Ondo 在8个月内达到10亿美元市值——接下来的发展更加宏大

总有一天，所有资产都会上链。

At some point, all assets will be onchain.

我觉得这个市场未来会超过一百万亿，因为随着所有市场都上链，所有资产也都会上链。

I think this market is over a $100,000,000,000,000 in time as as all markets move onchain, all assets move onchain.

Ondo 的总锁仓量刚刚突破了四十亿美元。

Ondo just crossed $4,000,000,000 in total value locked.

它把贝莱德的投资组合策略搬到了链上，华尔街正在大举进军加密货币领域。

It is putting BlackRock portfolio strategies onchain, and Wall Street is coming to crypto in a big way.

这意味着什么？

What does this mean?

代币化实际上是什么样子的？

What does tokenization actually look like?

投资者需要了解哪些相关信息？

And what do investors need to know about all this?

大家好，欢迎来到 Milk Road Crypto 节目，我们相信，在市场小幅回调、大家恐慌的时候，正是看涨的最佳时机。

Hello, and welcome to Milk Road Crypto, the show that knows that the best time to be bullish is when the market is panicking during a tiny pullback.

我是你的主持人，约翰·吉伦。

I'm your host, John Gillen.

今天是10月15日，星期四。

Today is Thursday, October 15.

我们会在明天，也就是16号，发布这一集。

We will be releasing this episode tomorrow on the sixteenth.

今天，我们邀请到了Ondo Finance的董事总经理兼产品组合负责人，约翰·霍夫曼。

And today, we are joined by managing director and head of product portfolios at Ondo Finance, John Hoffman.

在加入Ondo之前，他曾在景顺负责美洲的ETF业务，并在灰度领导分销工作。

Before Ondo, he ran the ETF business in The Americas at Invesco and led distribution at Grayscale.

约翰是华尔街和加密货币领域的专家。

John is an expert on all things Wall Street and crypto.

在这一集中，他会分享很多智慧，告诉我们Ondo的最新动态。

He's gonna share a lot of wisdom with us in this episode, and he's gonna tell us all what's going on at Ondo.

如果你觉得不错，记得点赞和订阅。

If that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe.

把这一集分享给会喜欢它的朋友吧。

Share this episode with somebody who's gonna enjoy it.

另外提醒一下，我们今天的播客是免费的，这要感谢我们的优秀合作伙伴Nexo，这个数字资产平台让你在一个账户里就能完成交易、赚取收益和借款。

And as a reminder, our podcast today is free and that would not be possible without our wonderful partners at Nexo, the digital asset platform that lets you trade, earn, and borrow all in one place, all from one account.

所以请继续关注，稍后节目里会有更多关于他们的信息。

So keep an ear out for more information on them later in the show.

那么现在，欢迎来到Milk Road Crypto，约翰·霍夫曼。

But for now, welcome to Milk Road Crypto, John Hoffman.

先生，你好吗？

Sir, how are you?

谢谢你今天邀请我。

Thanks for having me on today.

我一直是这个节目的忠实听众，所以今天能和你一起在这里，真的很荣幸。

Longtime listener of the program, so it's an honor to to be here with you today.

嗯，我是你的超级粉丝。

Well, I'm a big fan

你的工作我也很欣赏。

of your work too.

我关注Ondo已经很久了。

I've been following Ondo for a long time.

约翰，我觉得我们对话最好的开场就是你先向听众简单介绍一下自己，讲讲你的故事。

John, I thought a great place to start the conversation would be with you just introducing yourself a little bit to the audience and telling us about your story.

就像我说的，你在Invesco工作了将近二十年，负责ETF业务，还在Grayscale待过。

As I said, you spent almost twenty years at Invesco in ETFs, and you were at Grayscale as well.

现在你从传统金融跳到了数字资产领域。

And now you have jumped over from TradFi to to digital assets.

跟我聊聊这个转变吧，感觉怎么样？

Talk to me a little bit about that transition and what that's been like for

我职业生涯是从管理咨询开始的。

So I, you know, started my career in management consulting.

其实早在2000年代初，我就开始用个人账户买ETF了，当时就觉得这是一种非常棒的投资回报技术。

I was actually buying ETFs in my personal account in the early 2000s and thought it was a tremendous technology for, you know, delivering investment returns.

我在2000年代初加入了ETF行业，那时候它还是一个相对小众、不太为人知的领域。

And I joined the ETF industry in the early two thousands when it was a relatively small, you know, unknown category.

我在ETF领域工作了将近二十年，担任过各种职务，亲眼看着它从一个小众行业变成了现在的主流技术。

Spent nearly twenty years, you know, working in various capacities on the ETF space, watching it go from, you know, kind of a a cottage industry to now a mainstream technology.

说到加密货币，约翰，也许可以简单介绍一下Ondo，我现在在那里负责产品组合业务。我觉得，简单来说，Ondo专注于构建基础设施，以支持开放、全天候的全球资本市场，真正目的是提升每个人的投资体验。

You know, as it relates to crypto and and maybe John just setting up, Ondo, where where I currently, lead the the product portfolios business, you know, I think that, by way of introduction, you know, Ondo is is really focused on, you know, building the infrastructure to power open, always on global capital markets and it's really about improving the investment experience for everyone.

所以我在几年前转向了加密货币领域。

And so, you know, I made the transition to crypto a couple of years ago.

想想加密货币，这项技术已经发展了十五年，很多真正创新的技术都需要时间才能最终实现最初设定的承诺。我认为现在加密货币正处于一个转折点，最初设定的承诺开始逐渐显现。

You know, when you think about crypto, we're fifteen years into this technology and a lot of, you know, truly innovative technologies, they take time to to ultimately deliver the promise that they set out on on the front end, and I think that we're at a point now in crypto where the promise, that was originally set out upon is is now starting to manifest.

而Ondo在代币化领域正是引领这一潮流的先锋。

And, you know, Ondo is is really leading that charge on the tokenization front.

明白了。

Gotcha.

