Aztec Network 如何成为以太坊隐私领域的最大赢家

我觉得更有意思的隐私技术，是那种能真正支撑全球交易的技术，而这正是我们所在的领域。

I think the more interesting kind of privacy technologies are ones that can actually power the world's transactions, and that's kind of where where we sit.

每次你在以太坊上给别人转账，基本上就等于把你的银行流水、你的资产负债表、你的交易历史，还有你付过款的每一个人，全都交给对方了。

Every time you pay someone on Ethereum, you're basically handing them your bank statement, your balance sheet, your history, everyone you've ever paid.

但今天，加密领域最早做隐私的团队之一，就是来改变这一点的。

But today, one of the original privacy teams in crypto is here to change that.

ZK.money 要回归了。

ZK.money is making its comeback.

这是什么？

What is this?

它意味着什么？

What does it mean?

你需要了解哪些东西？

And what do you need to know about it?

大家好，欢迎来到 Milk Road Crypto，这档节目本来会告诉你我们钱包里有什么，但那不关你的事。

Hello, and welcome to Milk Road Crypto, the show that would tell you what's in our wallet, but that's none of your business.

我是你们的主持人，John Gillen。

I'm your host, John Gillen.

今天是9月28号星期一，不过因为新闻禁发令，这期节目我们要到9月29号星期二才播。

Today is Monday, September 28, and we are gonna be releasing this episode on Tuesday, September 29 because of a press embargo.

今天请到的嘉宾是Joe Andrews，他是Aztec Labs的联合创始人和CEO，这家公司做的就是Aztec Network，一个专注隐私的以太坊二层网络。

But today, we are joined by Joe Andrews, who is the cofounder and CEO of Aztec Labs, the company behind the Aztec Network, which is a privacy focused Ethereum layer two.

隐私现在是加密货币领域最火的话题之一。

Privacy is one of the hottest stories in crypto right now.

Joe是这方面顶尖的专家之一。

Joe is one of the leading experts on all of this.

他会告诉大家需要了解哪些东西。

He's gonna tell us what you need to know about it.

如果你们觉得这期内容不错，记得点赞和订阅。

If that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe.

把这期节目分享给会喜欢它的朋友。

Share this episode with somebody who's gonna enjoy it.

另外提醒一下，我们今天的播客是免费的，这多亏了我们优秀的合作伙伴Nexo，这是一个数字资产平台，让你可以在一个地方、一个账户里完成交易、赚取收益和借贷。

And as a reminder, our podcast today is free, and that would not be possible without our wonderful partners at Nexo, the digital asset platform that lets you trade, earn, and borrow all in one place, all in one account.

所以大家留意一下，节目后面会有更多关于他们的信息。

So keep an ear out for more information on them later in the episode.

不过现在，欢迎来到Milk Road crypto。

But for now, welcome to Milk Road crypto.

Joe Andrews，你好吗？

Joe Andrews, how are you?

嘿。

Hey.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

感谢你邀请我来。

Thanks for having me on.

非常高兴能来到这里。

Super excited to be here.

能跟你聊聊我特别兴奋，兄弟。

I'm excited to talk to you, man.

你最近在做一些大事啊。

You're doing some big things.

Joe，在聊ZK.money之前，先跟大家简单介绍一下你自己吧。

Joe, before we get into ZK.money, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Aztec Labs是什么？

What is Aztec Labs?

Aztec Network又是什么？大家应该了解些什么？

What is the Aztec Network, and and what should people know about these things?

我觉得可以从大概七八年前说起吧。

I think we can start, oh, maybe seven, eight years ago now.

我在加密领域的经历，可以说是一段很长的旅程了。

So we my my journey in in crypto, has has been a long one.

我们大概是从2017、2018年开始的，那时候还挺天真的，看到这种新技术，想用它来颠覆现代的东西，把现代银行的那些做法搬到链上，还有其他的事情。

We kind of started in 2017, 2018 kind of, like, green eyed and, looking at this kind of new technology to, disrupt kind of modern, like, on chain kind of, like, website, bring bring modern banking practices on chain and and and other things.

我们在2017、2018年的时候开始研究怎么把企业金融放到区块链上，但很快我们就发现，当时的区块链对大多数现实世界的应用来说几乎没什么用，因为它们缺少一个核心要素，那就是隐私。

And we started looking in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen about how we could put, like, corporate finance onto blockchains, and we realized pretty quickly that blockchains as they as they stood back then were pretty useless for most real world interactions because they they lack a core tenant, which is privacy.

如果你在现实世界里进行交易，你会有一种我们在西方世界习以为常的隐私保护。

If you kind of, you know, transact in the real world today, you just have this level of privacy that we take for granted in the Western world.

比如说，你付钱给我的时候，我看不到你的银行账户，也看不到你买日用品花了多少钱。这些基本的原则在过去的十多年里在区块链上根本不存在。

You know, if I can't see your bank account when you pay me, I can't see, you know, how much you spend on your groceries, There's just these basic principles that didn't exist on blockchains for the last kind of ten plus years.

当我们开始考虑把企业金融放到链上时，这个问题就更严重了。

When we were starting to think about putting in corporate finance on chain, the problem kind of compounds.

企业在这方面的需求比我们想象的要高得多。

Like, businesses have this to an even higher degree than kind of, you know, we expect.

大多数企业都依赖信息不对称，无论是他们的供应商、采购价格、投资组合，还是交易策略。

Like, most businesses rely on some information asymmetry, whether it's, you know, their suppliers, how much they buy a product for, their portfolios, what trading.

整个企业金融行业都建立在信息不对称的基础上，而这种不对称通常是通过中间人来实现的。

Like, the whole kind of corporate finance industry relies on information asymmetry, and usually, you you get get that for a middleman.

如果要在公共区块链上实现这一点，就必须有所改变。所以当我们开始尝试把企业金融工具放到以太坊上时，我们总是遇到同样的问题——一切都是公开的，这根本行不通。于是，我当时的联合创始人ZK开始着手解决这个问题。

And for this to kind of work on a public blockchain, something had to change, and so when we started trying to put these these corporate finance tools on Ethereum, we kept running into the same problem of it's all public, this is not gonna work, and so ZK, my cofounder at the time, started trying to solve that problem.

在过去十年里，以太坊和公共区块链上的隐私技术已经发展了很多。

And the technology behind privacy on Ethereum and public blockchains in general has expanded a lot in the last decade.

