当AI代理掌控数十亿美元的加密货币时，它们将在哪里进行交易？

我其实觉得，为智能体做自营交易，比为人做自营交易的市场契合度要高得多。

I actually think that prop trading for agents has a much better market fit than prop trading for humans.

数字资产行业给市场带来了一整套全新的金融基础设施。

The digital asset industry has brought an entirely new generation of financial primitives to the market.

自营交易就是其中之一。

Prop trading is one of them.

但什么是自营交易呢？

But what is prop trading?

为什么它现在这么火？

Why is it exploding?

关于这些，你需要了解些什么？

And what do you need to know about all of this?

大家好，欢迎来到Milk Road加密节目，这个节目深知，在自营交易、永续合约和预测市场之间，有很多有趣的方式让你在加密世界里亏光本金。

Hello, and welcome to Milk Road crypto, the show that knows that between props, perps, and prediction markets, there are a lot of fun ways to go broke in crypto.

我是主持人，John Gillen。

I'm your host, John Gillen.

今天是9月22日，星期二，今天我们请到了路易斯·雷吉斯。

Today is Tuesday, September 22, and today we are joined by Louis Regis.

路易斯是Proper的创始人兼CEO，这是一家建立在Hyperliquid上的链上自营交易公司。

Louis is the founder and CEO of Proper, an onchain prop trading firm built on Hyperliquid.

我很期待和他聊聊自营交易。

I'm really excited to talk to him about prop trading.

我对此几乎一无所知，但我知道他是专家，而且他对Hyperliquid生态系统也非常了解。

I know almost nothing about it, but I know he's an expert, and I know he knows a lot about the Hyperliquid ecosystem too.

如果你觉得这些内容不错，记得点赞和订阅。

So if all that sounds good to you, make sure you like and subscribe.

把这期节目分享给会喜欢它的朋友。

Share this episode with somebody who's gonna enjoy it.

提醒一下，我们今天的播客是免费的，这要感谢我们的合作伙伴Nexo，一个让你在一个地方就能交易、赚取和借贷的数字资产平台。

And as a reminder, our podcast today is free, and that would not be possible without our partners at Nexo, the digital asset platform that lets you trade, earn, and borrow all in one place.

所以请留意，稍后在节目中会有更多关于他们的信息。

So keep an ear out for more information on them later in the episode.

不过现在，让我们欢迎路易斯来到 Milk Road 节目。

But for now, let's welcome to the Milk Road show.

路易斯，你好吗？

Louis, how are you?

嘿，约翰。

Hey, John.

我状态特别好。

Doing super good.

你知道的，市场现在涨势不错。

You know, market is up.

整个加密货币圈的氛围都很积极。

The mood is up in crypto overall.

今天特别想聊聊做市交易，特别是 Proper 这家公司。

And really excited today to talk about prop trading and and proper specifically.

我也很期待和你交流。

Well, I'm really excited to have you.

我觉得这一期我们能学到很多东西。

I think we're gonna learn a lot in this one.

对于那些可能不太熟悉Propr和自营交易的朋友，你能简单介绍一下这个平台是什么，以及自营交易是怎么运作的吗？

For those who maybe aren't familiar with Propr and with prop trading, could you just give us a high level overview of what this platform is and how prop trading works?

我们回到自营交易的基本概念吧。

Come back to the, I guess, fundamentals of prop trading.

它的核心是让年轻交易者在不使用杠杆的情况下获得更多资金。

It's the ability for a young trader to access more capital without leverage.

具体操作就是，你买一个测试。

So the way it works is you buy, like, a test.

也就是说，你参加一个测试。

So you take a test.

这个测试有简单的规则，比如最大回撤限制和每日亏损限制，然后你需要达到一定的盈利目标。

The test has simple rules like a max drawdown limits and daily loss, and then you have to hit some profit targets.

如果你通过了这个测试，你就能使用我们的资金。

And if you succeed in in like, if you pass this test, you'll get access to our capital.

所以对于散户投资者来说，这是一种简单的方式，他们不一定有很多资金，但可以比较顺畅地获得更大的市场仓位。

So it's an easy way for retail investors that do not necessarily have access to a lot of capital to get a lot more size in the market in a way that's pretty seamless.

比如说，你可以获得高达20万美元的资金，让你对价格有个概念。

For example, you can get access to up to 200 ks of capital to give an idea of the price.

举个例子，100美元的资金，你可能要支付500多美元才能获得这笔资金的使用权。

For example, 100 of capital can you can pay north of like $500 to get access to this capital.

所以这是一种不同的方式，让散户投资者能够利用杠杆，并增长你的资本。

So it's a different way to access leverage as a as a retail investors and and grow your capital.

而我们具体做的事情，就是把这个过程放在链上。

And what we do specifically is we build this onchain.

它建立在Hyperliquid之上，非常透明，可以说是我们对这个目前非常不透明的行业的一种回应。

So it's built on top of Hyperliquid, super transparent, sort of our response to this industry that today is super opaque.

而Hyperliquid的链上世界给这个领域带来了很多透明度，到目前为止，我们看到了很好的用户反馈和增长势头。

And Hyperliquids, the onchain world brings a ton of transparency to the space, and we're seeing great traction and great feedback from our users so far.

你觉得这个产品最理想的用户群体是什么样的？

How do you think about the the ideal user group for this?

因为传统上，自营交易一直是由像Jane Street这样的机构来做的。

Because prop trading traditionally has been something that has been done by, you know, a lot of institutions like Jane Street and so forth.

你觉得为什么自营交易需要让散户更容易参与，理想用户是谁？

Why do you think prop trading needs to be something that's more accessible to retail, and and who are the ideal users for this?

我觉得是那些在市场上找到了优势的人，他们在市场上表现很好，但缺乏足够的资金来扩大规模。

I would say someone that's has found an edge on the market, so it's it's 's really good in the market but does not have sufficient capital to scale.

所以，理想客户应该是净资产在一千美元到十万美元之间，想更快增长自己资金的人。

So it's a I would say ideal customer would be someone that has a net worth from a thousand dollars to a 100 k and wants to grow their stack more rapidly.

