稳定币到2030年可能增长10倍——但这些加密货币项目有望获得更大的收益

我们知道，现在每家机构、每家银行多少都有点稳定币的计划。

We know that, like, every institution, every bank has some degree of a stablecoin plan at at this point.

如果他们没有某种参与计划的话，那就是失职了。

They they would be negligent, if they didn't have some sort of plan about how to get involved.

去年稳定币在链上转移了数万亿美元，但根据Citrini Research的一份新报告，其中只有极小一部分是用于实际支付。

Stablecoins moved tens of trillions of dollars on chain last year, but according to a new report from Citrini Research, only a tiny sliver of that was people actually paying for things.

那么，如果稳定币不是支付轨道，它们又是什么？投资者需要了解哪些相关情况？

So what are stablecoins if they are not payment rails, and what do investors need to know about all of this?

大家好，欢迎收听Milk Road Crypto，这个节目即使在市场不景气时也总能带来亮点。

Hello, and welcome to Milk Road Crypto, the show that always brings the spark even when the markets don't.

我是主持人John Gillen。

I'm your host, John Gillen.

今天是10月20日，星期二，今天我们请到了Sam MacPherson。

Today is Tuesday, October 20, and today we are joined by Sam MacPherson.

Sam是Spark的联合创始人兼CEO，Spark是Sky生态系统（前MakerDAO）中最大的资本分配者。

Sam is the cofounder and CEO of Spark, the biggest capital allocator in the Sky ecosystem, formerly MakerDAO.

山姆是谈论加密货币各种事情的最佳人选之一，所以今天他会和我们分享大量干货。

Sam is one of the best people to talk to about all things crypto, so he's gonna share a ton of alpha with us today.

如果你觉得不错，记得点赞和订阅。

If that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe.

把这期节目分享给会喜欢它的人吧。

Share this episode with somebody who's gonna enjoy it.

我们今天没有赞助商，所以我就只想说，非常感谢大家观看和支持这个节目。

We don't have any sponsors today, so I'm just gonna say thank you all so much for watching and supporting the show.

这对我们意义重大。

It means a lot to us.

如果你喜欢我们做的东西，分享这期节目，确保你认识的人知道我们。

If you like what we do here, share the episode and make sure somebody you know knows about us.

话不多说，欢迎来到Milk Road Crypto。

But without further ado, welcome to Milk Road Crypto.

山姆·麦克弗森，欢迎你，先生。

Sam MacPherson, Welcome, sir.

你好，最近怎么样？

How are you?

我挺不错的。

I'm doing great.

谢谢你邀请我来。

Thanks for having me.

Sam，今天能跟你聊我特别兴奋。

Sam, I'm really excited to talk to you today.

你可是加密货币领域里最资深的搭建者之一。

You are one of the the oldest and most vetted builders in all of crypto.

所以今天特别期待能从你这儿取点经。

So I'm excited to get some wisdom from you today.

我觉得节目一开始，最好先跟我们讲讲Spark的情况。

I thought a good place to start the show would be with just telling us a little bit about Spark.

因为对刚接触加密货币的人来说，可能还不太熟悉。

Because for people who are new to crypto, they may not be familiar.

Spark是什么？它在Sky生态系统中处于什么位置？

What is Spark, and where does it sit in the Sky ecosystem?

所以Sky，也就是从MakerDAO改名来的，基本上从DeFi一开始就存在了，最早在2019年就推出了。

So Sky, which is a rebrand from MakerDAO, has existed since basically the beginning of DeFi, originally launched in 2019 even.

其中一部分是品牌改名为Sky，但从大约2022年开始的升级中，治理结构进行了重组，使得Sky处于一个核心的位置。

Part of this is there was a rebrand to Sky, but part of the upgrade that occurred starting in about 2022 was a restructuring of the governance such that Sky sits.

我觉得用一个类比来解释会比较清楚。

I think this is a useful analogy.

Sky有点像中央银行，向各个子DAO提供批发流动性，而Spark就是其中之一。

Sky sits as like more like a central bank that issues wholesale liquidity to sub DAOs of which Spark is one of those.

Spark则更像商业银行，我们吸收存款，然后主要把贷款发放给超额抵押的加密货币。

Spark sits as more of a like similar to a commercial bank and that we take in deposits and then we are lending our book mostly against over collateralized crypto.

这种重组在治理方面有很多好处，同时也有助于整个系统的扩展。

This restructuring has a has a number of benefits both from the governance side, but as well as sort of scaling the system as a whole.

这就是关于Spark的大致情况。

So it's a little bit about Spark.

Spark 是跨 DeFi 和传统金融领域的资本配置者。

Spark, is a capital allocator across DeFi, DeFi, TradFi.

我们有很多产品。

And so we have a number of products.

我们有 SparkLend，这是我们的资金池借贷市场，可以用加密货币、比特币、以太坊、LST 等作为抵押进行借贷。

We have, SparkLend, which is our pooled lending market, which, lends against crypto, Bitcoin, ETH, LSTs, these types of things.

它是第二大资金池借贷市场，目前总锁仓量（TVL）达到 50 亿美元。

It is the second largest pooled lending market at, 5,000,000,000 in TVL as of as of today.

是的，过去几个月它增长相当快。

And, yeah, it's been growing quite a bit over the past past few months.

Spark 还有另一个产品叫 Spark Savings，你可以用它来赚取 USDC、USDT 的收益，而且我们也在不断增加对新兴稳定币的支持。

Spark also has another product called Spark Savings, which allows you to earn on your USDC, USDT, and increasingly, we're supporting newer stablecoins that are coming to market.

这基本上是一个资金管理产品，底层设计上非常注重流动性，这样用户可以方便地……

This is basically a treasury management product that's designed to be highly liquid with the underlying so that people can get...

