Aerodrome 如何赢得万物代币化的竞赛

当我们思考链上产品的机会时，我们并不是在跟链上已有的东西做比较。

When we think about the opportunity for onchain products, we're not benchmarking against things that are happening onchain.

我们是在跟纽约证券交易所和纳斯达克这样的传统市场做比较。

We're benchmarking against things like the New York Stock Exchange and the NASDAQ.

我们认为链上市场潜力巨大。

We think the potential for onchain markets.

所以随着时间的推移，它们会逐渐蚕食那些传统业务。

And so over time, they will eat away at those, other businesses.

上周，Coinbase 在它的 Base 链上推出了代币化股票，流动性来自 Aerodrome。

Last week, Coinbase launched tokenized stocks on their base chain with liquidity from Aerodrome.

多年来大家一直在谈论代币化，但现在它真的来了，这到底是怎么运作的？

Everyone has been talking about tokenization for years, but now that it's here, how does it work?

这意味着什么？

What does it mean?

谁会赢得市场份额？

Who's going to win the market share?

关于这一切，你需要了解些什么呢？

And what do you need to know about all of this?

大家好，欢迎收听Milk Road秀，这个播客深知金融的真正未来，就是凌晨两点在汽车餐厅排队时，用手机上的应用直接把模因币换成NVIDIA股票。

Hello, and welcome to the Milk Road show, the podcast that knows that the real future of finance is swapping meme coins directly into NVIDIA from an app on your phone while you're sitting in the drive through at 2AM.

我是你们的主持人，John Gillen。

I'm your host, John Gillen.

我可不是在说自己的亲身经历。

I'm not speaking from personal experience.

我是你们的主持人，John Gillen。

I'm your host, John Gillen.

今天是8月31日，星期一，今天我们请到了Alex Cutler。

Today is Monday, August 31, and today we are joined by Alex Cutler.

Alex是Dromos Labs的CEO兼联合创始人，这家公司推出了Base链上最大的去中心化交易所Arrow。

Alex is the CEO and cofounder of Dromos Labs, the company behind Arrow, the largest decentralized exchange on Base.

今天Alex会和我们分享大量干货，说不定还会跟Uniswap叫板呢。

Alex is gonna share a ton of Alpha with us today and maybe pick a fight with Uniswap.

我们看看接下来会发生什么。

We'll see what happens.

如果你觉得不错，记得点赞和订阅。

But if that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe.

把这期节目分享给会喜欢的人。

Share this episode with somebody who's gonna enjoy it.

提醒一下，我们今天的播客是免费的。

And as a reminder, our podcast today is free.

这要感谢我们的优秀合作伙伴saber.money，一个专为亚洲打造的稳定币支付平台。

That would not be possible without our wonderful partners at saber.money, the stablecoin payments platform built for Asia.

所以稍后在节目中请留意更多关于他们的内容。

So keep an ear out for more about them later in the show.

话不多说，欢迎你，我想这是你第一次来Milk Road节目。

Without further ado, welcome, I believe, the first time to the Milk Road show.

Alex，你好

Alex, how are

你呢？

you?

我挺好的。

I'm doing well.

很高兴来到这里。

It's great to be here.

很高兴你能来。

I'm glad to have you.

我特意调整了播客的日程安排，就为了请你上节目，因为你在代币化领域算是当红人物。

I rearranged some of our podcast schedule to get you on the show because you were kind of the man of the hour in the tokenization world.

咱们先聊聊那个大新闻吧。

Let let's start with the the big news.

Coinbase在Base应用上推出了代币化股票。

Coinbase launched tokenized stocks on the Base app.

他们一开始上线了四种资产：NVIDIA、Metal、Apple和Alphabet。

They started with four assets initially, NVIDIA, Metal, Apple, and Alphabet.

跟我说说，Aerodrome在这其中具体扮演什么角色？你们到底做了什么才让这一切成为可能？

Talk to me exactly about the role that Aerodrome plays in this and what you actually built to make this possible.

对。

Yeah.

谢谢你的提问。

Thank you for the question.

我的意思是，这真是令人兴奋的时刻。

I mean, are incredibly exciting times.

你知道，我们在这个领域已经耕耘了四年，愿景一直很明确，就是要打造所有这些令人难以置信的基础设施，以便在链上实现全球最活跃、最实时、最具活力的资本市场。

You know, we've been building this space for four years, and the vision has always been, right, that we are going to build all this incredible infrastructure in order to enable the world's most vibrant, most real time, most dynamic capital market onchain.

而且我们知道，到目前为止，这当然主要代表的是我们迄今为止所见到的那类数字资产，对吧？

And we know that to date, of course, that has largely represented assets that look like the types of digital assets we've seen to date, right?

一些了不起的蓝筹股，还有比特币和以太坊、稳定币，以及在长尾部分有很多有趣的东西，就像你在开场时提到的那样。

Some incredible blue chips and Bitcoin and Ethereum, stablecoins, a lot of fun on the long tail, as you were mentioning at the setup here.

但我们的愿景始终是把全球的资产，把全球经济带到链上。

But the vision's always been to bring the world's assets, to bring the world economy onchain.

对我们来说，和Coinbase合作推出首批四种代币化股票产品，这是一件非常重要的事情。

And for us, this was a very big deal to partner with Coinbase to bring to market the first four tokenized stock products.

这些是全新的东西。

These are something entirely new.

到目前为止，我们在链上看到的代币化股票，大多都是衍生品、包装产品，或者某种代币化的债务证券、借条之类的。

What we've seen to date with tokenized stocks onchain is that these are largely derivatives or wrappers or sort of tokenized debt securities, IOUs, that type of thing.

而Coinbase这次推向市场的，是真正的股票，对吧？

And what we've seen Coinbase bring to market here is the real thing, right?

这些股票是一比一支持的，赋予受益所有权，由合格的托管人持有，不放在任何人的资产负债表上。

Something that is back one to one, conveys the beneficial ownership rights that is held by a qualified custodian, doesn't sit on anyone's balance sheet.

所以，这是货真价实的东西。

And so this is the real deal.

货真价实非常重要，因为如果我们想把世界经济搬到链上，想在链上建立强大的互联网市场和资本市场，就必须是真正的底层资产。

And the real deal is super important because if we are going to bring the world's economy onchain, if we're going to have these robust internet markets and capital markets onchain, it has to be the actual underlying assets.

