问我关于我死去的儿子

这些时刻简直让人难以置信，所有失去孩子的父母都得背负着这些。

Like, these are those unbelievable moments that I have to carry and that all bereaved parents have to carry.

别人根本没法想象，也完全理解不了。

Like, people just can't even imagine and they can't understand.

所以他们体会不到我们经历过什么。

So they don't they don't appreciate what we have walked through.

这些时刻太过强烈，我们一辈子都忘不掉。

They are so intense, and we never forget them.

它们从根本上改变了你内心的结构。

And they just shift you seismically inside.

我和那天早上醒来的自己，已经不是同一个人了。

Like, I'm not the same person I was on that same morning that I woke up.

因为我亲眼目睹了那些事，因为我不得不去做那些事，我变成了另一个人。

I am a different human because of what I saw and because of what I had to do.

是的。

Yeah.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

你好。

Hi.

我是《纽约时报》的摄影指导，梅根·洛伦。

I'm Megan Lorum, the director of photography at The New York Times.

一张照片能做很多事情。

A photograph can do a lot of different things.

它能让我们彼此相连。

It can connect us.

它能带我们去到从未去过的地方。

It can bring us to places we've never been before.

它能用一种普世的视觉语言讲述故事。

It can capture a story in a universal visual language.

但这些照片有一个共同点，它们并不是凭空出现的。

But one thing that all these photographs have in common is that, you know, they don't just come out of the ether.

我们花大量时间预判新闻事件，与全球最顶尖的摄影师合作。

We spend a lot of time anticipating news stories, working with the best photographers across the globe.

这些摄影师都经过多年磨炼，精通技术，成为记录我们世界的视觉叙事专家。

These are photographers who have spent years mastering their technical craft, developing their skills as visual chroniclers of our world.

比如，他们得考取潜水证，学习水下拍摄，来记录气候变化；或者进行高强度的心肺训练，才能跟奥运选手一起在雪道上拍摄。

You know, getting certified as a scuba diver and learning how to shoot underwater to document climate change or tremendous cardiovascular training in order to ski on the slopes next to Olympic athletes.

这一切都需要投入大量的时间、心思和资源。

This is an effort that takes tons of time and consideration and resources.

所有这些之所以能实现，全靠《纽约时报》的订户支持。

All of this is possible only because of New York Times subscribers.

如果你还没订阅，现在就可以去 nytimes.com/subscribe 加入我们。

If you're not a subscriber yet, you can become one at nytimes.com/subscribe.

你跟凯说了，然后呢？

You tell Kai, and then what?

你自己不也刚说过吗。

I mean, you you said it yourself.

这就像是

It's like

我们该怎么做呢？

What do we do?

路线图在哪里？

Where is the road map

针对这个？

for this?

根本没有说明书。

There's no manual.

没有。

No.

你该怎么决定下一步该做什么？

How do you figure out what to do next?

全靠直觉。

Pure instinct.

我们有个朋友真的打了个电话，帮我们订了第二天的机票，因为当时我们吓坏了。

We had a friend actually call and get us flights out for the next day because we we panicked.

我们心想，必须马上回家。

We were like, we need to get home immediately.

我们觉得蒙大拿那边还会出别的事。

We thought something else was gonna happen in Montana.

我真的以为，如果我们不走，还会有人死。

I re we I really thought someone else was gonna die if we stayed.

天哪。

Wow.

我们去过那儿，真的待过。

We've been we've been there.

我们亲眼见过。

We've seen it.

为什么其他人就不会被大地直接吞掉呢？

Why wouldn't someone else just, like, you know, get swallowed up whole by the earth?

我不得不打电话给波士顿当地的殡仪馆，告诉他们威廉的下落，好让他们安排把他运回家，因为我们必须把他送回去。

I I I had to call the I had to call our local Boston area, mortuary to tell them where William was so that they could figure out how to get him home because you have we had to ship him home.

但首先得给他做防腐处理。

But he had to be embalmed first.

不防腐的话，飞机是不让运的。

You can't fly unless you've been embalmed.

所以我们只好先把威廉的遗体留在蒙大拿。

So we actually had to leave William's body in Montana.

唉。

Ugh.

我得把威廉的所有东西都收拾进他的包里。

Like, I had to pack all of William's things into his bag.

我在想，这些真得带上吗？

I'm like, do I need these?

我该把这些都带走吗？

Am I supposed to take these?

这些就放这儿吗？

Do I leave these here?

我完全没想到会这样。

I had I had no idea.

所以我干脆全带上了，后来我们总算到了机场。

So I just I brought them, and then we you know, eventually, we get to the airport.

我哥哥来接我们，但他开的是我们的车，车里还留着一个儿童安全座椅，就是那种增高座。

My brother picked us up, but he had our car and, like, there was, you know, one extra car seat still like, a booster seat in the car.

飞机上少了一个我们家的人。

There was one less person on the plane with us.

那种感觉真的特别不真实。

It was just it was surreal.

震惊的情绪会持续很久，你知道的。

And we were, you know, shock lasts for quite a long time.

