

所以关键在于，你完全可以把自己看作已经痊愈了。

And so the point is that you can just as easily see yourself as cured.

如果你把自己看作痊愈了，你就会正常生活，而不是被对癌症的担忧所折磨。

And if you see yourself as cured, you go about your living rather than suffer the stress of worrying about the cancer.

假设你已经没有癌症了，但后来又得了癌症，从某种意义上说，这就像上次的癌症，因为我们仍然称之为癌症。

Now, if let's say you're cancer free and you get cancer again, in some ways it'll be like the last cancer because we call it cancer.

但从更多意义上说，它又和上次不同，这让我们能够把它们视为两种不同的情况。

But in just as many ways it'll be different from that, which allows us to see them as different.

感冒也是同样的道理。

Same thing with a cold.

你知道，当你从感冒中康复后，某种程度上体内可能还残留一些病毒，但你不会觉得自己处于缓解期。

You know, when you're cured from the cold, probably on some level there's still some remnant, but you don't see yourself as in remission.

当你再次感冒时，就不会像以前那样害怕了。

And then when you get another cold, it doesn't scare you as much.

这就是为什么我已经战胜了数百次甚至数十次这种情况。

That's why I've beaten hundreds of these or tens of these.

你能稍微谈谈普通感冒吗？

Can you actually talk a little bit about the common cold?

你知道，很多人会认为这很简单明了。

You know, that's one of the things that many people would assume this is cut and dry.

你接触了病毒，得了感冒，然后病毒按照它需要的过程完成它的作用。

You get exposed to a virus, you get a cold, and then the virus works through whatever process it needs to.

当病毒死亡后，你就不再感冒了。

And when the virus is dead, you do not have a cold anymore.

当人们以为自己会感冒时，因为我们让他们相信他们会感冒，他们反而更可能得感冒；而当他们不相信自己会感冒时，就不容易得感冒。

When people think they're going to get a cold, because we lead them to believe they're going to get a cold, they're more likely to get a cold when they don't believe they're going to get a cold.

这项研究需要被重复验证，但获得许可和完成这些研究需要很长时间。

And the research needs to be replicated, but it takes so long to get permissions and to get these things done.

而且这发生在新冠疫情期间等等。

And it was during COVID and so on.

让我们就认为，基于我们研究过的大量疾病、紊乱和健康问题，普通感冒也不会有什么不同。

Let's just leave it at there's no reason to assume with the wide body of disorders, diseases, infirmities that we have studied, that the common cold would be any different.

这很有趣，因为它回到了你之前暗示的观点——有些事情是不可能的，你知道，每个人都接受‘安慰剂’这个词。

It's interesting because this goes back to what you were implying before about what can't be, you know, that everybody accepts the word placebo.

每个人都清楚安慰剂是有效的。

Everybody knows that placebos are effective.

现在，安慰剂就是什么都没有。

Now, placebo is a nothing.

你吃下一粒没有任何药效的糖丸，却以为它有效，然后它真的让你康复了。

You take a nothing pill, sugar pill, and you think it's something and then it heals you.

当你感冒时，如果你相信自己吃的东西能治好你，你的身体就会以不同的方式运作。

When you have a cold and you take something that you think is going to heal you, you organize yourself differently.

这部分，或者说全部，都有助于康复。

Part of that, all of that, helps the healing.

乔纳森的运作方式就是如此，即使他生病了，他也一直说：我没病。

The way that Jonathan functions, even when he's sick, he just keeps saying, I'm not sick.

我没生病。

I'm not sick.

他只是有点脾气不好，有所有生病的症状，但他就是不承认自己病了。

He's just kind of grumpy and has all the symptoms of sickness, but he won't call it sick.

所以就好像他从来没生过病一样。

So it's like he was never sick.

但这件事还有其他方面我们需要注意。

But there's some other part of this that we have to pay attention.

有时候生个感冒还挺惬意的。

Sometimes it's fun having a cold.

你可以待在床上，看电视，吃松饼，如果你运气好的话，还会有人照顾你。

You get to stay in bed, watch television, eat muffins, have somebody take care of you if you're fortunate.

所以我们并不总是希望像我们以为自己应该希望的那样健康。

And so we don't always want to be as well as we think we would like us to want to be.

不过，乔纳森不喜欢别人照顾他，所以这很符合他的性格。

Well, Jonathan doesn't like anyone taking care of him, so that tracks.

这就是你之前问自己的那个界限问题。

Here's the limit question you were asking yourself before.

我猜你感觉感冒要来了。

My guess is you feel a cold coming on.

在那个时候，你或许可以，你知道的，选择右转或左转，从而在感冒全面发作前阻止它。

At that point, you probably can, you know, take a right or left turn and prevent that from happening once it's full blown.

但这么做更难，因为我们每个人对感冒该是什么样子都有非常强烈的想法。

It's harder to do that because we all have a very strong image of what it's supposed to be like.

