Bitwise x Base：加密货币可能比任何人预期的更快实现2000倍增长

这不是像ETF或基金那样的集合投资工具。

This isn't a pooled vehicle like an ETF or a fund.

他们直接持有这些单独的资产。

They own those individual assets.

他们可以在DeFi生态系统中使用这些资产。

They can use those assets in the DeFi ecosystem.

这更加直接。

It's much more direct.

从产品开发的角度来看，这更有趣，因为速度非常快。

From a product development perspective, it's much more interesting because it's very fast.

它非常灵活，非常易于调整，因为它只是一个设计好的模型，人们可以根据自己的意愿在自己的钱包和投资组合中复制。

It is very flexible, it is very movable, because it is just a designed model that people can replicate in their portfolios, in their own wallets at their discretion.

我们可以很快推出新的ATP，适应不断变化的市场条件。

We can launch new ATPs very quickly, We can adapt to changing market conditions.

从这个角度来看，它非常有趣，而且非常轻量，这对创新来说是很棒的。

And from that perspective, it's very it's very interesting and very lightweight, which is nice from a innovation perspective.

我总喜欢这么想，当你掌握一项新技术时，你能用它做什么，既能像过去一样，又能在某些方面做得更好。

I always like to think about, you know, when you get a new technology, what can you do with it that is similar to what we've had in the past, but better in certain ways.

这有点像ETF在做的事情。

This is similar somewhat to what ETFs are doing.

确实有很多主题ETF，但它的优势在于更快、成本更低、效率更高，而且最终客户可以直接托管。

There's certainly a lot of thematic ETFs, but it's better in that it's faster, it's lower cost, it's more efficient, it allows for direct custody by the end customer.

它不是受监管的基金，没有同样的保护，但它有很多让人感兴趣的好处。

It's not a regulated fund, it doesn't have the same protections, but it has a lot of benefits that are interesting to people.

好。

K.

所以有很多新好处，也有很多创新机会。

So lots of new benefits, lots of opportunity for innovation.

AGM，我想问你一个问题。

AGM, I wanna ask you about this.

当这个推出时，你说现在阿根廷的出租车司机也能获得和专业财富经理一样的投资组合配置。

When this launched, you said that now a taxi driver in Argentina can get the same portfolio exposures as a professional wealth manager.

我很好奇，你觉得这些产品的主要用户是谁？那些已经推出的产品，都是什么样的人在接触和使用？

And I'm really curious who you're seeing as the adopters of some of these products and and customers who are, you know, engaging with these products that have been launched.

是阿根廷的出租车司机吗？

Is it taxi drivers in Argentina?

还是专业的财富管理经理？

Is it professional wealth managers?

还是两者都有？

Is it some of both?

你观察到的情况是怎样的？

What are you seeing?

这挺有意思的。

It's interesting.

其实挺搞笑的，这件事后来变成了一个梗，因为最初的故事是，我其实……

I mean, it's funny that's become a meme because the the original story was I actually...

我当时在布宜诺斯艾利斯的 DevCon 大会上，我的出租车司机居然持有加密货币。

I was in DevCon in Buenos Aires, and my taxi driver actually held crypto.

我问他拿这些加密货币做什么，他说基本上没做什么，因为他没法投资任何东西。

And I asked him what he did with it, and he said kind of nothing because he couldn't invest in anything.

所以这个梗就是这么来的。

So that's where the meme came from.

所以确实有那种典型的阿根廷出租车司机。

So there there was there was in fact the archetypal Argentinian taxi driver.

我不知道他现在投资了什么。

I don't know what he's invested in these days.

说实话，现在还为时过早。

I mean, to be honest, it's early days.

我们甚至还没推出大部分产品。

Like, we don't even have most of the names out there.

所以我们刚开始，你知道，从科技七巨头开始，因为显然它们最有……

So we just started, you know, with the mag seven because obviously it has the most...

就像马特说的，那显然是你起步的地方。

Like Matt said, that's, you know, that's obviously where you start.

有个很奇怪的现象，就是链上交易的那些名字，不一定就是作为公司最有趣的那些。

It's a weird curiosity that the names that get traded onchain are not necessarily the names that are most interesting as a company.

比如，我们在零售领域看到的一个情况是，那些被交易的股票名字……

So, like, one thing we've seen inside retail, the sort of names that get traded...

我们还有一个链下股票产品，往往也挺有意思的。

We also have, an offchain equities product, tend to be interesting.

你知道，就像GameStop那个现象。

You know, it's like the GameStop phenomenon.

GameStop到底是什么鬼？

Like, what the hell is GameStop?

你上次看到GameStop是什么时候？可它居然变成了……

Like, when's last time you even saw GameStop, and yet it became...

它就像，把整个华尔街都迷住了，连续几周都这样？

It, like, possessed the entire Wall Street world for, like, weeks on end?

这有点像类似的现象，不一定是最市值的那些名字，但恰恰是这些最吸引链上的关注，而我们还没到那一步呢。

It's kind of the similar phenomenon where it's not necessarily the most high market cap name, but those are the ones that are gonna draw the most onchain attention, and we haven't even gotten there yet.

所以，回答你的问题，有点绕。

So sort of long winded way of answering your question.

我觉得我们也不完全清楚他们会交易什么。

I I don't think we know exactly what they're gonna trade.

我觉得他们不会只是买点SPY ETF然后就完事了。

I don't think it's gonna be obviously the case that they're just gonna, you know, buy SPY ETFs and go away.

我觉得链上世界会更有意思一些。

I think knowing the onchain world is gonna be a little bit more interesting.

比如说，ATP。

I mean, ATPs.

像那些现在还不存在的新颖交易策略，再说一遍……

Like, novel trading strategies that don't exist now that, again...

这些在链下世界确实有，比如对冲基金，但在这里，我们让任何人都能在链上接触到它们。

I mean, those exist as hedge funds in the off chain world, but here we're bringing them into the onchain world accessible to anybody.

所以我觉得这两者的碰撞会非常有趣。

So I think the collision of that is gonna be really interesting.

而且，再说一次，现在真的还为时过早。

And, again, it's just it's just too early days.

就像，他们只是……

Like, they're they're just...

