Bitwise 刚刚推出了下一代链上投资产品

你看。

Look.

我觉得我们才刚刚开始迎接这轮牛市。

I think that we're just getting started for this next bull market.

比特币又开始它的表演了。

Bitcoin is bitcoining again.

FOMO情绪非常强烈，而且Bitwise推出了一个叫“自动代币组合”的东西。

The FOMO is intense, and Bitwise has launched something called Automated Token Portfolios.

但这到底是什么意思，你需要了解些什么呢？

But what does that mean, and what do you need to know about it?

大家好，欢迎收听Milk Road Show，这档播客深知，所谓自动代币组合，不过就是你在历史上最大的一次空头挤压中，凌晨两点不停刷新CoinGecko时的说法。

Hello, and welcome to the Milk Road Show, the podcast that knows that automated token portfolios is just what you call it when you're refreshing CoinGecko over and over at 2AM during the largest short squeeze in history.

我是主持人John Gillen，今天我们请到了Ryan Rasmussen。

I'm your host, John Gillen, and today we are joined by Ryan Rasmussen.

Ryan是Milk Road的朋友，也是Bitwise的研究主管。

Ryan is a friend of Milk Road and the head of research at Bitwise.

他今天会跟我们分享很多干货。

He's gonna share a ton of alpha with us today.

他从伦敦回来了，带来了很多好消息。

He's back from London with lots of good news.

如果你觉得不错，记得点赞和订阅。

If that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe.

把这期节目分享给会喜欢的朋友吧。

Share this episode with somebody who's gonna enjoy it.

提醒一下，我们今天的播客是免费的，这要感谢我们的合作伙伴saber.money，一个面向亚洲的稳定币支付平台。

And as a reminder, our podcast today is free, and that would not be possible without our wonderful partners at saber.money, the stablecoin payments platform built for Asia.

所以稍后在节目中，请留意更多关于他们的信息。

So keep an ear out for more information about them later in the show.

但现在，欢迎回到Milk Road Show，Ryan Rasmussen。

But for now, welcome back to the Milk Road Show, Ryan Rasmussen.

你好吗，先生？

How are you, sir?

能来这里我很高兴，约翰。

It's great to be here, John.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thanks for having me.

我在推特上发了，说这是一期紧急播客，你今天早上特别抢手。

I I posted on Twitter this is an emergent an emergency podcast, and you are in high demand this morning.

所以我们时间不多，但很高兴今天能和你聊聊这件事。

So we're not gonna have too much time, but I'm glad we could get on with you to discuss this today.

Bitwise 推出了一个叫“自动代币组合”的东西。

Bitwise has launched something called Automated Token Portfolios.

我想直接开始聊这个，因为我知道你肯定在想这个。

I I just wanted to jump right in with this conversation because I'm sure this is what's on your mind.

这些是机构设计的代币化股票模型组合，直接放在加密钱包里。

But these are institutionally designed model portfolios for tokenized stocks directly in a crypto wallet.

给我多讲讲这个产品吧。

Tell me a little bit more about this product.

关于这里发生的事情，我们需要了解什么？

What do we need to know about what's happening here?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我对自动化代币组合的推出感到非常兴奋，我们称之为ATP。

Well, I'm very excited about the launch of Automated Token Portfolios or ATPs as as we're calling them.

你看。

Look.

Bitwise已经存在了十多年，我们开创了加密货币指数投资。

Bitwise has been around for over a decade, and we pioneered crypto index investing.

我们开创了现货加密货币ETF投资。

We we pioneered spot crypto ETF investing.

今天，我们推出了自动化代币组合，这是一种通过一键点击，在您的钱包中以模型组合的形式获得机构设计的投资策略的方式。

And today, we're launching Automated Token Portfolios, which is a way to get institutional designed investment strategies in your wallet, in a model portfolio with a single click of a button.

我们非常高兴能与Coinbase和Glider合作推出这一产品，并再次开创一种新的方式，让投资者能够在他们的钱包中获取加密货币，现在也包括传统股票。

And we're really excited to partner with Coinbase and Glider in launching this and once again pioneer a new way for investors to get access to crypto and now traditional stocks in their wallets.

好的。

Okay.

所以这里有好几个合作伙伴。

So there's multiple partners here.

昨天Coinbase和Base发布的公告是关于代币化股票的，这是其中的一部分。

The the announcement yesterday from Coinbase and Base was about tokenized stocks, and that's one part of this.

Bitwise负责设计模型投资组合。

Bitwise is designing the model portfolios.

Glider负责另一部分。

Glider is doing another part.

跟我聊聊这三个实体，它们是如何在这个产品上合作的，以及它们在这个产品上是怎么汇聚到一起的。

Talk to me a little bit about these three entities and how they're partnering together on this offering and just where they all come together on this on this product here.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这是我们三个合作伙伴各自专业领域的一个很好的协同。

Well, I think it's a beautiful synergy across all of our areas of expertise across these these three different partners.

Bitwise负责设计投资策略。

Bitwise designs the investment strategy.

我们一直在设计多元化的方式，让投资者能够接触到不同的加密资产和加密主题，无论是排名前十的加密资产、DeFi资产，还是加密股票。

So we've been designing diversified ways for investors to get exposure to different crypto assets and different crypto themes, whether those are top 10 crypto assets or DeFi assets or crypto equities.

我们做这件事已经超过十年了。

We've been doing that for over a decade.

Coinbase当然也是这个领域的领导者之一，时间一样长甚至更久。

Coinbase, of course, has been one of the leaders in the space for as long or longer.

而Glider则是链上业务的一个优秀基础设施提供商。

And then Glider is a great infrastructure provider for onchain things.