我想聊聊Ondo在这方面具体在做些什么。

I I wanna talk about what Ondo is doing on that front.

但到目前为止，Ondo最让我印象深刻的是它的增长速度。

But I I think that the thing that stood out to me about Ondo so far has been the growth.

我觉得稳定币大概花了三年时间才达到十亿美元。

It took stablecoins, I think, about three years to hit a billion dollars.

而Ondo的代币化股票在不到八个月的时间里就做到了。

Ondo hit that with their tokenized stocks in just under eight eight months.

而且看起来，无论是从SEC和CFTC的监管背景，还是从华尔街来看，都在大力推动这件事。

And it seems like there's, like, a big push towards this across the regulatory backdrop from the SEC and the CFTC, but also across Wall Street.

你怎么看华尔街向代币化迈进的速度？

What do you make of the speed at which Wall Street is moving towards tokenization?

跟我详细聊聊这个吧。

And and talk to me a little bit about that.

你说得对，稳定币花了三年时间才达到十亿美元的TVL。

So to your point, I mean, stablecoins, I think it was to, you know, three years to reach a billion in TVL.

而代币化国债在大概十八个月里就做到了。

Tokenized treasuries did that in about eighteen months.

Ondo股票，也就是那个把美国股票和ETF代币化的平台，在八个月内就达到了这个里程碑。

Ondo stocks, which is, the platform that that tokenizes US equities and and ETFs reached that milestone in eight months.

所以当你放眼全局，想想这些市场的发展，稳定币现在是一个三千亿美元的市场。

And so when you zoom out and actually, you know, think about where those markets went, stablecoins are now, you know, a $300,000,000,000 market.

我觉得每年有将近九万亿美元的交易量在稳定币轨道上流动，所以这当然非常重要。

I think there's nearly 9,000,000,000,000 annually of transaction volume, you know, moving on stablecoin rails and so certainly, very significant.

至于代币化股票被采纳的速度，我觉得有两个因素。

In terms of the speed of adoption, you know, as it relates to tokenized equities, I think there's kind of two factors there.

一个是我们在谈论一种全球性的无国界技术，对吧？

One is, you know, we're talking about a global borderless technology, right?

任何有互联网连接和钱包的人都能访问它，所以当你考虑潜在市场时，实际上是八十亿人，这和传统金融的构建方式不同，传统金融很大程度上由本地市场和本地监管驱动。

Anyone with an internet connection and a wallet, you know, can access this and so when you think of the addressable market, you know, really it's, you know, 8,000,000,000 people, which is different than how traditional finance has, you know, been built, which is very much driven by, you know, local markets, local regulation.

这是一种全球性的无国界技术，更像互联网，而不是传统的单个图书馆市场，如果你愿意这么说的话。

This is a global borderless technology more akin to the internet versus kind of like the traditional individual library market if you will.

第二个因素我觉得主要是人口结构，对吧？

The second element I think is really around demographics, right?

你看看全球的人口结构，你知道，就在美国，未来七到十年里，将有85万亿美元从X世代、Y世代、Z世代之间转移，而那些继承这些资本的世代，他们已经开始继承这些资本了，他们更懂数字技术。

You you look at the demographics globally and you know, just here in The US, $85,000,000,000,000 is going to transition from Gen X, Gen Y, Gen Z over the next seven to ten years and those generations that are inheriting that capital, they've already started to inherit that capital are more digitally native.

你知道，我的孩子们，玩iPad、遥控器或者任何东西，都比我快多了。

You know, know my kids, can move around an iPad and a, you know, a remote control or anything a lot faster than I can.

很多人从小就在这种技术环境中长大，技术就像他们的摇篮一样，所以他们信任技术，理解技术，我觉得这真的会加速采用，轻松超越传统的模拟技术。

You know, a lot of these folks grew up with this technology, attached to their high chair, and so they trust the technology, they understand the technology, and I think that's really going to speed up the adoption here, you know, easily, you know, traditional analog technologies.

好的。

Alright.

约翰，就像我们说的，你在ETF领域花了很多时间。

John, like we said, you spent a lot of your career in the ETF space.

我听你说过，代币化看起来很像ETF的早期阶段。

I've heard you say that tokenization looks a lot like the early days of ETFs.

我想你能不能详细说说，因为现在ETF业务……

I wonder if you could elaborate on that because ETF businesses now...

我觉得，大概有16万亿美元的资产在ETF里，或者差不多这个数。

I think it's, $16,000,000,000,000 of assets are in ETFs or something like that.

但是，是什么让你觉得这跟代币化有可比性呢？你觉得这对代币化的发展意味着什么？

But what what makes you think this is the analog to tokenization that's appropriate here, and and what do you think that that means for the growth of tokenization?

你看。

Look.

对我来说，这确实有可比性，因为我觉得我们都是被...

It's it's an analog for me because, you know, I think we're all formed...

被自己的视角塑造的。

Shaped by by our perspectives.

我的视角主要是在ETF行业。

My perspective was very much in the ETF industry.

我觉得这个也可以推广到更广的范围。

I think you could translate that more broadly as well.

你看，ETF现在已经是主流技术了，对吧？

Look, ETFs are a mainstream technology today, right?

在美国，我们已经连续十六个月每月净流入一千亿美元了。

In The US, we've had sixteen consecutive months of $100,000,000,000 of net inflows.

在美国乃至全球，这都是一种被广泛接受的投资方式。

You know, it's a commonly accepted way to invest in The US and globally quite frankly.

我刚进入这个市场的时候，情况可不是这样的。

When I started in that market, that was not the case, right?

在早期，有一篇文章甚至把ETF称为大规模杀伤性武器，还预言被动投资会导致美国资本主义的灭亡。显然，当时有人出于其他动机想攻击ETF这种结构。

Back in the early days, there was actually an article written that referred to ETFs as weapons of mass destruction and it pontificated that, you know, passive investing was gonna be the demise of capitalism in America and, you know, clearly there was other motivations there to attack the ETF as a structure.