而且我认为，随着我们现在看到的代币化扩张，这只是一个开始，接下来会发展得非常非常快。

And I think this is the beginning of something that's going to move very, very fast with the tokenization expansion that we're seeing right now.

你能再跟我多聊一点这个吗？

Could you talk to me just a little bit more about that?

你刚才提到这是链上的真东西。

You you spoke about how this is the real thing onchain.

你能帮我区分一下这种代币化资产或代币化股票，和市场上其他产品，比如X股票、Ondo，或者其他任何产品，有什么不同吗？

Differentiate for me this version of a tokenized asset or tokenized equity from some of the other products on the market like an X stocks, like an Ondo, like, anything else on the market?

因为大家都用同一个词“代币化”，我觉得有些听众可能不太明白其中的区别。

Because everybody uses the same word, tokenization, and I think some of the audience doesn't really understand the difference.

区别是什么？为什么这很重要？

What is the difference and why does that matter so much?

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果你在链上操作过一段时间，你会知道一个代币代表某样东西的区别，对吧，要么通过不可变的链上保证，比如智能合约，要么它和某个非常真实的东西挂钩，并且这两者之间存在一定程度的法律关系。

I mean, I think if you've operated onchain for some time, you know the difference between a token that represents something, right, in a very real way, either via immutable onchain assurances, right, smart contracts, or it's tied to something very, very real and there's a degree of legal relationship between those things.

而且我觉得，当然，我们在链上看到的进展是，事情从可能更实验性的IOU衍生品类型，转向了非常真实的东西。

And the progression, I think that, of course, we're seeing onchain is things moving away from maybe the more experimental IOU derivative type things into things that are very, very real.

我觉得为了让大家都明白，对吧？

And I think just to make this super simple for folks, right?

如果你去看很多其他股票产品的条款和条件，它们会非常清楚地说明这是什么。

If you go to the terms and conditions, right, of many of these other stock products, they're going to be very, very clear about what this is.

你知道，这是债务证券。

You know, this is a debt security.

这是衍生品。

This is a derivative.

这是包装产品。

This is a wrapper.

这是用来投机底层资产价格的方式。

And this is a way to speculate on the price of the underlying thing.

但你实际上并不拥有股票，也没有人能铸造、赎回它，并享有所有相关的受益所有权。

But you do not actually own the stock and nobody can take and mint and redeem it with all the beneficial ownership rights associated with it.

所以，你知道，Coinbase 在这里与合格的托管人合作。

So, you know, Coinbase is working with a qualified custodian here.

他们非常非常明确地表示，这些资产放在信托里，用户拥有完整的实益所有权。

They are very, very clear that this is in a trust that conveys full beneficial ownership to the users.

这意味着你可以享受股票拆分和分红等权益，基本上你对底层资产有索取权。

And that means you can bring to bear things like stock splits and dividends and that you basically have a claim on the underlying.

这非常重要，因为如果它不是真正的底层资产，我们就无法建立强大的链上现货市场，来支持这些资产在链上的增长。

And that is a big, big deal because if it is not the actual underlying, we cannot build robust onchain spot markets that can support like the growth of these assets onchain.

对。

Right.

因为我们已经看到，在Hyperliquid上，围绕现实世界资产和股票的交易已经很多了。

Because we've seen like on Hyperliquid, tons of trading around real world assets and stocks to date.

对。

Right.

但这些市场只是需要连接，需要从某个来源获取价格。

But these are just markets that need to connect to need to derive the price from something.

所以它们当然是从传统市场和预言机那里获取价格。

So they derive it from, of course, traditional markets and oracles.

我们看到的未来是，这些资产和围绕代币化股票等事物的市场越来越多地在链上存在，场外价格发现也越来越在链上产生，甚至我们看到的衍生品也将开始在链上获取价格，因为链上市场是全天候的，链上市场是全年无休的，链上市场是全球可访问的、完全透明的，这将使它们能够接入实时市场。

What we see the future as is these assets and these markets around things like tokenized stocks increasingly existing onchain, off market price discovery increasingly being created onchain, that the derivatives even that we see will begin to derive their prices onchain because the onchain markets are 20 fourseven, the onchain markets are three sixty five, The onchain markets are globally accessible, fully transparent, and that will give them the ability to tap into markets that are real time.

但只有底层资产是真实的东西，你才能做到这一点。

But you could only get that if the underlying asset is the actual real thing.

你需要功能上的对等，才能实现产品和分销上的对等。

You need functional parity to create sort of product and distribution parity.

我认为这是我们看到的第一个版本，你可以可信地说，是的，这是真东西。

And this is the first version I think we've seen that you can credibly say, yes, this is the real thing.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我是约翰。

This is John.

听着。

Listen.

我们的Milk Road Pro分析师精准抓住了这轮AI牛市。

Our Milk Road Pro analysts nailed this AI bull market.

他们有好几十次推荐都让我们社区的成员大赚了一笔。

They had dozens of calls pay off in a big way for our community.

如果你想看看我们整个分析师团队是如何为这轮熊市结束后的加密牛市做准备的，现在就可以加入Milk Road Pro。

If you wanna see how our entire team of analysts are positioning for the crypto bull market that's gonna come after this bear market finally ends, you can join us now at Milk Road Pro.

只要一美元。

It's just a dollar.

链接在描述里。

Link is in the description.

你可以看到我们所有分析师的交易记录、他们的关注列表，了解他们是怎么在投资组合里应对这些的，还可以随时在Discord上向我们提问，白天晚上都行。

You'll get access to all of our analyst trades, their watch list, and see how they're navigating this in their portfolios and get access to ask us questions in Discord anytime day or night.

只要一美元。

It's just a dollar.

链接在描述里。

Link's in the description.

Milk Road Pro。

Milk Road Pro.

现在就加入吧。

Join now.

我们到时候见。

I'll see you there.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是传统金融世界首次真正实现链上化，而你说把真实资产搬到链上，也会带动其他市场、用户和需求一起进来。

So this is the first real bridging of the traditional finance world moving that onchain, and you're saying that bringing the real thing onchain is also going to bring a lot of other markets and users and demand with it.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

我想更清楚地了解一下你之前提到的一个观点，就是说Aerodrome现在让持有这些链上股票的用户可以自己做市，有点像自己当自己的Citadel证券。

I I wanna get a little bit more clarity on something I've heard you say, which is that Aerodrome allows users with with these stocks on chain now to be their own market makers and kind of act like their own version of Citadel securities.