这是一种让你的资金独立运作的方式。

So it's it's a way to decouple your capital.

我只会推荐那些真正懂交易的交易者去做自营交易。

I would recommend prop trading to only traders that know how to trade.

我其实不认为你应该从自营交易开始。

I actually do not think that you should start with with prop trading.

我觉得一旦你在市场上有优势，也许你之前用模拟盘交易过，那就有很多路可以走了。

I think once you have an edge on the markets, maybe you've traded on paper money in the past, there's really a way to go.

不是的，我是说从比如一千块本金到十万，然后你就可以自己交易了。

No, from let's say one capital sorry, one k of capital to 100 and then you can trade on your own.

但关键在于让散户也能接触到外部资金，就像你刚才说的，过去只有机构才能做到这一点。

But it's really the ability to democratize access to external capital to retail investors, which as you said in the past was only available to institutions.

那你具体说说这个情况。

So tell me about this.

你之前提过，技术不再是护城河了，任何人都可以搭建一家自营交易公司。

You've you've said in the past that the technology is no longer the moat anymore and that anybody could build a prop firm.

你觉得 Proper 在保护自身护城河以及提供独特价值主张方面，与别人自己搭建一套自营交易系统相比，表现如何？

How do you think about Proper in in terms of, like, protecting its moat and, like, the unique value proposition of Proper as opposed to somebody else building their own prop trading system?

我们认为，第一点，透明度正变得越来越重要。

We think, one, transparency is becoming more and more important.

透明度能拉近用户和平台之间的距离。

Transparency brings you proximity between your users and the platform.

比如，我们要对业务的各种指标保持公开透明。

So for example, is to be open and transparent about virtually any metric about the business.

比如在Proper，你可以实时查看我们的财务报表。

For example, in Proper, you can view our financial statements in real time.

所以你能看到平台有多稳健，我们努力在各个方面保持透明。

So you see how sounds the platform is, and we are trying to be transparent on all levels.

而且，我每天还会直播Proper的进展，一天天更新。

And for example, I also do daily streams on the progress of Proper day after then.

我们认为这是很难复制的，因为不是所有公司都愿意在透明度上多下功夫。

We think that this is something that's hard to replicate because not all firms are willing to go the extra mile in terms of transparency.

所以，这大概是我们最重要的一个理念。

So that's I guess that's our mot number one.

第二个理念是分销。

Motto number two is the distribution.

现在，你可以通过Proper，比如Proper XYZ，获得链上资本。

So today, you can act have access to onchain capital through proper, like proper.

但也可以通过其他应用访问我们的基础设施。

X y z, but you can also have access to our infrastructure through other apps.

我们宣布了与 mmt.gg 的合作。

We've announced a partnership with mmt.gg.

那是一个交易终端。

It's a trading terminal.

就像你可以通过 mmt.gg 在 Hyperliquid 上交易一样，你也可以在 Proper 上交易。

And just like you can trade on Hyperliquid through mmt.gg, so that you can also trade on Proper.

所以我们也在通过其他已经有现成用户的终端来扩展 Proper，这一点很难被复制。

So we are scaling Proper through other terminals too that already have an existing distribution and that's hard to replicate.

现在我们只上线了几个终端，但到今年年底，我们会覆盖大约 15 个终端，这真的会为我们建立护城河。

Today we are in just a few terminals, but by the end of the year, we'll be on over about 15 terminals and that's really gonna build moat for us.

这就是，我想说，目前我们拥有的两大护城河。

And that's, I would say, today the the two big moats that we have.

我们正在努力打造第三个，这会包含很多社交元素。

We're working towards a third one which will include a lot of social components.

当你有一个嵌入到公司内部的社交网络时，这种价值很难在其他产品上复制，因为那是外部知识。

And whenever you have, I guess, let's say, a social network that's embedded within the firm, then that's value that's hard to create on a different product because that's, like, external knowledge.

这将是我们的第三个产品，预计今年第四季度上线。

And that's gonna be our third month, which will be live in q four this year.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我是约翰。

This is John.

听我说。

Listen.

我们Milk Road Pro的分析师精准抓住了这波AI牛市。

Our Milk Road Pro analysts nailed this AI bull market.

他们为我们的社区带来了大量成功的投资建议。

They had dozens of calls pay off in a big way for our community.

如果你想了解我们整个分析师团队如何为熊市结束后的加密牛市布局，现在就可以加入Milk Road Pro。

If you wanna see how our entire team of analysts are positioning for the crypto bull market that's gonna come after this bear market finally ends, You can join us now at Milk Road Pro.

只需一美元。

It's just a dollar.

链接在描述里。

Link is in the description.

你可以看到我们所有分析师的交易、他们的观察名单，还能了解他们是怎么在投资组合里应对的，而且随时都能在 Discord 上问我们问题，白天黑夜都行。

You'll get access to all of our analyst trades, their watch list, and see how they're navigating this in their portfolios and get access to ask us questions in Discord anytime day or night.

只要一美元。

It's just a dollar.

链接在描述里。

Link's in the description.

Milk Road Pro。

Milk Road Pro.

现在就加入吧。

Join now.

我们到时候见。

I'll see you there.

好的。

Okay.

所以，关于你如何思考Proper的差异化以及如何围绕业务建立护城河，这些背景信息很有帮助。

So there's some helpful context on on how you're thinking about the differentiation of Proper and and sort of building a moat around the business.

我有点好奇Hyperliquid在这方面的角度。

I'm kinda curious about the the Hyperliquid angle on this.

而且，你知道，你的背景挺有意思的。

And, you know, you your background is pretty interesting.

你之前在瑞信做过量化，后来据我所知还负责过罗斯柴尔德的加密交易台，然后你是最早来Hyperliquid的交易员之一。

You were a a quant at Credit Suisse, and you were running Rothschild's crypto desk, I believe, and then you were one of the earliest traders to come to Hyperliquid.

跟我聊聊Hyperliquid的生态系统吧，为什么你觉得Hyperliquid特别适合建立链上自营交易公司，以及那里的吸引力是什么。

Talk to me about the Hyperliquid ecosystem and why you think Hyperliquid is maybe, like, uniquely well suited to build a an onchain prop trading firm and and just talk to me about that and and what was the attraction there.

