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嘿，我是《头条》的特雷西·芒福德。
Hey, it's Tracy Mumford from The Headlines.
每天早上，我们都会梳理《纽约时报》报道的所有内容以及世界上正在发生的一切，这些内容可能很多，然后整理出一份10分钟的更新，让你开启新的一天。
Every morning, we comb through everything the Times is covering and everything that's happening in the world, which can be a lot, and pull together a 10-minute update for you to start your day.
这里有突发新闻、重大调查，还有那些“哇，你知道吗？”
It's breaking news, big investigations, and those "Whoa, did you know about this?"
的故事，你在其他地方找不到。
stories you won't find anywhere else.
另外，每周五，看看你在我们的新闻测验中表现如何。
Plus, every Friday, see how you do on our news quiz.
《纽约时报》的《头条》，工作日早上在《纽约时报》应用或你收听播客的任何地方都能找到。
The Headlines from The New York Times, find it weekday mornings in the Times app or wherever you get your podcasts.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, everyone.
我是安娜。
It's Anna.
好，在我们开始今天的对话之前，我想对正在收听节目的《纽约时报》订阅用户说声谢谢。
Okay, before we get into today's conversation, I want to talk to The New York Times subscribers who are listening right now, and I want to say thank you.
你们的支持支撑着这个节目，也支撑着《纽约时报》所有的新闻报道和故事。
Your support powers the show and powers all the other storytelling and journalism coming out of the Times.
现在，我想对那些还没订阅的朋友说几句。
Now I want to talk to the people who are not subscribers yet.
我有个好消息要告诉你们。
I have something exciting for you.
当你第一次下载《纽约时报》应用时，第一个月是免费的。
Now, when you download The New York Times app for the first time, your first month in the app is free.
这意味着你可以免费阅读我们30天的新闻报道，包括所有《现代爱情》的每一集。
That's 30 days of access to our journalism, which includes every Modern Love episode ever made.
完全免费，不需要信用卡。
Totally free, no credit card required.
现在就下载《纽约时报》应用开始体验吧。
Download The New York Times app now to get started.
爱，无论现在还是永远。
Love now and always.
你昨晚恋爱了吗？
Did you fall in love last night?
我仍然爱她。
I still love her.
爱比你能感受到的任何东西都更强大。
Love is stronger than anything you can feel.
我感受到了爱。
I feel the love.
爱。
Love.
我爱你胜过一切。
And I love you more than anything.
什么是爱？
What is love?
就是爱。
Just love.
爱。
Love.
这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
欢迎收听《现代爱情》。
This is Modern Love.
不久前，丹妮丝·瑞安发现自己正拿着一杯香草拿铁，去送给一个她从未想过会送香草拿铁的人——她前夫的新妻子。
A while ago, Denise Ryan found herself bringing a vanilla latte to someone she never thought she'd bring a vanilla latte to, her ex-husband's new wife.
在此之前，丹妮丝和她其实没怎么相处过。
Denise really hadn't spent much time with her before this point.
她对这段关系有着复杂的感受，但这个女人需要她，也需要一杯香草拿铁，于是丹妮丝出现了。
She had complicated feelings about their relationship, but this woman needed her and needed a vanilla latte, and Denise showed up.
今天，我要和丹妮丝聊聊她为什么这么做，因为说到底，这跟那杯饮料没什么关系。
Today, I talk to Denise about why she did that, because it wasn't about the drink, really.
这其实是关于丹妮丝如何学会好好离婚，而不是像她父母那样闹得一团糟、充满愤怒和痛苦，以及如何让婚姻的结束不至于让一个家庭就此散掉。
It was about Denise figuring out how to have a good divorce instead of having a messy, angry, painful one like her parents had, and how to keep the end of a marriage from being the end of a family.
丹妮丝·瑞安，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Denise Ryan, welcome to Modern Love.
很高兴见到你。
Nice to meet you.
丹妮丝，你写了一篇《现代爱情》的文章，标题是《请像我一样爱我的儿子》。
Denise, you wrote a Modern Love essay called "Please Love My Son As I Do."
这篇文章讲的是你离婚后的共同抚养，尤其是你前夫再婚之后的情况。
It's about your divorce and co-parenting after it, especially after your ex-husband marries again.
