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最近，我特别注意摄入足够的蛋白质，同时避免把零食吃成一顿沉重的正餐。
Lately, I've been really intentional about getting enough protein without accidentally turning a snack into something that feels heavier than a meal.
这正是我一直在吃David蛋白棒的原因。
And that's exactly why I've been reaching for David protein bars.
我最喜欢的是咸花生酱味，真的感觉像是一种享受。
My go to is the salted peanut butter, and it honestly feels like such a treat.
它的口感柔软有嚼劲，咸度恰到好处，能让我保持饱腹感，无论是录制节目、在咖啡馆工作，还是忙于孩子的事情时都适用。
The texture is soft and doughy with just the right amount of saltiness that it actually keeps me full, whether I'm recording episodes, working from a coffee house, or in between kid logistics.
David与我不同之处在于它的营养成分。
What sets David apart from me is the nutrition.
每根蛋白棒含有28克蛋白质，仅150卡路里，且不含糖。
Each gold bar has 28 grams of protein, only a 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
我试过的大多数蛋白棒要么蛋白质含量不足，要么热量和糖分过高，但David完全颠覆了这一点。
Most protein bars I've tried either skimp on protein or packed with extra calories and sugar, but David flips that completely.
它在不牺牲口感的前提下，以最少的热量提供了最多的蛋白质。
It delivers the most protein for the fewest calories without sacrificing taste.
我喜欢在均衡的全食物饮食中拥有简单又满足的零食，尤其是在忙碌的日子里，需要快速但又有意选择的食物时。
I love having something that's easy and satisfying as a part of a balanced whole food routine, especially on busy days when I need something quick but still intentional.
别光听我说。
Don't just take my word for it.
自己去买一个吧。
Get your own.
David 正为我的听众提供特别优惠。
David is offering my listeners a special deal.
前往 davidprotein.com/minimalist，购买四盒即可免费获得第五盒。
Buy four cartons and get the fifth free when you go to davidprotein.com/minimalist.
网址是 davidprotein.com/minimalist。
That's davidprotein.com/minimalist.
如果你更喜欢线下购买，David 已经正式在全国沃尔玛门店上架。
And if you'd rather shop in person, David has officially launched nationwide at Walmart.
只需在 walmart.com 上使用门店查询功能，找到离你最近的门店即可。
Just check out the store locator on walmart.com to find the one closest to you.
为什么环保生活被搞得如此复杂、抽象且难以实现？它看起来要么很苛刻，要么很昂贵，或者很不方便。
Why is eco friendly living made to be so heady and cerebral and difficult as far as accessing that, or it's it looks really crunchy or it looks expensive or inconvenient.
我本来只打算坚持一个月。
And I really only was going to do it for one month.
我只是想看看自己能不能做到。
I just kinda wanted to see if I could do it.
第一周有点痛苦，我想说，那是因为我对事物的看法发生了转变。
And the first week was kind of painful, I would say, just because it was a shifting of how I thought about things.
我们拥有的东西，其实反过来掌控了我们，而我们只是这些物品的库存管理员。
The things that we have, you know, the things we own own us, and we're like the inventory manager of those things.
我们是怎么从当初有意识地购买物品、修理物品、长期保存并保持良好状态的人，变成了如今在网上冲动购物、买些劣质到无法修复、最终直接进垃圾填埋场的东西的人？
How did we go from being people who bought things very intentionally, repaired those things, kept them for a really long time in pretty good repair to people who literally go online and impulse shop crap that is shoddily made, can never be repaired, and will hit the landfill?
尤其是女性，长期以来一直被视为理想的营销对象。
And specifically as women, we have long been the dream population to market to.
我们不仅在美国，而且在全球范围内都拥有显著的消费购买力。
We hold a significant amount of consumer purchasing power, not just in The United States, but globally.
我把这称为条件式消费，有时甚至是被迫消费，因为它是整个操作系统中一种极其隐蔽的部分。
I call it conditioned consumerism and in some cases, coerced consumerism because it is such an insidious part of the operating system.
我需要这个。
I need this.
然后你就说：‘姐妹，啥？’
And it's like, girl, what?
我会暂时开玩笑地让自己相信某些东西是我需要的，或是必需品，而实际上它们根本不是。
I temporarily joke myself into thinking I need things or that things are necessities when they are actually not.
近两年来，阿什莉·派珀挑战自己不购买任何新品。
For nearly two years, Ashley Piper challenged herself to buy nothing new.
在这个过程中，她还清了债务，减少了杂物，实现了目标，并变得比以往任何时候都更健康、更快乐。
And in the process, she got out of debt, cut clutter, crushed her goals, and became healthier and happier than ever.
所有那些她一直想做却从未有时间做的事，因为她一直在无意识地刷手机、购物、花钱和焦虑。
All the things she'd always wanted to do but never had time to because she was mindlessly scrolling, shopping, spending, and stressing.
阿什莉今天来分享她的新书《无新物》，这是一本三十天的可持续生活指南，极具实践性，令人耳目一新且切实可行。
Ashley is here to share about her new book, No New Things, a thirty day guide to sustainable living that's radically practical refreshingly doable.
我们还探讨了消费主义的根源、消费行为背后的心理学，以及如何通过建立社区来替代强迫性消费。
We also explore the roots of consumerism, the psychology behind our spending habits, and how building community can replace compulsive consumption.
无论你是被物品淹没，还是仅仅渴望一种更有意的生活，这一集都充满了洞见与启发。
Whether you're drowning in stuff or just craving a more intentional life, this episode is packed with insight and inspiration.
我不确定我是否可以说我嘉宾的这些话，但我还是要说，这是我很长时间以来最喜爱的访谈之一。
I don't know if I'm allowed to say this about my guests, but I will say that this is one of my favorite interviews in quite some time.
与艾什莉交谈是一种享受。
Ashley was a joy to talk to.
她平易近人，见解深刻，尤其对我国消费主义的历史有着独到的见解。
She's down to earth and incredibly insightful, especially about the history of our consumerism in this country.
因此，我非常感激她今天能来和我进行这场对话。
So I'm so grateful that she joined me to have this conversation today.
但在进入节目之前，我想感谢今天的赞助商。
But before we get into the episode, I'd love to thank today's sponsors.
如果其中任何一家引起了你的兴趣，一定要去了解一下。
And if any of them pique your interest, be sure to check them out.
最后，如果你还没有为这个播客留下评分或评论，请暂停一下这一集。
And then lastly, if you've yet to leave a rating and or review for the podcast, pause the episode.
这只需要三十秒或更短的时间，是你帮助播客获得更多曝光的最佳方式之一。
It takes thirty seconds or less and it is one of the best ways that you can help the podcast continue to gain visibility.
提前感谢那些已经这样做的朋友们。
So thank you so much in advance to those of you that have done this.
对于那些长期收听却尚未留下评论的朋友们，你们还在等什么呢？
And for those of you that have been listening for a long time and have yet to do so, what are you waiting for?
真的，只需要三十秒或更短的时间。
Truly, it takes thirty seconds or less.
好了，接下来让我们开始与阿什莉·派珀的这一集对话。
And with that, let's get into this episode with Ashley Piper.
阿什莉，非常感谢你今天加入我。
Well, Ashley, thanks so much for joining me today.
我迫不及待想聊聊你的新书。
I can't wait to talk about your new book.
这本书名为《无新物》，是一本彻底简单的三十天指南，帮助你省钱、拯救地球并保持心理健康。
It's called No New Things, a radically simple thirty day guide to saving money, the planet, and your sanity.
感谢你今天加入我。
Thank you for joining me today.
非常感谢你邀请我，黛安。
Thank you so much for having me, Diane.
当然。
Absolutely.
好的。
Okay.
我通常会让人们简单介绍一下自己，但让我们直接进入你的故事吧。
So I usually have people give a brief introduction of who they are, but let's just kinda jump into your story.
可持续性。
Sustainability.
这份热情是从哪里开始的？
Where did this passion start from?
嗯。
Yeah.
这是个很好的问题。
That's a great question.
我有时也会问自己同样的问题。
Sometimes I ask myself the same thing.
我就想，这到底是怎么发生的？
I'm like, how did this happen?
因为大约十五年前，我过着完全不同的生活。
Because I I was kind of leading a completely different life about, I would say, fifteen years ago.
我曾担任过十年的政治战略顾问。
So I was a political strategist for about a decade.
在这个我非常热爱的职业中，我曾在政府工作，后来在一家政治战略公司工作。
And in that career, which I really loved, I was working in government, and then I was working at a political strategy firm.
我有一系列客户，但无法自己选择。
I had a variety of clients whom I could not choose for myself.
你会被分配到一些客户，没错。
You kind of get assigned clients Yeah.
然后为他们的竞选活动、策略以及那些方方面面的工作提供信息支持。
And was working on doing messaging for their campaigns and strategy and, you know, all that good stuff.
同时，我对可持续发展产生了强烈个人热情和兴趣。
And I, at the same time, became really personally passionate and interested in, I should say, sustainability.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那时我刚成为素食者，这成了我进入可持续发展领域的切入点，让我开始关注饮食、穿着、购物方式如何影响地球和动物。
And at the time I was like a little baby vegan, and that was kind of my gateway drug into sustainability and the intersection of like how we eat and what we wear and what we buy and how that impacts the planet and animals.