头几个星期，我们都是懵懵懂懂地走过来的。

And, we just walked through that whole first couple of weeks in in shock.

苏西，我知道在这种时候说‘谢谢’可能不太合适，毕竟你带我重温了那一天，还有之后的那些日子，但我还是想说，谢谢你。

Susie, I mean, thank you sounds like the maybe wrong thing to say after bringing me into that day and and the days that followed, but thank you.

我都不知道该怎么回应，真的说不出话来。

I mean, it I'm failing to even respond because I don't know how.

在哀伤中，我们常说，有人默默陪着你，就够了。

In grief, we we talk about just being witnessed, and that's enough.

你只是陪着我，见证了我所有的悲伤。

You just witnessed my grief.

你根本不需要说些什么、做些什么来让情况变好，你只是陪着我，听我说，感受我的情绪，这就足够了。

And there's nothing you can say or do to make it any better, but just bearing witness to the story and to my emotions.

你当时那么急着要离开山里，赶回家去。

You know, you had such an urgency to get away from the mountain and back home.

但我能想象，回到家后，满屋子都是威廉的东西。

But then I imagine being back home with William's stuff.

他的房间，还在那里。

His room is there.

他的床还在那儿。

His bed is there.

我的意思是，那地方大概还留着他的气味，一定是一打开门，整个味道就扑面而来。

I mean, it probably smells like I just that must have been it must have exploded open a whole

哦。

Oh.

另一面。

Different side.

是的。

Yeah.

我想搬走。

I wanted to move.

我当时就觉得，我待不下去了。

I was like, I can't I can't stay here.

于是我开始在城里看别的房子。

So I started looking at other real estate in town.

我当时就想，我真不想待在这儿。

I was like, I don't want to be here.

晚饭怎么样？

What was dinner like?

哦，糟透了。

Oh, it was awful.

那顿饭，我们围了一张大圆桌。

It was and so, we we had this big round table.

本来是给六个人准备的。

It was for six people.

我们四个坐在一起，虽然有点偏，但完全坐得下。

And the four of us, you know, we were sort of lopsided, but we fit fine.

桌上总是多出不少空位。

There was always, like, extra space.

那顿饭是

It was

好吧。

like, okay.

后来只剩下我们三个人的时候，那场面简直太难熬了。

And then that when there was three of us, it was horrific.

我们几乎感觉不到彼此的存在，就是特别孤单。

We barely felt it, and it was just so lonely.

我们就这么一群难过的人，围着这张桌子坐着。

And we were just a a bunch of sad people sitting around this table.

所以我的悲伤是共享的，但同时，我也在各自的方式里感到深深的悲伤。

And so I'm Sad in a in a shared way, but also, of course, sad in such individual ways.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

你觉得这种悲痛把你们三个人连在了一起吗？

You feel like this grief was connecting the three of you?

当然，我猜是这样的，但有时候也不是。

I mean, of course, I I bet it was yes and also not at times.

但话说回来，那感觉是怎样的？

But, yeah, what did that feel like?

它让你们更亲近了吗？

Did it pull you closer?

还是反而让你们疏远了？

Did it kinda push you apart?

我觉得两者都有吧。

I think a little bit of both.

我当时就想，为什么凯不哭呢？

Because I was like, well, why is Kai not crying?

我动不动就哭，根本停不下来。

And I'm crying all the time at the drop of anything.

我散步的时候也会哭。

I'm crying, you know, taking a walk.

洗澡的时候也在哭。

I'm crying in the shower.

我去学校接他的时候都会哭。

I'm crying just picking up him at school.

是的。

Yeah.

尼克不会哭。

Nick is not crying.

他把自己关起来了，话也变少了。

He is, like, going internal, you know, and he's quiet.

虽然我们都住在一起，为同一个人哀悼，但每个人的方式都不一样，感觉特别孤单。

So even though we were all living together and grieving the same person, we were all doing it so differently, and so it felt isolating.

不过我们换了一张新桌子。

But we we got a new table.

换了一张不一样的桌子。

We got a different table.

对。

Yes.

还有没有其他类似的情况？

Were there other things like that?

一些实际的、甚至看似微小的日常小事，你后来意识到，就是这些改变让事情没那么难熬了。

Practical, maybe even seemingly small sort of everyday things that you realized, oh, this is this is the change I can make that is making this feel more manageable.

我很好奇，为什么大家都会这么敏锐地去换一辆

I'm I'm curious that people are so smart to get another

我

I

换了一辆车，因为威廉当初帮我挑的这辆车。

got a different car because William had helped me pick out the car.

只要一开车，我就特别难受。

And I just when I would drive it, I I hated being in it.

对。

Mhmm.

我们其实很快就把他房间改了。

We changed his room actually really soon.

有很多父母都会保留孩子的房间，对他们来说这样挺合适的。

There's so many parents who save their room and and that that works for them.

我不希望他的上下铺还在这个房间里，所以我们把它改成了一个冥想角。

I did not want his bunk bed to be in this room, so we turned it into like a meditation den.

