卡丽·库恩谈真正值得被爱意味着什么

美与赢得网球大满贯、赋能社区或在南美洲的荒野中追踪美洲豹有何关联？大家好，我是伊莎贝拉·罗西里尼，欢迎回到《这不是一档美容播客》第二季。在这里，我将揭示美如何贯穿我们生活的每个角落。请在您喜爱的播客平台上收听由欧莱雅集团呈现的《这不是一档美容播客》。

What does beauty have to do with winning a tennis grand slam or empowering communities or tracking jaguars through the wild heart of South America? Hi there. I'm Isabella Rossellini, and I'm back with season two of this is not a beauty podcast where I uncover stories that get to the heart of how beauty is woven through every facet of our lives. Listen to this is not a beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group on your favorite podcast platform.

此刻相爱

Love now

永远相爱。陷入

and at all. Fall in

最后的爱恋。但比任何事物都强烈。为了爱。我爱你胜过一切。爱。

love last love. But stronger than anything. For the love Love. And I love you more than anything. Love.

但愿依然相爱。

Wish still love.

爱。来自

Love. From

《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。这里是《现代爱情》。每周我们为您带来关于爱情、欲望、失去以及人际关系中所有混乱的故事。本周，我与演员凯莉·库恩对话。最近凯莉·库恩似乎无处不在。

the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is modern love. Every week, we bring you stories about love, lust, loss, all the messiness of human relationships. This week, I'm talking to actor Carrie Coon. Carrie Coon has kinda been everywhere lately.

她参演了《白莲花度假村》新一季，这让我非常期待。虽然她也在《镀金时代》里，但我一直想和她聊聊她主演的电影《他的三个女儿》。这部电影讲述三姐妹重聚照顾临终父亲的故事。凯莉·库恩饰演的凯蒂角色特别值得探讨——她自视为某种‘刽子手’，包揽着照料所有人的重任。

She's in the new season of the White Lotus, which I'm very excited about. She's on the Gilded Age, but I've been wanting to talk to her about a movie she's in called his three daughters. It's about three sisters who've all reunited to take care of their dad, who's on his deathbed. And Carrie Coon's character is really worth talking about. Her name is Katie, and she sees herself as kind of a murderer, taking care of everything and everyone.

她的台词充满愤怒而挫败的独白。

She talks in these fiery, frustrated monologues.

关键在于，我希望我们能让他轻松些。不要在任何事上小题大做。有分歧就冷静沟通，别争吵或做任何可能刺激他的事。用我们成年人的方式处理。说实话，我不认为这有什么可争执的。

The trick is, I guess, the thing I'm saying is that I hope we can make this easy on him. Just not make a thing out of anything. If we disagree, we talk it out without getting heated or yelling or anything that's going to upset him. We handle it like adults, like the age we are. I really don't see what there is to disagree about anyway.

凯蒂始终处于暴怒状态：电话里怒吼着让医生签放弃抢救协议，每次临终护理员来访都要盘问计划细节，还不断指责娜塔莎·雷昂饰演的继妹自私幼稚。

Katie is constantly on a tirade. On the phone, angrily trying to get a DNR signed by a doctor. Every time a home hospice worker stops by, she's grilling him on the plan. And she relentlessly criticizes her stepsister, played by Natasha Lyonne, who she thinks is selfish and immature.

我理解你不想进他房间。我守到凌晨四点，克里斯汀基本就没离开过。你的援手会很有帮助。

Here's the thing. I get it that you don't wanna go into his room. Sure. I was there till 4AM, and Christine has basically been in there since. The hope would be appreciated.

但听着，每个人面对死亡的方式不同，我不会指手画脚。这是你和他之间的事，关乎你如何看待自己的人生选择。

But look. Everyone deals with death their own way, and I'm not gonna tell you what to do. That's between you and him and however you think you should run your life.

库恩的角色对妹妹有着固执的成见，甚至不愿了解其真实想法，导致姐妹隔阂日益加深。这部电影精准呈现了现实中的亲情关系——探讨我们在家人面前的行为退化，以及固有认知如何束缚彼此。今天凯莉·库恩将与我讨论：家庭叙事如何阻碍我们真正认识并关爱彼此。她还将朗读一篇《现代爱情》文章，讲述女性如何挣脱母亲强加的标签寻找真我。

Kuhn's character has such a rigid idea of who her sister is that she can't be bothered to find out what she actually thinks or feels, and it's driving a bigger and bigger wedge between them. This whole movie feels so true to real life sibling and family relationships. It explores the ways we regress around our families and how our ideas about each other can limit our relationships. So today, Carrie Coon joins me to talk about the stories families tell themselves and how those stories can make it harder to get to know and love each other. She reads a modern love essay by a woman who had to escape her mother's ideas of her in order to find herself.

凯莉·库恩，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

Carrie Kuhn, welcome to modern love.

谢谢，感谢邀请我。

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

凯莉，我被你的电影《他的三个女儿》深深吸引。不仅因为我自己也是三姐妹之一——虽然这让故事对我个人而言格外有共鸣。嗯。电影中的姐妹们都处于一个非常悲伤而痛苦的境地。

Carrie, I was so drawn in by your film, his three daughters. And not just because I am one of three daughters, although that made it Interesting. Very personally relevant. Mhmm. The sisters in this film are in a very sad and painful situation.

她们的父亲即将离世，三姐妹聚在一起照顾他最后的时光。但她们对待彼此的方式有时令人不忍直视，关系紧张到极点。嗯。你能感觉到她们多年来在家庭角色中的固化，多年来相互贴标签的积习。

Their father is dying, and they've come together to to care for him in his final days. But they also treat each other in ways that can be so hard to watch. Their relationships are incredibly fraught. Mhmm. And you can sense that they're entrenched in years of being in these roles in their family, years of putting each other in boxes.

我还想说，这三位姐妹似乎都深感被其他姐妹误解。你觉得这种解读准确吗？

I will also say that it really seems like all three of the sisters feel deeply misunderstood by the others. Would you say that's true?

是的。因为她们仍然用二十年前的眼光看待彼此。你可以争论这些年有多少成长，但她们早已不是当年的自己。每个家庭成员对往事的叙述都会不同——比如我有四个兄弟姐妹，

Yes. Because they still see each other as they saw each other, you know, twenty years before. And you you can debate how much growth has happened in the interim, but they're not the same. And their story of what happened is different in any family. You know, I have four siblings.

