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《纽约时报》应用里有很多你可能没见过的内容。
The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen.
这种方式
The way
标签页在顶部，包含所有不同的板块。
the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.
我可以立即跳转到符合我心情的内容。
I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.
我总是订购游戏。
I order games always.
玩小游戏。
Doing the mini.
玩填字游戏。
Doing the Wordle.
我喜欢它让我接触到如此多的内容。
I loved how much content it exposed me to.
我从来没想到会把新闻应用用在这些事情上。
Things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.
这个应用必不可少。
This app is essential.
《纽约时报》应用。
The New York Times app.
所有时间，全部集中在一个地方。
All of the times, all in one place.
立即前往 nytimes.com/app 下载。
Download it now at nytimes.com/app.
现在就爱上它。
Love now
以及永远。
and forever.
昨晚一见钟情，现在依然深爱。
Fall in love last night, love now.
爱比任何东西都更强大。
Love was stronger than anything.
为了爱，爱。
For the love Love.
我比任何事物都更爱你？
I love you more than anything?
爱。
Love.
这里有爱。
There's love.
爱。
Love.
来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
这是现代爱情。
This is modern love.
今天，我采访的是让妮特·麦库迪。
Today, I'm talking to Jeanette McCurdy.
让妮特几乎是在观众面前长大的。
Jeanette pretty much grew up in front of an audience.
她曾是尼克儿童频道的明星。
She was a Nickelodeon star.
你可能通过《iCarly》这部剧认识她。
You probably know her from the show iCarly.
但幕后的她一直在挣扎，她在2022年出版的畅销回忆录《我很高兴我妈妈去世了》中记录了这一切。
But behind the scenes, she was struggling, And she wrote about all of it in her 2022 best selling memoir, I'm glad my mom died.
现在，她推出了一本新书。
Now she has a new book out.
这是一部小说，名叫《比他小一半》。
It's a novel, and it's called half his age.
故事讲述了一位名叫沃尔多的17岁女孩和她40岁的老师科吉先生之间的关系。
And it's a story about a relationship between a 17 year old girl named Waldo and her 40 year old teacher, mister Corgi.
让我印象深刻的是《半他年龄》中沃尔多和科吉先生之间关系的复杂性。
What hit me about half his age is just how complicated this dynamic is between Waldo and mister Corgi.
让妮特并没有美化她们的关系，但也没有加以评判。
Jeanette does not sugarcoat their relationship, but she also doesn't pass judgment.
让妮特告诉我，她18岁时也经历过一段年龄差距的关系，直到写这本书，她才真正理解了那段经历以及她从中获得的教训。
Jeanette told me when she was 18, she had her own age gap relationship, and it took writing this book for her to fully come to terms with what happened and what she learned from it.
在我们深入讨论之前，先提醒一下：本集内容较为露骨。
A heads up before we get into it, this episode does get explicit.
所以如果你身边有孩子，建议稍后再听这一集。
So if you're listening with kids around, save this one for later.
让妮特·麦卡迪，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Jeanette McCurdy, welcome to Modern Love.
嗨，安娜。
Hi, Anna.
让妮特，你的第一本书是一本回忆录，曾连续八十多周登上《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜。
Jeanette, your first book was a memoir that spent over eighty weeks on the New York Times bestseller list.
这本书叫《感谢妈妈去世了》。
It's called I'm Glad My Mom Died.
现在你又写了一本新书，叫《他年龄的一半》。
And now you've written a new book called Half His Age.
这是一部小说。
It's a novel.
虽然是虚构作品，但其中融入了你个人生活的一些元素，我们稍后会谈到。
It's fiction, but there are elements of your own life that you brought into the story, which we'll get into.
不过首先，你能给我讲讲这本书吗？
First, though, why don't you tell me about this book?
《他年龄的一半》讲的是什么？
What is Half His Age about?
是的。
Yeah.
他年龄的一半，哇。
Half his age woah.
我变得特别认真。
I got so serious.
我
I
我喜欢这样。
like that.
我们可以涵盖这么多不同的语气，
We can we can span all these different tones,
拜托了。
please.
当时我就想，这是《纽约时报》。
Was like, this is The New York Times.
为什么它还带点性感呢？
Why is it sultry too, kind of?
我喜欢这种氛围。
I like that vibe.
请。
Please.
这感觉确实跟他一半的年龄所代表的主题很契合。
That feels like it actually kind of fits with what his half his age is about.
对吧？
Right?
一点性感的氛围？
A bit of a sultry vibe?
好的。
Alright.
是的。
Yes.
给我吧。
Give it to me.
所以，‘他年龄的一半’是通过一个极其孤独且贪婪的17岁女孩的视角，来探讨女性的愤怒、力量与欲望。
So half his age is an exploration of female rage and power and desire as told through the lens of a very lonely and ravenous 17 year old girl.
嗯。
Mhmm.
饥渴的。
Ravenous.
那就是饥渴的。
That is Ravenous.
特定的词。
Specific word.
告诉我你这么说是什么意思。
Tell me what you mean by that.
她极度渴望许多东西，非常多的东西。
She wants desperately so many things so many things.
她想要能让她感觉自己不同于现在的衣服。
She wants clothing that will make her feel like someone other than she is.
她想要那些她认为能让她感觉自己不同于现在的美妆产品。
She wants beauty items that she thinks will make her feel like something other than she is.
她想要一个她认为能让她感觉自己不同于本我的人。
She wants a person who she thinks might make her feel like something other than she is.
她正极度渴望在生活的诸多方面寻找身份、慰藉与安慰。
She's really desperately seeking identity and solace and comfort in many different areas of life.
她内心有着深不见底的渴望。
She wants there's this deep well of wanting.
是的。
Yeah.
让我们再进一步描绘一下场景。
And let's even sort of set the scene even more.
她，也就是主角沃多，今年17岁。
She's she Waldo, the main character, is 17.
她住在阿拉斯加。
She lives in Alaska.
她的家庭状况如何？
What's her family situation like?
所以，沃尔多出生在一个 teenage 母亲身上。
So Waldo was born to a teen mother.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
她母亲在16岁时生下了她，她的童年是在多个拖车公园度过的。
Her mother had her when she was 16 years old, and she spent her childhood in various trailer parks.
由于她的处境，以及来自母亲、社会等各种人的信息，她的自尊心并不高。
She has, you know, not great self esteem as a result of her circumstances and, you know, various messaging that she's gotten from various people, her mother, society.
现在，当我们在这本书中遇见她时，她刚进入高中最后一年。
And now, you know, when we meet her in the book, she's just going into her senior year of high school.
而我们正是在学校里遇见了这本书的另一位主角，科吉先生。
And it's in school that we meet the other main character of this book, mister Corgi.
跟我说说科吉先生吧。
Tell me about mister Corgi.
科吉先生。
Mister Corgi.
我我，暂停一下。
I I Pause.
我们从哪里开始呢？
Where do we begin?
不。
No.
你知道，我有两种方式可以回答这个问题：一种是批评他、为沃尔多辩护、保护沃尔多，这是我的一种本能反应。
You know, there's two ways that I could answer this, and one is this sort of, you know, skewering him and defending Waldo and protecting Waldo, which is one instinct that I have.
另一种则是更多地去理解他，发现他身上的人性。
And the other is to more to empathize with him and to find the humanity in him.
尽管在整个写作过程中这样做很有挑战性，但最终这变得至关重要，让他不至于显得太过脸谱化或过于明显的反派。
And as challenging as that was kind of throughout the writing process, that wound up being really, really pivotal so that he wasn't too mustache twirly or, you know, on the nose villainous.
所以，如果我试着去体会对他的同情，你知道，他是一位40岁的创意写作老师，怀有许多未能实现的梦想。
So mister Corgi, if I try to touch into my empathy toward him, you know, he's a 40 year old creative writing teacher who has so many failed dreams.
他为自己设定的每一个梦想都落空了。
None of his dreams for himself panned out.
他活在大量的遗憾和失望中，而这些情绪大多没有被处理过。
He's living with a lot of regret and a lot of disappointment, most of that unprocessed.
他只是勉强前行，日复一日地过着生活，履行着作为丈夫、父亲和教师的责任，尽管内心因未能实现自己理想中的生活而深感羞愧，却仍努力让自己感觉好受一点。
He's just kind of chugging along, going through the day to day, fulfilling his duties and obligations as a husband, as a father, as a teacher, and trying to feel okay with himself despite really feeling shame about not living up to his expectations for the life that he wanted for himself.
我的意思是，人们可能看不到，但我能注意到你闭上了眼睛。
I mean, people, you know, can't see this, but I have the the pleasure of you're you're closing your eyes.
我的意思是，很明显，你正在代入他的内心世界。
I mean, it's clear to me that you're inhabiting his mind.