所以，如果你想做到非常透明，你就要在链上构建，我们基本上和底层一样透明，就像以太坊上的L2一样，你继承了以太坊的安全属性，我们也是这样。

So what you want if you wanna be very transparent, you wanna build on a we're essentially as transparent as the underlying, you know, same process as an l two on Ethereum, like, you inherit the security properties of Ethereum, and that's the same for us.

比如说，如果你建立在Bybit或币安上，你就拿不到清算数据，比如在币安或Bybit上，或者你很难真正信任它们。

So for example, if you were to be built on Bybit or Binance, it's you don't have access to liquidation data, for example, on on Binance or Bybit, or you you cannot really trust them.

所以Hyperliquid提供了公开的交易账本，我们认为这非常重要。

So Hyperliquid provides this provides this open ledger for trades, and that we think is very very important.

第二点是，交易体验非常好。

Second is also that the trading UX is great.

业内一些最大的交易者都在Hyperliquid上交易，他们选择Hyperliquid是有原因的。

Some of the biggest traders in the space trade on Hyperliquid, and they trade on Hyperliquid for a reason.

因为这里点差低、流动性高、各种代币的未平仓合约量很大，而且资产种类也很丰富，现在他们还在推出HIP 4。

That's because you have free low spreads, high liquidity, high amount of open interest on various amount of tokens, and they also have a pretty wide asset universe for h I p three and now they're rolling h I p four too.

所以作为平台来说非常方便，现在几乎没有理由再用币安了。

So just very convenient as a platform and today there is little reason to use Binance parts over to Hyperliquid.

第三点，也是最后一点，就是监管套利。

And I think third and that's going to be my last point is regulatory arbitrage.

Hyperliquid之所以能发展起来，就是因为监管套利，他们基本上能率先进入代币化永续合约领域，因为他们不受监管，所以不需要申请牌照等等。

So Hyperliquid has grown because of this regulatory arbitrage, essentially being able to move first into the tokenized perps area because they are not regulated, and so they do not have to to get licenses, etcetera.

所以他们非常灵活，这也是我们喜欢的一点，这样我们也能在市场上占据优势。

And so they they are being very agile, and that's something that we like so that we can also have an edge too on the on the market.

而且这个平台目前不强制KYC，所以我们可以尽可能多地支持用户。

And it's also a platform that today does not enforce KYC, so we can support as as many users as possible.

而像OKX或者Bybit这样的平台则拥有相关牌照等资质。

Whereas platforms like OKX or or Dibits are have licenses, etcetera.

所以我们不一定能利用它们的数据来服务所有客户。

So we cannot necessarily use their data for all of our customers.

目前Hyperliquid的代币价格略低于100美元，市值接近240亿美元。

Hyperliquid right now is trading just a little bit under a $100 token with nearly a $24,000,000,000 market cap.

很多人都在关注这个项目。我很好奇你对Hyperliquid可触达市场规模的看法，因为永续合约虽然存在已久，但直到最近才开始真正获得市场认可。

A lot of people have been paying attention to this project, and I'm curious your thoughts on how big the addressable market for Hyperliquid is because perpetuals, you know, have been around for a very long time, but only very recently started to gain some traction.

现在他们看起来正在抢占很多现货市场和其他领域的份额。

And now they seem to be eating into a lot of the spot markets and other things.

你觉得永续合约以及像 Hyperliquid 这样的生态系统的潜在市场规模有多大？

How big do you see the addressable markets for perps and, you know, for an ecosystem like Hyperliquid being?

作为一个职业生涯一直从事交易的人，你对此有什么看法？

And, like, what what's your perspective on that as somebody who's, you know, been in trading for his whole career?

我认为 Hyperliquid 的成长确实得益于监管套利。

I think Hyperliquid has really grown as a as a regulatory arbitrage.

作为法国人，我大概在2024年8月或者7月就被Bitget给踢出来了。

Typically, as a French, I got kicked off by bits in, like, August 2024 or, like, July 2024.

所以我被迫，因为我想交易永续合约。

And so I I was forced like because I I wanted to trade perks.

我其实是被逼着去交易这些的。

I was actually forced to trade them by this.

所以只能在Hyperliquid上交易。

So to trade on Hyperliquid.

所以Hyperliquid就是因为这种监管套利而发展起来的，而我对Hyperliquid的担忧是，监管会进入这个领域，让Hyperliquid和其他平台站在同一起跑线上。

So Hyperliquid has grown because of this regulatory arbitrage, and my fear about Hyperliquids is that regulation will come into this space, which will will bring Hyperliquid on par to the to the other platforms.

因为比如说，现在我觉得永续合约还有创新豁免。

Because for example, today, there is no, I think, you have innovation exemptions around perps.

但一旦有了监管框架，那就意味着大玩家和Hyperliquid之间会有公平的竞争环境。

But the day you have regulatory frameworks, then that means there will be an even playing field between the larger actors and Hyperliquid.

很难准确评估一旦Kraken、币安这些大平台能站在同一竞争水平上，Hyperliquid的增长会是什么样。

Like, it's hard to assess exactly what's gonna be the growth of Hyperliquids once the Kraken of the world, Binance of the world are able to be on the on the on on the same playing field.

但我想说的是，从目前的发展来看，Hyperliquid 现在基本上没有吸引到任何机构资金，因为机构不想利用这种监管套利。

But I I would like to say that the way it's shaping up, Hyperliquid is today does not capture roughly any institutional flows because institutions do not wanna capture this regulatory arbitrage.

我觉得这是 Hyperliquid 接下来的一个大方向。

And I think this is the the big next step for for Hyperliquids.

比如说，现在在永续合约市场上，你看不到那些传统的做市商，像 Genesis 这样的，它们都在 HIP3 上，而我认为这会是 Hyperliquid 下一步的重要突破。

For example, today on the perks, you do not have the traditional market makers, genestries of the world that are all being on on HIP3 and that's I think the next big step for Hyperliquid.