甚至不说Base、Robinhood这些，我们拥有它们的时间还不够长，根本还没搞清楚到底谁会真正交易这些东西。

Even going beyond Base, Robinhood, whatever, we just haven't had them long enough to even understand who's gonna really trade these things.

看到那些玩meme币的人拿到代币化资产会搞出什么名堂，总是让人很兴奋。

It's always exciting to see what happens when the meme coin trenchers get ahold of tokenized assets.

所以我们就等着看Base上会怎么发展吧。

So we'll see what it plays out there on base.

Matt，我想问你一个问题。

Matt, I wanna ask you about this.

这个问题我问过Ryan，也问过Bitwise的其他一些人。

This is something I've asked Ryan about and some other people from Bitwise.

但是随着SEC开始为这类事情敞开大门，ATP有可能成为你可以在美国境内推出的产品，你觉得这对你的ETF业务会有什么影响？

But as the SEC starts to open the doors for things like this and ATPs become a product that you could potentially bring onshore into The US, how do you see this relative to your ETF business?

这会不会……

Does this...

你知道，它是不是一个竞争产品？

You know, is it a competing product?

还是一个补充产品？

Is it a supplementary product?

它们之间会不会有冲突？

Do they conflict with each other?

那你怎么看待Bitwise在市场上推出的这些不同产品之间的关系？

And and just how do you think about that in terms of different products that Bitwise is bringing to market here?

当然。

Sure.

我的意思是，我本身是做ETF出身的。

I mean, I come from an ETF background.

我以前经营过一家叫etf.com的公司。

I used to run a company called etf.com.

你可以把ETF看作是对共同基金行业的巨大颠覆。

You can think of ETFs as as hugely disruptive to the mutual fund industry.

并不是说共同基金行业消失了。

It's not that the mutual fund industry went away.

它依然存在。

It still exists.

事实上，直到大约一年前，它的资产规模还超过ETF行业，尽管已经很久没人买共同基金了。

In fact, until about a year ago, it had more assets than the ETF industry, even though no one's bought a mutual fund in a long time.

我看代币化世界的时候，也有类似的感觉。

I think a little bit like that when I look at the tokenized world.

你看，我们很喜欢ETF。

Look, we love ETFs.

ETF在未来三十年里都会存在。

ETFs are gonna be here for the next thirty years.

它们效率极高。

They're extraordinarily efficient.

把资金集中在一起确实能带来一些效率上的好处。

There's some efficiencies that come from pooling capital together.

这是一个非常出色的工具。

It's a beautiful vehicle.

但还有其他一些工具被忽视了。

But there are these other vehicles that are captured.

新用户、年轻用户、不同的人群、全球用户，他们会随着时间不断壮大。

New users, younger users, different demographic, global users, and they're gonna scale over time.

Bitwise 想做的就是拥有核心的专业能力，也就是对加密货币市场和传统市场的深刻理解，我们可以把这些结合起来，创造出有趣的项目，这些项目可以通过 ETF 或 ATP 来体现。

What Bitwise tries to do is to have a core level of expertise, which is a deep understanding of the crypto markets and the traditional markets that we can smash together into interesting projects that could be expressed through an ETF or an ATP.

我觉得它们是并存的，对吧。

I think of them as existing side by side, right.

我们还做金库、SMA 以及对冲基金类的策略。

We also do vaults, and we do SMAs, and we do hedge fund like strategies.

不同的人有不同的工具选择。

You have different wrappers for different people.

这只是一个独特的包装，我们可以为特定的受众提供特别的服务。

This is just a unique wrapper that we can do unique things for a unique audience.

我确实认为……

I do think there...

这个领域会变得非常重要。

This space will be very significant.

否则，我们也不会进入这个领域。

Otherwise, we wouldn't have moved into it.

但你知道，我觉得它是ETF的补充。

But, you know, I I think of it as complementary to the ETF.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

所以它们可以共同发展。

So they can grow together.

我想聊聊增长这个话题，因为AGM，你是Base的增长负责人，而现在加密货币领域增长势头很猛。

I I wanna talk about growth, because, AGM, you are head of growth at Base, and growth is something that's happening a lot in crypto right now.

跟我说说，从产品采用和Base整体发展的角度来看，接下来有什么增长策略？

Tell me a little bit about what the strategy is to grow from here in terms of adoption of these products and of Base in general.

你知道，你过去有很成功的经历。

You know, you have a a very successful history.

你之前在Facebook参与过广告机器的增长。

You were involved in Facebook's ad machine growth over there.

有没有什么经验教训，你正在用来推动Base的增长？你现在的整体策略是什么样的？

Any lessons learned that you're applying to grow Base, and just what's that overall strategy look like for you right now?

天哪。

Oh god.

Facebook完全是另一个世界。

Facebook was such a different world.

我是说，那……

I mean, it's...

加密世界和普通世界正好相反。

Crypto is the reverse of the regular world.

我以前……

I was...

我常开玩笑说，Facebook 的广告库存和用户多到不知道怎么处理，而加密世界正好相反。

Used to joke that, like, Facebook had more ad inventory, more users than it knew what to deal with while crypto was in the reverse situation.

不过话说回来，从另一个角度看，平均每个加密用户的价值比 Facebook 用户高，原因有很多。

That said, on the flip side, the average crypto user is worth more than the average Facebook users for a bunch of reasons.

但，是的。

But, yeah.

那我们在增长方面做了什么呢？

So what are we doing on growth?

就像我说的，你知道，我们是从……

Like I said, you know, we came...

Spindle 是从整个广告行业出来的。

Spindle came out of the whole ads world.

所以，我们其实还在Coinbase Wallet和其他一些地方投放广告。

So, like, we still run ads actually inside, like, Coinbase Wallet and a few other places.

但现在我们真正在做的事情，还是看看用户从哪里来。

But, like, what we're really doing now, again, is just, like, seeing where do users come from?

他们要去哪里？

Where are they going?

我们有这些漂亮的流程图，可能应该发博客文章，它们清楚地展示了资金从哪里流入代币化股票、流动性洞察和借贷池，最后又流向哪里。

Like, we have these beautiful flowcharts that we should probably have blog posts about that literally show, like, where is money coming into, like, tokenized stocks or, like, liquidity insights and lending pool, and then where does it eventually go?