比如，九年前，你几乎无法加密一个数字并把它放到链上，而Aztec正是八年多研究的结晶，主要由Aztec的联合创始人Zach在零知识证明方面做出贡献，现在你不仅能加密数字，还能加密整个程序。

Like, nine years ago, you could barely kind of encrypt a number and put it on chain, and what Aztec is is kind of the culmination of eight plus years of research, mostly by kind of Zach, who is kind of the cofounder of Aztec as well, into zero knowledge proofs that enable you to now not just encrypt numbers but encrypt entire programs.

所以我们一直在构建这套技术套件，最终在去年年底推出了一个完全去中心化的以太坊二层网络，今年早些时候网络以alpha形式上线，这就是Aztec网络。

And so we've been building this kind of technology suite which culminated in the launch of a fully decentralized Layer two on Ethereum late last year, and the network kind of went live in alpha form earlier this year, and that is the Aztec Network.

它是一个二层网络，允许你在公共以太坊上部署私有应用。

It's a layer two that allows you to deploy private applications on top of public Ethereum.

所以你可以有私有状态、公共状态，你可以加密东西。

So you can have private state, public state, you can encrypt things.

我们七八年前想要的所有东西现在都实现了，你可以开始把现实世界的金融引入这些公共轨道，这就是Aztec网络。

Kind of all of the things we wanted kind of seven, eight years ago are possible, and you can start to onboard kind of real world finance onto these public rails, and that's the Aztec Network.

Aztec Labs是我经营的公司，过去八年多一直是这项技术的核心开发者，网络实际上是由一个瑞士基金会启动和管理的，但现在公司有了新的使命，就是在网络上构建东西来展示可能性。

So Aztec Labs, is the company I run, been the core developer of that technology for the last kind of eight plus years, the network is actually kind of launched and stewarded by a Swiss foundation, but the company now has taken on a new life, which is building things on top of the network to show what's possible.

我们花了这么多时间把网络变成现实，现在它已经在这里了。

Like, we've we've spent all this time bringing the network into existence, and and now it's here.

我们想开始让大家看到，嘿。

We want to start showing people, hey.

你知道吗，我们不必再在纯粹的公共区块链上做事了。

You know, we don't have to do things on on pure public blockchains anymore.

有更好的方式，这就是Aztec Labs。

There's a there's a much better way, and that's what Aztec Labs is.

所以，我想暂停一下，快速提醒大家，加密货币的牛市又回来了。

So Just wanna pause for a quick second to remind you all that the crypto bull market is back.

我一直在把资金投入到我认为在这个牛市中会表现很好的各种币上。

I have been deploying capital into all coins that I think are gonna do very well, this bull market.

其中一些从我入场到现在已经涨了两倍多。

Some of them are already up over two x from where I entered.

所以，如果你想看看我的投资组合里有什么，我的关注列表上有什么，并且能在Discord上随时向我提问，那就现在就加入Milk Road Pro吧。

So if you wanna see what's in my portfolio, what's on my watch list, and have access to me in Discord to ask questions twenty four hours a day, join Milk Road Pro now.

链接在描述里。

The link is in the description.

只要一美元。

It's just a dollar.

到时候见。

I'll see you there.

Joe，非常感谢你介绍这些关于公司和隐私方面的背景和历史。

Joe, thank you so much for some of that context and history around the company and on privacy.

我们能不能稍微往回说一点？

Could we just, like, back up a little bit?

你用现金付钱给别人时，是不会留下公开记录的，但在加密货币里，这却是默认情况。

When you pay someone in cash, like, that is not, like, a public record being created, but that is sort of the default in crypto.

为什么我们会走到这一步，让公开记录成了默认？这种默认会带来哪些安全问题，或者说有哪些弊端？而你们想通过 Aztec Network 来解决这些问题吗？

Why did we get to the place where that is the default, and what are some of, like, the security problems this poses or just, like, you know, drawbacks to that being the default that you're trying to solve with the Aztec Network?

这其实是个很好的问题。

This is a great question, actually.

所以说，这有点……

So it it kind of...

你得稍微了解一下区块链是怎么运作的，才能明白为什么所有东西都是公开的，以及为什么现金不是默认的方式。

You have to look a little bit into how blockchains work to understand, I guess, why everything is public and why kinda cash is not the the default.

我最喜欢的一个类比是这样的：你想想区块链是什么，它基本上就是一群节点，大家都在努力对一个账本达成共识，比如谁有多少余额。举个例子，如果我有一百美元，想给你转十美元，为了让十个不同的节点——假设就是十个朋友——达成一致，比如Joe到底有没有付给John十美元？

My favorite kind of analogy here is if you think about what a blockchain is, it is basically a group of nodes that are all trying to come to an agreement on a ledger, like who, who has what balance, and if we do an example here where, you know, if I've got $100 and I want to send $10 to you, in order for the 10 different nodes, let's say they just are 10 friends, and which one will agree, like, did Joe actually pay John $10?

那就得有一个公开的请求。

Well, there needs to be a public request.

所以为了让所有人都能看到发生了什么，你可以想象他们必须公开地看到我的钱包，里面有一百美元。

So in order for everyone to kind of, like, see what's happened, you can you can imagine kind of they have to visibly view my wallet, which has a $100 in it.

他们得看到我拿出十美元，然后他们得把它交给……

They have to see me take out $10, and then they have to give it to...

他们得看到我把钱交给你。

They have to see me give it to you.

如果十个人……

And if 10 people kind of...

在区块链的情况下，如果一百个人里有五十一个人说，对，我们看到了，那这笔交易就会被记录在账本上。

Well, in a blockchain case, if 51 out of a 100 people say say, yes, they saw that, then the the the kind of transaction's recorded on on the ledger.

所以，在区块链上，你需要共识，还需要独立的第三方来验证你的交易，而这些第三方可能在世界任何地方。

And so the fact that you need consensus and you need independent third parties who could be anywhere in the world to validate your transaction on a blockchain.

这就是为什么默认是公开的，你不能只是两个人之间私下交易。

That's why this default public status exists, and you can't just have a transaction between two parties that's private.

所以大多数区块链都内置了这一点：为了节点能就发生了什么达成一致，它们必须是公开的。

So it's kind of baked into most blockchains that they have to be public in order for nodes to agree on what happened.

所以这是相当根本的，然后你可能会接着问，那Aztec是怎么运作的，这些隐私保护技术又是怎么运作的？

So it's fairly fundamental, and, you know, you may kind of then follow-up and say, like, well, how does Aztec work and how do these kind of privacy preserving technologies work?