然后，比如在美国有一个监管框架的转变，我觉得如果看未平仓合约和日交易量的话，可能会带来数量级的增长。

And then for example having a framework transfer in The US will be I would say an order of magnitude in terms of if we look at the open interest, daily volume we think we're looking at an order of magnitude growth from here.

至于估值，我觉得现在真的得把 Hyperliquid 看作一个风险投资，95 的估值真的就是个风投赌注。

Now in terms of valuation, I would say it's today, you really have to view, like, Hyperliquid at, like, 95 is really just a venture bet.

如果我没记错的话，它的估值刚刚超过了盈透证券。

I think it just surpassed Interactive Brokers in terms of valuation, if I'm not wrong.

所以，你得押注 Hyperliquid 会在价格发现方面跟 CME 竞争，并抢占它们的市场份额，我觉得这个局面可能在未来两三年内会逐渐显现。

So it's a it's it's you have to be betting that Hyperliquid will will somewhat be tackling CME for, like, price discovery for example, and will eat their market share, which I think is a play that will unfold maybe in the next two or three years.

这就是我目前对 Hyperliquid 的看法。

But that's that's my take on Hyperliquid at the moment.

所以我觉得从价格上看，它确实算是定价合理。

So I think price wise, it's surely like fairly priced.

不过我觉得最终还是会有些不利因素。

Some headwinds eventually, I think.

比如空投，第三季可能很快就要来了，我觉得到时候会对代币造成一些压力。

Air drops, for example, season three might might come out soon, and I think it's gonna be some overhang for the token at some point.

但是——

But

好的。

Okay.

那你在Proper的策略是什么呢？

So what's your strategy at Proper then?

比如说，这种监管套利给了Hyperliquid一定的利基市场，也形成了一种护城河，在某些方面让它有了市场优势。

Like, let's say that this regulatory arbitrage that's given Hyperliquid sort of a a niche and sort of a moat and an advantage in certain ways in the market here.

如果这种优势开始消失，你觉得Proper还会留在Hyperliquid生态里吗？

If that starts to go away, do you think Propr stays in the Hyperliquid ecosystem?

你觉得你们可能会迁移到其他地方吗？

Do you think you maybe migrate somewhere else?

或者说，这会对你们产生什么影响？还是说你们对此持中立态度？

Or, like, how does that impact you, or are you sort of agnostic to that?

就像我之前说的，我们想要的是继承我们所构建的基础信息所具备的特性。

What what we want is to as as I said, like, we inherit the properties of the info that we build on top of.

我们希望这种开放性是天生的。

And what we want is this is open by nature.

而且目前像Lighter、Hyperliquid这样的平台真的屈指可数。

And today, there are only so few platforms, like lighter, Hyperliquid.

我觉得这就需要在流动性和中心化、透明度之间做个权衡。

I would say then there's a trade off between liquidity and centralization and transparency.

比方说，如果币安合约的流动性能翻十倍，那我们可能就会考虑用币安合约了。

So let's say if Binance Perks were to be 10x more liquid, maybe we would look at Binance Perks.

但现阶段我们更看重的是透明度。

But today we really value transparency.

比如说，我们怎么处理交易者的仓位，这个是在Hyperliquid上管理的，我觉得我们的用户真的很喜欢这一点。

For example, how we handle traders positions, well that's managed on Hyperliquid and I think our users really like this.

所以总的来说，作为交易者，我希望在我们构建和上线的所有资产上都能获得最好的价差和最好的流动性。

So overall as a trader, I want to get the best spread, best liquidity on all the assets that we build, that we list.

但我觉得，只有当Binance Propr的价差效率高出三倍的时候，这才真正有意义。

But I would say it's only gonna be relevant really if Binance Propr has like spread that's like 3x more efficient.

在那之前，我不会真的考虑这个。

Before this, I would not really look at this.

所以我们会坚持去中心化的基础设施，并且一直坚持下去。

So we'll go for decentralized infra and and stick to it.

说实话，如果我们放弃去中心化的基础设施，Proper就会失去一部分让它今天与众不同的核心精神。

Realistically, if we go out of decentralized infra, Proper is gonna lose part of the ethos that that that makes Proper unique today.

我很高兴听到这对你来说很重要。

I'm glad to hear that's important to you.

我觉得这确实很重要。

I think that that does matter a lot.

我想听听你对未来发展方向的想法，比如在采用和用户方面。

I wanna ask your thoughts about sort of where this goes from here in terms of adoption and and users.

就像我们说的，传统上自营交易一直是机构参与的事情。

As we said, you know, prop trading traditionally has been something that has been engaged in by institutions.

你正试图把它放到链上，用去中心化基础设施，并且面向散户。

You're trying to make it onchain, decentralized infrastructure, and retail oriented.

但很多人都在谈论代理金融和AI代理开始参与这些加密原语，Proper有没有一个策略或想法，来适应一个AI代理可能最终成为主要用户的世界？

But a lot of people are talking about agentic finance and AI agents beginning to engage in a lot of these crypto primitives, does Proper have a strategy or a thought around how to, you know, adapt the product in the world where AI agents may may eventually become the primary users?

我们其实最初就是为代理构建Proper的。

We we actually built Proper initially for agents.

所以整个基础设施最初都是围绕API构建的，然后我们在上面添加了前端。

So it's the whole infrastructure has been built around an API initially, and then we've added the front end on top of this.

今天，大约三分之一的用户是代理或算法交易者。

Today, about a third of our users are agents or algo traders.

Proper最大的优势之一是，现在所有老牌自营交易公司都建立在白标技术上，这些技术无法访问外部API，或者没有足够的开放API供代理进行交易。

It's one of the thing that benefits Proper the most is is today all the old prop firms are built on top of white label technology that do not have access to external APIs or they do not have enough open APIs for agents to to trade.

而且现在我们有了这个工具包，让机器人、交易员或者平台都能很容易地接入。

And today, we we have this toolkit that makes it easy for for bots, trades, or or platforms to integrate.

我其实觉得，代理交易相比人类交易，更适合做自营交易。

I actually think that prop trading for agents has a much better market fit than prop trading for humans.

原因在于你的代理和你的资金之间存在信任问题。

The reason is trust issues between your aggros and your capital.