于是我几乎完全沉浸其中。
And so I I just became so almost like consumed by it.
每天下班后，我觉得工作没什么成就感，就回家想办法调整生活方式，让它更可持续。
Every day after work, which I found my job kind of unfulfilling, I was going home and finding ways to tweak my lifestyle to make it more sustainable.
这对我来说非常有趣。
And that was really interesting to me.
到了某个时候，我希望能把它变成我的人生目标、热情所在和职业。
And it got to the point where I wanted to make it kind of my life and my life's passion and my job.
所以那时我发现，所有这些可持续的生活习惯其实都挺容易做到的，而且给我生活带来了巨大的额外收益。
So I I at that time, I found that all of these sustainable habits were things that were actually pretty easy and had, like, a huge ancillary payoff in my life.
当我逐步实施这些所谓的可持续替代方案时，发生了许多其他积极的变化。
There were so many other things that were happening as I was instituting some of these more, quote, unquote, sustainable swaps.
我节省了钱。
I was saving money.
我变得更健康了。
I was getting healthier.
我的生活压力变小了，感觉自己正在为一件令人担忧、常让人感到无能为力的事情贡献解决方案。
My life felt less stressed, and I felt like I was being part of a solution to something that was pretty scary and a lot of times can make folks feel really helpless.
所以我心想，为什么这些信息不能更普及呢？
And so I thought, why isn't this information, like, more accessible?
为什么环保生活要被搞得这么深奥、抽象、难以接触呢？
Like, why why is eco friendly living made to be so, heady and cerebral and difficult as far as accessing that?
或者它看起来很粗糙，或者显得昂贵且不方便。
Or it's it looks really crunchy or it looks expensive or inconvenient.
所以大约十五年前，我离开了政治策略领域的工作，当时我并没有明确的计划如何进入可持续发展领域。
And so around fifteen years ago, I left my career in political strategy, and I didn't really have much of a blueprint for how I was going to get into sustainability.
那时，这个话题远不像现在这样流行，也不太可能成为一份职业机会。
It certainly wasn't as popular of a topic or as prevalent as kind of a job opportunity as it is now.
而我只是知道，我想让这些信息更主流化。
And, I just knew I wanted to bring the messaging more mainstream.
我知道自己至少在传播信息方面很在行，因为我的职业生涯中一直都在做这件事。
I knew I was at least good at messaging since I'd been doing that for a lot of my career.
于是我开始为不同的媒体平台免费撰写文章，介绍如何过上更环保的生活。
And so I just started writing, like, pro bono articles for different media outlets around how to live a more eco friendly lifestyle.
在多年里，我一边做这些，一边在瑜伽馆打扫厕所，完全是白手起家，然后我才开始向电视制片人推销自己的想法。
And, I did that for many years while also, like, cleaning toilets at a yoga studio and just kind of I started completely from scratch, and then I started pitching television producers.
我会在推特上找到他们的联系方式。
I would find their contact information, you know, on, like, Twitter.
现在回想起来，这听起来真的很像跟踪狂。
Which sounds really stalkery now that I think about it.
但我当时非常坚定、执着且充满热情，而且我在这些领域没有任何人脉。
But I was just I was really determined and tenacious and excited, and I didn't have contacts in those areas.
我没有正式的公关联系人或相关经验。
I didn't have, like, formal public relations contacts or experience.
于是我开始给人们发消息，试着说：嘿。
And I just started messaging folks and trying to kinda be like, hey.
我向他们推销，比如我可以做一个片段，教大家如何找到未进行动物测试的产品，或者通过更环保的饮食方式降低杂货账单，等等，只要是可持续发展相关的内容都行。
Make a pitch for you know, I could do a segment on showing folks how to find products that aren't tested on animals or how to reduce their grocery bill by eating more zero waste or whatever it was and anything under the umbrella of sustainability.
然后，几年后，我在这里的芝加哥遇到了一位制片人，他说：好吧。
And and then, you know, a few years later, I got a producer here in Chicago who was like, alright.
我们明天有个档期空出来了。
We had a cancellation for tomorrow.
所以如果你能明天早上7点准备好过来，我就让你上节目。
So if you can be ready to come on tomorrow at 7AM, I will let you on.
那是我首次涉足电视领域，主题是可持续发展。
And that was kind of my first foray into television, around sustainability.
是的。
Yeah.
从那以后，我已经制作了大约312个关于环保生活的电视片段。
And then since then, I've done around 312 TV segments around eco friendly living.
所以现在你可能会看到更多这类内容，但当时电视上真正谈论如何过更可持续生活并让其变得通俗易懂的人真的很少。
So I I feel like now you see more of those, but I there there really weren't a lot of folks talking about how to live a more sustainable life and making it accessible on television.
所以我想，这大概就是我早期的成名之处了。
So I guess that's my my kinda early claim to fame there.
但这就是我进入这个领域的过程，我基本上是边骑车边造车。
But that's how I got into it, and it just I kinda built the bike as I rode it essentially.
于是我开始为对可持续发展感兴趣的企业提供咨询服务。
And so I I was started consulting for companies who were interested in sustainability.
我在大学和研究生层面教授可持续发展营销。
I teach at a college level and a grad school level on marketing for sustainability.
然后在2018年，我的第一本书出版了，我不知道在这里能不能说脏话，但书名里确实有个脏字。
And then in 2018, my first book, I don't know if I can swear on here, but there's a swear word in the title, came out.
这就像我刚开始这段旅程时一直想要的那份环保生活手册。
And that was kind of like the eco friendly handbook I'd always wanted when I began my journey.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
And yeah.
从那以后，事情就像滚雪球一样，我干脆自称是可持续发展专家。
So from there, it's it's kind of snowballed into I just call myself a sustainability expert.
这样称呼挺简洁的。
It's a tidy way to get into that.
但进入可持续发展领域，以及我个人的实践，彻底颠覆并改变了我的生活，以许多意想不到的积极方式。
But getting into sustainability and just me personally doing that completely upended and changed my life in a lot of really unexpected ways and positive ways.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当然。
Absolutely.
我不想忽略你这本书宣传中提到的一件事。
I don't wanna overlook something that was in the pitch of your book.
它写道，你曾挑战自己近两年不购买任何新品。
It says for nearly two years, you challenged yourself to buy nothing new.
我想
I wanna
深入聊聊这个，因为这真是一个巨大的挑战。
dive more into that because that is such a challenge.
我想知道你具体制定了哪些规则？
I wanna know what were the specific rules?
因为有些人会定这样的规则，但会补充说：顺便提一下，这个是允许的。
Because some people will have that rule and they're like, well, but side note, this is something that's allowed.
那么，你为自己设定了哪些规则？
So what were the rules that you set up for yourself?
然后那之后怎么样了？
And then how did that go?
当然。
Sure.
是的。
Yeah.
所以‘不买新的’这个计划，其实始于2013年，当时我只是想继续在自己的生活中践行可持续的生活方式。
So No New Things really started, again, just as a personal challenge in 2013 as I was just continuing to grow my own sustainable practices in my own home, in my own life.
我想，这会不会很有趣？
I thought, wouldn't it be fun?
现在大多数人会说：她是不是需要看心理医生？
Now most people are like, does she need psychiatric help?
因为‘这会很有趣’？
Because wouldn't it be fun?
我不知道。
I don't know.
不是每个人都会觉得这很有趣，但我心想，挑战自己一个月不买任何新东西，会不会很有趣呢？
Not everybody would think this is fun, but I thought, wouldn't it be fun to challenge myself Mhmm.
看看我是否能在有一些例外的情况下，一个月不买任何新东西。
To see if I could buy nothing new with a few caveats, of course, for a month.
最初的目标只是一个月而已。
That's that was the original intent was just for one month.
其实，我不是一个受虐狂，但我确实喜欢给自己设定一些挑战。
And really, it was I'm I'm kinda someone I'm not a masochist, but I'm kind of someone who likes to challenge myself to certain things.
我能坚持不喝咖啡一段时间吗？或者，我能先读完书架上所有的书，再看电视吗？
Can I go without coffee for a certain amount of of time, or can I, you know, read every book on my bookshelf before I watch anything on television?
那时候，我正给自己设定一些类似的任务。
These are kind of things that I was tasking myself with around that same time.
我觉得这会是一个很好的方式，来拓展自己，将我的可持续价值观付诸实践，并看看是否能养成一些让我自己都惊讶的新习惯。
And I thought this would really be a great way to stretch myself and put my sustainability values into action and and see if I adopt some new habits that are surprising to me.
所以规则是，我当然可以支付账单。
So the parameters were, I could pay my bills, of course.
这一点无法回避。
There's no getting out of that.
我可以购买食品杂货和其他最好全新购买的必需品。
And I could buy groceries and other essentials that are best purchased new.
尤其是在2013年，二手市场远没有现在这么活跃。
And especially in 2013, the secondhand market wasn't nearly as bustling as it is now.
对吧？
Right?
所以找到二手物品要困难一些。
So finding things secondhand was a little bit more difficult.
如今，如果我需要购买某些洗漱用品之类的东西，我可能实际上能在不同的平台上找到很多新品和二手货。
Nowadays, if I needed to buy certain toiletries or something, I could probably actually find a lot of them new and secondhand on different marketplaces.
但我当时没有。
But I didn't have Yeah.