你提到的同理心，我觉得非常深刻且重要，因为沃尔多17岁，而科吉先生你40岁，他们之间发展出了一段性关系和浪漫关系，一段极其亲密的关系，而这本书的其余部分正是探索了这段关系在他们两人生命中带来的高峰、低谷与后果。
And what you said about empathy, I think, is so striking and so important because Waldo, 17, mister Corgi, you know, 40, they begin a a sexual and a and a romantic relationship, a deeply intimate relationship that the rest of book explore sort of the peaks and the valleys and the fallout of, you know, in in both of their lives.
你能再多说说你刚才提到的吗？
Tell me more about what you said.
你说过有两种方式可以看待他，一种是评判，另一种是同理心，你提到在写这本书时，选择后者是个挣扎。
There's these two ways you could look at him as a you know, what was the it was like to really judge, and then the other was this empathy that you embodied, and you said that was a struggle when you were writing this book.
能再跟我多讲讲这一点吗？
Tell tell me a little bit more about that.
是的
Yeah.
我为这部小说写了无数个草稿，在最初的版本中，我把科吉写得太过直白，太过反派了。
I went through so many drafts of this novel, and in the beginning drafts, I really wrote Corgi as too on the nose, as too villainous.
我想这是因为作为作者的我介入了，因为我想要保护沃尔多。
And I think that was me as a as an author interfering because I wanted to protect Waldo.
因为我对她充满了爱与同情，却对科吉没有那么多。
Because I felt so much love and compassion for her and not as much for Corgi.
我对他抱有那些评判，我认为这些是这类情境下人们在初稿中很容易产生的简单判断。
I had those judgments toward him that I think are the very easy kind of, you know, first draft judgments that you're gonna have of a person in this kind of a situation.
当我回读这些草稿时，我意识到他显得不够真实。
And then when I would read those drafts back, I realized he just did not read grounded.
他显得不可信。
He did not read believable.
最终，因为他是以这种方式被呈现的，这对作为叙述者的沃尔多来说是一种伤害。
And ultimately, because he was reading that way, that was a disservice to Waldo as a narrator.
这让她显得不可信。
It made her less credible.
这让她变得不可靠，因为你可能会想：为什么她会喜欢这个人呢？
It made her unreliable because you're going, well, why is why does she even like this person?
她到底喜欢他什么？
What does she like about him?
如果她被否定，我就会失去这部小说。
And for her to to be discredited, if she were discredited, I would lose the novel.
所以我必须深入进去，真正地理解他，对他产生同情，并真切地体会身处他那种境况的感受。
So I had to go in and try to really empathize with him, really find that compassion for him, and really feel into the reality of being someone in his position.
还有成为沃尔多的真实感受。
And the reality of being Waldo.
这本书是以沃尔多的视角讲述的。
This book is told through Waldo's perspective.
我们真正进入了这个17岁少年的内心世界。
This 17 year old we're really in that 17 year old brain.
我觉得你非常出色地融入了那个年龄的状态。
I think you did a remarkable job of inhabiting that age.
效果非常好。
It was so effective.
实际上让我感到相当不舒服。
It was actually quite uncomfortable for me.
你精准地捕捉到了那种既自信又不安的奇妙混合感。
Like, you really hit that funny, fizzy mix of, like, bravado and insecurity.
你描述了Waldo如何把化妆当作保护、当作盔甲，但她却永远不满意。
The way that you describe how Waldo puts on her makeup like it's protection, like it's armor, but she's never satisfied.
她通过网上购物尝试各种新身份，她讨厌学校里的人，却又某种程度上想成为他们。
All the online shopping to kinda try on new identities, how she hates the people in school but also sort of wants to be them.
我们仿佛真正进入了青少年大脑那种剧烈波动的状态。
It's like we're really inhabiting this kind of intense fluctuation of the teenage brain.
为什么你选择通过Waldo的视角来讲述这个故事，而不是像第三人称叙述者那样来讲述呢？
Why was it important for you to tell this story through Waldo's perspective instead of, I don't know, like a like a third person narrator telling the story?
我
I
我也想再回到你的不适感上。
also wanna circle back to your discomfort.
每当有人提到不适感，我都特别感兴趣。
I have I'm so curious about about anytime somebody brings up discomfort, I'm interested.
天哪。
Oh my god.
问个问题吧。
Ask me a question.
我喜欢这样。
I love that.
什么，是的。
What yeah.
我的意思是，为什么我会感到不舒服？
I mean, in terms of, like, why was I uncomfortable?
是的。
Yes.
天啊。
Oh my gosh.
嗯，我觉得这是因为，我记得我那时候，一方面觉得自己特别厉害，另一方面又觉得自己一无是处。
Well, I think it's it's what I'm put it's like, I remember being this age and kind of simultaneously thinking I was the shit and thinking I was shit.
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know what I mean?
那种感觉就是，每时每刻都在过山车一样，甚至不是从天到天，而是一天里好多瞬间，我都觉得自己懂很多东西。
Like, it was just this this real roller coaster moment to moment, not even day to day, just like truly many moments in the day where I was like, you know, I know stuff.
我很成熟。
I'm mature.
天啊。
Oh my gosh.
我的意思是，其实我什么都不知道。
I mean, you know, I don't know anything.
这种身份不断摇摆的状态。
Like, this just this constant vacillation of my identity.
我觉得自己没有核心，也没有中心。
I feel like I didn't have a core or a center.
说到你提到的关于沃尔多的那种渴望。
And, you know, speak about the wanting that you said with Waldo.
天啊。
My gosh.
我渴望很多东西。
I wanted so much.
所以我觉得你把我这种状态说出来了。
So I just I feel like you put me in that.
不稳定是我想到的词，但我并不是在评判的意思。
Unstable is the word that comes to mind, but I don't mean that in a judgmental way either.
我只是想说，这种感觉就是这样。
I just mean, like, this kind of yeah.
那种充满不安全感和逞强的电击般的感觉。
Electric feelings of of insecurity and bravado.
那就是它让我回想起的东西。
That that's what it brought me back to.
是的。
Yeah.
太有趣了。
So interesting.
我也觉得‘不稳定’这个词再贴切不过了。
I also I feel like unstable is the perfect word.
我觉得17岁的时候没人是稳定的。
I feel like nobody's stable at 17.
有太多了
There's so much
内在的不稳定和不确定性。
inherent instability and uncertainty.
你不知道任何事情最终会落在哪里。
You don't know where anything's gonna land.
十七岁真的非常不舒服。
It is so uncomfortable to be 17.
确实是。
It is.
好吧，让我问一下，你是怎么做到的？抱歉。
Well, how did you get let me just ask, like, how did you as a sorry.
对一个这么年轻的人说这种话很无礼。
Rude to someone their age.
但根据我的研究，你33岁。
But from my research, you're 33.
对吗？
Is that correct?
我33岁。
I'm 33.
是的。
Yeah.
我31岁。
I'm 31.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们都是朋友。
So we're all friends here.
重新站在17岁的角度看待自己，感觉怎么样？
The what was it like to put yourself back in that 17 year old perspect?
你是怎么做到的？
How did you do it?
也许我最能与17岁的人产生共鸣的方式是，我总是说，如果情绪从1到10分级，是的。
Well, maybe this is the way I relate to a 17 year old most is that I always say if emotions are on a scale of a one to a 10 Yeah.
我根本不会感受到低于8分的情绪。
I don't really feel anything beneath an eight.
等等。
Like Wait.
现在我不会对一个17岁的孩子说你做了什么。
Now I'm not going to a 17 year old you did.
不。
No.
现在。
Now.
现在。
Now.
我同意你的看法。
I agree with you.
我是个感性的人。
I'm a feeler.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我真是个情感型的人。
I'm such a feeler.
我非常敏感，曾经为此挣扎了很久。
I'm so, you know, sensitive and fought that for a long time.
现在我接受了这一点，虽然这并不总是容易的，确实有时会很挑战，但我一直就是这样，所以我觉得这某种程度上是17岁的特点。
Now I'm, you know, I'm okay with it, and it's not that it's not ever challenging, certainly can be, but I've always been this way, and so I think that's kind of an element of being 17.
但那些极端的情绪，我确实再也无法感同身受了。
But the the real extremes, I definitely don't relate to anymore.
谢天谢地。
Thank God.
天哪。
Oh my Lord.
还有那种你所描述的，每天叙事剧烈摇摆的感觉。
And the feeling that the kind of what you're describing of the whiplash of narratives day to day.
我最差了。
I'm the worst.
是的。
Yeah.
我，是的。
I Yeah.
我最好。
I'm best.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
这非常令人困惑，非常混乱，你知道，我也不知道该怎么形容，只能说当时我只是勉强撑着。
It's it's quite disorienting, quite chaotic, and, you know, it's I I I don't know how to describe it other than it was just I was act okay.
我其实正在写另一部小说。
I was actually writing another novel.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
但我觉得，创意这种东西就像谈恋爱一样，做项目就跟维系一段关系一样。
But it was something I feel like this thing happens with ideas where it's like working on a project is like being in a relationship.
刚开始的时候是蜜月期，一切都太棒了，充满魅力、激情，简直是世上最好的事。
And in the beginning, it's the honeymoon phase, and it's amazing, and it's sexy, and it's hot, and it's the greatest thing.
