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我们认为，随着美国市场的开放，未来五年的竞争会激烈十倍。
We think it's 10 x more competitive over the next five years as The US markets open up.
所以我们觉得，竞争对手会远不止Hyperliquid一家。
So we think we'll be competing with a lot more people than just Hyperliquid.
《清晰法案》已经失败了。
The Clarity Act has failed.
美国证券交易委员会和商品期货交易委员会正在争相为数字资产行业制定监管规则，大家都在猜测，一旦闸门打开，谁会在永续合约大战中胜出。
The SEC and CFTC are rushing to roll out regulatory clarity for the digital asset industry, and everyone is wondering who is going to win the Perps Wars once they open the floodgates.
而最重要的是，我们需要了解这一切的哪些方面？
And most importantly, what do we need to know about all of this?
大家好，欢迎收听《Milk Road Crypto》节目。这个节目知道，当你的项目自三月份以来涨幅超过500%时，人们会有很多问题要问。
Hello, and welcome to Milk Road Crypto, the show that knows that when your project is up more than 500% since March, people are gonna ask a lot of questions.
我是主持人约翰·吉伦，我在这里就是来提问的。
I'm your host, John Gillen, and I'm here to ask questions.
今天是9月23日，星期三。今天我们邀请到了Trevor King，他是Lighter的投资者关系和增长负责人。Lighter是一个基于以太坊的零费用、ZK驱动的永续合约交易所。
Today is Wednesday, September 23, and today we are joined by Trevor King, who is the head of investor relations and growth at Lighter, the zero fee ZK powered perpetual futures exchange built on Ethereum.
我们来看看这意味着什么，以及为什么它如此看涨。
We're gonna find out what that means and why it's so bullish.
如果你觉得不错，记得点赞和订阅。
If that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe.
把这期节目分享给会喜欢它的朋友吧。
Share this episode with somebody who's going to enjoy it.
提醒一下，今天的播客是免费的，这要感谢我们的优秀合作伙伴Nexo，这个数字资产平台让你可以一站式交易、赚取和借贷。
As a reminder, today's podcast is free, and that would not be possible without our wonderful partners at Nexo, the digital asset platform that lets you trade, earn, and borrow all in one place.
所以请留意节目后面关于他们的更多信息。
So keep an ear out for more information on them later in the episode.
但现在，欢迎来到Milk Road Crypto。
But for now, welcome to Milk Road crypto.
Trevor King，你好
Trevor King, how
吗？
are you?
挺好的。
Good.
这开场白可真够长的，兄弟。
That was a mouthful of an intro, man.
干得漂亮。
Well done.
我越来越擅长这个了。
I'm getting better at these.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
Trevor，我们在纽约市碰了面，就Lighter聊了一会儿。
Trevor, we crossed paths here in New York City and got to have a quick conversation about Lighter.
你刚才说的话里，有一点让我印象很深，就是你在加入Lighter之前，就已经对它非常投入了，而且你离开Delphi来到Lighter，是因为你说它是一家“划时代的公司”。
And something that jumped out to me from what you said was that you were already pretty full ported into Lighter before you started working there, and you left Delphi to come to Lighter because you said it was, quote, a generational company.
跟我聊聊你对这个相对较小的项目的信心吧，到底是什么让你对Lighter这么兴奋？
Talk to me about your conviction in this relatively small project and and what got you so excited about Lighter?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
我的意思是，可能得先交代一下背景，过去两三年里，我基本上只专注于永续合约。
I mean, maybe maybe some background is for the the prior two to three years, I'd focus solely on on Perps for the most part.
所以我和这个团队非常熟。
And so I've gotten to know the the team really well.
而且我认为，在加密货币领域，永续合约是除了稳定币之外增长最快的垂直领域。
And I believe Perps was the fastest growing vertical in crypto outside of stablecoins.
现在我觉得它比稳定币增长得还快。
And now I would argue it's growing faster than stablecoins.
所以如果从更广泛的技术领域来看，我认为它是除了AI之外增长第二快的垂直领域，而AI也包括机器人技术。
And so if I look at tech more broadly, I think it's the second fastest growing vertical in tech outside of AI, and AI include robotics.
所以我就想，好吧。
So I'm like, okay.
我真的很想深入做Perps。
I really wanna lean into Perps.
我觉得这是我比较有优势的地方。
This is a place I feel like I have edge.
我在加密货币圈子里也算有些人脉。
I have somewhat of a network in in crypto.
AI这块我不擅长。
I don't own AI.
我在那里没什么优势。
I have no edge there.
那就发挥我的优势吧。
Let me lean into the edge I have.
所以我花了很多时间和Perps领域的各个团队交流，而Lighter一直都很突出。
And so I spent a lot of time speaking with various teams in the Perps space, and Lighter's kind of always stood out.
我记得在迈阿密这里见过他们。
I remember meeting them here in here in Miami.
我现在就住在这里。
That's where I'm based now.
我记得十八个月前见过他们，当时印象非常深刻，所以一直密切关注他们。
I remember meeting them eighteen months ago and was very impressed, so kept kept close tabs on them.
然后在接下来的几个月和几个季度里，我和他们相处的时间越来越多，为我的个人投资组合评估他们，也为Delphi那边做了一些工作，和团队关系变得非常密切。
And then over the over the months and quarters of spending more time with them, underwriting them for my personal portfolio, doing some work for Delphi on that side as well, just getting really close to the team.
我记得在他们的代币生成事件之前，我其实有些批评意见，我觉得估值可能有点过高了。
And I remember actually being somewhat critical going into to their TGE, and I thought, you know, valuations might have been a little bit lofty.
实际上，我觉得估值可能还算合理，但我认为那些指标可能有点虚高。
Actually, I thought valuations were actually probably pretty fair, but I thought the the metrics were probably a bit overinflated.
我觉得任何时候看到激励措施，打折看待那些交易量是合理的。
And I think anytime you see incentives, think it's safe to, like, discount some of that volume.
至于你想怎么打折，对我来说，这取决于你自己。
And how you wanna discount that is up to you for me.
一般来说，我会把那个交易量打个六到八折。
I generally speaking said somewhere between 6080%, would discount the volume there.
所以我觉得你在TGE之后也看到了这种情况。
So I think you kind of saw that post TGE.
然后我记得在那之后和团队相处的时间更多了，也跟他们的顾问聊得更多，他们定价也挺合理的。
And then I remember spending more time with the team after that and kind of just spending more time with them, their advisors, well priced as well.
我记得有一次去他们办公室，那时候代币在大概六周内跌了70%。
And I remember coming to the office when the token was down 70% in a matter of whatever six weeks it was.
团队还是特别专注。
The team was like incredibly locked in.
很多时候你去拜访团队，代币在几周内跌了60%、70%、80%。
Lot of times when you come visit teams and the token's down sixty, seventy, 80% in a few weeks.
士气会非常低落。
Like morale is really low.
这里的士气确实不高，但通常人们已经在找退路了。
Morale was definitely low here, but usually had people kind of almost looking for the exit.
但完全没有这种情况。
And there was none of that.
没有人打开简历，电脑上也没有。
There was no no one had resumes open on their commuter.
大家都非常专注。
Like everyone was very much so locked in.
我们打造的东西真的很了不起，我们只是意识到需要以更好的方式进入市场。
What we built is truly incredible, and we just we realized what we need to do to kind of, like, come to market in a better way.
所以我看到他们真的很投入。
And so I saw them really lean in.
那是我个人真正开始投入很多筹码的时候。
That's that's when I personally really started putting a lot of my chips on the table.
后来，我有机会加入他们，从那以后一直是一段不可思议的时光。
And then later on, got the opportunity to join them, and it's it's been an incredible time ever since.
但我确实认为它有潜力成为一家具有划时代意义的公司。
But I do think it has the potential to be a generational company.
很多初创公司都会失败，不管是加密货币、科技还是餐饮行业，都会失败。
A lot of startups fail, both in crypto and tech and wherever, restaurant businesses, whatever, they they fail.
但我认为这家公司成功的几率很大。
But this is one I think has a great chance of succeeding.
如果我们成功了，我觉得我们会成为家喻户晓的名字。
And if we succeed, I think we'll be a household name.
好的。
Okay.
那我们先多聊聊技术细节，再谈成功的故事吧。
Well, let's talk a little bit more about some of the technicals here before we talk into that success story.
Lighter是零手续费的。
Lighter is zero fees.
它由ZK技术驱动。
It's ZK powered.
就是零知识技术。
It's zero knowledge technology.
它直接汇总到以太坊。
It rolls up right to Ethereum.
跟我说说，这实际上给用户带来了什么他们该关心的好处，因为大多数人其实不太在乎技术本身。
Talk to me about what this actually unlocks for users that they should care about because most people don't really care about the tech.
他们在乎的是速度和低成本。
They care about speed and low cost.
Lighter 采用的这个技术方案，是不是给它带来了什么优势？
Is there an advantage that Lighter gets from this technology solution they've applied here?
我们可以把交易所想象成有三方参与。
So we can think of, like, an exchange having, like, three parties.
一方是交易所本身。
You have the exchange itself.
一方是做市商，然后还有一方，你知道，就是普通的自主交易者。
You have the market makers, and then you have, you know, call them normal discretionary traders.
其中有些也可能是系统化交易。
And some of these can be systematic as well.
这些包括散户、专业用户、对冲基金、交易所、做市商等等。
This is retail, prosumer, hedge funds, the exchange, market makers, things like this.
交易所得同时满足这三方的需求。
You kinda have to like exchange has to satisfy all three parties.
一般来说，交易所会对散户和做市商都收费。
Generally speaking, you you see an exchange charge both retail and market makers.
我们决定对散户实行零费率。
We decided we we wanted to charge retail zero fees.