答案就是这种叫零知识证明的技术。我们不是做一个简单的交易，比如100减10等于90，而是进行一种更复杂的数学证明，你仍然可以公开广播这个证明，所有节点都能验证它，但不会透露任何关于实际发生了什么的信息。

The answer is this technology called zero knowledge proofs, and instead of us, you know, doing a basic transaction, you know, one hundred minuteus 10 is 90, the actual computation is a much more kind of expressive mathematical proof, and you can still broadcast that proof publicly and all the nodes can check it, but you don't reveal any information about what actually happened.

所以那个技术就是零知识证明，Aztec就是围绕它构建的，让节点能够验证任意陈述，而不需要透露这些陈述的背景。

And so that technology is zero knowledge proofs, and Aztec is kind of built around that to enable nodes to check arbitrary statements without revealing the context of those statements.

我最喜欢的类比有点像互联网上的HTTPS。

My favorite analogy is a bit like HTTPS on the Internet.

就像在HTTPS之前，就是浏览器角落里那个绿色小锁，你不能进行信用卡支付，因为你的信息是以明文形式在互联网上传输的。

Like before HTTPS, like, the little kind of green padlock in in the corner of your browser, you couldn't have card payments because, you know, your your your information was sent in plain text across the Internet.

这里的情况有点类似，有了HTTPS，或者在这个场景下是零知识证明之后，你就可以开始在区块链上或者互联网上发送加密信息了，这就能实现更多的功能。

It's a bit it's a bit of a similar kind of, like, analogy here where after HTTPS or, in this case, zero knowledge proofs, you can now start to send encrypted information on blockchains or on the Internet, which enables a lot more functionality.

所以，是的，为了解锁这些功能，背后需要做大量的工作，但正是这种共识的前提，意味着在区块链上，信息默认必须是公开的。

So, yeah, a lot of work had to go into unlocking that, but it's this premise of consensus that means that, you know, things have to be default public in blockchains.

好的。

Okay.

那我们来聊聊这个吧，因为零知识证明，也就是ZK技术，已经被人们讨论很久了。

Well, let's talk about this because zero knowledge or ZK technology has been something that people talked about for a long time.

你们基于这个技术推出了一款产品，叫ZK。

You guys have launched a product built on this called ZK.

Money，今天刚刚发布。

Money, which you're just launching today.

所以这是个大新闻。

So this is the big news that's coming out.

不过，先给我们简单讲讲ZK是什么。

But, explain to us a little bit about what ZK.

这个钱能拿来干什么，以及这个产品是怎么实现你一直想带来的那些隐私功能的。

Money is, what someone can do with it, and sort of, like, how this product instantiates some of these privacy features that you've been trying to bring to Yeah.

ZK Money 首先是一个支付产品，它能让你在以太坊上给任何人付款，只要用一个方便识别的标签就行。

So ZK Money is a payments product out the gate, so it enables you to kind of pay anyone on Ethereum to kind of a human friendly tag.

你不用再给一串乱七八糟的十六进制地址打钱，如果你有个标签叫 John，我直接付给你就行，有点像 Venmo 那种体验，而且完全是非托管的，也完全私密。

So instead of paying some random hexadecimal string, if you have the tag at John, I can just pay you, a bit like a Venmo style experience, and it's fully non custodial and it's fully private.

所以最初的功能就是支付，还有条件支付和支付链接，接下来几周我们会陆续加上储蓄、兑换、现实世界的转账，还有银行卡支付这些功能。

So the initial features are payments and also conditional payments to payment links, and we'll be kind of expanding the features over the coming kind of weeks with savings, swaps, transfers in the real world, and card payments and those things.

你可以把它理解成一个私密的数字银行，但它是建立在公共区块链之上的。

So you can kind of think of it a bit like a a private neobank but built on public blockchain rails.

其他做这件事的人，基本上用的都是公共链，所以他们就没有隐私这一块。

And most other people who are doing this, obviously, they're just using public rails, so, they don't get the privacy part.

这就是最大的区别所在。

So that's that's the big differentiator.

好的。

Okay.

那你跟我说说，这个产品能让人们做什么？

So talk to me about what the the the product allows people to do.

这个……

The...

比如说，最开始就是从支付入手，但你觉得未来能在这个基础上拓展出别的功能吗？

Like, the the place to start with is just with payments, but are there things you think you could evolve this for in the future?

还有，随着ZK Money逐渐被采用，你觉得它会往哪个方向发展？

And, like, where do you kinda see this going as as zk.

就是它开始被大家接受之后？

Money starts to be adopted?

我觉得首先值得提的一点是，区块链在可用性和用户体验方面已经进步了很多，但如果你还是连接以太坊的话，大多数情况下你可能还是通过MetaMask或者Rabbit这些钱包来连的，很多好用的功能其实并没有真正被用上。

I think the first part that's just worth flagging is, you know, blockchains have come on a long way in terms of usability and and UX, but if you, you know, if you still connect to Ethereum, for the most part, you're probably still connecting via MetaMask or Rabbit or one of these wallets, and a lot of these usability features are not actually used.

所以一开始，我们就想为基本支付打造一种普通人和Web2用户也能享受的用户体验，所以在ZK Money上没有助记词，你进了应用之后也不用付gas费，一切都像你用Venmo那种产品一样，符合你的预期。

And so out of the gate, we wanted to build a kind of UX for basic payments that normies and Web two people could enjoy, so there's no seed phrases on ZK Money, you don't have to pay gas once you're in the app, and everything just kind of works like you'd expect if you're using kind of a a Venmo style product.

所以我们花了很多时间去优化用户体验，让你只需要用手指点一下或者用Face ID，支付就会从你的钱包里发出去，私密地发送到目的地，你也不用担心要记住那些十六进制的地址。

So we spend a lot of time trying to optimize the user experience so that you can just, you know, touch with your finger or with face ID, and a payment will kind of leave leave your wallet and be sent privately to its destination, and you don't need to kind of worry about remembering hexadecimal addresses.

你只需要用标签和联系人就行，就跟你在……

You just have tags and contacts like you'd expect in kind of...

在Web2世界里预期的一样。

In in the Web two world.

所以这就是我们一开始花了很多时间去做的东西。

So that's kind of out the gate where we spent a lot of initial time.

等这个基础打好了，我们打算扩展支持储蓄金库、兑换不同资产，还有那些你希望能用这笔钱在现实世界里做的事情。

Once we've built that foundation, we're planning on expanding to support, you know, savings vaults, swaps to different assets, and things kind of like that you'd expect to be able to use that money in the real world.

能用加密货币私下给朋友转账确实很棒，但如果你想把它当作托管账户的替代品，那你还得能在现实世界里给别人付款。

It's great being able to pay your friends privately in crypto, but, you know, if you want to be able to use this as a kind of replacement for a custodial account, you need to also be able to pay people in the real world.