特别是机构用户，他们可以大规模地进出 Spark Savings，甚至达到数亿级别的规模。

Institutions in particular can get in and out of the Spark savings at large size, hundreds of millions even.

我们还有机构级的加密货币场外借贷产品。

We also have, institutional OTC crypto lending product.

这种贷款是通过像Anchorage这样的合格托管机构，以比特币为抵押发放的。

This is loans through qualified custodians such as Anchorage, against Bitcoin.

而且我们最近还推出了一款新产品，叫做稳定币外汇层，主要是在稳定币之间进行清算，尤其是那些需要流动性的较小稳定币，跟主要的像USDC、USDT进行兑换。

And we also, more recently launched a product called the stablecoin FX layer where, we facilitate clearing between stablecoins, especially the smaller ones who need liquidity with, mainly like USDC, USDT.

我们会在链上通过Uniswap做市，提供大量流动性，这样使用这些较新稳定币的人，比如PayPal的Pi USD、r0usd、USDG等等，就可以兑换成那些更大规模的稳定币。

So we'll do market making there on chain through Uniswap and provide large amounts of, liquidity so that people who are using these newer stablecoins such as PayPal, Pi USD, r 0 u s d, USDG, etcetera, can swap with the, the other more larger stablecoins.

你们是DeFi里最老的项目之一，正如你所说，但你们还在不断创新。

You guys are one of the oldest projects in DeFi, as you said, but you're also still innovating.

你们自称是链上最大的资本分配者，部署了超过30亿美元。

You guys have called yourselves the largest capital allocators on chain with over $3,000,000,000 deployed.

而且正如你提到的，这个稳定币外汇层，作为相对较新的产品，自6月份以来已经完成了超过150亿美元的交易量。

And as you referenced, this stablecoin FX layer, which is a relatively new product, has done over $15,000,000,000 in volume since June.

跟我聊聊，你们的业务在熊市和牛市中的运作机制有什么不同？

Talk to me about how the the bear market versus bull market dynamics work for your business.

这些产品线在牛市还是熊市里表现更好？

Do these product lines tend to perform better in a bull or a bear?

还是说没啥区别？

Does it not matter?

那到底是什么样的动态，推动Spark这么大规模的增长？

And what what are those dynamics like that drives this this huge growth in Spark?

我觉得越来越明显的是，我们在各种市场环境下都有布局，逐渐减少了对加密牛市周期的依赖，但我们依然能获得相当可观的回报。

I would say increasingly, we have coverage across a wide range of the market conditions and sort of diversifying away from the crypto bull cycles, but we still do make a fairly large return.

核心业务是把USDS的资产负债表配置到各种机会上，主要是像DeFi、C5这类，然后赚取净息差收益。

The core business is allocating the USDS balance sheet into opportunities across primarily like DeFi, C5, these types of things, and then earning a net interest margin on that.

所以，在牛市行情下，收入可能比熊市高三四倍。

So during bullish conditions, like the revenue can be three, four times higher than it is during bear conditions.

所以说还是存在这种周期性波动。

So there is still this cyclicality to it.

但我们也看到越来越多增长，我觉得这背后的根本驱动力是稳定币的普及和应用，这才是目前推动加密市场真正发展的关键。

But increasingly, we see a lot of growth in with with what I think is really driving the fundamental growth of crypto right now, which is stablecoin adoption.

所以最开始我们看到是交易所在发行稳定币，但现在我们看到金融科技公司，更多传统金融领域的参与者进入了这个领域。

So we see, you know, initially it was exchanges, that are are launching stablecoins, but now we see fintechs, more trad five players coming into the space.

Robinhood 就是一个很好的例子。

Robinhood being a good example of this.

而且现在我们甚至在和银行谈合作。

And now increasingly, we're talking to even, banks as well.

我觉得随着明年初相关机制生效，这将会大大加速。

And I think this is going to really accelerate, as genius comes into effect at the beginning of next year.

比特币这次回调吓坏了不少人，但我不是其中之一。

This pullback on Bitcoin is scaring a lot of people, and I am not one of them.

所以如果你想知道我没有卖什么、为什么没卖，我的观察名单上有哪些，以及我打算什么时候向市场投入更多资金，今天就加入 Milk Road PRO 吧。

So if you wanna see what I'm not selling and why, what's on my watch list, and when I'm gonna be deploying more capital into these markets, you can join Milk Road PRO today.

只需要一美元。

It's just a dollar.

链接在描述区里。

The link is in the description.

我在Discord上不分昼夜地回答问题。

I answer questions day and night in Discord.

我们到时候见。

I'll see you there.

好的。

Okay.

这里有很多内容要讨论。

So there's a lot to unpack here.

在我们谈论明年的形势之前，我想问你一件事——今年四月的Kelpdau漏洞事件发生时，让我印象深刻的是Spark在一月份就已经放弃了Kelpdau以及相关的抵押品，也就是这次攻击中涉及的传染源，这比攻击发生早了几个月。

One of the things I wanted to ask you about before we get into, you know, what next year looks like, when the the Kelpdau exploit happened earlier this year in April, what stood out to me a lot was that Spark had already dropped Kelpdau and and the collateral that that was the contagion in this attack back in January, months before the attack happened.

看起来你们比别人更早识别出了风险。

And it seems like you guys identified a risk before others did.

跟我讲讲这个过程吧，因为我觉得由于AI和量子计算等带来的安全问题，在DeFi中越来越令人担忧。

Talk to me about that process because I think security concerns, you know, because of AI and quantum, many other things are a growing concern in DeFi.

看来你们很早就发现了这个风险。

It seems like you guys were early to catch this this risk here.

你们是怎么做到的？

How did you do that?

别人漏掉了什么？

What were others missing?