简单来说，你不会愿意拿一大笔资金去冒险，交给一个机器人或代理，但你很乐意给它一个测试，比如付500美元，然后最终让它去交易一大笔资金。

Like, put simply, you do not wanna risk a harmony care of your capital with a bot or an agent, but you're happy to give it, like, a test that you're gonna pay $500 and then eventually get him to trade harmony care.

所以这对算法交易者来说是一个常见的痛点，而自营交易解决了这个问题，这也是为什么现在这个领域是自营交易中增长最快的部分。

So that's a common pain point for algo traders and and prop trading solve this, and that's why today is the segment of property that has grown the most.

你能跟我聊聊你对那个未来的愿景是什么样的吗？

Can you talk me through a little bit about what your vision of that future looks like?

就像你说的，现在30%的交易量来自机器人或代理。

Like you said, like, 30% of the traffic today is bots or agents.

如果这个30%上升到95%甚至99%，你觉得这是趋势吗？人类会不会开始把交易交给代理？

If that number 30% rises to 95, 99%, do you think that's the direction of travel here that humans will begin to turn over trading to agents?

那会是什么样子呢？

And then what does that look like?

是不是就像我把钱包交给一个代理，它用这套基础设施，我根本不用碰？

Am I just like, you know, giving my wallet to an agent and it's it's using this infrastructure and I never touch it?

在你看来，那个世界是什么样的？

Like, what's that world look like in your mind?

哦，我觉得我以前也做过一些财富管理。

Oh, I think when I also did some wealth managements in the past.

以前你有一个四万零六十的投资组合，会配置债券和股票。

And when, you know, you had this this $40.60 portfolio in the past, like, being exposed to bonds and stocks.

我觉得这会转向由人类驱动的配置和由机器人和代理驱动的配置。

I think this is gonna shift to allocations that's gonna be driven by humans and allocations that's gonna be driven by bots and agents.

所以我觉得未来十年，你会看你的投资组合里有多少是由代理控制的，有多少是由机器人和人类控制的。

So I think we'll in the next ten years, you'll you'll you'll view your portfolio as how much of it is controlled by agents and how much of it is controlled by by by bots, like agents and and humans.

我不觉得会完全对等，可能五五开吧。

I don't think maybe it's gonna be on par, maybe fifty fifty.

我仍然认为人类在资本配置中会扮演重要角色，尤其是在交易方面，因为交易也是一种关乎自尊的游戏。

I still do think that humans will play a big role in, capital allocation, specifically for trading, because trading is also an ego game.

比如，人们交易是因为他们想证明自己是对的，觉得自己能对并且能战胜市场，而把钱交给机器人，作为交易者感觉就完全不一样了。

Like, people trade because they wanna be right, like, feel like they can be right and beat the markets, whereas just putting money in a bot just hits very different as a as a trader.

而且我觉得你很难对自己的机器人有信心，相信它能长期表现良好，而如果你作为个人交易者有优势，你知道自己的优势能持续，或者至少你有能力去适应。

And I I I do feel like it's gonna be hard for you to be confident about your bot to be able to perform over time, whereas if you have an edge as a personal trader, you know your edge can persist over time, or at least you have an ability to adapt.

所以我的看法是，随着时间推移，你会把你的投资组合看作是人类决策和智能体决策的组合，但我不认为它会超过50%的比例。

So my view is you'll see your portfolio over time as a portfolio of human decisions and then agent decisions, but then I don't see it evolve more than 50%.

即使我们谈论私人财富管理，比如家族办公室，你想要的也是某种问责机制。

Even when we talk about private wealth management for the or, like, family offices, what you want is some kind of accountability.

问题是，谁来为你的回撤负责？

And the issue is who is gonna justify your drawdown?

你对前沿模型有多信任？

How much do you trust Frontier Model?

你会把责任归咎于市场本身吗？

You know, will you put the blame on the nature?

也不至于。

Not so much.

而且说到大额交易，你基本上需要有人来负责，我觉得目前还不能把代理提升到那个水平。

And when it comes to bet big trades, you basically want to have someone accountable, and I don't feel like you can bring agents to that level today.

好的。

Okay.

我想听听你对预测市场的看法，因为我的理解是——当然你得帮我补充一些细节——看起来你们接下来要扩展到预测市场，并且为人类和AI代理提供账户。

I wanna get your thoughts on prediction markets because my understanding of this and you'll have to fill in some details for me, but it looks to me like you're trying to expand into prediction markets next and offering accounts to humans and AI agents.

但从我最近看到的很多基准测试和试验来看，AI代理到目前为止，据我所知，在预测市场领域还没有展现出任何优势。

But it seems like from a lot of the recent benchmarks and trials that I've seen that AI agents haven't yet, as far as I know, exhibited any kind of advantage in the prediction market space yet.

我很好奇你觉得这个趋势会不会持续，还是说随着时间推移，AI代理会变得比人类在预测市场上强很多很多？另外，我也挺想听听你对预测市场的整体策略。

And I'm curious if you think that trend holds, or do you think over time, AI agents are going to get to a point where they are much, much better than human beings at prediction markets and, you know, just kind of interested to hear your your strategy on prediction markets overall.

如果我们把机器人和代理在平台上的表现和人类对比，它们现在确实往往比人类表现更好。

If we transpose the behavior of bots and agents versus humans on a platform, they tend to outperform humans today.

代理的通过率接近20%，而人类是16%。

Pass rate agents is close to 20% and humans is 16%.

所以关键在于有多少次进化被通过了，我们认为这是一个显著的进步。

So it's about how many evolutions are passed and we think that's a notable step up.

而且我们认为这也会延伸到预测市场，因为要做好自营交易，你必须擅长风险管理。

And we think this is going to transpose to prediction markets too because to be good at prop trading, you have to be good at risk management.

而通常在这种情况下，人的自尊心会介入，比如你设了一个止损点，然后你会想，嗯，我给它一点缓冲，不想承担这个损失。

And that's typically where as a human ego comes into the equation where, for example, you have a stop loss at a given level and you're like, well, I'm to give it some buffer, don't want to take the loss.