早期我们听到很多反对的声音，比如有人说我现在的技术已经很好用了，不需要新东西。我记得连杰克·博格尔，就是共同基金的先驱，一开始也很排斥ETF。我还记得我们做固定收益ETF的时候，有人批评说，怎么能把那种通过电话预约、场外交易的东西搬到交易所，让它全天电子化交易呢？

You know, we heard a lot, in the early days, know, my current technology works great, I don't need something new, you know, I think even Jack Bogle was very adverse to ETFs in the early days, you know, somebody that pioneered, you know, the mutual fund and I remember when we were doing fixed income ETFs, there was criticism, you know, how could you take something that trades OTC by appointment over the phone and bring it on exchange and allow it to trade, you know, electronically, throughout market hours.

所以我们以前办活动的时候，如果观众注意力不集中，我们有时会说一句话来提醒他们：如果你不喜欢改变，那你就会讨厌被淘汰。

And so I remember we used to do events and one of the things we would say sometimes when the audience wasn't paying attention to kind of wake them up was if you don't like change, you will hate irrelevance.

然后大家就开始认真听了。

And then people started kind of listening.

我觉得现在代币化的情况也类似。

I think it's a similar situation here with tokenization.

现在还是早期阶段。

It's the early days.

我听到很多人说，这是不是个为了找问题而提出的解决方案？

I hear a lot of people say, you know, is this a solution in search of a problem?

市场效率极高，所以并不是所有东西在ETF里都行得通。

You know, the markets are tremendously efficient and so not everything worked in the ETF.

我们尝试了很多东西。

We tried a lot of things.

我记得主动非透明策略是个大方向，但从来没真正成功过。

I remember active non transparent, you know, was a big strategy there that never really worked.

在代币化市场，我们还处于非常早期的阶段。

In the tokenization market, we're in the very early stages.

这里有巨大的技术潜力，最终会重塑市场，但仍然有很多怀疑，这让我想起了ETF的早期。

There's tremendous technology here that ultimately, you know, will reshape markets, but there's still a lot of skepticism and so it reminds me of those early days of ETFs.

这里需要做很多教育，我觉得，看，在十五、二十年后，希望更快，可能更快，我们都会醒来，这将成为主流技术，然后我们会谈论下一个创新，人们觉得不需要，但最终会改变他们投资方式的东西。

There's a lot of education that has to happen here and I think that, look, in in fifteen, twenty years, hopefully faster than that, probably faster than that, we're all gonna wake up and this is gonna be a mainstream technology and, you know, we'll be talking about the next innovation, that people feel, you know, isn't needed, that will ultimately, you know, transform how they how they invest.

比特币这次回调吓坏了不少人，但我不是其中之一。

This pullback on Bitcoin is scaring a lot of people, and I am not one of them.

所以，如果你想看看我为什么不卖、我的关注列表上有什么，以及我打算什么时候向这些市场投入更多资金，你可以今天就加入Milk Road PRO。

So if you wanna see what I'm not selling and why, what's on my watch list, and when I'm gonna be deploying more capital into these markets, you can join Milk Road PRO today.

只要一美元。

It's just a dollar.

链接在描述里。

The link is in the description.

我白天黑夜都在Discord上回答问题。

I answer questions day and night in Discord.

我们到时候见。

I'll see you there.

嗯，约翰，我很欣赏你的幽默感，但也很欣赏你的见解。

Well, John, I appreciate the sense of humor, but also the perspective.

教育是我们Milk Road这里非常关注的一个重点。

Education is a big part of what we focus on here at Milk Road.

我想了解一下Ondo推出的一些产品，因为你们今年一直都很忙。

I wanna get an education on some of the products that Ondo has been launching because you guys have been very busy this year.

上个月，你们推出了一个叫Ondo智能投资组合的产品。

Last month, you launched something called Ondo Intelligent Portfolios.

虽然它听起来很智能，但我觉得很多人还是不太清楚这个产品到底是什么。

As intelligent as they may be, I think a lot of people are still kind of confused as to what this product is.

用大白话来说，这是什么？

What is this in plain English?

它是怎么运作的？

How does this work?

给我们讲讲

Tell us

这个吧。

about this.

好的，John，让我先花点时间介绍一下Ondo，因为Ondo智能投资组合正是基于我们如何走到这一步的。

So John, maybe if I could spend a moment just setting up Ondo because it really builds on how we got to Ondo Intelligent Portfolios.

我之前提到过，我们专注于构建基础设施，来支持这些开放、全天候的全球资本市场，我们是从代币化国债开始的。

And I mentioned that, you know, we're focused on building the infrastructure to power these open, always on global capital markets and we started by tokenizing treasuries.

我们一开始是从流动性最强的资产入手的。

We took the most liquid assets, you know, to to to start with.

目前我们在代币化国债领域排名第一，有两项能力，TBL超过25亿美元。

We're number one in in tokenized treasuries today with two capabilities, over $2,500,000,000 of TBL.

接下来，我们推出了Ondo股票，专注于代币化股票和ETF，正如我们之前提到的，这个业务迅速增长，突破了10亿美元。

Next, we we, built Ondo stocks, which is focused on tokenizing stocks and ETFs and that, as we talked about, ramped up very quickly to over $1,000,000,000.

我们在那里有超过450个上市产品。

We've got over four fifty, listings there.

自推出以来，我们已经完成了超过300亿美元的名义交易量，在代币化股票和ETF领域排名第一。

We've done over $30,000,000,000 of notional volume since that launched and we're number one in tokenized stocks and ETFs.

然后我们推出了Ondo Perks，这是一个永续合约交易所，使用的是RWA永续合约，对吧。

We then launched Ondo Perks, which is a perpetual futures exchange that is using RWA, perps, right.

这个的酷之处在于，你可以把Ondo股票作为抵押品用在永续合约交易所上。

So what's cool about this is you can actually take the Ondo stocks and use those as collateral on the perps exchange.

所以这又是一个模块化的构建，每个元素都建立在下一个之上。

So it again, it's kind of a modular build, element is building on the next one.