比如什么‘不买东西’群，或者你可以在Poshmark上找到化妆品之类的东西。
Like a buy nothing group or even, you know, you can go on Poshmark and find cosmetics and things like that.
如果你没有坚持不买新的东西，你可能会去塞夫韦之类的地方购买。
You would otherwise maybe if you weren't doing a no new things, you would go to Sephora or something to find.
所以我有一些这样的限制，实际上，现在你经常听到很多人在做‘不买新衣服’，这很棒。
So I had some of these caveats, and really, was just you hear a lot of folks doing, like, no new clothes now, which is fantastic.
是的。
Yeah.
在2013年的时候，没多少人做‘不买新衣服’这类事情，我只是很想把这种理念扩展到我生活的方方面面。
And I wanted to I hadn't you know, in 2013, not a ton of people were doing no new clothes kind of stuff, and I just really wanted to expand that to every other aspect of my life.
所以，无论是工作需要的文件夹，还是家里需要的东西，都包括在内。
So everything from if I needed a folder for work, if I needed, something for my home.
所以这些限制主要是账单，当然。
So the caveats really were bills, obviously.
我可以花钱在体验上。
I could spend money on experiences.
比如健身房会员、去博物馆或芭蕾舞剧，或者旅行，等等，那些不属于实物的、更抽象的东西。
So a gym membership or going to the museum or the ballet or, you know, trips, whatever, the less tangible things that aren't things.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我也可以在杂货、外出就餐、捐款以及那些最好全新购买的必需品上花钱，比如内衣或经期护理用品，你知道的，这些都很合理。
And, I could also spend money on groceries, eating out, donations, and then those essential things that are best purchased new, underwear or menstrual care, whatever, you know, made sense.
当然，还有宠物护理以及照顾我家中的人和动物。
And obviously, pet care and taking care of the people and the creatures in my household as well.
我并没有坐在那里想：
I wasn't sitting there going up.
因为我在做不买新的东西，所以一个月不去看兽医。
We're not going to the vet for a month because I'm doing no new things.
这些是例外情况。
Those were the exceptions.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我其实只打算坚持一个月。
And I really only was going to do it for one month.
我只是想看看自己能不能做到。
I just kinda wanted to see if I could do it.
第一周有点痛苦，我觉得，因为这改变了我对事物的看法。
And the first week was kind of painful, I would say, just because it was a a shifting of how I thought about things.
即使在2013年，我想我们所有人对在线购物的依赖也更少。
Even in 2013, we I think we were all less conditioned to online shop.
当时在线购物更困难。
It was more difficult to online shop.
东西送达你的速度也没那么快。
Things were less immediate as far as how they'd arrive to you.
它当时并没有像今天这样成为我们生活方式的一部分。
It just wasn't as much a part of how we operate as it is today.
但我还是发现，只要我需要或想要什么，就会立刻去商店或上网寻找。
But I still found I had that impulse that if I needed something or wanted something, I immediately was going to the shop the store or I was going online to find it.
因此，不得不改变我满足需求的方式，这在第一周是一个非常有趣却又有点不舒服的练习。
And so having to sort of change the way I thought about getting my needs met was a really interesting and and a little bit uncomfortable exercise for the first week.
第一周之后，我开始明显看到一笔财务上的节省。
And then after the first week, I started to absolutely see one fiscal savings.
我的意思是，当你不再买一堆不需要的东西时，你就会发现。
Like, I mean, I would've thought when you don't buy a bunch of shit you don't need.
你的钱不再像以前那样一点一点地花掉了。
You actually see like, you know, your money doesn't drip away as much as it usually does.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我感觉压力小了。
And I felt less stressed.
我想你经常从上你节目的人那里听到这种说法。
I think you probably hear this a lot from folks who come on your show.
我们拥有的东西其实掌控着我们，我们一生都在为这些物品做库存管理。
The things we own own us, and we're like the inventory manager of those things throughout the life of those things being with us.
生活中拥有更少的东西、少买一些东西，不再被浏览、购买和布置物品的欲望所困扰，嗯。
And having fewer things and acquiring fewer things in your life and being less caught up in the pursuit of browsing and buying and, you know, merchandising things in your life Mhmm.
确实能大大减轻压力，为你的大脑腾出很多空间。
Really does alleviate a ton of stress and frees up a lot of space in your brain.
好的。
Okay.
所以你的书里分为三个部分。
So in your book, you have three different parts to it.
了解自己、了解新事物、我们是如何走到这一步的，然后是三十天挑战。
Get to know, know new things, how did we get here, and then thirty day challenge.
我很喜欢你把内容分成三十天来安排。
So I really like how you break it up into thirty days for people.
有时候这样更容易消化，尤其是对于妈妈们来说。
It's sometimes that's more digestible, especially for moms.
我们没有太多时间，所以每天能读几页就很好了。
We don't have a ton of time, so it's just nice to have a few pages to read every day.
但总之，说了这么多，我想聊聊第二部分中的一个点。
But, anyways, all that to say, I wanna just touch on something in part two.
消费主义具有传染性。
Consumerism is contagious.
那是其中一章。
That's one of the chapters there.
你为什么认为这是真的？
Why do you think that is true?
我的意思是，
I mean,
这是有意为之的。
it's by design.
我之所以这样安排这本书的结构，是因为我不想它仅仅是一个三十天的指南。
Part of the reason why I structured the book the way I did is I didn't just wanna have it be a thirty day guide.
我认为三十天的指南当然非常重要。
I think that the thirty day guide is certainly super important.
正如你所说，它容易理解，希望也容易执行，让读者在那三十天或一个月内感受到自己有所进展。
Like you said, easily digestible, hopefully easy to execute on for folks to feel like they're getting somewhere in those thirty days or that one month.
但我认为，‘不买新东西’以及普遍采纳这种心态的一个重要部分，是揭开西方尤其是美国消费主义的面纱。
But I I think a really important part of no new things and just generally adopting this mindset is to pull the curtain back on consumption in the West and specifically in The United States.
我祖母活到了109岁，她会清洗并重复使用铝箔纸，还会从自助餐桌上偷饼干，等等。那么，我们是怎么从那些买东西非常谨慎、会修理物品、长期保存并保持良好状态的人，变成了如今在网上冲动购物、买些劣质到根本无法维修、最终直接进垃圾填埋场的东西的人呢？
My grandmother lived to be 109, and she would wash and reuse tinfoil and steal biscuits from the buffet, you know, and so and so how did we go from being people who bought things very intentionally, repaired those things, kept them for a really long time in pretty good repair to people who literally go online and impulse shop crap that is shoddily made, can never be repaired, and will hit the landfill.
我们买的东西多到甚至忘了自己买过什么。
So much so that we buy so many things that we forget that we've even bought them.
很多人实际上拥有大量自己买过却完全忘记的商品。
Like, so many people actually have, like, loads and loads of stuff that they bought, and they completely forgot that they even purchased those things.
因此，我对这一点非常感兴趣，尤其是在教授市场营销时
And so I was really intrigued by this and in teaching marketing
为了
for
可持续发展，同时我也曾在不同财富500强公司担任过市场营销职务。
sustainability and having been in marketing roles as well at different Fortune 500 companies.
这一切都是有意设计的。
It this is all by design.
心理学早在20世纪初就开始被用于市场营销活动，那时正是工业开始加速发展的时期。
Psychology started to be used in marketing campaigns back in the early nineteen hundreds, right around the time when industry began to ramp up.
二战后，工业出现了巨大的扩张和转型，工厂不再生产战时物资，而是转向制造更多便利品或奢侈品，比如洗碗机、电视机，以及一些人们此前从未想象过的未来感产品。
And then after World War two, we see a huge ramp up and pivot in industry where instead of making wartime wares, we are now shifting those factories to make things that are more like convenience goods or luxury goods like dishwashers and televisions and, you know, just things that futuristic things that folks had never even conceived of before.
我们开始看到各种新产品和型号更频繁地推出。
We're starting to see new makes and models of things come out more frequently.
比如，过去著名的美国汽车T型车，
So it used to be like, for instance, the model t, which is like the infamous car in The United States.
它只有一种型号和一种颜色——黑色。
It used to only come in one type and one color black.
除非对车辆的运行有重大改进，否则几乎不会做任何改动。
And unless it was a really meaningful change to the operation of the vehicle, there really weren't many changes made.
现在，每年我们看到的汽车都是新款和新车型。
Now when we had see cars every year, it's a new make and it's a new model of the car.
这是汽车的一种全新迭代。
It's a new kind of iteration of the car.
这是一款新的iPhone。
It's a new iPhone.
我们看到这么多不同版本不断推出。
It's a new we see so many different versions come out.
而有时这些版本之间的变化微不足道，这实际上只是又一个营销手段，目的是让我们升级本已完好无损的设备。
And sometimes the changes bet oftentimes, the changes between those versions are so insignificant, and it really is just yet another marketing ploy to get us to upgrade what we already have even if what we already have works just fine.
这是一个有趣的转变。
So that's an interesting shift.
与此同时，产业也在做这一切。
And then at that same time, the industry is doing all this.
营销开始说：嘿。
Marketing is starting to go, hey.
嘿。
Hey.
现在美国拥有电视机的人越来越多了。
And we have so many more people who now are owning television sets in The United States.