我们认为这在吸引合作伙伴和扩大分销方面是个竞争优势，尤其是在美国。
We think that's a competitive edge when it comes to getting partners and growing our distribution, especially here in The US.
你可以看看2010年代，特别是2015年到2020年间的券商和交易所，零费率在那时候真的火起来了。
Think you can look at brokerages and exchanges in the twenty tens, 2015, really through 2020, and you saw zero fees really take off there.
我们觉得随着时间推移，永续合约也会出现类似的情况，尤其是随着美国市场的开放。
I think we we think something similar happens with Perps over time, especially as The US market opens up.
所以我们对散户零费率，而能做到这一点是因为我们给做市商提供了延迟优势。
And so we we charge retail zero fees, and we're able to do this because we we give latency advantages to market makers.
很多人想说这就像是订单流付费。
A lot of people wanna say say this is like payment for order flow.
其实不完全一样。
It's not quite.
嗯……
Pffff.
看起来像，闻起来也像，但其实不是，因为我们不是券商。
It looks and smells like it, it's not quite because we're not a broker.
所以我们技术上并没有提供那个订单流。
So we're not technically offering up that flow.
所以不是订单流付费。
So it's not Pffff.
但我们能同时满足这三方，因为做市商相对于散户确实有一些优势。
But so we're able to satisfy these three parties because market makers have somewhat of an advantage over over retail.
散户能获得最好的执行，第一是因为零手续费。
Retail gets the best execution possible because one, it's zero fees.
第二，做市商必须报出很紧的价差，因为他们没有最后看一眼的权利。
Two, market makers are having to quote tight because they don't get a last look.
所以他们报出非常紧的价差，来争取并获取零售客户这种良性的订单流。
And so they're quoting incredibly tight to bid and get this benign flow of retail.
而且我们仍然能让做市商赚钱。
And we still are profitable for market makers.
所以这三方都得到了满足。
So you have all three of these parties who are satisfied.
因此我们认为，这进入美国市场时对我们来说是一个很大的竞争优势。
And so we think this is very much a competitive edge for us going into The US markets.
在全球范围内更是如此，因为我们是很好的合作伙伴。
And more globally, more so as well because we're really good dance partners.
因为我们不收费，我们可以很好地分享经济利益，成为一些大型机构的理想合作伙伴。
Because we charge zero fees, we can we can share economics really well and be a good dance partner for some of these larger institutions.
我认为Robinhood就是一个很好的例子。
And I think Robinhood is a great example of that.
Telegram就是一个很好的例子。
Telegram is a great example of that.
Monarch也是一个很好的例子。
Monarch is a great example of that.
这些目前都是我们最大的合作伙伴之一。
And those are, like, three of our largest partners today.
我想稍微停一下，提醒大家，加密货币牛市已经回来了。
Just wanna pause for a quick second to remind you all that the crypto bull market is back.
我一直在把资金投入到那些我认为在这轮牛市中会表现很好的山寨币上。
I have been deploying capital into altcoins that I think are gonna do very well, this bull market.
其中一些从我买入到现在已经涨了两倍多了。
Some of them are already up over two x from where I entered.
所以，如果你想看看我的投资组合里有什么，我的观察列表是什么，并且能在Discord上随时问我问题，现在就加入Milk Road PRO吧。
So if you wanna see what's in my portfolio, what's on my watch list, and have access to me in Discord to ask questions twenty four hours a day, join Milk Road PRO now.
链接在描述里。
The link is in the description.
只要一美元。
It's just a dollar.
到时候见。
I'll see you there.
好，我们来聊聊这些合作吧。
Well, let's talk a little bit about some of these partnerships.
你一直把Lighter的合作伙伴模式称为“白手套”关系，就是你们会派工程师去和合作伙伴一起搭建。
You've always referred to Lighter's model for partners as a white glove relationship where you actually deploy engineers to work with the partner on setting that up.
现在，合作是不是Lighter增长的主要策略？
Is partnerships the main strategy for growing Lighter at this point?
在这个过程中，你是怎么考虑寻找新的合作伙伴的？
And and how do you think about finding new dance partners as you as you go about this process?
我觉得这种白手套的方式，加上通过合作扩大分销，确实是我们增长和扩大市场份额、提升市场主导地位的重要部分，我们也在积极投入。
I think this white glove approach and growing distribution with partners is definitely a big piece for us in growing and growing overall market share, growing our market share, market dominance, and things like that is definitely something we're we're leaning into.
同时我们也关注多个地区，虽然大家都以为我们只做美国市场。
And then we focus on multiple geographies, like everyone assumes us like, associates us with The US.
是的，我们非常专注于美国市场，并且积极寻找美国的合作伙伴。
And yes, we are incredibly focused on US and getting US partners.
但我们在拉丁美洲也投入了大量时间。
But we also spend a lot of time in Latin America.
我们在亚洲也花了很多时间，努力在不同地区寻找合作伙伴。
We spend a lot of time in Asia as well trying to get partners in different places.
我们宣布了与Bitcub的合作，预计今年晚些时候上线，我们非常期待与他们合作。
We we announced a partnership with Bitcub, which which should go live later this year, and we're very excited to work with them.
他们是泰国最大的交易所。
They're the largest exchange in Thailand.
所以我们对这些合作也感到非常兴奋。
And so we're really excited for these partnerships as well.
是的，我们确实认为，与这些已经拥有庞大分销网络的伙伴合作，是扩大我们分销渠道的重要途径。
And, yes, we do think this is a a huge way to to grow our distribution is working with these partners who already have huge distribution.
比如说，就拿Robinhood来说吧。
I mean, take Robinhood for instance.
据说他们有2600万月活跃用户。
Believe they've got 26,000,000 monthly active users.
那可是很多用户啊。
That's that's a lot of users.
这比我们现在在加密货币领域的用户量多好几倍，所以我们对继续与各种合作伙伴合作、扩大我们的分销渠道感到非常兴奋。
That's many multiples of what we have in in crypto today, and so really excited to continue to work with various partners and grow our distribution.
与Robinhood的合作引起了广泛关注，也带来了大量交易量。
The partnership with Robinhood has gotten a lot of attention, a lot of volume.
我很好奇你对这次成功的看法，因为这不是Lighter本身。
I'm curious your your perspective on the success of this because it's not Lighter itself.
这是专门为Robinhood构建的一个Lighter实例。
It's an instance of Lighter that's built, you know, specifically for Robinhood.
这里的成功指标是什么？谁在这笔交易中获益更多？
What's the success metric there, and, you know, who's getting the better end of the deal?
Robinhood从Lighter那里得到了更好的条件吗？
Is Robinhood getting a better deal from Lighter?
你们是不是，对。
Are you guys, like yeah.
你心里是怎么想的？
How how does that break down in your mind?
到目前为止你怎么看？
What's your view on this so far?
我觉得这是一个非常互利的关系。
I think it's a very mutually beneficial relationship.
所以对于那些不了解的人，我们和Robinhood是五五分成。
And so just for those that don't know, we have a fifty fifty rev share with Robinhood on this.
所以我们拿50%的收入。
So we make 50% of the revenue.
我们拿50%的收入。
We make 50% of the revenue.
如果你在链上关注这个，对于那些链上侦探来说，所有的收入都会到我们这里。
If you're following this on chain, just for those on chain sleuths out there, all all the revenue will come to us.
我们仍然管理那个实例，然后我们实际上会把50%的收入分给他们指定的任何Robinhood钱包。
We still manage that instance, and then we'll actually be dishing out and giving 50% back to to whatever Robinhood wallet they want that to go to.
我们认为我们和他们的关系非常棒，我们也很期待未来继续探索这种合作的可能性。
And we think that's an incredible relationship that we've got with them, and we're we're excited to continue to explore what that looks like in the future.
现在，我觉得，像未平仓合约量、收入这些都在快速增长，我们对此非常兴奋。
And right now, I think, is open interest volume, revenue, and things like that, which are all growing at a rapid rate, and we're very excited for this.
我觉得Robinhood的实例现在在DeFi Lama上按未平仓合约量算可能已经排进前十了。
I think I think the Robinhood instance might be a top 10 by open interest now in DeFi Lama.
所以我们真的很高兴看到这样的成功，也希望它能继续增长。
So we're really excited to see that success and we wanna continue to see that grow.
RWA占了未平仓合约量的70%，所以我们看到那里有很多兴趣。
RWAs are 70% of that open interest and so we're seeing a lot of interest there.
其中很多是由Robinhood链上的一些可组合性方面驱动的。
And a lot of that is driven from some some composability aspects of being on Robinhood chains.
所以你已经看到像Long这样的人。
So you've seen people like long.
Xyz 在做永续合约的代币化，把那些合约代币化，然后做一些有趣的事情。
Xyz do tokenize of perpetual futures and tokenizing those and doing interesting stuff.
我们还有很多其他合作伙伴，他们很快也会推出类似的产品。
And we've got many other partners who will come to market in short order who are doing something similar.
所以我们真的很高兴看到业务这一块的增长，这部分业务我之前确实低估了。
And so we're really excited to see the growth on that side of the business, which isn't something like, that's the part of the business I definitely discounted.
自从我认识 Lighter 以来，我一直低估了这个可组合性的方面。
I have discounted for ever since I've known Lighter, this composability aspect.
我之前确实很低估，但过去两三个月看到它发展成这样，真的挺惊人的。
I very much have discounted, but it's been pretty amazing to see this play out over the last, call it, two to three months.
好的。
Okay.
所以这对各方来说都是积极的。
So it's been positive for all parties.
这就像你之前举的交易所的例子，Lighter 试图让所有利益相关者都受益。
It's just kinda like your your example with the the the exchanges and how Lighter is trying to be beneficial for all stakeholders.
看起来这也是你们的目标。
Seems like that's what you're aiming for here as well.