他的东西都还在，但这已经不是他小时候的房间了，这样让我和我们大家都感觉好一些。

All of his things are still here, but it's it's not his childhood room, and that that feels better for me and us.

对。

Yeah.

我们不得不做这些大大小小的调整，只为让三个人都感觉更舒服些。

We just we had to make these little and big changes so that it just felt better, the three of us.

因为一下子从四个孩子，两个活泼好动的小家伙，变成三个人，变化实在太大了。

Because it was it was a huge shift to go from four and and two rambunctious children in an instant go to three.

家里突然变得特别安静。

It was so quiet in the house.

再也没人打闹了。

There was no more wrestling.

你懂的。

You know?

再也没人搞障碍训练了。

There was no more obstacle courses that anybody was doing.

家里安静得不得了。

It was so quiet.

你提到朋友，还有生活中其他人的关心。

You mentioned friends, obviously, reaching out people in in your life.

你能说说吗？有没有哪个人做的某件事特别帮到你？

Can you tell me, like, was there some can you remember something someone did that was really helpful?

有的。

Yes.

跟我说说那件事吧。

Tell me about that.

我们学校当时搞了一场关于创伤的辅导活动。

So our school our school had, like, a trauma session.

我们都会死，你知道吗？威廉是在二月假期的星期二去世的，孩子们得等一整周才能回学校。

We die you know, William died during February vacation on a Tuesday, and the kids had to wait all week to go back.

所以在大家返校前的那个星期天，学校举办了一场说明会，告诉大家威廉·肖到底发生了什么事。

So on, like, the Sunday before everybody went back, the school held an information session to find out what happened to William Shaw.

是的。

Yeah.

我儿子凯的小朋友阿库，还有他家人，也去了那场说明会。

And my son, Kai's little friend, Aku, and his family went.

那时候，我身边一些亲近的朋友，虽然一直没上门，也没发消息过来。

And I had had at that point, I had had close friends who weren't stopping over without announcing themselves or sending me a text.

他们是怕打扰到我。

Like, they didn't wanna intrude.

但阿库和他家人去了说明会后，二话不说就直接上门了，没打电话，也没提前说，还把儿子推到我面前，说：‘你们可能需要阿库。’

But Aku and his family went to this session and immediately showed up on my doorstep without a call, without an ask, and they sort of put their son, like, kinda pushed him forward, and, like, we thought you might need Akou.

然后他们就走了。

And then they left.

天哪。

Wow.

那是我这辈子见过最体贴的事。

It was the most thoughtful thing anyone has ever Tell

你为什么这么说？

me why.

你跟我说说，为什么你觉得这特别体贴？我其实挺意外的。

Tell me why that was thoughtful to you because I'm actually I'm I'm kind of surprised by that.

这跟我想的不一样，人们通常觉得你这时候需要的是保持距离。

That that contravenes what I would assume, you know, people think you want distance.

你再跟我说说，为什么这件事对你来说这么暖心？

Tell me why that was so thoughtful for you.

因为他们直接来了，根本没让我开口提要求。

Because they just showed up without asking me to do the job.

对吧？

Right?

他们没问，你需要什么？

They didn't say, what do you need?

这就变成我得主动告诉别人我需要什么了。

Which makes it my job to tell people what I need.

他们只是心里想着，知道做什么会特别好？

They just thought to themselves, you know what would be really great?

去支持凯。

To support Kai.

所以他们直接过来了，把儿子送过来玩一会儿，也没留下来。

And so they just showed up, and and they dropped their son off for an extended play date, and they didn't stay either.

这点特别关键，因为我们跟他们其实没那么熟。

That was that was a key point because we didn't know them that well.

他们的意思是，你需要他待多久就待多久。

They were like, take our son for as long as

你尽管用。

you need him.

太让人感动了。

Was stunning.

天啊，这确实不是我第一反应，我的第一反应会是什么？

God, that is it's not what I would immediately I mean, the impulse, of course, is is what?

送花吗？

To send flowers?

对，就是这样。

It's like Yeah.

我的意思是，花确实很漂亮。

I mean, and flowers are beautiful.

我不是想死。

I'm not trying to die.

但不行，不能送花。

But that No.

花会枯萎的。

Flowers die.

哇。

Wow.

好吧。

Okay.

不错。

Good

有道理。

point.

然后你还得收拾它们。

And then you have to clean them up.

哇。

Wow.

对。

Yep.

别送了，好吧。

Don't send Okay.

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，这简直太直接了

I mean, it's almost too on

就在鼻子上。

the nose.

这就像是你正经历着什么，然后有人突然说：听着，我们不会这么做——但你所说的内容真的太重要了。

So it's like having and then being like, listen, we're not gonna it's so important what you're saying.

别问对方需要什么。

Don't ask what do you need.

我的意思是，回想当时刚发生完那件事，那个女人问你：你住哪儿？

I mean, I'm thinking back to in the immediate aftermath, that woman saying, what's your address?

然后你心里想：这都什么时候了，还问这个？

And you being like, what the heck?

你已经够忙的了。

Like, you're dealing with enough.

是的。

Mhmm.

