14现代爱情播客-贝尔的负担

确实如此。

It is really

三明治很赞吗？

Was the sandwich banging?

里面放了什么？

What was on it?

嗯，我说不上它特别惊艳，但确实是个不错的三明治。

It was I mean, it was I wouldn't say it was unusually banging, but it was it was a good sandwich.

是烤过的面包，摆在一个漂亮的盘子里，还配了张不错的餐巾。

It was like toasted bread and put it on a nice plate and got a nice napkin.

天啊。

Oh my god.

所以呢，我当时在表演。

So I was, you know, I was performing.

是啊，老兄。

Yes, man.

而且，有一部分我后悔了。

And, you know, part of me regrets it.

我本该说：自己做个三明治吧。

I should have been like, make your own sandwich.

但我就是这么做了。

But I I that's what I did.

你确实这么做了。

You did it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你给他做了个超棒的三明治。

You make him this amazing sandwich.

嗯。

Mhmm.

给他送过去。

Bring it to him.

我开始在家里四处找他，以为他会在某个女孩那儿。

I start walking around the house looking for him, assuming he's gonna be with one of the girls.

嗯。

Yeah.

他不在女孩们那儿。

He's not with the girls.

最后我在地下室找到了他。

And I eventually find him in the basement.

我问他：你在干什么？

And I said, what are you doing?

怎么了？

What's going on?

他说，我在找我们的婚前协议。

And he said, I'm looking for our prenup.

如果你有，你得给我。

If you have it, you have to give it to me.

我说，现在别这样。

And I said, please don't do this now.

请去陪孩子们吧。

Please go be with the girls.

你得回去

You have to go back to the

机场整个

airport a whole

这次访问的机队。

fleet of this visit.

你有

You have

九十分钟后，或者你有的任何时间。

ninety minutes or whatever you have.

嗯。

Yeah.

请回去看看孩子们。

Please go back to see the girls.

他没有。

He didn't.

最终，放弃了。

And eventually, gave up.

他上了楼，从我手里拿走三明治，在门口吃掉了，然后又离开了。

And he came upstairs, took the sandwich from me, ate the sandwich by the door, and then left again.

然后我收到我丈夫发来的短信，说那是一次很棒的会面，后面还加了个感叹号。

And then I got a text from my husband saying, that was a great visit with an exclamation mark.

我感觉自己刚刚经历了一个现实。

I feel like I've just lived one reality.

一个所有父母都害怕、所有孩子都永远铭记的时刻。

A moment that all parents dread, all children remember forever.

但他努力让这件事变得美好。

But he was trying to make it something that was good.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

交易金融市场可能是一项孤独的事业。

Trading the financial markets can be a lonely pursuit.

所以当你想知道如何在平台上开启深色模式，或者如何存入资金时，能与真人交流很有帮助。

So when you want to know how to turn on dark mode in your platform or how to deposit into your account, it's good to speak to a real person.

在 capital.com，我们的团队会说德语、法语、意大利语、西班牙语以及许多其他语言。

At capital.com, our team speak German, French, Italian, Spanish, and many other languages.

随时联系我们，我们很乐意为您解答交易相关的问题。

Get in touch, and we'll be happy to help answer your trading questions.

Capital.com。

Capital.com.

发现一个懂你语言的经纪商。

Discover a broker that speaks your language.

差价合约具有较高风险。

CFDs involve a high level

风险。

of risk.

百分之八十三的零售投资者亏损。

Eighty three percent of retail investors lose money.

我是娜塔莉·基特罗夫。

I'm Natalie Kitroef.

作为《纽约时报》墨西哥城分社社长，我开始调查锡那罗亚贩毒集团和芬太尼生产。

And as the Mexico City bureau chief for The New York Times, I started looking into the Sinaloa cartel and fentanyl production.

我试图理解这种毒品为何导致如此多美国人死亡。

I was trying to understand why this drug was killing so many Americans.

为了做到这一点，我知道我们必须深入这个犯罪组织内部。

And to do that, I knew that we had to get inside of this criminal organization.

我们花了数月的时间，多次前往锡那罗亚，才最终进入这座芬太尼实验室。

It took us months and months of work and multiple trips to Sinaloa to actually get into this fentanyl lab.

报道过程中充满了诸多风险，但人们得以深入了解制造这种毒品的组织内部情况。

There were a lot of risks involved in the reporting, but people got to have a real inside view into the organization that is making this drug.

他们通过照片、视频和采访，亲眼目睹了整个过程。

And they saw the process with photos and videos and interviews.

正是由于我们的订阅者，我们才能完成这样的工作。

This is the kind of work that we're able to do because of our subscribers.

如果您想订阅，请访问 nytimes.com/subscribe。

If you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com/subscribe.

您在书中写道，您成长于一个非常显赫的纽约家庭。

You write in your book, you know, you grew up in a very prominent New York City family.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你的家世，我想这是正确的说法，包括约翰·杰伊。

Your lineage, I guess that's the right word, includes John Jay.