我觉得这跟一个叫“预测分配”的新功能有关。

I think this has something to do with a new feature called predictive allocation.

但是，亚历山大，我昨天大部分时间都在试图理解这个是什么意思，我还是有点糊涂。

But, But, Alexander, I I spent most of yesterday trying to understand what this means, and I'm kinda lost.

但请你用大白话，从用户的角度给我解释一下。

But explain this to me in plain English from a user's perspective.

在你们推出的这个产品里，我怎么才能成为链上的做市商？

How do I get to become a market maker on chain in this this product offering that you've launched here?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得我们可以把这两件事分开来看，因为任何人都能上链参与非常活跃的做市，这本身就是自动做市商的核心功能，一般来说是这样。

I mean, I think we can kind of separate the two pieces because the idea that anybody can come onchain and participate in the very active market making is a core feature of automated market makers, generally speaking.

对吧？

Right?

当然，世界上大多数人接触任何资产的机会都非常有限。

Of course, most people in the world have very restricted access to any type of asset.

而且即使有这些市场，它们也不是全天候运行的，更不是任何人都能参与进来的。

And where those markets do exist, they're not 20 fourseven and they're certainly not accessible to anyone to come participate.

所以链上经济最了不起的地方之一，也是AMM的核心创新之一，就是它让做市这件事变得开放，任何人都能参与其中。

So one of the most amazing things about the onchain economy and one of the core innovations of the AMM is that it makes the very act of market making an open thing that anyone can participate in.

那么，为什么随着更多资产类别的上线，这会变得如此有趣呢？

And so why is this so interesting as additional asset classes come online?

嗯，我拿上周的例子来说吧。

Well, I'll give the example of last week.

当然，我们看到英伟达公布了他们的财报。

We saw Nvidia, of course, announce their earnings.

对于那些可能不太熟悉股票市场或传统交易所的人来说，当然，市场在财报电话会议之前就收盘了，然后他们才发布财报。

And for folks, you know, who maybe not deep in the world of stocks and, you know, traditional exchanges, well, of course, the market closes before an earnings call and they release it.

但之后还有盘后市场，如果你是特定类型的人，你可以参与，或者盘前市场、盘后市场之类的。

But then there are aftermarkets that you can participate in if you are a particular type of person or pre markets, post markets, things like that.

我们在链上看到的是，流动性提供者像订单簿一样，在链上、在Aerodrome上，对英伟达的买入或卖出方进行定位，基本上是在参与对他们认为的财报结果的投机。

And what we saw onchain was that liquidity providers were positioning, like an order book would, the buy or sell side of NVIDIA onchain, on Aerodrome, basically participating in speculating on what they thought those earnings were going to be.

这为交易者在财报开始公布时进入提供了充足的流动性。

And that provided deep liquidity then for the traders to come in as they began to announce.

这些市场的走势非常接近，与你在盘后市场甚至像Hyperliquid这样的平台上看到的类似。

These markets move very, very closely and in a similar way to what you saw in after markets or even on platforms like Hyperliquid.

但这就是我说的意思，做市这件事通常只属于少数人。

But this is what I mean in the sense of the act of market making is usually something that is reserved for a select few.

而在这里，任何人都可以参与这些市场，然后获得回报。

And this is a place in which anyone could come in, participate in those markets and then gain the reward.

就像把这些链上系统的潜力与那些最老牌的传统机构进行对比。

Like to contrast the potential of these onchain systems with, again, some of the most legacy incumbents.

当然，对世界上大多数人来说，你得通过像盈透证券这样的平台才能接触到所有这些类型的资产。

And of course, for most people in the world, you would have to go through something like Interactive Brokers, right, to have access to all these types of assets.

你肯定没法参与它们周围的主动做市活动。

You certainly couldn't participate in the active market making around them.

盈透证券管理着数千亿的资金。

Interactive Brokers has hundreds of billions under management.

我觉得他们在这些活动上，在他们创造的资本上，能提取大约77%的利润率。

I think they extract something like 77% margins on the activity, on the capital that they create.

而链上系统确保所有创造的价值——如果我们能把像这些大型券商、这些机构的东西提炼成代码，并把所有价值重新分配给参与者，那就能产生更强大的网络效应。

And onchain systems ensure that all the value that's created to that, if we can distill something like these giant brokerages, these institutions into code and redistribute all the value back to the participants, it makes something much more powerful in the network effects that can come.

所以这基本上就是AMM带来的好处。

So that's just like the benefit of AMMs generally.

我很乐意深入讲讲预测性分配这部分，因为这是全新的东西。

I'm happy to get into kind of the predictive allocation portion of this because this is something entirely new.

不过，是的，从第一天起，人们就可以来提供流动性。

But yeah, I mean, from day one, people can come provide liquidity.

实际上，他们甚至可以去Banker。

In fact, they can even go to Banker.

我们和Banker有一个很棒的新合作。

We have a great new partnership with Banker.

用自然语言告诉他们的Banker机器人，他们想在这里提供流动性，让它动态管理。

Natural language tell their banker bot that they wanna provide liquidity here, have it managed for them dynamically.

我们认为，这就是这类市场的未来，而不是那些又慢又老又贵的市场。

And we think, like, this is the future of these types of markets, not these very slow, old, expensive ones.

嗯，是的，我想展开说说，因为我知道Aerodrome已经和Banker合作了，还有这个预测性分配功能。

Well, yeah, I think just expand on that because I know that Aerodrome has partnered with Banker and this predictive allocation feature.

这个想法基本上就是让人们可以押注现货市场未来的需求会在哪里。

The idea of it basically is allowing people to sort of bet on where future demand is gonna be in these spot markets.

如果他们猜对了那个交易量，并且提前提供流动性，他们就能获得额外的奖励。

And if they're right about that that volume and they provide liquidity early, they kind of get outside rewards.

从用户的角度来看，这到底是怎么运作的？

How does this actually work from a user's perspective again?

因为我对其中一些细节还是有点迷糊。

Because I I still get lost in the weeds on some of this.

所以再给我解释一遍吧。

So run that by me.