尤其是从二战后到六十年代，电视机在家庭中的普及率呈爆炸式增长。
Especially if you look at post World War two to the sixties, the amount of television sets and homes is, it's a meteoric rise.
这太疯狂了。
It's crazy.
而且，二战期间有很多女性在工厂工作，但战后男性归来，她们就被毫不客气地赶出了这些岗位。
And you also have a lot of women who were working in factories during World War two, and then they were kind of unceremoniously booted from those jobs because men were coming back from war.
因此，她们很多时候只能待在家里。
So they ended up being home, a lot of the times.
可以说，她们是被圈养的消费者。
Kind of, like, calling them, like, captive consumers.
她们是一群非常被动的受众，整天被电视和杂志营销，诱导她们让丈夫购买那些她们以前根本不感兴趣的东西。
They were a really captive audience who could, you know, be marketed to all day long on television, through magazines, for things to to ask their husbands to buy things that they never had been interested in before.
所以，这只是简单地探讨了一下当时营销和生产领域的情况——因为你必须有工业来制造这些商品，然后还需要广告和营销来向我们推广它们。
So that's just a little bit of a dive into what was going on in marketing at that time and also in production because you have to have industry make these goods to sell them to us, and then you need to have advertising and marketing to advertise and market them to us.
尤其是女性，长期以来一直被视为理想的营销对象。
And specifically as women, we have long been the dream population to market to.
我们拥有相当大的消费购买力，不仅在美国，而且在全球范围内都是如此。
We hold a significant amount of consumer purchasing power, not just in The United States, but globally.
实际上，我们正逐渐成为全球最具影响力的消费者购买群体。
We're actually trending to be globally the number one most influential consumer purchasers in the world.
因为很多时候，我们是家庭的户主。
Because a lot of times, we're our heads of household.
我们为家里的每个人购物。
We purchase for everyone at home.
所以营销，尤其是在美国，投入了大量资金来了解女性想要什么、希望感受到什么、以及渴望成为什么样的人。
So marketing, especially, I would say in The United States, invests a lot of money in understanding what women want or how we wanna feel or what we aspire to be.
因此，我认为‘不买新东西’这种做法之所以重要，是因为它帮助我们稍稍摆脱了这种消费漩涡——尤其是女性被大量针对，被引导着持续留在其中。
And so that's why it's I think it's really important in a way, no new things is is a radical approach because it's helping to unyoke us a little bit from this consumerist swirl that especially women are very much targeted into staying in.
所以，这只是背景介绍。
So, that was just a little background.
不。
No.
我
I
很喜欢了解一下背景，因为这一点我们从未被教导过。
love love A little background on that because that's something that we're never taught.
我们从未听说过这一点。
That's something that we never hear about.
二战后的许多女性感到极度孤独。
And a lot of those women post World War two were extremely lonely.
她们从曾经共同生活、在工厂里与同伴一起为共同目标奋斗的环境，转变为住在郊区的家中，变得孤立无援。
They went from being in kind of these communal living situations and factories where they really worked towards something with their peers to being at home and isolated in the suburbs.
她们感到孤独，而她们的丈夫很多时候对她们来说就像陌生人。
They were lonely, and, their husbands a lot of times felt like strangers to them.
这也是我们从未了解过的叙事的一部分。
This is also a part of the narrative that we never learn.
我们看到的往往是幸福的二十世纪五十年代家庭主妇形象，但很少听到这一面的另一面。
We see, like, the happy sort of nineteen fifties housewife, but we never hear about the other side of that as much.
因此，尤其是作为女性，我们一直被塑造成美国的理想消费者。
And so we, especially as women, have been conditioned to be the ideal consumers in The United States.
他们利用一切心理和条件性手段。
And they leverage everything psychologically and also conditionally.
他们操控了大量因素。
They pull a lot of levers.
所以我不确定你是否看过一些关于购物中心的研究成果。
So I'm not sure if you've seen some of the the research that's come out around malls, like shopping malls.
我有点过时了。
I'm dating myself a little bit.
没有。
No.
这项研究是什么？
What is the research?
当我
When I
我小时候，购物中心就是要去的地方。
was growing up, the shopping mall was, like, the place to be.
我父母不让我在商场闲逛。
My parents would not let me loiter at the mall.
不能去商场让我显得很不合潮流，但在互联网出现之前，去商场就是一件大事。
It made me uncool to not be able to go to the mall, but going to the mall was, like, the thing before the Internet.
商场是故意设计成没有窗户的。
Well, malls are intentionally designed to have, one, no windows.
因此你无法察觉时间的流逝，因为你接触不到自然光。
So you lose track of time, because you're not getting the natural light.
你听不到自然的声音，而是被商店里那些异常明亮的人工灯光吸引，尤其是那些突出商品的展示区。
You're not hearing the natural sounds, and you're gravitating toward the artificial light that's unnaturally bright in the stores, especially in the displays that highlight the merchandise.
商场通常都非常冷。
Malls are notoriously cold.
我在德克萨斯长大。
I grew up in Texas.
我们去商场只是为了享受那夏天里猛烈吹拂的免费空调。
We would go to the mall just to get, like, enjoy that free air conditioning that was, like, blasting in the summer.
商场里特别冷，因为研究表明，当你感到寒冷时，做出的决策会更少有意识、更少深思熟虑。
And they're notoriously cold because studies show that when you are cold, you make less intentional, less well thought out decisions.
你会做出更多冲动的决定。
You make more impulsive decisions.
想想看，我刚在电影院里，冷得要命，当时我就想：我得吃点东西。
Think about like, I was just in a movie theater and it was like freezing in there, and I was like, I need to eat.
我需要吃点零食。
I need a snack.
你知道的吧？
You know?
你想想，超市、电影院、商场这些地方——它们的设计目的就是让你消费，或者至少希望你消费——都保持非常低的温度，因为它们知道，你一旦冷了，就会做出糟糕的决定。
You're just immediately grocery stores, movie theaters, malls, places where you are designed to consume things or they hope you will consume things are kept very cold because they know that you'll make poor decisions if you're cold.
如果你饿了，如果你拿到了退税或退款，或者你住的地方天气糟糕，阳光充足吗？
If you're hungry, if you've received a tax return or a refund, if you've if the weather is crummy where you live, what's the level of sunshine?
这些都是营销人员在向你发送广告、推送通知等时会考虑的因素。
These are all factors that marketers look at when they're sending you advertisements, push notifications, all that stuff.
他们关注一天中的时间，因为他们知道在某些时段，你的精力可能会下降。
They're looking at time of day because they know that certain times of day, your energy might be dragging.
你可能在办公室里感觉状态很差。
You might be at the office and you're feeling crummy.
你可能和孩子在一起，他们让你抓狂。
You might be with your kids and they're driving you crazy.
你知道的？
You know?
当你分身乏术、感到压力重重时，就更有可能冲动消费。
And you're just more likely when you're spread thin and feeling stressed out in those times to impulse purchase something.
所以所有这些手段——比如情人节，就是营销人员经常利用的情感杠杆。无论你是单身还是有伴侣，这一天都充满了消费主义的期待和仪式感。
So all of those levers are think like Valentine's Day, right, is an emotional lever that marketers pull all the time Because whether you're single or you're partnered up, there's so much consumerist expectation around that particular day and the ceremony around that.
因此，几乎所有你能想到的因素，营销人员都了如指掌。
So every kind of factor you can pretty much think of, marketers know about.
所以我已经离你的问题太远了。
So I've almost gotten I've gotten so far away from your question.
但不用。
But No.
这太棒了。
This is great.
这太棒了。
This is great.
我觉得这很有趣，因为回到历史来看，我们有这些营销人员，我每次走进塔吉特超市时都会这么说。
I think it is interesting because going back to the history, we have these marketers and I I say this when you step foot into a target.
他们总是让你觉得你不够充足。
They're always making you feel as if you don't have enough.
每周当我们来这儿买杂货或做其他你确实需要的事情时，他们都会向你展示一些新东西。
It's like every week we're gonna present you with something when you come in here for groceries or just something that you do actually need.
是的。
Yeah.
我们会展示你没有的东西，告诉你不够好，你也不够好。
We're gonna show you what you don't have and it's not enough, and you're not enough.
所以营销人员的工作就是指出你必须填补的空缺。
And so marketers' jobs are to point out the voids that you have to fill.
但本应由社区和健康选择来填补这些空缺，结果却不是这样。
And instead of community and healthy options filling those voids, it's like, no.
你需要这个东西。
You need this thing.
因此，我认为在电视广告或人们被营销的方式中，你说女性可能更向内关注，感到孤独。
And so I think with the presentation of television commercials or just how people were marketed to, you said women maybe went a little bit more inward and they were feeling lonely.
是的，因为也许我们被不断提醒一些其实并不真正关心的事情。
It's like, yeah, because maybe we are being things were being pointed out to us that we didn't really care about.
一旦这些被指出来，
And then once they're pointed out,
如果我们一直纠结于此，就会觉得自己不够充足。
it's like, if we dwell there, then we don't feel like we have enough.
百分之百。
A 100%.
我的意思是，我们不进行营销，是因为我们不觉得自己足够好，嗯。
I mean, us not marketing hinges on us not feeling like we are enough Mhmm.
或者我们觉得东西不够，或者没有正确的东西，或者某种东西不够，或者某种东西太多了。
Or we have enough or we have the right things or we have enough of a particular thing or we have too much of a particular thing.