这三者的结合方式就是，Bitwise设计投资策略。

The way this comes together is that Bitwise designs the investment strategy.

今天，我们推出了三款产品：Bitwise Mag七倍杠杆ETF、Bitwise机器人ETF和Bitwise AI领导者ETF。

Today, we launched with three, the Bitwise Mag seven x ATP, the Bitwise Robotics ATP, and the Bitwise AI Leaders ATP.

这是三种不同的主题策略，让投资者能够接触到这些类别中的领先者。

These are three different thematic strategies that provide investors access to leaders in those categories.

所以我们设计策略，包括里面包含什么、什么时候重新平衡等等。

So we design the strategies including what goes into them, when they rebalance, etcetera.

我们通过Coinbase的代币化股票平台来实现这一点，这样你就能获得一比一对应的股票敞口。

We use Coinbase's tokenized stocks platform to do this, which gives you one to one backed exposure to stocks.

你能拿到分红，也能拥有所有权，等等。

You get the dividend, you get the ownership rights, etcetera.

然后Glider的底层技术负责实现重新平衡和策略跟随，让投资者能在自己的加密钱包里获得这些敞口。

And then Glider's underlying technology is what enables the rebalancing and strategy following for investors who wanna gain exposure to these in their crypto wallet.

所以这三部分加起来，就是这种新的ATP结构。

So the sum of the three parts is this new ATP structure.

Bitwise开创策略，Coinbase开创代币化股票，Glider开创链上基础设施。

Bitwise pioneering the strategies, Coinbase pioneering tokenized stocks, and Glider pioneering the onchain infrastructure.

我在这里插一句，我们要延长Milk Road Pro的优惠期。

I'm just gonna interrupt here for a second to say that we are extending the Milk Road Pro offer.

昨天本来应该涨60%的。

Yesterday, it was supposed to go up by 60%.

价格本来要从每月25美元涨到39美元，但很多会员因为来不及加入，所以我们决定把优惠延长一天。

The price was going from 25 to $39 a month, but we're actually extending it by a day by request of many members who were late to get in.

所以，加入后你可以接触到我们所有的五位分析师，他们实时发出的交易信号。

So with that, you get access to all five of our analysts, real time trade calls from them.

这些在其他地方只能通过邮件获取。

You can get that by email everywhere else.

还有我们的专业平台，他们每天更新动态，当然还有他们的完整投资组合，展示他们如何为即将到来的牛市做准备。

Our pro platform where they write updates every day, and, of course, their full portfolios where they show you how they are preparing for these amazing bull markets that are coming.

所以，赶紧在今晚午夜东部时间之前，通过下面的链接加入Milk Road Pro，否则价格就要上涨60%了，千万别错过。

So get into Milk Road Pro before it goes up by 60% at the link below tonight, midnight eastern is the actual deadline, so do not miss that.

好的。

Okay.

那我梳理一下，确认我没理解错。

So let me just break this down and make sure I have this correct.

所以有Coinbase。

So there's Coinbase.

他们是持有股票托管的那一方。

They are the ones with the custody of the stock.

他们在Base上有一个对应的代币化版本。

They have a tokenized version of that on base.

然后Bitwise是负责组建那个资产管理ATP的。

And then Bitwise is the one putting together the the asset management ATP.

当Bitwise在ATP里做出任何调整时，Glider作为基础设施，能让这些调整自动同步给所有投资ATP的人，他们完全不用自己动手操作。

And then when Bitwise makes a change to to whatever they're doing in that ATP, then Glider is the infrastructure that in change that enables that change to follow along with whoever's invested in the ATP without them having to touch it or do anything.

我说的对吗？

Do I have that right?

基本上就是这么运作的吧？

Is that basically the general idea how this works?

对。

Yeah.

完全正确，约翰。

That's exactly right, John.

你说得太对了。

You nailed it.

好的。

Okay.

不错。

Cool.

我只是想确认一下，因为这些信息来得太快了，而且这是今天早上刚公布的，所以我得跟上节奏。

I just wanna make sure because this these things come at you fast, and this just got announced this morning, so I'm trying to keep up with things here.

好的。

Okay.

那跟我聊聊你对这个产品未来增长的愿景吧。

So talk to me about what the the vision is for the growth of this.

现在市场上已经有三个这样的产品在运行了。

You've got three of these on the market live right now.

而且，从投资者需要了解这个产品未来的角度来看，你觉得它有什么令人兴奋的地方？你看到它接下来会怎么发展？

And and what what is this is, I think, like, exciting in terms of what investors need to know about the future of this product and and where you see this going from here?

对。

Yeah.

嗯，我觉得ATP是金融市场的未来。

Well, I think ATPs are the future of financial markets.

想想资产管理的发展历程，以及投资者如何获得股票市场或其他资产的敞口，这真的在过去一百年里发展了很多。

If you think about the journey of asset management and how investors have gained exposure to the stock market or other assets, it's really developed over the past hundred years.

从共同基金开始，然后是指数基金，接着是ETF，现在到了ATP。

It started with mutual funds, then we saw index funds, then ETFs, and today, ATPs.

在这些基金结构的每一次演变中，它们之所以成功并获得投资者的采用，是因为它们更便宜、更容易获得，而且在税收和成本方面更高效。

In each of these evolutions of these fund structures, the reason that they were successful and got adoption from investors is because they were cheaper, more accessible, and more cost more efficient from a tax and cost perspective.

而且它们只是更好的工具，用来获得主题或资产类别的敞口。

And they were just better wrappers for gaining exposure to themes or asset classes.

ATP利用区块链技术，通过代币化，通过Coinbase，通过Glider，为投资者提供这些类型的结构，这些结构更便宜，全天候运行，让他们能够获得不同主题的敞口。

And ATPs is using blockchain technology through tokenization, through Coinbase, through Glider to provide access to investors in these types of structures that are less expensive, that are twenty four seven, three six five, that allow them to gain exposure to different themes.