然后它就变成了工作。
And then it becomes work.
哦。
Oh.
一旦变成工作，你其他那些小点子就开始显得特别诱人了。
And when it becomes work, all your other little ideas start looking real hot.
于是你就想，
And you're going,
那如果我跟它们约会呢？
well, what if I dated them?
我能只带它们出去一天，快速地约会一下吗？
Could I just take them out on one day real quick?
我当时深陷于另一部小说中，然后突然间，他的年龄开始在我脑海中不断浮现。
So I was pretty deep in this other novel, and then half his age just started pushing itself up on me.
我的意思是，沃多的声音特别开始强烈地在我脑海中涌现，体现在她说的每一句话里，一种几乎汹涌而来的愤怒感席卷我的全身——我想，这正是因为沃多一直在压抑自己的愤怒，而这正是她人物弧光的关键所在。
And what I mean by that is that Waldo's voice specifically started really pushing itself up on me in lines that she would say and just sort of this overwhelming almost flush of anger kind of would surge through my body, which is I think, you know, much of Waldo is really she's suppressing her anger, and I think that's really a key element of her arc.
是的。
Yeah.
你在整本书中都能感受到沃多非常愤怒。
You do get that sense throughout the book that Waldo is very angry.
我认为这是一种非常有力的情感，从沃多的视角去体验这种情绪。
And I think that's a quite powerful emotion, you know, to to experience from from Waldo's point of view.
我们能感受到她对自身处境的愤怒，对科吉先生的愤怒。
We get this sense of anger, anger towards her situation, anger towards mister Corgi.
你知道吗，关于这个情节，我觉得很重要的一点是，在沃尔多和科吉先生的肉体关系中，主动发起的人是沃尔多。
You know, another thing too about this account that I think is important is that in this physical relationship with mister Corgi, it's Waldo who makes the first move.
你能谈谈这个选择吗？
Can you talk to me about that choice?
比如，这对你们来说重要吗？
Like, was that important to you?
如果重要，那为什么？
And if so, why?
对我来说，让沃尔多表现得非常主动、非常直接、非常坚定、非常大胆，这一点至关重要，因为她终究才17岁。
It was so important to me that Waldo be very aggressive, very forward, very adamant, very bold, because ultimately, she is still 17.
是的。
Mhmm.
无论她以何种方式推动、坚持、把自己插入到这个人、这个关系中，她都只是个17岁的孩子。
This in whatever ways she pushes, asserts, inserts herself onto this person, into this dynamic, she's 17.
我其实一直努力避免在写这本书时变得说教或指手画脚，可现在我又要开始说教了。
And I and I really tried not to be, you know, moralistic or or finger wagging the writing of the book, and here I am about to get moralistic.
我坚持写到了300页，但现在——
I managed to go 300 pages, and now But now
一切终于都爆发了，我的朋友。
it all comes out, my friend.
现在一切都浮出水面了。
Now it all comes up.
但你知道，不管这个女孩做什么，不管她多么主动地扑向他，他仍然是40岁，仍然是我们的老师。
But, you know, it is it's like no matter what this girl does, no matter how she she could throw herself at his feet, He's still 40, and he's still our teacher.
如果科吉先生先主动，这个故事会有什么不同？
If mister Corgi had made the first move, what would be different about that story?
我觉得这会是一个更简单的故事。
I think it would be an easier story.
我觉得这会是一个你能更快地做出评判的故事，嗯。
I think it would be one where you can label judgment a lot quicker Mhmm.
你可以迅速地给科吉和沃尔多贴上标签，把他们归入某种固定模式，然后说：好吧，我知道这个故事讲的是什么了。
And you can write off both Corgi and Waldo in a sense, And you can kind of instantly put them into these boxes and go, okay, I know what this story is.
我知道这会变成什么样。
I know I know what this is gonna be.
你知道，说实话，你其实可以在那会儿就合上书了。
You know, you really, I think you could close the book at that point, to be honest.
你根本不需要读下去。
You wouldn't need to read it.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
从道德上讲，这会非常明确。
It would be very clear morally.
但你却选择写了这本书，我的意思是，你自己说过‘不舒服’这个词，这本书更多地存在于一种灰色地带，因为瓦尔多想要他。
But instead, you chose to write this book that I mean, you've said the word uncomfortable, that exists, like, much more in sort of a gray area because Waldo wants, like, Waldo wants him.
甚至在这些亲密场景中，实际上也存在着一种真正的相互性。
And and even in these sex scenes, I mean, there's, like, a real kind of mutuality there.
对吧？
Right?
这并不是一个人单方面追求另一个人。
It's not just one person pursuing the other.
他们彼此都渴望对方。
They're both hungry for each other.
在《他年龄的一半》中，沃尔多说过：性是我唯一一个需求不过分、所有渴望都被接纳的地方。
There's this quote from half his age where Waldo says, sex is the one place where my needs aren't too big and all of my yearning is acceptable.
这是我唯一能展现内心深井的地方。
The one place where I can show how deep the well is within me.
这是我唯一可以哀求、抱怨、尖叫着希望被填满的地方。
The one place I can beg and whine and scream to have it filled.
所以，性就像她对这种无法满足的渴望的体现，正如我们之前讨论的那样。
So it's like sex is is this representation of her wanting of this kind of unquenchable need as we've talked about.
当然。
Definitely.
我觉得这是年轻女性常见的经历。
I think that's such a common experience for young women.
这确实是我的经历。
It was certainly my experience.
这确实是我的每一位女性朋友的真实经历。
It was certainly the experience of literally every one of my female friends.
提出来吧。
Bring it up.
这非常亲密。
It's very intimate.
是的。
Yeah.
而且在那个年纪，我们可能连承认自己的需求都做不到，更不用说向别人表达了。
And it's like, you know, at that age, we don't necessarily know how to maybe even acknowledge our needs, let alone articulate them to somebody else.
嗯。
Mhmm.
情感需求，并不新鲜
Emotional needs, not new
情感需求。
Emotional needs.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
所以我认为，性在某种程度上成了一个替代品，或者我们以为能容纳所有需求的东西，嗯。
And so I think sex kind of acts as this placeholder or this thing that we think can house all of our needs that we think Mhmm.
好吧，你知道，我希望他能对我更好些，多花点时间陪我，至少能认可我的情绪。
Okay, well, you know, I want him to treat me better, to make more time for me, to, you know, acknowledge my emotions instead.
难道他就只能跟我做爱吗？因为这似乎是我唯一能得到的？
Well, can he just fuck me because that's all I think I can get?
也许，这就是我觉得自己值得拥有的全部。
Maybe that's all I think I'm worth.
也许我只是还不知道如何表达这些其他的需求。
Maybe maybe I just don't know how to vocalize those other needs yet.
在其他访谈中，你提到你曾经历过一段年龄差距的关系，当时你大约18岁。
In other interviews, you shared that you had an experience with an age gap relationship that started when you were around 18.
写‘他年龄的一半’对你来说，是处理那段经历的一种方式吗？
Was writing half his age a way to process that experience for you?
在某些方面，我觉得是的。
In some ways, I think so.
你知道，我 definitely 认为那种重叠的萌芽正是这部小说的起点。
You know, I definitely think that seed of that overlap was the jumping off point for the novel.
当然，沃尔多是她自己的角色，《他年龄的一半》也是一个独立的故事，我知道很多人会把我和这个故事联系起来。
And then, of course, you know, Waldo's her own character and and and Half His Age is its own story, and and I know so many people will project me onto this.
我知道。
I'm aware.
我不介意这样。
I'm fine with that.
不过，我认为这是一种误解，因为沃尔多确实是一个独立的角色，值得被如此看待。
Although, I do think it is a misread because, you know, Waldo truly truly is her own character and deserves to be seen for that.
但我发现写作是我处理那些过去可能尚未完全消化的事情的一种方式。
But I do find writing is a way for me to process things that I maybe hadn't processed fully from my past.
我认为写作是我为那些曾经缺乏 closure 的领域找到 closure 的一种方式。
I do think writing is a way for me to find closure in areas where I didn't have closure.
你提到，愤怒是那种将你拉向这本书、拉向这个故事的主导情绪。
Well, you mentioned that it was anger was the kind of anchoring emotion that pulled, you know, you towards this this book into this story.
所以看起来，也许甚至在潜意识里，你对这段经历存在着需要去处理的愤怒。
So it seems like there must have maybe even, you know, subconsciously been anger around this experience that you perhaps needed to work through.
这种感觉对吗？
Does that feel true?
是的。
Yes.
写了好几个草稿之后。
Several drafts in.
我根本不知道自己为什么要写这本书，也不想去分析原因。
I literally did not know why I was writing this book and I didn't want to analyze that.
我不想弄明白。
I didn't want to figure it out.
我只是想，好吧，这些文字是从我身上流出来的。
I just thought, okay, this is coming through me.
很好。
Great.
我们就顺其自然吧。
Let's just go with it.