那是什么样的感觉？

What was that like?

这其实就是经历了多个周期，尤其是在牛市期间的产物。

So this is a product of just having gone through many cycles, especially during the bull periods.

当时有一种压力，竞争压力，逼着你冒险。

There was sort of this, like, pressure, competitive pressure to risk on.

而我们一直采取更保守的策略，牛市期间我们不一定增长得最猛，但我们的资产负债表和存款规模是一步步稳健增长的。

And we've always taken this more conservative tack where, you know, we don't necessarily get the most explosive growth during the bull market periods, but we also are durably growing the balance sheet and deposits over time.

所以这是我们的总体基调，但具体到RSEETH事件的话。

So this is just sort of our general posture, but like as to get into specifics about the RSEETH incident.

我们在Sparklend上确实列了不少抵押品。

So we do list a number of collateral on on Sparklend.

这是我们的资金池借贷市场。

This is our pooled lending market.

我们确实上架过RSE，但当时设了非常保守的限额。

We did list RSE that one point, but it was under very conservative limits.

我们的风险敞口远远没有他们那么大，他们才是那次事件的主要目标。

We had nowhere near as much exposure as as they did that they were the big target during that incident.

所以实际上发生的情况是，我们看到这不……

And so really what happened was, we saw this wasn't...

我们会定期审视允许在Sparklend上作为抵押品的资产，如果它们不符合要求，就会将其移除。

We we routinely take looks at, the collateral that is allowed on Sparkland and we'll remove them, if they're not...

如果风险调整后的回报不理想的话。

If the risk adjusted return is is not favorable.

所以今年一月我们把它下架了，这只是常规去风险流程的一部分。

So we off boarded this in, January of this year just as part of a regular derisking, process.

我们并没有预知具体会发生什么问题的水晶球。

So, like, we do not have a crystal ball into what particular failure will happen.

我们只知道这个领域非常新。

All we know is this space is is very new.

而且正如你所说，人工智能正在加速黑客攻击。

And as you say, AI is accelerating the hacks.

所以我们只是采取非常防御性的姿态，去风险化，尽可能多地消除尾部风险，只专注于高规模抵押品。

And so we are just taking a very defensive posture, derisking, removing as much tail risk as we possibly can and just focusing on the high scale collateral.

所以，我们在Sparkling中早期就有一些特色，我们有存款和借款的速率限制，防止资金大量涌入市场。

So a part of some of the features that we have in Sparkling that we differentiated ourselves pretty early on, we have rate limits in the amount of supplies and borrows that can go into the market.

即使是机构借款人，通常也不需要一次性抵押10亿，然后借出5亿。

If you have even an institutional borrower, they often do not need to put up 1,000,000,000 in collateral and then borrow 500,000,000 in one go.

他们会分批次进行。

They'll move it up in chunks.

所以他们完全可以接受在几天内完成这些操作。

And so they're perfectly okay to have, you know, do this over the course of several days.

因此，速率限制是一个极其重要的因素，它极大地阻止了黑客利用借贷市场作为进入更去中心化资产的逃生通道，比如RSE到ETH，那是通过Abe的路径。

And so rate limits are an extremely important factor, which is a big deterrent for hackers for using lending markets as an escape hatch for getting into more decentralized assets, such as the RSE to ETH, was the trajectory that went through Abe.

这是我们从一开始就有的功能之一。

So this is one of the features we've had in Sparkling from the beginning.

另外，我们有一个三重冗余的预言机，即使单个基础设施的预言机出现故障也能保持稳定。

Additionally, we have a triple redundant Oracle, that is resilient, to Oracle failure of any single infrastructure.

但总的来说，我们...

But in general, like we are...

这是我们...

This is like our...

我们最关心的问题，尤其是在人工智能时代，就是消除这些风险，在我们看到风险的地方更新我们的威胁模型，并确保我们保持非常防御性的姿态。

Always our biggest concern, especially in the age of AI, is removing these risks, where we see them, updating our threat models, and just making sure we keep a very defensive posture.

现在我们支持的抵押品种类非常有限。

Now, we have a very limited set of collateral that we allow.

我们允许使用 ETH、Lido 质押的 ETH、EtherFi、WETH、WBTC 和 CBBTC。

So we're allowing ETH, Lido staked ETH, EtherFi, WETH, WBTC, and CBBTC.

所以这五种是我们允许在 Sparkling 上用来借稳定币的抵押品。

So these are the five collateral that we allow to borrow stablecoins on Sparkling.

我们在抵押品的高杠杆再抵押方面也限制得非常严格。

We also are very limited in sort of this high leverage rehypothecation of collateral.

其他一些借贷市场允许你用ETH和各种流动性质押代币（LST）进行所谓的循环操作。

Some other lending markets out there allow you to, do looping is usually what it's called with, ETH, with many different, LSTs.

而我们只允许用Lido质押的ETH来进行循环，因为我们认为这类操作必须以非常保守的方式进行。

And we are limited to just Lido, staked ETH for looping, with ETH because we think these types of activities need to be done, in a very conservative fashion.

这些操作是有用的。

They are useful.

人们确实希望在借稳定币的同时，还能用他们的ETH赚取收益。

People do like to earn yield on their ETH while they're borrowing stablecoins.

但我们确实花很多时间研究真正可扩展的实际用例，专注于这些用例，然后尽我们所能消除所有尾部风险。

But we really take a lot of time and sort of like look at what the actual, scalable, use cases are, focus on them, and then eliminating all the tail risk to the best of our ability.

好的。

Okay.

这很有帮助。

That's very helpful.

我觉得听到你们在风险管理和安全方面采取双重保险的做法，确实能让很多投资者安心不少。

And I think it puts a lot of investors' minds at ease to hear that you're taking sort of like a belt and suspenders at the same time approach to risk management and security here.