这太感人了，我真没想到你会遇到这样的事。

That's so moving, and I would not expect that to be the thing that you

这绝对是其中最棒的。

Was the best the best thing by far.

虽然还有很多其他很棒的事，但这件事是最突出的。

There was a lot of other great things, but that was

最棒的。

the best.

我能问你一下相反的情况吗？有没有人对你冷淡，让你感到意外或者受伤？

Can I ask you, like, the flip side of that, which is, like, was anyone distant with you in a way that Yeah?

让你感到惊讶或者难过？

Surprised you or hurt you?

你能跟我讲讲吗？

Can you tell me can you tell me about that?

是的。

Yeah.

确实有些人躲着我们，根本不说话。

I mean, there were people who just avoided us, just didn't didn't say anything.

后来我听他们说，他们根本不知道该说什么。

And and I've heard from them since, like, oh, we didn't know what to say.

沉默反而更伤人。

And silence hurts more.

有一个人特别让我难受。

There was one particular person.

她也是个滑雪妈妈，居然跑来告诉我她觉得我儿子是怎么死的。

They were she was a a ski mom as well, and she she decided to tell me how she thought my son had died.

这特别伤人，因为她根本不在场。

And that that was so hurtful because she she wasn't there.

这种事真的让人受不了。

And That does.

这简直太过界了。

That feels like a big overstep.

确实越界了。

It was a huge overstep.

而且她还说了一件事，她说她觉得我儿子当时特别累。

And and she also one of the things that she said, she's she said, I think he was really tired.

我花了好几个月，真的，一直在想，是不是我让他太累了，才让他……

And I spent, I'm not kidding you, months going over whether or not I had made my son too tired by letting him Oh

天哪，苏西。

my gosh, Susie.

是啊。

And Yeah.

我没问我丈夫，因为我不想让他知道这些事。

You know, I didn't ask my husband because I wasn't gonna let him on on that information.

最后我问了那天和他一起滑雪的朋友。

I finally asked my friends who had been skiing with him that day.

他们说，他特别开心。

They were like, he was elated.

他高兴得不得了。

He was over the moon.

但我一直在那儿反复琢磨，她跟我说这些，其实只是为了自保。

But I stewed on that for so long, and she only told me that to protect herself.

对吧？

Right?

她只是想确保这样的事别发生在她家，毕竟他们是滑雪爱好者，她绝不会像我们这样做。

She wanted to make sure it would never happen to her family because they're skiers, and she would never make the choices that we made.

你懂的。

You know?

所以我就回了句，是啊。

So it was like Yeah.

这根本就是个自私的表态，完全没必要，还特别伤人。

It was this really self serving comment that was so unnecessary and really hurtful.

你提到你丈夫尼克性格比较内敛，而你则恰恰相反，会跟人倾诉、哭诉，情绪表达得很外放。

You talked about how your husband, Nick, was quite internal with his And it sounds like you were talking about this and crying and emoting in in ways that were quite external.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Absolutely.

这两种不同的哀悼方式，对你们的婚姻关系造成了什么影响？

What did those different types of grief do to your relationship, your your marriage?

刚开始确实让关系紧张了一阵子，但时间不长，因为我们很快就开始寻求帮助。

It it strained it for a little bit, but not too long because we were really focused on getting support.

我们很早就开始看家庭心理医生，也早早参加了支持小组。

So we started seeing a family psychiatrist really early on, and we went to a support group really early on.

渐渐地，我们明白了，每个人哀悼的方式都不一样。

And so we started to learn that people grieve differently.

一个人表现出来，另一个人没表现，并不意味着谁的悲伤更浅，或者谁爱得少。

And just because one shows it and the other doesn't doesn't mean anything about their grief or their their love for the person.

花了一些时间和学习，我们才学会尊重彼此，给对方各自需要的空间。

So it took a little bit of time and education, but we learned to respect one another and give each other the space that each of us needed.

幸运的是，我们俩很少同时陷入特别强烈的悲伤时刻。

And it was helpful that very rarely would either of us have, like, giant grief moments at the same time.

差不多是轮流来，也不是故意的，但这样我们就能在对方悲伤时陪在身边。

Like, we would take turns almost, and not meaning to, but so we could show up for the other one in their grief.

这场失去有没有占据你们关系的全部空间？

Did the loss sort of take up all the space in your relationship?

是啊，差不多吧。

Guess, like, the Yeah.

还有空间容纳别的事情吗？

Was there room for anything else?

有一阵子完全没有。

Not for a while.

当然。

Sure.

有一阵子真的特别难熬。

It was it was it was real tricky for a while.

我们那时候很难有亲密感。

Like, we it was really hard to be intimate.

我其实一直很好奇这一点。

I was curious about that, actually.

我总觉得威廉就在我们中间。

It was I I felt William between us all the time.

无时无刻都感觉他在。

All all the time.

我想想看。

And I think let's see.

从二月到六月，差不多过了五六个月，我们才在威廉去世后第一次发生关系，事后我哭得稀里哗啦。

February, March, April, May, June it was, like, five or six months before we ended up having sex for the first time after William died, and I bawled my eyes out afterwards.