对吗？

Is that correct?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

范德比尔特家族。

The Vanderbilts.

你知道，你祖母是贝比·佩利。

You know, your grandmother's Babe Paley.

嗯。

Mhmm.

一位非常了不起的杂志编辑和社会名媛。

Really incredible magazine editor, socialite.

你从小在纽约长大的这个世界，不是很多人能接触到的世界，嗯。

This world that you grew up in in New York is not a world that a lot of people Mhmm.

有这种机会。

Have access to.

在你成长的过程中，对于婚姻应该是什么样子，有没有感受到某些规范或期望？

Did you feel like there were certain norms or expectations around how marriage what marriage should be in the way you were raised?

在某些方面，是的。

In some ways, yes.

我想，因为我成长于上东区，然后上了私立学校，所以有一种期望，就是你会遇到你的另一半，举办一场盛大的婚礼，然后结婚。

I think because of where I grew up in terms of the Upper East Side and then, you know, going to private schools, there was, you know, an expectation that you would meet your mate, and you would get have a nice wedding, and you would get married.

而且，这中间有一套固定的流程。

And, you know, there was sort of a playbook for that.

但我认为这种期望更多是内在的，因为我已经经历过两次离婚。

But I think it was more internal because I'd been through two divorces.

我父母离异了，然后我母亲又和继父离了婚。

My parents divorced, and then my mother's divorce from my stepfather.

我内心深处渴望着永恒的婚姻和一个完整的家庭。

And I had a year deep yearning for, to be married for eternity and to have an intact family.

我认为这是我一生中最想要的东西。

I think it was the thing I wanted most in life.

我也见过我父亲和继母拥有美满的婚姻，那就是我的目标。

And I had also seen my father and my stepmother who had a wonderful marriage, and that was my goal.

你认为什么样的婚姻才是好婚姻？

What did you think made a good marriage?

我现在更深入地思考过这个问题，但当初结婚、选择丈夫时，我以为自己是在改进这个模式。

Well, I've given more thought to that now, But I actually thought I was improving on the model when I got married, when I chose my husband.

为什么？

Why?

因为我的家族里的男性，我非常爱他们，但他们都有脾气。

Because the men in my family, I love them very much, but they have tempers.

他们脾气不算吓人，更多是跺脚那种。

They they have tempers that are not super scary, but more like stomping your feet.

是的。

Yeah.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

只是跺了跺脚。

Just stomped my foot.

而且总是有很多大喊大叫。

And and there's always a lot of yelling.

从我认识我丈夫的那天起，他就一直非常冷静。

And my husband, from the day I met him, was always very calm.

他不认为大喊大叫是必要的。

He didn't believe in yelling.

我们的家里几乎听不到大喊大叫，除了孩子们的吵闹。

He was, our house was really free from yelling other than children yelling.

所以我以为自己真的改进了，我选择了一个人，他有着我成长过程中从未有过的平静。

And so I thought I had really improved, and I had I would pick someone who was wonderfully calm in that way that I I did not have growing up.

而且稳定，它

And steady, it

听起来是这样。

sounds like.

是的。

Yes.

非常稳定。

Very steady.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗，你提到你小时候是个安静的、用你的话说就是书呆子的孩子。

You know, you mentioned you were a quiet, in your words, of nerdy kid.

在你的书中，你提到你哥哥小时候给你起的一个绰号，叫‘好贝儿’。

In your book, you talk about a nickname you had your brother gave you when you were growing up, Belle the Good.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你是个遵守规则的孩子吗？

So were you like a rule following kid?

你当时是

What was your

没错。

Absolutely.

我非常安静。

I was very quiet.

我特别害羞，甚至有点痛苦。

I was very painfully shy.

所以我是个遵守规则的人。

So I was the rule follower.

我从不违反任何规则，我觉得这有点无聊。

I did not break any rules, and it was it was a little bit boring, I think.

告诉我，你第一次遇见将来成为你丈夫的那个人时是什么情景？

Tell me about the first time you met the man that would become your husband.

你对他最初的印象是什么？

What were your first impressions of him?

我最初的印象是他看起来和我父亲非常相似。

My first impressions were that he was that he, looked very much like had similar look to my father.

他要么很好，要么很坏。

He was either good or bad.

是的。

Yes.

他身高六英尺。

He was six feet tall.

他们俩都是六英尺高，金发，穿着得体，上过寄宿学校。

They were both six feet tall, blonde, preppy, went to boarding school.

但那时的我，并不感兴趣那样的类型。

And at that time in my life, I was not interested in that.

我第一次见到他时，我正在填写奥斯卡选票，我非常喜欢电影。

He also when I the first time I met him, I was filling out an Oscar ballot, and I love movies.

他对任何电影、演员或女演员都一无所知，我当时就想，这人是谁？

And he had no idea about any of the movies or actors or actresses, and I just thought, who is this guy?

这看起来像是个问题。

Like, it seemed like a problem.

所以我觉得这事不会有什么结果。

So I did not think anything would come of it.