所以加上银行转账和银行卡这些功能，大概就是今年晚些时候路线图上的东西。

So adding kind of bank transfers and cards, those sorts of things that are kind of on the road map for for later in the year.

这完全是一个面向普通消费者的产品。

This is all a retail product.

面向机构我们也有一套对应的功能可以聊，我觉得那也会很让人兴奋，但我们先从零售端做起，因为目前这个市场更容易切入、迭代和测试。

There's a equivalent set of features we can talk about with institutions as well, which I think will be exciting, but we're starting with retail because it's it's an easier kind of market to go after and iterate and test for now.

好的。

Okay.

所以目前的想法是，先面向个人用户做新型银行服务，而且后面还有更多东西。

So the idea is neo banking services with retail for now, and and there's there's more there.

我想稍微问一下历史方面的情况。

I wanna ask a little bit about the history.

这已经不是你们第一次推出 ZK.money 了。

This is not the first time you guys have have have launched ZK.money.

我记得上次你们做的时候，大概有七万五千个钱包，交易量达到了一亿美元，但后来在2023年关掉了。

You had, I think, around 75,000 wallets and a $100,000,000 in volume the last time you did this, but that was shut down, I believe, in 2023.

为什么现在又重新推出？

Why the relaunch now?

跟我说说从那次经历中学到了什么，还有……

And and talk to me about the the the lessons learned from that and, like...

就给我讲讲这段历史吧。

Just just give me some of the history on this.

这个问题问得好。

It's a great question.

我们之前有一个旧版本的产品，是建立在更早期的Aztec上的。

So we we had a previous version of this product on a much earlier version of of Aztec.

那个版本更加中心化，能做的事情也非常有限。

That version was more centralized, and it was very limited on on what you could do.

它有点像……

It was kind of...

你可以把它想象成Zcash和以太坊之间的区别。

You could kinda think about it as, like, the difference between maybe a Zcash and and Ethereum.

所以最早的ZK money，基本上只能做支付。

So the original kind of, like, ZK money, like, all you could do was payments.

如果我们想加新功能，就得升级整个网络，然后改……

If we wanted to add new functionality, we'd actually have to upgrade the network and and and and change, you know, under...

改交易底层的核心原语，才能把兑换或者其他功能加到系统里。

The underlying core primitive of a transaction to add things like swaps or other things to to the system.

我们在运营那个产品的时候，意识到了两件事。

We realized two things when we were running that product.

第一，想要迭代它、加新功能实在太难了，因为这需要人们懂底层密码学，还得理解写零知识证明的那些复杂细节。

One, that the ability to kind of iterate it and add features was way too difficult because it required, you know, people to be a low level cryptographer and understand the intricacies of writing zero knowledge proofs.

就是，它真的……

Like, it it was...

你知道，我们团队能做，但特别容易出错，普通开发者根本没法轻松搞定。

You know, our team could do it, but it was very error prone and and not something that you could do easily as like a normal developer.

第二，如果我们想扩展到更多用户，就必须去中心化。

And secondly, we needed to decentralize this if we were going to scale it to like a lot more users.

所以我们最终关掉了那个版本的产品，专注于打造完全去中心化的Aztec，这给我们带来了两个好处。

So we ended up shutting down that version of the product to focus on building the fully decentralized version of Aztec, and that gave us two things.

第一，现在网络自己就能运行了。

One, the network now just runs on its own.

全球大概有四千五到五千个节点在运行Aztec网络，所以我们不用再操心了。

There's about four and a half, 5,000 nodes all around the world that are just running the Aztec Network, so we don't have to do that anymore.

这样我们就能专心做产品了。

We can we can focus on building products.

第二，这个网络本身是可编程的，它有一门叫 Noir 的编程语言，也就是说任何人都能在网络上写程序来添加功能。

And two, the network itself is programmable and has a a programming language called Noir, which means that anyone can write programs on the network that add features.

所以交易类型不再只是支付这一种，你想构建一种全新的复杂交易，比如兑换加上借贷再加上各种东西，我们简直……

So instead of just having payments be the only type of transaction, you want to build a new complex type of transaction that's a swap plus lending plus all sorts of things we're freaking...

我有很多东西可以聊，待会儿可以讲讲我特别期待的那些交易类型。

I've got lots of things we can talk about in a minute about the kinds of transactions I'm excited about.

你只要写个程序，不用部署到网络上，就能直接用了。

You can just write a program and not deploy it to the network, and you're good to go.

所以这就像是 Zcash 那种只有单一支付通道的网络，和以太坊那种可编程性更强的网络之间的区别。我们花了大概两三年时间去做这个版本的 Aztec，现在又回来利用

And so it's kind of the difference between, like, having it running on a single payment route like a Zcash and a more programmable network like Ethereum, but that's where we ended up going away for two, three years building this version of Aztec, and now it's back to kind of take advantage of

所有这些功能，真的特别让人兴奋。

all of those those features, which is super exciting.

我很喜欢这个故事和这个发展轨迹，也很欣赏你们取得的进展。

I love that story and that trajectory and the progress you made there.

就是……

Just...

我知道，为了走到今天这一步，你付出了很多年的努力，所以恭喜你。

I I know there's just many, many years of work that went into getting to this point, so congratulations on that.

你提到了Zcash。

You mentioned Zcash.

我希望你能帮我区分一下，Aztec网络的功能和Zcash有什么不同，你能用它做什么，因为你知道，Zcash最大的卖点就是隐私货币和能够私下交易。

I would love for you to just differentiate for me the the functionality and, you know, how Aztec Network works, what you can do with it versus Zcash because, you know, Zcash's big pitch is, like, private money and and being able to transact privately.

显然，Aztec网络能做的远不止这些，但跟我聊聊这个，以及人们应该了解的它们之间的区别。

Obviously, there's a lot more that to Aztec Network than just that, but talk to me a little bit about that and what people should know about the differences between these.

我觉得最好的类比就是以太坊和比特币之间的关系。

I think the best the best analogy is is kind of the Ethereum to to Bitcoin kind of analogy.

所以我认为Zcash有两层含义。

So I think Zcash is two things.

它既是一种资产，也是一种私下发送这种资产的方式。

It's an asset, and it's a way to send the asset privately.

所以你可以从两方面获得价值，一方面就是持有这个资产，因为你认为它是一种价值储存手段，或者你觉得这是一个你想持有和投资的资产，另一方面你也可以通过把它私下转给别人来获得价值。

And so you can get utility in both ways, one from just holding the asset because you think it's a store of value or you think it's an asset you want to hold and invest in, and then you can also get utility out of it by sending it to someone else privately.