要么喉咙痛，要么咳嗽，鼻子堵住，持续几天，等等。

Either our throat will hurt, will cough, our nose will be stuffy, you know, for a few days and so on.

你知道，全球大流行也引发了大量关于症状、病程等问题的讨论。

You know, having a global pandemic also introduced a lot of conversations about symptomatology and course and things like that.

而且，对于许多人，尤其是那些不支持，比如说，这个国家疫苗或疫苗接种计划的人，很多人说：我感染了，但我没事。

And, you know, for for many people, especially people who did not support, let's say, vaccines or the vaccine schedule in this country in particular, many people said, I got it and I'm fine.

但也有非常多的人感染后并不好受。

And there were many, many people who got it and were not fine.

关于既有健康状况的整个讨论就这样出现了，这很有趣。

This whole conversation about pre existing conditions came about, and it's interesting.

我被新冠狠狠地击中了。

I got hit very, very hard by COVID.

非常严重。

Very hard.

我这个人平时就有很多健康问题要应对。

I'm a person who, generally, I have a lot of medical stuff that I deal with.

我有两个孩子，其中一个在生理上跟我非常相似。

I have two children, one of whom is very physiologically similar to me.

他也被狠狠地击中了，而且我们的病程几乎完全一样。

He got hit similarly very, very hard, and we had almost the same exact course.

我的另一个孩子，更像他爸爸，直接说：别再问我了。

And my other child, who's more like his dad, was literally like, Stop asking me.

我很好。

I'm fine.

让我继续做我的事吧。

Let me go about my business.

所以我认为，这里还有一个非常重要的讨论。

So there's also, I think, such a huge conversation.

而且我认为在很多情况下，新冠疫情让很多人自以为是医疗健康方面的权威，甚至我们的政府在很多情况下也承认他们并非完全权威。

And I think COVID in many cases made a lot of people think that they were authorities on medical health, and in many cases even our government, I think, has admitted they were not the exact authorities.

是的，至于谁会受到什么影响，存在着太多可能的解释。

Yeah, and as far as who's going to get hit by what or not, there are so many potential explanations.

但我确实认为，如果我们随机将这些人分成两组，教导其中一组保持正念，并且他们能按照我描述的方式践行正念，那么他们的脆弱性就会降低。

But I do feel that if we took these people, randomly put them into two groups, taught one of them to be mindful, and they were mindful in the way I've described it, that they would be less vulnerable.

你能再谈谈安慰剂效应吗？

Can you talk a little bit more about placebo?

因为你列举了一些关于应用安慰剂效应的惊人案例。

Because you go through some of the most incredible cases of what it means to apply placebo.

膝关节置换术的假手术实验是一类案例，但能否请你同时谈谈膝关节假手术实验和帕金森病颅骨钻孔实验？

The sham surgery experiments regarding knee replacements is one category, but can you talk about both the knee surgery sham experiments and also the drilling the hole in your head Parkinson's experiment?

这些研究的非凡之处是普通读者想不到的。

They're remarkable for reasons that wouldn't occur to the normal reader.

首先让我感到惊讶的是，他们竟然允许进行这样的实验。

What's remarkable first to me was that they let them do this.

你知道，要获得哪怕只是给人们发一份问卷的许可都多么困难。

You know, you know how hard it is to get permission for even giving people a questionnaire.

在帕金森病研究中，患有帕金森病的人将接受手术，其中一组确实接受了手术。

But so what happens in the Parkinson's study, people have Parkinson's are going to have surgery and one group actually has a surgery.

另一组则没有接受手术。

Another group doesn't have the surgery.

还有一组接受了假手术，实际上只是在头上钻孔。

And yet another group is given a sham surgery where they actually drill.

手术 presumably 是为了帮助缓解他们的症状，对吧？

The surgery presumably is going to help with their symptoms, correct?

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

这就是为什么要这么做。

Well, that's the reason to have it.

是的。

Yeah.

因此我们有不同的期望。

And so we have different expectations.

如果没有手术，他们不应该期待好转。

Without the surgery, they shouldn't expect to get better.

如果有手术，他们就应该期待好转。

With the surgery, they should.

但其中一项手术是假手术。

But one of these surgeries is a sham procedure.

他们真的会在你的头上钻孔。

They actually drill into your head.

所以这一定是真实的，对吧？

So this has to be real, right?

因为这是致命的。

Because it kills.

我认为，这种手术让患者病情好转至少持续了两年。

That surgery resulted, I think, in people getting better for at least two years.

之所以是两年，仅仅因为那是最后一次对患者进行随访记录的时间。

And the two years is only because that was the last time they were, you know, they checked in on people.

现在有意思的是，如果你服用安慰剂后病情好转，然后有人告诉你那只是安慰剂，你通常会产生一两种不同的反应。

Now, you know, now when you it's interesting because if you take a placebo, if you're better with a placebo and then somebody tells you it was only a placebo, you have one or two different reactions.