对。

Yeah.

那先简单介绍一下我们的系统背景吧。

So maybe just a bit of background on our system.

对吧？

Right?

在我们这样的交易所，也就是MetaDEX里，主要有三类利益相关者或用户群体。

So there are three primary stakeholders or user groups in an exchange like ours in the MetaDEX.

当然，首先是交易者，他们只想要最好的执行价格，无论他们想交易什么资产。

That is, of course, traders and traders just want, of course, the best execution for any asset they're looking to trade.

然后是流动性提供者，他们带来交易者所需的流动性。

Liquidity providers, they're the ones who are bringing the liquidity that traders need.

从根本上说，他们只是希望为自己承担的风险和提供的资本获得最好的回报。

And fundamentally, they are just looking for the best reward for the risk that they are taking on and providing the capital.

在我们的系统中，还有代币操作者。

And in our system, we also have the token operators.

这些人会持有Arrow代币，进行质押，然后每周参与，将Arrow奖励或资本分配到他们认为会有产出的市场中。

So these are folks who take the Arrow token, they stake it, and then they participate each week by allocating Arrow rewards or capital into markets that they think will be productive.

作为交换，他们获得协议产生的全部收入。

And in exchange, they earn 100% of the revenue that the protocol creates.

所以，预测性分配的重大创新在于，我们从自组织的市场——也就是传统的Uniswap模式，即仅仅连接交易者和流动性提供者——转向了协调的市场。

So the big innovation with predictive allocation is we move from self organizing marketplaces, and this would be the traditional Uniswap model, where you are just connecting together traders and liquidity providers, from that to coordinated marketplaces.

这就是我们今天在Aerodrome上看到的，代币运营者把资金分配到各个市场，把奖励赚回到那些现在具有预测性的市场，他们现在领先于他们认为有需求的地方。

And that's what we have on Aerodrome today, where you have the token operators who are allocating capital across these markets, earning back the rewards to markets that are now predictive, that they are now moving ahead of where they think is demand.

所以在代币化股票这个领域，我觉得这个例子非常非常有意思。

And so the example of this in the space of tokenized stocks, I think, is very, very interesting.

如果我是一个S Arrow质押者，每周我都可以把Arrow奖励分配到我预计会被使用、会有需求的市场。

If I am an S Arrow staker, each week I am able to allocate Arrow rewards to the markets that I think are going to be used, that there will be demand.

所以如果我觉得，你知道，像英伟达财报这样的重大时刻即将到来，那个市场需要深度资本化，对吧？

And so if I think, you know, that there is going to be a big moment around something like Nvidia earnings and that that market needs to be deeply capitalized, right?

它需要吸引大量流动性提供者和深度流动性，我就可以把Arrow奖励分配到那个池子。

It needs to attract a large number of liquidity providers and deep liquidity, I can allocate Arrow rewards to that pool.

现在，如果我看对了，因为我早了一步，押对了，我就能因为向那个市场分配资本而获得不对称的回报。

And now if I am right because I was early and I made the right bet there, I can earn an asymmetric reward in exchange for that capital allocation to that market.

这带来了很多惊人的好处，对吧？

And this has a number of amazing benefits, right?

现在，每个资本分配者都有动力去提前思考哪些市场会被使用。

Now the incentive is for every capital allocator to be trying to think ahead on what markets will be used.

这和预测市场不同，因为在预测市场里，你只是试图对一个事件的二元结果下注。

And this is different than a prediction market because in a prediction market, you're merely just trying to bet on kind of a binary outcome of an event.

这让你可以押注于一个人们真的会去投机的事件。

This is allowing you to bet on there being an event that people will actually speculate on.

所以你可以把资金分配到像视频这样的市场。

And so you could allocate towards that market on something like the video.

你可以在周末分配资金到市场，因为你知道传统市场会关闭，而且你认为会有很多新闻。

You could allocate towards markets over the weekend when you know traditional markets will be closed and you think that there's going to be a bunch of news.

我觉得过去几个月我们已经看到周末能发生多少新闻，市场能波动多大。

I think we've learned in the past few months how much news can happen on weekends, how much markets can move.

基本上，你获得的回报会与你的判断准确度成正比。

And basically, you get the opportunity to be rewarded proportional to how right you are.

所以这让我们的系统更高效。

So this makes our system much more efficient.

这能让我们的流动性提前于需求，并且让参与者能够获得与预测市场类似的不对称回报，而不必只押注于二元结果。

This moves our liquidity ahead of demand, and it gives, participants the ability to earn the same types of asymmetric rewards that they can on prediction markets, but without needing to bet just on the binaries.

好的。

Okay.

所以我想让我们的观众明白的是，Aerodrome 正在做的是一种首创的代币化产品。

So what I want our audience to take away from this is that what Aerodrome is doing is a the kind of a first of its kind tokenized product.

而且由于他们在这里建立的系统方式，现在有了新的方式来产生回报、阿尔法收益，你们应该更深入地了解这个模型是如何运作的，因为这里有很多很酷的事情在发生。

And as a result of the way they've set up their systems here, there are new ways of of of generating, returns, alpha rewards, and you should look into this more and understand how this model actually works because there's a lot of cool things happening here.

Alex，我想稍微转向 Arrow 的话题，因为你们已经宣布计划很长时间了，要把 Aerodrome 和 Velodrome 合并成 Arrow，并且只有一个统一的代币，就是 Arrow 代币。

Alex, I wanna pivot a little bit to Arrow here because you guys have announced plans for a long time to merge Aerodrome and Velodrome into Arrow and have just one unified token, the Arrow token.

跟我讲讲这个代币在这一切中扮演什么角色，因为每个项目、每个 DEX 都有不同的价值主张、不同的收入模式、不同的代币思考方式。

Talk to me about where that token fits into all of this because every project, every DEX has a sort of, like, a different value thesis, a different revenue model, a different, like, way they think about their token.

Arrow 代币在这一切中处于什么位置，我们需要了解些什么？

Where does the Arrow token fit into all this, and what do we need to know about that?

这是个好问题。

It's a great question.

我的意思是，从第一天起，我们就是根据一套非常清晰的第一性原理来构建的。

I mean, from day one, we have built according to a a set of, like, very clear first principles.