但你的交易是在Zcash上进行的，也就是说，如果你是一个接受美元的企业，或者你需要用欧元、英镑或其他类型的资产，那这可能就不太实用了……

But your transaction is in Zcash, which means that, you know, it's maybe not that useful if you're a business that accepts dollars or you need to do euros or pounds or other kind of asset...

其他资产。

Other assets.

所以以太坊可以说是区块链的可编程版本。

And so Ethereum is kind of, you know, the programmable version of a blockchain.

在这个模型里，它不像比特币那样只有一种资产，比特币和Zcash。

Like, in in this model, it's not like Bitcoin where there's one asset, Bitcoin and Zcash.

以太坊和Aztec就是我在这里想做的类比。

Ethereum and Aztec is kind of the analogy I'm I'm trying to draw here.

Aztec可以说是一个通用层，有点像以太坊，但我们在里面内置了隐私功能。

Aztec is kind of this general purpose layer, a bit like Ethereum, but we have privacy built into it.

所以当你在Aztec上部署一个应用时，你可以拥有额外的功能，就是隐私，能在这个应用中实现隐私保护。

So when you deploy an application on Aztec, you can have extra features that are privacy, enabling privacy in in in that application.

主要的区别在于，Zcash 这种区块链只有一个程序、一种资产。

The main difference would be Zcash is kind of a blockchain that has one program and one asset.

Aztec 是一个网络，你可以部署任意数量的程序、任意数量的资产，而且只要你想，它们都可以是加密的。

Aztec is a is a network that enables you to deploy any number of programs in any number of assets and have them all be encrypted if if if you want to.

所以在这个例子里，ZK Money 其实就是我们部署到 Aztec 上的一组程序，它支持任意数量的资产。

So ZK Money in this example is effectively one set of programs we've deployed to Aztec that supports any number of assets.

上线的时候，我们会支持 DAI、USDT、USDC 和以太坊这几种资产。

At launch, we'll support DAI, USDT, USDC, and Ethereum as kind of some assets.

但随着我们不断扩展功能，以后还可以接入其他代币。

But as we kind of expand the feature set, you know, we can have other tokens coming in.

可以接入现实世界资产。

We can have RWAs.

也可以接入有收益的资产。

We can have kind of yield bearing assets.

各种各样的东西都能进入这个系统，因为它是一个可编程的层，不像 Zcash 那样只有一种资产。

All sorts of things can go in the system because it's a programmable layer, unlike Zcash, which is kind of one one asset.

打个比方，我……

One analogy, and I...

我想听听……

I'd like to hear...

你可能不同意这个说法，但我听过一个比喻，就像固定刀片和瑞士军刀的区别。

You know, you may disagree with this, but one analogy I've heard is, like, it's kind of like a fixed blade versus a Swiss army knife.

虽然都是刀，但瑞士军刀能做的事情多得多。

There's just, like, a lot more applications and and things you can do even though they are both knives.

对，确实有很多不同。

But, yeah, there's there's a lot.

我觉得比特币和以太坊的关系，就像Zcash和Aztec Network的关系，这个比喻挺贴切的。

And I think that that Bitcoin to Ethereum, Zcash to Aztec Network, that analogy is helpful there.

我们可能稍后会深入讨论Zcash的问题，但我现在想回到以太坊，因为我觉得有个问题很有意思，就是你为什么决定在以太坊上构建Aztec Network作为隐私二层，而不是直接推出自己的独立一层。

I I think we'll get deeper into this Zcash question at some point, but I I do wanna come back to Ethereum because I I think it's an interesting question of why you decided to build Aztec Network on Ethereum as a privacy layer two as opposed to just spinning out your own layer one.

因为就像你说的，你在全球有几千个验证者。

Because like you said, you've got several thousand validators around the globe.

你完全可以自己搞一条一层链。

You could have just done your own layer one.

为什么要在以太坊上做这个？当时是怎么做这个决定的？

Why build this on Ethereum, and and what was the decision making process on that?

这个问题我们这些年反反复复讨论过很多次，归根结底就是两点。

We've we've been back and forth on this question a lot over the years, and it and it comes down to two things.

第一，以太坊就像是一个全球共识的记录。

One is, you know, Ethereum is kind of like a record of global consensus.

对于可编程区块链来说，它所能提供的共识是最强的。所以如果你想让交易的资产……

What happened is the strongest kind of you can really get for a programmable blockchain, and so if you want the assets that you're transacting to be...

就是说，每当一笔交易被确认的时候，背后得有以太坊那种级别的共识和背书，那你就必须得在以太坊上。

You know, have the kind of consensus and and the backing of Ethereum behind them whenever a transaction says confirmed, you must be on Ethereum.

如果你想跟它竞争，你就得让你的网络上有足够多的活动……

And if you want to compete with that, you know, you have to kind of get enough activity on your network in...

光是在质押方面，还有质押集合里要有足够多的价值，这样你才能跟以太坊的共识资本相抗衡——大家是这么叫的。

Just in staking and enough value in in the kind of the staking set such that you can kind of compete with Ethereum's consensus capital is like a word that people use for it.

所以我觉得，要从零开始重建这套东西，真的非常难。

And so I think recreating that from scratch is a is a very difficult thing to do.

当然，很多人都想自己做一条一层链，因为一旦做成了，回报是巨大的。但实际上，以太坊背后有非常强大的网络效应，想要打破它真的很难。

Obviously, lots of people like to do that and be an l one because it's a it's a very big prize if you can achieve it, but in in practice, it's, you know, there's a massive network effect behind Ethereum, and it's quite hard to upset that.

而且我们本来就在做一件非常非常难的事，就是把可编程的隐私带到区块链上。如果还要同时去做这件事，又想吸引比以太坊更多的资金，那就等于你得同时解决两个非常非常难的问题。

And given we were, you know, already doing something very, very difficult with, you know, bringing programmable privacy to blockchain, Doing that and trying to kind of attract more capital than than Ethereum is, you know, you're having to solve very, very...

两个极其棘手的问题。

Two very, very hard problems.

所以这是第一个比较实际的回答。

So that's the first kind of just practical answer.

我觉得从更偏哲学的角度来说，你还得看经济活动。

I think the more kind of, like, philosophical answer is is that you also need to look at economic activity.

我有时候因为说这个话被人批评，但隐私其实没什么用，除非有经济活动在支撑。

I sometimes get berated for for saying this, but privacy is actually pretty useless unless there's economic activity.

