174. 皮克斯的幕后故事：《头脑特工队》的创作内幕

但问题是，总有一天会这样的。

But it's like, which at some point.

是的，会这样的。

Yeah, it will.

肯定的。

For sure.

那些东西也一样。

All that even stuff.

就像70年代他们提出电脑图形的时候，大家都觉得这太疯狂了。

Like when they presented the idea of computer graphics at all in the 70s, people were like, that's crazy.

只有人才能画出来，对吧？

It can only be human beings drawing it, right?

所以最终他们会说，AI可以做灯光，AI可以做服装，AI可以做这个做那个。

So eventually they're going be like, well, AI can do the lighting or AI can do the costumes, or AI can do blah, blah, blah.

但问题是，你觉得哪一部分必须由人类来做，你会说，不不不，这部分必须由人来完成？

But it's like, what is your thing where you're like, no, no, no, this part has to be human beings?

嗯，你知道，好吧，我一直在想这个，我们在看《埃利奥》的时候，我意识到我们有150位动画师。

Well, you know, okay, so I was thinking about this, we were watching Elio, and I was realizing we have 150 animators.

如果我要说他们中有多少人是真正出色的，我可能会惹上麻烦。

And I would say, I'd get myself in trouble if I try to give a percentage of them that are really brilliant.

回顾过去，真正出色的手绘动画师数量只有几十个。

If you look back in time, the number of hand drawn animators that were really brilliant was in the dozens.

就像极少数人，他们画得够好，理解动作的动态、角色表演，并且有正确的审美。

Like a very small number of people who could draw well enough, understood the dynamic of movement, character acting, had the right sensibilities.

就像迪士尼的九大元老，还有少数其他人。

That's like, you know, the Disney's Nine Old Men and a few others.

对。

Yeah.

所以并不多。

So not very many.

没错。

Right.

但我觉得电脑已经

But I think computers have

就算是九老，他们基本上就是九个家伙，拍了那些所有的电影。

Even the Nine Old Men is like, they're essentially like nine guys who made all of those movies

拍了几十年。

for like decades.

托马斯、奥利·约翰斯顿、米尔·卡尔，那些老一代的伟大的动画师。

Thomas, Ollie Johnson, what Milk Call, these great animators from the days of yore.

我觉得动画，更确切地说是电脑，让动画变得更容易上手了。

I think animation, computers rather have made animation more accessible.

所以我不需要成为一个出色的素描高手才能当动画师。

So I don't have to be a brilliant drafts person to be an animator.

我仍然需要表演和节奏感，但一些重活已经由电脑完成了。

I still have to have performance and timing, but like one of the heavy lifts has been done by the computer.

也许这也带来了一些其他的代价。

And maybe there's some other tax with that.

我得理解系统是怎么运作的，你知道的，但我几乎在想，AI会不会继续帮我们减轻作为动画师要承担的那些重担，然后把重点更多地放在表演上。

Like I have to understand how the system works and, you know, but I almost, I was wondering whether AI will continue to help us lift some of the heavy burdens that we have to carry as an animator and maybe put the focus more on the performance.

对。

Right.

就我目前看到的AI生成的东西，感觉就像你把所有东西都混在一起，给我一个平均值，然后把棱角都磨平了。

Everything I've seen with AI, at least so far, it looks like you took everything, shook it all up, gave me the average and sanded the edges off.

你知道

You know

我什么意思吗？

what I mean?

感觉有点平淡，就像，那大概就是熊的样子，但又不是任何一只具体的熊或人，你懂吗？

It feels kind of bland or like, that's sort of what a bear looks like, you know, but not any specific bear or person, you know?

我不知道以后会不会变，但AI看起来就像是最不惊艳的、平庸的平均值。

And I don't know if that'll change too, but AI seems like it is the least impressive blah average of things.

你觉得，我是说，总有一天，你上面的人会说，我们可以免费拍一部电影。

Do you think, I mean, at some point, the people who are above you, they'll go like, we could do a movie for free.

可以做一个皮克斯风格的电影，而且是免费的。

Could do a Pixar style movie, except it's free.

对。

Yeah.

不，已经有压力了。

No, there's already been pressure.

已经有，我是说，我觉得AI不会像那样，直接生成电影，然后完事。

There's already, I mean, I guess the way I look at it, I don't think AI is gonna be like, make film, enter.

它不会那样做，但它确实在训练所有东西，对吧？

It's not gonna do that, but it is being trained on everything, right?

对。

Yeah.

它听你所有表演和写的东西，还有——不，我知道。

It's listening to everything you've ever performed and written and- No, I know.

你知道——

You know-

而且它还在不停地笑。

And it's laughing and laughing.

它正在体验人类的情感。

It's experiencing human emotions.

很可能就是这样。

It probably is.

你知道吗，有趣的是，前几天我们在这里研究皮克斯的历史。

You know, what's funny is there was a, you know, were doing research here the other day on history of Pixar stuff.

然后推特上有一条很长的帖子火了，讲的是如何创作皮克斯式的故事。

And there was that like long thread on Twitter that went viral about how to make a Pixar story.

然后我遇到了——我没看到那个。

Then I met- didn't see that.

哦，好吧，你没看到。

Oh, okay, you didn't see it.

我跟你说过什么来着

I mentioned to What's

答案是什么？

the answer?

我们是怎么做到的？

How do we do it?

不，我跟Seth提过，他让我去问Pete。

No, I mentioned it to Seth and he goes, asked Pete about it once.

他说，那不是我们做的。

And he goes, That wasn't us.

我们没做过那个。

We didn't do that.

对。

Right.

是的，我觉得分析自己有点危险。

Yeah, I think there is something slightly dangerous about analyzing yourself.

对。

Yeah.

因为然后你，我见过一些人这样，他们准备演讲，把它包装成观众容易理解的样子，然后他们就被卡住了。

Because then you, and I've seen a few people do this where they put together talks and package it for easy to understand audience, and then they're kind of stuck.

对。

Yeah.