所有这些被感知到的，我甚至可以说被强加的缺陷，嗯。
All of those perceived, and I would say prescribed deficits Mhmm.
正是营销所依赖的全部核心。
Are exactly where marketing hinges on.
我的意思是，想想那些策略，比如错失恐惧症（FOMO）、限时优惠等等。
I mean, think of even the tactics like FOMO, fear of missing out, limited time only.
想想那些网红，以及每一个被彻底商业化的社交媒体平台。
Think of the influencers who and every social media platform, which is monetized to the hilt.
我们所使用的每一个社交媒体平台，要么在向我们推送广告，要么在展示那些向我们推销产品的网红，不管我们是否意识到这一点。
Every single social media platform we spend time on is either pushing advertisements to us or it's showing us influencers who are pushing things to us whether we know it or not.
比如，我是说，那种隐蔽的营销，比如我背后可能就有最新的绿色产品之类的。
Like, I mean, stealthy marketing where I could have, you know, the latest greens product or something just in the background.
这就是现在最隐蔽的营销方式。
That's the latest kind of stealthy way to market to people.
因为如果你看到了，嗯。
Because if you see it Mhmm.
你的大脑就会想，哦，这个挺有意思的。
Your brain's gonna go, oh, that's interesting.
那是什么？
What is that?
你知道的？
You know?
所以，我不愿说每个营销人员都是坏人。
And so there it's I don't wanna say every marketer is a terrible person.
每个市场部门的目标固然如此，但也不一定都是这样。
Every marketing department's out to do but that's not necessarily the case.
但我认为非常重要的是要意识到，这是一种非常隐蔽的手段，长期以来一直运用心理学，差不多已经有一百年了，来操控我们的心理，促使我们消费。
But I think it's really important to know that it's a pretty insidious practice that has used psychology for a very long period of time, almost like, you know, hundred years at this point, to really pull those levers to get us to spend.
如果我们能从这种影响中抽身，有能力喘口气，分辨出我们看到的是宣传还是我们真正需要的东西，那情况就不会这么严重了。
And it wouldn't be as big of a deal if we had a break from it and if we had the ability to take a breath and discern if what we're seeing is propaganda and what we're seeing is actually something that we genuinely might need.
但现在，你知道，这些数字众说纷纭，因为我们从各个角度都接收到广告。
But now, you know, and the numbers are kinda all over the place because we get advertisements from every angle.
据估计，每个人每天会接触到2000到10000次广告和营销信息。
It's estimated we've received 2,000 to 10,000 advertising and marketing impressions a day per person.
这数量太多了。
That's a ton.
这占用了你大脑的大量空间。
That's a ton of space in your brain.
这造成了大量的决策疲劳，也让我们不断接受着大量的潜意识编程。
That's a ton of decision fatigue, and that's a ton of subconscious programming that we're seeing all the time.
然后我们还会把这些内化于心。
And then we're internalizing that.
所以我甚至在自己身上也见过这种情况，我觉得我自己已经算是挺有抵抗力的了。
So I've even seen it with myself, and I feel like I'm pretty.
我已经某种程度上让自己脱敏了，对其中一些影响没那么敏感了。
I've kind of deconditioned myself to be at least a little less susceptible to some of it.
但有时候我会看到广告，以前你只会看到七次曝光。
But sometimes I'll see an ad like it used to be you'd get seven impressions.
那是营销人员遵守的‘七次法则’。
That was the rule that marketers would abide by, the rule of seven.
哦。
Oh.
在广告环境中，一个人必须看到或互动你的品牌七次，才会真正购买。
You have seven times to for someone to see or interact with your brand in an in an advertising context before they will actually buy it.
现在因为我们的注意力持续时间短得多，广告环境又如此拥挤，大家都在互相竞争，所以七次已经变成了一个惊人的数字。
Now because, you know, our attention spans are so much shorter and the advertising landscape is so overcrowded that everybody's competing with each other, that seven has gone to a a wild number.
一些大型零售商甚至要求达到一百次曝光才行。
Some some large retailers will operate on you need a 100 impressions.
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所以你、我以及你的所有听众都不断受到信息的轰炸。
So you and I and all your listeners are constantly being bombarded.
我的意思是，想想你在社交媒体上看到的广告。
I mean, think of even, like, ads that you see on social media.
有多少次有人在推销这个东西？
How many times is someone hawking this thing?
为什么我每次在侧边栏广告里都看到它？
Why am I seeing it in every sidebar ad?
为什么我总是在听到关于它的信息？
Why am I seeing like, why am I hearing it about it?
而且这些内容根本与你的生活无关。
And it's not something that would even be germane to your life.
你甚至根本不需要它。
You wouldn't even necessarily need it.
所以很难从这种信息轰炸中解脱出来，而我们确实无法摆脱。
So it's it's difficult to get a break from this, and we really don't.
这就是为什么很难退一步，说：哇。
And that's why it's tough to take a step back and go, woah.
因此，书中最初几周甚至进入第二周的许多第一步，都是静音、取消订阅、停止这些通知——这些通知会减少购买过程中的阻力，让你更难被这些信息影响，也更难真正参与购买过程。
And so a lot of no new things, the kind of initial steps in the book for the first week and even into the second week are muting, unsubscribing, putting a stop to a lot of those notifications, those things that create less friction in the buying process, and making it more difficult for you to be susceptible to those messages and for you to actually engage in the buying process.
这是一种稍微退一步的方式。
It's a way to kinda step back.
不幸的是，这已经成为我们社会中如此根深蒂固的一部分。
You have to unfortunately, it's so so much a part of our society.
我的意思是，想一想。
I mean, think about it.
广告已经深深融入了我们的生活方式，以至于你必须额外付费才能从任何流媒体服务中去除广告。
Advertising is such a part of how we live that you actually have to pay to remove advertisements from any of your streaming services.
在任何娱乐内容中，你都得额外付费才能去掉广告。
Any of your entertainment content, you have to pay extra to remove the ads from it.
这就是广告在我们生活中无处不在的程度。
That's how that's how just ubiquitous it is in the way we live.
所以，如果你能的话，我们就必须主动设置障碍，告诉自己：好吧。
And so if you can, you have to then it's up to us that we have to create the barriers to go, okay.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我该怎么减少这些噪音呢？
How do I get how do I cut down on some of this noise?
我无法控制那些进入我邮箱的东西或我开车时看到的广告牌，但我可以控制进入我收件箱的内容、出现在我手机和电视、设备上的信息等等。
I can't control the things that come into my mailbox or the billboards I see on the road as I'm driving, but I can control what's coming into my inbox, what's coming onto my phone, what's on my television, my devices, that kind of stuff.
有趣的是，正如你所说，你已经相当擅长应对这些诱惑了。
Well, it's funny because like you said, you've gotten pretty good at at navigating these temptations, we'll say.
我也有同感。
I feel the same way.
但当你这么说的时候，我意识到，就在五到八年前，广告还是完全不同的样子。
And yet, as you're talking, I'm recognizing that even we'll say even five to eight years ago, advertising is incredibly different.
我以前在电视上看到过一些经过精心修图的完美女性——虽然我几乎从不看电视。
I used to see something on the television, which I don't really ever watch television, but you would see these airbrush perfected women.
我当时意识到了这一点。
And I was aware of that.
我想，这并不是现实。
I'm like, oh, that's not reality.
这根本行不通。
Like, that's not actually gonna work.
这个产品不会以那种方式对我皮肤起作用。
That product won't work on my skin that way.
但现在你有了这些看起来和你差不多的网红——如果你关注的是那些和你相貌相似的人，近距离看到这些产品在他们身上的效果，我会感到特别冲动，因为我想，这是一个真实的女性。
But now you have these influencers that look relatively like, if you're following people that look relatively like yourself or similar and you see up close what these products are doing to them, I feel incredibly impulsive about that because I'm like, oh, that's a real woman.
她没有被修图。
She's not being airbrushed.
这个产品对她有效，那为什么
This product seems to work for her, so why would
不会对我有效呢？
it not work for me?
所以我认为，即使是那些试图对抗这种现象的人，也越来越难以抵御了。
So I think that we even the people that are trying to combat this, it's just getting even more tricky to withstand.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
你提到的这一点，我觉得非常及时。
You hit on something really, I think, timely.
电视，我也不怎么看了，但我确实会在YouTube、TikTok和Instagram上消费内容。
Television, I also don't watch that much television anymore, but I do consume content on YouTube, Tik Tok, Instagram.
这算是我新的电视了。
That's kind of my new television.
对吧？
Right?
而在这些平台上，你看到的很多人物都和你相似，或者是你希望成为的那种人，形成了那种拟社会关系。
And therein, you have a lot of people who you see yourself in or you hope to, those parasocial relationships.
我的意思是，我们确实不知道，比如你和我可能认识一些网上的人，因为我们和他们成了朋友。
Like, we don't know I mean, yeah, you and I probably know some people from the Internet because we've become friends with them.
嗯。
Yeah.
但大多数人根本根本不认识这些人。
But most of us don't freaking know these people.
对吧？
Right?
但我们却觉得和他们很亲近。
And so but yet we feel close to them.
我们觉得和他们有共鸣。
We feel a kinship with them.
我们信任他们。
We trust them.