对家庭任何事件的描述，你会得到五种不同版本。有时这些叙述会部分重合，但有时却天差地别。是否存在

Our perspectives on any event in our family, you will get five different interpretations of what was happening. And and, you know, they sometimes they match up a little bit, but sometimes they're wildly. Is there

有没有一件具体的事让你觉得，我不记得爸爸做过那样的事？比如，有没有什么事是你们至今还在争论的？

a specific thing coming to mind where it's like, I do not remember dad doing that? Like, is there one that you guys debate to this day?

哦，有很多这样的小事，比如我记得我爸爸会消失很长时间，他是在躲着我们。哦，而我们不知道他去了哪里。我想他在我们池塘边有个秘密藏身处。

Oh, there are lots of little deed like, I remember, my dad disappearing for long periods of time, and he was hiding from us. Oh. And we're not knowing where where he was. I think he had a secret space by our pond where he would hide.

哦，你是说他真的在躲藏？好吧。

Oh, you mean quite literally hiding? Okay.

是的，不，我是说真的在躲藏。我妈妈上夜班，所以她有很好的借口。她整天睡觉，所以她是光明正大地躲着。

Yeah. No. I mean, actually hiding. My mom worked nights, so she had a good excuse. She just slept all day, so she hid very openly.

爸爸只能偷偷摸摸地挤出点时间。但你知道，所以我们家有个传说，关于这种事发生的频率或他去了哪里。实际上他是个很棒的爸爸，承担了很多责任。不过我和我妹妹会开玩笑。

Dad had to sort of steal his minutes away. But, you know, so we there's, like, family lore about how often that happened or how where he was. And he was a great dad. Actually, he took a lot of responsibility. But, you know, my sister, we joke.

她总爱说，记得家庭游戏之夜吗？而我们都会说，真的从来没有过，从来没有什么家庭游戏之夜。

She has this this trope about, like, remember family game night? And we're all like, literally, there was no ever. There was never a family game night.

而你坚持认为从来没有家庭游戏之夜？

And you and you maintain there was no family game night?

不，绝对不是。

No. Definitely not.

好吧。我是说，你将电影中的这段经历与自己的家庭联系起来。我确实在想，我们在片中姐妹和他三个女儿之间看到的情形，是否在某种程度上不可避免地发生在所有家庭中。比如，我们可能非常确信自己了解家人，以至于不再费心去思考是否忽略了他们某些本质的特质。嗯。

Okay. I mean, you're you're connecting this experience of the film to your own family. And I I do wonder if what we're seeing between the sisters and and his three daughters kind of inevitably happens to some degree in all families. Like, we can be very certain. We know our family members very well that we don't put the effort into figuring out if we're missing something sort of fundamental about who they are Mhmm.

在当下这个时刻，你有共鸣吗？

In this moment. Does that resonate with you?

完全有。因为通过拍摄这部电影并回顾自己的人生，加上我现在身为人母——我有一个六岁和一个三岁的孩子——我深刻意识到要竭力避免将自己的想法投射到孩子身上。这是我时刻警醒的事。

Absolutely. Because what I've come to understand, not only in making this movie and reflecting back on my own life, but because I'm I'm now a mom. I have a six year old and a three year old. I work so hard not to project onto my children. It's it's it's something I I consciously am aware of.

你说的'投射观点'具体指什么？

What what do you mean by that projecting perspective?

就是尽量避免预设他们的身份、未来或想法。为此我投入了大量精力，但对兄弟姐妹却完全不会这样。没有。所以我发现，尽管我努力成为完美母亲，追随育儿专家，试图避免重蹈覆辙...

That I try not to presume who they are or what they're going to be or what they're thinking. So I put so much energy into it. I do not do that at all for my siblings. No. And so what I've gotten like, I'm I'm I'm trying to be such a good mom, and I'm I follow parenting experts, and I'm trying not to make the same mistakes.

但这恰恰是我无法做到的根本问题。明白吗？这就是我们不愿重新看清眼前之人的本性

And that is one fundamental thing that I'm incapable of doing. You know? It's it's our inability to be willing to see, again, the person who's in front

我们真实的自我，而非他人对我们的一套固有看法。我在想，比如成长过程中，你是否曾感觉亲近的人误解了你？

of us rather than a set of ideas we have about that person. I wonder, like, growing up, do you remember ever feeling like someone close to you had the wrong idea about you?

我的情况是，我对自己根本没有清晰认知。这篇文章引起我共鸣的部分在于，在家庭中当我们扮演某个角色、试图获得安全感与爱时，我们开始通过索取爱的方式来定义爱的含义。对我而言，出于某种意识或潜意识的原因，我开始理解到实用性的重要性——如果我让自己对周围的人有用，他们就不得不爱我。我必须为这些人提供某种价值，这很功利。

I mean, here's what's I didn't have any idea about me. And some of the things that resonate in this essay have to do with in a family when we're fulfilling a role and when we are trying to be safe and loved, we start to define what love is through how we try to get it. And so for me, what I started to understand, for whatever reason, conscious, unconscious, that that there was something about utility, that if I could make myself useful to the people around me, then they would have to love me. I have to be providing some, you know, use to these people. It's utilitarian.

因此作为一个女性，我成为人类行为的观察者，不断试图在这些关系中保持安全和有用。我们变成了变形者，对吧？我们开始把自己塑造成眼前人需要的任何模样，并且对此驾轻就熟。我知道很多女性都会对这种行为产生共鸣。

And so for me, as a woman, I was an observer of human behavior, and I was trying to keep myself, again, safe and useful in these spaces. We become shape shifters. Right? We start to turn ourselves into whatever the thing the person in front of us needs, and we become very good at it. This is I know a lot of women are gonna recognize that behavior.

当然，随之而来的必然结果是：你被过度碎片化，完全无法触及自己真正的需求。于是你变成了他人需求和情绪的混合体，不断消化这些，离你真正渴望的东西越来越远。当你在所有关系中都猜测对方需求却无人这样对你时——因为你骨子里不相信有人会满足你的需求，导致你根本不会表达——这一切最终会转化为怨恨，一种你同样无法表达、持续发酵的怨恨，直到爆发、破碎、分崩离析，或者你期待如此，因为这是你唯一知道的解脱方式。

And what happens, of course, inevitably is that you're so hypercompartmentalized, there's absolutely no way that you are in touch with what you actually need. And so you become this amalgam of everyone else's needs and feelings, and you're metabolizing that all the time, and you get so far from the thing that you want. And, of course, when you're spending all your relationships guessing at that, but no one's doing it for you because, actually, you're constitutionally incapable of expressing your needs because you don't believe anyone's actually going to fulfill them for you, then all that does is it turns into a resentment, a simmering resentment that, again, you are fundamentally incapable of communicating, and then it just explodes and break and falls apart, or you hope it does because that's the only way you know how to get out of anything.