因为现实是，在每个阶段，抱歉，不是每个阶段，而是在我每部电影里，都会有个阶段，所有招数都用完了。

Because the reality is at every phase, sorry, not every phase, at every film I've worked on, there comes a phase where all the tricks have run out.

对。

Yeah.

我什么都试过了，还是不行。

I've tried everything and it still didn't work.

然后你做了别的事，结果问题就解决了。

And then you do something else and that's what solves it.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

就是这样，我觉得这是创作过程中必不可少的一部分，你就是在发现这个东西。

It's just, I think that's an essential part of the creative process that you're discovering this thing.

如果你从一开始就确切知道自己想要什么，首先，我觉得那不会太好，而且也没什么意思。

If you knew exactly what you wanted from the beginning, for one, I don't think it would be very good, but it wouldn't be very interesting.

本节目由Forkful赞助播出。

Support for working it out comes from Forkful.

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They're delicious.

说实话，生活一忙起来，吃得好真的很难。

I have to say eating well can be very difficult when life gets busy.

我现在就特别忙。

Mine is very busy right now.

很多时候，我都没时间准备一顿健康美味的饭菜，所以有这些餐点备着真的很方便。

A lot of times, I don't have time to prepare a nice healthy meal, so it's nice to have these meals on standby.

说实话，它们真的能救命，尤其是在忙碌的工作日。

They can be a lifesaver, honestly, especially on a busy workday.

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Eating well doesn't have to be complicated with fully prepared, deliciously healthy meals.

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That's forkfulmeals.com/berbigs, and use promo code Berbigs for 50% off.

感谢 Forkful 赞助本期节目。

My thanks to Forkful for sponsoring this episode.

本期节目还得到了 Article 的支持。

Support for working it out comes from Article.

我超喜欢 Article 的家具。

I love this Article furniture.

天哪，他们的户外家具真的超棒。

Man, they have really good deck furniture.

我最喜欢待的地方就是露台。

My favorite place to be is the deck.

哦，露台啊。

Oh, the deck.

任何露台都行。

Any deck.

我买了一把特别好的户外旋转椅，我强烈推荐。

I got this really nice outdoor swivel chair at I highly recommend it.

Article 有很多很棒的桌子。

Article has so many great desks.

真的，设计非常棒，很优雅。

Really, like, awesome, elegant design.

如果你需要一张新桌子，不管是办公室还是公寓，或者一张写字台，都可以看看 Article。

If you need a new desk for your office or your apartment, maybe a writing desk, check out Article.

他们的设计理念很用心，搭配起来特别容易，能帮你打造一个既协调又时尚的空间。

They have a thoughtful design approach that makes it incredibly easy to mix and match, helping you create a space that feels cohesive as well as stylish.

我觉得你要是上了Article的网站，可能会逛上好几个小时。

I feel like if you went on the Article website, you could spend hours there.

Article提供三十天满意保证，你可以放心购物，因为如果你不完全喜欢新家具，可以轻松退货。

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By the way, Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of a $100 or more.

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That's article.com/wio for $50 off your first purchase of a $100 or more.

在我读那本我们讨论的书《创意公司》之前，我一直不明白动画里的一个概念，就是七十年代他们发明了运动模糊这个想法。

The thing that I didn't understand about animation until I read that book that we're talking about, Creativity Inc, is this idea of like in the seventies that they created the idea of motion blur.

对。

Oh yeah.

然后这让动画看起来更像真人，因为画出来的东西基本上都是清晰的。

And then that made it like feel more like what human beings look like because drawings are essentially all in focus.

而人类的运动在人眼看来是模糊的。

And human motion is out of focus to the human eye.

所以这就像是一个突破，天哪，卡通片看起来有点接近真实生活了。

And so it was like this breakthrough of like, oh my God, cartoons feel like life a little bit.

对。

Yeah.

这就是为什么当你看到AI生成的图片时，有时它会加上运动模糊，感觉很奇怪。

And that's why it's weird when you see AI pictures and that it puts motion blur in sometimes.

没错。

Right.

它确实会这样。

It's doing it.

但确实，早期的定格动画，比如威利斯·奥布莱恩或者那些制作《金刚》的人。

But yeah, it's early stop motion like Willis O'Brien or some of the guys who did like King Kong.

真不敢相信我居然在说这个。

Can't believe I'm black on it.

哈里豪森，雷·哈里豪森。

Harryhausen, Ray Harryhausen.

很多那些作品都有点抖动，因为他们不知道如何处理快速运动的模糊效果。

A lot of those are kind of jittery because they didn't know how to blur fast movement.

对。

Right.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后90年代皮克斯出现了，基本上创作了第一批电脑制作的动画电影，对吧？

And then Pixar came along in the 90s and essentially created the first computer created animation films, right?

我是说，那算是他们的创新。

I mean, that's sort of the innovation.

我倒不觉得能把这点归功于皮克斯。

I don't know that I could credit Pixar for that.

我觉得还有其他人也在做早期的电脑动画，不过皮克斯确实算是第一个推出完整长度的电脑动画长片的。

I think there were other people who were also doing early computer work, but I guess Pixar foundationally has the first feature length animated film with computer.

对。

Right.

玩具总动员。

Toy Story.

玩具总动员。

Toy Story.

是的。

Yeah.

你参与制作的那部。

Which you worked on.

对。

Right.

太不可思议了。

It's crazy.

是啊，确实不可思议。

Yeah, it is crazy.

那真是难以置信。

Was a It was unbelievable.

你拿了奥斯卡奖？

You won the Oscar?

没有，我们拿了一个特别奥斯卡奖。

No, we got a special Oscar.

哦，我想是拿到了。

Oh, I think got.

因为那是在

Because it predated

我们还没有动画类奖项之前。

the We didn't have an animation animation category.

对。

Right.

哦，那是一个特别奥斯卡奖。

Oh, there was a special Oscar.

我们很荣幸获得提名。

And we were very flattered to be nominated.

这几乎更有意义，因为是在编剧类提名。

This is almost more meaningful, nominated in the screenplay category.

哦，那真的很酷。

Oh, that's really cool.