比如，已经有一些研究和民调显示，普通美国人对网红有着极大的信任。
Like, there have been studies out there, polls that show that average Americans really have a ton of trust in influencers.
他们从未见过的人，他们只看到对方生活中光鲜亮丽的片段。
People whom they've never met, people who for whom they see only a highlight reel of life.
即便如此，我们看到的内容，也根本无从知晓其真实性和真实性如何。
And even then, what we see, we just don't know how true or authentic that actually is.
所以，这关乎像你我这样有辨别力的人。
So it's and and it's discerning people like you and me.
这是那些我们认为自己相当聪明、很有见识的人。
It's people who are we would consider ourselves pretty smart, pretty savvy.
你知道的？
You know?
我们生活在一个追求极简、断舍离，试图让生活更高效、更好、更有意义的领域，但即便如此，我们依然很容易受到影响。
We're dwelling in this realm of decluttering and minimalism and trying to make our lives more efficient and better and purposeful, and yet we're very susceptible to it as well.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
哦，我只是知道。
Oh, it's just I know.
这真是
It's it
可能很可怕。
can be scary.
我明白。
I get it.
我说这个是因为我完全坦诚。
I'm saying this because I'm in full transparency.
我最近几个月买了一些东西。
I'm like, I purchased a few things in the last couple of months.
该死。
I'm like, damn it.
我为什么要这么做？
Why did I do that?
那真是太蠢了，我竟然被说服了。
That was so stupid, and I was sold to.
我当时想，我以为我不会被说服。
And I'm like, I thought I couldn't
被说服。
be sold to.
不。
No.
但我之所以经常谈论消费主义的历史，尤其是在美国，是因为这真的不是你的错。
But it's not but when the reason why I talk a lot about the history of consumerism, especially in The United States Mhmm.
这真的不是你的错。
Is because it's really not your fault.
我接触过太多人，他们都说，都是我的错。
I talked to so many people who say, oh, it's all my fault.
我只是没有意志力。
I just have no willpower.
是啊，没错。
And it's like, sure.
在你点击‘加入购物车’按钮时，确实需要一定的意志力或自主性。
There is a certain amount of willpower or agency that goes into you hitting the add to cart button.
当然，我不会撒谎说这不是真的。
Of course, I'm not gonna, you know, lie and say that's not true.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但这种行为已经被深深塑造了。
But this has been so conditioned.
我把这称为‘被塑造的消费主义’，在某些情况下甚至是‘被强迫的消费主义’，因为这已经成为西方社会运作体系中一种极其隐蔽的部分，我想这么说，尤其是在美国，它深深融入了我们的生活方式。
I call it conditioned conditioned consumerism, and in some cases, coerced consumerism because it is such an insidious part of just the operating system of the West, I would say, but especially in The United States, and such a big part of just how we live.
嗯。
It's Mhmm.
这根本不是什么‘漏洞’。
It's like it's not a it's not a bug.
这是一个程序功能。
It's a program feature.
你知道的。
You know?
美国人认为买东西是一种爱国行为，嗯。
This Americans pay like, buying things is a patriotic act Mhmm.
在美国。
In The United States.
嗯。
Mhmm.
其他地方也是，但这本书主要聚焦于美国，因为我就在那里。
And other places too, but the book really focuses on The US just because I'm I'm that's where I am.
但没错，这确实是一种爱国行为。
But, yeah, it's it it really is a patriotic act.
二战后，它就被这样定义了。
And after World War two, that's how it was framed.
所以二战期间所有那些宣传都在告诉人们，比如购买商品、种植胜利菜园、修补衣物、拼车，因为这对战争努力有好处。
So all that propaganda during World War two that was telling people, you know, buy like, grow victory gardens and mend your clothes and carpool because that's good for the war effort.
所有这些积极的信息发生了变化，开始说：既然我们赢得了战争，胜利者该做什么？
All of that really happy messaging changed and said, now that we've won the war, what do victors do?
有钱的胜利者该做什么？
What do victors who have money do?
美国梦是什么？
What is the American dream?
所有这一切都改变了。
And all of it changed.
正是在那时，快时尚出现了，人们可以买到直接上架、合身的衣服。
And that's when we see fast fashion, like people can buy clothes right off the racks that fit them.
也正是在那时，人们开始每餐都吃肉。
That's when we see people eating meat at every meal.
我们看到了双车车库。
We see two car garages.
我们看到更大的房子。
We see bigger homes.
我们看到塑料的兴起，这种材料以前很少使用，但因为便利性和对未来更好生活的追求，成为繁荣美国人的重要宣传和卖点，我们也开始看到塑料无处不在，因为人们不想洗碗，除非你有一台时髦昂贵的新洗碗机。
We see the rise of plastic, which was a material that really wasn't used much, but because convenience and kind of living better in the future, became a really big messaging and selling point of a prosperous American, we start to see also the proliferation of plastic everywhere because people don't wanna wash dishes unless you've got a cool expensive new dishwasher.
你想要把东西扔掉。
You wanna, like, throw stuff out.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你希望东西是一次性的。
You wanna have things be disposable.
所有这些都构成了我们的本质。
So all of this is part of who we are.
从你我出生起，我们就一直处在这种熏陶之中。
It's since you and I have been born, this is the conditioning that we were in.
所以这真的不是意志力的问题，因为你在很大程度上对这些影响和熏陶无能为力。
So it's really not about willpower because you're kind of in a way helpless to a lot of these influences and conditioning.
这就是我在三十天‘不买新物’理念中试图做到的：尽可能让你处于一种状态，不是让你隔绝外界，而是改变一些这种潜移默化的 conditioning，让你能获得宁静，哪怕只是相对的宁静。
And that's one thing I tried to do with the no new things ethos in thirty days was really to get you in a place where as much as you're able to, not to insulate yourself, but to kind of shift some of that conditioning so that you can have the quiet, maybe quiet relative quiet.
你能拥有一定的空间，喘息的余地，停下来想一想。
You can have some of the space, the breathing room to go, hold up.
既然我不再被这些信息时刻轰炸，我真正想要的是什么？
Now that I'm not bombarded by all this all the time, what do I really want?
我真正想要的是什么？
What do I actually want?
我真正需要的是什么？
What do I actually need?
因为我们甚至已经无法分辨什么是需求，什么是欲望了。
Because we don't even we can't even determine needs and wants anymore.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，我会上网然后说：我需要这个。
That's like I mean, I'll go on online and be like, I need this.
然后你就说，‘姐妹，啥？’
And it's like, girl, what?
我会暂时开玩笑地让自己以为我需要这些东西，或者这些东西是必需品，但实际上它们并不是。
I temporarily joke myself into thinking I need things or that things are necessities when they are actually not.
通过‘不接触新事物’这种方式以替代方式满足需求，是一个非常好的停顿，能帮你获得这样的视角：天啊。
And having to get your needs met in alternative ways like in Know New Things is a really great pause that helps you to get that perspective of like, oh, holy smokes.
我其实并不需要那个。
I don't actually need that.
或者我已经有东西完全可以满足我的需求，而不是一开始因为觉得需要就去买。
Or I have something that could work just fine for what I I need instead of just I'm initially buying something because I think I need it.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得和你聊这个话题对我而言的挑战是，我有个存放补充剂和蛋白粉的柜子。
I think the challenge to me having this conversation, I have a cabinet of my supplements and protein powders.
就在上周，我又收到了一罐胶原蛋白粉。
And just this past week, I had another collagen powder delivered.
而且你根本就没有去逐一测试。
And it's like, you're not even going through and like testing.
这个有用吗？
Did this one work?
你有感觉到差别吗？
Are you noticing a difference?
你就只是觉得，哦，这个好像有效。
You're just like, oh, this one seems to work.
所以我给自己的挑战是：先把柜子里的都用完，如果都没效果，你才能尝试新的。
So my challenge to myself is get through that cabinet and then you're allowed to try something new if it doesn't work.
就是一些小事情而已。
Like, it's just little things.
就像你说的，在看《白莲花度假村》之前，你读完书架上所有的书了吗？
Kinda like you said, have I read all the books on my shelf before I watch White Lotus?
我正在读伊娜·加滕的回忆录，昨晚我对自己说：在读完这本书之前，你不准看新一集。
I was reading Ina Garten's memoir and I told myself last night, I was like, you're not allowed to watch the new episode until you finish this book.
我最后把这本书读完了。
And I ended up reading the book.
我没看那集，因为太累了，但我确实读完了。
I didn't get to the episode because I was too tired, but I did finish.
我觉得这就是给自己的挑战，因为我总说想多读书，但其他事情却总吸引我的注意力。
And I was like, that is the challenge to myself because I say I wanna read more and yet the other things grab your attention.
完全正确。
A 100%.
我的意思是，你提到的这一点真的很好。
I mean, I think that you hit on a really good thing too.
书里有那么几天，嗯，有那么几天。
And there's a day in the there are a few days in the book Mhmm.
尤其是在第二和第三周，特别强调要充分利用你已有的东西，比如整理你的物品。
Especially in the second and third weeks, which do really focus on using up what you already have, like going through your stuff.
没错。
Yeah.
在购买替代品之前，先用完你已有的东西。
Using what you already have before you buy replacements.
因为我们是人类。
Because we're human beings.
我们天生有一种稀缺心态，总觉得天啊。
We are have a built in kind of scarcity mindset where we're like, oh my god.