然后我们开始一起工作，我被他的头脑和智慧深深吸引了。

And then we started working together, and I was pretty dazzled by his brain, by his intelligence.

他是个出色的律师。

He was an amazing lawyer.

我非常被他的举止吸引。

And I was very drawn to his manner.

他非常有教养，非常善良，对身边的人也很体贴。

He very well mannered, very kind, very kind to people around him.

于是我开始慢慢对他产生了想法。

So I started to, like, started to think about him.

软化？

To soften?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yes.

你能感觉到他对你有兴趣吗？

Could you tell that he was interested in you?

我开始有这种感觉，然后他给我发了一封邮件，问我是否愿意甩掉男朋友，和他约会。

I started to get that sense, and then he sent me an email and said, would you consider ditching your boyfriend and coming dating someone?

我当时在和别人约会。

I was dating someone.

是的。

Yes.

我当时和一个人住在一起。

I was living with someone.

天啊，梅尔。

Oh my gosh, Mel.

我说，我不能答应，我正和别人住在一起。

And I said, I can't know, I'm living with someone I can't.

他说：你愿意甩了你男朋友，八月和我去希腊吗？

It said, would you consider ditching your boyfriend and coming to Greece with me this August?

我至今还留着那封邮件。

I still have it.

一开始，我拒绝了。

And initially, I said no.

但两周后，我其实要和继母、祖母以及表弟一起出门。

And then two weeks later, I was actually going away with my stepmother and my grandmother and my cousin.

当时我加班到很晚，他来到我的办公室。

And he I was working late, and he came into my office.

他说：我只是想来道个别。

And he said, I just wanted to say goodbye.

他关上门，我有点站了起来。

And he shut the door, and I sort of stood up.

他走到我身边，吻了我。

And he came over to me and he kissed me.

哇哦。

Woah.

那是我这辈子最棒的一吻。

And it was by far the best kiss of my life.

有什么东西突然就对上了。

And something just clicked.

我就是知道，他就是我的那个人。

I just knew that this was my person.

哇。

Wow.

我跟男朋友分手了。

I broke up with the boyfriend.

我们的租约本来就快到期了。

Our lease had already was ending anyways.

他们打算

They were going

去不同的纽约人。

to different New Yorker.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Was yes.

租约。

The lease.

所以我们在一起了，简直像烟花绽放。

So we got together, and it was just fireworks.

三个月后我们就订婚了。

And we got engaged three months later.

你所说的‘烟花’是什么意思？因为这个词可以有很多含义。

Tell me what you mean by fireworks because that can mean a lot.

那到底是什么？

What was it?

是妙语连珠的对话吗？

Was it sparky conversation?

是惊人的性生活吗？

Was it amazing sex?

我的意思是，到底是什么？

Like, what was it?

那是难以置信的性生活。

It was unbelievable sex.

那就是那个，你知道的，我完全没料到一个稳重的律师会这样。

That was the that was the, you know, that that I did not expect from the steady lawyer.

我完全没想到会这样。

I did not expect that at all.

但我们彼此之间有很强的肉体吸引力。

But we were very physically attracted to each other.

但他以一种独特的方式带我认识了纽约——虽然我们都在这里长大，但他带我去唐人街，让我第一次尝了小笼包。

But he had this way of introducing me to New York in a way that, you know, I'd grown up we'd both grown up here, but he brought me to Chinatown to give me soup dumplings for the first time.

我和他一起吃了人生中的第一颗牡蛎。

I had my first oyster with him.

他以一种非常绅士的方式主动承担起主导角色。

He just sort of took charge in a very gentlemanly way.

我父亲两年前去世了，我想我当时正处于一种特别容易接受情感依赖的状态，虽然我不确定这是否是主要原因，但我觉得他确实及时出现，既提供了亲密与连接，也让我感受到他是一个非常能干、坚强的人，会照顾我。

And my father had died two years before, and I think I was very primed at that moment to to I don't think that's why, but I think he really swooped in and offered both this intimacy and connection, but also a sense of this is a very capable, strong person who will take care of me.

当然。

Definitely.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你提到他是在纽约长大的。

You mentioned that he grew up in New York.

他算是你成长环境中的一部分吗？比如上东区、私立学校那种？

Was he sort of a part of the the world you've grown up in, the Upper East Side, like private school?

大四岁。

Four years older.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他上的是男校。

And he went to a boys school.

我上的是女校。

I went to a girls school.

但他确实属于那个世界。

But he was part of that world.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他 definitely 属于那个世界，身边有很多非常富有的家庭，朋友也都非常富有。

He was definitely part of that world, and was around a lot of very wealthy families, had very wealthy friends.

但与此同时，他的家庭也经历着巨大的经济压力。

But at the same time, in his own family, was experiencing a lot of financial stress.

当你和他相处时，他有没有向你坦白过这些？

And did he was he open about that with you when you were getting

他有。

He was.

我能感觉到，这是他内心非常柔软、非常痛苦的一部分。

I could tell it was a very tender part of him, very painful part of him.