以前，链上基本上只有加密资产。

Previously, onchain, it was basically crypto assets.

今天，是代币化的股票。

Today, it's tokenized stocks.

未来，我们相信所有资产都会代币化。

In the future, we believe it will be all tokenized assets.

随着世界转向链上，我们认为资产管理的下一个演进就是ATP。

And as the world moves on chain, we think the next evolution of asset management is ATPs.

我们觉得ATP之所以重要，还有其他原因，也认为它会发展成一个数万亿美元的资产类别，相比ETF或共同基金，我很乐意深入聊聊这些。

There's other reasons why we think ATPs are such a big deal and why we think we'll see this grow into a multi trillion dollar asset class relative to ETFs or mutual funds, and I'd be happy to to dive into some of those.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，我觉得这正好是个很好的下一个问题，因为我想很多人都在好奇这个。

Well, I think that may be a great next question then because, like, I think this is a question a lot of people are wondering.

你知道，投资者已经有多种方式投资股票了。

You know, there's already already a lot of ways for investors to get exposure to equities.

那这个产品和ETF、或者直接持有现货股票有什么区别呢？

Differentiate this product for me from an ETF, from just holding a spot stock?

那跟我聊聊，ATPs有什么特别之处，是大家应该知道的？

And just talk to me a little bit about what's distinctive about ATPs that people should know about.

这确实是个很有意思的问题。

It's it's a it's a really interesting question.

对吧？

Right?

因为你说得对。

Because you're right.

现在，很多投资者通过他们的券商账户或手机应用就能买卖股票，而且大多数美国投资者今天都能接触到各种股票。

Today, so many investors have access to stocks through their brokerage account or through apps on their phone, And most US investors today can get exposure to to any equities.

但如果你想想全球的投资者，要接触美国股市——这个全球最大、拥有全球最大公司的市场——就困难得多，也贵得多。

But if you think about investors globally, it's much more difficult and much more expensive to gain exposure to The US stock market, which is the largest stock market in the world and host the largest companies in the world.

现在，只要有一个加密钱包，你就可以通过ATPs或者通过ATPs持有这些股票的投资组合，来获得这些股票的敞口。

Now with a crypto wallet, you can gain exposure to those stocks through ATPs or model portfolios that hold those stocks through ATPs.

而且，想想ETPs，对吧，它让你通过券商账户就能投资单一资产或一篮子资产，但它们只在市场交易时间内交易。

And if you think about ETPs, right, that gives you exposure to a single asset or a basket of assets through your brokerage account, but they trade on market hours.

对于非美国投资者来说，这些很难接触到。

They are hard to access for non US investors.

而且ETF的上市时间，我觉得这一点非常重要。

And the time to market for an ETF, and I think it's a really important point.

从ETF发行方向SEC提交申请到产品正式上市，最短需要75天。

The time to market for an ETF is a minimum of seventy five days from an ETF issuer files with the SEC to when the product goes live.

这意味着对于主题投资来说，当ETF发行方看到某个主题开始升温、势头起来，然后提交申请，等到75天后产品上市，你可能已经错过了最佳时机。

And what that means for things like thematic investing is that by the time an ETF issuer sees a theme picking up speed and momentum, then files the ETF, when it goes live seventy five days later, you may have missed the party.

我喜欢这样比喻：ETF到场时，晚餐已经上桌了，而ATP在开胃菜阶段就到了。

The way I I like to think about it is that ETFs arrive at the party after dinner is served, but ATPs arrive during the hors d'oeuvres.

这对那些希望在特定主题崛起初期就获得敞口的投资者来说，是一个很大的区别，而不是像那些必须等ETF上市、在主题末期才获得敞口的投资者。

And that's a big difference for investors who want exposure early on in the rise of a specific theme rather than investors who have to wait for an ETF to come around and get exposure at the end of it.

举个例子，75天前，如果你是ETF发行方，要提交一个主题ETF，那时候“态势感知”正是热门话题。

And just an example of that is seventy five days ago, if you're an ETF issuer and you're filing a thematic ETF, situational awareness was all the hype.

对吧？

Right?

那些股票和那些投资当时都是热门话题。

And those those stocks and those investments were all the hype.

但如果快进到今天，也就是第75天，市场环境已经和那时大不相同了。

But if you fast forward today, in today's day 75, right, it's a much different market environment than it was then.

这就是投资者通过接触ATPs来弥补的差距。我们很乐意在Bitwise开创这些策略，为市场提供更具反应性和反思性的策略，以应对我们所处的这些快速变化、不断演变的市场。

That's the gap that investors are closing being able to access ATPs, we're happy to pioneer the strategies at Bitwise to help give more reactive and reflective strategies to the market for what's happening in these, you know, fast moving, ever evolving markets we find ourselves in.

跟我聊聊这个过程吧，因为你说Bitwise在策划这些ATPs。

Talk to me a little bit about that process because you said Bitwise is curating these ATPs.

这个过程是什么样的？

What is that process like?

是不是每天就你和Matt还有团队在往ATPs里加东西，或者把它们拿出来，或者重新平衡？

Is this just you and Matt and the team every day either adding things to the ATP or taking them out or rebalancing them?

你们是怎么做的？

How do you guys do that?

对于市场的新信息，你们的反应机制是什么？然后Bitwise又是如何对ATPs进行更新或调整的？

What what is the reaction function in terms of new information from the market and then Bitwise making updates or changes to the ATPs?

约翰，这个问题问得好。

It's a it's a great question, John.