是的，而且感觉有点神秘，因为我们都不知道这是怎么回事。

So yeah, and it felt kind of mysterious because we were all going like, I don't know how this works.

这是关于那个点击点击的，你知道，安德鲁·斯坦顿，我记得收到他的邮件，我几乎看不清，有错别字和拼写错误，但不知怎么的，他就像，我正在弄明白这个。

This is for the clickity, clickity, you know, Andrew Stanton, I remember getting email from him with, I could barely make it out, typos and spelling errors and somehow along the way, he just like, I'm figuring this out.

然后他戴上眼镜，弄明白了。

And then he put his glasses on and figured it out.

哪一部分？

Which part of it?

你是什么意思？

What do you mean?

就是写作的过程。

Just the writing process.

在《玩具总动员》期间，我看着他从一个自称只是漫画家的人变成了作家。

During Toy Story, I watched him go from like, I'm just a cartoonist to a writer.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

他会带着一大堆关于写作过程的书来。

And he would come in with stacks of books about the process.

我们去了罗伯特·麦基的《故事》结构课，天哪。

We went to Bob McKee's story Oh structure my God.

所以你是说在《玩具总动员》之前，你们没想过要做长片，只打算做动画短片。

So you're saying before Toy Story, you didn't think about, you weren't gonna make a feature film, you were just gonna animate shorts.

然后你们开始考虑，长片的结构应该是什么样的？

And so then you started to think about, okay, what would the structure of a feature length look like?

是的，我们参与的人当中，只有一个人真正做过长片。

Yeah, I mean, of us who were involved had, there was only one that had worked on a feature really.

我是说，导演约翰·拉塞特，他之前参与过动画长片的制作。

I mean, John Lassiter, who's the director, he had animated on a feature.

他在《狐狸与猎狗》里做过动画。

He animated on Fox and the Hound.

你们看过那部吗？

You guys watched that one?

对，看过。

Yep.

我和安德鲁之前只做过短片。

Andrew and I had only done shorts.

乔·兰夫是我们故事组的负责人，他在参与《海底总动员》之前，其实已经在故事部门参与过故事创作。

Joe Ramf, who was our head of story, had actually worked on a story in the story department before he worked on Rescuers Down Under.

而且他还参与过《虫虫危机》和《圣诞夜惊魂》的故事创作。

But, and he was also had a story on James and the Giant Peach and Nightmare Before Christmas.

哇，太厉害了。

Oh, wow.

所以，在座的各位里，他的经验是最丰富的，遥遥领先。

So he had the most experienced by a long shot of any of us.

他经常说些类似“相信流程”这样的话，然后我们就问：“这到底是什么意思？”

And he would just say stuff like trust the process and be like, What does that mean?

我也搞不懂那是什么意思。

I don't know what that means.

而且说实话，其实也没什么固定的流程可言。

And also there kind of is no process.

然后当然，史蒂夫·乔布斯会过来做最后的润色。

And then of course, Steve Jobs would pop in and do punch up.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

不，我们在制作过程中几乎都没怎么见到他。

No, Steve, we barely saw during the making of it.

我记得第一次见他的时候，我已经在那儿干了三个月了。

I remember the first time I met him was like three months into working there.

他出现基本上就是为了解散硬件部门。

He showed up to basically let go of the hardware division.

好吧。

Okay.

所以那是个令人沮丧的时刻，但我得以一窥他所谓的“现实扭曲力场”。

And so it was a downer moment, but I got a peek into what they called the reality distortion field that he would create.

他就像在说，我们有一个光明的未来，然后每个人离开时都想着，嘿，这太棒了。

Was like, we have got a great future and everybody left going, hey, this is great.

我们刚刚解雇了我所有的朋友。

We just fired all my friends.

那真是太疯狂了。

So that was wild.

但之后大部分时间他都没怎么出现。

But then he didn't really show up most of the way through.

到了最后，他非常投入地参与我们如何向世界推出这个产品。

And then at the end, he was very heavily involved in how we were gonna roll this out to the world.

他对营销活动和广告之类的事情有很多意见。

He had a lot of opinions about the marketing campaign and advertising and things like that.

他怎么看？

What was his take on it?

你还记得吗？

Do you recall?

嗯，这很典型，史蒂夫。

Well, it's very classic, Steve.

你知道，很多时候动画，我们也有这个问题，就是放很多颜色，把所有角色都放进去。

You know, a lot of times animation, and we're guilty of this too, is like, just put tons of colors on it and put all the characters in there.

他就说，你只能传达一件事，简化它，保持简单，保持优雅。

And he was like, you can only communicate one thing, strip it down, keep it simple, keep it elegant.

他在这方面推动了很多，我觉得史蒂夫，你知道，我们会听到他在苹果的故事，然后他来皮克斯，大家都会有点后退，但他很温和。

He had a lot kind But of pushed in that I think Steve, you know, he would, we would hear stories of him at Apple and then he would come to Pixar and everyone would kind of back up and he was pretty gentle.

我记得我，我妻子说，你觉得有没有人请过史蒂夫·乔布斯吃午饭？

And I remember I, my wife said, you think every, anybody ever asks Steve Jobs to go to lunch?

我不知道。

I don't know.

所以我就试了试。

So I tried it.

然后我和他一起吃了好几次午饭，大概十几次吧。

And so he and I had lunch a number of times, a dozen or so.

有一次他告诉我，他希望自己死后能转世成为皮克斯的导演。

And one time he told me he hopes that he'll be reincarnated as a Pixar director.

那还挺有意思的。

So that was interesting.

哇，这太不可思议了。

I mean, that's outrageous.

确实，但那可是个梦想中的工作。

It is, but it is like a dream job.

我真的觉得，如果你从小有创造力，你会觉得梦想的工作就是成为皮克斯的导演。

Like I really do think like, you know, if you're growing up and you're a creative kid, you think the dream job would be, I'm a director at Pixar.

所以，这怎么可能呢？

So like, how is that true?

这怎么就不是真的呢？

How is it not true?