我能看出，这在他内心成了一种强大的驱动力，促使他在公司里拼命努力，他渴望赚钱，渴望以这种方式取得成功。

I could tell that it was sort of a very motivating thing in him in order to, you know, really motivate him at the firm, and he wanted to make money, and he wanted to be successful in that way.

听起来他渴望安全感，因为他的家庭并不安全。

Secure, it sounds like, because his family wasn't.

什么？

What's that?

因为他家庭不安全，所以他渴望安全感。

Secure because his family wasn't.

为了让自己有安全感。

To make himself secure.

他曾经是个非常叛逆的青少年。

And he had been a very rebellious teenager.

到了大学时，他用了同样的说法——仿佛开关被打开了一样，他决定转学到一所常春藤盟校，他确实这么做了，以最优等成绩毕业，然后进入地区检察官办公室，接着上法学院，最后进入律所，整个人发生了极其剧烈的转变。

And then when he was in college, he used that same phrase, a switch went off, and he decided that he was going to transfer to an Ivy League school, which he did, and graduated summa cum laude, and then went to the DA's office, and then went to law school, and then went to the firm, and he just, like, switched personas very dramatically.

所以你结婚了。

So you get married.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你们搬进了曼哈顿的一套公寓，曼哈顿的一套漂亮公寓。

You move into this apartment in Manhattan, beautiful apartment in Manhattan.

你们有了孩子。

You have kids.

你们有三个孩子。

You have three kids.

你们度过了这些美好的夏天。

You have these gorgeous summers.

我的意思是，你对玛莎葡萄园的描述如此优美。

I mean, you describe them so beautifully on Martha's Vineyard.

你丈夫最终在一家对冲基金工作。

Your husband works for a hedge fund eventually.

你待在家里。

You're staying home.

你在家带孩子。

You're raising the kids.

听起来完美极了。

It sounds perfect.

嗯，显然没有什么是完美的。

Well, nothing's perfect, obviously.

对。

Right.

但我感觉我们非常默契，彼此幸福，并且有意识地共同规划生活，一起做决定。

But I felt like we were very aligned and happy together and intentional about how we wanted to have our lives be and to and made decisions together.

所以我觉得我们是在一起的，你知道的，尽管并不总是完美或轻松，但我感觉我们像其他夫妻一样携手同行。

And so I felt like we were in it, you know, even though it may not have been perfect and easy all the time, I felt like we were in it together the way other couples are.

你觉得自己幸运吗？

Did you feel lucky?

我觉得非常幸运。

I felt very lucky.

我确实觉得，直到现在我依然觉得幸运。

I felt and I I honestly, I still feel lucky.

我感到非常幸运，因为很多时候我都感受到真正的幸福。

I feel very lucky because I felt like there was true happiness a lot of the time.

我有三个了不起的孩子。

I have these three amazing kids.

对我来说，我对他有一种纯粹的爱。

I had, for me, a feeling of absolute love for this person.

我为此感到自豪。

And I feel proud of that.

所以即使它以如此糟糕的方式结束，我依然拥有那份回忆。

So even though it ended in this awful way, I still have that.

我依然对此心怀感激，说实话。

I still I'm still grateful for that, honestly.

我真的相信这一点。

I really believe it.

你说过你们是一起经历的。

You sat you were in it.

是的。

Yeah.

那是你的说法。

That's your word.

你们是一起经历的。

You were in it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我真的相信这一点。

And I I really believe that.

然后我几乎难以 reconcil 这个我们对话开始时的夜晚。

And then I almost it's so hard to reconcile this night that we started our conversation with.

什么都没变。

Nothing changed.

我的意思是，这让你质疑了你过去对一切所相信的一切吗？

I mean, it's like, did that make you question everything you thought you knew about everything you thought you knew, period?

这是一件有趣的事情。

It it's an interesting thing that happens.

人们确实问我，你是否在重新思考你所有的记忆？

And people did ask me, are you rethinking all your memories together?

有人问我，你是不是要烧掉你的结婚相册。

And someone asked me if I was gonna burn my wedding album.

我可能还有其他理由要烧掉我的婚礼相册。

And and I might have other reasons for burning my wedding album.

我不是因为那些照片我不喜欢。

I didn't there's some pictures I don't love.

但不是。

But No.

但并不是因为我感觉需要烧掉我们那段过去的回忆。

But not because I felt like I needed to burn that part of us.

我认为你可以相信那曾经是真的，同时也能相信它在某个时刻发生了变化。

I think that you can believe that was true, and then also believe it changed at some point.

是的。

Yeah.

我也不知道它是什么时候改变的。

A point that I don't know when it changed.

也许直到他离开前两周，它才发生了变化。

It may not have changed until two weeks before he left.

也许在两年前就发生了变化。

It may have changed two years.

也许在五年前就发生了变化。

It may have changed five years.

但我相信，确实有一段时间，这一切都是真实的。

But there was definitely a period of time where that all was true, I believe.

是的。

Yeah.