我之所以想从分销这个话题开始聊，是因为我听到你特别提到分销是Lighter战略的关键部分，用来挑战这个领域的巨头Hyperliquid。Hyperliquid的市值大约是你们的20倍，而且我觉得我们刚刚在未平仓合约上创了历史新高，大概180亿美元。
The reason why I wanted to start with this conversation on distribution is that I've heard you specifically name distribution as a key part of Lighter's strategy to go after the juggernaut of the space, which is Hyperliquid, which is, you know, 20 times or so bigger by market cap and has I think we're just crossed all time highs on open interest of around 18,000,000,000.
你觉得这是让Lighter与Hyperliquid竞争的关键战略举措吗？
Is this the essential strategic move you think to make Lighter compete with Hyperliquid?
而且为什么分销对于现在发展永续合约平台如此重要？
And and why is distribution so key for growing a Perps platform right now?
所以，我们想在美国扩大分销。
So, I mean, we wanna grow distribution in The US.
我们想在世界其他地方也扩大分销。
We wanna grow it in the rest of the world.
是的，大家都想把我们和Hyperliquid放在一起比较。
And, yes, everyone wants to kind of pin us against Hyperliquid.
我们认为他们是一个了不起的团队，非常能干，产品也很棒。
We think they're an incredible team, very competent, a great product.
我已经使用这个产品很多年了。
I've been using the product for many years.
但我们最终要面对的竞争对手远不止这些。
But we we are we're ultimately competing with a lot more than that.
我们认为随着美国市场的开放，永续合约领域的竞争会激烈一百倍，因为市场规模也扩大了一百倍。
We think as The US market opens up, the the perp landscape gets a 100 x more competitive because the TAM is a 100 x.
所以，虽然我觉得过去二十四个月里在加密货币圈待过的人会认为永续合约已经竞争非常激烈了，但你们确实看到了Hyperliquid的崛起，也看到了包括Lighter在内的许多其他项目在相似的时间线内跟进，这确实很激烈。
And so while I think a lot of people in crypto who've been around for the last twenty four months think perps have been incredibly competitive over the last twenty four months, Have you really saw the you saw really saw the emergence of Hyperliquid, and you've seen many others including Lighter come after in similar timelines and think that's really competitive.
我们认为未来五年随着美国市场的开放，竞争会激烈十倍。
We think it's 10 x more competitive over the next five years as The US markets open up.
所以我们认为我们的竞争对手远不止Hyperliquid。
So we think we'll be competing with a lot more people than just Hyperliquid.
但不管竞争对手是谁，都需要分销渠道，需要用户，需要合作伙伴。
But regardless of who you're competing with, need distribution, you need users, you need partners.
所以你可以拥有世界上最好的技术，我们觉得我们在这个领域可能确实有，但我们还需要分销渠道。
And so you can have the greatest tech in the world, which we we we think we think we might in this space, but we need the distribution.
所以我们非常兴奋，继续去争取合作伙伴。
And so we're very excited to continue to go after partners.
我们想把整个永续合约市场这块蛋糕做大。
We wanna grow the overall perp pie.
是的。
Yes.
我觉得在加密货币领域有很多唾手可得的机会，有很多团队我们可以开始合作，我们认为这非常好。
I think there's like a lot of, you know, low hanging fruits in crypto that in teams that we can start to work with, and we think that's fantastic.
我们想和这些团队合作。
And we wanna work with those teams.
但真正能把整个市场做大的，更多的是和美国这边的传统金融机构合作，因为美国仍然是全球资本市场中心，我们想和这些团队合作。
But what's gonna really grow the overall pie is more so working with traditional financial institutions here in The US because The US is still the capital markets of the world and we wanna work with these teams.
所以我们两个方向都想做。
And so like, we wanna do both.
我们想专注于加密货币原生用户，继续和他们合作。
We wanna focus on the crypto natives and continue to work with them.
我们认为他们是出色的合作伙伴，行动迅速，但我们也想花大量时间处理那些显而易见的大问题，也就是美国的金融机构。
We think they're incredible partners that move fast, but we also wanna spend a lot of time working on the elephants in the room that are very much so the the financial institutions here in The US.
所以，我们想扩大整个永续合约市场的规模。
So, And like, we wanna grow the overall per pie.
我们认为这个市场能增长一百倍，我们想在其中占据相当大的一部分。
We think it grows a 100 x from here, and we wanna we wanna own a a decent chunk of that.
好。
K.
我想多谈谈你眼中的总可寻址市场。
I wanna talk more about the total addressable market as you see it.
但首先，我觉得关于机构分销的讨论非常有趣，因为，你知道，我听说你说过永续合约是零售的理想产品，但机构分销的竞争正在加剧。
But first, I think this this conversation around institutional distribution is is a really fascinating one because, you know, I've heard you say that perpetuals are, like, an ideal product for retail, but the institutional distribution competition is heating up.
Kraken的母公司Payward和BitGo最近披露了与Hyperliquid的交易，以便让机构更容易访问Hyperliquid。
Payward, which is Kraken's parent company and BitGo, recently disclosed deals with Hyperliquid to make it easier for institutions to access Hyperliquid.
我很好奇你对Lighter需要采取哪些战略举措来在机构分销战中与Hyperliquid及其他竞争对手竞争的看法。
And I'm curious your thoughts on the strategic moves that Lighter needs to make to compete in that in in institutional distribution war with Hyperliquid and other competitors, obviously.
但是，你针对机构的具体策略是什么？
But, like, what's your strategy for institutions specifically?
我觉得这又回到了你第一个关于技术的问题，以及我如何解释我们能够提供零手续费。
I think this also comes back to your first question regarding the tech and how I kind of explained how we're able to offer zero fees.
零手续费让我们成为一个非常好的合作伙伴，因为我们可以很好地分享经济收益。
Zero fees makes us a really good dance partner because we can share economics really well.
所以，当你去跟机构推销时，如果你说，嘿，想不想接受一个，比如说，四到五个点的分成比例。
And so when you go to work if you wanna go pitch an institution and if if you say, hey, wanna take a, you know, let's just call it a four to five bit take rate.
然后你可以对超出部分收取任何费用。
And then you can kind of like charge anything over that.
我们会给你更低的费率。
We're gonna give you the shorter rate.
他们会嘲笑你，然后再也不理你了。
They're gonna laugh at you and never talk to you again.
所以你必须能够很好地分享经济收益。
And so you need to be able to share economics really well.
所以我们觉得我们在利益分配上做得很好。
And so we think we share economics really well.
所以当我们考虑进入市场时，首先，我们在华盛顿特区花了很多时间。
And so as we think about going going to market, one, we're we're spending a lot of time in DC.
我们和美国商品期货交易委员会（CFTC）有很多接触，努力获得在美国运营的许可。
We're spending a lot of time with the CFTC trying to get US licensing to operate here in The US.
而且我们还有这种经济上的优势，可以说，我们能够很好地分配利益，同时不影响我们的底线。
And we also have this economic advantage, if you will, to where we can share economics really really well without hurting our bottom line.
所以这有两方面。
And so there's twofold.
一方面是在华盛顿特区花大量时间，努力获得在美国合法运营的许可；另一方面是采取这种白手套式的服务方式，能够很好地分配利益，成为一个好的合作伙伴。
It's like spending a lot of time in DC, trying to get the right licenses to operate in The US legally, and then also having taking this white glove approach and being able to share economics and being a great dance partner.
好的。
Okay.
那我们来谈谈华盛顿特区最近的情况吧，因为那边最近挺热闹的。
Well, let's talk about what's been going on in DC because, things have been popping off.
SEC和CFTC一直都很明确，想要推出一些监管规定来适应加密货币领域的很多事情，但永续合约绝对是其中之一。
The SEC and the CFTC have been, you know, really clear about trying to roll out regulations to accommodate a lot of things in in crypto, but perpetuals are definitely one of them.
特朗普在白宫直接点名了Hyperliquid。
Trump said Hyperliquid by name in the White House.
我很好奇，你觉得他们对整个资产类别或者整个行业是采取了一种公平的态度，还是说他们其实更偏向Hyperliquid或者一些美国本土的机构？你在华盛顿待了那么久，怎么看这个监管格局的演变？
And I'm curious if you think that they are kind of taking an even handed approach to, like, the whole asset class or the industry overall, or do you think that, you know, they are tilted a little more in favor of a hyperliquid or of, like, some US native institutions and just kinda how you see this this regulatory landscape evolving as you've been spending a lot of time in Washington?
我可没想到特朗普会点名Hyperliquid，这完全出乎我的意料。
I didn't have Trump saying hyperliquid on my bingo card.
这一点是肯定的。
That's for sure.
但这真的太了不起了。
But it's it's incredible.
我觉得这对整个行业来说是一个巨大的胜利。
I mean, think it's a massive win for the overall industry.
这说明这件事不仅仅对CFTC和SEC重要，它已经引起了最高层决策者的关注。
It it shows that it's it's important to more than just the CFTC and SEC, but it it goes all the way up all the way to the top of the food chain of people who are interested in this.
而且，当然，这些动机背后肯定有不少资金支持。
And, yes, there's plenty of dollars behind that motives those motives, of course.
但我们非常欣慰地看到，CFTC 的工作效率非常高。
But we're we we we've been very encouraged with how fast the CFTC is willing to work.
他们的运作方式很像一家初创公司。
They operate very much like a startup.
可能有些人不太了解，一般来说，如果你向 CFTC 提交申请，他们有 180 天的时间来回复，要么同意，要么拒绝，或者说还需要更多时间。
And for those of you who don't know, generally speaking, if you were to submit an application with with the CFTC, you have a hundred and eighty day window, where they say yes, no, or hey, we need more time.
而且通常来说，在之前的政府任期内，很多时候你会等到第 179 天，他们都没什么动静，然后才说需要更多时间。
And generally speaking, in prior administrations, a lot of times, you would see you'd a hundred and seventy nine days with nothing from them, and then they say they need more time.