如果如果有一个……

If if if there's a...

这就像那个著名的比喻，如果一棵树在森林里倒了，没人看见的话，有谁会在乎呢？

It's like the the famous analogy of if a tree falls in a forest, does anyone care if if you can't see it?

你想想，如果你在一个区块链上，只有一个人、一个节点，而你就是唯一的用户，那它是公开的还是私密的，还有意义吗？

You know, if you're if you're on a blockchain where there's just one person, one node, and you're the only user, does it matter that it's public or or private?

答案很可能是，没有意义。

And the answer is probably it doesn't matter.

就是说，隐私其实并不是你待在那里的原因。

Like, privacy is not really the reason that you're there.

只有当经济活动非常活跃，而且你作为企业或者用户的体验因为缺乏隐私而变差的时候，你才会真正在意隐私。

You care about privacy when there's a lot of economic activity and your experience, either as a business or as a user, is made worse by a lack of privacy.

所以我的理解是，隐私是赋能产品的，而不是产品本身。正因为以太坊有最多的经济活动，所以在以太坊上面搭建隐私层是最合理的，因为这样我们离那些经济活动最近。

So it's kind of privacy enables products rather than privacy is the product is is the way I think about it, and because Ethereum has the most economic activity, it makes the most sense to build a privacy layer on top of Ethereum because we're the closest we can be to that economic activity.

这意味着，把经济活动引入Aztec再回到以太坊，是非常容易的。

It means it's very easy to bring that economic activity into Aztec and back to Ethereum.

所以如果我们想做一个兑换，我们其实可以直接用Uniswap来兑换，同时还能获得一些隐私。

So if we want to do a swap, we can actually just swap with Uniswap, and we can get a bit of privacy doing that.

比如说我们想搞一个储蓄金库，就可以直接对接Aave或者Morpho，接入那些已经在跑的各种活动，然后在上面加一点隐私功能。

If we want to, you know, have, a savings vault, we can kind of connect to Aave or Morpho and and connect to all of the activity that's already happening and add bits of privacy to that.

所以如果你作为二层网络跟以太坊紧密相连的话，做这些事情就方便多了，不像作为一条独立的一层链，还得来回跨链桥接。

So it's a lot easier to kind of do that if if you're really connected to Ethereum as an l two versus having to kind of bridge in and bridge out as an alternative l one.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

这个背景信息真的很有帮助。

That's really helpful context on there.

我还想听听你对这个的看法。

I wanna get your thoughts on this as well.

以太坊自己的团队也在开发隐私解决方案。

Ethereum's own teams are working on developing privacy solutions as well.

以太坊基金会有一个项目叫……

The Ethereum foundation has a project called...

这个词我可能会念错，请见谅，不过我觉得应该是叫Kohaku或者Kohaku Kohaku，它想在以太坊一层上直接为钱包提供隐私功能。

I may mispronounce this, so forgive me, but I think it's Kohaku or Kohaku Kohaku, which is trying to deliver privacy directly on the l one for for Ethereum wallets.

你能跟我聊聊你是怎么看待这个的吗？

Can you talk to me about how you think about this?

这是竞争对手吗？

Is this a competitor?

还是Aztec网络的合作伙伴？

Is this a a partner to to the Aztec Network?

或者说，你怎么看以太坊生态里其他的隐私方案跟你正在做的事情之间的关系？

Or just, like, how do you see other privacy solutions in the Ethereum ecosystem relative to to what you're building?

在我看来，关注隐私的人越多……

I think the more people focusing on privacy, in my view, is it...

就越好。

The better.

我觉得如果有那种只做基础隐私支付的项目，你可以把它们看作是ZK Money的竞争对手。

I think if if there are kind of initiatives to just do basic private payments, you can think of them as competitive with ZK Money.

我觉得我们现在的用户体验和操作流程要好得多。

I I think we would have a a far better UX and kind of just user flows today.

不过我也非常看好以太坊的隐私路线图，因为我们在Aztec里不得不自己实现很多东西，如果这些功能是以太坊原生支持的，Aztec的性能和易用性都会大幅提升。

I'm also, though, very bullish on the Ethereum privacy road map because we've had to build a lot of things into Aztec that if they were built into Ethereum would make Aztec much more performant and easier to use.

所以我觉得这两条路线图之间有很多协同效应，随着以太坊不断扩展、这些功能逐步落地，我们既能在Aztec层面受益，也能在基于Aztec构建的应用中受益。

So I think there's a lot of, kind of synergies between the two roadmaps, and as Ethereum scales and as these features, we we can take advantage of them both at the Aztec level and also in the applications we build on top of Aztec.

我觉得最终它们长期来看是不是竞争关系，这……

I think, ultimately, whether they're competitive long term is kind of...

取决于以太坊能不能保持可信中立。

Is gonna be judged by whether Ethereum stays credibly neutral.

你明白吧？

You know?

他们目前通常就是把一些功能直接做进协议里，让应用开发更方便，而Kohaku……

They, at the moment, usually just build things into the protocol that make applications easier, and Kahaku is...

你知道，它是从以太坊基金会分拆出来的。

You know, it's spin out from the the EF.

它实际上并没有内置到以太坊里。

It's not actually built into Ethereum.

所以，对，他们是否会继续坚持那种方法，还是说……

And so, yeah, whether whether they stay kind of in that kind of methodology or not is is kind of...

时间会给出答案，但他们并没有把 Uniswap 写进协议里，而它可是最成功的交换平台。

Time will tell, but they haven't enshrined Uniswap into the protocol, and it's, like, the most successful swap.

所以对我来说，如果他们要把完整的隐私交易直接写进协议，感觉步子迈得有点太大了，通常他们更倾向于把这些功能推到应用层去。

So to me, it would feel a step too far for them to kind of enshrine full private transactions into the protocol, and usually they will pump that to the application layer.

而且，对，我觉得在应用层我们肯定能赢，所以这方面我不太担心。

And, yeah, the application layer, I think we we will win hands down, so I'm not too worried there.

好的。

Okay.

另外，最后我想说的是，隐私方面也有……

Also, the the last part I'd say is that privacy is also...

它存在网络效应。

There's a network effect around it.

所以以太坊上能有的隐私应用越多，跟它们相关的隐私集合也就越多。

So the more you can have different privacy apps on Ethereum, you have privacy sets associated with them.

你想，如果一个隐私集合里有一千个用户，另一个有一万个，如果这两个能连起来，那你就可以……

And so, you know, if there was a thousand users in one privacy and privacy set and 10,000 in another, if those can be connected together, then you kind of...