所以，我们就是确保……

And so just under...

确保这些是真正留存的TVL。

Making sure that it's, like, real retained TVL.

这些是真正在交易的真实用户。

Like, these are real users who are actually trading.

加密货币里很多东西都是被刷出来的。

A lot of things get farmed on crypto.

然后还有针对性的激励措施。

And then having targeted incentives.

所以我们实际上有一个通过股票交易返现的奖励系统。

So we actually have, a cashback reward system for trading equities through.

我可以一口气说出合作名单，但我一时记不住我们即将合作的10到15个伙伴的名字。

I would rattle off the list of names, and I I I don't know them offhand of, the 10 or 15 partners that we're launching with.

然后我们可能也会在零售端做同样的事情，等Coinbase零售应用上线后。

And then we probably run the same thing with with retail, the the Coinbase retail app once it launches.

所以我们在做一些类似……

So running things that are like...

我的意思是，这和其他经纪商的做法很像，比如，嘿，你转100美元到账户并开始交易，然后持有30天，就给你10美元之类的。

I mean, it's, you know, it's very similar to what other brokers like, hey, You know, here's $10 to, like, transfer a $100 to your account and start trading and then holding on to it for thirty days or whatever.

我们可能会为大户举办交易风格竞赛，看谁交易量最大，这是非常典型的加密货币增长策略。

We're probably gonna have trading style competitions for, the big whales to see who, like, trades the most in size, very typical sort of crypto tactic, to drive growth.

我觉得我们其实要好得多。

I I think we're we're actually a lot better.

这个方案更容易扩展一些。

It's a little bit more scalable.

关键是要确保有足够的流动性，比如AMM流动性。

It's just making sure there's things like like AMM liquidity.

也就是说，这些股票确实有流动性，人们真的能交易，而且交易成本比传统金融世界要低。

Like, there's actually liquidity in these names such that people can actually trade them, and it actually costs them less to trade than they would in in the TradFi world.

所以得确保这些是合理的。

So making sure that that makes sense.

或者说到借贷市场，市场总是要保持平衡的。

Or when it comes to, like, lend borrow, markets are always in balance.

有时候借的人比贷的人多，或者反过来。

There's people trying to lend more than there are people to borrow or vice versa.

所以你得不断调整一方的收益率，让这个飞轮转起来。

So you've always gotta juice the yield on one side or the other to kind of get that flywheel going and get that spin going.

就是类似这样的一些事情。

So, like, things like that.

我们有很多需要衡量的地方，才能搞清楚该在哪里注入一点流动性奖励，让市场真正解决冷启动的问题，尤其是像那种从零开始的市场。

We have, like, a lot of measurement to set up to figure out, like, where do we need to inject a little bit of liquidity reward and actually get the markets to sort of solve the cold start problem we get going, particularly a market like that that's literally starting from zero.

有机增长真的很惊人。

Like, the organic growth has been amazing.

再说一次，一天一亿美元，比我们预期的一个月还要多。

Again, $100,000,000 in a day is is more than we thought you'd get a month into it.

但话说回来，Aave上的借贷池还远远没到这个规模。

But still, right, like, the the the borrow pool on Aave nowhere near that yet.

那我们是不是得在那里注入流动性，让借贷运转起来，让这些轮子转起来？

So do we need to inject liquidity there to get that Lend borrow going and get those wheels going?

我觉得答案很可能是肯定的。

I mean, the answer is probably yes.

所以，类似这样的问题就是我们一直在考虑的。

So, like, things like that are what we think about.

好的。

Okay.

所以，激励措施的目标就是让一切运转起来。

So target of incentives to to get things running.

你最关注的指标是什么？

What is the metric that you're most focused on?

是用户数吗？

Is it users?

是建立在Base上的应用吗？

Is it applications built on base?

是交易量吗？

Is it volume?

还是所有这些方面……

Is all these things...

你是怎么衡量这里的成功和增长的？

Like, how do you think about measuring the success and the growth here?

这取决于现在是谁在Slack上问我进展如何、数字是多少，不管是Jesse还是其他人。

Depends who's now giving me on Slack asking me a question where we are, what number, whether it's Jesse or somebody else.

我通常，嗯，高层指标就是那些显而易见的。

I usually, mean, the high level metrics are the obvious ones.

我的意思是，从核心层面来看，这条链靠排序收入赚钱。

I mean, at a core level, the chain makes money off sequence revenue.

所以gas费不是核心的东西。

So gas fees aren't a core thing.

但那是非常短期的看法。

But that's a very that's a very short term sort of way to look at it.

显然，我的意思是，DEX交易量是其中之一。

Obviously, I I mean, DEX volume is is one of it.

与其他链相比，DEX市场份额其实是一个重要指标。

DEX market share compared to other other chains is actually a big one.

借贷和融资在Base上非常成功。

Lend borrow and financing is super successful on base.

比如，我们一直看到Base上借贷余额在增长，不仅仅是代币化股票、CBBC、CBEETH等不同资产。

Like, we've just been seeing balances for lend borrow just go up on base for for different assets, not just tokenized equities, CBBC, CBEETH, etcetera.

所以就是了解我们锁定了多少资金，其中有多少能留住。

So just understanding how much we have locked up, how much of that retains.

所以我们再次发放奖励。

So once again, we do a reward.

它是留下来了，还是说只是流动资本，比如？

Does it stick around, or is it Slidey Capital, for example?

所以像这些指标，总支付量。

So, like, metrics like those, total payment volume.

在Base上，有数十亿甚至更多的USDC一直在支付。

There's, like, billions and billions and billions of dollars of of USCC on base that gets paid all the time.

所以那……

So that...

那是我们看的另一个指标。

That's another metric that we look at.

所以基本上就是你在Dune仪表板上能看到的高层数据。

So sort of the the basic high level stuff you'd find in in a Doon dashboard.

但具体到增长方面，比如留存率、用户从哪里来、他们能留多久？

But specifically when it comes to growth, things like retention, where are they coming from, how long do they stick around?