嗯，我本来想说，你应该去和那些皮克斯的导演聊聊，听听他们的经历，尤其是第一次做导演的时候，因为那个过程几乎像是专门设计来找出你的弱点，然后不停地戳它们。

Well, I was gonna say you should talk to some of the Pixar directors and hear their, especially the first time through, because what happens is it's almost feels like it's engineered to find your weak spots and pick at them.

多说一点。

Say more about that.

嗯，比如说，如果你做决定有困难，整个流程就是关于做决定的。

Well, like if you have trouble making decisions, the whole process is about decisions.

天哪，好吧，那太糟糕了。

Oh boy, okay, that's awful.

如果你没有安全感，整个流程会让你更没有安全感。

If you feel insecure, the whole process is going to make you feel more insecure.

如果你是个注重隐私的人，我们就会去探究，因为故事本身会暴露你所有不想谈论自己的事情，你明白吗？

If you're a private person, we're going to probe in because the story itself is going to expose all the things you don't want to talk about yourself, you know?

所以，我每次都会看，而且我会提醒新来的导演，跟你说清楚，这不是故意的，但这个过程会把你的弱点暴露给大家看。

So it's, I watch it every time that, and I warn new directors coming in, it's like, just so you know, this isn't intentional, but this process is going to expose your weak underbelly for everybody.

我们都会讨论这些。

We're all gonna be talking about it.

所以你必须得适应。

So you just have to be comfortable.

我们都会讨论，这倒是真的。

We're all gonna be talking about That's true.

我觉得这真是往伤口上撒盐。

I think that really drives the knife in.

我们都会

We're all

在午餐时讨论。

gonna be talking about over lunch.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

对，对。

Yeah, yeah.

你有没有什么建议，关于既要支持别人的愿景，又要保持诚实？

You have any tips for like supporting someone's vision, but also being honest?

我

I

觉得自己一般太客气了，总是说‘不，挺好的’。

think I'm generally guilty of being too nice of saying, no, it's great.

挺好的。

It's great.

就像你一开始跟赛斯聊的那样。

Like you were talking about with Seth at the beginning.

所以我觉得另一个极端是给人提八千条零散的修改意见。

And so I think the other extreme is giving people 8,000 disparate notes.

是的。

Yeah.

所以当别人让我评估某件事时，我会先记下所有要点，然后我会想，其实真正重要的就三件事。

So what I try to do when people ask me to assess something is first I make all the notes and then I go, well, this really, there's three things.

如果退一步看，就三件事，而且你不可能有超过三件重要的事。

If I really back up, there's three things and you can't really have more than three things.

对。

Right.

你给别人提意见时，遇到过最糟糕的反应是什么？

What's the worst reaction you've ever gotten to someone giving notes?

有一次，不只是我，我们给了导演一些反馈，结果他直接走出去，上车开车回家，说再也不回来了。

There was one time that, and it wasn't just me, but we gave notes and the director walked out and got in his car and drove home and said, I don't think I'm ever coming back.

他回来了吗？

Did he come back?

他回来了，是的。

He did, yes.

他确实回来了。

He did.

但那是——

But that was-

那真是难熬的一天。

That's a hard day.

那确实是难熬的一天。

That was a hard day.

哇。

Wow.

动画的一大好处就是它拓宽了故事可以讲述的范围。

Is one of the great things about animation is it opens up the scope of what a story can be about.

你有没有觉得，因为创作时没有限制，反而让创作过程更让人望而生畏？

Do you ever find that a more daunting way to create since there are no limitations to what you're making?

是的，我觉得，很多时候我们初稿的问题就是想法太多，你必须精简再精简。

Yeah, I think, I mean, so often our problem in the first draft is there's just too many ideas and you have to pare it down and just simplify, simplify.

然后你才意识到，哦，这只有九十分钟。

And you realize, oh, this is only an hour and a half.

那看起来时间挺长的。

That seems like a long time.

对。

Right.

就像他们能飞一样。

It's like the could fly.

他们可以当宇航员。

They could be astronauts.

他们可以，你知道，如果他们想的话，可以游一千英里。

They could, you know, they could swim Certain a thousand miles if they wanted

有些概念比其他概念更容易出问题。

concepts lend themselves to more pitfalls than others.

比如如果你有一个脾气暴躁的老头，你知道，我想有些人会觉得，我记得丹·格尔森，他是我在《怪兽电力公司》合作过的编剧，他看了之后说，狗在开飞机，哦，我不懂了。

Like if you have a grouchy old man, you know, I guess the thing that some people felt like, I remember Dan Gerson, who was a writer that I worked with on Monsters, he saw it and he said, the dogs flying airplanes, oh, you lost me.

那只是，你做得太过火了。

That just, you went too far.

就是这样。

That's the thing.

那就越界了。

That went over the line.

所以，你知道，我的意思是，如果主角是普通人，生活在我们的世界里，那就会有限制，对吧？

So, you know, but my point was you have a human in more or less our world that there's restrictions, right?

对。

Right.

我想我们最远也就是像那个用气球吊起来的房子，但其他像去太空或者某种奇幻世界，你说得对。

You're gonna, I guess the farthest we're going to go is like the floating house with balloons, but there are other things going into space or, you know, fantasy worlds of some sort that you're right.

你可以随便往某个方向走，但那是不好的。

You can just go often in certain direction and that that's bad.

比如我想到你的电影，就拿《头脑特工队》来说，你得想出这个不存在的平行宇宙的规则，但对我们来说它又是存在的，对吧？

Like when I think about your movies, it's like the world of Inside Out, for example, it's like, do you have to come up with what are the rules of this parallel universe that doesn't exist, but for us it exists?

是的。

Yeah.

比如《头脑特工队》的规则是什么？

Like what are the rules of Inside Out?

嗯，我是说，

Well, I mean,

我们一开始也不知道该怎么回答这个问题。

we started with I don't know if I can even answer that.

这是随着故事发展慢慢形成的。

It was something that evolved with the story.

有时候规则就是规则，直到我们发现，好吧，这个规则不能再用了。

And sometimes the rules would be the rules until we realized, well, that can't be the rule anymore.