这让市场在产品层面上的反应快多了。

This is making the market so much more reactive to what's going on from a product perspective.

这一点我怎么强调都不为过。

I I really can't emphasize that enough.

我们今天推出的三只产品，就是我刚才提到的MAG七倍ATP。

So the three that we launched today, I mentioned are the MAG seven x ATP.

就是MAG七只股票加上SpaceX。

That's the MAG seven stocks plus SpaceX.

然后是Bitwise机器人ATP，它等权重配置了那些在机器人设计、制造和部署方面的领先公司。

Then the Bitwise Robotics ATP gives you equal weighted exposure to the leading companies that are designing, manufacturing, and deploying robotics.

还有AI领导者ETP，让你能接触到AI领域的头部公司。

And then AI leaders, ETP, which gives you access to the leaders in the AI space.

目前，这些产品都设定了自动再平衡的日程。

Now today, we have these set up on an automatic rebalancing schedule.

可以是每月，也可以是每季度，但你可以想象不同类型的策略、再平衡周期或触发条件，这些都可以由Glider的技术自动执行。

It could be monthly, could be quarterly, but you could imagine different types of strategies, rebalancing periods or triggers that automatically are executed by Glider's technology.

比如说，如果你想在加密货币或股票市场里进行亏损收割，因为波动性一直很高，所以有很多机会可以这么做。

For instance, if you want to harvest losses both in crypto or in equities market as volatility has been so high, there's been many opportunities to do that.

我们可以为投资者构建一个自动执行这种操作的ATP策略。

We can build an ATP strategy that does that automatically for investors.

这真的很重要，因为税收亏损收割是在投资组合中获取超额收益并跑赢市场的一种方式，但传统投资者通常不会利用这一点。

And that's really important because tax loss harvesting is one way to gain alpha in your portfolio and beat the market, but traditional investors don't typically take advantage of that.

现在我们可以设计一个策略，让他们具备这种能力。

Now we can design a strategy that gives them that kind of, ability.

你还能用这个做哪些其他事情？

What are some of the other things you're able to do with this?

因为长期以来，我们一直听说代币化的好处，以及它如何让投资者能够以不同方式使用资产，比如在DeFi等领域。

Because, for a long time, we've heard about the benefits of tokenization and how it unlocks the ability for investors to use assets in different ways and in DeFi and so forth like that.

有没有什么功能是通过这个解锁的，让投资者在ATP中能够用他们的股票做一些事情，而这些事情是通过其他方式获得市场敞口时做不到的？

Are there things that are unlocked with this that allow investors in ATPs to do things with their equities that they couldn't do with other ways of getting exposure to those markets?

对。

Yeah.

我很喜欢这个问题，我觉得这正是ATP和代币化资产成为金融未来的原因。

I love that question, and I think that's exactly why ATPs and tokenized assets are the future of finance.

所以，对于放在券商账户里的ETF，如果你的净资产够高，或者使用的平台支持，你也许可以拿它们来借款。

So with ETFs that sit in your brokerage account, maybe you can borrow against them if you have high enough net worth or if you use a platform that allows you to do that.

也许你可以加杠杆之类的，但你没法全天候、全年无休地使用它们。

Maybe you can take margin, etcetera, but you can't access them 20 fourseven, three six five, things like that.

对吧？

Right?

有了ATP，你就能在DeFi中实现可组合性。

With ATPs, you're gonna have composability across DeFi.

这意味着你可以把ATP仓位放在一个由传统股票组成的篮子模型投资组合里。

That means that you can take an ATP position in a a basket model portfolio of traditional equities.

你可以存入这些股票，因为资产就在你的钱包里。

You can deposit those equities because you own the assets in your wallet.

你可以把策略中的某一个或全部资产存入像Aave这样的DeFi借贷平台。

You can deposit one or every asset in the strategy into a DeFi lending platform like Aave.

然后你就可以按照市场利率赚取收益，这个利率是那些借这些股票的人愿意支付的。

You can start earning yield at the market rate for which borrowers of that equity are willing to pay.

如果你需要现金或者想加杠杆，你也可以自己抵押这些资产来借款。

You can borrow against it yourself if you need cash or you want to take on margin.

这给你带来的可组合性，在今天的传统金融体系里根本不存在，而且对于世界上很大一部分人来说，他们连我们美国这边能用的券商账户和金融应用都没有，更不用说这种可组合性了。

It just gives you the composability that simply does not exist today on traditional finance rails and certainly doesn't exist for a large segment of the world that doesn't have access to the brokerage accounts and to the financial applications that we have here in The US.

我觉得这个故事的另一大重点，就是让美国以外的投资者也能投资美国公司，以及机器人、AI这些领域的领头羊。

I think that's another big part of this story is allowing investors outside The US to access US based companies and the leaders across things like robotics and AI.

我为美国以外的投资者感到非常高兴。

I'm very happy for investors outside of The US.

不过，作为在美国国内的人，我很好奇——虽然这可能只是猜测，或者现在说还为时过早——但《清晰法案》还在国会审议中。

However, as someone who is inside of The US, I'm really curious if, I mean, this may be speculation or or too soon to tell at this point point, but the Clarity Act is still in congress.

SEC和CFTC的监管机构一直在推动在美国解锁代币化。

There's been a lot of push by regulators at the SEC and CFTC to sort of unlock tokenization in The United States.

跟我说说，你们预计什么时候能向美国投资者提供这样的产品？

Talk to me about the the time horizon or what you're expecting in terms of the ability to offer a product like this to US investors as well.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，金融市场向链上转移才刚刚开始。

Well, the move of financial markets onchain is just getting started.