而代理则是毫无情绪地看待风险管理。

Whereas an agent is viewing risk management with no emotion.

所以在自营交易中没有情绪实际上是非常有利的。

So having no emotion in prop trading is actually very positive.

所以我认为仅凭这一点，通过率会更高。

So I think just based on this, pass rate is going to be better.

而且我认为有充分的理由说明，在预测市场中，那些能获取大量数据的人，比如代理或大型语言模型，可能会在市场上找到某种优势。

And I think there are strong arguments to be made that for prediction markets, people that have access to tons of data, so agents or LLM, could find some kind of edge on the markets.

或者如果你说的是非常复杂的代理，它们可以在不同市场之间进行套利。

Or if you're talking about very sophisticated agents, do some arbitrage between markets.

这些预测市场的交易对流动性很好，但还处于非常早期的阶段。

Those prediction market listings are very liquid and still very nascent.

所以通常这时候，在机器人层面会有最多的创新。

So that's typically when when you have the most amount of innovation at a at a bot level.

我确实认为我们会看到类似的情况发生，比如更高的通过率、更大的回报、更好的风险管理，但这还有待观察。

I do think we'll see similar things transpose like higher pass rate, bigger payouts, much better risk managements on the bot, but that's yet to be seen.

实际上，我们还没有确定预测市场的上线时间。

We actually don't have an ETA for pretty market launch.

我们原本计划大约一个季度前就推出这个。

We were meant to launch this about a quarter ago at this stage.

但我们真的想专注于福利，是的。

But we really wanted to focus on perks and yeah.

我觉得大概十月底我们就能上线这个。

I think, like, end of October is probably when we go live with with this.

你知道，加密货币的一个奇怪之处在于，你待得越久，账户似乎就越多。

You know, one of the weird things about crypto is that the longer you're in it, the more accounts you seem to end up with.

你在一个地方买入，在另一个地方交易，又在别的地方赚取收益。

You buy in one place, trade somewhere else, earn yield somewhere else.

如果你真的需要资金，最后可能不得不卖掉你本来想留着的资产。

And if you actually need capital, you end up having to sell something that you probably wanted to keep.

这就是为什么 Milk Road 要和 Nexo 合作的原因。

That's why we at Milk Road are partnering with Nexo.

他们能把所有这些操作都放在同一个账户里搞定。

These guys keep the whole thing under one account.

你可以在这里买卖加密货币，让已有的资产赚取利息，甚至用本金做抵押借款而无需卖出。所有这些功能都集中在一个平台、一个账户里，就在 Nexo。

You can buy, trade crypto, earn interest on what you already hold, and even borrow against your capital without having to sell All in one spot, all in one account, all on Nexo.

所以如果你需要流动性，但不想平仓，或者你手里已经有加密货币，还想让它发挥更大作用，我觉得 Nexo 值得你花点时间了解一下。

So if you need liquidity, but you don't wanna give up your position or you're already holding crypto and you wanna be able to do more with it, I think Nexo is worth your time.

我们很喜欢和他们合作。

We love working with them.

我想你也会这么觉得。

I think you will too.

告诉他们，是 Milk Road 推荐你来的。

Tell them Milk Road sent you.

好的。

Okay.

所以我想问的问题是，关于最近市场上出现的这些各种金融工具。

So I think the the question I have here is just around all these different financial primitives that have come to market.

就像你刚才说的，你觉得在永续合约交易中，AI 代理的表现明显优于人类，而且你认为这种优势也会延续到预测市场领域。

Like, as you said, you're seeing what you consider a significant outperformance from the agents versus the humans on perps, and you think that will hold for prediction markets.

你觉得如果给智能体提供更多期权交易的选择，比如让它们能接触这类衍生品，它们是不是能在各个方面都继续保持优势？还是说你认为未来某些衍生品或产品会比其他更受欢迎？

Do you think that if we gave agents more options trading options, for example, and access to those kinds of derivatives that they would continue to outperform across, like, all of these things, Or do you think that there are certain derivatives or or products that'll be more popular in the future versus others?

因为现在人类用这些工具都是针对不同场景的，而且每种都有各自的优缺点。

Because, like, right now, human beings use these all for different use cases, and they all have, you know, different pros and cons.

我很想听听你的看法，随着越来越多的AI智能体开始参与这些产品的交易，未来的格局会怎么演变。

And I'm curious your view on on what that evolving landscape looks like as we see more AI agents start to engage with these products.

目前市面上有很多智能体主要只做零延迟期权（zero dte options），而且它们在这一点上表现相当不错。

You have a lot of adros that are today on, like, zero d t options, and they tend to do quite well there.

我不是期权专家，但我觉得零日期期权，就是那种当天到期的期权，是他们能占优势的地方。

I'm not like an options pro, but, like, zero d t options is where, you know, the zero day expiry options is where I think they can have an edge.

但我觉得目前最大的优势还是在自营交易上，主要是因为那里的风险管理定义得非常清楚，我手头的数据也最多。

But where I see the I guess the best edge today and that's where I have the most amount of data is in prop trading, mostly because of how well defined the risk management is.

你可以说期权也是一样的，因为你付了权利金，在简单的期权里，这就是你损失的。

You can argue that options are the same because you pay the premium and that's, you know, in like simple options, that's what you lose.

但也就这样了。

But that's that's really it.

我不认为机器人因为能接触到更多数据，就能在所有市场上都表现得更好。

I I don't think like bots can essentially be better on all market because they got access to a lot more data.

而且我觉得，只要有足够的时间和足够的回测，它们确实能从市场上挖掘出一些优势。

And I think given enough time and enough enough backtest, they can extract some kind of edge on on the on the market.

但问题在于，你在市场上的任何优势都会随着时间慢慢消失。

The issue you'll have is any edge that you have in the market erodes over time.

比如，去年管用的策略，今年可能就不灵了，因为优势是会被套利的。

Like, something that worked for a year, it's not gonna work next year because, like, edge is is gapped.

你会发现，如今传统市场中的大部分优势其实都体现在硬件上。

And the issue you'll find is that most of the edge today in traditional markets are found in hardware.