这就是我们会问的问题。

Like, that's the sort of thing that we ask.

你知道吗，加密货币有个奇怪的地方，就是你在里面待得越久，账户好像就越多。

You know, one of the weird things about crypto is that the longer you're in it, the more accounts you seem to end up with.

你在一个地方买，在另一个地方交易，又在别的地方赚收益。

You buy in one place, trade somewhere else, earn yield somewhere else.

如果你真的需要资金，最后可能不得不卖掉一些你本来想留着的东西。

And if you actually need capital, you end up having to sell something that you probably wanted to keep.

这就是为什么我们Milk Road要和Nexo合作。

That's why we at Milk Road are partnering with Nexo.

他们能把所有东西都放在一个账户里。

These guys keep the whole thing under one account.

你可以买卖加密货币，在你已有的资产上赚利息，甚至不用卖掉它们就能借到钱。

You can buy, trade crypto, earn interest on what you already hold, and even borrow against your capital without having to sell it.

所有功能集中在一个地方，一个账户，全在Nexo上。

All in one spot, all in one account, all on Nexo.

所以如果你需要流动性，但又不想放弃你的仓位，或者你已经持有加密货币，想让它发挥更大作用，我觉得Nexo值得你花时间了解一下。

So if you need liquidity, but you don't wanna give up your position or you're already holding crypto and you wanna be able to do more with it, I think Nexo is worth your time.

我们很喜欢和他们合作。

We love working with them.

我想你也会喜欢的。

I think you will too.

告诉他们，是Milk Road推荐你来的。

Tell them Milk Road sent you.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

所以，发展任何生态系统的关键之一，就是上面有人们真正想用的东西。

So one of the key things for growing any ecosystem is things being built on it that people really want to use.

Matt，我很好奇你们为什么选择Base来推出这些自动代币组合产品。

Matt, I'm curious your perspective on why you guys chose Base for ATPs for these automated token portfolio products.

这个决策过程是怎样的？在推出这个产品之前，你们都有哪些讨论？

What was that decision making process like, and and what were those conversations like leading up to launching this product?

我觉得，这个嘛……

I mean, that's...

其实挺简单的。

It's pretty easy.

Coinbase是一个非常出色的合作伙伴。

Coinbase is an exceptional partner.

Bitwise和Coinbase合作，我想已经有八年了吧，在各种方面。

Bitwise has been partnered with Coinbase, I think, for eight years now in some...

反正就是一直有合作。

One way or another.

所以我们和这家公司关系非常深。

So we're we're deep friends, with the company.

我们了解并喜欢实际代币化股票的表现，正如AGM所说，这些代币化股票拥有完整的权利和责任。

We knew and liked how the actual tokenized stocks were functioning in terms of, what AGM said, being actually the tokenized stocks with full rights and responsibilities.

而且我们相信他们在流动性方面会做得很好，事实上他们也确实做到了。

And we felt confident they would do a good job on liquidity, which in fact they have.

所以就是高度的信任。

So just a high degree of trust.

当你推出一个新产品进入市场时，你真的希望第一次就能做对，并且希望有高度的信任和品质，而我们对Base感到放心。

When you come out with a new product into a market, you really wanna get it right on the first instance, and you want there to be a high level of trust and quality, and and we felt comfortable doing that with Base.

所以这在我看来，是Bitwise和Coinbase故事中很棒的一部分。

So it's it's a it's a great part of a continuing Bitwise Coinbase story is how I view it.

好的。

Okay.

延续总是好事。

Continuation is always a good thing.

AGM，我想问你一个关于你在Twitter上发帖的问题，是关于谁会在自动化或代理交易经济中获胜。

AGM, I wanted to ask you a question about something that I saw you posted on Twitter, which was about who wins the automated or the agentic trading economy.

你在推特上写了一篇关于这个的文章，我还没来得及看。

And you wrote an an essay about this on Twitter, and I didn't get a chance to read it.

但我想问问你，因为我觉得这和整个加密货币的增长非常相关。

But I I wanted to ask you about it because I thought it was, like, really relevant to, like, just the growth of crypto overall.

所以，你能给我一些高层次的看法吗？以及这对Coinbase和Base的增长战略有什么影响？

And so, you know, just give me some high level thoughts on this and and how that figures into the growth strategy at Coinbase and for Base.

天哪。

Oh god.

我发在推特上的东西居然要被拿来问责。

Being held accountable for what I post on Twitter.

这是我噩梦之一，我三个月前发了点东西。

This is, one of my nightmares that I post something three months ago.

我觉得这个好像有点火了。

I think I think this one went kinda viral.

像Stripe和Tempo的人都在回复它。

People from, like, Stripe and Tempo are replying to it.

对，这个智能体支付的东西挺酷的。

Yeah, so this this agentic payment thing is kinda cool.

我觉得大家应该都明白。

So I think everyone probably understands it.

就是那种，我的智能体出去花钱。

This business like, oh, my agent goes out into the world and spends money.

举个例子，另一家在Base上建设的公司Cloudflare，它托管了大约25%的互联网，会推出一个功能：如果AI智能体来抓取你的数据，没问题，但得付你一点微小的费用。

To cite example, another company building on Base Cloudflare, which hosts, like, 25% of the Internet, will have a feature where if, like, an AI agent comes and scrapes your data, that's fine, but they pay you some microcent amount.

所以有个叫x four zero two的东西，这是一个HTTP代码，基本上就是说，嘿，机器人。

And so there's this thing called x four zero two, which is an HTTP code, which basically says, hey, bot.

你得付我十分之一美分，比如，才能获取这些信息。

Like, you gotta pay me a a tenth of a penny, say, for this information.

我的意思是，发布者可以自己设定这个价格。

I mean, the the the publisher can set what that is.

所以与其订阅100个服务，你只需要按需获取你需要的信息。

And so rather than having, a 100 subscriptions, you just go and, like, incrementally get whatever information you need.

你知道吗，你为那次查询付了5美分，就像你为前沿模型付了那么多token一样，然后生活继续，世界的信息对你敞开。

You know, you paid 5¢ for that query in the same way that you paid that many tokens to the frontier model, and, like, life goes on and the world information is open to you.