你在谈论我们给自己讲述的关于'值得怎样的爱'、'如何表达爱'这些塑造我们的故事。你选择朗读的这篇现代爱情文章作者，从小被母亲灌输'冷漠缺爱'的叙事，长期内化这个标签并相信母亲对她的判断。能说说为什么被这篇文章吸引吗？或者在朗读前有什么想说的？

You know, you're you're talking about how it it's the stories we tell ourselves about the the love we deserve, how we express love that are are so formative. The author of the modern love essay you chose to read grew up being told a story by her mom, being told that she was cold and unloving. And for a long time, the author internalizes that and believes her mom must be right about who she is. Can you tell me a little bit about what drew you to this essay or anything you wanna say to sort of set it up before you we hear you read?

嗯。引起我共鸣的是我多年来的自我认知——认为自己是有缺陷的，实际上无法以社会期待的方式去爱。现在我才明白，真正的问题在于我毫无自我价值感，骨子里觉得自己不配被爱。但事实上，我只是处于完全解离和割裂的状态。

Mhmm. What resonated with me was an idea that I had about myself for a lot of years about how I was damaged, and I was that I was actually incapable of of loving in in the way that society expected me to. And now I understand that what I actually believe is that I I didn't have any self worth. I was fundamentally unworthy of love. But, actually, what was going on is that I was just completely disassociated and compartmentalized.

你不可能从一个比这更分裂的状态去爱，或相信自己值得被爱，因为那里根本不存在完整的自我。

And you cannot love and believe yourself worthy of love from a place that's not in more integrated than that because there's no per there's no self there, you know, to to kind of

锚定你。

Anchor you.

锚定你。那里什么都没有。而且我觉得，你知道，随着年龄增长我越来越像佛教徒了。我就觉得，那里确实空无一物，但这和那种空无又不同。你明白吗？

Anchor you. There's nothing there. And I think, you know, I've sort of I I get more Buddhist as I age. I'm like, there is nothing there, but this is different than that. You know?

关于感知这件事需要做个区分。但真正的情况是，我根本不相信——首先，我的需求值得被满足。事实上，我甚至说不清自己需要什么。我内心那个微弱的声音根本不存在，我无法告诉你我的需求。我只是他人需求的混合体。

There's a distinction to be made about, you know, perception. But really what was happening is that I I so didn't believe that, a, my needs were worthy of being met. In fact, I couldn't even tell you what they were. I hadn't really that still small voice inside of me did not exist, and I couldn't tell you what I needed. I was just an amalgam of other people's needs.

广告之后，凯莉将朗读由哈丽特·布朗撰写的现代爱情散文《未被标签混淆的家庭》。

After the break, Carrie reads the modern love essay, a family label ungarbled by Harriet Brown.

Audible浪漫系列能满足你的所有期待，无论你渴望甜蜜、搞笑、奇幻还是火热激情。聆听莉莉·楚和阿里·哈泽尔伍德等畅销作家的现代浪漫喜剧，沉浸于莎拉·J·玛斯和丽贝卡·亚罗斯打造的奇幻爱情世界，或穿越到《布里奇顿》《外乡人》等摄政时代经典。更有让你欲罢不能的深情大胆之作。立即登录audible.com/modernlove开启30天免费试用，邂逅你的第一段美妙爱情故事。

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好的，凯莉，你准备好了就开始吧。

All right, Carrie, whenever you're ready, take it away.

好的。《未被家庭标签扭曲的哈丽特·布朗》。当我第一次怀孕时，最大的恐惧不是能否爱这个孩子，而是我是否具备爱任何人的能力。我有充分理由怀疑自己做不到。伊丽莎白·斯通在《黑羊与表亲之吻》一书中描述，家庭讲述的故事如何给每个人分配角色，而这些角色如何成为自我实现的预言。

Okay. A Family Label Ungarbled by Harriet Brown. When I was pregnant for the first time, my biggest fear was not whether I would love the baby, but whether I could, whether I was capable of loving another human being at all. I had good reason to think I wasn't. In her book Black Sheep and Kissing Cousins, Elizabeth Stone describes how the stories families tell assign roles to each person and how those roles can become self fulfilling prophecies.

在我的家庭里，我是那个没有爱的能力的人。虽然没人直接这么说，但这是我从小接收到的信息。母亲常拿出一张我和妹妹的黑白老照片，那时我们大约两岁和五岁。她指着照片中我皱眉的表情，评论我肩膀如何远离妹妹，然后说：你一直都是这样。也许父母说这些话本无恶意，但我却深信不疑。

In my family, I was the one incapable of love. I don't know that anyone ever used such a phrase, but that's the message I got as a young girl. My mother used to bring out a black and white snapshot snapshot of my younger sister and me side by side when we were maybe two and five. She would point to the scowl on my face, comment on how my shoulders leaned away from my sisters and say, you were always like that. Maybe all parents say things like this to their children, meaning to describe rather than to harm, but I came to believe it.

我在自我认知中长大：一个不懂感恩、自私冷漠的人，不仅对崇拜我的妹妹情感吝啬，对母亲也是如此。我相信自己存在本质缺陷，缺少他人拥有的关键特质。感觉自己像《绿野仙踪》的铁皮人，只是没有发条能替代我缺失的心脏。让我确信这点的不仅是言语——

I grew up thinking of myself as ungracious, selfish, and cold, emotionally withholding not just to the younger sister who adored me, but to my mother as well. I believed there was something wrong with me. I was missing some crucial element that other people had. I felt like the tin man in The Wizard of Oz, except no ticking clock could take the place of the heart I seemed to lack. It wasn't just words that convinced me.

更是我感受（或无法感受）的方式。家里充满戏剧性场面：摔门、吼叫。我尽可能躲在房间里用书隔绝世界。但我知道，当叫骂平息后，卧室门会被猛地推开，母亲会扑到床上哭泣。她搂着我的脖子说爱我，要求我也证明爱她。

It was the way I felt or didn't feel. Our house was full of drama, slammed doors, raised voices. I spent as much time as I could in my room, trying to block out the world with a book. But I knew that at some point after the shouting had subsided, that my bedroom door would bang open and my mother would launch herself onto the bed, weeping. She would wrap her arms around my neck, tell me she loved me, and ask me to show her that I loved her too.

每次我都眼神干涩，脊背僵硬。那一刻我感到难以启齿的冰冷，就像冻河底的石头，深陷静止的冰层。连母亲都不爱的怪物算什么？我对祖父母确有某种感情，却不知如何命名——

Each time, my eyes stayed dry, my back rigid. I felt in those moments a terrible, unspeakable coldness. I was a stone in a frozen river wedged into the bottom, buried deep in stillness and ice. What kind of monster doesn't love her mother? I did feel something for my grandparents, but I wasn't sure what to call it.