所以基本上就是延迟的问题，你知道的，就是你进入市场的速度有多快。

So it's basically latency that you have, you know, how fast can you be on the market.

所以我觉得本质上来说，机器人在流动性差、参与者少的市场上会更容易获得优势。

So I think intrinsically that bots will have an easier time on the illiquid markets and markets where you do not have many participants.

而且通常，比如预测市场，前四五个预测市场之间就有大量的套利机会。

And typically, like prediction markets, for example, you have a ton of arbitrage opportunity between, like, the top four or five prediction markets.

如果你没有特别多的资金，在这些市场里你的资产可以增长得很快。

And if you don't have, like, an insane amount of capital, you can grow your equity quite fast in those markets.

我2024年确实在预测市场上这么做了。

And I actually did it in 2024 on on pretty markets.

那恭喜你做到了。

Well, congratulations on doing that.

我想把话题拉回Proper，不过谢谢你的分享。

I I wanna bring the conversation back to Proper, but thank you for your thoughts on that.

我觉得这些都特别有意思，听一个整个职业生涯都在做交易的人聊AI代理怎么改变这一切，真的挺有趣的。

I think all of this is fascinating, and it's interesting to hear, you know, somebody who's spent his whole career in trading talk about how how that changes with AI agents.

之前计划为Proper生态系统的代币Proper举办一次代币生成活动，但后来推迟了。

There was a a planned token generation event for a token called Proper for the Proper ecosystem that's been pushed back.

据我了解，你们现在打算先筹集500万美元的储备金，并完成五个新的集成，然后再推进代币生成活动。

And to my understanding, you're trying to target a $5,000,000 treasury reserve and five new integrations now before you go forward with the the token generation event.

你能跟我详细讲讲这里的计划吗？发生了什么，为什么推迟，现在进展如何？

Could you just talk through me talk through for me a little bit about the plans here, what happened, why the delay, and and what the progress is on this now?

其实，Proper整体上发展得非常快，简直惊人。

So, I mean, Proper overall has been an insanely fast growing journey.

我们大约五个月前上线，营收达到了380万美元。

We've launched about five months ago, 3.7 or 3,800,000 revenue.

按年化算的话，每年大概有1600万美元的收入。

If you annualize that, that's about 16,000,000 of revenue a year.

我们可能是链上世界第二大加密自营交易公司，市场份额大概有70%。

Probably the second second biggest crypto prop firm in in the onchain world, we have, like, 70% market share.

所以我们正努力以非常灵活的方式应对各种挑战。

So we're trying to navigate the the fields in a way that's pretty agile.

情况一直在变，而且变化都有其原因，我们也在从市场中汲取大量经验。

And so things change and they change for a reason and we're also learning a lot about the markets.

你之前聊过公司的核心业务。

You've discussed about the motes of the firm.

最关键的是，每当我们要发币的时候……

What's key is that whenever you launch a token, I.

也就是说，更多的人能享受到公司成长的红利，而且公司足够稳固，护城河能长期保持。

E, like, a lot more people have access to the upside of the company, that you're solid enough so that your mote persists over time.

最冒险的做法是发个代币，但之后却没能建立起长期的护城河。

The risky thing to do is to launch a token but that's but then do not have a mote over time.

我确实说过分发渠道靠的是护城河，但你得确保这一点是稳的。

And I did say distribution is on moats, but you want to have a guarantee on this.

所以就像我之前说的，到年底我们大概会有50个集成项目，这对我来说就足以围绕我们的分发体系建立起护城河了。

So for example, as I said, by end of year we should have about 50 integration and that to me is sufficient to build a moat about around our distribution.

因为比如说，如果我们有50个集成，那就意味着后续的集成，比如第51个，会容易得多，因为我们已经有了和加密领域最好的终端和品牌合作的记录。

Because for example, if we have 50 integration, that means the incremental integration, like n plus one, is gonna be much easier because you have the track record of working with the best terminals and and brands in in the crypto space.

第二个方面是我们储备了多少现金。

The second aspect is how much cash we have in reserve.

今天，基本上从第一天起就是自力更生的。

Today, has been bootstrapped essentially from day one.

我们获得的外部资金很少，但我们认为拥有强大的资产负债表是一种护城河。

We've received very little external funding, but we think that having a strong balance sheet is a moat.

比如，像500万美元的资产负债表，或者说500万美元的现金，能让我们灵活调整数字，改变定价，尝试更多创新。

For example, like a 5,000,000 balance sheet or, like, 5,000,000 cash is gonna enable us to play around with our numbers, change the pricing, try to innovate a lot more.

今天，Breakout是第一名。

Today, breakout is number one.

假设我们想追赶Breakout，那我们可能需要在经济上承担更多风险。

Let's say we want to go after breakouts, then we might want to take on more more risks about our economics.

如果你没有足够的现金缓冲，那你基本上就卡住了。

And if you don't have a sufficient cash buffer, then you're pretty much stuck.

在资本市场方面，一旦代币发行了，再融资就难多了。

In terms of capital markets, it's much harder to raise capital once you have a token that's launched.

所以你得在公司的整体战略上非常谨慎，这就是我们设定这两个指标的原因。

So you want to be very strategic about the most of the firm and that's why we have those two metrics.

我们这么做是为了让公司有足够的实力，这样一旦代币发行，就能推动我们的飞轮效应。

So we're doing it so that the firm is major enough to, like, kick our flywheels whenever we have a token that's launched.

听起来你是在代币发行之前，先努力打造一个稳健且可持续的业务，这在加密货币领域是个大胆的想法，我对此表示赞赏。

So it sounds like you're trying to build a robust and sustainable business before you launch your token, which is a wild idea in crypto, so I commend you for that.

你觉得你设定的那些年终目标，比如那些指标，现实吗？还是说那更像是一种猜测或估计？

Do you think that that year end target for some of these, you know, metrics that you're shooting for is realistic, or is that like a kind of like a, I don't know, like a guess or an estimate?

或者说，你心里对这个目标有多确定？

Or, like, how how firm is that target in your mind?

那500万的目标，我们目前大概有130万。

The 5,000,000 we were we have 1,300,000, I think, to date.

我们正在筹集大约250万。

We're raising around of about 2,500,000.