这就是代理支付的一个例子。

So that's kind of the agentic payment example.

我觉得这个话题有很多可以聊的，约翰。

I mean, I think there's a lot a lot of ways this conversation can go, John.

比如代理广告。

There's, like, agentic ads.

还有那些。

There's all that.

但我认为代理经济真的很有意思。

But I think the agentic economy is is is really interesting.

我是说，我……

I mean, I'm...

我完全生活在持续的AI焦虑中，基本上就像旧金山的其他人一样，而且我确实有12个代理在运行，甚至在这个播客进行中也在跑。

I I totally live in constant AI psychosis, basically, like everybody else in San Francisco, and I've literally got 12 agents, like, chugging along even in middle of this podcast.

但是，那个世界，对吧，是真实的。

But, that world, right, is real.

而且，显然，加密货币作为可编程货币，是AI的完美货币。

And, obviously, crypto being programmable money, it's the perfect currency for AI.

所以我觉得，你会越来越多地看到AI和加密货币之间的碰撞。

So I think increasingly, you're gonna see this collision between AI and crypto.

而且搞AI的人不喜欢加密货币，所以我们得重新……

And the AI people don't like crypto, so we're gonna have to re re...

我们得把它重新包装成稳定币和支付，因为那是它的新名字，这没问题。

We're gonna have to rebrand it as stablecoins and payments because that's that's the new name for it, which is fine.

但你会越来越多地看到这种碰撞在未来发生。

But you're gonna increasingly see that collision happening going forward.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，这种碰撞和未来正是我想在这段对话的最后一部分跟你聊的。

Well, this collision and going forward is exactly what I wanna talk about with the last little chunk of this conversation here.

马特，我想先请你来谈谈。

And, Matt, I wanna start with you.

我们有一阵子没聊了。

It's been a while since we have caught up.

我们的Milk Road听众很喜欢听你对市场的看法。

Our Milk Road audience loves hearing your takes on the market.

你最近一直在做路演，跑遍全国，跟机构投资者交流。

You've been doing a roadshow traveling the country, talking to institutional investors.

你在路上听到了些什么？

What what are you hearing on the road?

你的看法是什么？还有，你从最近这些对话中学到了些什么？

What's your outlook, and and what are some of the lessons you're learning from from these conversations you've been having recently?

我觉得过去两周我参加了八九个传统金融会议，差不多一天一个。

I think I've been at eight or nine TradFi conferences in the last two weeks, so that's almost one a day.

他们非常看好。

They're extremely bullish.

简单来说就是这样。

I mean, that's the short story.

总结一下，他们非常看好。

The TLDR is they're extremely bullish.

我觉得，你知道，投资者总是在寻找他们认为有趣的非共识押注。

I think, you know, investors are always looking for non consensus bets that they think are interesting.

而且发生了一件可能很重要的事，就是AI已经变得如此共识和主流，以至于它不再占据那个能让我从投资组合中获得超额收益的细分领域了。

And one thing that's happened that's probably important is AI has become so consensus and so mainstream that it's no longer occupying that niche of where I'm generating excess returns from a portfolio.

所以我们看到传统投资者在四处寻找可能的新方向。

So we're seeing traditional investors sort of cast around for what that could be.

他们落脚的地方之一就是加密货币，特别是与稳定币和代币化相关的任何东西。

And one of the places that they're landing is on crypto and specifically on anything associated with stablecoins and tokenization.

原因是他们看到加密货币遵循传统的四年周期。

And the reason is they're seeing crypto follow a traditional four year cycle.

他们想象我们正在进入一个新的阶段。

They imagine that we're entering a new period.

他们看到了支持加密货币的监管推动。

They're seeing the pro crypto regulatory push.

然后重要的是，他们看到了即使在熊市中，现实世界的增长指标也惊人地强劲。

And then importantly, they're seeing real world metrics of just astounding growth even through a bear market.

他们把这些结合起来，认为这可能是非共识但正确的交易，能带来超额回报。

And they're putting those together and saying, maybe this is the non consensus, but correct trade where I'm gonna generate excess returns.

我从未对财务顾问对这些配置的兴趣感到如此兴奋。

I don't think I've ever been more excited about the state of financial advisor interest in these allocations.

他们不太确定如何从投资角度表达稳定币和代币化，是混合加密资产，还是混合加密股票，或者两者兼有。

They're not sure exactly how to express stablecoins and tokenization from an investment perspective, whether that's a blend of crypto assets, whether that's a blend of crypto equities, whether it's a combination of both.

他们有这类问题，但他们知道这是一个他们想要跟上的大趋势。

They have those sorts of questions, but they know it's a megatrend that they wanna get behind.

我认为我们会在今年最后三个月看到来自那个群体的显著资金流入。

And I think we're gonna see significant inflows from that audience in the in the last three months of the year.

所以这是一个我真的很想听听AGM看法的的问题，因为Matt，你提出的观点非常好。

So this is a question I would really like to hear, you know, AGM's thoughts on this because, Matt, what you bring up is is a great point.

现在每个人都在看好代币化，都在谈论它，但我在Milk Road的社区成员问了我很多问题，就是怎么参与进来。

Everyone is bullish on tokenization right now and talking about it, but my community at Milk Road is asking me lots of questions of how do I get exposure to this.

是不是直接买以太坊和索拉纳这样的第一层区块链？

Do I just buy the layer ones like Ethereum and Solana?

要不要投资像Aerodrome或Uniswap这样的去中心化交易所？

Do I invest in decentralized exchanges like Aerodrome or Uniswap?

或者，你知道，也有人问我关于Ondo或Securitize的事情。

Or, you know, people are asking me about on do or Securitize.

Adrian，你知道，作为……

Adrian, you know, as...

从一个深入了解这项技术建设的人的角度来看，你觉得这些不同选项之间，价值会怎么积累？从价值积累的角度，你是怎么看的？

From a perspective of somebody who's deep in the weeds on on people building on this technology, where do you see value accruing between these things, and just how do you think about that from a a value accrual perspective?

在这个技术栈里，大部分价值会落在哪一层？

Where in the stack a lot of this shakes out?

我完全同意Matt说的。

Just a plus one, what Matt said.