哦，苏西。

Oh, Susie.

我很难过，我当时就想，我真不想有这种感觉，因为我不该再有这种感觉了。

I was so sad, and I I was, like, I I don't wanna feel this good because I'm I'm I should never feel this good ever again.

你知道，那真的挺多的。

You know, like, it was a lot of

不同的方面，你愿意说多少就说多少吧，毕竟这么大的悲痛就是这样的，没错。

different I'm I'm it's as much as you wanna share, I mean, this is this is the reality of a grief this big Yeah.

它会渗透到

Is that it it seeps into

生活的方方面面，你的婚姻。

every Every aspect aspect of of life, your marriage.

是的。

Yeah.

你的身体呢？

Of of your body?

是的。

Yeah.

关于快乐呢？

Of your of pleasure?

你能再跟我说说吗？愿意讲多少都行，但刚才你说话时哽咽了，是内疚吗？

Can you tell me, like, again, as much as you wanna share, but it's like the the the weeping in that response was like, was it guilt?

对。

Was Yeah.

我觉得我不配感到这么好，因为我的孩子去世了，我为他的死感到深深的羞愧。

It I I didn't deserve I, a, didn't deserve to feel this good because my child had died, and I I felt so much shame from his death.

作为父母，我们最重要的责任就是保护孩子活着，而我失败了。

Like, our one job as parents is to keep our kids alive, and I failed.

所以，我背负着巨大的羞愧。

So there was so much shame.

我也再也不想在任何事上感到快乐了。

I also I didn't ever wanna feel good ever again in anything.

我以前是花样滑冰运动员，但我再也不想回去滑冰了，因为那给我带来了太多快乐。

I used to be a figure skater, and I didn't wanna go back to figure skating because I got so much joy out of that.

所以我心想，我再也不能碰它了，我不配拥有这么大的快乐。

And so I was like, I I never I could never do it again because I shouldn't be allowed to have that much joy.

是的。

Yeah.

你就是会觉得，自己应该一直被困在痛苦里。

You just you feel like you should be just imprisoned in your pain.

那是什么时候开始……

When did that

转变的？

switch?

对。

Mhmm.

你是什么时候第一次笑出来、露出笑容、吃了一顿美味的饭、滑了一次冰，或者……我不知道，体验了高潮，然后突然觉得，好吧？

When did you laugh or smile or eat something good or figure skate or, I don't know, have an orgasm and and feel and feel like, okay.

花了好几年时间。

It took a few years.

真的花了好几年，才真正感受到。

It really did to truly feel it.

不只是性高潮，比如我出门旅行，或者和家人共度特别时刻时，心里总会闪过一丝念头：真希望威廉也在。

And there's always just not with orgasms, but, like, when when I am, like, on a trip and or sharing a a special moment with, say, my family, I there is a twinge of, oh, I wish William was here.

他不在，真的让人很难受。

It really sucks that he's not here.

但花了好几年，我才慢慢解开那些悲伤、羞耻和内疚，那确实是关键的一环。

But it did take a few years to start to unravel that grief and shame and guilt, and that was a big piece of it.

想要重新感受快乐，很重要的一点就是告诉自己：我不再为这件事感到羞愧了。

A big piece of trying to feel joy and happiness again is to just say, like, you know, I am not I'm not gonna feel ashamed about this anymore.

我值得拥有这一切。

And I deserve it.

现在呢，我就会说：没错。

And, yeah, now I'm like, yes.

我也可以拥有特别棒的一天。

I can be I can have an amazing day.

我还能和安娜·马丁一起上播客。

I can be on a podcast with Anna Martin.

你懂的。

You know?

天哪。

Oh my god.

对吧？

Right?

真的特别开心。

So much joy.

这里面充满了快乐。

There's so much joy in that.

但明天我会难过，因为威廉没能像他侄子们那样拿到驾照。

And then tomorrow, I'm gonna be sad because William's not getting his license like like his neph my nephews are.

对吧？

Right?

所以我学会了同时接纳这两件事。

So it's I've learned to hold both of those things.

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

我是保罗·特尼奥。

I'm Paul Tenorio.

我为《The Athletic》报道足球。

I cover soccer for The Athletic.

我是艾米·劳伦斯。

And I'm Amy Lawrence.

我为《The Athletic》报道足球。

I cover football for The Athletic.

不管你怎么叫它，这项运动里最重要的赛事正在上演，而《The Athletic》的世界杯报道为你提供追踪赛事所需的一切。

Whatever you call it, the biggest competition in the sport is happening right now, and The Athletics World Cup coverage has everything you need to follow the tournament.

这次有48个国家参赛，从小小的库拉索岛到五次夺冠的巴西队，全都参与其中。

There's 48 countries taking part from the tiny island of Curacao to the five time champions Brazil.

就算你分不清越位和非越位，只要你想了解球队、比赛，还有场内场外的那些故事，我们都能满足你。

Even if you don't know your offside from your onside, if you're eager to know more about the teams, the matches, all the stories on and off the pitch, we've got you sorted.