有个人会说，天啊，我想我其实并没有真正好转。

One person, you know, oh my God, I guess I didn't really get better.

然后你又回到了原来的问题状态。

And then you fall back into whatever the problem was.

或者如果有人帮助你，当你自己无法做到时，你可以说：看，如果安慰剂、药片、手术或注射并不是真正帮到你的因素，那到底是什么帮了你？

Or if somebody helps you, if you can't do it for yourself to say, look, you know, if the placebo, if the pill, the surgery, the injection wasn't what helped you, what helped you?

要知道，是你自己做到的。

You know, you did it yourself.

并且意识到我们所有人都能给自己提供比想象中更好的医疗保健。

And to realize that all of us are able to give ourselves so much better healthcare than we think to do.

在很多情况下，我的意思是，我听过很多人说因为这个假手术实验他们不想做膝盖手术。

And in many cases, I mean, I've heard a lot of people say they don't want to have knee surgery because of this sham experiment.

那个膝盖手术实验是他们真的做了假的膝盖手术，而患者却康复了。

And the knee surgery experiment was they literally performed a fake knee surgery and people recovered.

我相信统计数据表明他们的康复率与接受全膝关节置换术的患者是相同的。

I believe it was statistically significant that they recovered at the same rate as people who had had an entire knee replacement.

你看这个诊断，任何诊断都只是一种概率。

You look at the diagnosis, any diagnosis is just a probability.

我们无法确定你不会看到。

We can't be sure you're not going to see.

有一定数量的人会自行康复。

You have a certain number of people who are going to get better on their own.

还有一部分人，无论患有何种疾病，都只是轻微症状。

We have a certain number of people who, whatever it is they have, they only have a small version of it.

你知道，你的新冠是大版本，而很多其他人的只是小版本。

You know, your COVID, the big version, versus many other people's small version.

我们之前也讨论过HIV的情况，关于如何确定真正的HIV阳性状态的标准，特别是涉及婴儿和跨国收养规则时。

We talked about this with HIV also, that the distinctions for what determines legitimate HIV positive status, especially when we're talking about babies and adoption rules across countries.

所以一个国家可能会说，这个婴儿不能用于收养，因为它是HIV阳性。

So one country might say, This is a baby that we cannot put out for adoption because it's HIV positive.

而另一个国家则会说，我们甚至不会将这个孩子判定为HIV阳性。

And another country would say, We would not even designate this child as HIV positive.

而且你知道，一旦被贴上某种诊断标签，你的行为就会大不相同，对吧？

And you know that once you're wearing a diagnosis, you behave very differently, right?

所以这是你问我的第一个问题之一。

So this is one of the first questions you ask me.

我的意思是，如果有人被告知患有癌症，他们就会从世界中退缩，为自己感到难过，或许这也是情有可原的。

I mean, somebody is told they have cancer, they withdraw from the world, They feel sorry for themselves or rightly so perhaps.

人们会疏远他们，因为不知道如何相处——虽然知道癌症不会传染，但说完'我很遗憾你得了这个病'之后还能说什么呢？

People stay away because they don't feel comfortable being, know, they know cancer isn't catching, but what do you say after you say, I'm sorry, you've got it?

所以他们的社交互动减少了。

So their social interactions are reduced.

他们自愿退出了大量其他人都在参与的、对我们有益的活动，你知道的。

They voluntarily withdraw from lots of the activities that the other and all of those things that are good for us, you know.

所以，如果你相信无论出于什么原因你都会好起来，你就不会去做那些反而让你状态更糟的事情。

So if you believe that for whatever reason that you're going to be Okay, then you're not doing those very things that take away from your being okay.

书里提到过一个男人的故事。

There is a story of a man, you talk about it in the book.

我直接念出来吧。

I'm just going to go ahead and read this.

他身上有橙子大小的肿瘤。

He had orange sized tumors.

这些肿瘤非常非常大。

These are very, very large tumors.

他被诊断只剩下两周寿命，医生给了他一种实验性药物。

He was given two weeks to live, and they gave him an experimental drug.

你能告诉我们这个人的经历发生了两次吗？

Can you tell us what happened to this man twice?

是的。

Yeah.

所以肿瘤消失了，然后他发现那种药实际上是一种安慰剂。

So the the tumor goes away, and then he reads that the drug was actually a placebo.

于是肿瘤又回来了。

So then the tumor comes back.

我们有个男人，被告知只剩下两周生命。

We had a guy who was told he had two weeks to live.

他被给予了一种被称为实验性药物的治疗。

He was given what he was told was an experimental drug.

这个肿瘤，按理说不可能消失，却消失了。

This tumor, which by all accounts should not have vanished, vanished.

后来他清楚地意识到，自己其实被给予了安慰剂。

He was then told, it became clear to him, that he had been given a placebo.