所以那真的很让人头疼。
And so it was it was it was frustrating.
但在这一届政府下，他们非常积极主动。
And with this administration, they are very proactive.
我们认为他们不会拖满 180 天才做出决定。
We don't think they wanna take the full hundred and eighty day window to come to a conclusion.
所以我们印象非常深刻。
And so we've been very impressed.
我们很喜欢和他们合作。
We enjoy working with them.
我们和CFTC关系很好。
We have great relationships with the CFTC.
对，是的。
And and I yes.
Clarity法案没有通过，我知道很多人都在问这件事。
Clarity didn't pass, and I I know a lot of people ask about this.
但Clarity，你知道，我们是支持它的，不过它没通过其实对我们的业务一点影响都没有。
But Clarity, you know, we we supported Clarity, but Clarity not passing doesn't really affect our business whatsoever.
我们的运营方式不会改变。
Our the way we operate as a business doesn't change.
我们认为SEC和CFTC会介入，为加密资产制定出很好的规则和监管。
And we think the SEC and CFTC will step in and make, make great rules and regulations around crypto assets.
嗯，我觉得这个领域的很多其他玩家也看到了同样的机会。
Well, I think a lot of, other players in the space see the same opportunity.
已经在美国本土提供受监管的永续合约了。
Already offers regulated perps onshore in The US.
不管好坏，围绕这件事有很多戏剧性，我们就不深入了。
For better or worse, there's a lot of drama around that, which we won't go into.
但Coinbase和Kraken也都在申请在美国本土直接提供永续合约。
But Coinbase and Kraken are both applying to offer perps as well onshore in The United States, directly here.
所以看起来永续合约领域会有很多竞争。
So it seems like we're just gonna see a lot of competition in the perpetual space.
Lighter在这里的生存策略是什么？
What's Lighter's strategy for survival here?
你觉得你们是想继续努力成为最好的合作伙伴吗？
Do you think you just wanna, you know, continue to try to be the best dance partner?
你们在拓展其他市场吗？
Are you expanding into other markets?
或者，或者，那边的看法是什么？
Or or just what's what's the view there?
成为最好的舞伴，这是我想要继续向投资者和零售商强调的。
Be the best dance partner is is is something I wanna continue to hit home with both investors and retailers.
就是说，我们想成为一个非常棒的舞伴。
Like, we wanna be an incredible dance partner.
我们拥有我们认为非常出色的技术。
We have what we think is incredible technology.
我们有一支非常优秀的工程团队，我们可以根据你的用户、你的客户的具体需求来构建和定制东西。
We have an incredible engineering team who we can we can build things and customize things specifically for for your users, for your clients.
对你和你的业务来说，什么是最佳用途？
What what is the best use for you and your business?
我们可以做到这一点，并且我们可以分享收益。
We can do this and we can share economics.
所以，这将会是一样的。
And so like, it's gonna be the same thing.
这其实是三个不同的问题。
It's been three different questions.
但答案是一样的，因为这对我们来说是个大事。
It's the same answer because this is like a big piece for us.
就是这种白手套式的服务。
It's it's this white glove approach.
就是做一个好的舞伴。
It's being a good dance partner.
就是拥有非常有才华和有竞争力的软件工程师。
It's having very talented and competitive software engineers.
我们不只是有一些随便写写代码的人。
We don't just have, like, vibe coders.
在Lighter，我们拥有世界上最顶尖的工程人才，我从来没有对哪个工程团队这么印象深刻过。
Like, we have some of the best engineering talent in the world here at Lighter, and I have never been more impressed by an engineering team.
我觉得我们在这一点上非常有竞争力，而且我认为这是我们一个巨大的竞争优势。
And I think we are incredibly competitive there, and and I think that's a huge competitive advantage for us.
好的。
Okay.
那我们先暂时把竞争策略放一放。
Well, let's let's let's just leave the the strategy on competition there for a moment.
但我确实想回到你如何看待总可寻址市场这个问题，因为很多人都在争论这个问题，无论是关于永续合约，还是整个加密货币领域。
But I do wanna come back to this question of the total addressable market as you see it because a lot of people debate this question as it relates to perpetuals, as it relates to crypto overall.
你不仅考虑永续合约，还特别针对Lighter，你们所有产品的总可寻址市场是多少？你又是如何思考从当前的位置走向那个目标的？
How do you go about thinking about, not just, you know, for perpetuals, but for Lighter specifically, what is the total addressable market for all of your products, and and how are you, like, thinking about getting from where you are today and towards that target?
我觉得你在过去六个月或八个月里已经看到这个趋势开始显现了。
I mean, I think you've seen this over the last six months or eight months really starting to play out.
比如，你看到大宗商品在去年年底和今年年初开始上涨，当时有投机热潮和动物精神，涉及黄金、白银、铜、铀。
Like, you've seen commodities pick up late last year, early this year, as there was speculative fervor in animal spirits and gold, silver, copper, uranium.
你能想到的都有。
You name it.
那里确实有动物精神。
There was animal spirits there.
现在你看到那个转向开始回落了，然后资金流入了股票市场。
And now you you saw that pivot kinda come down, you saw it go into equities.
现在股票方面，实际上就在两天前，我们创下了Lighter历史上最大的单日股票交易量。
And now equities, we actually just had our our largest equity per volume day ever in the history of Lighter two days ago.
所以我们对此持续的增长感到非常鼓舞。
And so we we are very encouraged by the continued growth there.
现在我相信我们每日交易量中大约有20%到30%来自RWA，这从收入角度和业务角度来看都是资产类别的多元化，作为投资者出身的我，真的很喜欢这一点。
And so now I believe it's just about 20% or 30% of our daily volume comes from RWAs, which is asset class diversification from a revenue standpoint, from a business standpoint, which I I really enjoy coming from the investor side.
这样与股票或加密货币的周期性相关性就降低了。
You've less cyclical correlation to to equities or to to crypto.
所以我对这一点一直感到很欣慰。
And so I've been very encouraged with that.
当考虑整体市场规模时，就像，好吧。
And when think about the TAM overall, it's like, okay.
加密货币有多大？
How big is crypto?
那股票市场还要大多少倍呢？
And how many more multiples bigger are equities?
再加上大宗商品，还有现在没人提到的外汇市场。
And you add in commodities, and then one no one's talking about right now is FX markets.
我们认为外汇市场也可能非常大。
We think FX markets could be quite quite quite big as well.
你知道，外汇通常来说不是利润率特别高的业务，但我们觉得那里有应用场景，因为这些市场有很多改进空间，我们认为我们可以介入并提供很大帮助。
You know, FX is generally speaking not a super high margin business, but we think there is a is a use case there because those are markets that have a lot of room for improvement, and we think we can step in and help there a lot.
所以当你这么想的时候，从市值和交易量的角度来看，这比加密货币市场要大50到100倍。
And so when you think about that, you know, it it comes out to be, you know, 50 to a 100 times larger than what it is in crypto, just from a market cap standpoint, from a volume standpoint.
所以我们非常期待股票、大宗商品、外汇等各种资产类别的扩展和增长。
And so we very much look forward to to the expansion and the growth of equities, commodities, FX, you name it, from various asset classes.
让第一版期权先运行起来。
Let the first iteration of options live.
然后，到今年年底，我们会推出一个完整的期权产品套件。
And then, you know, by end of the year, we'll have a kind of a a full options suite product.
所以到时候我们会有现货、永续合约、二元期权和定期期权。
And so then we'll have, you know, we'll have spot, perps, binaries, and and dated.
我们对此非常兴奋，因为我们认为那里也有巨大的增长空间。
And so we're very excited for that because we think that also we see huge huge fall growth there.
好的。
Okay.
这个问题涵盖了很多内容，但你提到了你对永续合约可寻址市场的看法。
So there's a lot in that question, but you talked about your your view of the addressable market for perps.
这正是我下一个问题，所以我知道你说的是期权，因为你们要进入期权和预测市场，正如你说的，我猜你们称之为二元期权。
And this was my next question, which is why I knew what you were talking about was options because you guys are going into options and prediction markets, which, as you said, I gather you all refer to as binaries.
就像，是或否，你知道，我们称之为预测市场，或者叫二元期权，不管用什么语言。
Like, yes, no, which is, you know, we call it a prediction market, call it binary, whatever language you use for it.
你们正在朝那个方向扩展。
You're expanding in that direction.
跟我说说投资者应该怎么理解这一点。
Talk to me about how investors should interpret this.
你们推出这些新产品，是为了把市场做大，还是说这算是一种变相承认，嘿，
Are you guys just trying to grow the pie by bringing out these new products, or is this sort of a tacit admission that, hey.
也许永续合约这块竞争太激烈了，我们得靠新产品来维持增长。
Maybe the Perps landscape is too competitive for us, and we need to bring new products to market to keep growing.
你在笑，但说真的，你们是怎么想的？
You're laughing, but, like, how how do you think about this?
你们的
What's what's
策略是什么？
the strategy?
我们不觉得竞争对我们来说太激烈。
We We don't think it's too competitive for us.
我们只是觉得这是业务的自然延伸，而且是非常互补的产品。
We just think this is a natural extension of our business, and it's a very complementary product.
而且随着时间推移，我们认为资产管理公司会进入链上。
And then over time, we think asset managers come on chain.
我们看到这些年来金库增长得非常成熟。
We see really sophisticated vault growth over the years.
如果你是传统金融领域的资产管理者，你有现货、期货、二元期权，就是传统的二元期权。
And if you're an asset manager in traditional finance, you have spot, you have futures, you have binaries, like traditional binaries.
现在大家都叫它们预测市场，但本质上就是二元期权。
Everyone calls them prediction markets now, but they're originally binaries.
然后你还有数据。
And then you have data.