你丈夫离开之后。

After Your husband left.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你是什么时候开始考虑向核心圈子以外的人透露的？

When did you start to think about telling other people sort of beyond the inner circle?

嗯，一开始他就说，或者发消息说，我们应该说这是和平分手。

Well, right in the beginning, he said or he texted, I think we should say that this is amicable.

如果我们这么说，对你来说更好。

It's better for you if we say that.

考虑到他对我有所了解，我觉得这很有道理，我知道我一向很低调，不太喜欢倾诉或分享。

And I think that made sense knowing what he knew of me, that I tend to be very private, that I'm not a big, like, confessor, sharer.

但从一开始我就知道，我必须说出真相，不是为了贬低他，而是因为我无法编造一个关于我经历的虚假故事并继续活下去。

But I knew right from the beginning that I had to tell the truth about this, not to bash him, but because I couldn't tell an untrue story about what I was experiencing and survive it.

我必须诚实。

I had to be honest.

所以我告诉了别人，无论是朋友还是不太熟的人，我都会说：他离开了我。

So I told people, both friends and people I didn't know that well, I would say, he left me.

我不知道为什么，我正承受着巨大的痛苦。

I have no idea why, and I'm in agony.

这只能是我能说的了。

It was all I could say.

我认为人们不仅对这个故事感到震惊，更对我竟然说出口感到震惊。

And I think people were genuinely shocked, not just by the story, but that I was saying it.

哇。

Wow.

你说出了那些话。

You said those words.

我痛苦不堪。

I am in agony.

我痛苦不堪。

I am in agony.

我的意思是，这太真实了。

I mean, it's so honest.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我明白你说的，你无法撒谎而熬过这一切，但这种诚实，我们通常不会向别人展示我们内心这样真实的部分。

What what made you I mean, I I I hear what you're saying that you couldn't tell a lie and survive this, but that kind of honesty is not something we often that part of ourselves, that honest part of us, that's something we often show people.

是的。

Yes.

而且你当然没有。

What and certainly you didn't.

是什么促使你如此坦诚？

What motivated you to to be so honest?

我觉得

I think

我感觉自己有一道敞开的伤口。

I felt like I had this open wound.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

我当时在流血，我无法解释自己的存在，甚至在对话中无法正常交流，除非我说出我为什么在流血，为什么我无法正常说话。

And and like I was bleeding, and I couldn't kind of explain my presence or even operate in a conversation without saying this is why I'm bleeding, and this is why I can't actually talk normally.

而且我觉得我当时在寻找救命的绳索。

And and I think I was looking for life ropes.

我只是在找某种……我不知道。

I just was, like, looking for some kind of I I don't know.

只是想找家清洁公司。

Just Cleaning company in it.

嗯。

Yeah.

你说你很诚实。

You said that you were honest.

那是你生存的唯一方式。

It was the only way to survive.

我们稍微谈了谈你成长的环境，我猜谨慎是

We talked a bit about sort of, like, the world that you grew up in, and I imagine discretion is

其中的一部分。

a part of that.

没错。

Yep.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想知道，到底是什么促使你打破这种规范？

I guess I really wanna know, like, what compelled you to kinda break that norm?

我觉得对我来说，很早就出现的一个原因是，我母亲和祖母的伴侣都曾有不忠行为。

I think part of it for me that came up very early was that both my mother and my grandmother had infidelity in their relationships.

她们总是非常优雅、非常从容，但这种优雅实际上是在保护那些男人。

And they were always very elegant, always very graceful, but in a way that really protected the men.

我从不感兴趣去贬低我的丈夫，但我感觉我不会以那种优雅的方式去掩盖这一切，把它扫到地毯底下，假装一切正常。

And I was never interested in, you know, kind of bashing my husband, but I I felt like I was not going to clean this up very gracefully and sweep it under the rug and say And keep appearances.

好吧。

Fine.

维持表面的体面。

Keep up appearances.

我认为，从中会获得某种力量。

And that that there was some kind of strength that would come from that.

我经常思考遗产的问题。

I think a lot about legacy.

我有两个女儿和一个儿子，他们同样重要。

I have two daughters and a son, equally important.

我希望通过这种方式，能够改变这一点。

And I'm I'm hoping that in doing it this way, that it might change that.

人们有什么反应？

How did people react?

你还记得人们有哪些具体的反应吗？

Do you remember specific a couple specific reactions people had?

这很有趣，因为在玛莎葡萄园，我们属于一个像网球俱乐部那样的组织。

It was an interesting thing because I in Martha's Vineyard, we belong to a club that's like a tennis club.

是的。

Yeah.

人们从五月和六月开始陆续回来，那里是一个非常已婚的社群。

And and people start coming back in May and June, and it's a very married place.

比如，我只知道有 couple 个人离婚了。

Like, I only know of a couple people who are divorced.

所以你感觉非常孤立。

So you feel very alienated.

你觉得自己像个外人，没错。

You feel like an alien Yeah.

这就是我想说的。

Is what I would say.