写了几稿之后，我回头再看，拿着红笔和荧光笔审阅时，突然意识到：天啊。
And then a few drafts in, I looked back over it and, you know, I was looking over it with a red pen and a highlighter and realizing, oh my god.
我对过去的一些经历积压了如此多未处理的愤怒。
I have so much unprocessed anger about situations from my past.
我认为，正是这种情绪动力推动着这本书的诞生。
I think that is the emotional charge that is making this book happen.
意识到这一点时感觉如何？
How did it feel to realize that?
很震撼，我想，因为你知道，我在治疗中已经做了很多工作。
Jarring, I guess, because, you know, I've I've done so much work in therapy.
我做了很多，你知道的，关于自己的个人成长，我非常重视个人成长。
I've done so much, you know, personal work on myself, and I really, really value personal growth.
这并不是说我一直在想这段关系。
And it's something that I it's not like I'm thinking about this relationship.
那已经是很久以前的事了。
It's far in the past.
我不会去想它。
I'm not thinking about it.
我一点也不觉得它给我带来了负担。
I don't feel burdened by it in any way.
我根本不会去想，哦，你知道的，这真的不是我会去想的事情。
I'm not thinking like, oh, you know, I'm it's really not something that I think about.
因此，意识到还有这么多未处理、亟待表达的情绪，让我感到震惊。
And so the fact that there was clearly so much left to process that needed to come out about it was shocking.
请继续关注我们。
Stay with us.
我是贾德森·琼斯。
I'm Judson Jones.
我是《纽约时报》的记者兼气象学家。
I'm a reporter and meteorologist at The New York Times.
二十多年来，我一直报道极端天气，而由于气候变化，极端天气正变得越来越严重，及时、准确的气象信息也变得愈发重要。
For about two decades, I've been covering extreme weather, which is getting worse because of climate change, and it's becoming more important to get timely and accurate weather information.
因此，我们通过定制化的简讯，提前最多三天告知您可能影响您或您关心的地区的极端天气。
That's why we send these customized newsletters letting you know up to three days in advance about extreme weather that could impact you or a place you care about.
在《纽约时报》，您可以确信，我们发布的每一条内容都基于我们所能获得的最准确、经过验证的科学信息，因为我们希望您能据此做出实时的生活决策。
At The Times, you can be confident that everything we publish is based off the most accurate scientific and vetted information available to us because we want you to be able to make real time decisions about how to go about your life.
这种工作让订阅《纽约时报》变得如此有价值，也是您支持基于事实的独立新闻的方式。
This is the kind of work that makes subscribing to The New York Times so valuable, and it's how you can support fact based independent journalism.
所以，如果您想订阅，请访问 nytimes.com/subscribe。
So if you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com/subscribe.
无论您愿意分享多少，能否告诉我您大约18岁时发生的那段关系？
However much again you feel comfortable sharing, can you tell me about that relationship that happened when you were around 18?
是的。
Yeah.
我当时18岁。
I was 18.
他三十多岁。
He was in his mid thirties.
我当时非常天真，远不如沃尔多。
And I was a very I was so much more naive than Waldo.
沃尔多比我大胆得多。
Waldo is so much bolder than I was.
她敏锐得多，而且
She's so much more perceptive and
而且性经验很丰富。
And sexually experienced.
这是他们的重要部分。
That's a big part of them.
没错。
Exactly.
而且性经验很丰富。
And sexually experienced.
我很有洞察力，但我常常压抑自己的直觉，完全不去理会它们。
I was perceptive, but I would kinda shove down my instincts and not address them at all.
Waldo 对自己对每件事的想法和感受都极其清醒。
Waldo's glaringly aware of how she thinks and feels about everything at all times.
我尊重她这一点。
I respect her for it.
但我当时非常压抑。
But I was very suppressed.
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我从小是摩门教徒。
I grew up Mormon.
尽管那时我的家人已经好几年没去教堂了，但我内心仍然深深植根于那种摩门教的价值观。
And though my family hadn't really been to church, you know, in a in a few years at that point, I still really had that kind of Mormon value system embedded in me.
所以性是邪恶的，我不会在结婚前做这种事，甚至性欲也被视为扭曲和不正当的。
And so sex was bad and not something I was going to do until marriage, and even sexuality was sort of perverse and viewed as perverse.
我实际上对男性完全没有经验。
And and I I had literally no experience with men at all.
哇。
Wow.
连一个吻都没有过。
Like, not even a kiss.
让我想想。
Let's see.
我只接过一次吻。
I had had one kiss.
我曾在田纳西州纳什维尔的一家汉普顿酒店及套房有过一次接吻。
I'd had one kiss in a Hampton Inn and Suites in Nashville, Tennessee.
致敬一下。
Shout out.
那感觉很热烈。
It was hot.
好吧。
Okay.
所以你有过接吻，但再没有别的了。
So you had a kiss, but nothing
没错，就是这样。
beyond Exactly.
再没有别的了。
Nothing beyond that.
我从来没约过会，一点都没有。
Had never been on a date, like, nothing.
然后发生了这件事，我和这个人之间的关系。
And then this happened, this relationship with this person.
一开始，他有女朋友。
And and initially, he was he had a girlfriend.
他和女朋友住在一起。
He he lived with his girlfriend.
哇哦。
Woah.
是的。
Yeah.
有几个月他和她在一起，但我们基本上就像一对情侣，你知道的，没错。
And there were a few months where he was with her, and and we were essentially together, you know, and yeah.
我能问你一个问题吗？回到18岁的你，是什么吸引了你对他感兴趣？
Can I ask you, like, putting yourself back, 18 year old you, like, what intrigued you about him?
和他在一起的时候，你感觉如何？
How did you feel when you were with him?
他对我来说很真实。
He seemed real to me.
你知道的，在好莱坞长大，这个世界有它自己的一套运作方式，我从来就没真正理解过它的规则。
You know, growing up in Hollywood, there is just a certain way that world operates, and it's really never been one that I feel like I've understood the rules of.
我觉得好莱坞有一套秘密代码，每个人都被告诉了，每个人都被点拨过好莱坞的规则，而我却坐在这里，拿着一根小魔杖。
It feels like there is a secret code to Hollywood that everyone was told, everyone was just tapped on the head with rules of Hollywood, and I'm sitting here going, little wand.
是的。
Yeah.
我一直在想，任何人当时到底在说什么？
And I'm going, what is literally anybody saying at any given time?
为什么没人敢表达自己的观点？
Why can nobody own an opinion?
拜托了，有谁能为了上帝的名义，勇敢地表达自己的观点吗？
Like, can we please, somebody for the love of God, own their opinions?
总之，我爱好莱坞。
Anyway, I love Hollywood.
很棒。
It's great.
我说，听起来应该有很多有趣的派对，是吗？
I was say, sounds like there'd be fun parties, question mark.
是的，确实如此。
It's yeah.
然后呢，我遇到了一个人，他看起来很真实，而且显得
And and and I then I, you know, I met this person who just seemed real and seemed
他们是在工作中认识的吗？
And were they I've heard another you met them at works.
他们仍然属于那个世界，但确实如此。
They were still part of the world, but Yeah.
他们感觉和那个世界不一样。
They felt Different from the world.
是的。
Yeah.
他们对我来说没有好莱坞的感觉。
They didn't feel Hollywood to me.
他们看起来不像会说那种暗语的人。
They didn't seem like they spoke in that kind of code.
这不是一个眨眼和枪的动作，但好莱坞真的给人一种眨眼和枪的感觉，因为人们一直在对你喋喋不休。
It's it's not a wink and a gun, but Hollywood really does kinda feel like a wink and a gun, as people are just talking at you all the time.
但他就是感觉不一样，而且显得很脆弱。
But he he just felt different and he seemed vulnerable.
他对自己和生活显得很坦诚。
He seemed honest about, you know, himself and and and his life.
我被他吸引了。
I I was attracted to him.
那你对他有身体上的吸引力吗？
And you were physically attracted to him?
是的。
Yes.
不过，你知道，这里确实有些重叠，因为当沃尔多第一次见到科吉先生时，她非常惊讶自己会对一个不符合传统审美的人产生吸引力。
Although, you know, I suppose there is some overlap here because when when Waldo first meets mister Corgi, she's really shocked that she is attracted to someone who is not conventionally attractive.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
在她人生的这个阶段，她只对长得好看的人产生过吸引力。
At this point in her life, she's only been attracted to people who are attractive.
明白。
Yes.
她提到自己就像是，你知道的，那种什么人？
She calls out that she's like, you know, the what's it?
我可能会把你说的话说得不够好听，但比如他脸上的毛孔、肚子上的赘肉，还有这类特征。
I'm gonna butcher your beautiful words, but like the pores on his face and the paunch and the these types of things.
她一边承认这些缺点，一边又说，我就是想要他那布满皱纹的睾丸。
She, like, acknowledges these at the same time as being like, I want his wrinkly balls.
我的意思是，你在书里提到过这一点。
I mean, that's something that you mentioned in the book.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
她被他吸引，却并不真正知道为什么，因为这以前从未发生过。
She's drawn to him and doesn't really doesn't know why because this has never happened before.
