加密货币的下一轮重大轮动已经悄然展开

Zcash在涨。

Zcash is going up.

我们可能得再做多一下其他币种，反正不在ICE上投资。

We should probably, you know, long the other again, not investing at ICE.

你最好也做多同板块的隐私代币，因为它们接下来会动，毕竟资金会轮动，大家也想看看还有哪些表现不错。

You probably should long the other, like, privacy tokens in that same sector because they're the next ones to move because people rotate capital and they, you know, wanna see what else does well.

那些赌徒们已经来到Robinhood链了。

The degens have come to the Robinhood Chain.

到底发生什么事了？

What is going on?

哪个项目受益最大？

Which project benefit the most?

这次这波迷因币狂热最终会把我们带向何方？

And where is all of this meme frenzy going to take us this time?

大家好，欢迎收听 Milk Road Show。这档播客深知一个道理：当 AMC 和 Robinhood 的高管在 X 平台上为律师团队争得不可开交时，真正的赢家其实是那些疯狂的散户投资者。

Hello, and welcome to the Milk Road Show, the podcast that knows that when the CEOs of AMC and Robinhood are arguing about lawyers on x, the degens are the real winners.

我是你的主持人，约翰·吉伦。

I'm your host, John Gillen.

今天是9月4日，星期五，今天我们请到了凯蒂·塔拉蒂。

Today is Friday, September 4, and today we are joined by Katie Talati.

凯蒂是Arca的研究主管，她在那里花了好几年时间深入研究加密货币价格走势的基本面。

Katie is the head of research at Arca where she spent years digging into fundamentals about crypto price action.

她每周都会写一篇专栏，名字就叫《是什么在推动代币价格》。

She puts out a weekly column literally called what is driving token prices.

她也在YouTube上做这个内容。

Also does this on YouTube.

所以如果有人能告诉我们这里到底发生了什么，她绝对是我们所有人的宝贵资源。

So if anybody can tell us what's actually going on here, she is gonna be a great resource for all of us.

今天能和她聊聊，我真的很兴奋。

I'm really excited to talk to her today.

如果你觉得不错，记得点赞和订阅。

If that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe.

把这一期分享给那些会喜欢它的人，或者正在一线打拼、需要一些信息的人。

Share this episode with somebody who's gonna enjoy it or somebody who's in the trenches and needs some information.

另外提醒一下，今天的播客是免费的，这离不开我们优秀的合作伙伴 Saber Money 的支持，他们是一个专为亚洲打造的稳定币支付平台。

And as a reminder, our podcast today is free, and that would not be possible without our wonderful partners at saber dot money, the stablecoin payments platform built for Asia.

稍后节目中会有更多关于他们的介绍，现在先欢迎 Katie 来到 Milk Road Show。

So keep an ear out for more information about them later in the episode, but for now, welcome to the Milk Road show, Katie.

你好吗？

How are

嗨，约翰。

Hey, John.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

今天能跟你聊天我真挺兴奋的。

I'm really excited to talk to you today.

现在局势挺乱的，我想找个人帮我理清一下头绪。

There is a lot of chaos going on, and I want someone to help me make sense of some of this.

我们先从Robinhood Chain说起吧。

Let's start with the Robinhood Chain.

你能简单跟我们讲讲这里发生了什么，以及人们需要了解Robinhood上正在掀起的这股热潮吗？

Can you just tell us a little bit about what's going on here and what people need to know about the the frenzy that's taking off on Robinhood?

当然可以。

Sure.

对于那些没有密切关注的人来说，Robinhood基本上在去年宣布要推出自己的二层网络，而他们最终在今年7月1日做到了。

So for people who haven't been following as closely, Robinhood basically announced last year that they were gonna be launching their own l two, and they finally did it July first of this year.

我觉得我不想把它称为2020年的DeFi夏天，但某种程度上，这确实有点像Robinhood的夏天。

And I feel like I don't wanna call it like the DeFi summer of like 2020, but it was like, it's been a bit of a Robinhood summer in that sense.

所以，一开始活动有点慢，或者说不是慢，而是有很多应用在迁移过来。

So, activity was a little slow at the start, or not quite slow, but we had a lot of apps migrating on.

你看到所有大型DeFi应用都在说，我们要在Robinhood Chain上启动实例。但在过去几周，尤其是最近几天，链上活动出现了巨大的爆发，比如去中心化交易所的交易量、新交易数、链上收入等。

You saw like all the big DeFi apps saying, we're launching instances on Robinhood Chain, But in the last few weeks, you've just seen a huge explosion in on chain activity there, particularly in the last couple days, things like Dex trading numbers, new transactions, revenue on chain.

所有这些数字都飙升了，吸引了很多人的注意，因为显而易见的方式，你知道，要从中获益就是Robinhood的股票。

All of those numbers have spiked, and it's gotten a lot of people's attention because the obvious way to, you know, get exposure to that is Robinhood equity.

好的。

Okay.

所以Robinhood正在起飞。

So Robinhood is taking off.

Robinhood的股票正在大涨。

Robinhood's stock is taking off.

但就链上实际发生的情况而言，我听说很多关注都集中在Pawns Launchpad和FOMO应用上，我认为这些应用是不依赖特定链的，但Robinhood Chain上的大量交易量似乎正是来自这里。

But as far as what's actually on chain, I've heard a lot of attention on the Pawns Launchpad and the FOMO app, which I believe is chain agnostic, but this is where a lot of this volume on the Robinhood Chain seems to be coming from.

而且看起来很多来自之前Solana时代的那些“赌徒”们，现在开始在Robinhood Chain上做同样的事情。

And it seems like a lot of the degens from, you know, like you said, the the prior Solana days have now just started doing this on on the Robinhood Chain.

你看到这里发生了什么？

What are you seeing happen here?

你有没有看到任何放缓的迹象，还是说这只会继续加速？

And and do you see any signs of this slowing down, or is this just gonna keep accelerating here?

我觉得这很难说。

I mean, it's hard to tell.

对吧？

Right?

因为通常情况下，当你进入这种交易环境，看到大量过度交易活动时，人们往往会在一个地方赚到钱，然后把利润再投入进去，继续利用这些资金。

Because the thing is is that usually when you kinda get in these trading environments where you see a lot of excessive trading activity, what happens is that as people kind of make money in one place, they're rolling it over and then they're continuing to use it.

所以这不仅仅是让整体的蛋糕变大。

So it's not just like so you're kind of growing that overall pie.