而且到目前为止，这看起来确实取得了成效，恭喜你们。

And it seems like that's definitely paid off so far, so congratulations on that.

Sam，我想聊聊你最近经常讨论的一个话题，就是Suttrini Research新发布的那篇论文，叫《打破壁垒》。

Sam, I wanna talk a little bit about something that I've seen you discussing a lot recently, which is Suttrini Research's new paper called breaking the wall.

这篇论文讲的就是华尔街和加密世界之间的那堵墙正在倒塌。

And this this paper is all about the wall between Wall Street and crypto coming down.

在我们深入讨论这篇论文之前，我特别想听听你对机构进入加密领域的看法，以及从你在Spark的角度来看，这堵墙是怎么倒下的，两个世界开始碰撞时又发生了什么。

And before we get into the paper itself, I'm really curious your perspective on on institutions coming to crypto and what that has been like, from your perspective at Spark, and and how how this wall is coming down and what's happening as these two worlds are starting to collide.

所以我想说，不管是传统金融还是加密世界，最重要的事情就是流动性在哪里。

So I would say that really the most important thing when it comes to either TradFi or crypto is where's the liquidity.

这是驱动人们选择特定平台的动力，而且这在各个领域都是普遍的现实。

This is what drives people to use particular venues, and it's sort of a universal reality.

所以，你真正想要的是...

And so really, you want to have...

如果你相信传统金融最终都会上链这个观点，那你必须非常仔细地审视是什么在推动这个过程。

If you believe in the thesis sort of that TradFi will eventually all come on chain, you have to look very critically at what is driving that.

而且这一点是非常明显的……

And this is quite clearly...

比特币和以太坊等有储值用途，你可以自己划定界限，但稳定币才是那个产品市场契合度非常强的……

There is the store value use case with Bitcoin, Ether, wherever you wanna draw the line, but stablecoins are are the the strong product market fit that is that is drop...

从根本上推动了很多这方面的发展。

Fundamentally driving a lot of this.

那为什么会这样呢？

And so why is that?

稳定币在跨境支付和即时结算方面非常有用。

Stablecoins are are quite useful for cross border payments, instant settlement.

还有……

There's...

简单来说，就是能优化各种费用，不用支付像电汇那样的银行手续费等等。

And like it just optimizing fees in general, not having to pay these banking fees, like with wires, whatnot.

稳定币就是彻底消除了这种摩擦。

Stablecoins just like completely eliminate the friction of that.

所以这就是为什么你会看到机构开始采用，但我们仍然处于非常早期的阶段。

And so this is fundamentally why you see institutional adoption coming, but we're still very early days.

这是因为尽管我们有监管清晰度，我们知道现在和Genius的前进方向，但它还没有生效。

And it's because although we have the regulatory clarity, we know the path we're on right now with Genius, it's not yet come into effect.

它将在明年年初生效。

It will come into effect at the beginning of next year.

然后你会看到很多更大的玩家。

And then you'll see a lot of the bigger players.

现在有一些非常创新的先锋公司正在入场，但之后你会看到很多更大的玩家进入。

There's sort of the very innovative forward one companies that are coming in right now, but you'll see a lot of the bigger players coming in after that.

所以这就是推动传统金融越来越多地使用链上轨道的楔子。

And so that is sort of the wedge that will drive TradFi to increasingly use on chain rails.

然后你可以在那之上叠加所有实用功能。

And then you can layer in all the utility on top of that.

这正是Spark的核心作用，就是在稳定币之上提供各种应用功能。

And that's really where Spark sits, is enabling utility on top of stablecoins.

比如说，有个机构想发行稳定币，这当然没问题，但人们手里有了稳定币之后，接下来还能做什么呢？

So you have an institution who wants to launch a stablecoin, that's all well and good, but then like people have the stablecoin, what do you do beyond that?

你希望能够获得收益，并且能对你关心的资产保持高流动性。

You wanna earn a yield, you want high liquidity with the assets that you care about.

所以，Spark实际上就是支持这些新型稳定币的流动性基础设施。

And so Spark is really the liquidity plumbing that supports these newer stablecoins.

虽然这些机构中有一些拥有较大的资产负债表，但他们更倾向于与一个DeFi原生协议合作来启动这种流动性，因为这对他们来说是个非常陌生的领域。

And even though some of these institutions, have larger balance sheets, they would prefer to work with a DeFi native protocol to bootstrap this liquidity just because it's very unfamiliar territory for them.

所以，这就是我们认为Spark与这些机构之间存在很多产品市场契合点的地方，他们希望利用USDS资产负债表来增加它们在链上的稳定币流动性。

And so this is where we view a lot of product market fit with Spark in dealing with these institutions that they want to use the USDS balance sheet to grow their stablecoin liquidity on chain.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得你正说到我想问的事，因为你之前也提过这个话题。

I think you're getting to something that I wanted to ask you about as well because you've talked about this before.

在这个新世界里，会有两层货币体系。

There's gonna be two layers of money in this new world.

一层是稳定币所在和流动的地方。

One is gonna be where the stablecoins sit and where they move.

而在那之下，会是Sky和Spark所在的信用层。

And then below that is gonna be this credit layer where Sky and where Spark are.

你能多讲讲，每一层具体包含什么吗？

Talk to me about a little bit more of, like, what falls into each bucket?

它们之间的区别是什么？

What differentiates the two of them?

还有，你是怎么看Spark在竞争或差异化方面的定位的？

And then, you know, how do you see Spark in terms of competition or differentiation?

在这样的现实中，是什么让Spark对机构有吸引力？

What makes it attractive to institutions in that in that reality?