你可能是那种每个周末都早起，一到心爱的球队进球就吵醒邻居的人。

Maybe you're the kind of person who's already up early every weekend, waking the neighbors when your favorite club scores.

我们会给你提供比你认识的任何人都更深入、更全面的信息。

We'll make sure you get equipped with more information, more insight than anyone you know.

我们派出了70多位资深记者，亲临现场，报道每场比赛的每一个细节。

We've got more than 70 obsessive reporters on the ground covering the ins and outs from every game.

我差点忘了说最重要的部分，艾米。

I almost forgot to mention the best part, Amy.

通过我们的App，你可以免费观看The Athletic的世界杯全程报道。

Free access to The Athletics World Cup coverage in our app.

下载The Athletic应用，我们那里见。

Download The Athletic app and see you there.

你根本就没想过吧？

Was it even a thought to you?

比如，我们再要一个孩子？

Like, maybe we will have another kid.

就那么一闪念，想着 maybe 再要两个，但我老公直接说：绝对不行。

Very briefly, it was like, oh, maybe two and then my husband was just like, absolutely not.

我真不想再经历一次了。

I I don't wanna go back in Yeah.

再怀个孩子，照顾个婴儿，重来一遍，我受不了。

Like, and have have a baby and an infant and do that again.

我们早就把东西都收好了。

We had, you know, packed everything up.

既然已经经历过那么大的创伤，我实在不想再添乱，说什么‘要不再要一个’。

We had given everything And so because we had already gone through such trauma, I was like, I'm not gonna add to it by being like, well, let's have another kid.

我可不想去碰那根弦。

Like, I'm not gonna rock that boat.

当然。

Sure.

后来经过一系列事情，有一天尼克走进厨房，阳光正从窗户照进来。

And then through a series of of different events, one day, Nick walked into the kitchen, and I the light was shining through the window.

那是秋天。

It was in the fall.

威廉二月去世的，他突然问我，你还想再要个孩子吗？

William had died in February, and he just said to me, do you wanna have another baby?

我跟他说，天哪。

And I said to him, oh my god.

是的，我想。

Yes, I do.

我本来已经把这念头彻底放下了。

And and it was like, I had put it down Yeah.

埋得那么深，他一提起来，就好像有什么东西突然从我心底炸了出来。

So far deep in me that, like, when he said it was like, it, like, burst out at me.

我当时就说，是的，我想。

I'm like, yes, I do.

你几乎都没意识到，自己有多渴望。

And you almost you almost couldn't acknowledge you didn't know how much you.

我们没法知道你丈夫心里怎么想，但他有没有跟你说过，这件事对他意味着什么？

Didn't I you're, you know, we we're not in your husband's head, but what has he told you shifted for him?

他只是看着我，看到我有多难过。

He just saw me and how sad I was.

他不是觉得孩子能解决一切，而是觉得这能让我们家更完整。

And not that the baby would fix it, but it would just add to our family.

我真的很享受做威廉妈妈的时光。

And I had loved being William's mom.

我只是觉得，他希望我能再体验一次那种感觉。

And I I I I just think he wanted me to have that again.

对。

Yeah.

你还有更多的爱可以付出。

You had more love to give.

那时候我们就像在……

It was like in We

你们平时去哪里玩？

where do you play?

是的。

Yeah.

我常常觉得，博迪承载了威廉去世后我们剩下的全部爱，那时候我们不知道该怎么处理这份感情。

Well, I I I often think of Bodhi as all the love that we had, left after William died, and we didn't know what to do with it.

于是我们就把这份爱给了博迪。

And so we put it in Bodhi.

博迪就是那个我们生下的孩子。

And Bodhi is the baby that

你们的孩子就是我们生下的那个。

you Beauty is the baby that we had.

他现在

He's now

你有了。

You have.

他快六岁了，真让人难以置信。

He's almost six, which is unbelievable.

你有没有那么一刻，觉得自己给了他太多压力？

Was there some part of you that felt nervous that you were putting a lot of pressure?

你说威廉去世后，你们所有的爱都倾注在了Bodie身上，这当然可以理解。

Or I mean, you say that all this love that you had after William died, you put into Bodie, which, of course.

但我也在想，你们当时怀上Bodie的时候，他是不是某种程度上承载了整个家庭的期望？

But then I'm also like, does that mean that Bodie, you know, this this baby at the time that you were having, like, was he sort of carrying the family?

这个问题

Does that question

说得通吗？

make sense?

这完全说得通。

It makes so much sense.

我猜很多家庭，不管有没有失去孩子，都会这样。

And I I would suspect that that happens in a lot of families with or without child loss.

哦。

Oh,

是的。

yeah.

说得好。

Good point.

但没有。

But, no.

我们当时并没有那种感觉。

It just didn't that wasn't a feeling that we had.

我们只是想为家里添一个孩子，不是为了替代，也不是为了别的，就是单纯地迎接小Bodhi。

It was this separate thing we were doing to add to our family, not to replace, not to be anything but the little Bodhi.

大概一年前，他跟我这么说，因为他长得真像威廉。

And maybe about a year ago, he actually said to me because he he looks just like William.