不过从数据来看，我们发现如果观察用户流失和资金流出的情况，确实有很多用户把资金从Solana等地方撤出，现在转到了Robinhood Chain上，这一点挺有意思的。

What I have seen from the data though, we have actually seen that if you look at kind of like the drain number of users, number of funds, definitely a lot of those users have taken their money off of places like Solana, they're now putting it on Robinhood Chain, which is interesting to see.

很多人也猜测，这些流量可能来自以太坊等其他链，或者是新入场的散户在操作。

A lot of people also hypothesize that it was coming from other sources like Ethereum or it was new retail activity.

其实不是这样的。

Not quite.

不过 FOMO 这个应用倒是挺有意思的。社交交易功能被尝试过无数次了，但始终没人能真正把它跑通。

The FOMO app is actually an interesting one though because, like, social trading has been tried so many times again and again, and nobody's really cracked the code on it.

大家还记得 Friend Tech 这类带有社交属性的产品吗？

I mean, does anybody remember, like even even just anything with a social following, things like Friend Tech.

人们一直想方设法把推特代币化，但一直没成功。

People have been trying forever to, like, tokenize Twitter, and it hasn't worked.

但FOMO似乎真的找到了突破口。

But FOMO seems to have really, like, cracked that code.

我还听到很多专业交易员抱怨说，FOMO收取的费用高得离谱。

Now I've also heard a lot of actual, like, professional traders complain that, like, FOMO charges an egregious amount of fees.

所以你可以想象，愿意支付几个百分点交易费的，很可能就是散户群体，这大概就是实际情况。

So you have to imagine that it's very much a retail audience that's willing to pay, you know, like percentage points on their trades, which is maybe what's happening.

所以我们看到很多这方面的活动。

So we're seeing a lot of activity from that.

还有Pawns，另一个你知道的，它在用户数量和收入方面也表现得很出色。

And then pawns, another kind you know, it's been crushing it in terms of numbers and revenue as well.

我觉得，就在最近几天，他们这周早些时候的年化收入已经达到了8000万美元，当然，这只是基于一天的数据。

I think, like, the last few days, they've they've been seeing like, they were run rating earlier this week, like, $80,000,000 in annualized revenue, obviously, off of one day of data.

但他们基本上和Pumped Up Fund一样，后者显然只在Solana上运行，并且为Solana带来了大量的活动和收入。

But they I mean, they're basically they're the same as Pumped Up Fund, which obviously is just on Solana and has generated a lot of activity and revenue for Solana.

大家别忘了，PumpFun是继Hyperliquid之后史上第二大收入应用。

If your people forget, PumpFun is the second largest revenue generating app ever after Hyperliquid.

所以他们赚了不少钱。

So they make a lot of money.

Ponds现在也走在类似的轨道上。

Ponds is also kind of on that same track right now.

只是它的市值小得多，而且人们能亲眼看到这些活动在进行中。

It's just a much smaller market cap, and people could actually see that activity happening.

好的。

Okay.

那我们来聊聊这其中的赢家输家吧。

So let's talk about the the winners and losers on this.

你觉得这是Robinhood和Robinhood Chain为了抢占散户模因币市场而采取的统一策略，还是说这只是自然发生的？

Do you think that this was, like, a a concerted strategy by Robinhood and Robinhood Chain to try to go for the retail meme market, or do you think this sort of happened organically?

然后你刚才提到其他人之前也尝试过类似的做法。

And then, you know, you mentioned that other people have tried this before.

首先想到的一个大名字就是 Coinbase。

A big name that comes to mind is Coinbase.

你觉得 Coinbase 接下来会采取什么行动来应对这种情况？

What like, what do you think Coinbase is gonna do to respond to this?

所以，是的，请帮我梳理一下 Robinhood 在这方面的战略以及 Coinbase 的回应，顺便说说你对此的看法。

So, yeah, like, walk me through that that rivalry of of Robinhood strategy on this and Coinbase's response, and just what are your thoughts on that?

对。

Yeah.

说实话，我不这么认为。

So I won't lie.

我觉得Robinhood一开始并不是打算专门搞一条模因币链。

I don't think Robinhood set out being like, we're gonna make a whole meme chain up.

但大家容易忽略的一点是，模因币在加密圈和社区文化里依然这么火，原因就在于它们简单易懂。

But the the big thing that people still forget and the reason that memes are still very prevalent in the crypto, you know, community, the crypto culture, is just that they're easy.

理解起来没门槛。

They're easy to understand.

它们很容易交易，而且人们真的能看到投资这些项目的回报。

They're easy for people to trade, and people really see the ROI on investing in these projects.

这就是为什么它们仍然在某种程度上，你知道，已经深深扎根于加密货币的交易文化中。

And that's why they still kind of have this like, you know, they have sunk their teeth into the trading kind of fabric of crypto.

说实话，作为一个寻找基本面良好、长期投资机会的数字资产投资者，我讨厌其中很多都是模因币，因为这并不能真正体现什么投资眼光。

I'll be honest, as a digital assets investor who's looking for fundamental, like, great long term investments, I hate that it's a lot of it is memes because it doesn't really, like, point to any actual, like, you know, investing acumen.

这真的只是关于交易，而不一定是关于，嗯，哪个长期项目能有所作为。

It's really about trading and not necessarily about, like, okay, what's a long term, project that's going to do something.

话虽如此，有些模因币确实设法超越了这一点。

That said, some memes do manage to evolve beyond that.

它们试图构建一些东西。

They try to build things.

我很高兴，你知道，其中一些真的试图做出点名堂，但并非总是如此。

I'm very happy that, you know, some of them try to like actually make something of themselves, but it's not always the case.

但我觉得，Robinhood Chain 并不是一开始就只是想成为模因币的聚集地。

But I think I don't think Robinhood Chain set out to just be meme points.

我确实觉得他们需要创造一些活跃度，所以他们不会轻易关掉这个，因为他们在排序器费用上赚的钱，你知道，真的是非常可观。

I do think they needed to create activity, so they're not gonna kinda shut this down because the amount of money that they're making on sequencer fees is, you know, it's it's it's extraordinary.

你想想，赚到那么多钱，就可以把它作为一个全新的收入项目来报告。

You know, you make that kind of money and you can report that as a whole new line item.

这就是为什么现在股价在飙升，因为人们觉得华尔街目前还没有充分评估这些机会，或者说这个新的业务线。

That's why the stock is ripping right now because people don't think that, you know, Wall Street has properly evaluated these opportunities right now for or this this kind of new business line for them.