目前链上的资产规模，跟全球股票市场和全球资产市场相比，只是很小很小的一部分。

It's like a fraction of a fraction today onchain of what the actual global equities market and and global asset market is.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们认为这是一个大趋势，现在才刚刚起步，而且不只是我们这么看。

So we're very, very early in what we believe is a megatrend, and it's not just us by the way.

全球最大的监管机构、最大的金融机构也都认为，资产上链这个大趋势是金融的下一次演变。

The the largest regulators in the world, the largest financial institutions in the world also believe that this megatrend of assets moving on chain is kind of the next evolution of finance.

所以目前，Bitwise的ATP产品还没有对美国投资者开放。

So today, the Bitwise ATPs are not available to US investors.

我们预计监管环境会随着时间继续变化，希望有一天这些产品也能面向美国投资者开放。

We expect the regulatory environment will continue to change over time and hope that these will someday be available to US investors.

但你看，SEC主席保罗·阿特金斯、CFTC的表态，甚至上周唐纳德·特朗普提到的以合规方式将Hyperliquid引入美国本土，这些都说明了趋势。

But if you look at what Paul Atkins, the SEC chair or what the CFTC is saying or even what was, you know, said by Donald Trump last week about bringing hyperliquid onshore in a regulatory compliant way.

想想这些，再看看市场走向，很容易想象一个场景：投资者在链上加密钱包里直接购买股票篮子、模型投资组合，而像E*Trade或其他我们平时用来买卖股票的传统券商，也会与区块链整合，能够提供ATP或代币化股票等产品。

If you think about those things and where markets are headed, I think it's easy to see a world or paint a picture where investors are accessing baskets of equities, model portfolios in their crypto wallets onchain where traditional brokerages like E Trade or others that you and I might use for accessing stocks traditionally, where they're integrating with blockchains and have the ability to access things like ATPs or tokenized stocks.

而且我认为ATP的领域会从股票扩展到其他资产。

And then I see the ATP world expanding to other assets beyond equities.

比如黄金、房地产或其他大宗商品，可以打包成主题型ATP，或者围绕货币贬值设计特定策略。

You can think of things like gold or real estate or other commodities that you could package together in ATPs in a thematic way or in a, you know, specific strategy around debasement.

现在，你可以通过Bitwise设计的策略和ATP，在钱包里持有比特币、黄金和其他贵金属，这些都是代币化的股票和商品。

Now you can own Bitcoin and gold, other precious metals in your wallet through tokenized, equities and commodities via strategies designed by Bitwise and ATPs.

这种可组合性和可能性真的非常令人兴奋，我很高兴Bitwise能与合作伙伴一起率先将这些产品推向市场。

Like, the composability and what's possible here is really, really fascinating, and I'm really excited that Bitwise was able to to pioneer, bringing these to market alongside our partners.

你知道，我们在节目里经常讨论的一个话题是，加密货币正迅速成为全球支付基础设施的重要组成部分，而这一点在亚洲表现得最为明显。

You know, one thing we've talked about a lot on this show is that crypto is quickly becoming a huge part of the global payments infrastructure, and nowhere is that more obvious than in Asia.

但如果你真的在运营一家公司或支付业务，你就会知道，难点不在于转移稳定币。

But if you're actually running company or a payment business, you know that the hard part isn't moving the stablecoins.

难点在于处理本地银行合作伙伴、合规、流动性，以及向印度和东南亚等地区汇款时遇到的各种运营麻烦。

It's dealing with local banking partners, compliance, liquidity, and all of the operational headaches that come with sending money into places like India and Southeast Asia.

这就是为什么今天的合作伙伴是Saber。

That's why today's partner is Saber.

他们为支付公司提供基于稳定币的基础设施，用于在亚洲收款和付款，而无需自己构建所有这些复杂的系统。

They give payment companies stable coin powered infrastructure to collect and make payouts across Asia without having to build all of that complexity themselves.

他们已经在40多个国家处理了超过30亿美元的交易，所以这不仅仅是一个概念。

They've already processed more than $3,000,000,000 in transactions across 40 different countries, so this isn't just a concept.

这些人确实在实实在在地做这件事。

These guys are actually doing this for real.

如果你正在构建支付基础设施或扩展到亚洲，一定要去看看saber.money。

If you're building payment infrastructure or expanding into Asia, make sure you check out saber.money.

我真的很享受这次对话。

I'm really enjoying this conversation.

看得出来你现在又紧张又兴奋。

It's so obvious how stressed out and excited you are.

现在事情太多了。

There's so much going on right now.

Ryan，我想再多聊聊你刚才说的，就是代币化资产在这些不同的市场里只占很小很小的一部分，但它们的上涨空间却很大。

Ryan, I wanna talk a little bit more about what you said, which is that tokenized assets is a fraction of a fraction of all of these different markets, yet the upside in all of them.

对吧？

Right?

不只是股票，还有房地产、贵金属，还有很多其他的东西。

Like, not just in equities, but in real estate and and precious metals, many other things.

那里的市场潜力巨大。

There's a huge addressable market there.

Bitwise推出的这个产品，是和Coinbase在Base应用上合作的。

This product, Bitwise, it has launched is with Coinbase on the base app.

Robinhood也在积极推动，你知道的，他们也推出了很多代币化股票产品。

Robinhood has also been pushing, you know, launching a lot of tokenized equities products as well.

他们算是这些市场里最早吃螃蟹的那批人。

They're kind of like the the the first movers in in major ways in sort of these markets here.

跟我说说，你觉得接下来会发生什么？

Talk to me about what you think happens next.

我们会不会看到第二波、第三波的影响，让这种代币化加速得更快？

Do we see the second and third order effects of this be that all this tokenization accelerates even faster?

你觉得代币化资产交易在所有市场里会怎么发展？

And just what do you see in terms of the development of tokenized asset trading in in all markets here?