我们得改掉它。

We have to change it.

他们必须能做这个或者那个。

They have to be able to do this or that.

然后你还得回头去保持一致，你明白吗？

And then you have to go backwards and be consistent with that, you know?

你不能在故事讲到一半的时候突然改变主意。

You can't just change your mind in the middle of a story.

如果你是在创作故事，只要前后一致，其实是可以的。

You can if you're making the story as long as it's consistent.

但那一定很疯狂，因为电影里有100个人在制作，甚至更多，对吧？

But that must be crazy because there's 100 people working in the movie or more, right?

一部这样的电影有多少人参与制作？

How many people work in one of those movies?

300人？

300?

对，通常300人。

Yeah, 300 usually.

所以，就像，你得说，嘿，大家注意了。

So, it's like, then you have to be like, hey, memo for everybody.

实际上，这些角色现在会飞了。

Actually, these characters can fly now.

导演的工作之一就是到处传达信息，比如，上周我说这里不该有口井，现在它有了。

That is part of the director's job is to go around like, know last week I said this is not supposed to have a well now it is.

对。

Yeah.

不过，导演这样的电影真的很难。

Not It's that is such a hard job though, to direct a movie like that.

有300个人，你得让他们相信一个不存在且不断变化的世界。

There's that's 300 people you have to convince of a world that does not exist all the time and changes.

这有点像军队的结构。

It's a little bit like a military structure.

有导演，然后有各部门的负责人。

You have the director, then you have all these heads of each department.

如果你跟他们沟通某些事情，他们可以传达下去。

And if you communicate to them about certain things they can disseminate.

传达，

Disseminate,

对。

yeah.

就是这么发音的。

That's how you pronounce it.

把信息传达给人们。

The information to people.

所以这让事情变得有点，我是说，我们有一支非常棒的团队。

So that makes it a little bit, I mean, we have an amazing crew of people.

你会不会从一部你构思并投入多年心血的电影中抽身出来？

Do you punch out of a film that you conceived of that you'd put in years and years on?

不会，我想有一两部我工作了几个月。

No, I think there were one or two that I worked on for months and months.

《机器人总动员》是我曾经两次尝试参与制作但都没成，后来安德鲁接手了，我当时想，如果你能让它成功，那就太好了。

WALL E was one that I had tried to get in to process like twice and it didn't go and Andrew picked it up and I was like, if you can get it to go, great.

换句话说，就是让它启动，开始工作，或者让它进入制作阶段。

Like in other words, get it to go, get to work or get it Get it into production.

是的，

Yeah,

没错。

exactly.

然后他真的做到了？

And then he did?

哇。

Wow.

对。

Yeah.

我们之前想出了一些点子，比如这个机器人在一个堆满垃圾的星球上，但真正把它做出来的是他。

We had come up with some of the stuff of, you know, this robot on a planet full of trash and, but he was the one that really cracked it, so.

当你在做类似的事情时，

When you're working on like,

就像我们说的，显然他导演、编剧，还负责其他所有事情。

like we're talking And obviously he directed and wrote it and everything else.

我只是做了最初期的工作，你知道，这有点像鲍勃·麦基说的，在卡内基音乐厅的台阶上吹口哨。

I just did the very early stuff, which, you know, is a little bit like, as Bob McKee says, whistling on the steps of Carnegie Hall.

就是说，有想法很容易。

Like it's easy to have ideas.

但真正要把东西做出来，让人们在乎，

But to actually get the thing to go and make people care.

那才是难的部分。

And that's the hard part.

这就是为什么，皮克斯经常被起诉，那些比较受欢迎的电影，不管什么原因，总是有很多诉讼。

That's why there, okay, Pixar has been sued quite often, the more popular films for whatever reason, they get a lot of lawsuits.

所以我觉得这总是让我很生气，因为第一，我们没有偷任何东西。

So I think it always makes me upset because A, we didn't steal anything.

就算我们偷了，重要的也不是想法，而是执行，是你花了五年时间琢磨怎么把它呈现出来。

Even if we had, it's not the idea, it's the execution of it, it's the five years you spent figuring out how to put that across.

对。

Right.

那才是真正辛苦的地方。

That's the hard work.

不，我完全能想象，因为当然，你知道，单口喜剧也是类似的情况。

No, I can only imagine because of course that's, you know, that standup comedy is a similar thing.

它给人一种错觉，就像‘哦，我前几天也想到过这个’。

It's the illusion of, Oh, that's something I was thinking the other day.

但事实是，你没能把它浓缩成在观众面前连续说出的七个字。

And it's like, right, but you didn't, you weren't able to whittle it down to seven words in a row in front of an audience.

而且你也没有把一生都奉献给站在人群前，每天演出后还要听自己的表演，以及所有那些工作，

And you didn't devote your life to standing in front of a crowd and listening to the show every day afterward and all the work that,

对。

yes.

没错，这就是单口喜剧的魔力所在，我想电影制作也是如此。

Right, that's the magic trick of stand up comedy, and I suppose that's the magic of filmmaking as well.

是的。

Yeah.

我们说到有

We talk about There was

一个很棒的，你知道，佩恩和泰勒，佩恩在《史密森尼》杂志上写过，他说：'如果一个魔术需要付出比任何理智的人愿意投入的更多的努力和精力，那你就会被它骗到。'

a great, you know, Penn and Teller, Penn wrote something in Smithsonian, he said, You will be fooled by a trick if it involves more work and effort than any sane person would be willing to invest.

对。

Yeah.

我们做的事情也是一样的。

And that's the same with what we do.

没错。

That's right.

这个看法真棒。

That's such a great way of looking at it.

对，你必须投入大量的时间，比如你在做《玩具总动员》的时候，因为那是皮克斯九十年代的第一部电影。

Right, you have to invest an extraordinary amount of time, like when you were working on, because you were, that's the first film from Pixar in the nineties is Toy Story.

你在做那部电影的时候，有没有觉得，哦，这将会成为主导？

When you're working on that, did you feel like, Oh, this is gonna be what takes over?