我是说，我刚才转推了一个叫Top Tongue的风险投资人……

I mean, I I just retweeted, this VC called top tongue...

Tom Tongas，他一直关注加密货币和人工智能。

Tom Tongas who keeps an eye on crypto and AI.

他说，最大的……

And he said that the big...

增长最快的市场，就像你说的，AI现在有点共识了，其实不是AI。

The fastest growing market, to your point about AI being a little consensus now, is actually not an AI.

而是加密货币。

It's a crypto.

所以现实世界资产的现货交易量在20个月内增长了500倍。

So real world asset spot volumes had 500 x in twenty months.

这个数字就算按AI的标准来看也很大。

That's a big number even by AI standards.

这意味着一切。

And this means everything.

这意味着代币化的股票。

It means tokenized equities.

意味着债券。

It means bonds.

意味着大宗商品。

It means commodities.

我觉得，Hyperliquid 可能占了其中很大一部分。

I mean, hyperliquid is probably a huge part of that number.

所以你看……

And so you...

整个世界都在上链。

The world is coming onchain.

这真的在发生。

Like, is happening.

毫无疑问，而且还在加速。

There's, no question, and it's only accelerating.

那你怎么操作？

How do you play it?

我觉得我可能不能在播客里推荐具体的个股。

I mean, I probably can't plug individual names on podcasts.

这是现实情况。

It's a reality.

而且如果我持有它们，我还得披露，那就更尴尬了。

And then I'd have to disclose if I held them, so it'd be even more awkward.

完全

Full

披露。

disclosure.

我什么都持有。

I hold everything.

我全都持有。

I hold all of it.

我，我

I'm I'm

全都持有。

Hold all of it.

每一个案例。

Every case.

连竞争对手的也持有。

Even competitors.

全都持有。

All of it.

他不想提Coinbase。

He doesn't wanna say Coinbase.

但我可以提一下。

But I'll throw it out there.

你看，我觉得答案就是，在技术繁荣的这个阶段，任何时候你都应该持有各种各样的资产，而不是选错方向。

Look, I think the answer is at any time you're in this phase of a technology boom, the answer is to own a wide variety of things and not pick the wrong horse.

去问问那些在2002年买了Ask Jeeves而不是谷歌的人，看看他们现在过得怎么样。

Talk to somebody who bought Ask Jeeves instead of Google in 2002 and see how they're doing today.

我觉得这就是我们现在在代币化领域的情况。

I think that's the case where we are in tokenization.

所以，你问题的答案是，我是否拥有L1、应用或公司？是的。

So the answer to your question, like, I own l ones or apps or companies is yes.

你知道，我不知道价值会在这些类别之间如何分配，但我敢打赌，如果这个东西涨2000倍，它们可能都会不错，或者至少足够多的会不错。

You know, I don't know where the value is going to accrue between that cohort, but I bet if this thing 2,000 x is, they're probably all gonna be okay, or at least enough of them are going to be okay.

所以我真的……

So I really...

你知道，我们想告诉人们的是，不要太自作聪明，去找一个你认为代表未来的资产。

You know, that's our message to people is don't try to be too cute about it, and find the one asset that you think represents the future.

从历史上看，这一直是个很难的赌注。

That's historically been a challenging bet.

你更……

You're much...

如果这个测试版够好，而且我觉得这里的测试版确实够好，那就买一整套这些东西。

If the beta is good enough, and I think the beta here is good enough, buy a suite of these things.

而且，我觉得剩下的就简单多了。

And, and I think the rest is easier.

马特，你知道我们需要什么。

Matt, you know what we need.

我们需要一个由 Bitwise 构建的代币化 ATP。

We need a tokenization ATP that's been built by Bitwise.

这就是我们需要的。

That's what we need here.

就是这个。

There it is.

好的。

Alright.

我们把它推上线吧。

Let's get it launched.

我们把它推出去吧。

Let's get it launched.

我肯定会把我们要的股票发给你。

I'll shoot you the the equities we want for sure.

但你说得完全对。

But that's exactly right.

我觉得人们需要的正是这种广泛的敞口。

That is what people need, I think, is broad based exposure like that.

这个回答很有道理。

That was a very well reasoned answer.

而且今年夏天我采访扬·本·埃克时，他也跟我说了同样的话：别耍小聪明。

And don't get cute is what Jan Ben Ek said to me this summer when I interviewed him too.

所以这里面有很多智慧。

So there's a lot of wisdom in that.

好的。

Alright.

好，

Let...

我们来聊聊接下来的路线图吧。

Let's talk about the road map here.

AGM，我想先听听你的看法。

AGM, I wanna start with you.

下一步是什么？

What's next?

代币化方面有什么新动向？

What's next for tokenization?

Base 方面呢？

What's next for base?

进入 2026 年最后阶段，你眼前有什么计划？

And just what's on your your horizon going into the last part of 2026 here?

你重点关注哪些事情？

What what are you focused on?

我觉得最重要的事情，显然是在美国激活代币化股票。

I mean, the big things are obviously activating tokenized equities in The US.

我觉得这没什么好神秘的。

I think no no mystery there.

我们节目一开始就聊过这个。

We kinda started the show talking about that.

我觉得这是可行的。

I think it's gonna be doable.

我觉得要走到那一步，还有很多细节需要落实。

I think it's gonna be a lot of lot of i's have to be dotted and t's have to be crossed to get there.

我觉得就是让……

I think just get...

让Coinbase的零售用户能接触到，对吧，向普通Coinbase用户开放，我觉得这样能扩大零售分销。

Getting in Coinbase retail, right, opening it up to to the average Coinbase user, I think having more retail distribution for it.

我们现在确实有一些零售合作伙伴，但说实话，我觉得规模还远远不够。

And we have a we have a number of retail partners now, but I wouldn't say it's at, like, scale at all, to be honest.

借贷这块挺有意思的。

The lend and borrow side is interesting.

再说，你知道，如果你想做杠杆做多某只股票，或者通过持有股票来赚钱，甚至做空它，这些能力都很重要。

Again, you know, the ability to to to do a levered long on a stock if you want or to earn money for holding a stock to be able to short it.