最后我们最近刚推出的，就是你刚才提到的Ondo智能投资组合。

The last thing which we very recently launched, which you just touched upon is Ondo Intelligent Portfolios.

所以我们得先从把资产放到链上开始。

So we had to start by getting the assets onchain.

现在我们做Ondo智能投资组合，其实就是把这些资产组合成专业管理的投资策略，通过一个链上代币直接提供给全球投资者，这就是Ondo智能投资组合的发布。

Now what we're doing with Ondo Intelligent Portfolios, it's really about assembling these assets into, you know, professionally curated investment strategies that are delivered to investors globally in a single onchain, you know, token and so that was, you know, the launch of Ondo Intelligent Portfolios.

这在很多方面都算是一个新品类。

It's a new category in a lot of ways.

我们一开始推出了七个能力，也就是七个不同的投资组合。

We started with seven capabilities there, seven different portfolios.

但说到底，核心就是通过一个投资组合代币，提供一流的资产配置和证券选择。

But again, it's really about delivering a single portfolio token powered by best in class, you know, asset allocation and and security selection.

而且我觉得，John，这次发布在很多方面，又让我想到ETF，这可以说是代币化市场的SPY时刻。

And I think in a lot of ways, John, this launch is is, you know, again, my ETF parallels here, this is the spy moment for, the tokenization market.

我们这里不是把某个基金代币化。

You know, we're not tokenizing a fund here.

我们正在开创一个全新的类别：专业的投资组合构建、资产配置、证券选择、自动再平衡，以及数字化的回报模式，全球任何人都可以即时访问。

We're opening a completely new category, you know, professional portfolio construction, asset allocation, security selection, automatic rebalancing, you know, digital return patterns that are instantly accessible to anyone in the world.

我得加个说明，目前仅限美国以外的地区，只要有互联网连接和钱包就行。

I have to do caveat that outside The United States today, that has an Internet connection and and a wallet.

这个说明很重要。

That's an important caveat.

约翰，我想正如你提到的，人们已经有办法获得股票和ETF的配置和访问权了。

John, I I think, you know, as you alluded to, people already have ways to get allocations and and access to to stocks, to ETFs.

那这个产品对我来说有什么不同？

Differentiate this product from me.

它和市场上已有的产品相比，区别在哪里？

What makes it different from what's already on the market?

它为什么更有吸引力？

What makes it more attractive?

跟我聊聊这个吧。

Talk to me about that.

这个问题问得很好。

So it's it's a great question.

我觉得有几个因素值得考虑。

I think there's a number of factors to think about.

跟传统金融现有的产品相比，我来对比一下。

Know, vis a vis, I'll do this kind of vis a vis what's available, you know, in traditional finance today.

首先是全天候交易。

There's an element of 24 by seven.

这些代币可以全年无休，每天24小时、每周7天、365天交易。

So these tokens, you know, can trade 24 by seven, three sixty five.

所以这里有一个……

So there's a...

就是时间上的灵活性。

There's an element of of, timing.

以及可及性。

Access.

我刚才简单提了一下。

I touched upon that briefly.

几乎任何有网络连接和钱包的人都能接触到。

You know, nearly anybody with an Internet connection and a wallet has access.

我觉得控制权是一个非常有趣的因素。

Control, I think, is a really interesting factor.

因素。

Factor.

我用“控制”这个词，但我的意思是你可以自己保管这个资产。

I use the word control, but what I mean by that is, you know, you could self custody this asset.

你也可以点对点地发送它。

You could also send it peer to peer.

所以约翰，我可以直接把特斯拉的股票发给你，不需要中间人，这开启了各种新的模式，涉及这种控制权。

So John, I could send you, you know, shares of Tesla directly without an intermediary, which opens up all sorts of new paradigms with this element of control.

但我也可以因为这个资产由我控制，把它带到DeFi，也许借出这个资产来解锁额外的用途。

But I could also take this asset because I control it and bring it to DeFi and perhaps lend that asset to unlock additional utility.

而且，现在传统金融里肯定也有借贷市场，对吧？

And again, there's certainly lending markets today in TradFi, right?

我可以借出我的ETF份额或者股票，但最终是我的券商来促成这件事，决定借给谁、交易对手是谁，以及相关的利率。

I can lend my ETF shares or I can lend my stock, but ultimately my broker dealer is the one that, you know, facilitates that and determines the, who they're gonna lend to and the counterparties and the rates associated with that.

但有了这种控制权，我可以自己选择借给谁。

This control element here, I can choose who I'm lending to.

我可以选择承担什么样的风险。

I can choose what type of risk I wanna take on.

我可以控制贷款的条款，我觉得这在一定程度上就是精准和控制，我是这么理解这个要素的。

I can control the terms of that loan, which I think is is about, you know, to some degree, you know, precision and control is kind of how I would think about that element.

这里真正的要素，而且现在还处于非常早期的阶段，就是自动化这部分，对吧？

The real, you know, element here which again is is still in the very early days is the automation, portion of this, right?

当你把资产从模拟技术转移到数字技术，让它成为数字资产时，它立刻就原生地存在于这个数字市场中，我们认为AI会在其中扮演越来越重要的角色，所以现在这个资产可以直接与AI交互。

When you move the asset from an analog technology to digital so that it is a digital asset, instantaneously it is native you know to this digital market where we think that, you know, AI is gonna play an increasingly important role and so, you know, now this asset can directly interface with AI.

我觉得可以把它想象成电子邮件。

I would think about it like email.

电子邮件不只是加快了速度，让我能发给世界上任何人。

Email wasn't just about, you know, moving from, you know, speeding things up and enabling me to send something to anybody in the world.

现在有了电子邮件，我可以接入AI代理来回复邮件，让代理帮我安排日程，这些都是以前做不到的——我肯定不能让我的AI代理去处理我家门口的信箱。

Now with my email, can plug in the AI agent to, you know, respond to my email, I can have the agent, you know, schedule for me and all of that is unlike and I certainly couldn't have my AI agent do that with my mailbox out in front of my house.