我的胶原蛋白快用完了。
I'm getting low on collagen.
我得补货了。
I need to restock.
我一天都不能没有它。
I can't be without it for a day.
那简直太可怕了。
That would be a nightmare.
我不是在调侃你。
And I'm not I'm not parodying you.
我为什么不呢？
I'm Why not?
就像我也会做同样的事。
Like, I do the same thing.
我会想，我的面部精油。
I'll be like, my face oil.
天啊。
Oh god.
快用完了。
It's getting low.
如果我在店里买不到怎么办？
And what happens if I can't get it at the store?
那我该怎么办？
And then what am I gonna do?
你知道的？
You know?
所以我有六瓶左右吧。
So I have, like, six of them or something.
这其实是在鼓励大家看看自己已经拥有的东西，因为对于普通女性来说，如果你走进浴室，看看你的美妆产品——我以前可是Sephora VIB会员，什么乱七八糟的都买。
And it's really just testing folks or encouraging folks to look at what they have, which if the average woman, if you go into your bathroom and you look at your beauty products I used to be a Sephora VIB junkie, you know, all that stuff.
我有太多东西了，后来才意识到，我这辈子从来没用完过一支口红。
And I had so many things and then realized I've never in my entire life finished a lipstick.
你知道吗？
You know?
真的从来没用完过。
Like, never.
我有大概七十支口红。
I have, like, 70 of them.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以关键是要看看自己有什么，然后想想：我是不是因为用了会爆痘才不用它？
And so it's a matter of looking at what you have, determining, am I not using this because it broke me out?
看起来很糟糕。
It looks bad.
我不喜欢它。
I don't like it.
把它们道德地转给其他可能需要的人，然后真正先用完你已有的库存，再购买新的东西。
Ethically offloading those to other places, other people who might use them, and then really just moving through the stockpile that you already have before you buy new stuff.
但我们所有人又都在补货，这是零售商使用的一种巨大营销策略，也是一种物流策略。
But we're all again, restocking is another huge marketing tactic and also a logistical tactic that's used by retailers.
我的意思是，看看‘订阅并节省’这种模式，对吧。
I mean, look at, like, subscribe and save Yeah.
通过订阅模式，这绝对是加速人们陷入债务的一种方式，而企业对此简直爱不释手。
Where you're getting things a subscription model is absolutely, I would say, one of the things that is, like, fast tracking people to debt and businesses freaking love it.
我曾经在一家订阅制公司工作，我们内部的口号很糟糕，我甚至都不想提，但我在这本书里提到了，那就是‘容易，容易，难’。
I used to work for a subscription based company, and our internal motto, which sucks, and I hate even like, I hate I talk about in the book, but it was easy, easy, hard.
注册和订阅很容易，忘记自己已经订阅也很容易，但取消却很难。
And it was easy to sign up and subscribe, easy to forget that you've signed up and subscribed, and hard to cancel.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我的意思是，任何订阅过订阅盒子之类东西的人都知道这是真的。
That I mean, and anyone who's gotten, like, a subscription box or something like that knows this is true.
你订阅了某样东西。
You get a subscription to something.
你对此很兴奋。
You're stoked about it.
然后你收到了，心想，哦，对了。
And then you you get it, and you're like, oh, yeah.
我收到了那个订阅盒子。
I got that subscription box.
完全忘了这回事。
Totally forgot about that.
我得取消这个。
I need to cancel that.
当你想要取消时，即使你还能记得去取消，他们也会让整个流程变得极其繁琐，并想尽一切办法让你不要取消，因为他们想让你留在他们的生态系统里。
And then when you go to cancel it, if you even continue to remember to, they make the process super arduous and they do whatever they can to get you to not cancel because they wanna keep you in their ecosystem.
没错。
Yeah.
所以他们会说：下个月给你打七折怎么样？
So then they'll be like, what about 30% off next month?
或者送你两个额外礼物之类的？
Or what about two extra gifts or whatever?
然后我们就说：好吧。
And then we're like, okay.
我的意思是，听起来好像挺划算的。
I mean, I guess that sounds like a good deal.
也许我下个月再取消吧。
Maybe I'll cancel next month.
或者暂停三个月，暂停。
Or pause for three months Pause.
持续两个月，然后你就忘了，接着就被扣款了。
For two months, and then you forget, and then you're charged.
不是说这发生在我身上。
Not that that's happened to me.
哦，天哪。
Oh, girl.
这种事真的经常发生在我身上。
It literally happens all the time to me.
完全没错。
Totally.
这简直就是榨干人们财务的吸血鬼。
And so it's a real succubus to people's finances.
是啊。
Yeah.
但这种模式的设计就是利用人们担心自己会用完东西的心理。
But it's a model that's designed to kind of play on people's concern that they're gonna run out of things.
在某些情况下，这其实是好事。
And in some cases, it's good.
比如宠物食品，没错，自动给我寄送，这很好。
Like, pet food, yeah, send it to me automatically because that's great.
卫生纸，太感谢了。
Toilet paper, thank you.
你知道的。
You know?
但其他东西呢，比如我每个月都需要新的香水吗？
But then other things like, do I need perfumes, like new selections of perfumes every month?
大概不需要。
Probably not.
会很好吗？
Would it be nice?
嗯。
Yeah.
但我已经有五个了。
But, like, I've already got five.
你知道的？
You know?
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
好的。
Okay.
这真是太棒了。
This has been wonderful.
在我们结束之前，我想简单提一下你书里的内容：你那套关于更明智消费的超级智能系统，提供了实用的建议来抑制冲动购物，以及替代性的活动来获得满足感。
The only other thing I wanted to touch on maybe just briefly before we wrap up, your book goes into, your super smart system for smarter consumption, practical tips to curb impulse shopping, alternative activities for fulfillment.
这里面内容太多了。
So much in there.
但我想谈一下，这其实甚至可以追溯到你提到的20世纪初的情况——当时女性中出现了孤独危机，因为我们觉得内心空虚得不到填补。
But one thing I wanna touch on that kinda goes back honestly even to what you were talking about when in the early nineteen hundred hundreds, you again, this loneliness epidemic amongst women because we feel like we don't have the void isn't being filled.
我想谈谈借用和共享如何构建社区，填补这种空虚，并提前应对那些营销者。
I wanna talk about how borrowing and sharing can build community and fill that void and kinda get ahead of those marketers.
当然。
Absolutely.
太棒了。
Love it.
你提到了那个超棒的系统。
Well, you touched on the super system.
所以我就说，‘不买新东西’的一部分，就是找到满足需求的替代方式。
So I'll just say, like, part of no new things is finding alternative ways to get your needs met.
对。
Yeah.
所以，与其以资本主义的方式从零售商那里购买新品，'超级系统'中的 S 代表二手，即购买二手物品。
So instead of a capitalistic way of I'm buying something new from a retailer, the super system stands for s, secondhand, so getting something secondhand.
U 代表升级再造，即对已有物品进行重新利用或重新想象。
U or u, that's upcycling, repurposing, reimagining something you already have.
P 代表零花费。
P is paying nothing.
也就是说，通过'不要东西'小组获取物品、在门口发现别人丢弃的东西，或者别人送给你，诸如此类的方式。
So that's getting something through a buy nothing group, finding it on a stoop, someone gives it to you, that type of thing.
E 代表体验。
E is experiences.
这更多地与赠送或自我娱乐有关。
That really has to do more with gifting or recreation for yourself.
即非物质的体验，而非物质物品。
So nontangible experiences instead of things.
而 R 代表租赁、借用或共享。
And then r is renting, borrowing, or sharing.
所以我认为这很好地衔接了你提到的租赁、借用和共享，因为过去我们确实是一个依靠资源共享生存的文化。
And so I think that dovetails nicely into you talking about renting, borrowing, and sharing because, you know, we used to be a culture that literally survived off of resource sharing.
我的意思是，这不仅是人们建立关系的方式，也是他们生存的方式。
I mean, that's how people not just had relationships, but also how they survived.
在我们成为这个高度工业化的国家和世界之前，东西都太昂贵了，不是每个人都有割草机、个人电脑之类的东西。
It things were so expensive to be made back before we were this heavy industrialized nation and world really that not everybody had a riding lawnmower or a a personal computer or whatever it was.
对吧？
Right?
不是每个人都有电视机或收音机。
Not everybody had a television set or a radio.
所以人们会以社区或多个社区的形式共享资源。
And so they we would resource share as a community or as communities.
现在，由于物品的生产和购买成本降低了，我们也形成了这样一种观念：我必须自己拥有它，因为向邻居借东西显得寒酸，或者很没面子。
Now that things have become cheaper to produce and cheaper to buy, we also have that ethos of, well, I have to own it myself because it's chintzy to borrow from my neighbor, you know, or it's tacky.
我记得在疫情期间，我做过一个关于‘不买新东西’的电视专题，是芝加哥本地的一个节目。
And I remember I did a segment a TV segment on no new things during the pandemic, and it was a local Chicago segment.
我收到了大约20个人发来的消息，说我提出这种建议太恶心、太丢脸了——比如你办派对需要70个香槟杯，可以问问邻居是否有多余的可以借一晚，或者去租一下。
And I got, like, 20 people messaging me saying how gross and tacky it was that I suggested that, you know, maybe if you're having a party and you need 70 champagne flutes, you ask your neighbors if they might have some that you can borrow for the evening or you go and rent them.