其中一条首要原则就是，在链上系统中，最大化的价值分配将是唯一的护城河，因为你要么把系统创造的所有价值都重新分配给产品用户，要么就会被那些这样做的人颠覆。

And one of those first principles is that maximum value distribution will be the only moat in onchain systems because you either take all the value these systems create and redistribute them through to users of the product, or you are going to become disrupted by somebody who doesn't or who does do this.

对吧？

Right?

这不仅仅是像Aerodrome这样创新的链上新产品如何颠覆主要老牌企业的问题，我认为这也是我们整个行业如何颠覆那些拥有数千名员工、榨取巨额利润的传统平台的方式，因为我们能提供他们无法提供的东西，我们能给他们的用户提供他们永远无法复制的东西。

And this isn't just how innovative new onchain products like Aerodrome have disrupted major incumbents, but I think this is how we as an industry go and disrupt traditional platforms with thousands of employees extracting massive margins, it's because we can offer them something, we can offer their users something better than they can, that they can never reproduce.

所以在我们的系统里，这非常简单。

And so in our system, it's very, very simple.

我们把平台100%的收入重新分配给那些持有代币、锁定并每周参与的人。

We redistribute 100% of the revenues of the platform back to those who take the token, lock it and participate each week.

我觉得这里有一个大家现在可能都很熟悉的类比，就是Hyperliquid。

And I think there's a very easy analog here that folks now probably understand very well, which is hyperliquid.

Hyperliquid基本上已经成为永续合约领域的霸主。

Hyperliquid has become basically the dominant force in that sort of space of perpetuals.

Hyperliquid可以说是上个周期最受宠的项目。

Hyperliquid is very much the darling of the last cycle.

他们能占据这个主导地位，对吧，靠的当然是出色的产品，但还有一个代币，它几乎代表了那个产品创造的所有价值，他们拿走了，我觉得，总价值的97%。

And they got to this dominant position, right, by focusing on, of course, an amazing product, but also a token that represented almost all of the value that that product creates in that they take, I think, 97% of the total value created.

他们回购代币，然后把那些价值重新分配给持有他们代币的用户。

They buy back the token and redistribute that value back to users of their token.

所以我们的系统，对吧，我们会把Aerodrome和Velodrome合并成一个交易所。

And so our system, right, we're going to have Aerodrome, Velodrome combined into a single exchange.

这个交易所现在要扩展到以太坊主网上流动性最深的那个市场。

That exchange is going to extend now into the deepest liquidity market in mainnet Ethereum.

它还会扩展到像Circles Arc这样的新链。

It's going to expand to new chains like Circles Arc.

我们的意图非常明确，就是要统一整个现货市场，AMM，这仍然是链上经济中产生价值比其他任何层都多的部分，把那个价值集中到一个代币里，就像Hyperliquid做的那样，希望在代币化会大大加速它的这个时刻，主导链上交易所。

And the intention is very much to unite the entire spot market, AMMs, which is still the the level of the onchain economy that produces more value than any other layer of the onchain economy, raffle that value in a single token, just like Hyperliquid did, and hopefully, dominate onchain exchange in a moment when tokenization is going to accelerate it significantly.

好的。

Okay.

你刚才提到了好多东西，我有一大堆问题想问。

You just brought up, like, a half a dozen things I have a ton of questions about.

那我们一个一个来。

So let's take these one at a time.

先从Hyperliquid说起吧。

Let's start with Hyperliquid.

我之前听你讲过这个类比。

I've heard you in the past make this analog before.

你把Aerodrome Arrow称为链上现货市场的Hyperliquid，我想听听你详细说说这个。

You've called Aerodrome Arrow, the hyperliquid of onchain spot markets, and I'd like to hear you kind of expand on that.

但这里自然就冒出一个问题，你知道，Hyperliquid每个月在永续合约上的交易量大概有1800亿美元，而且他们已经占据了所有链上衍生品交易的44%。

But the the question that comes up naturally here is, you know, Hyperliquid is doing something like a $180,000,000,000 a month in perp volume, and they've grabbed 44% of all onchain derivatives trading.

Coinbase的现货交易量同比下滑了，我记得大概31%左右。

Coinbase's year over year spot volume is down, I think, 31%, something like that.

所以看起来我们正在看到一种趋势，就是从现货市场转向永续合约平台和永续合约。

And so it seems like what we're seeing is a shift away from spot markets towards perpetuals platforms and perpetuals contracts.

你怎么看这个？

How do you think about that?

因为你知道，Aerodrome 肯定是瞄准现货市场的，但看起来市场正在转向永续合约。

Because, know, Aerodrome is definitely going for the spot markets, but it seems like the market is moving towards perpetuals.

这让你担心吗？

Does this worry you?

跟我说说你的想法吧。

Just walk me through your thoughts on this.

不担心。

No.

我觉得这些是相辅相成的东西。

I think these are symbiotic things.

所以在你描述的情况里，是不是越来越多的交易活动在链上进行？

So in in what you described, is more trading activity increasingly moving onchain?

当然。

Definitely.

对。

Right.

你可以看到，像Coinbase、OKX这些中心化交易所，越来越多地变成了链上经济的分发层。

And you see this in the way in which, you know, folks like Coinbase, folks like OKX, right, many of these centralized exchanges are increasingly turning into distribution layers for the underlying economies onchain.

所以去年Coinbase推出了比特币借贷产品，客户可以在coinbase.com上借比特币。

So Coinbase last year, of course, they launched a Bitcoin lending product where their customers can go on coinbase.com, borrow against their Bitcoin.

这背后其实就是Morpho。

That is just morpho on the back end.

他们也直接集成到像我们这样的前端去中心化交易所里。

They also integrate it directly into their front end DEXs like us.

所以如果你现在在Aerodrome上发行一个代币，二十四小时内，你就能在coinbase.com上交易，不是通过他们的中心化订单簿，而是直接集成到我们的DEX轨道上。

So if you launch a token right now on Aerodrome, within twenty four hours, you are trading on coinbase.com, not via their centralized order books, but via a direct integration into our Dex rails.

所以我觉得，我们都看到了那些图表，链上交易相对于中心化订单簿的主导地位在不断增强。

So I would say absolutely, we've all seen the charts, right, of the increasing dominance of markets trading onchain versus centralized order books.

我们也看到了中心化玩家越来越多地成为这些链上产品的分发层的趋势。

And we've seen the trend in the centralised players increasingly becoming the distribution layer for these onchain products.