而且这会在财报上带来一些惊喜。

And it'll be a bit of a, you know, surprise at earnings.

我们拭目以待吧。

We'll see.

目前，他们实际上在补贴网络上的费用，所以，你知道，我们得看看一个月后这些补贴取消时会怎样。

Right now, they're actually subsidizing, fees on their network, and so, you know, we'll have to kinda see when those subsidies drop off in another month.

比如，那到底是怎么运作的？

Like, how does that actually work?

人们还会愿意支付更高的燃气费来访问链上并处理交易吗？

Are people gonna still be paying higher gas prices to, like, access the chain to push through transactions?

而且，如果他们还没找到那个新的热门项目，情况可能还是这样。

And, you know, if they haven't kinda found the new shiny thing, that might still be the case.

我们拭目以待吧。

We'll have to see.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我是约翰。

This is John.

听好了。

Listen.

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They had dozens of calls pay off in a big way for our community.

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You'll get access to all of our analyst trades, their watch list, and see how they're navigating this in their portfolios and get access to ask us questions in Discord anytime day or night.

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It's just a dollar.

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Link's in the description.

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Join now.

我们到时候见。

I'll see you there.

好的。

Okay.

所以Robinhood，就像你说的，那些迷因币，它们从中受益，但Robinhood也推出了很多代币化股票产品，这也是整个狂热的一个重要部分，就是迷因币和代币化股票之间的这些交易对。

So Robinhood, like you said, the the meme coins, they're benefiting from, but they also launched a lot of tokenized stock products, and that's a big part of this whole frenzy too is these trading pairs between memes and tokenized stocks.

Coinbase大约在一两周前也推出了代币化股票，看来这两家之间又要有一场竞争了。

Coinbase also launched tokenized stocks about a week or two weeks ago, and there seems to be another rivalry between these two brewing here.

跟我说说，代币化股票在我们看到的这场狂热中扮演什么角色？

Talk to me about where the tokenized stocks fit into this this whole frenzy that we're seeing.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，代币化股票从今年年初开始就真的火起来了。

I mean, tokenized stocks have really taken off since the beginning of this year.

你知道，我觉得今年年初，人们对待如何把现实世界资产带上链（RWA）这个问题，采取了更加深思熟虑的方法。

You know, I think the beginning of this year, people were taking a much more thoughtful approach to how do we bring kind of real world assets on chain RWAs.

不过，代币化股票是人们最容易交易的东西，对吧，因为在大多数情况下，它们代表了链上和链下之间的价格发现或价格匹配部分。

Tokenized stocks, though, are the easiest kind of thing for people to trade, right, because they represent, you know, in most cases, least price like, the price discovery part or the price match part between what is on and off chain.

在某些情况下，你实际上能获得持有该股票所附带的所有权利和权益。

In some cases, you actually get all the rights and pieces that go along with owning that stock.

它不仅仅是合成股票。

It's not just like a synthetic stock.

所以链上股票交易确实火了起来，这让我想到，我八年前刚进入加密货币领域时，甚至说过，链上大多数资产只是代币化的股票。

So stock trading has definitely taken off on chain, which is, I mean, when I started in crypto eight years ago, like I even said, was like, most of the assets that are on chain are just tokenized equities.

我当时的上司说，对，最终我们基本上就只是在链上交易代币化股票，而你会变成股票分析师。

And my boss at the time was like, yeah, eventually we're going to basically be just trading like tokenized equities on chain and you're just going become an equity analyst.

我当时想，哦，好吧。

I was like, oh, okay.

不错。

Cool.

我以为那还要等好几年，但现在我们已经做到了。

I thought that would be maybe like a few more years from now, but we are here now.

所以我确实认为这有点像数字资产的自然演变，而且最近因为监管环境更友好而变得更加可行，你知道，SEC和CFTC层面有很多讨论，关于如何妥善监管并提供指导，说明这些代币化股票产品应该是什么样子。

And so I do think this is kind of like natural evolution of digital assets, and it's been more enabled recently by the fact that we've had a more friendly regulatory regime that, you know, there is a lot of discussions at the levels of the SEC and the CFTC on how to kind of, like, properly regulate and offer, like, guidelines on how these tokenized stock products should look.

而且从ICE、DTCC、纳斯达克这些机构的做法也能看出来，他们都在琢磨怎么做到全天候二十四小时交易。

And it's also clear from you when you look at, you know, what places like ICE, DTCC, NASDAQ, they're all looking at, like, how do we make markets twenty four seven?

因为他们心里清楚，虽然现在已经有代币化股票了，但跟全球市场的总交易量比起来，还差得远呢。

Because they know that even though the like, there's tokenized stocks right now, it's not nearly the entire volume of all the markets in the world.

不过这种趋势正在形成，而且很快就会到来。

But that is happening, and it's gonna come soon.

所以我觉得这是一个巨大且不断增长的市场，我们肯定能看到它继续扩大。

So I think that that is a huge and growing market, we're definitely gonna see that continue to expand.

不过我觉得，目前大多数公司还处在一种比较实验性的阶段。

I think right now, though, for the most part, we're kind of in a bit more of an experimental stage for most of these companies.

他们其实只是在推出初步的测试版，看看这玩意儿到底怎么运作。

They're really just rolling out the initial kind of beta test of, how does this work?

客户们喜欢什么样的功能？

What do customers like?

另外，面向散户的产品和面向机构的需求肯定大不一样。

Also, what fits for retail is gonna be very different from institutions.

就我个人来说，现在如果我想买Coinbase的股票，我不会去买它在Base上的代币化版本，比如用于我们的数字资产基金。

Like, personally, right now, like, if I wanna go buy Coinbase stock, I'm not gonna buy buy the tokenized version of it on base, like, for our, you know, digital assets fund.

我会去传统的股票经纪商那里买，然后放在传统的机构经纪商那里，因为作为机构，你只能这么做。

I'm we're gonna be going to a traditional stockbroker and buying it there and holding it at a traditional prime broker because that's kind of, like, what you have to do as an institution.

所以要把真正的代币化股票带给机构，还需要30多个步骤，可能还要再过几年。

So to bring actual tokenized stocks to institutions, it's, like, 30 more steps and probably a couple more years down the road.

好的。

Okay.

所以从传统系统向代币化系统迁移，还有很长的路要走，但这件事正在发生，而且在加速。

So there's still a long trajectory of adoption and growth and, you know, migrating from the legacy system to the tokenized one, but that is happening and it's accelerating.