这其实是传统金融和加密货币之间一个有趣的差异点，因为加密货币，至少是符合Genius规范的稳定币，功能上就像是窄银行。

This is kind of an interesting differentiation point between TradFi and crypto in that crypto, at least with Genius compliant stablecoins, function as narrow banks.

它们就像被存进国库或银行存款，都是风险极低的东西。

They're just like deposited into treasury bank deposits, like just very low risk stuff.

然后在上面可以加上信用层，在货币层的基础上提供收益。

And then you can have this credit layer on top, which is providing yield on top of the sort of the money layer.

所以我觉得在货币层，这更像USDC，某种程度上也包括USDT，虽然USDT的情况稍微复杂一些。

So I view in the money layer, this is more like your USDC, USDT to a certain degree, although it's a little bit more mixed with USDT.

但随着境内稳定币的出现，比如Pie USD、RLUSD、USDG、OUSD等等。

But I would say like with the emergence of onshore stablecoins, know, pie USD, RLUSD, like USDG, OUSD, etcetera, etcetera.

这些服务于货币层，用于支付、高流动性这类操作。

These service sort of the money layer where it's for payments, it's for high liquidity, these types of operations.

然后在信用层，把传统金融中银行通常做的借贷业务分离出来。

And then you have the credit layer, which is splitting out sort of the lending side of what banks normally do within TradFi.

现在这两者变成了两个独立的部分。

These are now kind of two separate things.

所以USDS是部分准备金制度，不是全额准备金。

So USDS is a fractional reserve, it's not running a full reserve.

所以这么做是有一些权衡的。

So there are certain trade offs with that.

但好处是，你的稳定币能赚到相对安全的收益。

But the upside is that you earn this relatively safe yield on your stablecoins.

通过Spark储蓄，我们可以让USDC和USDT持有者也能使用这个功能，并且包装得很精致。

Through Spark savings, we can make that available to USDC, USDT holders and package it up in a in a nice way.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

所以我很想知道，单从收益率的角度来看，是什么让这个产品与众不同、有吸引力。

So I'm curious about what makes this distinct and attractive just from, like, a a yield perspective.

因为目前Sky的储蓄利率大概是3.8%。

Because the Sky savings rate is around 3.8% right now.

这差不多就是你买美国国债能拿到的收益。

This is about what you could get from a T bill.

相对于直接去买国库券或债券，这个有什么吸引力呢？

What makes this attractive as opposed to just going into T Bills or bonds?

跟我说说这里的区别，以及为什么有人会选择你这个收益率，而不是市场上其他地方能拿到的其他收益率。

Talk to me about the differentiation there and why someone would choose your your rate over other rates they can get other places in the market.

我觉得这个问题问得很好，因为如果你只看表面，确实，是吧。

I think this is a great question because if you just look at it, it's like, yeah.

显然，如果你去买货币市场基金或者某种国库券产品，风险确实更低一些。

Like, you know, obviously, like, if you go into a money market fund or, you know, some treasury bill product, it's it's a it's a lower risk.

这一点我不会否认。

I I would not, say otherwise.

那真正关键的区别在哪里呢？

What is the important differentiating factor?

不是收益率。

It's not the yield.

而是链上环境的流动性。

It's the liquidity with the on chain environment.

所以我们确实看到用户进入Spark储蓄。

So we do see users coming into Spark savings.

即使在熊市期间，USDS的资产负债表也在增长。

USDS balance sheet has been growing, even during the bear market.

现在已经超过100亿美元了。

It's up to past 10,000,000,000 now.

而且用户们……

And where the users...

有很多用户特别需要USDC和USDT的高流动性。

There are a number of users that need a high liquidity with USDC and USDT in particular.

所以这就是我们看到Spark储蓄这样的产品有很强市场契合度的地方，是的，它基本上能产生收益，但它有很多流动性。

So this is where we see strong product market fit with something like Spark savings, where, yes, it's generating basically a so for yield, but it has a lot of the liquidity.

USDS是链上最大的USDC持有者之一，现在Sky持有的USDC超过40亿美元，可以立即兑换成USDS。

USDS is one of the largest holders of USDC on chain and now over like 4,000,000,000 in USDC that Sky holds that can be immediately swapped for USDS.

而这种高流动性带来了很多好处，比如基金可能想要，用USDT保持流动性以便执行某些交易策略，或者有一些大型机构，它们自己有USDT或USDC的负债，需要极高的流动性，比如能在瞬间兑换数亿美元。

And so this high liquidity provides a lot of benefit for, you know, maybe funds want to be, there's value in being liquid with USDT for doing some trading strategy, or there is, some, like, major institution that has their own liabilities in USDT or USDC, and they need to be extremely liquid, like able to swap hundreds of millions in a moment's notice.

确实，这就是为什么像Spark Savings这样的产品在市场上是为数不多可用的。

And really, this is where something like Spark Savings is one of the few products in the market that's available.

所以你真的需要这样想：你是在链上世界，还是在传统金融领域？

And so really you need to think about it like, are you in on chain land or are you in TradFi?

如果你在传统金融领域，你有货币市场基金带来的高流动性，所以你会用那个。

And if you're in TradFi, you have high liquidity with money market fund, so you'll use that.

但如果你在链上，传统金融和链上去中心化金融之间是有差距的。

But if you're on chain, there is a gap between TradFi and DeFi on chain finance.

所以这就是Spark Savings作为一个有吸引力的产品所在之处。

And so this is where Spark Savings sits as a as a compelling product.

好的。

Okay.

有意思。

Interesting.

我觉得这很有道理。

I I think that makes a lot of sense.

我想问问你关于这些正在上链的资产类别，以及这可能会如何改变你的业务。

I wanna ask you about the the asset classes that are moving on chain and how this potentially changes your business.