我们还需要在功能上与传统金融世界看齐，甚至做得更好。

We still need to get the kind of feature parity with the TradFi world or even better.

比如，我只要持有股票就能赚钱。

Like, I can earn for just holding a stock.

顺便说一句，当这种情况发生时，我觉得你会开始看到人们把链下的资产搬到链上来。

When that happens, by the way, I think you're gonna start seeing things like people are gonna take offchain holdings and bring them onchain.

他们会像……

They're gonna like...

这个目前还不存在，因为我们推出得太快了，但将来必须为普通用户提供一个铸造窗口，他们会说，你看。

Sort of doesn't exist yet because we've, like, shipped it so fast, but there's gonna have to be like a mint window for the average user who's like, look.

而且理想情况下，不会产生新的成本基础。

And then obviously without a new cost basis ideally.

比如说，我持有英伟达一千股，一直拿着，赚了不少。

Like, hey, I own a thousand shares of, you know, Nvidia and I've been, you know, gig along and I'm up a bunch.

我想通过借出这些股票来获得收益。

I I wanna get paid for for lending them out.

我怎么把它们转到链上呢？

How do I bring them onchain?

这最终会实现的。

That's gonna be possible eventually.

所以像这样的情况，让你更愿意把股票放在链上而不是放在传统券商那里，我觉得这是下一个大趋势。

So things like that, making it such that you'd actually rather have your stocks onchain than whatever your conventional broker is, I think is the kind of the next big step.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

那么，Matt，同样的问题问你。

And, Matt, same question to you.

我们刚才开玩笑说你在Base上做代币化ATP，但Bitwise推出产品的速度真是惊人。

You know, we just joked about you doing a tokenization ATP on base, but Bitwise has been launching products at an amazing clip.

你们已经推出了Near ETF，我记得还有一个Lighter ETF。

You guys have launched a near ETF, I think a lighter ETF.

还有很多其他产品也陆续上市了。

A lot of other products have come to market here.

关于这些产品，我们应该了解些什么？Bitwise接下来的路线图是什么？

What should we know about some of these, and what's next on the road map for for Bitwise?

你看，

Look.

我觉得还有一些单一加密资产需要更多的ETF敞口，这些资产我们认为有显著的上涨空间。

I think there's still some single crypto assets that need more ETF exposure, assets where they think there's significant upside.

我认为Near就是一个很好的例子。

I think Near is a great example of that.

Near是一个相对较小的资产，但野心很大，在intense上取得了巨大成功，在AI方面也有很大的目标。

Near is a relatively small asset, but with very large ambition, having great success on intense, having great sort of goals on the AI side.

所以我觉得你会看到我们再推出几个单一资产的ETP。

So I think you'll see us do a few more single asset ETAPs.

我确实觉得在稳定币方面，我们接近市场需要主题化投资和单一资产投资并重的时刻了。

I do think toward the stable coin idea, I think we're close to the moment in the market where people want thematic exposure equal to their single asset exposure.

以前我们在加密领域都是部落主义者，但现在有些人成了代币化极端派和稳定币极端派。

It used to be we were all tribalist in crypto, but now there are some people who are like tokenization maxes and stablecoin maxes.

我觉得当这种情况出现时，就能推出一些新的ETP。

I think when you get that, you can get some new ETPs.

然后你会看到Bitwise在链上做更多事情。

And then I would look for Bitwise to do more onchain.

我们现在是主要的质押服务提供商。

We're now a major staking provider.

我们现在在做金库业务。

We're now doing vaults.

我们也在做ATP。

We're doing ATPs.

我们确实认为这是我们业务的重要组成部分。

We definitely see that as a big part of our business.

所以未来，你知道，我认为Bitwise的业务中，链上和链下将各占一半，这就是我们的发展方向。

So in the future, you know, I think an equal part of Bitwise's business will be onchain as offchain, and that's sort of where we're driving.

好的。

Okay.

那么，这是给两位的最后一个问题。

So final question here for both of you.

我想了解一下，就是，大致的方向，你知道，风向……

I wanna get, like, you know, just directional, you know, wind in the...

凭感觉判断一下，目前加密货币整体风向如何，因为很多人担心宏观环境在恶化，比特币这波涨势会消退。

Finger in the air, which way the wind is blowing on crypto overall here because a lot of people are worried that the macro environment is deteriorating and that this rally in Bitcoin is gonna fade.

而我认为我们已经进入了一个新的牛市，很多人也持同样看法。

And I think we've broken out into a new bull market, and a lot of other people are leaning in that direction.

你们两位怎么看？

Which way do you guys shake out on this?

你觉得比特币会超过十万还是低于十万？

Do you think we're over or under a 100 k on Bitcoin?

安东尼奥，如果你不能给出价格预测，我一般想听听你对当前市场的看法。

Antonio, if you can't give a price prediction, I would just generally like to hear, you know, your perspective on the markets here.

先听你说，然后我们再听另一位。

Let's start with you, and then we'll finish with

你不会想听我预测比特币价格的。

You don't wanna hear my Bitcoin price predictions.

每次我开比特币仓位，预测总是错的。

They've been they've been always wrong every time I've opened a position of Bitcoin.

所以我在预测这方面非常差劲。

So I'm I'm horribly bad at predicting that.

不。

No.

总的来说，我看好加密货币。

I'm bullish crypto in general.

实际上，我现在比五到七年前刚进入加密领域时还要乐观，因为现在就像是有五个人组成的部落开始上线了。

I'm actually the most bullish I've ever been since I've since I started in crypto five, seven years ago, precisely because it's like the tribe of five people coming online.

比如说，如果你去……

Like, if you go to the...

我给你讲个小故事。

I'll give you a little anecdote.

如果你去Coinbase的纽约办公室，你会发现那里的人和我二十年前在高盛共事的人是同一批，这绝对是个看涨信号。

If go to the New York office of Coinbase, it's like the same people I was working with at Goldman twenty years ago, which is a bull signal.

还是那些穿着Patagonia背心的人，在讨论链上大规模交易，而不是把它当成什么奇怪的小型社会实验。

It's the same guys in the in the the Patagucci, like, talking about trading in size onchain, not as some, like, weird little social experiment.