我想聊聊这次上线引发的DEX大战，因为Aerodrome有点像Coinbase上最大的流动性提供者和DEX，他们就是用这个DEX来推出代币化股票产品的。

I wanna talk about the DEX wars that this is on launch unleashed because Aerodrome is kind of like the the biggest liquidity provider and DEX on Coinbase, and that's the the DEX that they're using for their tokenized stock products.

Uniswap则拿下了Robinhood链上的大部分交易量，还有Robinhood链上掀起的模因币热潮。

Uniswap is the one that's getting the bulk of the volume from the Robinhood Chain and from the the meme frenzy that's taken off on the Robinhood Chain.

你能跟我们讲讲这些差异吗？

Could you tell us a little bit about some of these differences?

比如，我拉了一些数据，Uniswap 控制了 Robinhood 链上代币化股票流动性的大约 99%，基本上就是全部份额。

Like, what I what I see some some data I pulled up, Uniswap controls about 99%, like, basically, the whole share of the tokenized stock decks liquidity on Robinhood chain.

他们处理了，我想想，过去几个月大概有 200 亿美元的交易量。

They've processed, I think, billions of dollars, like, 20,000,000,000 in the last couple of months or so.

而 Aerodrome 在交易这些代币化股票的第一周就看到了 1 亿美元的流入。

And Aerodrome is is seeing a $100,000,000 of inflows in the week that they've been trading these tokenized stocks.

所以这两边都有很多增长，但跟我聊聊这两个 DEX 之间的区别，以及正在出现的竞争关系吧。

So there's there's a lot of growth on both of these, but talk to me about the differences between these two DEXs and the sort of rivalry that's emerging there.

当然。

Sure.

如果你不熟悉 Uniswap，他们从 2018 或 2019 年就上线了，已经很久了。

So if you're not familiar with Uniswap, they've been around since I think they launched in, 2018 or 2019, like, very long time ago.

他们真正开创了链上交易的自动做市商模式，基本上是我们没有中心化限价订单簿时最好的方式。

They really pioneered the, automated market maker process of trading on chain essentially the best way we have without a centralized limit order book in process.

所以对于单次交换来说，他们一直做得非常好。

And so for kind of single swaps, they've been fantastic.

他们也在新技术方面走在前沿，创建了webhooks，你知道，还做了各种解决无常损失之类问题的变通方案。

They've also been on the cutting edge of kind of new technology, creating webhooks, you know, creating all kinds of like workarounds for things like impermanent loss and stuff.

所以，但Uniswap已经存在很久了。

So, but Uniswap been around forever.

他们是第一个在Robinhood Chain上推出的，这显然给他们带来了巨大的优势，作为主要的链上交易场所。

They were the first to launch on Robinhood Chain, and that has been obviously a huge benefit to them as like the primary like on chain trading venue.

对他们来说，你知道，他们是最早的去中心化交易所之一。

As it is for them when they've been, you know, they're the, you know, one of the the first DEXs.

他们基本上是以太坊上最早的DEX之一，而且在那里也获得了很大的关注。

They were basically one of the first DEXs on Ethereum, and they managed to gain so much, you know, traction there as well.

所以先发优势在这方面非常重要。

So first mover advantage is very important in this sense.

但Uniswap，他们在2021年发行了代币，我想，而且他们实际上是在竞争对手发行了自己的代币之后才这么做的，那个竞争对手从他们的交易池中吸走了大量流动性。

But Uniswap, they issued their token in 2021, I think, and, they actually did it after they had a competitor, launch their own token, and it managed to take a lot of liquidity from their from their trading pools.

他们最终才推出代币来应对。

And they finally launched a token in response.

不过多年来，这个代币一直只是个治理代币。

The token though for many years has just been a governance token.

所以它主要用于投票。

So it's used for voting.

它也用于激励流动性提供者的空投，但除此之外就没啥大用处了。

It was used for emissions to incentivize liquidity, but really not much else.

直到今年，他们才终于做了几件事，把围绕这个代币的规则真正落实下来，比如明确说这个代币是主要的价值载体。

And they've only recently, in this just this year, managed to do a few things to really finally kind of like codify things around the token, which is they said that, you know, the token is like the main form of value.

他们在实验室业务里的股权并不是主要的受益方，而且他们终于开启了费用开关。

Their equity in their labs business is not really the main beneficiary, and they have turned on a fee switch, finally.

他们的费用开关机制有点复杂，所以我就不展开讲太多细节了。简单来说，就是在做每笔兑换时额外收取一笔手续费，除了流动性提供者原本拿到的那部分之外，这笔钱主要用来回购并销毁 UNI 代币。

The fee switch for them is a little complicated, so I won't get into too many of the details here, but basically, it takes a fee, an extra fee on each swap in addition to whatever fees that LPs take, and that is basically used to go and buy back and burn Uni tokens.

这个功能刚上线，这也是大家现在对 Uniswap 这么兴奋、它表现远超其他项目的原因之一。因为他们搞了这个操作，然后又上了 Robinhood Chain，那边的交易量简直疯狂。

Now that just started, part of the reason people are so excited about Uniswap right now and why it has outperformed so much is because they did this and then they launched on Robinhood Chain, and their volume on Robinhood Chain has been insane.

结果就是，光是链上这一块的活跃度，他们就销毁了大量的代币。

And as a result, they have burned a lot of tokens from just that on chain activity.

反过来看Aerodrome，它也是同样的AMM模式，但他们的代币运作方式有点不同。

Aerodrome, on the flip side, it is the, you know, same idea as a AMM model, but their token acts like slightly differently.

他们实际上用的是投票托管模型，但你可以把它想象成一个飞轮，用来更好地激励人们提供流动性，如果你不太熟悉这些DeFi术语，可以把流动性提供理解为做市。

So they actually use the vote escrow model, but you can kind of just think of it as a flywheel that they use for better incentive mechanism when it comes to like getting people to provide liquidity, which you can think of as market making if you're not really familiar with all these DeFi terms.

他们做的事情基本上不是把交易费以基础资产的形式返还给流动性提供者，而是发放Arrow代币的排放，这些排放会流向流动性提供者。

What they do is basically instead of giving fees back to liquidity providers in the form of whatever base asset is trading, they give them there's Arrow emissions that come out, and those emissions go to the LPs.