因为Sutrini指出，代币化的国债目前大约是代币化股票的三倍半规模，而代币化股票才是所有头条新闻的主角。

Because Sutrini pointed out that tokenized treasuries are about three and a half times bigger than tokenized stocks right now, and tokenized stocks are the ones that are getting all of the headlines.

我很好奇你对此的看法。

And I'm curious your thoughts on this.

比如说，你的重心更多是在这一大块代币化国债，以及它的增长上吗？

Like, is your focus more on the the huge amount of tokenized treasuries and and that growing?

还是你对逐渐上链的代币化股权更感兴趣？

Are you more interested in tokenized equities as they start to come on chain?

Spark的机会在哪里？

What's the opportunity for Spark?

你的重点是什么？

What's your focus?

跟我说说这些不同资产类别开始上链的情况吧。

Tell me about that as as these different asset classes starting to come on chain.

所以推动代币化国债大幅增长的原因在于，谁在大量购买这些资产？

So the reason that's driving a lot of the growth of tokenized treasury is who who are the biggest buyers of these?

答案是那些能产生收益的稳定币，比如 Sky。

And it is, yield bearing stablecoins such as Sky.

Sky 持有大量的国库券……

So Sky is a large holder of, treasury bills on...

作为其储备资产的一部分，用来获取收益。

As as part of its backing assets to generate yield.

从用户的角度来看，我们面临的一个问题，再说一遍，就是流动性问题。

One of the issues with it, for us from a user perspective is, again, this liquidity issue.

如果产品打包后能让你完全用 USDC 保持高流动性，同时还能享受到国债收益率，那这就是一个非常有吸引力的产品。

If it's packaged up where you're fully liquid with, USDC, for example, but you can still earn the treasury bill rate, this is a very compelling product.

而在后端，那些能在流动性和收益之间取得平衡、带收益的稳定币，能够结合更成熟的稳定币，在保持高流动性的同时提供收益。

And then on the back end, these yield bearing stablecoins that balance between liquidity and yield can provide this yield with well maintaining high liquidity with the more established stablecoins.

这正是产品与市场高度契合的地方。

This is where the strong product market fit is.

所以回到根本，这一切背后的驱动力是什么？还是稳定币的采用。

So where, and again, I'll go back to where, what is the driver behind everything and it's stablecoin adoption.

所以很自然地，像国库券这样的美元计价产品，以及我认为AAA级公司债也是一个很好的例子——它是投资级产品，但以美元计价，对美元稳定。

And so it's only natural that USD denominated products such as treasury bills, and I think AAA corporate debt is another good example of where you have an investment grade product, but it's USD denominated, it's stable against USD.

所以稳定币的增长带来了很多后端增长。

And so you get a lot of backend growth from stablecoin growth.

现在我们正在进入下一个阶段，也就是更多资产上链。

Now where we're entering is the next phase, which is more assets coming on chain.

而推动这一趋势的是廉价流动性的获取和大量过剩流动性，稳定币就是这种情况。

And what is driving that is access to cheap liquidity, lots of excess liquidity, which is the case for stablecoins.

虽然熊市和黑客攻击使得过剩流动性略有减少，但在Sky协议中仍然存在大量过剩流动性。

There's a large amount of excess liquidity, a little bit less so since the bear market and the hacks going on, but there still is an excess of liquidity within the Sky protocol.

因此，能够发放贷款，尤其是抵押股权或代币化股权来获取廉价贷款，是下一个阶段。

And so being able to issue loans, cheap loans against equity, tokenized equities is sort of the next stage.

这就像是一步步把资产链上化的过程，而且需要随着借款需求的出现而发展。

And it's just like this process of bringing things on chain one piece at a time and things need to grow with where there's the demand side for the borrowers.

这得益于链上全球竞争性市场带来的更低利率。

And that is being driven by cheaper rates being made available due to global competitive markets on chain.

而且，是的，随着稳定币的增长，这又回到了稳定币的增长上。

And with the yeah, with the stablecoin growth side, which is, yeah, it it it comes back to stablecoin growth with that.

好的。

Okay.

虽然可能要让你重复一遍，但我……

At the risk of having you repeat yourself, I...

我想更深入地理解这个观点，因为我还没听别人提出过这种关联。

I'd like to understand this idea a little bit more because I haven't heard anyone else make this connection before.

你最近在Token 2049上做过一个演讲，你说代币化股票和其他资产会跟随上链。

You gave a presentation at token twenty forty nine recently, and you said that tokenized stocks and other assets will follow on chain.

一旦链上借贷变得更便宜，为什么这会成为……

Once borrowing gets cheaper on chain, why is that such the...

这么关键的一个瓶颈？

Such a key bottleneck here?

还有……

And...

因为其他人没这么说过。

Because I haven't heard anyone else say that.

给我解释一下这个瓶颈，以及为什么你认为这是把大量资产带上链的最大障碍。

Explain that bottleneck to me and why you think that's the big hurdle to get over to bring a lot of these assets on chain.

如果你看看股票，大多数人的股票在券商账户里，可以在那里借入资金。

So if you look at, if you have stocks, most people have stocks in their brokerage and they can borrow against them there.

但实际上，这个有相当高的保证金，比如在盈透证券之类的平台。

So really, but there are decently sized margins attached to that, say, on like interactive brokers or something.

所以要最终推动这个的就是竞争。

So what needs to ultimately drive this is competition.

也就是争取更优惠的利率。

So a race for better rates.

而这正是区块链和加密货币带来的巨大解锁：不是少数几家能收取高边际利润的公司，而是你在DeFi中面对一个全球市场进行竞争。

And this is really the big unlock that blockchain and crypto provide is that instead of having, like, you know, a handful of companies that are, you know, can charge high margins, you now have a global market you're competing on in DeFi.