而且，你知道，我的经历中确实有一些重叠，这个人并不是我特别觉得外表有吸引力的那种，但我却对他非常有吸引力。
And, you know, that there there was certainly some overlap in my experience where this is not somebody who I I found, you know, particularly physically attractive, and yet I felt very attracted to him.
这是你第一次感受到如此强烈的生理吸引吗？
Was this the kind of first time you'd felt that intense physical attraction?
百分之百。
100%.
百分之百。
100%.
这是一种强烈的、必须和这个人在一起的渴望般的吸引力。
It was this hungry kind of I have to be with this person attraction.
是的。
Yeah.
我懂。
I know it.
我的意思是，我也有这种感觉。
I mean, I felt it.
我也记得第一次那种感觉。
And I can also remember that first time.
我们之前谈到了是什么吸引你靠近他，但和他在一起时，他让你有什么样的感受？
How did we talked about what drew you to him, but how did he make you feel when you were with him?
被以一种别人根本无法理解的方式看待。
Seen in a way that others really couldn't.
我觉得，大多数其他人其实是在把我当成一个乖乖女摩门教徒。
I think I think most other people were sort of taking my I mean, it was like a goody two shoes Mormon.
我喜欢，我说话时用了不同的声音。
I like, I spoke in a different voice.
就像，嗯。
It's like, mhmm.
是的，先生。
Yes, sir.
就像，特别烦人，惹人厌。
Like, so annoying, obnoxious.
我认为其他人把那些行为表面化了，相信我就是那样的人。
And I think other people took those behaviors at face value and believed that I was that.
他身上有种东西，像是在问：到底发生了什么？
And there was something in him that was like, what's really going on?
那种行为下面到底藏着什么？
Like, what's underneath that?
我知道，我知道你比你表现出来的要聪明得多。
I know I know you're smarter than you're pretending to be.
我知道你看到的比你表现出来的要多。
I know you're seeing more than you're pretending to.
有什么在困扰着你？
What's kicking around?
因此，通过他人，我获得了以前从未有过的了解自己的机会。
And so in that way, there was sort of an opportunity for me to learn more about myself than I had before through others.
对于真实版本的你被他人看见，这一定是非常有肯定意义的。
That must have been really validating for the for a realer version of you to be seen by someone.
是的。
Yeah.
确实是。
It was.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，我现在对这件事有复杂的情感。
Of course, have complicated feelings about that now.
但当然了。
But Well, of course.
当然。
Of course.
我们会谈到那些的。
We will get to those.
但我觉得有趣的是，存在于你18岁大脑的这种状态中。
But in the I think it's interesting to sort of exist because in the space of of your 18 year old brain.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我们谈过它有多重要。
I mean, we talked about how important it is.
再说一遍，你不是瓦尔多。
Again, you are not Waldo.
Waldo不是你。
Waldo is not you.
做出这个区分很重要。
It's, like, important to make that distinction.
你知道，我们花了太多时间在Waldo的脑子里。
You know, we spend so much time in Waldo's brain.
这很有启发性。
It's illuminating.
而现在，你让我们进入了你真实的想法，感受到‘我被看见了’。
And now you're letting us into, like, what was actually your being in your brain, being like, I'm I'm being seen.
其他人不会这样看我。
Other people don't see me in this way.
这个人感觉很真实。
This person feels real.
这个人感觉不一样。
This person feels different.
一开始，你们交往的时候，你说过那段时间。
For the first, you said bit of time while you were seeing each other.
这个男人当时有伴侣。
This man was in a relationship.
所以这更像是一段秘密关系？
So was it a it was more of a secret.
这仅仅是你俩之间的事？
This was just between you two?
是的。
Yes.
这是一段秘密，而且是个必须保密的事，带来了巨大的压力。
It was a secret, and it was a thing that it was a secret, and it was a massive stressor.
现在回想起来，我清楚地看到代际创伤与我的经历、成长背景之间的必然联系，也明白了我为什么最初会被这种情境吸引。
And I think, you know, back on that now and the undeniable link between generational trauma and my experience and my upbringing and why I was attracted to that kind of a situation in the first place.
当然，现在回头看，简直疯狂——这个人明明和女朋友同住，处处都是危险信号，一个接一个，接二连三。
Now, of course, it seems utterly insane to be, like, wait, this person has a girlfriend that he lives with and, like, just red flags on red flags on red flags on red flags.
但当时，这种关系带来的压力让我身体感到熟悉，甚至在这种压力中有一种奇怪的安心感。
But at the time, there was something that my body was familiar with in the stress that this relationship provided me and a strange comfort in that stress.
这听起来可能很恶心。
This may sound gross.
这听起来可能很令人困惑，但我认为任何在功能失调家庭中长大的人都能完全理解我在说什么。
This may sound confusing, but I think anyone who grew up in a dysfunctional family knows exactly what I'm talking about.
我从小父母就大喊大叫、不断争吵，家里总是乱糟糟的。
I grew up with, you know, parents screaming and and fighting and constantly, and it was really chaotic.
所以我的身体，我认为，把这种混乱当作常态，当作家的感觉。
And so my body, I think, expected and accepted that kind of chaos as normalcy as home.
我是说，你们两人之间的亲密关系、性关系是怎样的？
I mean, the intimate dynamic, the sexual dynamic between the two of you.
你提到在这段关系之前你没什么经验。
You mentioned that you were not experienced before this relationship.
天啊，我根本不知道精液是什么。
Oh, I literally did not know what cum was.
我不知道精液是什么。
I did not know what cum was.
你真的不知道精液是什么。
You did not know what cum was.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，确实有过我们不知道精液是什么的阶段。
I mean, it's there is a time where we don't know what cum is.
我的意思是，我
I mean, I'm
18岁，但不是。
18, but No.
也许我当时就是那种小孩。
Maybe that's where I was at kids.
我正试着想想，比如，兴趣，好吧。
I'm trying to, like, think about, like, interest okay.
那么，发现这一切是什么感觉？
And and what was it like to discover?
这个问题我以前在节目中从未问过。
That's not a question I've ever asked on the show before.
发现什么是精液的感觉是什么样的？
What was it like to discover what cum was?
但这确实是
But that is
是的。
Yeah.
那感觉很恶心。
The It was nasty.
这让我想知道该怎么问这个问题？
And and this is like a how do I ask this?
因为之前在对话中，你提到过，对你来说，性逐渐成为关系中非常重要的一部分，或者说是情感需求的寄托。
It's like because earlier on in the conversation, you were talking about how, you know, sex for you became a really important part of relationships or like a container for emotional needs.
还有，我如何感受到自己的价值，坦白说。
And how I felt value, frankly.
我根本看不到或理解自己在其他方面的价值。
I didn't really see or understand my value in other areas at all.
是的，我确实如此。
I yeah.
我真的相信我的价值来自于性。
I I really believed that my value came from sex.
那这个呢？这是什么？
And this what was it this?
因为这是你的第一次性关系。
Because this was your first sexual relationship.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这些神经通路正是在这里建立起来的。
So it's where these sort of neural pathways were being connected.
如果要说的话，性在这段关系中扮演了什么角色，它又是如何让你觉得这决定了你的价值？
If it were like, how did sex factor into this relationship, and how did it sort of teach you this is determinant of my worth?
嗯，
Well,
我先跟你分享那个关于射精的故事，因为那是...好吧。
I'll share the cum story with you first because that was Okay.
算是冰山一角吧。
Sort of the tip of the iceberg.
对吧？
Right?
当然。
Of course.
就是，他之前有过一个女朋友。
Where so he'd, you know, he'd had a girlfriend.
这段关系大概是在，嗯，八月份左右开始的。
This was maybe it began in, you know, August or so.
到了十月、十一月，事情变得对我来说实在太难了。
And then by October, November, it was really it was becoming too difficult for me.
所以我才说，我觉得我真的再也撑不下去了。
And so I was the one who was like, I I don't think I can do this anymore.
而当你这么说的时候，恰恰就是那一刻——我要离开她了。
And then, of course, the moment that you say that is the moment well, I'm leaving her.
我要离开她。
I'm gonna leave her.
是的。
Right.
我发誓我要离开他，他最终
The I'm I swear I'm going to He eventually
真的离开了。
did.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
我打算明天做。
It's it was I'm gonna do tomorrow.
我打算下周做。
I'm gonna next week.
我打算做，但一直被推迟。
I'm gonna and it just kept getting punted.
然后有一个宏大的计划，他打算出城去探亲过圣诞节。
And then there was this big kind of grand plan where he was gonna go out of town to visit family for Christmas.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他打算回来后和她分手。
And he was gonna break up with her when he returned.
所以他要去和女朋友分手，然后我再去接他。
So he's gonna go break up with his girlfriend, and then I'm supposed to pick him up.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们打算去我公寓。
And so we're gonna go to my apartment.