然后，这些流动性提供者可以选择将这些Arrow代币锁定在投票托管合约中，基本上就是质押它们，然后他们就能获得协议产生的所有交易费用，这些费用基本上就是这样分配的。

And then, essentially, those LPs can choose to lock those Arrow tokens in the vote escrow contract, but basically stake them, and then they earn all of the trading fees from the protocol that are essentially distributed that way.

这样做的作用是鼓励，而且你可以用这些费用来引导到各个流动性池。

So what it does is it encourages, and then with those fees, you can direct them to individual liquidity pools.

所以基本上，它形成了一个循环，你的流动性提供者就像你的股权代币持有者，同时他们也是将股权引导到特定池子的人。

And so basically, what it does is it creates a bit of a loop where you have your liquidity providers acting as kind of like your equity token holders, and they're also the ones who are kind of then also directing equity to certain pools.

所以，比如说你有一个新代币要上线，你可以说，好的，我要买一批Arrow代币，然后质押它们，然后我把我的排放引导到我想要做好的新池子上。

So you can, as a if you say you've got a new token launch, a main point, you can say, Okay, I'm going to buy a chunk of Arrow tokens, and then I'm going to stake them, and then I'm going to direct my emissions to the like to my new pools that I want to do well.

结果就是，你可以通过提供非常好的激励，比如给那些流动性提供者额外的排放，来鼓励人们提供流动性。

And as a result, you can basically encourage people to provide liquidity by offering like a really good, I really offering extra emissions to those liquidity providers.

所以这形成了一个很好的良性循环。

So it provides a really nice feedback loop.

结果就是，这个代币确实有实际用途。

And as a result, what it means is that the token actually has usage.

虽然它也用于治理，但它确实有实际用途。

I mean, it's also used in governance as well, but it actually has usage.

作为用户，你确实能从中获得收益，而且整个生态系统里每个人都紧密相连、目标一致。相比之下，Uniswap 就没有什么持有 UNI 代币的激励，这也是为什么直到最近它一直表现不佳。

You're actually getting revenue from it as a user, and everybody's kind of tied in and aligned in the ecosystem versus Uniswap where, you know, there's not really an incentive to hold the UNI token, which is why until recently, it really, you know, massively underperformed.

关于 Aerodrome 的最后一点是，目前它只在 Base 链上发行，而它的姊妹 DEX Velodrome 则在 Arbitrum 上发行。

The last thing on Aerodrome is that Aerodrome is currently only issued on base and Velodrome, their sister Dex is issued on Arbitrum.

不过他们实际上正在准备一个重大升级，我相信就在接下来的几个月内，他们会实现跨链。

Basically what they're doing though is that they've actually got a, a big upgrade coming, I believe in the next few months and they're going be going cross chain.

他们计划在每条 EVM 链上推出，包括 Robinhood、以太坊，以及任何其他 EVM 链。

They're planning on launching on every EVM chain, so that would include Robinhood, that would include Ethereum, that would include any LTU out there.

他们还会对引擎进行一些更新，让排放过程变得更加顺畅。

And they also have kind of some updates to their engine and how they kind of make more of the emission process a bit more, would say smooth or smoothed over.

但基本上这两家一直在互相较劲，因为有一段时间Aerodrome是Base上的主导DEX，那时候Base确实有很多散户活动，很多meme币活动。

But basically the two of them have been kind of at odds with each other because for a while Aerodrome has been the dominant decks on base, which for a while did have a lot of retail activity, a lot of meme activity.

自从Robinhood Chain上线以来，很多活动都转移过去了。

Since the launch of Robinhood Chain, a lot of that has migrated over.

Coinbase正试图把代币化股票带回来。

Coinbase is trying to bring tokenized stocks back.

Aerodrome是他们代币化股票的主要交易伙伴，这很棒，能看到这种协同，也高兴看到Coinbase支持自己生态里的本土项目。

Aerodrome is, you know, kind of their premier trading partner for those tokenized stocks, which is great to see, you know, kind of that alignment and good to see Coinbase, you know, supporting homegrown projects from their own ecosystem.

所以我们就等着瞧吧。

So we we will see.

我觉得，这场战争才刚刚开始。

I mean, the the wars are just starting in my opinion.

我想，等这次上线真正跑起来之后，我们会看到更多。

I think, like, kind of after this launch gets going, we're gonna see more.

而且，我应该在通话前跟你提过这个。

And, I think I alluded to you before the call.

我的意思是，大概再过两周，我们还有另一个L2要上线，这也可能会成为链上活动的一大推动力。

I mean, we have another l two launching in, like, another two weeks here that could also end up being, you know, a big boon for more on chain activity.

我们只能拭目以待了。

We'll just have to see.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，我也想聊那个，但我想先继续说说这个正在升温的竞争。

Well, I wanna talk about that too, but I wanna kinda stay on this rivalry that's heating up.

就像你说的，虽然已经持续很久了，但现在还处于早期阶段。

And like you said, it is still in the early stages even though it's been going for a long time.

我想多聊一点关于准入和回购的事情，因为这件事引起了很多关注。

I I wanna talk a little bit more about the the admissions, the admissions thing and the buybacks because this has been something that's gotten a lot of attention.

正如你所说，Uniswap 长期以来一直在尝试开启这个代币回购的开关。

Uniswap, as you said, for a long time was trying to turn on this token buyback switch.

他们终于搞定了，现在确实在为 UNI 代币持有者带来实际收入。

They finally got it in place, and it's now driving real revenue to the UNI token holders.

不过 Aerodrome 这边，我采访到了 Dromos Labs 的 CEO，也就是 Aerodrome 背后的团队负责人。

But Aerodrome, I had the CEO of Dromos Labs behind just the project behind, the team behind Aerodrome rather.

CEO Alex Cutler 这周早些时候上过这个节目，我也就此事向他提了不少问题。

The CEO, Alex Cutler, was on this show earlier this week, and I asked him a lot of questions about this too.

他说，从流动性提供者那里抽取一部分收益，再用这些钱来回购代币，这正是他认为 Aerodrome 可以抓住的机会，用来实现超越，并吸引资金从 Uniswap 流向自己。

But he says that that, skimming liquidity from the liquidity providers and using that to buy back the tokens is exactly the the opportunity that he sees for Aerodrome to exploit, to outperform, and to, like, attract capital away from Uniswap.

你觉得这个观点怎么样？

What do you think of that take here?