就像，哦，不。

It's like, oh, no.

这已经是世界运转的方式了。

This is just the way the world works now.

这就是你看到的变化。

Like, that's the change you're seeing.

而且我觉得这会发生得比我们想象中更快。

And I think it's gonna happen faster than we think.

而且我觉得十年以后……

And I think ten years from now...

我们现在都已经深陷其中了。

We're all caught up in it now.

但十年以后，每个人都会理所当然地认为，他们可以在一瞬间交易股票，还能因此获得报酬，并且有自动交易程序在运行。

Ten But years from now, everyone's just gonna assume that they trade equities in a split second and get paid for it and have ATPs running.

哦，这就是世界的运作方式。

Oh, that's just the way the world works.

技术就是这样运作的。

That's how technology works.

当人们在这种环境中长大时，他们就会认为这是理所当然的。

Everyone just assumes it's true when they grow up in it.

但接下来就是……

But then it's...

要走到那一步，过程是很复杂的。

This is the tangle to to to get to that point.

比以往任何时候都更乐观，这永远是个可以接受的答案。

More bullish than I've ever been is always an acceptable answer.

所以谢谢你，AGM。

So thank you for that, AGM.

Matt，你……

Matt, what what...

你的……

What's your...

你对此有什么看法？

What are your thoughts here?

我也觉得，我比以往任何时候都更乐观。

I'm also more bullish, I think, than I've ever been.

这是一次基于基本面、监管改善和受众扩大的加密货币上涨。

This is a a crypto rally based on fundamentals and improving regulation and a widening audience.

现在的情况还是这样，你知道，以比特币为例，95%的比特币已经被持有，但95%的投资者并没有持有它。

It's still the case that, you know, 95% of all Bitcoin to use that example is already owned, but 95% of investors don't own it.

我觉得这两者必须碰撞，最终结果就是价格更高。

I think those two have to collide and come with an outcome of higher prices.

我认为，除非传统资产市场出现大幅回调，否则加密货币正处于一个长期牛市，而且这个牛市很有持续性。

I think absent a dramatic market pullback in traditional assets, crypto is in a a long term bull market that has a lot of sustainability to it.

所以我会逢低买入，而且我对一年后的情况感到非常兴奋。

So I'd be I'd be buying on dips, and and I'm pretty excited about where we'll be in a year.

马特·霍根，Bitwise的首席投资官，以及AGM，安东尼奥·加西亚·马丁内斯，Base的增长负责人。

Matt Hougan, CIO, chief investment officer at Bitwise and AGM, Antonio Garcilla Martinez, head of growth at Base.

非常感谢两位来到Milk Road加密节目。

Thank you both so much for being on Milk Road crypto.

我真的很喜欢这一期。

I really enjoyed this episode.

我觉得我们的观众也会喜欢的。

I think our audience is gonna love it too.

我想请你告诉我们，我们的观众可以去哪里找到你们两位以及你们在网上的作品。

I would like you to just tell us where we can send our audience to find more of both of you and your work online.

AGM，先从你开始吧。

AGM, let's start with you.

在推特上搜Antonio GM。

At Antonio GM on Twitter.

我在推特上是Matt下划线Hogan，Hogan里面有个u，有点奇怪，但就是这样。

I'm at Matt underscore Hogan on Twitter, and Hogan has a u in it, which is weird, but, you know, it's the way it is.

你还有公开的……

And you also public...

你想不想顺便提一下你的CIO备忘录？

Do you wanna plug your CIO memo?

因为我想……

Because I'd

……推荐你的CIO备忘录。

like to plug your CIO memo.

我每周写一篇叫《CIO备忘录》的文章。

Write every a week called the CIO memo.

你可以在bitwiseinvestments.com上获取。

You can get it at bitwiseinvestments.com.

它通常会涵盖当周加密货币领域最重要的话题。

It tends to cover the most important topic in crypto that week.

文章总是控制在一千字以内，读起来很轻松。

It's always under a thousand words, so it's an easy read.

而且，我很希望你能订阅。

And, I'd love for you to subscribe.

这是免费的。

It's free.

我特意确保我们提到了这个，因为这是我在加密货币领域最喜欢读的内容之一。

I wanted to make sure we got that in there because it's one of my favorite things to read in crypto.

两位先生，非常感谢你们来到《Milk Road Crypto》节目。

Gentlemen, thank you both so much for being on Milk Road Crypto.

这期节目太棒了。

This is a great episode.

聊得真不错。

Really great conversation.

非常感谢两位的到来。

Thank you both so much for being here.

谢谢。

Appreciate it.

多谢。

Thank you.

也感谢大家的收听。

And thank you all for joining us.

希望你们今天都有所收获。

I hope you all learned something today.

我自己就学到了不少。

I know I did.

那么，下次再见，注意安全，保持学习，保持乐观，我们下期Milk Road加密节目再见。

So until next time, stay safe, stay educated, stay bullish, and we will see you all on the next episode of Milk Road crypto.

感谢大家的到来。

Thanks for being here, everyone.

再见。

Bye.

感谢收听Milk Road。

Thanks for listening to Milk Road.

如果你喜欢这期节目，记得点赞和订阅。

If you enjoyed the show, make sure you like and subscribe.

如果你在市场中难以找到赢家，这正是Milk Road Pro的用武之地。

And if you're struggling to find winners in the market, that's exactly what Milk Road Pro is built for.

我们的分析师提前发现了不少大赢家，Pro让你看到他们接下来买什么，每一笔交易，以及每个仓位背后的研究。

Our analysts have called some of the biggest winners early, and Pro lets you see what they're buying next, every trade they make, and the research behind every position.

点击下方链接，查看Milk Road Pro。

Check out Milk Road Pro at the link below.

你在Milk Road上听到的所有内容仅供参考。

Everything you hear on Milk Road is for informational purposes only.

这些都是我们的个人观点，不是财务建议，而且我们可能持有我们谈论的一些投资。

These are our personal opinions, not financial advice, and we may own some of the investments we talk about.

一定要自己做研究，做出适合自己的决定。

Always do your own research and make the decisions that are right for you.

下次见。

See you next time.