但我妈妈生病了，于是她和我爸爸、奶奶、爷爷、三个兄弟一起来到我公寓。
But then my mom's sick, so then she comes to my apartment with, like, my dad, my grandma, my grandpa, my three brothers.
于是我的公寓里一下子挤满了庞大的摩门教家庭，显得特别土气。
So it's just like this big Mormon dorky family in my apartment.
而我正试图把我的30岁男朋友带回家。
And I'm, like, trying to bring my 30 year old boyfriend home.
对吧？
Right?
所以我就想，好吧。
So then I'm like, okay.
有点像，是的，各种最坏的情况都考虑到了。
Sort of like, yeah, worst case scenarios and all directions.
最坏的情况。
Worst case scenario.
没错。
Exactly.
所以我就想，好吧。
So then I I'm like, okay.
我在这里能解决问题吗？
I can I can problem solve here?
我知道我要做什么了。
I know what I'll do.
我给我们订一家谢拉顿环球酒店的房间。
I'll get us a room at the Sheraton Universal.
不是你之前住过的汉普顿酒店，
Not the Hampton Inn where you had your
那里是你第一次接吻的地方。
first kiss.
我本该回去的。
Should've gone back.
他们待我很好。
They've treated me well.
那些热乎乎的饼干很棒。
Those warm cookies are great.
呃。
Ugh.
所以我订了谢拉顿环球酒店一晚的住宿。
So I got a I got a a night stay at the Sheraton Universal.
我去接了他。
I picked him up.
他醉得不省人事，而那时我一口酒精都没喝过。
He was drunk off his ass, which I had never had a sip of alcohol at this point.
哎哟。
Oof.
嗯。
Mhmm.
或者对。
Or yeah.
也许我当时确实喝了一小口。
Maybe I had had one sip at this point.
我不记得具体时间线了，但当时我绝对没喝过一整杯酒精饮料。
I don't know the timeline, but I certainly had never had like a glass of alcohol at this point.
所以我根本不知道他完全醉了。
And so I didn't know that he was completely drunk.
现在我才明白，他当时是醉得厉害，非常非常非常非常非常醉。
Like, now I get, oh, he was way, way, way, way, way drunk.
我当时还以为他可能就喝了一杯，这就是人喝醉的样子。
Was like, I didn't know if he'd had one drink and this is what a person looked like.
他摇摇晃晃地到处走。
He's like stumbling around.
他的衬衫上全是啤酒渍。
There's beer stains all on his shirt.
一团糟。
Just a mess.
我在大堂里已经有点尴尬了。
And I'm like a little embarrassed already in the lobby.
对吧？
Right?
因为他一直在摇摇晃晃地走。
Because he's just stumbling around.
他不停地撞电梯门。
He's like banging up against the elevator door.
我们到了房间。
We get up to our room.
我记得他连房卡都刷不进去，怎么都用不了。
He can't even I remember he couldn't swipe the key card on he couldn't get it to work.
于是我拿过房卡，我们进房间后，他开始哭泣，怀疑自己是否做出了正确的选择，觉得自己犯了错。
So I take the key card, we go inside, and then he's sobbing and wondering if he made the right choice, thinking he made a mistake.
他分手了。
He broke up.
他刚刚刚分手。
He just he just broken up.
他 literally 刚刚经历完这段分手。
Literally just left this breakup.
所以他正处于这段分手的痛苦中，情绪非常激动，然后要求我给他口交。
So he's in the throes of that and and really emotional, and then asks me to give him a blow job.
因为到目前为止，我一直说，我结婚前不会发生性关系。
Because up to this point, I have said, I don't do sex till marriage.
我不会做那种事。
I'm not gonna do that.
我其实甚至都不太确定。
I don't I mean, I didn't even really know.
我不知道该怎么做。
I wouldn't have known how to do it.
是的。
Mhmm.
到那时为止，我们只限于接吻。
And so it had just been sort of kissing up to that point.
然后他说，你知道，我需要知道你对做这件事感到舒服。
And then he says, you know, I I need to know that you're comfortable doing something.
我不介意没有性生活，但我需要知道你会做点什么，因为我必须满足我的需求，他是这么说的。
I'm okay not having sex, but I need to know that you you'll do something because I need I need my I have to have my needs met, he had said.
哇。
Wow.
这种说法真的很特别。
That is really interesting language.
这难道不是一种很特别的说法吗？
Isn't that interesting language?
所以我感到一阵焦虑，那种全身像着了火一样的焦虑。
And so I felt a flood of anxiety, like full body fire anxiety.
我只是在想，好吧，我得想办法做这件我根本不会做的事。
I'm just thinking, okay, I have to figure out how to do this thing that I don't know how to do.
于是我问他
So I was like asking him
否则我就要
Or else I'll
失去他了。
lose him.
这就是代价，真够狠的。
Mean, that's the stakes.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
所以一开始，我说了不。
So then and at first, I said no.
我说了好几次不，然后我就说，我要走了，之类的话，这完全符合我们整体的相处模式。
I said no, you know, a couple times, and then it was okay, I'm leaving, know, that kind of thing, which was very much our our dynamic as a whole.
实在是太不健康了。
Was just so unhealthy.
但当然，我也包含在其中。
But, of course, I'm included in that.
我并不是把责任全推给他。
I'm not just putting that on him.
但他开始告诉我该怎么做，于是我给他口交。
But then he he starts telling me kind of how to do it, and so I'm giving him the blow job.
然后，他说，我要射了。
And then, you know, he says, I'm gonna come.
我不知道那是什么意思。
I don't know what that means.
我想，嗯，射在哪里？
I figure, like, come where?
你在说什么？
What are you talking?
你是坐起来了吗？
Like, are you sitting up?
就是，我不知道那是什么意思。
Like, that you know, I didn't know what that meant.
然后它就射进我嘴里了，我说有什么东西出来了，有什么东西出来了。
And then it came in my mouth, and I said something came out, something came out.
我冲到水槽边，心想他是不是往我嘴里撒尿了。
And I, like, ran to the sink, and I was like, I thought he peed in my mouth.
一开始，天啊。
Like like, first, was, oh my god.
他往我嘴里撒尿了。
He peed in my mouth.
但后来我想，这味道不对，我的意思是，我从来没尝过尿，但这味道跟我想象中尿的味道不一样。
But then I'm like, this doesn't look I mean, I've never tasted pee, but it doesn't taste like what I think pee would taste like.
当时真是特别混乱，身体也很不舒服，但现在回想起来却特别好笑。
And it was just so much confusion, so much body discomfort, and so much comedy gold now.
我本来想说
I was gonna say
我的意思是，我之所以发出这种难过的笑声，是因为这部分内容，就像这本书里的某些部分一样，其实挺搞笑的。
I mean, I'm making these sort of, like, sad laughter because, like, there are parts of this just as there are parts of this book that are funny.
这里确实有幽默之处。
Like, there is humor here.
当你觉得‘这到底是什么鬼东西？’的时候，其实就有幽默感。
There is humor in being like, what the heck is this?
你知道的吧？
You know?
但当你退一步来看，就能明白了。
But but then you sort of zoom out and you understand.
你能看到这件事发生的背景，以及其中运作的权力关系。
You see the context in which, you know, this is happening and the power dynamics that are operating here.
所以，这种幽默是和另一些东西并存的。
And so it is it doesn't it's like humor alongside of this other thing.
我的意思是，这件事发生了，你还记得你当时的感觉吗？
I mean, this happened, do you remember how you felt?
你是不是觉得，我做到了。
Were you like, I did it.
就像，我抓住他了。
Like, he's I've got him.
就像，我要留住他。
Like, I'm keeping him.
你的感受是什么？如果你还记得的话？
What what was the what was your feeling, if you can remember?
我觉得我当时非常颤抖和不确定，而且我觉得自己没做好。
I think I felt very shaky and uncertain, and I I didn't think I'd done a good job.
就像，我从小就是一个取悦他人的人，总是不断评估自己在多大程度上迎合了别人的需要和愿望。
Like, I you know, growing up as that people pleaser, was really always reading myself on the performance of how much I was accommodating somebody else's needs and desires.
所以，是的。
So it was Yeah.
你知道，那次口交我表现得怎么样？
You know, how did I do on that blow job?
哦，我觉得我没做好，你知道的。
Oh, I don't think I did well, you know.
于是，我就一直担心自己其实没做好。
And so then it was just stress of thinking I I hadn't really done well.
后来我进步了。
And I got better.
别担心。
Don't worry.
我当时紧张得要命，只知道别
I was freaking out to know Don't
你别担心。
you worry.
但你知道，我很高兴你提到幽默这个话题，因为我觉得这确实是整个事情中重要的一部分。
But, you know, I I am I'm glad you you bring up this humor thing too because I think, you know, I I think it's an important piece of of all of this.
我认为在黑暗的话题中，幽默和轻松感无处不在，而假装不存在反而是否认了事实的真相。
I think there's so much humor and levity in dark subject matter, and and to pretend there isn't is actually denying the truth of it.
我认为有一种方式，幽默可能会让事情变得轻浮或削弱主题本身。
And I think there's a way of of there's a way where humor can make something flippant or undermine the subject matter.