你看啊。

Look.

代币化和基于区块链的基础设施，可能性几乎是无限的。

The possibilities with tokenization and blockchain based rails are essentially infinite.

这就是为什么我们觉得这是大势所趋，过去五到十年用过加密轨道和DeFi的很多人都觉得，传统市场搬到链上是迟早的事。

That's why it feels inevitable to us and many of of us who have used crypto rails and DeFi over the past five, ten years, why it feels inevitable to us that traditional markets are moving on chain.

就像我们之前聊过的，传统金融的包装形式往往会被自己颠覆，因为它们更快、更高效、流动性更强，也更普及。

There's this history, as we kind of talked about before, of traditional wrappers being disrupted by themselves because they're faster, more efficient, more liquid, more accessible.

代币化和基于加密的轨道在金融市场上带来的创新，是我们以前从未见过的。

Tokenization and crypto based rails just innovates on that to a level we've never seen before in financial markets.

所以我觉得，真正可能实现的，就是那些梦想家能想到的各种策略和产品，通过代币化来获取。

And so I think what's possible is really whatever dreamers can come up with in terms of the types of strategies, the types of products that that you can access through tokenization.

我认为这对底层基础设施来说是非常利好的，不管是Coinbase及其代币化股票平台，还是像以太坊、Solana、Hyperliquid这样的第一层区块链，当然，这些在过去几周表现都非常出色。

I think it's really bullish for the underlying infrastructure, whether that's Coinbase and their tokenized stock platform or it's the layer one blockchains like Ethereum, Solana, Hyperliquid, which, of course, have performed remarkably well over the past few weeks.

我觉得这些事情不是孤立的。

I don't think these things are unrelated.

有监管方面的顺风。

You have regulatory tailwinds.

有代币化的顺风，还有稳定币的顺风。

You have tokenization tailwinds, stablecoin tailwinds.

现在价格势头也对我们有利。

Now we have price momentum in our favor.

所有这些因素都指向一个由多个主题和催化剂引领的牛市，而不是像历史上那样，我们通常只有一个催化剂来推动进入牛市。

All of the those things point to a bull market led by several different themes and catalysts rather than historically, we've had, like, one catalyst to lead us into bull markets.

我觉得这是加密货币历史上第一次有多个不同的催化剂同时发力，推动市场上涨。

I think this is the first time in crypto's history we've had several different catalysts picking up steam at the same time, driving the market higher.

这对那些不仅为未来三个月，而是为未来三年布局的投资者来说，真的很令人兴奋。

And that's really exciting for investors who are positioning themselves not just for the next three months, but for the next three years.

好，我们也来聊聊这个，因为正如你所说，总统上周在麦克风前提到了Hyperliquid，然后永续合约市场就爆发了。

Well, let's talk about that too because as you said, the president stepped up to a microphone last week and said hyperliquid, and the the perps markets exploded.

如果CFTC真的实现了把Hyperliquid引入美国的目标，那会发生什么？

What happens if the the CFTC does achieve that objective of bringing hyperliquid into The United States?

我猜这也意味着对Lighter和其他永续合约来说是个利好。

I assume that also means, like, it's bullish for lighter and other perps contracts.

我们会不会看到永续合约领域为了争夺市场份额而展开一场激烈的混战？或者你预计一旦永续合约成为美国市场上的另一种选择，市场会发生怎样的变化？

Do we just see, like, a huge knife fight for market share in the perp space, or what do you anticipate happens in terms of changes to markets once perpetuals become another, you know, option on the markets in The United States?

对。

Yeah.

所以，如果区块链上的永续期货真的以更受监管的形式进入美国，我认为我们会看到代币化资产和永续合约的加速发展真正达到一个新的速度。

So if and and when perpetual futures on blockchains make their way into The US in a more regulated format, I think we're going to see the accelerization or the acceleration of tokenized assets and perps really hit hit a new speed.

对吧？

Right?

今年我们已经看到了这种情况，美伊冲突推动了Hyperliquid上石油永续合约活动的巨大增长，然后是标普500，再然后是SpaceX的上市前交易。

We've already seen it happen this year with The US Iran Conflict driving this huge growth in perps activity on hyperliquid around oil, then we had the S and P 500, then we had pre IPO of SpaceX.

现在黄金和Anthropic的上市前交易也还在继续。

We're seeing it still with gold and with pre IPO for Anthropic.

所有这些都在传统股票交易所开放之前，让传统资产在闭市时也能进行价格发现和交易。

Like, all of these things are enabling price discovery and access to traditional assets when markets are closed before they become public on traditional stock exchanges.

所以我看到的是，永续合约的规模将远超我们之前所见，而它本来就是加密货币市场多年来增长最快的领域之一。

And so what I see here is just this massive growth in perpetual futures beyond what we've already seen, which, by the way, has been, like, one of the fastest growing segments of the crypto market for years.

我确实认为，你会看到传统平台和加密平台之间展开一场大规模的永续合约竞赛。

I do think you see this massive, you know, perps race going on from traditional platforms and from crypto platforms.

当然，Robinhood、Hyperliquid和Coinbase在加密领域是先锋，但CME和其他平台也在积极进入永续合约市场，因为这本质上是一种加密原生的发明，是对传统期货的创新。

Of course, Robinhood and Hyperliquid and Coinbase are pioneering it from a kind of crypto side, but you're also seeing the CME and other platforms also pushing into perps because this is like a crypto native invention and innovation on traditional futures.

你可以看到交易量。

And you can see the volume.

你可以看到这些活动。

You can see the activity.

你可以看到价格发现。

You can see the price discovery.

这是因为这些产品真的非常棒，富有创新性，而且投资者有需求。

And that's because these are really, really great products that are innovative and investors have demand for.