比如说，在Morpho上有个孤立的市场，现在对资金提供方和借款方都开放了，而且可以包装得很好，就像Robinhood和Coinbase那样，他们用自己的消费级应用，用友好的界面把这种服务提供给用户。

So if you have, say, some isolated market in Morpho, this is now opened up to people on the LP side, on the borrowing side, and it can be, made into a nice wrapper, like such as, the case in like Robinhood and Coinbase, where they use their own, consumer apps to expose this to their users in a nice interface.

但最终，利率才是让人们认真对待并真正把资金转移过来的关键。

But then the rates are ultimately gonna be what makes people take this seriously and actually move their capital over.

他们需要得到更好的条件。

They need to be getting a better deal.

他们不会为了DeFi的理想主义而这么做。

They're not gonna be doing it for the idealism of DeFi.

所以这就是我看到的未来发展方向。

So this is really like how I see this playing out.

对，我觉得我们才刚刚起步。

Yeah, I think we're just at the beginning stages.

我预计明年初稳定币会有很大的增长。

Like I foresee like a lot of growth in stablecoins at the beginning of next year.

然后，这个全球竞争市场带来的低利率，才是真正吸引人们上链借款，比如代币化股票这类资产。

And so then the the cheap the cheap rates that are available because of this global market, global competitive market is really what's gonna drive people on chain on the borrowing side for, something like tokenized equities.

好的。

Okay.

所以要打造更好的产品，提供更优惠的方案。

So So build a better product, offer a better deal.

这样更有吸引力。

It's more attractive.

资金自然就跟着来了。

The capital follows.

我觉得有道理。

Makes sense to me.

还有件事我听到很多人提过，Suttrini也这么认为，就是AI代理需要七乘二十四小时地移动资金，这最终会打破壁垒，可以说，然后把所有这些资本引入链上。

Another thing that I've heard a lot of people saying, and Suttrini argues this too, is that AI agents are gonna need to move money twenty four seven, and that is what's finally gonna break the wall, so to speak, and bring all this capital on chain.

我……

I...

我也听你提过这个观点。

I've heard you say this too.

你觉得这离实现还有多远？现在AI代理、稳定币和DeFi这些方面的应用情况怎么样？

How far away in the future is that in your mind, and and what does that look like right now in terms of adoption of AI agents of stablecoins and and things like like DeFi?

这确实是个很有意思的事情。

That's it's a very interesting thing.

比如说，现在大多数人，我觉得AI其实还没有真正...

Like now we're, you know, everyday people like, I I think this AI hasn't really...

我们好像处在科技泡沫里，所以我们能看到所有的采用情况。

We're in like a tech bubble, so we we see all the adoption.

我们在公司里广泛使用它，但我觉得普通人才刚刚开始接触AI。

I mean, we're using it like extensively within our company, but I think the average person is still just barely starting with AI.

但现在你可以让你的代理说，这是我的账户，帮我优化。

But now you can ask your agent, say, like, you know, here's my accounts, optimize them for me.

我怎么才能...

How can I be?

这是一个非常强的个人驱动力，比如，让我赚更多的钱。

This is a very strong driver of the individual that be like, make give me more money.

所以最终呢，这会打破银行业里的一些障碍。

So ultimately like this, this will just break the break down some of these frictions that we've had within the banking.

而且说实话，这在某种程度上甚至是在给银行系统做补充，这种摩擦就是用户会……

And actually, would say that it's even topping up the banking system to a certain degree is, just this friction where users will...

人们把钱放在活期账户里，利息是零。

People just sit their money in a checking account that pays zero.

他们承受着银行挤兑之类的风险，却没有得到任何回报。

You know, they're taking on the risk of of the bank runs and stuff like that, but they're not being paid anything for it.

实际上，他们被银行系统占了便宜。

Really, they're being taken advantage of by the banking system.

所以，拥有这样一个高度互联的区块链环境，让资金的流动像和AI助手对话一样简单，比如问“我该怎么做？”

And so having this hyper connected blockchain environment where, you know, movement is as easy as talking to your AI agent, what, you know, what should I be doing?

这是我的风险偏好。

Here's my risk profile.

我们会打破许多这样的壁垒。

We'll be breaking down a lot of these barriers.

最终，我觉得这是一件好事。

And ultimately, I think this is a good thing.

我认为传统银行系统实际上是在占人们的便宜，这就像是对那些不善于理财的人征收的一种税。

I think the, you know, the traditional banking system taking advantage people effectively, it's like a tax on people who are not as nimble with their money.

这对经济来说是不利的。

And this is like, this is bad for the economy.

我认为钱应该被充分赋予权力，每个人都应该尽可能多地掌控自己的资产，做自己想做的事情。

Think money should be like fully empowered, like the individual should be empowered as much as possible to do with their assets what they wanna do.

我真心相信我们会告别那个基于障碍、试图捕获消费者的世界。

And I really truly believe we're gonna move away from this world where it's predicated on frictions basically and trying to capture consumers.

我认为这会是一个好得多的世界。

And I I think this is a much, much better world to live in.

一位多次上过我节目的分析师Jordy Visser最近在播客中说，摩擦现在就是机会。

An analyst who I've had on this channel several times, Jordy Visser, recently said on a podcast that friction is the opportunity now.

就像亚马逊，你说你的利润空间就是我的机会。

It's like Amazon, you say your margin is my opportunity.

也就是说，现在加密货币来抢的就是这个机会。

The friction is now the opportunity that the crypto is coming for us.

这听起来真是让人振奋。

That's really encouraging to hear.

我很期待看到这怎么发展。

I'm excited to see how that plays out.

我知道现在还早，但人工智能代理在改变一切，这种效率提升，真的太让人兴奋了。

I know it's early days, but the AI agents changing things, the the efficiency, this is gonna be really exciting.

好。

Okay.