你的用户就能共享一个大得多的隐私集合。

Your users can share a much larger privacy set.

所以总的来说，我觉得越多人在以太坊上关注隐私，最终用户的隐私就会越好，这对所有人来说都是好事。

So net net, I think the more people are focusing on privacy on Ethereum, the the better the ultimate privacy will be for end users, which is just a positive thing for everyone.

你知道，加密货币有个挺奇怪的地方，就是你在里面待得越久，账户好像就越多。

You know, one of the weird things about crypto is that the longer you're in it, the more accounts you seem to end up with.

在一个地方买，在另一个地方交易，又在别的地方赚收益。

You buy in one place, trade somewhere else, earn yield somewhere else.

而且如果你真的需要资金，最后可能不得不卖掉一些你本来想留着的东西。

And if you actually need capital, you end up having to sell something that you probably wanted to keep.

这就是为什么我们Milk Road要和Nexo合作。

That's why we at Milk Road are partnering with Nexo.

他们把所有东西都放在一个账户里。

These guys keep the whole thing under one account.

你可以买卖加密货币，用你持有的资产赚利息，甚至还能拿你的资金做抵押借款，不用卖掉它。

You can buy, trade crypto, earn interest on what you already hold, and even borrow against your capital without having to sell it.

全都在一个地方，全都在一个账户里，全都在Nexo上。

All in one spot, all in one account, all on Nexo.

如果你需要流动性，但又不想放弃你的仓位，或者你已经持有加密货币，想用它做更多的事，我觉得Nexo值得你花时间了解一下。

If you need liquidity but you don't wanna give up your position or you're already holding crypto and you wanna be able to do more with it, I think Nexo is worth your time.

我们很喜欢跟他们合作。

We love working with them.

我觉得你也会喜欢的。

I think you will too.

跟他们说，是Milk Road介绍你来的。

Tell them Milk Road sent you.

好的。

Okay.

跟你聊得越久，我就越看好这个项目。

This is making me more and more bullish the longer I keep talking to you.

我想再多聊一些这些功能，不只是Aztec和Zcash的区别，而是不同用户群体的功能集合。

I wanna talk a little bit more about some of these functionality, not just the differences between Aztec and Zcash, but, like, the functionality set for for different users.

比如，隐私有不同的使用场景，这……

Like, there's different use cases for privacy for privacy privacy, which...

不管你怎么发音，对散户、企业、机构和个人来说，隐私的需求都是不一样的。

Whichever side of the pond you're on when you're pronouncing it, but it's different for retail, for businesses, for, institutions, individuals.

跟我聊聊你是怎么看待这个的。

Talk to me a little bit about how you see that.

然后，你知道，AI代理也可能参与进来。

And then, you know, AI agents could come into this conversation too.

跟我聊聊不同用户群体之间的差异，以及你如何通过正在构建的产品来服务他们。

Just talk to me a little bit about some of the differences in terms of the user groups and how you're trying to think about servicing them with the products you're building.

好的。

Yes.

这个问题问得特别好。

It's a it's a great question.

我觉得，AI的崛起其实是个很好的切入点。

And I think, I mean, the rise of AI is actually a great place to start.

我们基本上每天都能看到，某个地方又发生了数据泄露，某人的KYC信息被曝光在网上了。

I think we see kind of, like, every day, like, you know, there's a data breach somewhere, and someone's KYC information is is leaked on the Internet.

而且我觉得，至少数据泄露越来越多的这个趋势，AI要负很大责任。

And you know, AI is kind of, I would say, largely responsible for at least the increase in data breaches.

因为现在，想要……

Like, it's much easier to kind of...

对那些有恶意的人来说，入侵数据变得容易多了。

For adversarial people to try and hack data.

真正让人害怕的是，在AI时代，当你有AI代理在链上替你交易，同时数据泄露又越来越多，你在链上留下的公开痕迹就越来越多，你的个人数据被泄露的频率也大大增加。

And the thing that's quite scary is, you know, in an AI age, when you have agents transacting for you on chain and you have more data breaches, you're creating a lot more public fingerprints of who you are on chain, and your personal data is leaked a lot more frequently.

这两件事加在一起，就意味着，别人非常非常容易就能查出来我是谁。

And so these two things combined together mean it's very, very easy to, you know, figure out that I'm Joe.

这是我的以太坊地址，这是我拥有的资金数额，还有，你知道，像欧洲、法国以及其他地区出现的所谓租金税之类的事情，人们因为有加密货币而被勒索，或者因为有加密货币而被绑架，这种情况变得越来越普遍……

This is my Ethereum address, and this is how much money I have, and, you know, renter tax and and these sorts of things that we see in Europe and in France and and other areas where people are held ransom because they have crypto, or they're kidnapped, because they have crypto just become more and more, prevail...

越来越常见。

Prevalent.

而我们真正关心去构建的东西，是能够防止这类事情发生的。

And the things that we care about building are things that, you know, protect against that.

所以要防止这类事情，你必须做两件事。

So in order to protect against that, you have to do two things.

第一，让交易变得私密，但同时你还得在交易内部保留条件逻辑。

One, you know, make make transactions private, but you also have to, inside the transaction, still have conditional logic.

不能只是简单的付款。

You can't just have basic payments.

你可能想做一些类似这样的事情：我可以给你发一笔付款，但只有当你持有写有你名字的护照时，你才能领取。

You may want to do something like, I can send you a payment, but you can only claim it if you have a passport that has your name on it.

所以在那种情况下，你可能会获得合规方面的好处，同时也能得到额外的安全保障，而且因为有隐私，你可以在付款中附加逻辑，能做很多事情。

So in in that world, you know, you may get compliance benefits, you also get extra security from it, and there's lots of things you can do in this way where you can attach logic into a payment because you have privacy.

我们在ZK Money里有一个例子，就是能直接通过对方的邮箱地址给他付款。

One example we have in in ZK Money of of this feature is being able to pay someone to their email address.

所以如果我有你的邮箱地址，我就能给你发一个付款链接。

So if I have your email address, I can send a payment link to you.

我可以把它放在邮件里，而你必须证明你拥有那个邮箱，才能领取这笔钱。

I can put it in an email, and you can only claim it if you prove you have ownership of that email.

所以这就……

And so it...

这些功能基本上能让你打造更好的用户体验，但前提是你得有一种隐私保护。

These features kind of enable you to basically build better user experiences, but you can only do it because you have a form of privacy.