所以我认为这对衍生品和现货市场两端来说都是非常令人兴奋的。

So I think that's very exciting for both ends of these markets in derivatives and spot markets.

但说到像Hyperliquid在永续合约方面和Aerodrome在现货方面的关系，我的意思是，我们从传统市场知道，这两者都必须存在。

But in terms of the relationship between, you know, something like Hyperliquid on perfs and something like Aerodrome on the spot side, I mean, we know from traditional markets that both of these things need to exist.

你得有纽约证券交易所和纳斯达克，才能有芝加哥商品交易所。

You need to have the New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ in order to have the Chicago Mercantile Exchange.

它们必须从某些东西衍生出来。

They have to derive from something.

现在非常令人兴奋的是，这些衍生品市场已经迎来了它们的链上大时刻，但它们的增长能力受到一定限制，因为当我们考虑代币化的趋势时，它们仍然需要依赖那些存在于链下、不是实时的、不是全天候的市场。

And what is very exciting right now is these derivative markets have had their big onchain moment, but they are capped a bit in their ability to grow because they still need to rely on, when we're thinking about the trend of tokenization, markets that exist off chain that are not real time, that are not 20 fourseven.

当然，我们不需要深入探讨Hyperliquid在后台是如何做到的，但这有点自我参照，而且受限。

And of course, you know, we don't need to dig into how Hyperliquid does that on the back end, but it's a bit of a self referential, you know, thing and it's capped.

所以，当传统市场关闭时，你无法在永续合约市场中对现实世界资产进行真正的链上价格发现，也无法围绕它构建可组合的乐高积木，以及借贷市场和像Bitwise推出的自动化投资组合管理器这样的创新产品。

So you can't have true onchain price discovery around the real world asset when traditional markets are closed in something like a perpetuals market, nor can you build like the composable Lego blocks around this and lending markets and new innovative products like what Bitwise has launched with the automated portfolio manager and things like that.

你无法构建同样的可组合性。

You can't build the same sort of composability.

所以我认为这两件事实际上是密切相关的，现货市场即将迎来它们的Hyperliquid时刻。

So I think these two things are actually very related and spot markets are about to have their hyperliquid moment.

我们将会看到，这些链上现货市场会逐渐成为衍生品市场对标、预言机构建以及链上价格发现所依赖的市场，而这只有通过这两者的结合才能实现。

And what we will see is these onchain spot markets will increasingly become the markets in which derivative markets benchmark against, the oracles are built against, where onchain price discovery happens, and that can only happen via the combination of these two.

但我觉得最大的区别是，Hyperliquid和我们其实非常相似。

But the big difference, I think, like, you know, Hyperliquid and us are very similar.

他们从不融资。

They never raise.

我们也从不融资。

We never raise.

对吧？

Right?

他们把代币的全部价值都分配出去。

They distribute 100% of the value of the token.

我们也做了同样的事情。

We've done the same.

我觉得他们现在做得非常好的一点是，他们把这些市场创造的整体价值打包进了一个代币里，这样即使是最传统的投资者也能看懂他们买的是什么。

They have done a very good job now, I think, of wrapping the collective value that these markets create into a single token that allows, you know, even the most traditional investor classes to look at it and kind of understand what they are buying.

今天，Aerodrome 刚刚在整体 DEX 市场中占据了大约五分之一的份额。

Today, Aerodrome's just competed for about, you know, a fifth of the overall DEX market.

我们在任何竞争的地方都能赢得主导份额，就像 Hyperliquid 那样的份额。

We win a dominant share, you know, a Hyperliquid like share anywhere we compete.

但这是我们的关键时刻，因为我们正在向 EVM 生态扩展。

But this is our big moment because we're expanding across EVM.

我们会把同样的成功模式带过去，希望我们能证明，在 Hyperliquid 上成功的模式在现货市场同样能成功。

We're gonna bring that same sort of winning formula, and then hopefully, we're able to show that the same model that's won in Hyperliquid can win in spot as well.

你知道，我们在节目里经常聊到，加密货币正在迅速成为全球支付基础设施的重要部分，而这一点在亚洲表现得最为明显。

You know, one thing we've talked about a lot on this show is that crypto is quickly becoming a huge part of the global payments infrastructure, and nowhere is that more obvious than in Asia.

但如果你真的在运营一家汇款公司或支付业务，你会知道，难点不在于转移稳定币。

But if you're actually running a remittance company or a payment business, you know that the hard part isn't moving the stablecoins.

难点在于处理本地银行合作伙伴、合规、流动性，以及向印度和东南亚等地区汇款时遇到的各种运营麻烦。

It's dealing with local banking partners, compliance, liquidity, and all of the operational headaches that come with sending money into places like India and Southeast Asia.

这就是为什么我们今天的嘉宾是 Saber。

That's why today's partner is Saber.

他们为支付公司提供基于稳定币的基础设施，帮助它们在亚洲收款和付款，而无需自己搭建所有这些复杂的系统。

They give payment companies stable coin powered infrastructure to collect and make payouts across Asia without having to build all of that complexity themselves.

他们已经在40多个国家处理了超过30亿美元的交易，所以这不仅仅是一个概念。

They've already processed more than $3,000,000,000 in transactions across 40 different countries, so this isn't just a concept.

这些人确实在做实事。

These guys are actually doing this for real.

如果你正在构建支付基础设施或计划扩展到亚洲，一定要去看看saber.money。

If you're building payment infrastructure or expanding into Asia, make sure you check out saber.money.

这真的很有帮助，Alex。

This is really helpful, Alex.

我对此感到兴奋。

I'm getting excited about this.

好的。

Okay.

在我们讨论Aerodrome如何扩展之前，我想再问一个关于竞争对手或竞争产品的问题，那就是ETF。

Before we go to how Aerodrome is expanding, I wanna ask one more question about a competitor or a competing product, which is the ETFs.

因为现货比特币和以太坊ETF的总交易量已经超过了两万亿美元，看起来这些产品真的很受欢迎。

Because spot Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs have done a cumulative volume of over $2,000,000,000,000, and it seems like these are really popular products.

它们的采用速度正在加快。

They're accelerating in their adoption.