这给了你很大的灵活性，而且非常明确。
This gives you a lot of flexibility and, a lot of explicity explicity.
那个词我说不好。
I can't say that word.
我真是没文化。
I'm illiterate.
你可以非常明确地表达你下注的方式。
You can be very explicit with the way in which you put on a bet.
所以你在那里有很多灵活性。
And so you have a ton of flexibility there.
所以期权、二元期权、期货和现货给了你很多创意，让你可以用不同的方式表达你的押注。
And so options and binaries, futures and spot gives you a ton of creativity in the way in which you express a bet.
所以我们认为这会有巨大的增长。
And so we think that's huge growth.
这不是因为我们觉得自己在永续合约上竞争不过。
It's not because we don't think we can compete in Perps.
事实上，我认为我们完全有能力在永续合约领域长期保持非常高的竞争力，并打造一个世代相传的公司，但我们认为期权是这个市场中一个很好的补充产品。
In fact, I think we are perfectly suited to compete at a very, very high level for many, many years and build a generational company in just Perps, but we think options is a very nice complementary product to have in this market.
我刚才说话有点结巴了。
I got tongue tied there.
抱歉。
I apologize.
没关系。
That's okay.
我们都很兴奋。
We're both excited.
现在是牛市。
It's a bull market.
我明白。
I understand.
你打算用这些产品服务市场的哪个部分？
What part of the market are you aiming to serve with some of these things?
比如，你觉得是不是有很多人想要这些产品，但就是接触不到？
Like, do you think that there are a lot of people who want these products who just can't get access to them?
你觉得他们是不是已经有类似的产品，而你能提供更好的版本？
Do you think that they already have access to products that you can just offer a better version of?
因为就像你说的，二元期权早就有了。
Because, like like you said, binaries have existed.
期权也早就有了。
Options have existed.
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你对此有什么想法，现在市场格局你怎么看？
What's your thought process on that, and how do you see the market landscape right now?
现在的市场格局，我觉得最近几周衍生品领域确实冒出了一个市场领导者。
The market landscape right now, think you've got derived in the last few weeks who's really emerged as kind of like the market leader.
有Paradox和Dime，由Paradigm孵化，是非常棒的期权平台。
You have Paradox and Dime, incubated by Paradigm, incredible options platform.
而且我觉得它们的产品确实不错。
And I think they're actually pretty good products.
我自己都用过。
Like, I've used them.
我觉得它们的产品很好。
I think they're good products.
我的职业生涯就是从交易期权开始的。
I started my career trading options.
我高中时就开始交易期权了，那时候很小，所以期权对我来说意义非凡，对我们团队很多人来说也是如此。
I started when I was when I was very young trading options in high school, and they they're near and dear to my heart, near and dear to many people on this team's heart.
而且我们认为它其实和永续合约是互补的产品。
And and we think it's really just a complementary product alongside Perps.
你知道，我们对期权整体的增长并没有一个固定的看法。
You know, I don't think we have a house view on on options growth overall.
我的意思是，你只要看看零日期权，再看看Robinhood上的增长。
Mean, you can just look at zero DTEs and look at the growth on Robinhood.
那真是相当惊人。
It's pretty incredible.
其中有多少是被永续合约蚕食的呢？
And how much of that is cannibalized by Perps?
你知道，我个人没有明确的观点，但我只是觉得它是和期权搭配的很好的互补产品。
You know, we we I don't have a I don't have a a personal view, but I just think it's a very complementary product to have alongside options.
而且我觉得现在市面上已经有一些很棒的产品了。
And I think I think there's great products, you know, out there today.
我觉得Drive就挺不错的。
I think Drive is pretty good.
我觉得Paradox也挺不错的。
I think Paradox is pretty good.
但我觉得我们会有一个非常有竞争力的产品。
But I think we'll have a highly competitive product.
而且我觉得我们会有非常强大的分销渠道，你可能会问，那边的目标受众是谁呢？
And I think we'll have incredible distribution, and you ask who who who's the target audience there.
在这里，肯定是专业消费者。
Here, it's it's definitely prosumers.
肯定是机构，也肯定是散户。
It's definitely institutions, and it's definitely, like, retail.
所以，这和交易Perps的人群是一样的，但这是完全不同的下注方式，而且非常互补。
So it's the same buckets that would trade perks, but it's a very different expression of a bet, and it's very complementary.
而且它可以作为现有Perps头寸的很好的对冲，反之亦然。
And it can be a great hedge to an existing per position or vice versa.
所以我们觉得这两者配合得非常好。
And so we we think these play very well hand in hand.
好的。
Okay.
所以这些产品是你的目标用户群体会想要的，而且你觉得你能在那里竞争。
So it's they're products that your target user segments are gonna want, and and you get think you can compete there.
所以从战略上讲，这完全说得通。
So that all makes sense strategically.
而且我觉得期权也比预测市场更容易交叉销售。
And I I think I think options too is, like, an easier cross sell than prediction markets.
你看Kalshi，看Polymarket，看看他们从预测市场到永续合约的交叉销售情况。
I mean, look at Kalshi, look at Polymarket, look at the cross sell they've had from prediction markets to Perps.
不是说那些不会成功。
Like, not that those aren't gonna be successful.
我相信它们会成功的。
I'm sure they will be.
但如果你现在看的话，进展还是挺慢的。
But if you look at it today, like, it's been pretty slow.
很多人以为会特别快。
I a lot of people thought it'd be incredibly fast.
而且我觉得，你看HIP 442，很多人当时就觉得，哇，一下子就成了。
And I think if you look at h I p four two, I think a lot of people thought, oh, boom.
就觉得，这玩意儿一个月内就能成为业务的主要收入来源，但实际上并没有。
This is like gonna be this, you know, within the month one, this can mean this massive revenue driver for the business and it's just not.
我们也是这么看的。
And I I think we kind of hold that view.
就像有二元期权，我们叫它二元，因为就是二元期权。
It's like, like having binary we call we call them binaries because they are binary options.
我觉得有这些挺好的，是个不错的工具，但跟真正有到期日的、凸性很强的普通期权比起来，互补性没那么强。
I think those are great to have and it's a nice tool, but it's it's not as complementary as true dated vanilla options that are very very convex.
那种期权灵活性很大。
You can have a lot of flexibility there.
相比之下，有到期日的期权，我们觉得跟预测市场比起来，能成为特别好的交叉销售。
Whereas, like, having having the dated options, we think is can be an incredible cross sell versus prediction markets.
预测市场，预测市场的用户行为，你在Polymarket上看一下，甚至，是的。
Prediction markets, the prediction market user behavior, you look at it on Polymarket or even yeah.
就是，是的。
Just yeah.
Polymarket对比高度对比滑块。
Polymarket versus height versus slider.
就像，这是非常不同的用户行为，和交易相比。
Like, it's very it's a very different user behavior than trading.
交易时，你大部分时间都在不停地点击。
Trading, you constantly are clicking most of the time.
大多数用户在永续合约上持仓时间不长。
Most users don't hold positions very long on Perps.
也许学点纪律。
Learn some discipline maybe.
但然后不停地点击按钮，而预测市场更像是，我有这个，我觉得，你知道，特朗普当选。
But then clicking buttons a lot verse verse prediction markets is kind of like I have I have this I think, you know, Trump gets elected.
一开始很多都是政治类的，现在变成了体育博彩、监管套利，随便你怎么叫。所以人们就是那样去参与的。
Lot of it were politics originally, and now it's sports betting, regulatory arbitrage, whatever you wanna call And so people are going about it that way.
这和做快单或者下注、通过永续合约或期权来表达对世界的看法，是非常不同的用户行为。
And that's a very different user behavior than taking an express or placing a bet and expressing a view on the world via perpetual futures or options.
所以，用户下的注是完全不同的。
So, like, it's a very different bet that the user is making.
因此，在我们看来，期权比预测市场更容易交叉销售。
And so options is a much easier cross sell, in our opinion, than prediction markets.
我非常感谢你的见解，尤其是像你这样经验丰富的期权交易员。
I really appreciate your your views on that and especially somebody who's such an experienced options trader.
不久前，Derive 的 Nick Forrester 来过我们频道。
We had Nick Forrester of Derive on the channel not long ago.
所以我一直在学习这些，而且……
So I've been learning a lot about all of this and
Nick 很棒。
Nick is great.
是的。
Here.
尼克很棒。
Nick is great.
有很多
There's a
很棒的东西正在被构建，我从中学到了很多。
lot of great things being built, and I'm I'm just learning a ton from all of this.
我很好奇你对这个的看法。
I'm curious your thoughts on this.
我们谈到了零售用户。
We talked about retail users.
我们谈到了机构。
We talked about institutions.
我很好奇你对智能体金融和智能体用户的看法和策略，因为我采访过很多人，比如拉胡尔·鲍威尔、乔迪·维瑟、汤姆·李，他们都在谈论数字资产和智能体金融之间的碰撞。
I'm curious your thoughts and strategy for agentic finance and agentic users because I've done a lot of interviews with people like Rahul Powell and Jordi Visser, Tom Lee, talking about this collision between digital assets and Agenic Finance.
我也很好奇Lighter在这方面的策略或愿景是什么，因为我们还没聊过这个。
And I'm curious what Lighter's strategy or vision is on that because we haven't talked about that
我们已经推出了一些工具，让人们可以连接代理并通过Lighter进行交易。
We we've launched a fair amount of tools for people to connect agents and trade via Lighter.
我们认为那里有增长空间。
We think there's growth there.
就我个人而言，我对这个很兴奋，但这不是我特别有竞争优势的领域。
I mean, personally, it's it's one I'm excited about, but it's not a place I necessarily have competitive edge.
我觉得如果你找我们的一位工程师来聊，他们会给出比我好得多的回答。
I think if you had one of our engineers on, they give you a much better answer than I would.