所以我觉得这里也有类似的东西，从AI的角度来看，这会带来什么。

So I think there's a similar element here of what this is gonna enable, from an AI, element too.

最后，还有个性化和定制化的元素，我觉得这些和传统模拟轨道上已经建立的东西是不同的。

And then lastly, just like the personalization and customization, elements which you know, I think are are different here vis a vis, you know, what's been built in on traditional analog rails.

好的。

Okay.

这很有帮助。

That's very helpful.

我特别想问你这个问题。

I I wanted to ask you specifically about this.

很高兴你提到了这个。

I'm glad you brought it up.

它们被称为智能投资组合，我听说你谈到过AI和代币化的交汇、碰撞，或者随便你怎么称呼它。

They're called intelligent portfolios, and I've heard you make about, you know, the intersection, collision, whatever you wanna call it, of AI and tokenization.

如今，人工智能或超级智能是如何参与这些产品的？

How is artificial intelligence or super intelligence involved in in these products today?

未来它们又会如何参与呢？

How might they be in the future?

现在这看起来是什么样子的？

What does that look like right now?

关于这些智能投资组合的品牌，我觉得有今天和明天两种说法。

So the branding on these of of intelligent portfolios, I think there's there's, you know, kind of a today thing and a tomorrow thing.

从今天的角度来看，它们的智能体现在最初的投资组合是由专业的资产配置者构建的。

You know, from a today perspective, you know, these are intelligent in the sense that, you know, the first portfolios were built by professional allocators.

正如你提到的，一些投资组合由贝莱德提供支持，它是全球最大的资产管理公司。

You know, as you as you mentioned, some of the portfolios are powered by BlackRock, the world's largest asset manager.

所以在组合的构成中，确实有一个智能层。

So there's an intelligence layer in the composition.

第二点是关于可编程性方面的智能。

The second is the intelligence around the programmability piece.

这些产品运行在智能合约上，所以投资、撤资、再平衡都是通过智能合约自动完成的。

So these run on smart contracts, so the invest, divest, rebalance, that all happens automatically through the smart contract.

所以智能合约本身就带有一定的智能元素。

So there's an element of intelligence vis a vis the smart contract.

而且我们构建这些产品的方式，和现在构建金库或者其他链上投资策略的方式不一样。

And then, you know, how we constructed these is different than, you know, how vaults are constructed today or other onchain portfolio strategies.

这里实际上有一个托管人，负责托管底层资产。

There's actually a custodian here that custodies the underlying assets.

也就是说，一个合格的托管人持有底层资产组合，我们认为这比目前数字资产领域的一些现有结构在智能方面有所提升。

So a qualified custodian holds the underlying composition which we think is, you know, an intelligence improvement on, you know, some of the current structures in the digital asset realm.

展望未来，这里有一种含义，就是资产本身是基础，但人工智能将成为驱动它的智能层，而资产或价值传输层将与这个智能层交汇。

As it relates to the go forward, you know, there's a connotation that you can pull on there with, you know, this is the asset but artificial intelligence which will be the intelligence layer to power, you know, this will be the asset or the value transmission layer that is going to intersect with that intelligence layer.

所以我们正在这里埋下伏笔，为与AI的交汇做准备，关于这如何……

And so we're kind of laying the breadcrumbs there, to the intersection with AI in terms of how this is...

这个产品线正在……

This product line is being.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

这背景信息真的很有用，因为大家说“智能”这个词，但意思总是不一样。

That's really helpful context because people use the word intelligent, and it always means different things.

而且未来可能跟现在不一样。

And the future could be different than today.

所以这个背景信息很有帮助。

So helpful context on that.

我确实想问一下这个。

I do wanna ask about this.

这些产品上的品牌写着“由贝莱德提供支持”。

The the branding on these says powered by BlackRock.

而且BlackRock和Ondo之间其实有长期的合作关系。

And, you know, BlackRock and Ondo have had kind of a long standing relationship.

跟我们聊聊BlackRock在这些产品中的参与情况吧，这种合作是什么样的，现在这种关系的性质又是怎样的？

Tell us a little bit about BlackRock's involvement with these products, what that partnership has been like and what the nature of that relationship is today.

你知道，智能投资组合的推出一开始有七项功能，其中三项是收益型的，两项是主题型的，比如AI投资组合、MAG七加加密货币，还有两项是增长型的增长策略。

You know the launch of intelligent portfolios started with seven capabilities that really span income capabilities, three of them are oriented there, two of them are thematic, so think of like an AI portfolio, a MAG seven x with crypto, and then two of them are growth oriented growth strategies.

另一种理解方式就是看它们是由什么驱动的。

The other way you can think about this is by, you know, the powering of them.

所以正如你提到的，有三个投资组合是由BlackRock驱动的，因为BlackRock提供了投资策略。

And so as you pointed out, three of the portfolios are powered by BlackRock, in that BlackRock provided the investment strategies.

他们做了资产配置、证券选择，还为Ondo的三个智能投资组合做了权重分配。

So they did the asset allocation, the security selection, they did the waiting for, three of the Ondo intelligent portfolios.

而BlackRock显然是全球最大的资产管理公司。

And so, you know, BlackRock is obviously the largest asset manager in the world.

我觉得如果...

You know, I think if...

对我来说，这意味着他们和客户的交流最多。

What that means to me is, you know, they are having the most client conversations.

他们最了解市场的最新动态。

They're closest to what's happening in the market.

他们能捕捉到趋势，而且显然，他们在创新和以客户为导向开发产品方面一直做得非常出色。他们在这里的工作让我看到，他们正朝着我们刚才谈到的方向前进，也就是数字资产和加密货币的融合。

They're picking up on trends and and obviously they've been a tremendous, you know, organization in terms of innovation and being client led in the products that they develop and you know, their work here indicates to me that, you know, they're seeing the direction that we just talked about this convergence of digital assets and crypto.

实际上，他们上周发布了一份名为“机器经济”的报告，谈到了人工智能和数字资产的融合。

Actually, was a paper that they've, issued last week called the the machine economy, which talks about this convergence of AI and digital assets.