有些人觉得这简直极其粗俗。
People thought some people thought that was really heinously tacky.
你只是借点东西，就被当成 neighborhood succubus（邻里女妖）了。
Like, you're gonna be the neighborhood succubus because you asked to borrow those things.
我以为你要说
I thought you were gonna
是因为疫情，人们都像上个月那样。
say it was because it was COVID and people were like, Shang Jern.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
完全不是因为这个。
Not at all about that.
他们觉得这很恶心、俗气又廉价。
They thought it was gross and tacky and cheap.
勇敢。
Courageous.
是啊。
Yeah.
还有人说这很可耻，我当时想，哇。
And somebody actually said it was shameful and I thought, wow.
因为我相信你也有过类似的体验。
Because I I'm sure you have a similar experience.
在我的‘不购买’群组、免费群组，以及我的朋友和家人圈子里，我从与人分享中获得极大的满足感，比如把东西分享给别人。
In my buy nothing groups, in my free groups, and just in my friend and family networks, I get so much satisfaction sharing with people, like sharing things with people.
当我知道一位朋友要穿着一件曾带给我很多快乐的裙子去参加活动时，我感到无比开心。
I get so much joy knowing a friend is gonna wear a dress to an event that has brought me a lot of joy.
当我向别人借东西时，我也感到非常快乐，这种互惠的体验能给借出者和借入者都带来极大的满足，因为我们正身处一场孤独的流行病中。
I get so much joy, you know, borrowing something from someone, and that reciprocal experience gives both the recipient and the, giver a lot of satisfaction because we are in a loneliness epidemic.
我的意思是，卫生局局长说，孤独对健康的危害相当于每天吸一包香烟。
I mean, the surgeon general says that loneliness is as detrimental to our health as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这真的非常严重。
That's pretty freaking serious.
而与他人建立某种联系，让你觉得你能帮助他们、他们也能帮助你，这能建立信任。
And and having some kind of connection with other people where you feel like you can help them and they can help you, it builds trust.
它建立了我们所缺乏的沟通渠道，因为我们正越来越陷入一种孤立的社会，很多时候我们都只做自己的事。
It builds lines of communication that we don't have because we're increasingly in more of an isolationist society where we sort of just do our own things a lot.
所以，重建社区真的非常必要，这不仅是作为人类的迫切需求，我认为也是作为当今社会中的人所迫切需要的。
And so it's building community, and that's really something that we desperately need just not just as human beings, but I think as people existing today.
因此，重新参与循环共享和借用物品的模式，不仅对地球和我们的钱包有益。
So reengaging in a circular model of sharing things and borrowing things is not just good for the planet and our wallets.
它对我们的健康也有好处。
It's good for our health.
这对我们的心理健康也有好处。
It's good for our mental health.
是的。
Yeah.
它还能帮你放松对物品的执念，不再觉得它们如此特别、不可替代。
And it helps you have it helps loosen the grip on your things as being so special, irreplaceable.
对我来说，你需要转变这种心态。
To me, I'm like, you you need to shift from that mindset.
这正是我通过《极简妈妈》、我的书以及我持续在做的事情所努力推动的。
That's what I've tried to do with Minimalist Moms, with my book, with what I'm continuing to do.
你的东西只是东西而已。
Your things are just things.
当然。
Sure.
拥有一些特别喜欢的东西就好。
Have a few favorite things.
但当我的朋友借给我她的桌布，或者我让别人借走某些东西，或者我在整理女儿的衣服时看到它们获得第二生命，又或者我把一件花了50美元买来的裙子以5美元卖给了朋友。
But when my friend lent me her tablecloth or I've let people borrow such and such or when I'm decluttering my daughter's clothes and I get to see that second life or I sell a dress that I bought for 50 for $5 to a friend.
所有这些事情，再次帮助你释放物品对你的控制。
All those things, again, just kinda help you release that hold that your things have over you.
所以我认为这本身就是一种好处。
So I think that that's a benefit in itself.
这是个很棒的观点。
That's a wonderful that's a great point.
我的意思是，这确实是一种免费又简单的方式，能建立联系，并获得你刚才提到的诸多其他好处。
I mean, it absol it's it's I think, like, it's such it's a free and easy way to build connection and get so many other benefits like you just talked about.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们需要这种联系。
And we need that.
尤其是作为女性，我认为我们需要一些社区互动的纽带。
And especially as women, I think we need, like, community touch points.
你知道的？
You know?
我们需要彼此。
We need each other.
我们需要他人，既能够依靠他们，也能帮助他们。
We need other people to feel that we can rely on and also help.
这方方面面都很好，但陷入过度消费的漩涡会让我们远离这种联系。
It's good all around, but being in an over consumption swirl takes us out of that.
嗯。
Mhmm.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
嗯，刚才聊了这么多内容。
Well, again, there was so much talked about here.
我很喜欢和你聊天，我觉得我们还能就这个话题再聊好几个小时。
I love talking with you, and I feel like we could just talk about this topic for many more hours.
彼此彼此。
Right back at you.
是啊。
Yeah.
那么在那之前，正在收听的朋友们可以去买一本你的书，并在网上关注你，了解更多内容。
Well, until then, working listeners grab a copy of your book and connect with you online to hear more.
谢谢你，戴安。
Well, thank you, Diane.
听众们可以在他们平时购书的任何地方买到我的书。
Listeners can grab a copy of my book wherever they usually get books.
有有声书版本，如果你想要一个更简洁的版本，也有电子书版本，而且大多数图书馆也应该有，你也可以在那里申请借阅。
There's an audiobook version, an ebook version if you want a less thingsy version of that, and it should also be at most libraries, and you can request it there too.
然后我在Instagram上。
And then I'm on Instagram.
我可能在那里最活跃，我的Instagram账号是Ashley Piper。
That's probably where I'm most I'm most busy, and that's Ashley Piper at Instagram.
完美。
Perfect.
好吧，最后一个问题是
Well, the final question that
我想要问你的是，对你而言，过一种有明确意图的生活意味着什么？
I'm gonna ask you is, what does it mean to you to live a life with clear intentions?
这是个很好的问题。
It's a great question.
我一直在思考这个问题，因为我觉得你其实说到了一点，这深深触动了我对它的感受，那就是我越不看重我的物质。
And I've been ruminating on it a little bit, thinking about it because I think you actually said something that really really touches on how I feel about it, which is the less I value my stuff.
这并不是说我不珍惜我的东西，或者我不好好照顾它们。
And that's not to say I don't value my things, and I don't take good care of them.
我想说，极简主义者实际上非常珍惜他们的物品，因为他们对进入自己生活的东西非常挑剔。
I would say, like, minimalists in a way almost very much value their things because they're so discerning about what they do welcome into their lives.
但当你不再把物质视为生活的最高目标，不再把拥有东西作为身份或自我价值的象征时，你就会更加清晰地认识自己，明白自己在这个世界上想要做什么。
But when you deprioritize stuff as not the apex of your life, like not have having things as a way of stat as a means of status or as a means of your self worth, you get so much clearer on who you are and what you wanna do in this world.
就是你在这一生中想做的事情。
Like, what you wanna do in this existence.
这在我身上发生了。
And it happened for me.
我不但省下了一大笔钱，还还清了债务，并且得到了升职，这些都是一些过上这种生活后附带的好处。
Not only did I save a ton of money and paid off debt and, you know, got a promotion to work, like all these other ancillary benefits of kind of living in this way.
但我觉得我更了解自己了，也更清楚如何更有目标地生活，因为我没有了那些噪音、精神上的杂乱，还有物理上的杂乱。
But I felt like I knew myself so much better, and I knew what I was what I how I could be more purposeful because I didn't have all that noise and and mental clutter and also physical clutter.
这对我来说是最大的礼物。
And that that's the biggest gift to me.
我变得非常清楚自己是谁，以及我想做什么、成为什么样的人。
I got really clear on who I was and and what I wanted to do and be.
太好了。
So good.
阿什莉，非常感谢你参与这次对话。
Ashley, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation.
谢谢你开启这场对话，并成为如此重要的声音。
Thank you for starting this conversation and being a just a a large voice, a large voice.
谢谢。
Thanks.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
欢迎来到这个区域。
Welcome to this area.
我真的很感谢你今天加入我。
I just appreciate you joining me today.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
非常感谢你。
Thank you so much.
这真是太棒了。
This has been great.
你觉得这一集怎么样？
What did you think of the episode?
我希望你喜欢这次对话。
I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
要了解今天嘉宾的更多信息，包括与今天讨论内容相关的链接或资源，请查看你播客窗口中的节目说明。
To learn more about today's guests, including links or resources related to everything discussed today, check out the show notes in your podcast window.
如果你想支持这个播客，最简单也最有效的方式是在 iTunes、Spotify 或 YouTube，或你收听播客的任何平台订阅本节目。
If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most thing you can do is subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
并为你最喜欢的节目留下评分或评论。
And leave a rating or review of your favorite episode.
最后，将节目或你最喜欢的剧集分享给朋友或在社交媒体上，这非常有帮助，会鼓励其他人在追求有明确意图的生活时受到鼓舞。
Lastly, sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is so helpful and will encourage others as they set out to pursue a life with clear intentions.
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