他有一样的卷发。

He has the same curly hair.

连举止都一模一样。

He has the same mannerisms.

所以我们常跟他说：你跟你哥哥长得真像。

And so and we tell him, you look just like your brother.

他却对我说：你这么爱我，是因为我像威廉吧。

And he said to me, well, you love me so much because I'm like William.

我当时一听，天啊，不是这样的。

And I was like, do oh, no.

我们是不是做错了什么？

What did we did something wrong.

我赶紧说：Bodie，不是这样的。

And I was like, Bodie, oh, no.

不是。

No.

不是，宝贝。

No, baby.

我们爱你，因为你就是Bodie。

We love you because you're Bodie.

我们爱William，因为他就是William。

And we love William because he was William.

我们爱Kai，因为他就是Kai。

And we love Kai because he's Kai.

话说回来，Bodie现在六岁了。

I mean, now Bodie is six.

他对William能懂多少呢？

What does he know about William?

你好像一直在提William。

Like, it seems like you're talking about William all the time.

那当然了。

What does yeah.

他能知道些什么呢？

What does he know?

关于威廉，他该知道的全都知道了，只是没亲眼见过他本人罢了。

He absolutely everything that he could possibly know about William, except, like, his flesh.

对吧？

Right?

我们给他讲了太多故事，从他还没学会说话的时候就开始了，给他看照片和视频，带他去威廉去过的地方。

We tell so many stories, and we started early on before he could even talk probably and showing him pictures and videos, going to places that William has been.

他穿威廉的衣服，不是那种奇怪的方式。

He wears William's clothes, like, not in not in a weird way.

是的。

Yeah.

但那些都是别人传下来的衣服。

But, like, oh, they're hand me downs.

我们会跟你说，凯以前穿这些，现在轮到你穿了。

We would have given you know, Kai wore them, and now you wear them.

这对你来说有情感上的困扰吗？

Was that emotionally complicated for you at all?

是的。

Yeah.

确实有。

It was.

但每次他穿着这些衣服下楼，我都会忍不住笑，因为他自己挑衣服，而那些衣服都收在抽屉里。

But it also brings me a smile when he comes down to because he picks out his own clothes, but they're in the drawers.

当他穿着威廉的衣服下楼时，我就想，你看，多像啊。

And when he comes down in, like, a William outfit, I'm like, look at that.

你懂的。

You know?

就是，挺让人感慨的。

Like, it's just Yeah.

这既是终点，也是起点。

It's both it's that both end.

天哪。

Like, oh god.

我真的很想念威廉。

I I miss William so much.

你看啊。

And look at that.

他的部分依然活在我的孩子们身上。

Like, part of him is still just alive in my kids.

你能告诉我，当你有威廉和凯的时候，你是个什么样的父母？

Can you tell me, when you had William and Kai, what kind of parent were you?

我肯定是个特别焦虑的父母。

I I was an anxious parent for sure.

对。

Mhmm.

我什么都想做到完美。

I wanted everything to be just so.

我希望家里看起来特别好。

I wanted the house to look really great.

我想让孩子们参加各种各样的活动，尽量多样化。

I wanted the kids to be involved in all the different activities, be very diverse.

你知道的，我们得去听故事会。

You know, we had to go to story hour.

还得带孩子去参加那些小鼓圈活动。

We had to go to the muse the little drum circles with the kids.

我努力确保他们吃的都是有机食品。

I tried to make sure they always ate organic foods.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

就像家长教师协会之类的。

Like PTAs Yeah.

各种事情。

Things.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Mhmm.

听起来你是个特别讲究的人。

It sounds like you were very type a.

作为家长，你是这么想的吗？

Does that as a as a parent?

我确实是。

I was.

你当时担心些什么？

What were you worried about?

什么都担心。

Everything.

我觉得我特别希望别人都喜欢我。

I think I wanted I wanted everybody to like me.

我希望别人都觉得我是个特别称职的妈妈。

I wanted everybody to think I was a really good mom.

我希望看起来我们家一切都井井有条。

I wanted to seem like we had it all together.

但说实话，很多方面我们确实做到了。

And in a lot of ways, we did.

我们当时过着非常美好的生活。

We had a beautiful life.

奇怪的是，我觉得现在的生活反而更真实，真的更真实了。

And oddly, I think our life now is so much more honest, so much more honest.

但那时候我并不明白。

But I didn't know then.

所以我当时很爱那样的生活，现在我也珍惜现在的生活。

And so I I loved our life then, and I value our life now.

我们聊过你当时是个特别安静的妈妈，是吧。

We talked about how you were a quite type a mom Yeah.

在威廉还在的时候，还有威廉和凯伊一起的时候。

With William and when it was William and Kai.

那现在有了科迪，情况怎么样？

What about now with Cody

还有凯伊？

and Kai?

你现在的状态怎么样？

What's your vibe?

我越少管事，越好。

Less I do, the better.

这正是我想问的。

This is what I was wondering.

就是那样。

How that yeah.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

说说看具体情况。

Tell me about that.