所以，其中三个投资组合是由贝莱德支持的。

And so three of the portfolios are are powered by BlackRock.

我觉得他们显然对这个行业的未来非常有远见，能和贝莱德支持的这三个投资组合一起进入市场，感觉非常棒。

I think, you know, they're they're clearly, very forward looking on on where this industry is headed and, you know, it's been great to to be in market, with three of these portfolios that are powered by by BlackRock.

明白了。

Gotcha.

太好了。

Awesome.

所以这个背景信息很有帮助。

So that's a helpful context there.

贝莱德，我觉得，是你们在这些产品上的第一个战略合作伙伴，但Ondo很容易就能引入更多。

BlackRock, I believe, is the first strategy partner you've had on these, but Ondo could very easily bring in more.

你觉得这会怎么发展？

How do you see that happening?

你希望看到其他资产管理公司也参与这些产品吗？

Are there other asset managers you'd like to see, you know, engaging with these products as well?

这是你发展产品的一个重点吗？

Is that a focus for you in terms of growing the product?

跟我聊聊这个。

And and talk to me about that.

所以再说一次，用那个ETF的类比，这对我来说就是这个市场的SPY时刻。

So again, using that that ETF analogy here, I mean, you know, this this to me was the spy moment of this market.

SPY就是标普500。

Spy was just the S and P 500.

你不可能做到杠杆反向货币商品智能贝塔、单只股票这些。

You couldn't have done leveraged inverse currency commodity, you know, smart beta, single stock.

在SPY出现之前，你不可能做到所有这些。

You couldn't have done all of those things until you had done SPY.

所以我觉得……

So I...

我们把这看作一个起点。

You know, we view this as the starting point.

这第一套能力是被动配置。

This first capability set, you know, is is a passive allocation.

我认为未来会发展出主动管理的能力。

Where I think this will go is you'll see capability that is actively managed.

你会看到永续合约、预测市场和期权的组合，全部打包成一个智能投资组合。

You'll see, the combination of perpetuals and prediction markets and options all packaged into, you know, a single intelligent portfolio.

未来会有更多基金经理，世界上一些最优秀的资产配置者、风险经理和投资组合经理会来驱动智能投资组合，这就是我们看好的方向。

You'll see more managers, you know, you'll see some of the world's greatest, you know, asset allocators and risk managers and portfolio managers powering intelligent portfolios in the future and so that's where we think it's headed.

可能有一天，通过另一个平台，任何人都能创建并推出自己的投资组合，但目前我们的重点还是放在精选一流的资产经理和资产配置者上，把这种能力带给那些过去可能没有机会接触到的人。

You know, there's probably a day where, you know, through a different platform, you know, anybody would be able to spin up a portfolio to offer, but at the, you know, our focus right now is really on curating best in class asset managers and asset allocators, to bring that capability, to people that, you know, may not have had access to to that in the past.

所以，这就是我们现在的重点。

And so, that's where we're focused today.

这是起点。

This was the starting point.

这个阵容肯定会按照我刚才描述的那个模式不断演进。

That lineup is certainly gonna progress, you know, across that that paradigm that I described.

好的。

Okay.

听起来确实还有更多内容要推出。

So definitely sounds like more to come there.

约翰，我觉得关于这个，有个很好的问题就是，到底是谁在管理这些投资组合？

John, I think a great question to ask about this is just who is actually managing the portfolios?

因为你看到了智能投资组合。

Because, you know, you see intelligent portfolios.

你可能会想，也许是AI在管理。

You could think maybe AI is running it.

你看到由贝莱德提供支持，可能会想，也许是贝莱德在管理。

You see powered by BlackRock, and you think maybe BlackRock is running it.

是Ondo吗？

Is it Ondo?

还是用户自己？

Is it the user themselves?

跟我说说，到底是谁在每天管理这些投资组合。

Talk to me about who's actually managing the portfolios day to day.

如果我是使用这些产品的用户，谁……

And, you know, if I'm a user engaging with these products, who...

基本上，谁在管理我的钱？

Who's who's running my money, basically?

这是个好问题。

It's a great question.

那我先讲讲整个流程吧。

So maybe I'll describe the workflow.

我就拿MAG7X来举例。

So I'll I'll use MAG7X, as an example here.

它的代码是MAG7XON，代表Ondo。

So the ticker is MAG7XON for Ondo.

John，你进来的时候是用稳定币来买这个产品的。

John, you would come into this product in stablecoin.

也就是说，你把USDC转到智能合约里。

So you would deliver USDC to the smart contract.

你的钱包会跟智能合约交互，你转进去USDC，马上就能收到MAG 7X代币。

So your wallet would would interact, with with the the smart contract, that USDC, you would receive instantly MAG 7 x token.

比如你买一千美元，你就转一千美元的USDC进去，立刻就能拿到MAG 7X代币。

So if you were buying a thousand dollars, you know, you deliver a thousand dollars of USDC and you would receive the MAG 7 x token, you know, right at that instant.

在后台，通过程序和机制，这一千美元会跟智能合约交互，智能合约里有一套投资策略，会立刻执行底层的投资组合。

Behind the scenes and mechanically and programmatically, that $1,000 is gonna, you know, interact with the smart contract which has the methodology for, in this case, investing that capital and so instantaneously the smart contract would be executing the underlying basket.

所以在这个例子中，它会买入那七只MAG 7股票，再加上iBit和以太坊，这些代币会再次即时交付给合格的托管人，而你现在就持有了MAG 7 x代币。

So in this instance, it would be buying the seven MAG 7 stocks, plus iBit and Ethereum, those tokens would be delivered again instantaneously to the qualified custodian and, you would be now long MAG 7 x token.

所以这是一个与智能合约相关的自动化过程。

So this is, an automated, you know, process as it relates to the smart contract.

链上进行了大量的检查和平衡，以确保其安全性和质量。

There's a tremendous number of checks and balances that are done on chain to ensure, you know, the security and kind of quality of that.