我不喜欢那样。
And I don't like that.
我不认为那样做是正确的，我觉得那是一种防御机制式的回避，我一般不喜欢读那些东西，也不喜欢看那些东西。
I I don't think that I think that's kind of deflective in a defense mechanism, and I I generally don't enjoy reading those things, watching those things.
它们就是无法引起我的共鸣。
They just don't resonate with me.
但我确实认为，幽默与悲剧结合可以非常真实且极具价值。
But I do think there is an element of of humor and tragedy that can be really honest and really valuable.
我认为，否则的话，事情可能会显得过于戏剧化且不真诚。
I think otherwise, something can just be too kind of melodramatic and and insincere in that way.
在这段人生经历或这段关系中，还有没有其他让你觉得带点幽默感的时刻？
Is there another moment from this time in your life, from this relationship that has that kind of that you think about with some amount of humor?
还有没有其他让你想起的时刻？
Is there another moment that comes to mind?
我的意思是，当时我生活的方方面面都是如此。
I mean, literally every element of my life that was happening at that at that point.
天哪。
Jeez.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时18岁，正在尼克儿童频道的节目里，和一个30岁的人交往，而与此同时我妈妈正在去世，这种强烈的对比——那个世界中的高潮与低谷，常常特别滑稽，你知道的。
I was 18 on a on a Nickelodeon show in a relationship with a 30 year old person while my mom was dying, and this sort of juxtaposition, the highs and lows of that world were were oftentimes really funny, you know.
当时确实很难，但几乎在任何时刻、任何场合，都充满了幽默。
It it was hard at the time, but there was certainly humor in almost any given room at any given time.
也许我当时没看出来，但我觉得现在，大概在二十多岁中期，我的视角发生了变化，我能更实时地感受到其中的幽默。
And maybe I wasn't able to see it then, but I think nowadays, I think somewhere in my, you know, maybe mid late twenties, it shifted mid twenties where I could kind of see the humor a little bit more in real time.
不需要十年的 hindsight 才能发现当下发生的事中的幽默。
It didn't take, you know, ten years of perspective or whatever to find the humor in something happening currently.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
你和这段关系的结束，能描述一下你是怎么离开的吗？
The sort of ending of this relationship that you were in, can you describe how how you left it?
事情是怎么结束或停止的？
How things how things ended or stopped?
我甩了他。
I left his ass.
是的。
Yeah.
我做到了。
Did.
当然了。
Hell yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，只要你愿意分享关于这件事的任何内容，我都很好奇想听。
I mean, as much as you wanna share about that, I would be curious to hear.
那时我还在演戏。
I was still acting at the time.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我要去加拿大拍戏，我想是这样。
And I was going away on a shoot to Canada, I wanna say.
我听说是多伦多。
I've heard Toronto.
是的。
Yeah.
我一直在回想，我当时是在纽约拍戏，还是在多伦多有别的安排，但我想应该是多伦多那次。
I was trying to remember if I was doing a shoot in New York or if it was a different thing in Toronto, but I think it was the Toronto one.
我当时就有一种感觉，人生就在我面前展开。
And I just had this feeling of of life is in front of me.
我其实之前已经和他分手过一次，你知道的，而且不止一次。
I had actually broken up with him once before, you know, and there had been multiple.
是他跟我分手的。
He had broken up with me.
他跟我提了分手，又是那种情况。
Had broken up with it was, again, that kind of a thing.
但我在妈妈临终前和他分手了。
But but I had broken up with him as my mom was dying.
天哪，珍妮特。
Jeez, Janette.
这事儿发生在多伦多那次之前。
This was kind of before this Toronto situation.
但当我妈妈临终时，我觉得我的想法是：如果我太依赖他，向他寻求支持，和他一起经历这段时光，我会和他绑定得太深，以至于不知道以后能不能脱身。
But as my mom was dying, because I felt like my my thinking was this, I will bond with him too much by, like, leaning on him and expecting the support from him and going through this experience with him, that's gonna bond me too much that I don't know if I'll get out later.
我不知道自己是否能脱身。
I don't know if I'll be able to.
在你妈妈临终的这段时间，你会和他产生深厚的情感联结，可能就再也无法抽身了，所以最好现在就分开。
You will bond with him during this time when your mom was dying, and you might not be able extricate yourself, so better to get out now.
我觉得自己可能会被困住。
I felt like I may be stuck.
我可能会陷入困境。
I may be trapped.
而且我真的不喜欢任何形式的被困或束缚感。
That and that's I really don't like to feel stuck or trapped in any way.
我喜欢感到自由。
I like to feel free.
你们俩总共交往了多久，算上分分合合？
How long were you two seeing each other all told with the ups and downs?
加起来大概两年多一点，中间有过几次短暂的分手。
It would have been like maybe a little over two years with a couple like short breakups in between.
在那之后的几年里，你还有过其他感情关系，对吧？
In the relationships in the years that followed, I mean, you had other relationships.
你会想到那个男生吗？
Would you would you think about this guy?
有什么东西会提醒你想起他吗？
Would like something clue you?
不会。
No.
完全不会。
Not at all.
你正在摇头。
You're shaking your head.
是的。
Yeah.
完全不是。
Not at all.
不是。
No.
我真的觉得，当我放下一件事时，我已经准备好向前走了。
I literally it was truly, I think by the time I move on from things, I am ready to move on.
我试过所有方法了。
I have tried everything.
我已经用尽了所有选择。
I have exhausted all options.
我对自己的决定很有信心，这适用于我生活中无数的关系和其他事情——一旦我放下，我就绝不会回头。
I am confident in my decision and that goes for literally I mean, I can think of so many things relational and otherwise that once I move on, I'm going I'm not looking back.
我已经在这上面浪费了太多时间。
There's I've wasted enough time on this already.
我很好。
I'm good.
但后来，这种愤怒又重新出现了。
But then this anger resurfaced.
你认为为什么现在它又出现了呢？
Why do you think it resurfaced now?
比如，在写这本书的当下，到底是什么触发了它，或者不是？
Like, what was it or not now in the moment of writing this book.
为什么？
Why?
是什么让它重新浮上心头？
What brought it back up?
我思考过这个问题。
I've thought about that.
我探索过这个问题。
I've explored that.
我认为，对我们女性来说，在三十多岁时，我们终于有了空间，能够以某种方式重新审视与过去自我的关系，以更温和的态度去面对她——我这么说时甚至有点起鸡皮疙瘩，因为这一定是真的：我发现自己能以比以往更多的同情和理解来看待过去的自己。
I think what it is is that in our thirties, we as women, we finally have this space to reframe our relationship with our past self in a way, to meet her with more I'm actually getting a little goosebumps as I'm saying this must be true, where it feels like, oh, I can see myself with more compassion than I had for myself before and more understanding.
你知道，我们二十多岁时通常一片混乱，满脑子都是抱负，努力寻找方向，一切都乱糟糟的。
And, you know, our twenties are such a blur, typically, and we're just it's ambition, and we're trying to find our way, and it's a mess.
感情关系也是如此，是混乱的、有趣的混乱、杂乱的混乱，甚至是丑陋的混乱。
And relationship is just it's it's chaos and it's fun chaos and it's messy chaos and it's ugly chaos.
但到了三十岁左右，我们某种程度上开始安定下来，找到立足点，逐渐稳定。
But then by, you know, by 30, we've kind of started to maybe land somewhere, find our footing, settle in.
这时候，我们有了过去二十多岁时所没有的反思空间。
There's space to reflect in a way that maybe we didn't in our twenties.
我认为，这真正打开了我们与过去自我的关系，而这种联系以前是无法触及的。
And I think it really opens up our relationship to our past self in a way that we didn't have access for previously.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
作为一个三十多岁的女性，我想说：没错。
From one thirty something woman to I'm like, yes.
这真的太对了。
It's it's so true.
但我觉得你所说的，至少在我的经历中，非常准确。
But I think what you're saying is is very spot on at least with my experience.
这是我人生中第一次，在这个年纪，感到有了空间去反思、去处理、去回顾过去的事情。
This is the first time in my life, this age, where I feel like I have that space to reflect, to process, to look back at things.
你知道的？
You know?
而且当你回顾这段关系时，愤怒似乎重新浮现了。
And and and it seems like when you looked back at this relationship, anger was something that resurfaced.
我想知道，在写这本书的过程中，你对这段关系的看法是否有所不同？
I guess I wonder, like, in writing this book, do you look back on that relationship differently?
也就是说，你是否以一种新的方式看待它？
Like, is that do do you see it in a new way?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，写作的诸多超能力之一就是，它确实能带来曾经不存在的释怀。
I think I think it's one of the many, I think, superpowers of writing is it, you know, it does lead to closure where there wasn't closure.
我觉得我当时甚至没有意识到，我对这件事还没有放下，但我确实感受到了那种状态。
And I think I I felt I I didn't even realize that I didn't have closure about this thing, but I think I felt that.