在这个领域，我觉得自己没有什么优势，也没有特别好的见解。
This is a place I don't feel like I have an edge or like a great great point of view.
我觉得到目前为止，这个被炒作得有点过头了。
I think it's it's been overhyped so far.
我觉得它在小额支付方面会很有前景。
I think it's gonna be pretty big for micropayments.
对于永续合约交易，我不太确定。
For for trading perps, I'm not sure.
我觉得最好的用例其实不是代理式的，而是系统化的。
I think the best use case and this really isn't agent agentic, but it's more of systematic.
我们的一个合作伙伴，Menara，实际上是我们在合作伙伴归因方面最大的合作伙伴，他们运行系统化策略。
One of our partners, Menara, who's actually our largest partner on the partner attribution side, they run systematic strategies.
他们也有代理之类的。
And they've got agents and things like this as well.
他们在Lighter上比其他平台取得了惊人的成功，这完全是因为零费用。
And they've seen incredible success on lighter versus other platforms, and that's strictly because zero fees.
所以当你运行这些高换手策略，也许代理会运行这些策略时，零费用实际上对你的盈亏非常有利。
And so when you're running these high turnover strategies and maybe an agent would run this, having zero fees is actually like massively accretive to like your your p and l.
首先，如果你必须支付费用，而且你有大量的换手，那真的会影响你的盈亏。
First, if you're having to pay fees and you have a ton of turnover, it really hits your p and l.
所以，像Monara就是一个很好的例子。
And so, like, Monara is a great example of this.
我觉得Pair Protocol在一定程度上也是很好的例子。
I think Pair Protocol to an extent is also a great example of this.
他们在Lighter上取得了很大的成功，但在其他平台上就不一定了。
They have had great success on Lighter, but they haven't necessarily on other platforms.
所以我知道这不太符合你问的关于智能体的问题，但如果你想想，智能体花费大量资金，而且交易频繁，那么降低交易成本对任何智能体的表现都会有巨大的提升。
And so I know this isn't quite the agentic question you're asking, but if you think agents pay spend a lot of money, and they do it frequently, you know, having a lower cost there is gonna be massively accretive to to the performance of whatever whatever agent you're on.
你知道吗，加密货币有个奇怪的现象，就是你在里面待得越久，账户就越多。
You know, one of the weird things about crypto is that the longer you're in it, the more accounts you seem to end up with.
你在一个地方买入，在另一个地方交易，在别的地方赚收益，如果你真的需要资金，最后不得不卖掉你本来想保留的东西。
You buy in one place, trade somewhere else, earn yield somewhere else, and if you actually need capital, you end up having to sell something that you probably wanted to keep.
这就是为什么我们Milk Road和Nexo合作。
That's why we at Milk Road are partnering with Nexo.
他们能把所有东西都放在一个账户里。
These guys keep the whole thing under one account.
你可以买入、交易加密货币，在你已有的资产上赚取利息，甚至可以用你的资本借款，而不必卖掉它。
You can buy, trade crypto, earn interest on what you already hold, and even borrow against your capital without having to sell it.
所有功能集中在一个地方，一个账户，全都在Nexo上。
All in one spot, all in one account, all on Nexo.
所以如果你需要流动性但又不想放弃仓位，或者你已经在持有加密货币并想用它做更多事情，我觉得Nexo值得你花时间了解一下。
So if you need liquidity but you don't wanna give up your position or you're already holding crypto and you wanna be able to do more with it, I think Nexo is worth your time.
我们很喜欢和他们合作。
We love working with them.
我觉得你也会喜欢的。
I think you will too.
告诉他们，是Milk Road推荐你来的。
Tell them Milk Road sent you.
明白了。
Gotcha.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，我很期待看到这一切会如何发展。
Well, I I'm interested to see how that all plays out.
我们来聊聊代币Lit吧。
Let's talk about the token, Lit.
你们已经从回购并持有转向了回购并销毁的计划。
You guys have switched from a buyback and hold to a buyback and burn program.
我记得你们是在七月份做的这个转变。
I think July was when you guys made this transition.
从那以后，你们已经销毁了总供应量的6%以上。
Since then, you have burned over 6% of the total supply.
我很好奇，你们怎么看这个，就是Lighter的收入如何推动代币价值，以及市场对这个变化的反应怎么样？
And I'm just curious your your thoughts on on this in terms of revenue that Lighter is making and driving that value to the token and just, like, what's the response been from the market to this change?
我觉得需要指出的是，这其实是流通供应量的6%。
I think it's important to to note that that is, like, 6% of circulating supply.
对。
Okay.
就是提一下，是流通供应量的6%。
Just for for what it's worth, 6% of the circulating supply.
是的，我们计划继续回购。
And, yeah, we could we plan on continuing to do buybacks.
我们认为这是展示与社区保持一致的好方法。
We think it's a great way to show alignment with the community.
我觉得回购这种做法，像Hyperliquid几年前就率先采用了。
I think buybacks, like, Hyperliquid kind of championed those a few years ago.
我认为这是展示并赢得市场信任的好方式。
I think it's just a great way to show and earn trust with the market.
在加密货币领域，过去十年里，我们确实被一些团队和创始人坑过，所以回购是调整激励机制的好办法，虽然有点无奈。
I think in crypto, over the last ten years, we've kind of gotten burned by teams and founders, and so it's a great way to align incentives, unfortunately.
所以我们做回购是为了赢得信任。
So, like, I think we do buybacks to to earn trust.
而且我觉得随着时间推移，也许SEC和CFTC会介入，一旦我们能将代币权利赋予持有者，情况可能会改变。
And I think over time, and maybe this is where SEC and the CFTC step in, is once we can kind of assign token rights to to token holders, I think that probably changes.
因为现在大多数做回购的公司，都是基于收入的一定比例，而且是总收入，不是净利润，也不是盈利或自由现金流。
Because most companies that do buybacks today do it on a percentage of revenue and top line revenue, not not bottom line, not earnings, not free cash flow.
所以我觉得随着时间的推移，可能会变成按自由现金流的一定比例来操作。
And so I think over time, it's probably a percentage of free cash flow.
不过，是的，我们继续用收入的100%来回购，我们希望和社区保持高度一致。
But, yes, we continue to do a 100% of buybacks with revenues, and we want to be massively aligned with our community.
随着监管环境的变化，我们也会灵活调整。
And as as the regulatory landscape changes, we'll be flexible in that.
在那种可以把代币权利分配给代币持有者的情况下，你觉得策略会怎么变？你就不需要把那么多资金用来回购代币了。
How do you see the strategy changing in that world where you can assign token rights to token holders, and you don't have to use so much of the capital to just buy back the token.
这对Lighter来说会解锁什么？在那个格局下，又会有什么变化？
What does that unlock for Lighter, and and what would change in that that that landscape?
我们在支出和增长上可以更加自律。
We could be a lot more disciplined on our spend and growth.
我的意思是，如果你看一个正常的股权业务，他们大部分钱都花在研发和增长上。
I mean, I I think if you if you look at a normal equity business, they spend most of their money on r and d and growth.
资本开支建设。
CapEx build out.
我的意思是，过去六年里，人工智能一直是彭博社上唯一的热门话题。
I mean, it's been the only talk of the town on Bloomberg for the last six years with AI.
而且，这非常像普通科技公司的发展方式，我觉得我们本质上就是一家科技公司。
And, like, this is very much so, like, how normal tech companies go, and I think we're very much so a tech company.
就像，我不喜欢，是的。
Like, I don't like, do I I yes.
虽然我们是加密货币业务，但我们非常像一家科技公司，而且我们正在多元化我们的收入来源，涉及各种资产类别。
It's a crypto business, but, like, we're very much so a tech company, and we are diversifying our revenue streams in various asset classes.
我们想完全像一家科技公司、像一家初创公司那样运营。
It's like we wanna operate very much as a tech company, as a startup.
我们想投资于增长。
We wanna be investing into growth.
所以一旦我们能将权利之类的东西分配给代币，我绝对认为把钱花在增长上更有意义。
So once we can assign rights and things like that to the token, I definitely think it makes more sense to spend spend money on growth.
但在可预见的未来，也许几年内，我们会继续用100%的收入进行回购，在可预见的未来会一直这样。
But for the foreseeable future, and maybe that's years, we will continue to buy back a 100 or buy back with a 100% of revenues for the foreseeable future.
也许要几年，也许不用那么久。
Maybe that's years, maybe that's not.
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
好的。
Okay.
明白了。
Gotcha.
行。
Alright.
所以我们只是想确认一下，是的。
So we just wanna sure yeah.
我们只是想确保和社区投资者保持良好的关系，让他们信任我们。
We just wanna make sure that we have a great relationship with the community investors and so to trust us.
我们希望好好管理我们手里的资金，不想把它烧掉。
Like, we wanna be good stewards of of the capital we have, and we don't we don't wanna burn that.
你知道吗？
You know?
嗯，是的，我们会做回购和销毁，但我们不想因为各种激励措施就把这些钱白白烧掉。
Well, yes, we'll do buy back and burns, but we don't wanna go light that on fire with various incentives.
所以当我们考虑和某人合作时，我们会非常谨慎地选择合作伙伴，以及如何花钱，无论是内部还是外部合作伙伴。
And so when we think about going to do a deal with somebody, we wanna be very selective with who we work with, how we spend, both internally and and externally with partners.
我们希望成为所拥有资本的好管家。
We wanna be good stewards of the capital we have.
从商业角度来看，我们希望成为好的投资者、好的资金分配者，确保把钱花在能带来高ROIC（投资资本回报率）的地方。
We wanna be good good investors, good allocators from a business standpoint, making sure we're spending money on the right places that are gonna have a really high ROIC, return on invested capital for the business.
你知道吗，你刚才说要谨慎选择合作伙伴。
You know, you just said you wanna be selective with your partners.