不，不，我完全，嗯，其实我从来没真正停下来想过，

No, no, I totally, well, one, I don't know that I ever really stopped and thought,

这会不会成功？

will this be successful or not?

我当时就觉得，哦，这挺有意思的。

I was just like, oh, this is fun.

咱们开始干吧。

Let's get going.

然后等电影上映后，我记得媒体总是问，你们预测多久之后真人演员会被电脑生成的角色取代？天哪。

And then once it came out, I remember we had the press would always ask, how long do you predict before real actors are replaced by computer generated Oh my gosh.

那是他们当时最大的担忧。

Was their big fear then.

还有，这会不会取代手绘动画？

And is this going to replace hand drawn?

我们对这两个问题的回答都是永远不会。

And we said never to both.

我们有一个判断是错的。

And we were sort of wrong on one.

我是说，手绘动画还是有的，但规模和精细度已经比不上当年迪士尼的水平了。

I mean, drawn, there's still hand drawn animation, but not at the same sort of scale and finesse that there was at Disney back in the day.

所以现在，但我当时完全不知道。

It's So, now but I had no idea.

我猜你是想问，

I guess you're asking,

你觉得在这之后，下一个可能是什么？

don't What do think could be the thing that's next after this?

就像七十年代有动态模糊，然后九十年代是电脑制作电影。

So it's like motion blur was in the seventies and then it's like, essentially like the films on computers in the 90s.

那么接下来会是什么呢？

And then it's like, what is the next

可能会发生什么？

thing that might happen?

迈克，如果我知道的话，就不会在你的播客上免费分享了。

Well, Mike, if I knew that I wouldn't give it away free on your podcast.

我完全不知道。

I have no idea.

你有一点线索吗？

Do you have any hint of it?

你觉得，我猜我在想的是，人们总是大力推荐VR，而我总是说，我相信你，你知道，有些人，你懂我的意思吗？

Do you think that like, I guess what I'm thinking of is like, people always make a strong case for VR and I'm always like, I believe you, you know, some people, you know what I mean?

就像我相信你，但我还没完全接受。

Like I believe you, but I'm not there on it.

不，不知道。

No, know.

每次你试的时候，他们就说，戴上这些眼镜，然后你的鼻子上开始有淤青，你在里面出汗，你会觉得，这真的不好玩。

And every time you try, they're like, put these glasses on and it starts getting a bruise on your nose and you're sweating under there and you're like, this isn't really fun.

而且我再也看不到坐在我旁边的人了。

And I can't see the person who's sitting next to me anymore.

完全同意。

Totally.

不知道。

Don't know.

那就没意思了。

Takes away the fun of it.

对。

Yeah.

但你会读那些关于未来主义的文章，或者类似的东西吗？

But do you read like futurism writing and things like that about that kind of stuff?

是的，我觉得已经有点令人沮丧的是，人们走路时盯着手机，其实已经活在虚拟世界里了。

Yeah, I mean, the thing that seems like depressingly already happening is that when people are walking around on their phones, they are in a virtual world already.

没错。

That's right.

他们走来走去。

They're walking around.

所以他们虽然在我们中间，但实际上并不在。

So they're amongst us, but not really.

对。

Right.

而且这看起来不会消失，因为它太诱人了。

And that seems like that's not gonna get, it's not gonna go away because it's very tempting.

收到别人的短信在某种程度上让人愉悦，我也不知道为什么。

It's pleasurable somehow to get texts from people and I don't know why that is.

嗯，它确实触动了……

Well, it's hitting, yeah.

它触动了我们的多巴胺中枢，对我们产生了影响。

It's hitting our dopamine centers and doing something to us.

是的。

Yeah.

但我不知道在叙事或电影制作方面会发生什么。

But I don't know what's gonna happen in terms of storytelling or filmmaking or stuff.

我也不知道。

I don't know.

我的意思是，这真是金融状况、技术和社会学的一个奇怪交叉点。

I mean, it's such a weird cross section of, you know, the financial situation and technology sociology.

我敢说，从远古时代人们刚开始会说话的时候，他们就会围坐在火堆旁讲故事。

I got to believe that so far as we can tell, people from caveman days when they could first talk were sitting around fires telling stories.

对，

That's

没错。

right.

我觉得未来两年内这不太可能改变，因为这可是延续了几百万年的习惯——

I doubt that's going to change in the next two years because that's a couple million years worth of-

是啊，我觉得这不会变的。

Yeah, I don't think that's changing.

我一直这么认为，所以电影永远不会消失。

That's my case always for film.

对。

Yeah.

具体会怎么呈现，我也不确定，也许会在别的设备上，但我确实觉得，尽管现在流媒体用得比以往任何时候都多，人们还是渴望或者能从和别人分享中获得满足感，你不这么认为吗？

How it is going to manifest, I don't know, it might be on some other device, but I do think there's also something people, even though there's more streaming than ever, there is something people crave or find reward in sharing that with other people, don't you?

没错。

Right.

哦，是的。

Oh yeah.

我是说，尤其是你，你不能让喜剧演员面对一个只有一个人的观众，即使那个人是在家里看，你也能感觉到观众的存在。

I mean, you, especially, you can't have a comedian with a one person audience, even when they're watching at home, you sense the audience.

这就是你为什么在那儿的原因，对吧？

That's why you're there, right?

没错，绝对是这样。

No, absolutely.

我觉得现在的现场脱口秀比任何时候都要火。

And I think like live standup comedy is bigger than it's ever been right now.

可能是因为人们不太去电影院了，但他们仍然渴望那种感觉，对吧。

Maybe because people aren't going to movies as much, but they still crave Right, the

就是和大家一起，一起笑的那种感觉。

being in a group and laughing in a group.

对，确实有点道理。

Yeah, there's certainly something to it.

我一直对皮克斯和迪士尼的关系感到困惑，皮克斯刚出来的时候，我觉得它就像朋克摇滚，而迪士尼更像是摇滚乐。

The thing that I was always confused by with Pixar in relationship to Disney was when Pixar came out, I was like, it's like punk rock to what Disney I would describe as like rock and roll.