Uniswap 会有风险吗？还是说这又是那种大家都说要取代现有巨头，但最后谁也动不了 Uniswap 的情况？

Is Uniswap vulnerable, or is this gonna be another one of these things of like everyone says they're gonna dethrone the incumbent, but nobody's ever gonna actually displace Uniswap?

这个问题问得好。

It's a good question.

说实话，还真不好说，因为 Aerodrome 和 Uniswap 的运作机制差别太大了。

I it's hard to say because honestly, the, the the dynamics for Aerodrome are so different from Uniswap.

再加上 Uniswap 刚调整了他们的整个费用结构，现在也很难预测用户的行为会怎么变。

And because Uniswap just changed up their whole fee structure, it is hard to tell too like what is going to be the user behavior.

我这里说的用户行为，其实指的是流动性提供者。

And when I say user behavior in this sense, it's actually liquidity providers.

受影响最大的就是这些人。

Those are the ones who are most impacted by this.

其实我之前聊过另一个话题，就是关于费用结构变化对流动性提供者和用户的影响。

I actually, I had a different conversation kind of concerning, really what the fee switch change means for liquidity providers and for users.

所以重点是，Aerodrome的CEO，也就是Dromos Labs的负责人说的，他们是在从顶部抽成。

So the big thing is that, you know, what, the CEO of Aerodrome or with of Dromos Labs said is that they're skimming off the top.

这到底是什么意思呢？

What does that actually mean?

意思就是说，举个例子，现在在Uniswap上，比如你想用ETH换USDC。

So what it means is that so just as an example, so Uniswap right now, say you go trade you're going to trade ETH for USDC.

好的。

Okay.

以前的话，你可能要付大概30个基点的费用，这些费用是给流动性提供者的。

So in the past, you would pay, maybe you're paying like a 30 basis point fee that's being taken by the liquidity providers.

他们设了个上限。

They cap that.

他们把那部分拿走了。

They take that off.

那挺好的。

That's great.

流动性提供者，现在的问题是，我进去交易，我的费率假设是32个基点。

Liquidity providers, now what happens though is I go in and my fee is say, 32 bips.

对吧？

Okay?

那多出来的两个基点，现在归Uniswap了。

That two basis points, that is now going to the Uniswap.

他们给这个起了个奇怪的名字，好像叫个什么罐子之类的，反正就是钱进了这个池子，然后他们用池子里的钱去做程序化的买入和销毁Uni代币。

It's called it's I have a weird name for it, like something jar, but it's like they're it's going to this it's going in this, like, this pot, and then they're using out of that pot to do this programmatic buy and burn of Uni.

所以情况就是这样。

So that's what's happening there.

现在的问题是，对于自动化做市商产品中的流动性提供者来说，他们对冲无常损失的主要方式，基本上就是，当你在池子里交易时，两个池子会变得不平衡。

Now, what the concern is, is that for liquidity providers in automated market maker products, their main way of hedging against impermanent loss, which is basically the idea is that like as you trade in a pool, the two pools become like imbalanced.

他们对冲这种风险的方式是去中心化交易所，比如Coinbase、Binance、HTX之类的。

The way they kind of hedge against that is that they go to centralized exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, HTX, whatever.

他们通过套利来匹配那边的实际汇率或实际价格。

And they're arbitraging to what the actual rate or the actual price is over there.

因为基本上，当这些链上池子变得不平衡时，那才是决定资产价格的因素。

Because basically, as these pools become imbalanced on chain, the that that's what's determining the price of the asset.

所以，比如说，如果你的ETH价格在这些链上池子里差了5%，他们就会去套利，在去中心化平台上赚钱。

So if, say, your, you know, your ETH price ends up being 5% off in these on chain pools, they just go and they orbit out and make their money on decentralized venues.

现在的问题是，当你引入额外费用时，他们有一个误差范围，在这个范围内他们可以交易并盈利。

Now what happens is that when you introduce extra fees, they're they have a margin of error where they can basically trade and be profitable.

当你引入额外费用，不管是给Uniswap，还是向用户收取，即使是由用户支付，结果是他们的误差范围和盈利空间会稍微缩小。

When you introduce extra fees, whether it's going to The U whether it's, you know, assessed to the user or it's even though the user is paying it, what happens is is that their their margin for error and their margin to make money decreases just slightly.

因此，这改变了这些做市商和流动性提供者的套利模型运作方式。

And as a result, it changes how those arbitrage models work for these market makers, these liquidity providers.

所以，这确实是个问题，也是个阻碍。

And that's really the kind of the the setback there is the problem.

另外一点是，你得想想，现在已经是2026年了。

The other thing is like you have to think, okay, it's 2026.

Uniswap已经运行了八年，在这之前它一直保持着原有的费用结构，从未改变过。正因为如此，大家才会担心：天哪，我们真的要彻底改变整个费用体系吗？

We have had, okay, seven years of Uniswap eight seven, eight years of Uniswap being live before they introduced different fee structures, which were never there before, and that's why kind of that there's that concern of like, oh my god, are we gonna really change this entire fee structure?

这就是关键区别所在：新政策会直接压缩做市商的利润空间，影响他们的收益底线，结果就是他们会调整自己的操作策略。

So that is really the difference there is that you're eating into liquidity provider, you're cutting into their bottom line, and as a result, you're you're you're gonna have them change behavior.

现在的问题是，切换成本是否足够低，让他们觉得干脆放弃 Uniswap，转而去 Aerodrome 提供流动性。毕竟在那里，他们能拿到更多的协议分成。

Now, the question is, are the switching costs low enough that they're gonna say, forget Uniswap, I'm gonna pick up and go provide liquidity on Aerodrome where, you know, I'm earning I can direct you know, I I have more saying kind of the protocol.

他们能直接获得手续费，还能拿到 Aero 代币，相当于成了项目的股东，跟项目方的利益绑定得更紧密了。

I get more, direct fees, I'm getting Aero and becoming kind of like an equity holder as well, I'm more aligned with the project.

至于具体会怎样还不好说。你知道的，那些做市商和流动性提供者，他们的操作模式其实非常复杂。

TBD, you know, the makers and liquidity providers that have these setups where they are providing liquidity, these are very complex undertakings.

他们运行着大量的模型和机器人，在不同链之间进行套利。

They have lots of models, lots of bots running to do these arbitrage between different chains.

更可能的情况是，Uniswap 上某些池子的流动性可能会枯竭。

What it more likely means, yes, that liquidity could dry up on Uniswap in certain pools.