那是一种静谧私密的情感。在他们身边时，我体内有微小而稳定的火焰，但我不认为那是爱。爱应该是盛大喧闹的：爱会抱头痛哭，睫毛膏混着泪水晕染；爱会摔门而出冲进夜色，愤怒到扣不上外套或梳理头发。

My feelings for them were quiet and private. I felt a small steady flame inside me when I was near them, but I didn't think of it as love. Love was big and loud and messy. Love rocked on the floor, head in hands, eyes running with mascara and angst. Love slammed doors and stalked out into the night, too rot up to button its coat or brush its hair.

爱不是你能选择或渴望的东西。爱会猛烈地驾驭你，将你撕碎。爱会摧毁你。十六岁离开父母家时，我无法去爱已成为我特质的一部分，就像我的绿眼睛和卷发一样。我对此轻描淡写，告诉那些对我有兴趣的男人，你不想和我扯上关系。

Love was not something you chose or wanted. Love rode you hard and tore you up. Love broke you. By the time I left my parents' house at 16, my inability to love was part of my repertory, like my green eyes and curly hair. I was flip about it, telling guys who were interested, you don't want to get involved with me.

我只会伤透你的心。而我也确实这么做了。我早期与男性的关系更像是车祸而非求偶仪式，充满了渴望、绝望和痛苦。有一次，我闯入前男友的公寓，偷回了所有我曾送给他的礼物。我背着一位男友与另一位交往，然后又背叛新欢重投旧爱怀抱。

I'll only break your heart. And I did. My early relationships with men were more like car wrecks than mating rituals, tending toward longing, despair, and anguish. Once, I broke into a boyfriend's apartment and stole back every gift I'd ever given him. I cheated on one boyfriend with another, and then again on the new one with the first.

许多次，我哭着入睡，醒来时睫毛膏在脸颊上晕开。那时我以为，这就是爱。它让你痛苦不堪，弄脏你的枕套。我恶劣地对待男人，也允许他们恶劣地对待我。这又有什么关系呢？

Many times, I cried myself to sleep and woke up with mascara smeared across my cheeks. That, I thought, was love. It made you miserable and stained your pillowcase. I treated men badly and let them treat me badly. Why did it matter?

我是个残缺的人，无法去爱的人。我活该如此，任何蠢到靠近我的人也活该承受后果。直到近三十岁遇见我丈夫时，我那玩世不恭的态度已转变为惆怅。'你看起来是个好人，'相识不久后的某个夜晚我说，'好过头了。'

I was the damaged one, the one incapable of love. I deserved what I got, and anyone stupid enough to get near me deserved what he got. By the time my husband came along in my late twenties, my cavalier attitude had morphed into wistfulness. You seem like a nice guy, I said one evening soon after we met. Too nice.

'我最终会伤害你。我们只做朋友吧。''我确实是个好人，'他回答，'但你凭什么认为我想要的不止友谊？''只要我们把话说清楚，'我说着，甚至在我们开始约会后仍不断重复这句话。

I'll wind up hurting you. We should just be friends. I am a nice guy, he replied. And what makes you think I want anything more than friendship? Just as long as we're clear, I said, and kept on saying it even after we started dating.

但我们的关系与众不同。它平静如水，毫无折磨。我们绕着城市漫步，在他母亲位于上州的乡村隐居地散步。我们看电影，分享印度美食。我们几乎从不争吵。

But our relationship was different. It was quiet, utterly devoid of torment. We took long walks around the city and around his mother's rural Upstate enclave. We went to movies and shared Indian food. We rarely fought.

我喜欢和他在一起时的自己。'但这不算爱，'我告诉他，'我太自私，无法真正爱别人。'他直视我的眼睛：'我了解你的本质，知道你是个善良且充满爱的人。'

I liked who I was with him. But it's not love, I told him. I'm too selfish to really love anyone else. He looked me in the eye. I know who you are, and I know you are a good and loving person.

我嫁给他，部分原因是希望他是对的。我希望他能看到我自己看不到或感受不到的东西，因为我无法将他眼中的我与毕生的自我认知统一起来。这个男人对我有着他的期许，想把我塑造成某种模样，但我清楚自己的本质。尽管我深知对他怀有某种深刻情感，却连对自己都无法名状。四年后，当我在圣文森特医院的走廊徘徊等待催产素生效时，恐惧感深入骨髓。

I married him, in part, because I hoped he was right. I hoped he saw something in me I couldn't see or feel, because I couldn't reconcile his sense of me with my lifelong view of myself. This man had his own vision of me, what he wanted me to be, but I knew what was at my core. And while I knew that I felt something deep for him, I couldn't give it a name even to myself. Four years later, as I walked the halls of Saint Vincent's Hospital waiting for the pitocin to take effect, I felt terror right through my bones.

接下来的二十四小时内，我将分娩，届时终将认清自我真相。经历三天无眠和十四小时剧烈阵痛后，当女儿终于被放在我胸前——她乌黑的头发还沾着血迹——我已疲惫到无法感知情绪。唯一确定的是，有生以来第一次，我不再思考自己是怎样的人、是善是恶、是否值得被爱。那个夜晚以及随后无数不眠的昼夜，我首先且几乎完全想着另一个人。当女儿啼哭时，我胸腔里会共振着拳头般的绞痛。

Sometime within the next twenty four hours, I would give birth, and then I would finally know the truth about myself. After three days without sleep and fourteen hours of hard labor, I was too exhausted to know what I felt when my daughter was finally laid on my chest, her dark hair slick with blood. What I did know was that for the first time in my life, I wasn't thinking about myself, about what kind of person I was, whether I was good or bad, lovable or not. That night and in the many wakeful nights and days that followed, I was thinking first and nearly wholly about someone else. When my daughter cried, I felt it in my own chest, a vibrating fist of pain.

当她安睡、吃奶或后来发出笑声时，我仿佛置身光环之中。而与丈夫的情感生活中，我会花数小时分析合理化自己该不该、有没有对他产生某种感觉。我们的亲密时刻常被我的焦虑笼罩，被朋友戏称为（绝非褒义）

When she slept or nursed or later laughed, I felt as if I stood in a halo of light. When it came to my emotional life with my husband, I could spend hours analyzing and rationalizing what I did or didn't, should or shouldn't feel for him. Our moments of connection were often framed by my anxiety, by what a friend called, meaning no praise, my nimble mind. My efforts to make sense of our connection felt more like a rat running on a wheel than rational thought. What I felt for my daughter bypassed the language center of my brain altogether.