那你和这两者有什么关系呢？

And what is your relationship to both?

后来他们合并了，或者一个成了另一个的一部分，你对此有什么感觉？

Then when they became one or one became a subset of the other, how'd you feel about it?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以当我接到电话说我们要被迪士尼收购的时候，你猜我在哪儿？

So when I got the call that we were going to be bought by Disney, guess where I was?

我当时正站在迪士尼乐园的河船上。

I was standing on the riverboat at Disneyland.

迪士尼乐园，当然。

Disneyland, sure.

所以一切都挺吻合的。

So it all sort of fits.

我当时心里有点复杂，既兴奋又不安，因为我有孩子。

And I was, part of me was like, oh, that's exciting and troubling at the same time because I was You with kids?

对，他们当时也在。

Yeah, they were there.

我立刻想到，这意味着我们可以进入档案库了。

I was immediately thinking that means we have access to the archives.

我们可以去看那些伟大动画师的所有画稿。

We can go look at all the drawings that all the great animators did.

那是我第一个念头。

That was my first thought.

真没想什么商业上的事。

Not anything really business wise.

我觉得史蒂夫·乔布斯当时知道自己得了癌症，快不行了。

I think Steve Jobs, he knew that he was dying of cancer.

对。

Right.

他希望这个地方有人好好照管，而且他确实考虑了很久，想我们能不能独立经营，但我想他觉得那样的话，我们就是要么成功要么完蛋，每部电影都是成败在此一举，风险太大了，就算他敢冒大险也觉得不行。

He wanted the place to be cared for and he did consider a long time the idea that could we be our own thing, but I guess his thought was that we'd be so sink or swim, every film would be success or failure that it just felt too dangerous even for a guy willing to take pretty big risks.

是的。

Yeah.

所以挂靠迪士尼，你知道，就能保证不沉船。

So tethering to Disney, you know, you're going to stay afloat.

对现在想当动画师的青少年，你最大的建议是什么？

What would your biggest piece of advice be for a young teenager who wants to be an animator right now?

那就去做吧。

Do it.

去做吧。

Do it.

去做吧。

Do it.

现在比以往任何时候都容易。

It's easier than ever.

我还说过，就像你不会让一个从没拉过小提琴的人上台，然后说你有天赋，今晚就去卡内基音乐厅演出吧。

The other thing I've said, like no one, you would never think of handing someone who's never played before a violin and saying, you have natural talent, your plan on Carnegie Hall tonight.

这需要多年的练习才能进步。

Like it takes years to practice and get better.

电影制作也不例外。

Filmmaking is no different.

并不是有些人天生就有才华，有些人就没有。

It's not like some people are born with talent and some people aren't.

我觉得这话有一定道理，

I mean, that's true to some degree,

但是

but

不管怎样，你都需要练习。

you need, either way you're going to need to practice.

你觉得，要成为最优秀的动画师，努力和天赋之间的比例是怎样的？

What do think is the calibration of hard work and talent that makes the best animators?

我不知道，这个问题几乎没法回答，因为我知道，而且我可以看看——比如，我妈妈要搬出她的房子，我们在翻旧东西，我看到了自己小时候的画，那些画说明我小时候并没有天生的天赋。

I don't know, it's almost impossible to answer because I know, and I can look at, okay, my mom is moving out of her house and we had looking through old stuff and I have drawings of my own and they're like, I did not have an innate talent as a kid.

对。

Yeah.

画得很笨拙。

It was clunky.

但不管什么原因，我有热情，而且我坚持下来了。

But for whatever reason I had the enthusiasm and I stuck with it.

所以我不知道这个比例是多少，是不是就是盲目的乐观，或者说，天赋确实会得到别人的认可。

So I don't know what the proportion of that is, if it's just blind optimism or, I mean, talent does get external reward from people.

他们会说，哦，画得不错。

They're like, Oh, that's a good drawing.

然后你就有了热情，继续画下去。

And then you are enthusiastic and keep going.

是什么让你，你知道，因为你在这些电影上这么多年，我猜你有时候一天要工作十五六个小时。

What is the thing that, you know, cause you've, I have to imagine that on these films through the years, you're sometimes working fifteen, sixteen hour days.

就是，当你凌晨两三点还在做电影的时候，是什么让你觉得，我们必须得做这个？

It's like, what's the thing when you're working on a movie two, three in the morning that's making you go, we have to do this.

我不知道。

I don't know.

那你呢？

What's the thing for you?

你就是觉得

You just feel

我觉得你得来上你的播客回答这个问题。

I'll like you have to do come on your podcast and answer it.

好吧，好吧。

All All right.

我不知道。

I don't know.

你就是觉得它必须得做好。

You just feel like it has to be good.

必须得做好。

It has to be good.

对。

Right.

你知道，布拉德·伯德说过，痛苦是暂时的。

How many, you know, Brad Bird said, Pain is temporary.

电影是永恒的。

Film is forever.

本次健身节目的支持来自Square。

Support for working out comes from Square.

Square是许多你喜爱的企业背后的平台。

Square is the platform behind the scenes of so many businesses you love.

无论是卖冰沙、理发、修自行车，还是经营精品店，Square都为他们提供一个集成的系统，用来收款、管理库存、发工资、开发票，并且在一个地方追踪所有信息。

Whether someone's selling smoothies, cutting hair, fixing bikes, or running boutique, Square gives them one connected system to take payments, manage inventory, run payroll, send invoices, and track it all from one place.

我和Square有长期的合作关系。

I have a long term relationship with Square.

Square就像一位老朋友。

Square is a sort of an old friend.

如果你在我的演出上买过周边，比如“请停止过山车”T恤、我女朋友的男朋友海报，或者“健身”马克杯，那你已经用过Square了。

If you've ever bought merch at one of my shows, a please stop the ride T shirt or my girlfriend's boyfriend poster or a working it out mug, you've used Square.

它非常简单。

It's so easy.

它非常方便。

It's so convenient.