我刚明白过来，其实什么都不重要，只有健康和安全才算数。

I just realized, like, none of it is important except for health and safety.

你懂的。

You know?

我的意思是，要是有人打翻了东西，我们收拾一下就行。

Like, I mean, if somebody spills something, oh, we'll clean it up.

我们才不打算参加所有活动呢。

Oh, we're not gonna sign up for all the activities.

我们就待在家里，或者去公园玩玩。

We're just gonna hang out at home or go to the playground.

对。

Yeah.

你穿什么我都无所谓。

I don't care what you wear.

你不用非得打扮成什么样。

You don't have to look a certain way.

你想怎么来就怎么来。

Show up how you want.

以前我担心的那些事儿，现在全都不算事儿了。

Like, all of the things that I worried about before are gone.

是因为最坏的情况已经发生了吗？

Is it because the worst thing happens?

你让我想想，我也能理解另一种情况：有家长失去孩子后，反而把孩子看得更紧了。

So it's like like, bring me into that because there is also a world I could see where a parent loses a child and tightens their grip.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我不想那样做。

I didn't wanna do that.

我当时不希望凯，尤其是那时候，活在保护罩里。

I didn't want Kai, especially at the time, to live in a bubble.

我不希望他害怕生活。

I didn't want him to fear life.

他值得拥有一个美好的童年。

He deserves a beautiful childhood.

对。

Mhmm.

威廉在世的时候，我还觉得蹦床太危险了，不能买。

Like, when William was alive, I was like, we can't get a trampoline.

那实在太不安全了。

That's so so unsafe.

他去世两个月后，我就说：嘿，蹦床可以买了。

Like, two months after he died, I'm like, oh, the trampoline's coming.

等等，我说。

Like, with Wait.

是的。

Yeah.

我当时就是觉得

It was just like

但蹦床确实有危险。

But trampolines can be dangerous.

我真的觉得

I really do

我想说的是，我并不是想

want I'm not I'm not trying to

变成Twilight。

be Twi.

我是真的想弄明白。

I, like, really wanna understand.

我就在想，你当时是不是觉得，担心这些有什么意义呢？

I'm like, so you were just like, why what's the point in worrying?

或者说，

Or, like,

那一点点担心算得了什么？

what what's a little bit?

父母本来就会一直操心，这我们都知道。

Because parents worry all the time, and we can Yeah.

我们总爱往最坏的方向想，还花那么多时间这么想。

We can project the worst, and we spend all this time doing it.

要是不操心，这些时间用来做点别的该多好？

What could we do with that time instead of worrying?

我为孩子们操了那么多心，可威廉还是走了。

I worried so much about my kids, and William still died.

对吧？

Right?

操心也没能保护他，也没能保护我，躲过他的离世。

The worrying didn't protect him or me from his death.

所以，不如放下一些无谓的担心，把精力用在更有意义的事上。

So it would be so much more useful if I let go of some of that worry and did better things with it.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

我从来没听人这么说过。

I've never heard someone put it that way.

说实话，我被你这份坦诚深深打动了。

I mean, I'm just I'm struck by how honest that is.

你那么担心，可他还是走了。

You worried and he still died.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我突然想到，如果把担忧的滤镜从为人父母的每一段经历中拿掉，你就能真正地活在当下。

And it also it just strikes me, like, when the film of worry is removed from all the experiences of parenting, it's like you are able to be so present Yeah.

这正是……

Which is

完全对。

Absolutely.

这正是目标所在。

Which is the goal.

没错。

Yes.

你更关注他们本身，而不是担忧和那些可能发生的事。

You're more you're more focused on them versus the worry and what could happen.

你。

You

你成了一个没人想成为的专家。

have become an expert in something no one wants to be an expert in.

正如你所说，你经历了所有父母最害怕的噩梦。

As you said, you've lived every parent's worst nightmare.

在你经历哀伤的过程中，你开始在社交媒体上、面对面地分享你学到的东西。

And, you know, as you've moved through your grieving process, you started sharing what you've learned on social media, in person.

是的。

Yes.

你之前是公开谈论这些事的吗？

Can I like, and you were talking about this stuff out loud?

你为什么觉得这么做很重要？

Why is it important to you to do that?

这对我来说真的特别重要。

Oh, it's so important to me.

有几个原因。

There's a few reasons.

其中一个是因为没多少人愿意谈这个话题。

One of them is because not enough people are talking about it.

我收到了很多其他失去孩子的父母发来的消息，大多是妈妈，也有爸爸，他们都说：‘这正是我的感受，但我一直不知道该怎么说，也没地方说。’

And I've just gotten so many messages from so many other bereaved parents, mostly moms, but dads too, who are just like, that's exactly how I feel, but I didn't know how to say it or I didn't have a space to say it.

而且，这其实是为了创造一个空间，让大家能坦然说出那些让人害怕、但很多人又不想听的真实想法。

And, yeah, it it just it's it's a it's about creating this place where it's okay to say out loud the really scary things that so many people, again, don't wanna hear.

我注意到，你用的语言非常直接。

And it strikes me too, the language you use is extremely direct.