你觉得ETF产品在某种程度上是竞争对手吗，还是你也看到了和永续合约类似的共生关系？

Do you see the ETF products as a competitor in any way, or do you also see that similar sort of symbiotic relationship that you see with perpetuals?

或者你是怎么看待这个问题的？

Or or how do you think about that?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，这要看我们考虑的时间范围。

I mean, depends on what time horizon we're thinking.

对吧？

Right?

显然，ETF现在很棒，因为它们通过传统市场让人们接触到这些非常出色的链上产品和服务。

Obviously, ETFs are incredible right now in the sense that they give access via traditional markets to these really incredible onchain products and services.

所以ETF真的很棒，对吧？

So the ETFs are amazing, right?

它们让更多人、更多资金进入这些市场。

And onboarding more folks, onboarding more capital into these markets.

而且我认为这在未来一段时间内会非常重要，对吧？

And I think that will be very important for some time, right?

因为我们提到过，你知道，Brian Armstrong说未来五年全球GDP的10%会搬到链上。

Because we talk about, you know, Brian Armstrong talking about 10% of global GDP coming onchain in the next five years.

嗯，这还需要一些时间。

Well, that's still going to take some time.

而且这也意味着还有很多GDP在链下。

And that still means that there's a lot of GDP off chain.

所以这些市场当然会在传统和链上两边继续存在一段时间。

So these markets will continue, of course, to exist both on the traditional and on chain side for some time.

但我觉得你看Bitwise的产品，对吧，这基本上让人们能像ETF一样接触这些代币化股票，但你实际上持有底层资产，这些资产可以重新平衡，而且没有基金包装。

But I think when you look at the Bitwise product, right, this is basically something that allows folks to access these tokenized equities almost similar to an ETF, but you actually do hold the underlying assets and those assets can be rebalanced and there's no sort of fund wrapper around it.

所以，如果你想象一个世界，任何传统工具——无论是交易所还是金融产品——所抽取的利润，都是链上系统介入的机会，提供更快、更便宜、更实时的服务。

So if you imagine a world in which any margin that is being extracted by a traditional vehicle, whether that's exchange, whether that's a financial product, that margin is the opportunity for onchain systems to come and deliver something that's faster, cheaper, more real time.

而且我认为我们会看到基于真实世界资产一对一代表的产品被构建出来，这些产品不需要收取同样的费用和利率。

And I think we will see products being built on top of one to one representations of real world assets that don't need to take the same types of fees and rates.

我们没有成千上万的员工需要养活、支付工资，还有各种乱七八糟的开销。

We don't have thousands of employees to feed and to pay and to all this sort of stuff.

但这些产品将越来越多地建立在链上轨道的基础上。

But these products will increasingly have a foundation in onchain rails.

对于那些上周错过的人，我和Bitwise的Ryan Rasmussen做了一个采访，谈到了Alex提到的这个产品，这些自动代币组合，他们认为这将会与ETF竞争，而且这些组合还使用了Base上的代币化股票——Base上的股票，抱歉——Alex和Aerodrome正在为这些提供支持。

For anyone who missed it last week, I did an interview with Ryan Rasmussen of Bitwise about this product that Alex is referring to, these automated token portfolios that they think is gonna compete with ETFs and that also uses tokenized stocks on Base stocks on Base, sorry, which which Alex and Aerodrome are are providing support for.

好的。

Okay.

所以这非常有帮助。

So that that's very helpful.

让我们把话题转回到Aerodrome的扩张上。

Let let's pivot this conversation back to the expansion of Aerodrome here.

Aerodrome 正在从 Base 扩展到以太坊主网，以及 Circle 的 Arc 上。

Aerodrome is expanding from base onto the Ethereum main net onto Circle's Arc.

这意味着你们将直接与这个领域里最大的几个去中心化交易所正面交锋，比如 Curve、Uniswap，而且是在他们的主场作战。

This means you're gonna be going directly head to head with some of the largest DEXs in the space, Curve, Uniswap, and you're playing on their home turf.

你们有什么计划来赢得竞争，或者说，把那些在 DEX 领域里根深蒂固的老牌机构拉下马？

What is your plan to win and sort of dethrone these sort of, like, enshrined institutions of the dex space?

你们打算怎么去挑战这些更大的老牌玩家呢？

And and how do you plan to to, you know, go about challenging these bigger incumbents?

嗯，这是个好问题。

I mean, it's a great question.

而且我觉得，从第一天起我们就在回答这个问题，在很多方面都是如此。

And it's a question I think we've been answering from day one in many ways.

可能有些人不知道我们的历史，我们一开始基本上就是 Discord 里的五个人，几乎全是匿名的，甚至彼此之间都不知道对方是谁。

For anybody who doesn't know our history, we started as basically five guys in Discord, virtually all anonymous, even to one another.

我们起步的时候，就是相信这个模式的力量，对吧？

And when we got started, we got started believing in the power of this model, right?

这个模式能最大程度地重新分配价值，还能快速吸引大量流动性。

A model that redistributes value maximally, that can quickly bootstrap all this liquidity.

我们当时觉得，这个模式的力量足以撼动这个领域里的一些巨头。

And we thought the power of the model could disrupt some of the biggest incumbents in the space.

但我们没有融资。

But we didn't raise any money.

也没有卖过任何代币。

We didn't sell any tokens.

所以这一路走来，每一步都得靠我们自己拼。

So we've had to be scrappy at every step of the journey.

而且说实话，每一步都在提醒我们，这件事有多不容易。

And I will say at every step of the journey, we were reminded at how improbable it was.

我们的第一个产品，大概四年前，也就是今年七月的时候推出的，叫Velodrome，在Optimism主网上。

So our first product, right, which we launched about four years ago as of this July, was Velodrome on optimism mainnet.

我们一开始并不是Optimism上排名第一的去中心化交易所。

And we didn't start as the number one decks on optimism.

事实上，我们甚至不是最早进入Optimism的。

In fact, we weren't even early to optimism.

Uniswap已经在那里有一段时间了。

Uniswap had been there for some time.

Curve也已经在那里有一段时间了。

Curve had been there for some time.

但正是凭借模型本身的力量，它慢慢开始获得市场份额。

But on the very power of the model itself, it slowly started to gain market share.