你有没有遇到过一些人，你不得不因为某些原因拒绝他们？或者，比如，什么情况会让你不得不拒绝一个你本来感兴趣的合作伙伴，但就是没法在交易上达成一致？
Are there conversations you've had with people where you've had to say no for certain reasons, or, like, what might cause you to have to say no to a partner that, you know, you were interested in but, you know, couldn't get to a certain point on a deal?
那会是什么情况呢？
What would happen there?
是的。
Yes.
我们确实遇到过。
We we have.
而且这更多是具体来说，我们的SDK是开源的。
And and this this is more so specifically I mean, our SDK is open source.
Lighter TS现在也是开源的，这是我们很多前端组件，很多开发者已经联系我们，并且非常感激。
Lighter TS is now open source, which is lot of our front end components, builders have been reaching out and are very appreciative of.
但所以，这没问题。
But so, like, that's fine.
谁想构建都可以构建。
Whoever wants to build can build.
但然后说到实例，比如我们为Robinhood构建的，有Robinhood Lighter实例，在那个实例上线之前，还有其他团队在问我们能否为他们构建一个实例。
But then when it comes to instances, like what we built for Robinhood, have the Robinhood Lighter instance, There are other teams even prior to that that instance going live who are who are asking if we could build an instance for them.
有时候构建实例并不合理，因为他们无法解决启动问题。
Sometimes it doesn't make sense to to build an instance because they can't solve the bootstrapping problem.
比如说，你得找到流动性。
Like, have to find the liquidity.
你得有足够的分布，才能有吃单的流量。
You have to have the distribution to have the the taker flow.
你得有做市商的关系。
You have to have the market maker relationships.
而且你还需要相当大的资产负债表，因为你得为这个提供资金。
And you've gotta have a pretty big balance sheet because you have to fund that.
所以有时候从这个角度看，就不太合理。
And so sometimes it doesn't make sense from that standpoint.
但如果你能解决冷启动的问题，而且有像Robinhood那样强大的分布，那就非常合理了。
But if you can solve the bootstrapping problem, and you've got great distribution like Robinhood, it makes a ton of sense.
还有一些人没有同样的分布，所以自己搞一个实例就不太合适。
There are there are others that don't have the same type of distribution that it doesn't make sense to kind of have your own instance.
因此，直接接入我们的SDK，使用合作伙伴归因，就更有意义了。
And so it makes a lot more sense to just plug into our SDK and use partner attribution.
好的。
Okay.
所以，对于什么样的合作应该采用什么样的解决方案，其实差别很大。
So there's a lot of variance in terms of what is the right solution for what partnership there.
在你和增长负责人以及投资者关系负责人进行的这些对话中，
In these conversations you're having you're head of growth and investor relations.
在这些对话里，是更多像人们主动来找你，急切地想要某种永续合约的解决方案，还是你仍然需要向他们推销永续合约和加密货币？
In these conversations that you're having, are is this, like, more like people are coming to you, like, desperate to get some sort of solution for perps, or are you still having to sort of pitch perps and crypto to them?
这些对话的性质是怎样的？
And, like, what's the nature of those conversations?
更像是你去敲门，还是你在接听来电？
Is it more like you knocking on doors or fielding incoming?
两者都有，但肯定更多是我去敲门。
It's it's both, but it's definitely more of me knocking on doors.
比如，我们确实会收到一些主动找上门的，这很好，我们也很喜欢。
Like, we we get some inbound, which is great, and we love that.
但我觉得没多少人会主动去找传统金融机构谈合作。
But I I don't know too many people that are knocking on traditional financial institution doors.
一些大型加密货币公司也是这样。
The same with some of the larger crypto players.
我不知道有多少人会主动去联系他们，所以我们花了很多时间在主动出击上。
I don't know how many people are knocking on doors there, and so we spend a lot of time knocking on doors.
我觉得我们在这方面做得不错，比如我们的业务拓展团队。
I think we have been in so, like, leads our our BD team.
我觉得他在扩大业务拓展团队和主动联系客户方面做得非常出色。
I think he's done a stellar job of growing the BD team and knocking on doors.
他真的很重视这一点。
He really champions that.
我也参与其中，开始主动联系更多的客户。
I've stepped in there and started knocking on a lot more doors as well.
而且，你知道，我觉得这对我来说是一个核心重点。
And, you know, I think that's like a core focus for me.
是的，虽然我主要负责投资者关系，但我还是会继续和投资者交流。
Like, yes, while I might lead investor relations, I continue to have conversations with investors.
如果你正在看这个视频，并且是投资者，欢迎联系我。
If you're an investor watching this, please reach out.
我很乐意聊聊。
I'm happy to chat.
但我现在把更多时间花在业务拓展上，比如主动联系客户、促成交易。
But I'm spending a lot more of my time on the BD side, like knocking on doors, getting deals done.
我们想要扩大分销渠道。
Like, we wanna grow our distribution.
而且我们不只是想扩大分销，我们想实现百倍增长，所以需要找到合适的合作伙伴。
And we don't wanna just grow our distribution to actually wanna grow to 100 x and who are the right partners to work with.
所以我花了很多时间和这些合作伙伴在一起，而他们中的很多进展比较慢。
And so spending a lot of time with these partners, and a lot of them are slower moving.
首先，在加密货币领域，一般来说，你进行一次对话，通常一周内就能拿到提案和条款清单。
First, in crypto, generally speaking, you have a conversation and you usually have a proposal and a term sheet shined within a week.
这需要几个月、几个季度的时间。
These are months, quarters.
所以这很像一个追求阶段，我们花很多时间和这些合作伙伴面对面或线上交流。
And so it's it's very much of like this courting phase where we spend a lot of time with these partners in person, virtually.
所以做了很多上门拜访的工作。
So doing a lot of door knocking.
嗯，我觉得如果你敲的门回复得比较慢，通常是因为那些对话更值得进行，所以坚持下去吧。
Well, I think if if you're knocking on doors that are taking longer to get back to you, it's usually because those conversations are more worth having, so stick with it.
我想再问一个关于代币的问题。
I wanna ask another question around the token.
有一个质押奖励计划已经启动了，我相信这个计划是由2.5亿代币储备资助的，目标是在LIT上提供大约6%的收益率。
There's a staking rewards program that's been initiated, which I believe was funded with 250,000,000 token reserve, targeting around a 6% yield on on LIT.
但这个计划似乎设定为可能运行有限的时间，也许不会永远持续。
But this seems like this program is is set up to run for maybe a limited amount of time, but maybe not forever.
你觉得这个计划是否也会在某个时候被终止，或者你对质押计划的演变有什么看法？
Is this also something you think you might sunset at some point, or just, like, what's your your thoughts on the evolution of the staking program?
这个我们很灵活。
We're flexible with that.
我觉得就算把那个比例提高4%或者降低4%，也不是什么关键因素，但我们在资金分配上会保持灵活。
I I think I don't think it's a needle needle mover if we were to increase that 4% or decrease that 4%, but we remain flexible in that that allocation of capital.
好的。
Okay.
那我们就先这样吧。
Well, we'll just let that sit there then.
你觉得零手续费这件事，Lighter会一直持续下去吗？
Do you think that zero fees is going to be something that Lighter continues to offer in perpetuity?
因为这个问题我其实想过很多次。
Because, like, I I've I've wondered about this a lot.
就是说，你们是不是铁了心要维持这个政策？
Like, is this something you're committed to maintaining?
还是说以后市场情况变了，或者业务需要收入的时候，这个政策可能会调整？
Is this something that might change in the future as dynamics in the market change and, like, you know, the business needs to bring in that revenue?
你对这个有什么看法？还有未来的展望呢？
What's your thoughts on that and and the outlook?
当然。
Absolutely.
我们确实希望零售用户零费率。
We we want it to be zero fees for retail.
我们确实是这么认为的。
We we do believe that.
但这并不意味着我们不会通过其他方式变现。
But it doesn't mean we won't monetize in different ways.
所以我们最近宣布，我们改变了某些流量的变现方式。
So we recently announced we've changed the way in which we monetize some flow.
最初，标准账户是免费的，而高级账户则被很多做市商，或者说，专业的API交易者使用，因为高级账户有更高的速率限制，但需要支付费用。
So originally, you had a standard account which was free, and then you had a premium account which a lot of market makers and call it, you know, sophisticated API traders were using because you had higher rate limits, and you you had to pay fees there.
零售用户是免费的。
Retail was free.
现在我们其实推出了一个新的等级，叫Plus。
Now we've actually introduced a new tier called plus.
之前我们有很多免费账户的用户，因为用API做TWAP之类的操作，经常遇到速率限制的问题。
And so we had a lot of users on the free accounts who are running into rate limit issues because they were using the API for TWOPs.
所以很快你就会碰到速率限制。
And so you would hit your rate limit pretty pretty quickly there.
所以我们推出了这个Plus等级，maker和taker都收0.5个基点，但速率限制高很多。
And so we've introduced this plus tier where we charge point five bps maker taker, and you have much higher rate limits.
我们已经看到一些用户从免费账户转到Plus账户，甚至转到高级账户，就是为了更高的速率限制。
And so we're start we have seen some movement from free accounts to plus accounts, even to premium accounts for higher rate limits.
所以你看，还有其他方式可以变现。
And so, like, there's other ways in which to monetize.
我们还推出了很多类似OEMS的功能，就是订单和执行管理系统这类交易功能，比如冰山订单、RFQ、高级TWAP，还有maker和taker的原子订单。
We've also introduced a lot of OEMS type of features, order and execution management system type of type of trading features, icebergs, RFQ, advanced t ops that are both maker taker, atomic orders.
其中一些功能，我们确实会收费，比如对零售用户或免费用户收1个基点。
And for some of those, we do charge 1 bp for for retail for free users.
现在他们可以使用其他功能了。
Now they can use the other features.