但最终，这是机器运行的。

But ultimately, you know, this is this is machine, machine run.

有人类在监控这个过程，确保一切高效运行，但实际的操作完全是自动化的。

There are humans that are that are watching the process and and ensuring, you know, that that everything is working efficiently, but the actual movement is all automated.

所以当你想想这与传统结构相比意味着什么，你就是在把很多人为因素去掉，对吧？

So when you think of what that means, you know, a vis traditional structures, you're taking a lot of the human element out of this, right?

这使我们能够提供比传统工具更低的成本结构。

And so that enables us to deliver these lower, you know, cost structure than traditional vehicles.

它把很多中间商从这个等式中移除，并为最终投资者简化了流程，而这正是Ondo智能投资组合所做的。

It takes a lot of the the middlemen out of that equation and, you know, streamlines the process, for the end investor, and that's that's ultimately what Ondo Intelligent Portfolios are are doing.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得这些背景信息非常有帮助，因为新产品有时候确实让人摸不着头脑。

I think that's very helpful context because these new products can be sometimes confusing.

所以听你讲讲具体的运作机制，我觉得挺有帮助的。

So just hearing the the machinations of how it works, I think, is helpful.

约翰，我想聊聊代币化竞赛，因为这场竞赛里有很多其他玩家。

John, I wanna talk about the tokenization race because there are a lot of other players in this race.

有很多其他人在争夺资金、市场份额，还有股票和国债。

There's a lot of other people competing for for capital, for market share, and, you know, equities and and treasuries.

而且涉及的资产类别也很多样。

There's there's a lot of different asset classes at play too.

我们……

Let...

我们就先从国债说起吧。

Let's just start with treasuries.

你……

You know, you...

就像我们在节目开头说的，你们的总锁仓量已经突破了40亿美元。

Like like we said at the beginning of the show, you guys crossed 4,000,000,000 in TVL.

你们仍然是最大的代币化国债平台。

You're still the biggest tokenized treasury platform.

你们领先于富兰克林。

You're ahead of Franklin.

你们领先于Circle、贝莱德等很多其他机构。

You're ahead of Circle, BlackRock, many others.

你们是怎么做到在代币化国债领域占据并保持这么主导的地位的？

How have you guys been able to, you know, reach and maintain such a dominant position on tokenized treasuries?

是什么让你们在这个市场、这个资产类别中拥有这样的优势？

What's giving you that advantage in that marketplace in that asset class?

所以，你看，我觉得这其实不算是竞争，对吧？

So, look, I think it's it's very much a, you know, I wouldn't call competition, right?

我觉得在很多方面这其实是合作竞争，对吧？

I think that in a lot of ways it's a coopetition, right?

我们实际上和刚才你提到的那些名字都在非常紧密地合作，一起开创这个类别。

We're actually working very, very closely with all of the names that you just mentioned to, you know, pioneer this category together.

所以以OUSG为例，这是我们面向美国投资者的美国国债基金，还有USDY，这是面向美国以外投资者的无许可国债产品，其中一部分资金实际上是由你刚才提到的那些机构管理的。

So in the case of, you know, OUSG, which is our US treasury fund available to US investors and USDY, which is the permissionless, treasury product, for for folks outside The US, you know, some of that capital is actually managed by some of the names that that you just mentioned.

所以这真的是把我们的技术和开发技术的能力，与他们在资本市场上的专业知识结合起来。至于你提到的排名，我们在代币化国债、代币化股票和ETF方面确实是第一，但这真的不是为了争第一。

So it's really been about, you know, combining our technology and our ability to develop technology, you know, with their expertise in in capital markets and, you know, we are, as it relates to kind of the rankings that you mentioned, you know, number one in tokenized treasuries, number one in tokenized stocks and ETFs, you know, but but it's really hasn't been about being number one.

这真的是为了赋能投资者，并与现有生态系统协调，为投资者提供更好的能力组合。

It's really been about, you know, empowering investors and coordinating that with, you know, the existing ecosystem to deliver a better capability set for investors.

如果人们要转换成本，或者在这个例子中要学习新技术，产品必须更好，人们才会来用。我们通过真正与生态系统的各个部分合作，开发出对最终投资者更好的东西。

The product has to be better, you know, if they're switching costs or in this example new learnings and new technologies, the product has to be that much better for people to come to it and we've approached it by really, you know, partnering, with the various elements of the ecosystem to develop something that is better for end investors.

这就是我们的北极星，就是问：这对最终投资者更好吗？

And that's kind of our north star is is really about, is this better for end investors?

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

所以你专注于好产品和合作竞争。

So you're focusing on good products and coopetition.

我本来想挑起争论的，约翰，但合作竞争这个说法挺好的。

I'm trying to start a fight, John, but coopetition's a good way to frame it.

让我们……

Let...

我们来谈谈代币化股票吧，因为这个领域已经变得非常拥挤了。

Let's talk about tokenized stocks because this has gotten very crowded.

比如，有Robinhood、Coinbase。

Like, there's Robinhood, Coinbase.

币安在这个领域也是个大竞争对手。

Binance is also a big competitor in in this space.

而且很多这些平台通过他们已有的用户，拥有非常庞大的分销网络。

And a lot of these platforms have very large distribution networks through their their users they already have.

跟我说说代币化股票这个领域吧，Ondo打算怎么在这么多竞争里脱颖而出，继续发展壮大？

Talk to me about the tokenized equity space and how Ondo plans to differentiate itself and continue to thrive and grow despite all this competition that's in this space.

你看，我觉得竞争是件好事。

Look, I I think the the competition is is fantastic.

而且就像你刚才说的，这个市场现在还处在非常非常早期的阶段。

And I think that as you've pointed out, we're in the very, very early stages of this this market.

所以我觉得，等这个市场成熟了，我们再去担心竞争的问题。但现在，还有很多教育要做。

And so, you know, I think we'll we'll worry about competition when this market has matured, but at this point, there's so much education that has to happen.

这些产品还有很多不确定性。

There's tremendous, you know, uncertainty out there as it relates to these products.