我们还得再看看。

We'll have to kind of see.

不过我觉得要看到行为上的这种转变，可能还得等几个月，尤其是因为我们已经看到大家开始转向 Robinhood Chain 了。

I think it's gonna be several months, though, before we see that shift in behavior, especially because we are seeing already a new shift in behavior going on to Robinhood Chain.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

这个回答里包含了很多信息。

There there's a lot in that answer.

关于这个，大家有很多需要了解的。

There's a lot for people to know about this.

我也一直在试着了解这些东西。

I've been trying to learn about this stuff too.

很多东西变化得特别快，因为就像你说的，很多都是上个月才发生的事情。

A lot of the stuff has changed very quickly because like you said, a lot of this stuff is just from the last month.

如果让你在接下来一年里，在Aerodrome和Uniswap之间押一匹马，你觉得哪匹跑得更快？

If you had to bet on on one horse in this race between Aerodrome and Uniswap for the next year, let's say, who do you think is the faster horse?

你觉得谁会在这里表现得更出色？

Who do you think is is gonna just outperform here?

天哪。

Oh gosh.

好吧。

Okay.

首先声明，这不是投资建议。

So not investment advice to start.

我的合规团队听到这个小小的免责声明会很高兴的。

My my compliance team will be very happy with this, with this, like, little disclaimer here.

这不是投资建议，但说实话，我们确实挺看好 Aerodrome，因为他们的代币模型更合理。

Not investment advice, but, you know, we really like Aerodrome just because their token model makes a lot more sense.

就像我刚才说的，这能真正把用户留住，让他们成为社区的一员，成为真正的持币者。

And like I said, it really locks in people in terms of actually being part of their community, part of their like one of their token holders.

Arca 一直非常支持持币者权益。我们真心希望发币方不要只搞些毫无价值的治理代币，让背后的实验室部门或基金会把巨额资金囤在国库裡不动。

Arca has long been very pro token holder rights, very we really want tokens that issue to not just be these governance tokens that weren't worth anything while, you know, labs divisions or, you know, that are foundations that are behind these projects, you know, just sit on giant treasuries.

所以我们非常支持那些真正能发挥作用的代币项目。

So we're we're very pro anybody who has like a token that works.

现在，Uniswap 最近已经做出了改变，这让我很高兴。

Now, Uniswap has managed change that recently, which I'm very happy about.

不过我觉得真正重要的是，我希望看到 Uniswap 在 Robinhood Chain 上的这种活跃度不只是一时的热潮，对吧？

I think what it really means though is that, what I want to see with Uniswap is that this kind of, activity on Robinhood Chain isn't just a flash in the pan, right?

因为就像我刚才开玩笑说的，大家都在把某一天的收入年化到全年，这太离谱了。

Because everyone like I joked earlier is like, we're annualizing one day revenues for the whole year, which is insane.

你实际上需要有历史数据支撑。

You need to actually have you have to actually have a history.

所以我觉得，如果六个月后Uniswap还在继续主导Robinhood Chain，而且Robinhood Chain本身的活跃度依然很高，并且带来了更多的代币销毁，那我可能会对Uniswap有更积极的看法。

So I think if I see six months from now that Uniswap is still continuing to dominate Robinhood Chain, that Robinhood Chain itself activity is really high, and it's leading to like this increased burn, then I would probably, you know, have a more favorable opinion on Uniswap.

但我觉得从目前的数据来看，现在说还为时过早，因为就像我说的，我不知道我们在Robinhood上看到的这种链上活跃度、这种链上复兴，是会持续下去，还是几个月后就消失了。

But I think from the data right now, it's too early to tell because like I said, I don't know if this on chain activity, this on chain renaissance we're seeing on Robinhood is gonna be, like, here to stay or if it's gonna fade in a few months.

你知道，我们在节目里经常聊到一个话题，就是加密货币正在迅速成为全球支付基础设施的重要组成部分，而这一点在亚洲表现得最为明显。

You know, one thing we've talked about a lot on this show is that crypto is quickly becoming a huge part of the global payments infrastructure, and nowhere is that more obvious than in Asia.

但如果你真的在运营一家汇款公司或支付业务，你就会知道，难点并不在于转移稳定币。

But if you're actually running a remittance company or a payment business, you know that the hard part isn't moving the stablecoins.

难点在于和当地银行合作、合规、流动性，以及向印度和东南亚等地汇款时遇到的各种运营上的麻烦。

It's dealing with local banking partners, compliance, liquidity, and all of the operational headaches that come with sending money into places like India and Southeast Asia.

这就是为什么我们今天的合作伙伴是Saber。

That's why today's partner is Saber.

他们为支付公司提供基于稳定币的基础设施，帮助它们在亚洲各地收款和付款，而无需自己搭建所有这些复杂的系统。

They give payment companies stablecoin powered infrastructure to collect and make payouts across Asia without having to build all of that complexity themselves.

他们已经在40多个国家处理了超过30亿美元的交易。

They've already processed more than $3,000,000,000 in transactions across 40 different countries.

所以这可不是个空概念。

So this isn't just a concept.

这些人是真的在实操。

These guys are actually doing this for real.

如果你正在搭建支付基础设施，或者打算拓展亚洲市场，一定要去了解一下 Saber。

If you're building payment infrastructure or expanding into Asia, make sure you check out saber.

搞定资金流转。

Money.

好的。

Okay.

所以你想看到一些实际的成绩记录。

So you wanna see some track record.

你希望这些趋势能持续下去，而不只是火几天就没了。

You wanna see some of these things last and not just be cool for a couple of days.

我觉得这很有道理。

I think that makes a lot of sense.

我觉得，是的，这不是投资建议。

I think, yes, not financial advice.

你自己做研究吧。

Do your own research.

你说的任何话都可能被用来对付你，在法庭上，对吧。

Anything you say can and will be used against your court of Yeah.

所有这些都放在这里。

All that goes here.

但对我个人来说，我觉得它们都会表现得很出色，我对这两件事都非常期待。

But for myself, personally, I think they're both gonna do incredible, and I'm really excited about both of these things.

所以，是的，我们看看结果如何。

So, yeah, we'll see how that plays out.

我想问你另一件事，在这个牛市或者实际上是熊市中表现非常出色的，就是Zcash，它同比上涨了，我觉得超过了一千个百分点。

I wanna ask you about something else that has been a huge performer in in this this bull market or actually in this bear market, really, but Zcash is up over, I think, over a thousand percent year over year.