每次我去用的时候，我都会说，有人带Square读卡器吗？

Whenever I go into it, I'm always like, does anyone have the Square reader?

如果你正在创业或者经营一家值得更好工具的公司，Square能帮你销售、管理、增长，而且不会拖慢你的脚步。

If you're starting a business or running one that deserves better tools, Square helps you sell, manage, and grow without slowing down.

现在，在square.com/go/brbiggs购买Square硬件，最高可省200美元。

Right now, you can get up to $200 off Square hardware at square.com/go/brbiggs.

网址是square.com/go/birbigs。

That's square.com/go/birbigs.

用Square更聪明地经营你的生意。

Run your business smarter with Square.

今天就行动起来吧。

Get started today.

《Working It Out》的赞助商是Warby Parker。

Support for Working It Out comes from a Warby Parker.

信不信由你，我们《Working It Out》的每个员工都戴Warby Parker的眼镜。

Believe it or not, everyone on the Working It Out staff wears Warby Parker glasses.

我们不是故意这样的。

We didn't plan it that way.

事情就是这样发生的。

That's just how it went down.

顺便说一句，眼镜很贵。

And glasses, by the way, are expensive.

处方眼镜和太阳镜的价格高得离谱。

The prices on prescription glasses and sunglasses are exorbitant.

但在Warby Parker，处方眼镜起价只要95美元。

But at Warby Parker, prescription glasses start at just $95.

我们为你准备了Warby Parker的专属折扣。

We got this Warby Parker discount just for you.

为什么不利用它来买一副备用眼镜呢？

Why not use it to get a backup pair of glasses?

哦，备用眼镜，真聪明。

Oh, so smart backup glasses.

我来告诉你Warby Parker最棒的地方。

I'll tell you the best part about Warby Parker.

他们每卖出一副眼镜，就会给需要的人送出一副。

For every pair of glasses they sell, they also give a pair to someone in need.

Warby Parker通过“买一赠一”项目，已经向需要的人分发了超过2000万副眼镜。

Warby Parker has distributed over 20,000,000 pairs of glasses to people in need through its buy a pair, give a pair program.

现在，在warbyparker.com/brbiggs购买一副处方眼镜，再买任何一副处方眼镜可享受8折优惠。

Right now, buy one prescription pair and get 20% off any additional prescription pair at warbyparker.com/brbiggs.

也就是说，去warbyparker.com/birbiggs购买额外的处方眼镜，可以享受8折优惠。

That's 20% off additional prescription pairs when you go to warbyparker.com/birbiggs.

健身方面的支持来自Mint Mobile。

Support for working out comes from Mint Mobile.

我们小时候，夏天意味着自由。

When we were kids, summer meant freedom.

没有作业，没有老师，没有学校。

No homework, no teachers, no school.

而且作为成年人，夏天依然意味着自由，这多亏了Mint Mobile的夏季促销。

And as adults, summer still means freedom thanks to Mint Mobile's summer sale.

现在，Mint Mobile的所有套餐都是每月15美元，连无限流量套餐也不例外。

Right now, all of Mint Mobile's plans are $15 a month, even unlimited.

所以，摆脱大型无线运营商那些花招和陷阱，改用Mint Mobile吧，享受高速数据和T-Mobile 5G网络的覆盖。

So free yourself from big wireless and their gimmicks and gotchas and switch to Mint Mobile for high speed data and coverage on the T Mobile five g network.

想要以每月15美元的价格获得新的无线套餐，就去mintmobile.com/brbiggs。

To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com/brbiggs.

网址是mintmobile.com/brbiggs。

That's mintmobile.com/brbiggs.

在mintmobile.com/brbiggs，把无线账单降到每月15美元。

Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com/brbiggs.

就这么简单。

That's it.

没有任何隐藏条件。

There's no catch.

预付三个月45美元，六个月90美元，或者十二个月180美元。

Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for twelve months.

需要套餐，每月15美元，税费另计，仅限初始套餐期限。

Plan required, dollars 15 per month equivalent taxes and fees, extra initial plan term only.

超过50GB后，在网络繁忙时可能会降速。

Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy.

包含最多20GB热点流量，需要支持热点的设备，可用性、速度和覆盖范围会有所不同。

Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot capable device required availability, speed, and coverage varies.

详情请见mintmobile.com。

See mintmobile.com.

好的。

Okay.

那么这是慢速回合。

So this is the slow round.

慢速回合。

Slow round.

你嫉妒谁？

Who are you jealous of?

我嫉妒比尔·沃特森，就是画《卡尔文和霍布斯》的那个人，他画完就说要退休，然后就从社会上消失了。

I'm jealous of of Bill Waterson, the guy who did Calvin and Hobbes, who drew that, said, I'm retiring and disappeared from society.

他真这么做了？

Is that what he did?

我是说，没人真正知道他在哪儿，因为他就是不想引起公众注意。

I mean, nobody really knows where he is because he just doesn't want the public attention.

对，他不上播客。

That's He doesn't podcasts.

嗯，对，他不做。

Well, no, he's not.

确实是这样。

That is true.

而且我觉得他是故意的，他就是想待在家里，然后

And I think on purpose, he's just like, I get to stay home and

他躲在桌子底下，但我们就是不知道桌子在哪儿。

He's hiding under his desk, but we just don't know where the desk is.

你收到过的最好的建议是什么，而且你实际用上了？

What's the best piece of advice you've been given that you used?

嗯，塞斯的，

Well, Seth's,

不要只告诉别人你的感受，告诉他们你的经历，你是怎么体验的。

don't just tell people how you feel about it, tell them your experience, how you experienced it.

你是怎么体验的，对。

How you experienced it, yeah.

那在你的职业生涯中呢？

What about in your career?

有没有什么关于职业的建议是你实际用过的？

Any piece of advice about your career that you used?

我觉得你就像站在你决定攀登的那座山的山顶上，在攀登的过程中，有没有人跟你说过，嘿，坚持下去，因为……

Like, I feel like you're at the top of the mountain, of the mountain that you decided to climb up and was there any point along the way that someone goes, Hey, stick with it because of this?