反过来看，也许有个很直观的理解方式：如果你把付款和护照或者邮箱绑定，你绝对不会把它放到以太坊上，因为你会想，等等。

The flip side, and and maybe a good way to just visualize this, is if you bind a payment to passport or an email, you would never put that on Ethereum because you'd you'd be like, wait.

我要把自己的护照信息放到公开的区块链上，或者把邮箱地址放到公开的区块链上？但现在你就能做这些事了。

I'm putting my passport information on a public blockchain, or I'm putting my email address on a public public blockchain, but you can now do these sorts of things.

所以……

And so...

这听起来有点抽象，但这就是我们想要打造的那类功能，我们觉得它们真的能帮上忙，让这些产品真正融入我们的日常生活。

And that's a little bit meta, but those are the sorts of features that we're trying to kind of build, and we feel like they can really help, you know, these products actually enter our daily lives.

这属于那种关于我是谁、我在交易时是谁的那一面。

That's on the kind of like who I am like, who I am when I'm transacting side.

还有一些基础的……

There's basic...

更基础的东西，比如兑换、储蓄，就是能让你用自己想要的资产去交易，那些你可能想私下进行的操作。但我觉得，这些可编程的隐私支付才是我更兴奋的，因为以前没有隐私的话，这些事根本做不到。

More basic things around kind of, you know, swaps, savings, just being able to transact in the assets that you want, that you may want to do privately, But these kind of programmable private payments are the ones that I think I'm I'm I'm more excited by because they're they're things that they weren't possible before without privacy.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

所以这里面涉及的东西挺多的。

So there's a lot there.

我想聊聊这件事从机构角度来看的问题。

I wanna talk about institutional angle on this.

长期以来，机构一直说他们没法上链，因为把所有头寸都公开，对他们来说就像是一种安全风险，还有很多其他问题。

Institutions for a long time have said they can't come on chain because having all of their positions be public is like a a, you know, a security risk and a lot of other problems for them.

你觉得经过这么多年的努力，现在是不是终于到了一个……

Do you think that now after years of of working on this, you've finally gotten to a place where, you know, there...

就是你现在已经有了能真正满足这些机构需求的方案，能把资金带上链，还是说你觉得还有一些路线图上的东西得先落地，这件事才能真正大规模发生？

That you now have solutions that are able to, you know, meet the needs of those institutions, bring that capital on chain, or are there still things that you think are on the road map that need to get shipped before that really starts to happen in size?

我觉得基本的积木已经有了，机构想上链需要的东西，现在都能搭出来。

I I think we have the basic building blocks where anything an institution kind of needs to go on chain can now be built.

但这跟机构真的上链还是两回事。

That's still not the same as an institution actually coming on chain.

我觉得可能还差几样东西。

I think a few things are probably still missing.

一个是围绕这些技术怎么运作，合规和监管的明确性还不够。

One is sufficient compliance and regulatory clarity around how these technologies kind of work.

我们正在往那个方向走。

We're getting there.

美国的监管环境每天都在变，但这确实是关键所在。我觉得我们现在有能力把很多机构带上链，但如果没有这种官方盖章的‘正确做法’背书，事情会难做很多。

It's changing every day in The US at the moment, but that is a big part of this, and so I think we have the ability to bring a lot of institutions on chain, but without that kind of rubber stamp of this is the right way to do things, it it is a lot harder.

我觉得最近一周，海瑟·皮尔斯（Hester Peirce）在SEC任职期间的一些举措开始显现出非常积极的信号。她至少尝试为许多支持区块链、甚至支持隐私保护的方向打下基础。

I think we're starting to see very positive things out out of kind of the the last week of Hester Piss' SEC kind of, like, reign where she's kind of at least tried to lay the foundation for a lot of pro blockchain, even pro privacy angles.

最让人兴奋的一点是关于KYC（了解你的客户）。她最近公开表示，KYC本质上就像……

The the most exciting one is kind of around KYC for us and and her recently coming out and saying that KYC is basically a wave...

它就像一个巨大的诱饵陷阱，不该再存在了。现在有了零知识证明等技术，有更好的方式来做这件事。

It's like a giant honeypot that shouldn't exist anymore, and there's better ways to do it with zero knowledge proofs.

我们其实有一个独立的产品叫 ZK Passport，专门做这件事，然后把它和 ZK Money 结合起来，就能实现这些流程。

We actually have a a separate product called ZK Passport that does exactly this, which we we combine with ZK Money to to enable these flows.

所以我觉得我们正在……

So I think we're we're get...

确实快到了，但最后一步还是需要监管方面的明确指引。

Definitely getting there, but the the last piece is still regulatory clarity.

我认为现在在公有链上能做的事情，已经足够让机构进场了。

I think what you what you can now do on a public blockchain, is is definitely sufficient, to bring an institutional chain.

他们就差最后推一把了。

They just need the last of a push.

ZK Passport 是 Aztec Network 推出的另一个产品，我现在不想讲得太深，因为，你知道，这个……

ZK passport is another product that Aztec Network has launched, and I don't wanna dive too deep into this right now because, you know, this...

但有件事我们的听众应该记住，就是去多了解一下 Aztec Network，看看他们提供了什么，以及他们是怎么用零知识技术来解决这些问题的。

But there's something that our audience should take away from this is go learn more about Aztec Network and what they're offering and how they're solving these things with zero technology or zero knowledge technology.

因为就像你说的，Hester Pierce 也在谈这个。

Because just like you said, Hester Pierce is talking about this.

现在有更好的办法来做这件事，了解这些很重要。

There are better ways to do this now, and learning about that is important.

我想利用最后几分钟聊一个话题，就是这件事的财务层面。

I wanna talk about something with the last few minutes we have here, the the financial side of this.

Zcash 已经从……

Zcash has gone from...

我记得大概是六月份的时候，差不多在四千四百五十美元左右。

I think it was around, like, $4,450 or so in June.

现在已经超过1500美元了。

Now it's over $1,500.

这是今年市场上我们看到的最大的涨幅之一。

It's one of the biggest pumps in the market that we've seen this year.

这个隐私代币的市值现在大概有2.526万亿美元。

Something like a $2,526,000,000,000 dollar market cap now in this privacy token.

你觉得市场会继续奖励那些有隐私解决方案的项目吗？

Do you think that the market is gonna continue to reward projects that have privacy solutions here?

而且Zcash在横盘了那么久之后，突然有资金涌入，你怎么看？

And just what do you make of this sudden move of capital into Zcash after so long of it just languishing sideways.

就是，你对整个情况怎么看？

Like, what's your read of this whole situation here?

他们在市场上做得非常非常好。

They've done the market very, very well.

我觉得有几个原因。

I I think that a few things.