那是道贯通头心的电流，噼啪作响。不是玫瑰与巧克力式的浪漫。事实上多数时候，这种感觉近乎难以承受，如同血液重新流入冻僵的肢体。对女儿的情感挤压着我的胸腔，让我彻夜担忧她是否吃饱喝足、是否快乐、是否还在呼吸。这是爱吗？

It was a jolt, an electric sizzle that connected my head to my heart. It wasn't hearts and flowers. In fact, much of the time, felt nearly unbearable, like blood starting to flow into a frozen extremity. My feelings for my daughter constricted my chest and kept me up nights worrying about whether she was getting enough to eat, to drink, whether she was happy, whether she was still breathing. Did I love her?

面对如此强烈而根本的羁绊，

The word seemed puny in the face of such an intense and fundamental sense of connection with another human being. I realized that part of the issue for me was semantic. I'd come to associate the word love with feelings of pain and despair. But this connection we had, this bond, this was a whole new experience. For weeks, I did not, could not name it.

直到某天，当女儿在尿布台上哭泣时，这句话自然滑出唇间：

And then one day, the words slid out of my mouth as my daughter cried on the changing table. I love you. Yes. I do, I said, patting her dry, fastening the Velcro strips on her diaper cover. And for the first time in my life, I believed it.

如今我们都能轻松说出这个词。19岁的大女儿每次通话结束都会说

We use the word easily now, all of us. My older daughter, now 19, says I love you at the end of each of our phone calls, even brief logistical chats. My 14 year old says it every night, no matter how irritated she is with her clueless parents. Now that I've come to think of myself as capable of both giving and receiving love, I can feel that jolt sometimes with my husband as well as my daughters. And I can look back on my childhood with different eyes too.

不久前的一天，我偶然看到那张我和姐姐的黑白照片，照片里我皱着眉头，身体侧向一边。我曾多次看到它，却从未真正端详过，害怕会看到自己想象中的那个怪物。这一次，我强迫自己看着那个塑料发夹别着我的刘海，看着我五岁时纤细的手臂。我第一次想到，也许我并不是在皱眉，也许我只是在阳光下眯起了眼睛。

One day, not long ago, I came across that black and white photograph of my sister and me, the one where I'm scowling and leaning away. I'd seen it many times, but had never really looked at it, afraid I would see the monster I always imagined myself to be. This time, I made myself look at the plastic barrette holding back my bangs, my spindly five year old arms. It occurred to me for the first time that maybe I wasn't scowling. Maybe I was squinting into the sun.

我看着自己身体远离姐姐的姿态，突然想到或许我正倾向站在画面外的某个人——我的祖母。一个全新的故事在我脑海中展开。

I looked at the way my body leaned away from my sisters and wondered if I was leaning towards someone who was standing outside the frame, my grandmother, A whole new story unspooled in my head.

我

I

当时五岁。阳光刺眼。我又累又饿，想奔向祖母，因为我渴望感受内心那簇稳定的小火焰。我想体会那个我从小以为自己无法体会的感觉。这个解释，至少和我多年来深信的那个故事一样合理。

was five. The sun was in my eyes. I was tired or hungry, and I wanted to run to my grandmother because I wanted to feel that steady small flame inside me. I wanted to feel the thing I grew up believing I could not feel. It seemed at least as likely as the story I had believed for so many years.

稍后回来，请听凯莉·库恩讲述祖母如何教会她去爱。

When we come back, Carrie Kuhn on how her grandmother helped her learn how to love.

嘿，等等。这是属于你的时刻。是你此生今天的专属时刻。今天该由你玩耍、创造、行动、穿越、探索。

Hey. Hold up. This is your minute. It's your minute in this life on this day. It's your day to play, to play, to make, to move, to move through, to explore.

这个清晨该由你分享，这个周末该由你塑造，去烹饪、去沉浸、去聆听、去等待。这是你该休息、滋养、成长的身体。这是你的思想。明白吗？这是你的天地，你的国度，你该热爱、崛起、梦想、改变的人生。

It's your morning to share, your weekend to shape, to cook, to soak, to listen to, to wait. It's your body to rest, to nourish, to grow. It's your mind. You know? It's your place, your country, your life to love, to rise, to dream, to change.

这个世界同样属于你，正如它属于每个人。这是需要你去理解的世界。《纽约时报》。了解更多，请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

It's your world as much as anyone's. It's your world to understand. The New York Times. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

凯莉，非常感谢你。你此刻最直接的想法和感受是什么？

Carrie, thank you so much. What are your immediate thoughts, immediate feelings?

哦，我重读时才想起关于祖父母那段描写其实非常关键。你知道，我在一个有五个兄弟姐妹的家庭长大，父母都全职工作。父亲经营家族汽车零件店，母亲是夜班急诊室护士，白天总在睡觉。

Oh, I'd forgotten from the first time I read it that that piece about the grandparents is actually so critical. You know, I grew up in a house. I had five siblings, like I said. My parents both worked full time. My dad ran our family auto parts store, and my mom was an emergency room nurse who worked at night and slept all day.

所以她从不带我们外出，每个周末都是我照看弟弟们。而我外祖父母五十多岁时遭遇严重车祸，虽幸存却被迫退休。因此他们一生都有充足时间陪伴我们。我母亲是位好护士，但有时职业耗尽了她，她也长期抑郁。

And so she didn't take us anywhere, and I babysat my brothers every weekend. But my maternal grandparents who had been in a terrible car accident in their fifties, they survived, but it forced them both into retirement. So they were just wholly available to us our entire lives. And, you know, my mother was a good nurse, and I think sometimes it got the best of her. But she was also, you know, depressed.

她生两个男孩时都患有严重的产后抑郁。外祖母总会过来说：'孩子们跟我走'。带我们去她家过夜，那是我第一次接触电影，和祖父一起看完了所有经典黑白片。

She had really terrible postpartum depression with both boys. And my grandmother would come over and say, I'm taking the kids. And she would take us to their house, and we would spend the night there. That's where I first started watching movies. I watched all the classic black and white movies with my grandfather.

我们吃着爆米花喝着汽水熬夜，他们给予的是那种稳定的、恒久的、溢于言表的爱。因为我的原生家庭是典型的中西部克制风格——很少说'我爱你'，也不常拥抱。

We would eat popcorn and drink soda, stay up, you know, too late. And they were such a source of of steadiness, constancy, and love, really, you know, effusive love. Because my family was a bit Midwestern classic Midwestern withholding. You know? We didn't say I love you a lot, and we didn't hug.