从一天到第二天，从感觉自己是群体一员、属于这个社区，突然变成觉得自己像个外人，这很难受，而我肯定不是唯一一个有这种感受的人。

And and that from one day to the next, to go from feeling like you're part of things and you're one of this community to feeling like an alien is is hard, and I'm certainly not alone in that.

我觉得很多离婚的人都会有这种感觉，当你从一边转向另一边时。

I think a lot of divorcing people feel that way when you go from one side to the other.

这是一种令人震惊的体验。

It's a it's a jarring experience.

你有没有觉得人们在背后议论你？

Did you have the sense that people were gossiping about you?

比如，你有没有意识到这一点？

Like, was that something you were aware of?

有。

Yes.

我也会去议论这件事的。

I would have been gossiping about it too.

我不怪他们，实际上我一点都不怪他们。

I don't blame I actually don't blame them for that.

这真是个挺戏剧性的故事，我觉得流言蜚语也可能是一种善意。

It was it's a pretty dramatic story, and I think gossip can be kind too.

你只是会说，她

You just say, is

还好吗？

she okay?

你能分享一个让你感到被孤立的时刻吗？

Is there one maybe moment you can share where you felt alien?

比如，有没有什么具体的事情浮现在你脑海中？

Like, is there a a thing that comes to mind?

有几次，人们谈论我的故事时，却把它描述成我丈夫和他情人之间的爱情故事，而完全忽略了我。

There were a couple of instances where people, spoke about my story where it was refrained that this was actually a love story, but my husband's love story with his mistress.

他离开其实是一件好事，因为他会过得幸福。

And it's actually a good thing that he left because he's going to be happy.

我只是在想，那我的爱情故事呢？我和我丈夫的爱情故事呢？

And I just thought, what about my love story with my husband?

为什么我会变成这场风波中的牺牲品，变成一个配角？

Like, how have I become the, you know, the the collateral in this The side character.

而不是主角。

Than like a a star player.

还有一次，有人直接开始夸我丈夫有多好，这虽然是个善意的评价，但在那种情境下却让我感到非常奇怪。

Or another instance where someone just launched into talking about how wonderful my husband was, which is a nice sentiment, but it felt very strange in that context.

但最让我难以承受的，是我多次听到的一句话：没人清楚谁才应该继续留在这个圈子里。

But the thing that was the hardest, which I heard a few times, was that it wasn't clear who should remain a member of the club.

就连我谈论这件事时，都觉得有点可笑，因为这不过是个小俱乐部，谁在乎呢，算了。

And even as I talk about this, it seems sort of silly because it's like the small club, who cares, whatever.

这是一个私人俱乐部。

It's a private club.

没人应该成为私人俱乐部的成员。

No one should be members of private clubs.

但在那一刻，这让我感到非常震惊。

But but in that moment, it felt so shocking to me.

你为什么不会呢？

Why would you not?

那是什么意思？

What does that mean?

因为这个俱乐部有个传统：如果你离婚了，只有一个人可以继续留在俱乐部，另一个人必须重新申请，而这个过程需要三年。

Because the club has a tradition that if you if you divorce, only one member can remain in the club, and the other member has to reapply, which is a three year process.

所以我一直以为我会是俱乐部的成员。

So I just assumed that I would be a member of the club.

我买了房子。

I had bought my house.

我和孩子们在一起。

I was with the kids.

是的。

Yeah.

他在纽约有外遇，但并不是每个人都清楚谁应该保留会员资格。

He was in New York having an affair, but that wasn't clear to everyone who should remain a member.

让我也说一句。

Well, let me just say too.

我的意思是，我知道，你知道，你有这种感觉。

I mean, I know that, you know, you know this and you feel it.

这当然不只是关于俱乐部。

It's not I mean, it's about the club, certainly.

你的意思是，但这也不仅仅是关于俱乐部本身，而是关于它所代表的意义。

I mean, you're but it also isn't about the it's like about what that represents.

对吧？

Right?

就像是你的人，嗯。

It's like your people Mhmm.

好像随时可能背弃你

Seeming like they could turn their back

就在一瞬间。

on you in a dime.

没错。

Yep.

因为这种情况。

Because of this circumstance.

谁还能留在俱乐部里？

Who was able to stay a part of the club?

告诉我，你当时是

Tell me that you were

我是。

I was.

好吧。

Okay.

我确实留在了俱乐部里，人们对我非常友好和善良。

I was I was able to stay a part of the club, and people have been very welcoming and kind to me.

在你之前就知道我很快乐的时候

Before you you knew that I'm happy

顺便说一下，听到这个我很高兴。

to hear that, by the way.

在你得知真相之前，你听到了这些传言，

Before you knew that and you were hearing these rumors,

那让你感觉如何？

how did that make you feel?

我感到深受伤害。

I felt deeply wounded.

真的深受伤害。

Really deeply wounded.

顺便说一下，我正在谈论这个。

By the way, I'm talking about this.

生活中有太多更糟糕的事情，但我们却偏偏要走这条路。

There are so many worse things that happen in life, but we're like, we're we're going down this road.