只要有投资者需求和客户需求，你就可以相信传统金融机构会在那里满足他们的客户。

And whenever there's investor demand and there's client demand, you can believe that traditional financial institutions are going to be meeting their clients there.

美国证券交易委员会和商品期货交易委员会在特朗普总统参加的白宫会议后，宣布了加密货币的监管框架。

The SEC and the CFTC announced a regulatory framework for crypto after the the meeting at the White House with with president Trump.

这包括一些关于如何在美国进行首次代币发行和代币募资的规则，以及一项创新豁免。

This includes, some rules around how to do ICOs, fundraising for for tokens in The United States, as well as an innovation exemption.

你谈了很多关于代币化和永续合约进入美国所解锁的新创新。

You know, you've talked a lot about new innovations that are unlocked by tokenization, by perpetuals coming to The United States.

你预计风险投资和初创企业会重新点燃，开拓数字资产领域的新事物吗？

Do you anticipate there's gonna be a reignition of venture capital, of startups, pioneering things in digital assets?

因为很多人从SEC那里听到这些消息后，会觉得，这要是2018年就好了，但现在感觉已经不需要这些了。

Because a lot of people have heard this stuff from the SEC and been like, this would have been helpful in 2018, but now it's kind of like, we don't need this anymore.

你对这个怎么看？

What's your outlook on that?

你觉得

What do

接下来会发生什么？

you think happens here?

约翰，我对接下来要发生的事情感到非常兴奋。

John, I'm so excited for for what's gonna happen.

对吧？

Right?

正如你提到的，这对融资来说真的很重要。

This is really important for fundraising as you mentioned.

对吧？

Right?

我们已经看到了ICO的繁荣与萧条。

And we've seen the ICO boom and bust.

也许我们中的一些人已经把它从记忆中抹去了，因为那次萧条特别引人注目。

Maybe some of us have, like, blocked it out of our our memory because the bust was particularly remarkable.

但今天我们拥有的是一种方式，让创新者和企业家能够通过数字资产以合规的方式筹集资金。

But what we can have today is a way for innovators and entrepreneurs to raise capital via digital assets in a regulatory compliant way.

所以我认为这将导致大量资本涌入风险投资领域和加密货币的早期创业公司。

So I think that's going to lead to a big influx of capital into the venture space and into the early stage companies in crypto.

我认为这将允许更多的创新，并加速美国加密货币初创公司的产品开发和公司发展，这意义重大。

I think it's gonna allow for a lot more innovation and accelerate product development and company development in The US for crypto startups, which is which is massive.

对吧？

Right?

但放眼全局，这只是更广泛趋势的一部分，这个趋势实际上是在2024年底确立的，即美国监管机构、参议院和国会支持加密货币的立场。

But zooming out, this is just this broader trend, which really was established back at the end of twenty twenty four of pro crypto posture in The US by regulators, by the senate, by congress.

我们纠结于《清晰法案》，但我认为如果你能在脑海中暂时把它放在一边，你可以看看像《天才法案》这样的东西，那是去年以两党支持通过的关于支付稳定币的广泛立法，将于明年年初生效。

We get hung up on the Clarity Act, but I think if you can set that aside for a moment in your mind, you can look at things like the Genius Act, which is broad legislation for payment stablecoins that was passed last year with bipartisan support that goes into effect the beginning of next year.

你可以看到SEC和CFTC推出的所有这些不同的举措、规则和指导方针。

You can see all of these different initiatives and rules and guidance put out by the SEC and the CFTC.

现在你看到国会的人以及财政部长都在拥抱稳定币。

Now you see folks in congress and the the secretary of the treasury embracing stablecoins.

这就是过去突破性技术和行业所拥有的那种监管势头，无论是2000年代中期的金融科技，还是社交媒体，或是拼车服务。

This is the type of regulatory momentum that breakthrough technologies and industries have had in the past, whether it was fintech in the in the mid '2 thousands or social media or rideshare.

对吧？

Right?

你可以看到与过去突破性技术的相似之处，看看它们在监管明确之前和之后的表现。

You can see parallels to breakthrough technologies in the past and just look at what those have done kind of post regulatory clarity from pre regulatory clarity.

对吧？

Right?

那就是在增长、投资和创新方面的巨大繁荣。

It's this massive boom in growth, in investment, and in innovation.

所以我认为，尽管《清晰法案》被搁置，但看到这种监管进展继续推进，是非常重要的。

So I think it's very important that we're seeing this regulatory development continue to move forward despite the Clarity Act being hung up.

大概三周后我们就会知道《清晰法案》的结果了，我很期待看到这场戏怎么演，毕竟加密圈的戏码总是出人意料。

We'll find out what happens with the Clarity Act in about three weeks, which I'm excited to see that drama unfold as as crypto drama always does unfold in a miraculous way.

但不管怎样，监管方面的势头是一个重要的推动因素。

But but nonetheless, the regulatory momentum is a major catalyst.

这也是我们在Bitwise经常和投资者讨论的话题。

It's something we talk to investors about at Bitwise all the time.

他们也是经常问起这个。

It's something they ask about all the time.

这也是为什么全球最大的金融机构都在大力投资区块链技术，扩大产品线加入加密货币，以及全球最大的支付公司都在建设或收购稳定币基础设施，以跟上市场步伐的原因之一。

It's one of the reasons why the world's largest financial institutions are investing heavily in blockchain technology, are expanding their menu of products to include crypto, why the largest payment companies in the world are building out stablecoin infrastructure or buying stablecoin infrastructure to catch up to the market.

这些都是监管从反加密货币转向支持加密货币的迹象，对市场走向产生了巨大影响。

These are all signs that the regulatory transition from anti crypto to crypto supportive has had a massive impact on where the market's headed.