但祖父母的爱确实支撑着我们所有人。并非我父母做错了什么，而是祖父母做得太完美了。

But that love of my grandparents, I know, sustained all of us. Not because my parents did anything wrong, just that my grandparents did something really right.

你能多说说小时候去祖父母家的感受吗？你会离开自己家。我不知道你是否乘车。你是怎么到那里的，途中和抵达时身体有什么感觉？告诉我你身体的感受。

Can you tell me a bit more what being at your grandparents' house felt like for you as a kid? You'd leave your home. I don't know if you got in the car. What what how did you get there, and what did it feel like as you were heading there and and once you arrived? Tell me what it felt like in your body.

哦，这个问题真有意思。他们只住在一英里外，所以车程很短。一旦他们接上你，你就知道很快能到。整个过程很简单。我确实有这种感觉，因为我妹妹是从萨尔瓦多收养的。

Oh, that's such an interesting question. They lived only a mile away, and so the drive was short. And so once they grabbed you, you knew you'd be there soon. And there was no complication. So I did feel because, you know, my sister was adopted from El Salvador.

她比我大一岁半，但由于她四岁来到这个国家时不会说这里的语言。我终于有了个妹妹，不是那个总惹我的哥哥，我对她负有巨大的责任。我想因为我相信祖母会满足我们的需求，所以在他们那里我可以放下部分责任。我对她没有同样的责任感。你知道，在某种程度上我是个早熟的女儿。

She's a she's a year and a half older than me, but because of her, she came into this country at age four not speaking the language. And I finally had a sister, you know, not my big brother who could really push my buttons, I felt a tremendous amount of responsibility for her. And I think because I believed that my grandmother, our needs would be met by her, that I got to drop some of that responsibility when I was with them. I didn't feel the same level of responsibility for her. You know, I was a bit of a parentified daughter in that way.

现在听你这么说，我想当时肩膀可能放松了些，到那里就是一种解脱。尽管我没有公开表达需求，但祖母总能直觉到你的需要。这种情况一直持续到我高中，我是个很忙的高中生。祖母会做些事，比如她知道我妈不会带我去购物，我妈不爱购物。

And I guess now that you say it, there was a bit of a probably shoulder drop and a relief just to be there. And I even though I I didn't express my needs openly, my grandmother was someone who would intuit your needs. And that continued all the way through even when I was in high school, I was a very involved high school student. And my grandmother would do things like she knew my mom wasn't gonna take me shopping. She's not a shopper.

她会去Dillard's给我买10件小黑裙带回家，说下周是返校节，我们试试这些。哇，选你喜欢的，其余的我会退回去。这种关怀程度令人惊叹。

And she would go to Dillard's and buy me 10 little black dresses and bring them to the house and say, homecoming is next week. Let's try these on. Wow. Let's pick the one you like, and I'll take the rest back, which that's a tremendous level of care.

确实是。

Really is.

尤其当你深陷青少年的混乱时，有人这样...而且她品味很好。你喜欢那些裙子吗？她的品味无可挑剔。我有点洗衣强迫症，因为祖母教我买漂亮的东西，无论新品还是二手，都要好好保养。

Especially when you're dealing with the morass that is being a teenager to have somebody actually and she had really good taste. Did you like the dresses? She had incredible, impeccable taste. I have. I'm a bit laundry obsessed because my grandmother taught me to buy, you know, beautiful things, whether first or secondhand, and just take really good care of them.

比如，质量比数量更重要。你知道吗？所以每当我从毛衣上洗掉一个污渍，其实我是在想着我的祖母。

Like, quality was more important than quantity. You know? And so whenever I get a stain out of a sweater, it's really I think about my grandmother.

这是一种表达你爱她的方式。是的。我的意思是，拿出汰渍笔就是在说‘我在乎’。我们之前聊过，你理解的爱的概念，至少在父母家和成长过程中，是‘我必须有用’。而到了祖父母家，你就可以放下这个包袱。

It's a way of of telling that you love her. Yeah. I mean, getting the Tide Pen out is a way of saying yeah. I mean, what you're talking about this sort of when you we spoke earlier how your understanding of of love, at least in your parents' home and your own home growing up, was I need to be of utility. And then when you go to your grandparents' house, you get to drop that.

你不需要有用。你不需要扮演家长的角色。你只需要存在。你可以只是个孩子——那一定非常自由。

You don't need to be useful. You don't need to be the sort of parental figure. You can just exist. You can just be a kid that must have been so freeing.

是的。确实如此。我在那里感到非常安全。

Yes. Yes. It was. Yeah. I felt really safe there.

这种关系一直持续到我二十多岁，因为她甚至是第一个发现我‘连续重叠恋爱’到危及生命程度的人。等等，你是说...

And that relationship continued with her well into my twenties because she even she was the first person when I was serial overlapping in relationships to the to the point of my death Wait. Do mean

‘连续重叠’是指出轨吗？

serial overlapping means cheating?

我当时同时交往多个男友。是的。大学时有段时间，我瞒着两个男生交往了很久，整个宿舍楼都在帮我打掩护，那种魅力用对了地方...现在回想起来，能完成这么复杂的操作还挺让人惊叹的。

I had multiple boyfriends at the same time. Yes. And at one point in my life in college, I was dating two guys who didn't know, and they've been going on a long time. And my entire dormitory was conspiring to help me, so was very enrolling, using those you know, that charisma for good. It was kind of I mean, I think marveling at what I was able to pull off was pretty pretty complex.

整个宿舍楼都站在你这边也很了不起。是的。

Whole dorm on your side is also remarkable. Yep.

是的。那相当激烈，我的室友们确实...我是说，有点。但我真的压力很大，所以我选择了出国留学。我报名留学，然后离开了这个国家。那就是我的处理方式——那说明我有多无能为力。

Yes. It was pretty intense, and my roommates certainly I mean, a little bit. But I it got really stressful, and so I studied abroad. I signed up to study abroad, and I left the country. That was my way of deal that was how incapable I was.

沟通。奶奶

Communicating. Grandma

知道你当时困在这两段关系里

knew about these two relationships you were confining

在她看来？嗯，是的。因为我回来时头脑足够清醒，意识到我需要立刻结束这两段关系。我是天主教徒，所以我想我必须惩罚自己，对吧？

in her? Well, yeah. Because I came back clear headed enough to be like, I need to end both of these, and I need to fast. I'm Catholic, so I was like, I have to punish myself. Right?