教育方面的缺口还很大，需要去填补。所以随着更多人进入这个市场，大家一起教育终端用户，这个负担就会减轻。而Ondo早期在股票方面开创的模式，当时被市场很多人批评，现在却成了我们被认可的一个点。

There's a giant education gap that needs to be closed and so as more, you know, people come into this market, that's gonna, you know, alleviate that burden as we collectively educate the end user and, you know, Ondo, the model that we pioneered as it relates to stocks in the early days was was very much critiqued by by others in the market, and now we see it as a point of validation.

现在几乎所有发行代币化股票的公司，都跟着我们开创的模式走。这说明我们当初的策略是有效的，尽管早期有很多质疑的声音。

Nearly every other issuer of tokenized stocks has has kind of followed the model that we pioneered, which which, you know, tells us that the strategy that we deployed, you know, was the effective one despite, you know, a lot of naysayers in the early days.

而且当初批评这个模式最厉害的一些人，最后也接受了这个模式，因为它确实行得通。

And some of the most outspoken critics of this model, you know, have have, you know, capitulated to to this model, because it works.

所以我想说的是，更多的竞争对这个领域是好事，就像ETF市场一样，我刚开始的时候只有三家发行商。

And so, you know, what I would say is more competition is good for this space just as the ETF market again, when I started, there were three issuers.

现在我觉得有超过一千家了。

I think there's over a thousand issuers today.

它们都在增长。

They're all growing.

它们都在蓬勃发展，因为这是一个非常大的市场，而且大家能一起做的教育越多，对产品线就越好，我觉得我们在股票方面就处于这个阶段。

They're all, you know, prospering because it's a very large market and the more education that can happen collectively, know, better for the product line and I think we're in that stage as it relates to stocks.

说到我们做的事情和其他人的比较，就像我说的，我们一直在循序渐进地建设。

Vis a vis you know what we're doing to compare that to others, you know, as I talked about, we've been building sequentially.

我们从国债开始，然后是股票，接着是永续合约，现在又进入了智能投资组合。

We started with treasuries, then stocks, then perps, now on to intelligent portfolios.

这些东西都是层层叠加的，我们就像拼乐高一样，把这些积木拼在一起，为客户创造更好的解决方案。

Each of these things build on top of each other and we are kind of, you know, snapping these Lego pieces together to create better solutions for clients.

所以，关于我们的护城河以及长期的发展方向，目前有些能力只有我们才能提供，我们会继续这样做，始终着眼于为最终客户创造价值。

And so, as it relates to our moat and kind of, you know, where this will be longer term, there are capabilities that only we can deliver, you know, at this point in time and we'll continue to do that with an eye towards adding value to end customers.

归根结底，资本会流向对它最好的地方，我们的重点是打造能够赋能全球投资者的能力。

At the end of the day, capital is gonna, you know, flow to where it's treated best, and, you know, our focus is on building capabilities that empower investors globally.

你知道吗，加密货币的一个奇怪之处在于，你待得越久，账户似乎就越多。

Know, one of the weird things about crypto is that the longer you're in it, the more accounts you seem to end up with.

你在一个地方买，在另一个地方交易，在别的地方赚收益。

You buy in one place, trade somewhere else, earn yield somewhere else.

如果你真的需要资金，你最终不得不卖掉一些你可能本来想保留的东西。

And if you actually need capital, you end up having to sell something that you probably wanted to keep.

这就是为什么我们Milk Road与Nexo合作。

That's why we at Milk Road are partnering with Nexo.

这些人把整个事情都放在一个账户里。

These guys keep the whole thing under one account.

你可以买卖加密货币，在你已有的资产上赚取利息，甚至可以在不出售的情况下借入资金。

You can buy, trade crypto, earn interest on what you already hold, and even borrow against your capital without having to sell it.

都在一个地方，都在一个账户里，都在Nexo上。

All in one spot, all in one account, all on Nexo.

所以，如果你需要流动性，但又不想放弃你的仓位，或者你手里已经有加密货币，想让它发挥更大作用，我觉得Nexo值得你花时间了解一下。

So if you need liquidity but you don't wanna give up your position or you're already holding crypto and you wanna be able to do more with it, I think Nexo is worth your time.

我们很喜欢和他们合作。

We love working with them.

我觉得你也会喜欢的。

I think you will too.

告诉他们，是Milk Road推荐你来的。

Tell them Milk Road sent you.

我觉得这也许能引出我一直在想的那个问题，不过就是……

I think this maybe segues into a question that I had in mind, but just like...

所以，大家要明白，代币化产品有不同的版本。

So people understand, there are different versions of tokenized products.

它们不是用同一种方式创建的。

They're not all created the same way.

它们也不是用同一种方式推向市场的。

They're not all brought to market the same way.

为了让人们了解Ondo的产品，比如，如果我是一个巴西的出租车司机，在Ondo上买了一些苹果股票，我实际拥有的是什么？

Just so people understand Ondo's offering, like, for example, if I'm a taxi driver in Brazil and I buy some Apple stock on Ondo, what do I actually own?

这和华尔街投资者在传统系统里买苹果股票得到的东西是一样的吗？

Is it the same thing that, like, an investor on Wall Street would get if they bought Apple in the legacy system?

还是说这是一个拥有不同权利的不同产品？

Is it a different product that has different rights?

那么，有哪些不同之处呢？

And and, like, what are the distinctives that are different?

哪些地方是一样的？

What is the same?

Ondo把产品推向市场时，实际提供的是什么？

And and what is what is Ondo's product actually offering when they bring this to market?

用这个巴西出租车司机的例子来说，他可能有一部苹果手机，长期关注美国资本市场，但在某些方面一直被排除在这个市场之外。

Know, using this example of the the taxi driver in Brazil, right, that that maybe has an Apple phone and has, you know, followed US capital markets for a long time, but has been, excluded from, you know, this this market in certain capacities.

首先，这关乎让他们能够接触到世界上最具创新力的公司。

You know, in the first instance, this is about them getting access to the world's most innovative, companies.