而且这种影响不是一年或一周的短期效应。

And that's not a one year or a one week impact.

这是持续数十年的影响，会推动加密领域的增长、资产价格和公司股价走高。

That's a multi decade impact that's gonna drive growth, asset prices, company prices higher in the crypto space.

听起来一切都在加速，用你的话说。

And it sounds like everything is accelerating to use your word.

Ryan，你现在是加密货币圈里最红的人，所以我得放你走，让你去上电视了。

Ryan, you are the most popular boy in crypto, so I'm gonna have to let you go get on television.

在你走之前，我得问你一个问题。

Before I let you go, gotta ask you one question.

我们刚刚见证了比特币历史上最大的一次空头挤压，短短几天内数字资产市场市值增加了5000亿美元。

We saw the biggest short squeeze in Bitcoin's history, a $500,000,000,000 of market cap added to the digital assets markets in a couple of days.

牛市是不是回来了？年底比特币会收在10万以上还是以下？

Is the bull run back, and do we finish the year above or below a 100 k for Bitcoin?

我喜欢这个问题。

I love it.

我喜欢这个问题，John，谢谢你今天邀请我。

I love it, John, and thanks for having me on today.

真的很感谢。

I really, appreciate it.

你看。

Look.

我觉得这轮牛市才刚刚开始。

I think that we're just getting started for this next bull market.

是的。

Yes.

这次空头挤压是一个巨大的催化剂。

The short was a massive accelerant or accelerizent.

也许我也会用这个词。

Maybe I'll coin that term as well.

对。

Uh-huh.

但我们也看到ETF资金大量涌入加密货币市场，不仅仅是比特币，还有以太坊、Hyperliquid和XRP。

But but we also saw ETF flows massively come into the crypto market, not just for Bitcoin, but for Ethereum, for Hyperliquid, for XRP.

对吧？

Right?

我们看到资金正在整个加密货币领域部署。

We're seeing capital deployed across the crypto stack.

加密货币股票今年表现不错，而且会继续表现良好。

Crypto equities have been performing well this year, continue to do well.

所以你看，我认为我们正处于一个多年的牛市之中。

So look, I think we're in a multiyear bull market.

我认为很多投资者因为一直遵循四年周期，预期加密货币今年会继续下跌而选择观望，这些投资者会重新回到市场。

I think many investors are sidelined because they've been playing the four year cycle and expected crypto to continue to bleed this year, those investors will come back into the market.

那些一直观望的传统投资者对未来的走势感到兴奋。

Traditional investors who have been sidelined are excited about where things are headed.

我们知道这一点，因为我们在Bitwise每天都和传统投资者交流。

We know this because we speak to traditional investors every single day at Bitwise.

我认为这些因素会在未来一两年、两三年推动市场走高。

I think those are the things that drive markets higher for the next one, two, three years.

那么，接下来我们会走向何方？

So where are we headed from here?

我确实认为，到年底时，比特币和许多其他加密资产的价格会比年初更高。

I do think we end the year higher from where we started for Bitcoin and many other crypto assets.

而且我觉得2027年也会是加密资产表现突出的一年。

And I think 2027 is also going to be a remarkable year where crypto outperforms.

Ryan Rasmussen，Bitwise的研究主管，感谢你来到Milk Road Show，给我们介绍了自动化代币组合，还有你今天分享的其他干货。

Ryan Rasmussen, head of research at Bitwise, thank you for coming on the Milk Road Show and telling us about Automated Token Portfolios and all the other alpha you shared with us today.

希望很快能再请你来，因为我们还有很多话题想聊。

I hope we can have you back again very soon because we need to catch up more.

我们好久没聊了。

It's been a while since I've talked

是啊。

to you.

对。

Yes.

谢谢你，John。

Thank you, John.

感谢你今天邀请我来。

Appreciate you having me on here today.

期待下次再和你见面，再次感谢。

Can't wait to be with you next time, and and thank you.

感谢大家今天的参与。

Thank you all for joining us.

希望你们今天都有所收获。

I hope you all learned something today.

那么下次见，就像我常说的，保持安全，保持学习，保持乐观。

So until next time, as I always say, stay safe, stay educated, stay bullish.

希望下次能有更多时间和Ryan交流，但他今天很忙，所以我就先让他走了。

Hopefully, time we have more time with Ryan, but he's very popular today, so I'm gonna let him go.

我们下期Milk Road Show再见。

But we'll see you all on the next episode of the Milk Road Show.

感谢大家的到来。

Thanks for being here, everyone.

再见。

Bye.

感谢收听Milk Road。

Thanks for listening to Milk Road.

如果你喜欢这期节目，记得点赞和订阅。

If you enjoyed the show, make sure you like and subscribe.

如果你在市场中很难找到赢家，这正是Milk Road Pro的用武之地。

And if you're struggling to find winners in the market, that's exactly what Milk Road Pro is built for.

我们的分析师很早就发现了一些大赢家，Pro让你看到他们接下来买什么、每一笔交易以及每个持仓背后的研究。

Our analysts have called some of the biggest winners early, and Pro lets you see what they're buying next, every trade they make, and the research behind every position.

点击下方链接，查看Milk Road Pro。

Check out Milk Road Pro at the link below.

你在Milk Road上听到的所有内容仅供参考。

Everything you hear on Milk Road is for informational purposes only.

这些是我们的个人观点，不是财务建议，我们可能持有我们提到的某些投资。

These are our personal opinions, not financial advice, and we may own some of the investments we talk about.

一定要自己做研究，做出适合自己的决定。

Always do your own research and make the decisions that are right for you.

下次见。

See you next time.