那就是我的...我想我的家人也看出我在自我惩罚。我祖母很担心我的健康，这很合理。她给我写了封了不起的信，大概在我留学归来前。她只是说，听着。

That was my and I think my family recognized that I was punishing myself. And my grandmother was worried about my well-being, rightly so. And she wrote me this incredible letter. I think it was before I came back from studying abroad. And and she just was said, look.

我看得见你。我明白你在做什么，但你要知道怜悯不等于爱。你隐瞒真相并不是在尊重那些人，因为你没给他们选择的机会。而我当时没意识到，我也没给任何人信任。我不相信有人能承受我的经历，也不相信他人的能力，这本质上既不宽容又非常自我中心。

I see you. I see what you're doing, and I want you to know that pity is not the same as love. And you are not dignifying those people by withholding information from them because you are not letting them make a choice. And what I didn't realize at the time is that I was also not allowing anyone the credit. You know, I didn't believe anybody could handle what I had, and I didn't believe in anyone's capacity, which is fundamentally not generous and very egocentric.

这就是她当时告诫我的事情。我花了很长时间才真正领悟她给我的这个教训。

And that was the thing she was calling out. Now it took me a long time to actually learn that lesson that she was giving me.

听你描述，你的祖母显得极具洞察力、一针见血又充满同情心，这种直觉式的智慧令人惊叹。我是说，能写出那样一封信，本质上是在叫你收敛，却用最温柔的方式展现了她对你深刻的了解，以及你正在经历的挣扎——这实在太有力量了。你说你花了很多年才内化她在信中给你的教诲，什么时候开始感觉这些道理逐渐清晰，你内心开始发生转变的？

She your grandma is it sounds incredibly insightful and incisive and compassionate and intuitive in this way that is remarkable. I mean, to to to write that letter and to basically tell you to knock it off, but in the most beautiful way, in a way that shows her deep knowledge of you and what you're struggling with is it's just so powerful. It's so remarkable. You said it it took you many years to internalize that lesson that she gave you in that letter. When did you start to feel things start to click, start to shift in you?

遇见我丈夫的时候。我们立刻认定了彼此。当时我们各自都处在另一段充满故事的关系里。

When I met my husband. We clocked each other immediately. We were with in both in other relationships with story.

我很想听听你们相遇的故事。

I would love to hear the origin story.

好吧。当时我终于获得了Steppenwolf剧院主舞台的演出机会，在《谁害怕弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫》这部剧中扮演一个令人艳羡的角色。那是个关于酗酒婚姻的戏，完全不像会遇到人生伴侣的地方。而崔西比我大十五岁——

Okay. Okay. So I got I finally got cast in the main stage at Steppenwolf, a very coveted role in the play Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Boozy marriage play, not where you think you're gonna meet your life partner. And Tracy's fifteen years older

——崔西·卢茨。

than me. Tracy Lutz.

那时我正和某人交往，说句公道话，对方会为我的某些行为约束我。我进入这段关系时就知道对方能提供这样的管教。当时我确实有些迷失方向，需要有人稍微管束我。所以我做了这个选择。而他当时的那段关系也快走到尽头了。

And I was in a relationship with with, I will say, lovingly, with someone who was going to hold me accountable for some of my behavior. And I got into that relationship knowing that that person was offering me that. And I was pretty unmoored at the time, and I needed someone who was gonna put me in my place a little bit. And that and so I I made that choice. And he was in a relationship that was kind of running its course.

你知道吗？他们当时正处于必须决定是否有未来的关头。而我们俩也都隐约意识到，我觉得你是个会留退路的人，就像逃生舱口一样。我们看到了那个出口。如果你是这样的人，你就能感知到那个逃生通道的存在。

You know? They were kind of at the point where they had to decide whether they had a future or not. And we both were all we also sort of recognized, like, I think you're a person who leaves the door open, you know, as an an escape hatch. We saw the escape. Like, you can you can sense an escape hatch if you're if you're someone who's, you know, who's got one.

然后我们开始了暧昧。但我很快就明白——也许部分因为他比我大十五岁——我所拥有的一切他都见识过、都能应对。我意识到，对这个人的任何真实想法，我都可以直言不讳，没有什么会吓到他。正是这种对他的信任，让我发现自己从未真正对任何人有过这种信念，无论对错。

And, you know, we started to we started our flirtation. But what I very quickly started to understand about maybe because partly because he was fifteen years older than me was that there was nothing I had that he had not seen or couldn't handle or And couldn't I I understood that this person, any truth I had, I could say out loud, and there was nothing that would scare him. And so it was really that belief in him that then led me to to realize that I had all never actually believed that about anyone, rightly or wrongly.

当你找到与特蕾西的那种爱情后，你对自己的认知发生了怎样的变化？这如何改变了你对爱的理解？

How did your understanding of yourself change once you found that love with Tracy that you're describing? How did it change how you understood love?

我值得被爱。有人看透了完整的我，包括我的缺陷和处世方式，并看出那并非真实的我——我内在还有更多，我的行为不代表我这个人，我不堕落也不残缺。我只是在重复某些行为模式，而他看穿了这点。于是我立刻就能停止那些行为。当我父母初次见他时，他们说这是第一次见到真实的我，没看到我在他们眼前伪装。这也让我隐约明白他们其实也懂我，虽然我可能从未相信过。

That I was worthy of it, that somebody saw all of me, flaws and all, including the way I was conducting myself in the world, and saw that that actually wasn't me, that there was actually more there, and that I was not my behavior, and I was not immoral, and I was not damaged. I was just living out some patterns of behavior that were not actually me, and he saw it. And so I didn't have to do it anymore immediately. And when my parents met him for the first time, to their credit, they said this is the first time you have actually been yourself, that I've not seen you change before my eyes, which also gave me a little clue that they saw me too, which I had never believed, maybe.

你祖母见过特蕾西吗？

Did your grandma meet Tracy?

没有。她在我们在一起前就去世了。他们都爱赌马，所以我特别遗憾。他们本该会享受所有大赛事的。但她终究没能亲眼见到我遇见此生伴侣。

No. She passed away before we got together. And they both loved to bet on horses, so I'm really sad about it. They would have really just loved all the big races. But, no, she never got to see me meet my partner in real time.

但从某种意义来说，卡丽，当你阐述这种对爱的认知转变——关于能表达爱、值得被爱的人对你意味着什么时...嗯...她虽未能在世间见到特蕾西，但她倾注在你身上的所有爱，塑造了你能与特蕾西相爱并接纳她爱的这种人格。

In a way, though, Carrie, as you're sort of articulating this transformation in your understanding of someone who can express love, who who deserves it, what that means to you. Mhmm. She did not meet Tracy, you know, in this world, but all of the work she put into loving you prepared you to be the kind of person who could Yeah. Be in love with Tracy and accept love from Tracy.