我认为，通过释放愤怒，让它主导一切，反而能接触到一种温柔。
And there's I think there's a softness that's accessible through, I think, letting the rage out, letting it letting it, you know, lead.
现在有一种温柔，甚至可以说，是一种感激之情。
There's now kind of a softness and, dare I say, you know, an appreciation, maybe.
哇。
Wow.
为了这段经历。
For that experience.
是的。
Yeah.
为了这段经历。
For that experience.
当然，这非常复杂。
It's, of course, very complicated.
我有很多遗憾，而且这件事一点都不清晰明了。
And I have a lot of regret, and it's not clean in any way.
但我想，你知道，我可以继续对这件事生气并紧抓不放，或者我可以说：嘿，算了。
But I think, you know, I can either stay mad at it and hold on to that, or I can say, you know what?
我已经放下了这件事。
I've moved on from it.
我从中学到了东西。
I have learned from it.
它塑造了今天的我，影响了我所做的选择，我该如何从中汲取价值呢？
It's informed who I am today and the choices I've made, and how can I take value from it?
我想回到权力这个话题，这是一种寻找力量的方式，因为当时我可能根本没感觉到任何力量。
And I think circling back to power, that's a way of of finding power because maybe I I didn't really feel any at the time.
我们刚才谈到的这种愤怒，
This anger we're speaking
你当时是在生谁的气？
of, who were you angry at?
是他，你自己，还是这个世界？
Him, yourself, the world?
我的意思是，那种愤怒是针对什么的？
Like, what what was that anger directed towards?
针对他和我自己，然后我觉得是我的处境，假设某种形式的这些处境可能引导我走上了那条路，或者促使我最终落在了那条路上。
Him and myself, and then I think my circumstances, assuming that some version of those circumstances maybe, you know, led me down that path or contributed to me landing on that path.
比如，从小在摩门教环境中长大，总是有那么多严格的规定和准则，还有在儿童电视节目中，一直觉得自己必须始终成为某一种人。
Meaning, like, you know, for example, growing up Mormon and having such such strict guidelines and rules constantly in regulations and, you know, being on kids TV and just feeling like I was supposed to be this one thing all the time.
这就像一个压力锅。
It's like a pressure cooker.
这就像一个摇晃过的苏打水罐。
It's like it's like a shaken soda can.
它迟早会爆炸。
It's like it's gonna burst at some point.
还有什么更好的方式来爆发呢？
And what better way to burst?
对于一个讨好型人格、摩门教徒、童星、妈妈的天使来说，还有什么比说‘猜怎么着’更好的爆发方式呢？
What better way for a people pleaser, Mormon, child actor, mommy's angel to burst than going, guess what?
我的第一段感情会是和一个30岁的男人。
My first relationship is gonna be with a 30 year old man.
怎么样，各位，来个迈克·德罗普式的大反转。
Take that everybody like Mike drop.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
我的意思是，我当时不就是这么想的吗？
I mean wasn't I thinking that.
当然，我并不是真的在想：‘我要这么做来报复别人。’
I, of course, wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna do this to get back at people.
但说到底，回头看看，我确实能看到一些这样的痕迹。
But, you know, in in in hindsight, I I just I do see elements of that for sure.
愤怒的另一面是什么？
What's on the other side of anger?
我的意思是，当你释放它之后，剩下的是什么？
Like, once you expel it, what's there?
还剩下什么？
What's left?
其实，我甚至不想释放它。
Well, I I don't even want to expel it.
我喜欢愤怒。
Like, I love anger.
我非常感激愤怒。
I'm so grateful for anger.
我认为它引导我做出了人生中每一个重要的正确决定。
I think it's led me to make every strong good decision in my life that I've made.
正是愤怒让我摆脱了饮食失调。
Anger is what got me to get over an eating disorder.
愤怒让我进入了这段正确的关系，也就是我现在已经维持了九年的这段关系。
Anger is what got me to get into the right relationship, which is the one that I'm and now that I've been in for nine years.
你知道吗？是愤怒让我决定退出演艺圈，说不干了。
You know, anger is what got me to quit acting and say no more.
愤怒给我生命中带来的一切美好事物都起到了作用。
Anger is what's gotten me anything good in my life.
哇。
Wow.
我的意思是，这听起来似乎违背常理。
I mean, it it sounds counterintuitive.
我感觉我在情感上能理解，但请你再帮我深入解释一下。
I feel like I emotionally understand, but but help me understand more.
当你说到愤怒让我找到了这段美好的关系时，愤怒到底是怎么帮你实现的呢？
When you say, like, anger got me into this wonderful relationship, how did anger get you there?
你
What do you
我的意思是，我对以前的感情关系、我在这些关系中的行为、对方的行为以及双方的互动模式都感到厌倦透顶。
mean by I was so sick of previous relationships and my how I behaved in previous relationships, how the other person behaved, what the dynamic was.
于是我心想，我必须付出努力，于是我看了一些自助书籍，浏览了心理治疗师和恋爱建议的YouTube视频，下定决心一定要弄明白。
And I just thought, you know, I've got to put in the work and I would get, you know, self help books and I would look at YouTube videos of therapists and dating advice and just I thought, I'm gonna figure this out.
我实在太生气了。
I'm too fucking mad.
我一定要搞清楚该怎么正确地做，该怎么做得更好。
I'm gonna figure out how to do it right and how to do it better.
我要疗愈那些需要疗愈的部分，这样才不会重复制造这些模式。
I'm gonna heal my the parts that need healing so that I don't re re create these patterns.
这确实很辛苦，但愤怒具有强大的驱动力，能让你克服任何程度的努力。
And it's it's hard work, but anger is so mobilizing that it can get you through I think any amount of of work.
真得感谢愤怒。
Like, thank God for anger.
我觉得，对我来说，悲伤常常让我停滞不前，深陷泥潭；焦虑则让我瘫痪，我连决策都做不了，因为太焦虑了。
I think, you know, sadness can really, for me, keep me stuck and just in the trenches, and anxiety can keep me kind of debilitated, and I'm, oh, I'm not able to make a decision because I'm too anxious.
但天啊，愤怒会让我从该死的椅子上跳起来，做出决定，向前迈进，去完成这些工作。
But my God, anger will get me off the fucking chair and making some decisions and moving forward and doing the work.
这是一个经典的问题，但我认为在这里提出来是合理的。
This is sort of a classic question, but I think it's merited here.
如果你能对18岁的你——18岁的珍妮特——说点什么，你会说什么？
If you could talk to 18 year old you, 18 year old Jeanette, what would you say to her?
跑。
Run.
快跑，宝贝。
Run, baby.
跑快点。
Run fast.
跑得远远的。
Run far.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我真的很想。
I really would.
我真的很想。
I really would.
你知道，我之前提到过对过去的感激之情，我确实有这种感受。
You know, I mentioned earlier kind of an appreciation for the past, and and I and I do feel that.
但我还认为，如果我能对自己说点什么，我会说：跑吧。
But I also think, truly, if I could tell myself anything, I'd say run.
因为当然，你现在有故事可讲，但如果你当初离开了那些情境——许多情境，你也会有其他的故事。
Because sure you've got stories to tell now, but you would have had other stories to tell if you'd had just left those situations, numerous situations.
我认为这是我第一次听到这样的回答——‘跑’，而且反应非常迅速。
I think that's the first time I've heard that response run, and it was immediate.
反应非常迅速。
It was immediate.
很多时候，她都会说，你知道的，对自己温柔一点。
Oftentimes, she was like, and I have you know, just be gentle with yourself.
你就像，赶紧
You're like, get
滚出这个地方。
The hell out of dodge.
是的。
Yeah.
珍妮特，非常感谢你进行这次对话。
Jeanette, thank you so much for this conversation.
谢谢你，安娜。
Thank you, Anna.
这次交流非常丰富。
It's been so rich.
我本来想说，有趣很合适，丰富也很合适，但感觉更像是充实。
I was gonna say fun fun is appropriate, rich is appropriate, but it just feels, fulfilling.
所以谢谢你。
So thank you.
《现代爱情》团队包括艾米·珀尔、戴维斯·兰德、埃莉萨·古铁雷斯、艾米莉·兰、珍·波扬、林恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和萨拉·柯蒂斯。
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.
本集由萨拉·柯蒂斯制作。
This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis.
本集由林恩·利维和珍·波扬剪辑。
It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant.
我们的混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯。
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
本集的原创音乐由罗文·内米斯托、帕特·麦卡斯基尔、黛安·王、卡罗尔·萨布罗、艾莉西亚·贝托普、马里昂·洛扎诺和丹·鲍威尔创作。
Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemistow, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Carol Saburo, Alicia Beitoop, Marion Lozano, and Dan Powell.
丹还为我们创作了主题音乐。
Dan also composed our theme music.
《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑。
The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
米娅·李是《现代爱情》项目的编辑。
Mia Lee is the editor of modern love projects.
如果你想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或一个微小的爱情故事，我们会在节目笔记中提供相关说明。
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes.
我是安娜·马丁。
I'm Anna Martin.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
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