基本上百分之百的收益都会进入那个储备金。

Pretty much 100% of the proceeds go into that reserve.

所以对我来说，关键是一个季度能产生多少EBITDA，也就是我们能从业务中赚到多少额外现金。

So to me, it's about in a quarter's time how much EBITDA, so how much excess cash can we earn from the business.

我们认为这个季度能产生大约150万的额外现金。

We think that we can have in excess cash over the quarter about 1,500,000.

如果我们能筹到250万，那么这个季度的额外现金就能达到450万。

And so if we raise to 2,500,000, we get excess cash of 4,500,000 for the quarter.

那加起来大约是400万。

Then that amounts to about 4,000,000.

目前我们有大约130万的额外现金。

Today we have about 1,300,000 in excess cash.

这样加起来就达到了你500万的目标。

So that's adds up to your 5,000,000 target.

至于整合方面，我们的整个管道基本上就是15个客户，而且我们年底前的整合计划应该足以覆盖那五个。

And on the integration side, that's pretty much pretty much our whole pipeline is 15 clients, and we probably have enough integration schedule for year end to account for the five.

所以我们觉得这会发生。

So we think this is gonna happen.

但也有可能不会发生。

Now there's a will where it doesn't.

如果不会发生，那就意味着可能出了什么问题，比如我们承担了一些风险，压缩了利润率，但我们预计未来三个季度不会出现这种情况。

It would mean to it would mean that something is going wrong on the like, potentially, we took on quite some risks on like we we compress our margin, which we don't expect is going to happen through the next three quarters.

那意味着我们打算少筹一些资金，但这不在目前的计划里。

Well, that means that we're trying to raise less, which is not in the current plan.

所以这意味着我们不打算筹款，这也不在计划中。

So that means we we do not intend to raise, which is also not in in the plans.

但就像所有事情一样，可能会有变化。

But as with everything, there are things that might change.

也许有人会进来，我们就得采取激进策略，减少现金储备。

Maybe someone's going to come in, we'll have to be aggressive and reduce our cash reserve.

但目前来看，我们对年底的目标非常坚定，而且实际上我们预计会提前达到这个目标。

But as it stands, we're pretty firm on on on our target for for year end and in fact we're we're saying that we're going to reach this point earlier.

你给自己定的另一个目标是达到一千万美元的收入目标，而且你每天都在发帖或直播，记录你朝着这个目标前进的过程，我觉得这非常值得称赞，也非常公开。

Another goal that you've set for yourself is reaching a revenue target of $10,000,000, and you have been posting or live streaming every single day as you progress towards that goal, which is I think very commendable and very public.

所以，你能这样做真的很棒。

So good for you for doing that.

但跟我聊聊你决定公开记录这段通往一千万美元目标的旅程吧，你现在进展到哪一步了？

But talk to me through the decision to to publicly, you know, like, I guess, like, journal about this this journey towards this $10,000,000 target, and and how far are you on that progression now?

当我刚开始做Proper的时候，链上自营交易根本不存在。

When we when I first started Proper, onchain prop trading was nothing.

那时候连这个词都没有。

Like, it was not even a term.

我就说，好吧。

And I said, okay.

我们要全力以赴。

We're we're going to go all in.

我给自己大概十八个月的时间。

I gave myself, like, essentially eighteen months.

我说，好，一年半时间，我全力以赴。

I said, okay, a year and a half, I go all in.

看看我能走多远。

And let's see let's see how far I can go.

我当时坐在办公桌前想，我平时不太习惯面对镜头，但我想，要是能把 Proper 从第一天到营收一千万的过程都记录下来，那该多酷啊。

And I was just at my desk and I thought I'm not typically, I'm not the guy to be comfortable on camera, but I thought, you know, how cool would that be to to journal Proper day day one to to 10,000,000 revenue?

其实营收一千万这个数字本身没那么重要。

10,000,000 of of revenue is not super relevant.

其实这个目标并不算特别夸张。

Like, in it's not like a crazy crazy target.

我当时心想，行吧。

But I thought, okay.

觉得这样挺不错的。

It'd be it'd be nice.

而且我觉得它还是有一定挑战性的。

And I think it's challenging enough.

所以我有了这个想法，我记得那是二月中旬。

So I had this thought, and I remember it was mid February.

我说，不到三十分钟后，我就说，好。

I said like, less than thirty minutes after, I said, okay.

我们来做第一场直播吧。

Let's do the first stream.

所以你可以去看第一场直播，看看那有多不专业。

So you can watch the first stream and and look at how unprofessional that was.

现在还是很不专业，但对我来说，就像你交易一样，有时候人们会在Nex上记录他们的交易。

Still very unprofessional but just to me just like you trade, like when you trade you you sometimes people post on Nex to journal their their trades.

对我来说，这是我沟通如何打造Proper的一种方式。

And to me, it's it's a way in which I communicate about how I build Proper.

而且从根本上说，现在的PropStream是有问题的。

And also fundamentally, the PropStream today is broken.

比如，很难信任PropStream，因为它们不透明，而且用户体验很差。

Like, it's hard to trust PropStreams because they're opaque and they're they're they're a bad user.

你对他们的财务状况一无所知。

You don't know anything about their financials.

然后我就想，好吧。

And I and I thought, okay.

那为什么不干脆让创始人直接展示一下实际情况呢？你会看到我不会跑路的。

Just why not have the founder just show what it's like and you'll see I'm not gonna run away.

我其实几乎每天都在直播。

I'm I'm actually here almost every single day on stream.

所以如果你有问题，我觉得这种与团队的近距离接触对用户来说是非常有益的。

So if you have questions and I think having this proximity to to the team is is super beneficial to to users.

而且这不是很多人愿意做的事情。

It's also not something that a lot of people are willing to do.

比如，你可能会看到很多新公司冒出来，但你能找到另一家做每日直播的公司吗？

Like, you you might you might see ton of new firms coming up, but find me another firm that does, like, day streams.

这已经很难了，更不用说还有创始人愿意公开透明地展示他们在做什么。

It's gonna be super hard though, let alone just a founder that's being open and public about what they build.