我想问你一个问题，因为很多人都看过DeFi这片天地，觉得这里显然有巨大的机会。

I wanna ask you a question about this just because a lot of people have have looked at this landscape of DeFi and said there's clearly a huge opportunity here.

但银行可能会自己开发类似的产品，而不是接入我们已经建好的DeFi系统。

But banks are gonna just build their own versions of these products as opposed to plugging into DeFi that we've already built.

苏特里尼在他的论文里说，他认为银行不会自己开发，而是会接入DeFi，但实际上很多银行还在自己搞东西，比如自己的稳定币、自己的链之类的。

Sutrini, in his paper, says that he thinks banks aren't gonna build, that they are gonna plug into DeFi, and yet lot of banks are still kind of building their own things, their own stablecoins, their own chains, things like that.

你觉得这会怎么发展？

How do you see this playing out?

你觉得我们会进入一个传统大机构自己开发这些产品并保留所有权的世界，还是最终资金会流向公共基础设施和现有的DeFi项目？

Do you think we're gonna get into a world where the legacy incumbent players build their own versions of these things and keep ownership of them, or do you think eventually that capital does come to public infrastructure and existing DeFi projects?

你心里是怎么想的？

What does that look like in your mind?

我觉得会是

I think it's gonna be a

各种因素的结合，我看到的是……

mix of things where I see...

我我认为对这些来说很有意义。

I I think it makes a lot of sense for these.

比如，我的看法是，这有点像分销渠道。

Like, how I view it is there's sort of the distribution channel.

所以这可以是交易所、金融科技，等等。

And so this can be exchange fintech, whatever.

比如，像你有Robinhood，Robinhood Jane，你有Coinbase的Base链，你有Stripe的Tempo。

So for example, like you have Robinhood, Robinhood Jane, you have Coinbase base chain, you have a Stripe tempo.

我觉得这种模式会一直存在，就是链基本上就是分销渠道的延伸，不管这个渠道是什么。

I think this pattern will will remain where you have the chain that is essentially an extension of the distribution channel, whatever that may be.

但是呢，我觉得流动性还是会继续集中在——我特别指以太坊——也许还有Solana，但就是说，这些公有链上，我真的看到了集中化的趋势，因为，怎么说呢，流动性就是一切。

But, the liquidity, I believe, is going to continue to consolidate on, I would say Ethereum specifically, maybe Solana, but like, yeah, these public block chains, I do see like a consolidation because like, again, like liquidity is the whole thing.

如果你有个竞争对手，你是不会用竞争对手的链的。

And so if you have a competitor that like you're not going to use your competitors chain.

所以，大家不管愿不愿意，都会在一个地方集中，建立网络效应，那个地方就是中立的公共基础设施。

And so where is the place that everybody's going to like just consolidate and build network effects around whether they want to or not is gonna be public infrastructure that's neutral.

所以我觉得我们还处在早期阶段，大家都在尝试，也许他们能成功。

And so I think we're still early stages, so everybody's trying to take a crack at this and maybe they're successful.

我们对这个最终会怎么发展持比较开放的态度。

We're fairly agnostic as to how how how this all ends up.

我们想要支持每个人。

We wanna support everybody.

但我看到的情况是，以太坊目前是RWA的领头羊。

But how I see it kind of, playing out is, Ethereum is the RWA, lead right now.

而且由于网络效应，这种效应往往会不断放大。

And just due to network effects, that that effect just tends to compound.

这里很安全，Sam。

This is a safe place, Sam.

你……你……

You you...

在这里说以太坊完全没问题。

It's okay to say Ethereum here.

我们都可以说以太坊。

We we can all say Ethereum.

这就是为什么。

It's why.

我也很看好它。

I'm I'm bullish too.

但你说的很有道理，我也觉得那些引力很快就会对这部分资金起作用。

But that makes a lot of sense, and I I think that those those gravitational pulls will be effective for that capital at some point soon too.

你和很多大型机构谈过关于上链的事情。

You have been talking to a lot of these major institutions about coming on chain.

那些对话是什么样的？

What are those conversations like?

你有没有看到，比如，市场的某些特定领域，对进入这个机会更兴奋，而其他人则更犹豫？

Have you seen, like, any particular sections of the market, like, more excited to to come in into this opportunity, other people being more hesitant?

2026年这些对话进行到了哪里？目前的情况怎么样？

Where have those conversations been in 2026, And what's that been like at the at the moment?

我们与机构的互动主要是通过我们的流动性配置服务。

Our interaction with institutions is is primarily through our liquidity allocation service.

这个我之前也提到过。

So this I kind of was mentioning this before.

我们会用我们自己的资产负债表，也就是USDS的资产负债表，在Uniswap上做市，我们会部署到Sparkline、Morpho，我们也可以上线这些新的稳定币，并进行我们自身库存的互换。

We will do market making with our own balance sheet, with the USDS balance sheet through in Uniswap, we will deploy into Sparkline, Morpho, we can onboard these new stablecoins and do swaps of our own inventory as well.

所以我们在这里看到了非常强的产品市场契合度。

So we see extremely strong product market fit here.

如果你是新的发行方，发行稳定币其实是容易的部分。

If you're, a new issuer, issuing a stablecoin is the easy part.

这点并不难。

That's that's not difficult.

围绕这个稳定币建立起网络效应才是更困难的部分。

Building sort of the network effects around that stablecoin is is the more difficult part.

而我们可以在这方面提供帮助。

And we we, we're able to help out with this.

因为，是的，可能我有点重复了，但这些机构对他们来说，这里是蛮荒西部。

Because, yeah, and maybe I'm repeating myself a bit, but these institutions, this is the Wild West to them.

他们不知道发生了什么。

They don't know what's going on.

而我们是行业专家。

And we are industry experts.