所以我认为，这反映了当女性离婚后，失去婚姻地位时的感受，尤其是当她们嫁给一个有钱的男人，拥有那些你本以为会得到的待遇时，却遭遇了意想不到的对待。

So I think it it is reflective of when when women divorce and they lose that status of being married, especially to a man who has money and all those things that you you can be treated in a way you do not expect.

被抛弃。

Discarded.

被抛弃。

Discarded.

我感觉被他抛弃了。

I felt I felt discarded by him.

说得太对了。

That's exactly right.

我感到被他抛弃了，然后我想，我也可能被我的社群抛弃。

I felt discarded by him, and then I thought I could be discarded by my community.

而且，比如说，我很感谢你提到，确实有更糟糕的事情。

And if let's just say, I appreciate you saying, you know, there are worse things.

当然，那是有的。

Of course, there are.

不是每个人都属于某个俱乐部。

Not all of us belong to a club.

一个三年的申请流程。

A three year application process.

我想，我会把名字报上去，但我觉得反正也不会成功。

I'm like, I'll throw my name in the hat, but I don't think it's gonna anyway.

你知道的？

You know?

但问题是，这是你的个人处境。

But it's like, this is your that's your personal context.

但你所描述的这些——痛苦、疏离感、被抛弃的感觉，还有‘我现在对你们来说还有什么价值？’

But the things you're describing, this pain, this alienation, this feeling discarded, this feeling like, what's my value now to you all?

或者我在主动联系。

Or I'm reaching out.

你会回应我吗？

Are you going to reach back out towards me?

我觉得，这些事情跨越了背景和阶级。

Like, these things, I think, cross context and class.

我们就直说吧。

Let's just say it.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

它们确实就是这样。

Like, they just they do.

这是我的希望。

Is my hope.

而这正是我想写这本书的部分原因。

And that's that is part of my desire to write the

书。

book.

而且

And

那段时间有一些非常艰难的时刻，我想人们都聚焦在那些上面。

there were some very difficult moments, and I think people focus on those.

但总的来说，充满了善意。

But by and large, there was such kindness.

人们因为你知道，大家都在谈论这件事。

People because you know people are talking about it.

是的。

Yeah.

从这段经历中，我学到的一件事是，无论发生什么，无论别人经历了什么，说点什么通常都是正确的选择。

And one thing I've learned from the experience is no matter what it is, no matter what has happened to somebody, it usually is the right thing to say something.

是的。

Yeah.

当有人主动伸出援手，无论是通过短信，还是那个坐在我客厅里说‘发生的事是不对的’的男人。

And when someone reaches across, whether by text or or that man who sat in my living room and said, what's happening is not okay.

我记得你书中的这个场景。

I remember this scene from your book.

是的。

Yeah.

你能让我更深入地了解这个场景吗？

Can you bring me into that?

你当时有一些朋友来访。

You had some friends over.

是的。

Yeah.

他们住在海外，是第一批返回岛屿的夫妇之一。

They were they lived overseas, and they were one of the first couples to come back to the island.

我陪着他的妻子散步，她知道所有正在发生的事情。

And I walked with the wife, and she knew everything that was going on.

她说，我丈夫想过来和你谈谈。

And she said, my husband wants to come over and talk to you.

我见过他，因为我们的儿子是朋友，但我并不了解他，也不清楚会有什么样的情况。

And I had met him because our sons were friends, but I didn't know him well, and I didn't know what to expect.

是的。

Yeah.

他们来了，坐在我的客厅里，我们一起喝了茶。

And they came and they sat in my living room, and we had tea.

他放下茶杯，说：我看到你在散步。

And he put down his tea and he said, I see you walking.

我看到你在减肥。

I see you losing weight.

我看到你处于应激状态。

I see that you are in fight or flight.

我想让你知道，在疫情期间离开你的家人是错误的。

And I want you to know that leaving your family during a pandemic is wrong.

他现在对待你的方式是错误的。

How he's treating you now is wrong.

如果有人告诉你这不是错误的，不要听他们的。

And if anyone tells you it isn't, don't listen to them.

他说，如果他试图回来，你应该把大门上锁。

And he said, if he tries to come back here, you should padlock the gate.

哇。

Wow.

这非常明确，毫不含糊。

And it was so clear and so unequivocal.

我觉得，在那一刻，有一个男人如此明确地表达，尤其具有意义。

And it felt, I think, particularly meaningful in that moment to have a man be clear about it.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

你应该把大门锁上。

You should padlock the gate.

嗯。

Yeah.

你当时同意他的观点吗？

Did you agree with him in that moment?

嗯，那是我第一次认真思考这个问题，因为他在告诉我设立界限的重要性。

Well, it was kind of the first time I had thought about that because it's it's telling me to have a boundary.

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为，作为女性，我们常常被教导说，做一个好前伴侣就该没有界限，你应该做三明治。

And I think as women, we're often taught that to be a good ex, there should be no boundary and that you you should make the sandwich.