毫无疑问。她播下了那么多种子。

No question. She planted so many seeds.

某种程度上，我确实觉得他们...你懂吗？他们相遇过。

In a way, I do feel like they've You know? They've met.

我没想到这会扯到我奶奶迪身上，

I didn't know this was going to become about my grandma Dee,

但我很高兴。致迪奶奶，我正想说我们需要...我很想给这个角色冠以名字，现在在我看来她是世上最智慧的女性。迪奶奶。迪奶奶。

but I'm so glad. To. Grandma Dee, I was gonna say we need to I would love to put a sort of name to this this character that I now see as the wisest woman in the world. Grandma Dee. Grandma Dee.

是啊。达琳。她曾是科学老师。

Yeah. Darlene. She was a science teacher.

还留着她在你大学时寄给你的那封信吗？

Have that letter that she sent you in college?

当然。绝对留着。那封信对我太重要了。当时没人对我说真话。

I do. I absolutely do. I have it. It was so important to me. Nobody was speaking the truth to me.

你知道，这就是那种当你感觉不被看见的时刻，当人们没有真正关注你的时候

You know, that's part of when you you don't feel seen when people aren't, like, holding you

对你负责。和你一起。明白吗？完全同意。

accountable. With you. You know? Absolutely.

就像在说，哦，你其实并不在乎。是啊。我在世界上横冲直撞造成的伤害，却没人注意到。你感受不到自己的行为

It's like, oh, you don't really care. Yeah. Damage I'm doing, running rough shot on the world, and nobody notices. You don't feel your Do

你回信了吗？然后我会放下这封信。但你有回复吗，比如读过信之类的？嗯。

you return to the letter? And then I I will move on from the letter. But do you return like, you read it Yeah.

频率如何？或者说... 你知道，我思考过这点。这是关于爱最本质真实、最引人注目的表述。怜悯不等于爱，这对年轻女性是重要的一课，因为我们的愧疚感常令人困惑。我们以为的愧疚往往并非真正的愧疚。

With some frequency? Or is You know, I think about that. That was the phrase that stood out the most as fundamentally true about love. The pity is not the same as love is a really important lesson for women for young women because our feelings of guilt are confusing. What we think of as guilt is not guilt.

通常只是你已太习惯于消化他人的情绪，以至于你变得... 这是界限感的缺失。你

It's often just you've gotten so habituated to metabolizing other people's feelings, and so you are not so it's it's boundarylessness. You

没有

don't

没有任何界限。而我想要的——我想我母亲、祖母真正想说的是关于界限的问题，而我恰恰缺乏这一点。我希望我的女儿和儿子能拥有清晰的界限，这样他们就能明确表示：那些是你的感受，不是我的。我要把这些感受还给你，让你自己处理。

have any boundaries. And I want what my what my mother my grandmother was really getting at, I think, was boundaries, which I did not have. And I want my daughter and my son to have very clear boundaries so that they're able to say, those are your feelings, actually. Those aren't my feelings. And I'm gonna go ahead and give those feelings back to you so you can deal with them.

因为我不希望他们为自己的需求道歉。我希望他们能明确表达需求，并明白有时他们的需求会给他人带来不便或不适——但你可以用尊重、慈悲的方式做到这点，同时把这些感受归还给对方处理。这才是我希望他们具备的能力。

Because I don't want them to apologize for their needs. I want them to be able to articulate their needs and know that sometimes their needs are gonna inconvenience other people, make people uncomfortable, and that you can do that respectfully, compassionately, and still return those feelings to to people for them to deal with. That's what I want them to be able to do.

你知道吗，你正在带我们经历从年轻时的卡莉到如今卡莉的蜕变，你对爱的理解的进化。能和你一起梳理这段历程真是令人惊叹。回顾我们探讨的这一切，我要问你一个重要问题——我知道你能应对：爱是我们与生俱来的认知，还是我们后天习得的？

You know, you're you're really taking us through, like, the evolution of from young Carrie to Carrie now, your understanding of what it means to love. It's it's incredible to chart this territory with you. And looking back over this, you know, this territory that we've traversed, I'm gonna ask you a big question. I know you can handle it. Is love something we know inherently, Or is it something we learn along the way?

或是两者的某种结合？你怎么看？

Or is it some combination of both? What do you think?

噢，我认为是结合的。对吧？只因我们常常对自己如此陌生。有时需要花很长时间穿透所有行为模式，才能找到藏在里面的人——甚至可能根本不存在这样一个'内核'。

Oh, I think it's a combination. Right? Only because so often we're we're just so unknown to ourselves. And sometimes it takes a long time to dig through all those patterns of behavior and find the person who's in there. And again, maybe there's maybe there is no person in there.

我愿意保持开放态度接受这种可能性。但我想我们学到最重要的或许是：不必把事情个人化，每个人都在按行为模式行事。你要有足够胸怀给予他们超越这段旅程的空间与宽容——就像我丈夫对我做的那样。他明白我仍需成长，但值得他投资。

I I'm willing to kind of stay open to that possibility. But I think what we start to maybe the thing we learn the most is how we we really don't have to take things personally, that everybody's acting out of patterns of behavior, and you have to be big enough to give them the space and the grace to be beyond that journey. Just holding space for other people, which my husband did for me. You know, he recognized that there was a lot of growing yet to do, but that that that that he was worth I was worth investing in.

卡莉·库恩，非常感谢你今天来到节目。

Carrie Kuhn, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

谢谢你，安娜。我真的很感激

Thank you, Anna. I really appreciate

本期《现代爱情》由里瓦·戈德堡和戴维斯·兰德制作，詹娜·帕尔默和珍·波扬特编辑，克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫负责制作管理。主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作，本集原创音乐来自马里昂·洛萨诺、帕特·麦库斯克、罗温·内米斯托和丹·鲍威尔。

episode of Modern Love was produced by Riva Goldberg and Davis Land. It was edited by Gianna Palmer and Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Joseph. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Rowan Nemisto, and Dan Powell.

本集混音由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯完成，录音室技术支持来自麦迪·马谢洛和尼克·皮特曼。特别感谢罗伯特·凯斯勒、马希玛·查布拉尼、内尔·加洛格利、杰弗里·米兰达和保拉·舒曼。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑，米娅·李负责现代爱情项目的编辑工作。

This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Robert Kessler, Mahima Chablani, Nell Galogli, Jeffrey Miranda, and Paula Schuman. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of modern love projects.

如果你想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或微型爱情故事，我们的节目说明中提供了投稿指南。我是安娜·马丁，感谢收听。

If you wanna submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.