而且它开始从那些当时价值数十亿甚至数百亿美元的巨头手中夺取市场份额，这些巨头当然得到了这个领域一些最知名、最根深蒂固的利益方的支持。

And it started to gain market share against incumbents at that point, you know, that were billion dollar, multibillion dollar incumbents, incumbents that were backed by, of course, some of the biggest names, most entrenched interests in the space.

但Velodrome崛起，最终成为Optimism主网上最大的去中心化交易所，并将这一主导地位扩展到大约10条不同的Optimism超级链上。

But Velodrome rose and eventually became the number one DEX on Optimism mainnet and extended that dominance across about 10 different Optimism super chains.

然后，当然，随着Aerodrome的推出，我们再次展开竞争。

And then, of course, with the launch of Aerodrome, we now competed once again.

我们不是第一个，但我们再次与一些最大的巨头竞争。

We weren't first, but we competed once again against some of the biggest incumbents.

而这一次，是在现存最重要、增长最快的以太坊二层网络上。

And this time it was on the single most important, the single fastest growing Ethereum L2 in existence.

Aerodrome 也迅速占据了主导地位。

And Aerodrome as well rose to a dominant position.

所以我们的看法是，这个模式已经证明了自己。

So our opinion is this model has proven itself.

无论在哪里与最大、最根深蒂固的竞争对手正面交锋，它都能赢。

Anywhere it competes head to head with any of the biggest, most entrenched incumbents, it wins.

而且赢得相当轻松，对吧？

And it wins pretty handily, right?

比如在这个领域一些最大的竞争对手面前，市场份额能达到二比一。

Like a two to one market share against some of the largest incumbents in the space.

所以即使我们只是把这个模式扩展到以太坊这样的地方，我们认为它也会有相当大的胜算，对吧，可以复制它今天这样的增长模式。

So even if we were just taking this model and extending its total addressable market to places like Ethereum, we think it would have more than a fighting chance, right, to play the same growth model as it has today.

但我们正在把它与我们有史以来对模式最大、最雄心勃勃的升级结合起来，那就是 MetaDEX 3 和全新的时代。

But we're combining it with the biggest, most ambitious upgrade we've made to the model in its history in MetaDEX three and the all new era.

所以我们从根本上认为，如果你要总结我们的优势，就是我之前描述的那个第一性原理——最大价值分配是唯一的护城河。

So we think fundamentally, if you want to boil down what our advantage is, that first principle I described earlier, maximum value distribution is the only moat.

所以我们一直专注于确保我们的系统能够最大程度地奖励流动性提供者。

And so we stay focused on things like ensuring that our system can maximally reward liquidity providers.

因为如果我们最大程度地奖励流动性提供者，就会有更多的交易。

Because if we reward liquidity providers maximally, you'll get more trades.

如果交易更多，就会产生更多费用，你可以重新分配给VE Arrow或Staked Arrow，而那些持有Staked Arrow的人可以把更多价值引导回流动性提供者。

If you get more trades, you create more fees, you can redistribute to VE Arrow or Staked Arrow, and those Staked Arrow folks can direct more value back to the liquidity providers.

我们对此非常兴奋，因为这就像一种不同的理念，对吧？

And we're very excited about this because this is like a different philosophy, right?

我们即将面对的一些对手，他们采取的更像是一种平台经济的模式，对吧？

Some folks that we will be up against are taking more of a platform economy kind of approach, right?

这是一种非常传统的做法。

This is a very traditional approach.

就像苹果应用商店那种方式，他们说，当然，你可以来使用我们的基础设施。

It's like the Apple App Store kind of approach where they say, well, you can come use our rails, certainly.

如果你是发行方，你可以在这里部署代币。

You can deploy a token here if you're an issuer.

你是流动性提供者。

You're a liquidity provider.

你可以来这里赚钱。

You can come like earn here.

但作为交换，我们会拿走，比如说，每美元平均0.25美元，然后把这些价值重新分配给另一个利益相关者群体。

But in exchange for that, we're going to take, say, an average of $0.25 of the dollar, and we're going to redistribute that value to a different stakeholder class.

我们认为你必须最大化奖励，而且我们认为，看到这两种模式在以太坊主网这样的市场上正面竞争，将再次证明，你必须最大化奖励，否则你就会失去市场份额。

We think you have to reward maximally, and we think that seeing these two models compete head to head in markets like main net Ethereum will show that once again, you have to reward maximally or you're gonna lose share.

五个在Discord上想改变世界的人，这真是对加密货币整体情况的一个很好的描述，亚历山大。

Five dudes in a Discord trying to change the world is a good description of crypto overall, Alexander.

所以我很感谢你讲的那段历史。

So I appreciate the history lesson on that.

但现在是播客的这部分，我要试着挑起一场争论。

But this is the part of the podcast where I'm gonna try to try to start a fight.

但你刚才描述的那种对比，Aerodrome 和其他方法的对比，其实正是 Uniswap 在采用的做法。

But the description you just laid out there contrasting Aerodrome versus, you know, other approaches, that is the approach that Uniswap is taking.

他们推出了一项计划，把一部分流动性提供者的费用重新分配给代币持有者，通过代币回购的方式。

They've rolled out a plan to redis redirect some of the fees from liquidity providers back to the token holders in a token buyback program.

很多人对此非常热情，但你对此持批评态度。

A lot of people have been very enthusiastic about this, but you've been sort of critical about this.

你之前稍微提到过，但能不能再多说一点，为什么你认为 Aerodrome 的做法会胜出，帮我更清楚地理解一下这两者的区别。

You touched on this a little bit, but say a little bit more about why you think the approach Aerodrome is taking is is gonna win here and sharpen that distinction for me a little bit.

我的意思是，流动性是任何交易所的生命线，无论是传统交易所还是其他类型的。

I mean, liquidity is the lifeblood of any exchange, traditional or otherwise.

如果你是交易者，你对交易所其实没什么忠诚度。

If you are a trader, you're pretty exchange agnostic.

你知道，如果你今天在 Coinbase 上交易，你可能并不在乎你的交易是否在他们的中心化订单簿上完成。

You know, if you're on coinbase.com today, you probably don't really care if your trade is hitting their centralized order books.

你也不在乎它是否路由到 Base 上的某个交易所，或者那个交易所是 Aerodrome 还是我们的竞争对手。

You don't care if it's routing it into an exchange or base on base or whether or not that exchange is Aerodrome or one of our competitors.