他们刚刚上市了一个灰度ETF，很多人没想到这可能会带来更多机构采用，接触新的资金池，而且价格，我觉得，几乎达到了1000。

They just got a grayscale ETF listed, which a lot of people weren't expecting that this might bring some more institutional adoption, access to new pools of capital, And the price, I think, got almost to 1,000.

看起来可能还会继续涨，但你能跟我聊聊Zcash这股热潮吗？

Seems like it's gonna keep going maybe, but could you tell me a little bit about this craze around Zcash?

就是说，这只是一个隐私叙事，在熊市里乘风而起吗？

Like, is this just a a privacy narrative, like catching the wind, you know, in in a bear market?

你觉得这个项目能长久吗？

Do you think this is a a project that's here to stay?

为什么现在大家对Zcash这么狂热？

Why is everyone so, why is there such a frenzy around Zcash right now?

这个问题问得好，我也一直在问自己，因为我也在想，为什么是Zcash？

This is a great question, and I'm constantly asking myself that because I am like, why Zcash?

什么？

What?

就是那种老牌项目，我个人一直都没怎么兴奋过。

Like, these are one of these legacy projects that I personally never, you know, got that excited about.

我理解隐私叙事，但我一直觉得隐私只是一个功能，不是主要卖点。

I understand the privacy narrative, but I've always been the person of like privacy is a feature, not like the main attraction.

这话是什么意思？

What does that mean?

我觉得二层网络要是能自带隐私功能，那就太棒了。

I think it's great when L2 say, hey, we're going to have built in privacy features.

它们打算用零知识证明技术来隐藏交易记录。

We're going to use ZK technology to, you know, shield transactions.

所以从这个角度来看，这确实是个好消息。

And so I think from that aspect, it's great.

那为什么隐私这么重要呢？大家现在为什么这么在意隐私问题？

Why is privacy why do people care about privacy right now though?

为什么偏偏是现在，关注度这么高？

Why so much right now?

其实这事儿得从两方面来看。

So there's actually two sides to this argument.

第一点就是，随着机构开始大规模采用数字资产——这确实已经发生了。要知道，三年前还没这回事儿，但到了两年前、一年半前，大家的共识就很明确了：机构要进场了，他们要用加密货币。

The first is that with institutional adoption of digital assets, which it is here, like it wasn't three years ago, but two years ago and a year and a half ago, everyone was very much like, okay, institutions are coming in, they're going to use crypto.

但人们没意识到的是，能在链上看到资产流动，这既是好事也是坏事，因为你知道，很多时候我们看到钱包有动静，就会想，哎呀，有个比特币大户在卖币，市场要崩了。

But people don't realize is that being able to see assets move on chain, it's a blessing and a curse because, you know, half the time we see wallet move on on and we're like, oh no, there's a bitcoin whale and they're selling all their bitcoin and the market's going to tank.

这会引起很多恐慌。

It can cause a lot of fear.

那如果我们能标记一个钱包，说，天哪，那是贝莱德的钱包，他们在转移比特币，他们要卖掉，把市场搞崩，那会怎么样？

Now, what happens when we can tag a wallet and say, oh my god, that is BlackRock's wallet and they're moving bitcoin and they're gonna sell it and tank the market?

所以这对机构来说是个大问题，因为他们不想让别人知道他们的交易情况。

So it's a huge problem for institutions because they don't want people to know what is going on with their transactions.

所以Zcash确实解决了这个问题。

So Zcash does solve that.

大多数人认为Zcash其实是所有原始隐私代币中隐私性比较轻的那种，因为它基本上是可以选择开启隐私的。

Most people think Zcash is actually kind of like the privacy light token of all of the original privacy tokens because it's a you can basically it's like opt in privacy.

所以有些交易是可见的，但有些是受保护的，也就是说你看不到代币，也看不到它们流向哪里。

So some transactions are viewable, but some are called some are shielded, which means that you can't see the tokens, you can't see where they're moving.

但这确实是一个可选的功能。

And so but it that is kind of an opt in feature.

所以他们一直吹嘘说，这很棒，因为当你需要跟监管机构打交道的时候，他们对Zcash会很满意，因为有这种可选隐私功能。

So they've always touted that, you know, it's great because when you need to keep you know, you know, you need to work with regular regulators and stuff, they're they're gonna be happy with Zcash because there's, like, this opt in privacy.

大多数人用Zcash的隐私功能，是因为他们想要保护隐私。

Most people use the privacy features on Zcash because they want to be private.

但这就是那个说法的来源，就是说，机构会想要隐私。

But that is kind of where that narrative started, which is, you know, institutions are gonna want privacy.

现在反过来看，那些最初的，我觉得可以说是比较激进的人群，或者甚至就是那些加密货币的老玩家，他们看着比特币在过去三年里变成了一个非常机构化的产品。

Now the flip side, the original kind of, I would say, maybe degen community or even just like the o g crypto community, they have watched Bitcoin become this very institutionalized product in the last three years.

他们看着它从一种赛博朋克运动，一种不是人人都拥有的东西，变成了每天在CNBC上被讨论的话题。

They've watched it go from being, you know, this cyberpunk movement, this, you know, not everyone owns Bitcoin to Bitcoin is talked about every day on CNBC.

他们就觉得，这什么情况？

And they're like, what the heck?

现在比特币有大概50种ETF产品了。

There's now, like, 50 ETF products for Bitcoin.

感觉人人都持有它。

Like, everyone owns it.

你懂吗？

You know?

现在人人都持有比特币了。

You're you're everyone owns it.

大家都在谈论它。

Everyone's talking about it.

贝莱德也一直在吹捧它，这我很喜欢。

BlackRock is constantly, you know, on on you know, touting it, which I love.

我等这种普及等了好久了。

I've been waiting for this adoption for so long.

真高兴我们终于走到这一步了。

I'm so glad we're finally here.

但对于很多早期进入这个领域的人来说，他们真的觉得比特币本身已经变得太机构化了，所以现在它的价格更多是跟着ETF资金流走，而很少再受矿工资金流、技术分析，甚至钱包或大户钱包变动这些因素的影响。

But for a lot of people who had been in the space early, they really feel like bit Bitcoin itself has become too institutionalized, and that's why it trades much more now actually based on ETF flows and a lot less on things like minor flows, on, you know, TA, on even kind of wallet or whale off wallet movements.

现在比特币的走势很大程度上由ETF主导了。

It's, you know, much more ETF dominated.