这些功能完全免费，但我们认为这些是非常高级的功能，值得收取高级费用。
They're completely free, but we believe these are very much so premium features that just deserve a premium fee.
所以我们也在那方面稍微赚点钱。
And so we do monetize on that a little bit as well.
但交易所的核心功能，核心服务，是的，将保持免费。
But the core feature, the core functionality of the exchange, yes, will be free.
好的。
Okay.
所以你们会努力保持这一点，但盈利策略可能会有所调整。
So you're gonna try to maintain that, but the monetization strategy could evolve somewhat here.
特雷弗，我很好奇一件事。
Trevor, I'm curious about something.
哦，抱歉。
Oh, sorry.
关于这一点，还有一点要补充。
One other piece on that.
我觉得我们的模式其实有不少定价空间，而且我们可以在这方面发挥创意，灵活运用这些定价权。
I think we have a lot there's a fair amount of pricing power, I think, to be had with our model as well, and I think we can get very creative with with flexing some of that pricing power.
实际上，你现在在Robinhood上就能看到一些这样的例子。
I think you you see some of that on Robinhood right now, actually.
所以，如果你不知道或者没看过文档的话，Robinhood实例上的做市商费用和高级账户费用是主实例的三倍。
So for those of you who don't know who haven't looked at the docs, the the market maker fees, the premium account fees on the Robinhood instance are three times as much as what they are on the main instance.
所以你可以看到，定价权在那里可以发挥作用。
So it's kind of you can kind of see where some pricing power could come into play there.
你能再详细解释一下吗？可能有些人没听懂你话里的意思。
Do you wanna elaborate on that a little bit more for for people who maybe aren't reading between the lines of what you're saying here?
你到底想表达什么？
What what what are you getting at here?
所以，正如之前提到的，我们的收入来自做市商和那些使用高级功能、需要更高频率限制的专业交易者。
So so we we we make our money, as mentioned earlier, from market makers and sophisticated traders who are using advanced features and and need higher rate limits.
而且主实例上是有收费的，这个费用在Robinhood实例上是三倍。
And there's a fee on those on the main instance, and what that fee is is three times as much on the Robinhood instance.
这有点像，好吧。
And it's kinda like, okay.
那你能向这些用户收多少钱，直到他们离开？
Well, how much can you charge these users before they leave?
所以这就是定价权的意义，我们某种程度上是在试验这个。
And so you can't that's what's pricing power is, and so, like, we're kind of experimenting with that in a way.
我觉得我们大概四五个月前就这么做了。
And I think we did that about four or five months ago.
我们实际上在主实例上提高了费用，所以我觉得可以合理推测，接下来一年你会看到更多这样的调整。
We actually increased it on the main instance, and so I think it's safe to assume you'll see some more of that over the next year.
我觉得我们想慢慢来。
I think we wanna be slow in this.
我们现在不需要急着变现，也不想那么做。
We don't have to monetize right now aggressively, and we don't wanna do that.
我们目前只想专注于扩大用户基础，但内部其实有不少变现的手段可以随时启用。
We just wanna focus on distribution, but there are a fair amount of monetization levers we can pull internally.
好的。
Okay.
那我们来稍微推演一下。因为在我看来，很多你可能会合作或者寻求合作以扩大用户基础的行业机构和玩家，也许短期内不会，但长期来看，最终都会在某种程度上变成对手或竞争者。
Well, let's game this out a little bit because it seems to me like a lot of the institutions and players in the industry that you might be partnering with or seeking to partner with to increase the distribution at some point, maybe not in the short term, but at some point in the long run, eventually become sort of an adversary or a competitor in some way, at least at some point.
你怎么看待这个问题？
How do you think about that?
因为现在你努力去合作，可能在未来是有利的。
Because, like, when you're trying to to do this right now, it may be advantageous in the future.
但也可能变成敌对关系。
It may be adversarial.
当你和这些机构打交道时，你是如何处理这些关系的？
Like, how do you navigate those relationships when you're talking to these institutions?
我觉得大多数时候，这其实是一个很好的合作关系，一个长期的伙伴关系。
I think most of the time, it's very like, it's a it's a great partnership, a long term partnership.
我们并不打算只做十二个月或二十四个月的短期合作。
We don't plan on, you know, having twelve month partnerships, twenty four month partnerships.
我们希望这些是长期的，五年甚至十年的合作关系。
We want these to be long term five, ten year partnerships.
而且，和我们正在洽谈的大多数人，我们并不把他们看作竞争对手。
And most of the people we're having conversations with, you know, we don't view as competitors.
他们也不把我们当竞争对手，更多是合作伙伴。
They don't view us as competitors very much as partners.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，我觉得我们得留意一下这个情况会怎么发展。
Well, I I think we'll have to monitor how that situation evolves.
特雷弗，我要问你一个问题，你怎么理解都行。
Trevor, I'm gonna ask you a question here, you you take this however you want.
我下次什么时候能听到你上头条新闻？
When should I next expect to hear you making some headline news?
很快吧。
Sometime soon.
我知道我没给你一个确切的答案。
I know I don't have a good answer for you.
我们对正在洽谈的合作伙伴感到兴奋，而且我觉得可以放心地说，你很快就会听到我们的更多消息。
We're we're excited for the partners we're having conversations with, and I think it's it's safe to assume, you know, you'll hear more from us.
好的。
Okay.
那你继续敲门吧。
Well, you keep knocking on those doors.
Bitwise的Matt Hogan是我们节目的常客，他说和机构投资者平均要见八次面才能有进展。
Matt Hogan from Bitwise is a frequent guest of the show, and he says that it takes, like, an average of eight meetings with an institutional player before anything happens.
而且这八次见面可能也要花上好几个月。
So So that that can take months for those eight meetings to happen too.
所以我们会持续关注。
So we'll we'll keep paying attention.
特雷弗，非常感谢你来做客。
Trevor, thank you so much for being
我还想补充一下，马特，向Bitwise的兄弟们致敬。
I would also add, Matt, shout out to, like, the Bitwise guys.
他们真的很棒。
They're they're fantastic.
马特、瑞安，还有那边的整个团队，他们刚刚在欧洲推出了我们的ETP。
Matt, Ryan, the the whole team over there, they just slot we have an ETP in Europe now.
是的。
Yep.
所以他们是一支非常出色的团队。
And so they're an incredible team.
不。
No.
我看到了。
I I saw that.
好像就是今天早上出来的消息。
It's, like, I think this morning that came out.
所以事情一直在发生，头条新闻不断。
So this is a lot happening all the time, and the headlines keep coming.
我相信以后还会继续。
I'm sure they will continue to.
Trevor，非常感谢你来到Milk Road加密节目。
Trevor, thank you so much for being on Milk Road crypto.
我学到了很多。
I learned a lot.
我觉得我们的观众也学到了很多。
I think our audience has learned a lot.
坦白说，我也持有一些Lighter，不管它叫Light还是Lighter什么的。
Full disclosure, I have a bag of light as well, a lit light lighter, whatever.
因为，你知道，跟你和其他很多人聊了很久之后，我们Milk Road的一位分析师在Lighter还不到一美元的时候就预测到了这个。
Because, you know, after talking to you and a lot of other people for a long time, you know, one of our analysts here at Milk Road called this, like, when lighter was below a dollar, he
说你们会
said you guys were gonna
火起来的。
be huge.
所以我们一直都很看好你们的工作。
So we've been a big fan of the work for a long time.
大家可以去哪里找到你和你的更多作品呢？
Where can we send people to find more of you and your work online?
你可以在X上关注我，Trevor下划线Flipper。
You can just follow me, Trevor underscore Flipper on x.
好的，先生。
Alright, sir.
好的，我们会确保大家都去关注你。
Well, we'll make sure everybody does that.
我想我的问题就这些了，所以这段话我们可能会剪掉。
I think that is the end of my questions, so we'll probably cut me saying this out.
但是，Lighter的投资者关系与增长主管Trevor King，非常感谢你来到Milk Road加密节目。
But Trevor King, head of investor relations and growth at Lighter, thank you so much for being on Milk Road crypto.
这是我的荣幸。
It was a pleasure.
谢谢你们的邀请。
Thanks for having me.
也感谢大家的收看。
And thank you all for joining us.
希望大家今天都有所收获。
I hope you all learned something today.
这期节目里有很多看涨的干货，希望大家花点时间好好消化一下。
There's a lot of bullish alpha in this one, so I hope you take some time to digest all of it.
下次再见，注意安全，保持学习，保持看涨，我们下期Milk Road加密节目再见。
Until next time, stay safe, stay educated, stay bullish, and we will see you all on the next episode of Milk Road crypto.
感谢大家的到来。
Thanks for being here, everyone.
再见。
Bye.
感谢收听Milk Road。
Thanks for listening to Milk Road.
如果你喜欢这个节目，记得点赞和订阅。
If you enjoyed the show, make sure you like and subscribe.
如果你在市场中很难找到赢家，这正是Milk Road PRO的用武之地。
And if you're struggling to find winners in market, that's exactly what Milk Road PRO is built for.
我们的分析师很早就发现了一些最大的赢家，PRO让你看到他们接下来买什么、每一笔交易以及每个仓位背后的研究。
Our analysts have called some of the biggest winners early, and PRO lets you see what they're buying next, every trade they make, and the research behind every position.
点击下方链接查看Milk Road PRO。
Check out Milk Road PRO at the link below.
你在Milk Road上听到的所有内容仅供参考。
Everything you hear on Milk Road is for informational purposes only.
这些是我们的个人观点，不是财务建议，我们可能持有我们讨论的一些投资。
These are our personal opinions, not financial advice, and we may own some of the investments we talk about.
一定要自己做研究，做出适合自己的决定。
Always do your own research and make the decisions that are right for you.
下次见。
See you next time.
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