做三明治，你应该为了孩子的利益欢迎对方回来。

Sandwich, and you should welcome the person back for the good of the children.

从那一刻起，我确实设立了界限，这些界限对我帮助很大。

And from that moment, actually, I have set boundaries, and those boundaries have been very helpful to me.

继续和我们在一起。

Stay with us.

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At capital.com, we want to make your trading experience as painless as possible.

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差价合约涉及

CFDs involve a

高度风险。

high level of risk.

83%的零售投资者亏损。

Eighty three percent of retail investors lose money.

《纽约时报》应用里有很多你可能没注意到的内容。

The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen.

顶部的标签页包含了所有不同的板块。

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

我可以立即跳转到某个内容

I can immediately navigate to something

正好符合我当下的心情。

that matches what I'm feeling.

我总是去看游戏板块。

I go to games always.

玩小游戏。

Doing the mini.

玩填字游戏。

Doing the Wordle.

我很喜欢它让我接触到这么多内容。

I loved how much content it exposed me to.

我从未想过会向新闻应用寻求这些内容。

Things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.

这个应用必不可少。

This app is essential.

《纽约时报》应用。

The New York Times app.

所有时间，全部汇集在一起。

All of the times, all in one place.

立即前往 nytimes.com/app 下载。

Download it now at nytimes.com/app.

你正在玛莎葡萄园。

You're on Martha's Vineyard.

最终，你回到了纽约。

Eventually, you returned to New York.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有离婚程序

And divorce proceedings

立即开始。

start immediately.

是的。

Yes.

当你告诉我他离开时，你丈夫说，你可以留下房子。

When you told me about him leaving, your husband said, you can take the house.

你可以带走孩子。

You can have the kids.

我一样都不要。

I don't want any of it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以那是他提出的抚养权安排之一吗？

So was that the custody arrangement that he suggested as one?

我实际上提交了我的律师，并提出了一份五五分的监护协议，因为那是我小时候希望得到的安排。

I actually served up my lawyer and I served up a fifty fifty custody agreement because that's what I would have wanted as a kid.

我小时候的安排很七十年代，每两周才能见一次父亲。

I had a very seventies arrangement where I only saw my father every other weekend.

但我想要五五分。

But I wanted fifty fifty.

我希望孩子们能按照我们决定的方式来回往返，平分节假日和假期。

I wanted him the kids to go back and forth in whatever way we decided, split holidays and vacations.

他把协议退了回来，用黑线划掉了他所有的时间。

He sent it back black lined with all of his time taken out.

他不希望孩子们来回奔波。

He he did not want them to have to go back and forth.

他认为他们已经是完全成熟的成年人了。

He thought that they were fully formed human beings.

他们当时多大？

How old were they?

他们分别是12岁、15岁和18岁，所以并不是小孩子。

They were 12, 15, and 18, so they were not tiny.

但我12岁的孩子真的很想在12岁时，

But my 12 year old really wanted a 12 years old,

我的意思是。

I mean.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

在他家。

At his house.

但他并没有这样做。

And he did not do that.

当我收到那份被删掉所有时间安排的监护协议时，这真的让我震惊。

So that really shocked me when I got that custody agreement back with all of the time taken out.

这让我和我的孩子们都感到非常痛苦。

And that was that was very painful and painful for my kids.

我无法想象。

I can't imagine.

我真的很难过。

I'm really sorry.

我的意思是，看到那些被涂黑的部分一定很痛苦，正如你所说，真的非常痛苦。

I mean, just seeing that blacked out must have been I mean, as you say, really painful.

到目前为止，他一直是个称职的父亲吗？

Had he been an attentive father up to this point?

他一直是个非常善良、温柔的父亲。

He had been a very kind and sweet father.

他带女儿们去看每一场音乐剧。

He had been, he took the girls to every musical.

每个周末他都带她们去吃小笼包。

He took them to soup dumplings every weekend.

他带我们的儿子去早上5点的冰球训练。

He took our son to 5AM hockey practice.

他从不大喊大叫，正如我所说。

He was not a yeller, as I've said.

他对他们非常温柔和体贴。

He was very loving and sweet with them.

但他从不陪他们睡觉、洗澡或吃晚饭。

But he he did not do bedtime, bath, dinner with them.

他不想做这些。

He did not want to.

他一直在工作。

He was working.

所以我觉得，我不会说他非常亲力亲为，但他是个非常可爱的父亲。

So I think we I I wouldn't say he was, like, very hands on, but he was a very lovely father.

所以这并不是一次巨大的破裂？

So this wasn't a massive rupture?

我的意思是，这其实是

I mean, this was

这是一个巨大的变化，出乎我的意料。

This was a big change and not what I would have expected.

我认为在他心里，他认为自己在做对他们有益的事，让他们不必这样来回奔波。

I I believe in his mind, he thought he was doing something that was good for them, that they wouldn't have to do this back and forth.

但我和孩子们谈起这件事时，说他只是没能建立起一个家。

But the way I talk about it with the kids is he just was has not been able to create a home.