但我想先问问你，在你真正经历离婚之前，你对离婚是怎么看的？
But I want to start by asking about how you thought about divorce even before you actually went through it yourself.
跟我说说，你成长过程中看到的离婚是什么样的？
So tell me, growing up, what was the version of divorce that you saw?
我在一个很棒的家庭里长大。
I grew up in a wonderful family.
那个家很大。
It was big.
很热闹。
It was boisterous.
很温暖。
It was warm.
家里到处都是书和音乐，我觉得我们家太理想了。
It was a house full of books and music, and it was so ideal, I felt our family was.
嗯。
Huh.
然后有一天，我妈突然说：“你爸和我分开了。”
And then one day, my mom just said, "Your dad and I are splitting up."
哦。
Oh.
“我们要离婚了。”
"And we're going to be getting a divorce."
那时候我们认识的人里没有谁离婚的。
We didn't know anybody else who was divorced at the time.
她告诉你这件事的时候你多大？
And how old were you when she told you that?
大概11岁。
About 11.
而且很快事情就从“这对我和你爸爸来说是最好的，因为对我们最好，所以对全家也都最好”变成了我父母连话都不愿意跟对方说，彼此之间也没什么好话。
And it quite quickly went from, "This is the best thing for me and for your father, and because it's the best for us, it's going to be the best for all of us, for the whole family," to a situation where my parents couldn't even speak to each other, and they had nothing good to say to each other.
他们让我们自己选跟谁住，然后把这个问题摆在我们面前。
And they made us choose who we wanted to live with and presented this to us.
我妈妈提出，我们要么选择跟爸爸住，要么选择跟妈妈住。
My mother presented it, that we had to choose to live with my dad, or we had to choose to live with my mom.
如果我们做不了这个决定，那就由法官在法庭上替我们决定。
And if we couldn't make that choice, then a judge would make it for us in court.
哇。
Wow.
让我快速问一下，因为变化真的太大了。
Let me just ask you really quickly, because that is such a change.
跟我说说这个过程吧。
Tell me about that progression.
从你的角度来看，事情是怎么变得这么快的？
How did things change so quickly, from your perspective?
我们当时完全懵了。
We were baffled.
我们当时完全不知道发生了什么，后来我才慢慢了解到，我爸其实是家里管钱的那个人。
We didn't know what was going on, and there was a lot that I learned later on, that my father was sort of the money guy.
他有一份工作。
He had the job.
我妈以前是全职太太，但她一直想去读艺术学校。
My mother had been a stay-at-home mom, and she wanted to go to art school.
突然间，她连胸罩都不穿了。
Suddenly, she wasn't wearing a bra.
她穿得像个嬉皮士。
She was dressing like a hippie.
哇，真的吗？
Ah, wow.
她的牛仔裤上还有破洞。
There were holes in her jeans.
哇。
Wow.
变化真大。
Big changes.
她还自己卷烟抽。
She was rolling her own cigarettes.
她变成了一个烟不离手的艺术妈妈。
She became the chain-smoking art mom.
而我爸呢，就慢慢地离我们越来越远。
And our dad just sort of progressively became someone who was further and further away from us.
一想到我们必须在他们两人之间做选择，那真是让人崩溃。
And the thought that we had to choose between the two of them, that was devastating.
我们怎么能选呢？
How could we choose?
我们两个都爱，而且他们俩都是我们每个人的一部分。
We loved them both, and they were both a part of us, each of us.
对一个11岁的孩子说“选我还是选你爸爸，不然就让法官来决定”，这感觉像是难以承受的重担。
It feels like a unbelievably heavy burden to tell an 11-year-old, "Choose between me or your father, or a judge will decide for you."
你能带我回去吗？
Can you bring me back?
我知道那是很久以前的事了，但当你妈妈告诉你这件事时，你脑子里在想什么？
I know it's a long time ago, but what was running through your mind when your mom told you that?
我觉得那时候情绪真的失控了。
I think that's when emotions really took over.
我记得自己哭得很厉害。
And I remember just crying a lot.
最后我哥哥选择了我爸。
And my older brother ended up choosing my dad.
我和我弟弟选择了我妈。
And my younger brother and I chose my mom.
所以这也让我们兄弟姐妹之间产生了隔阂。
So that also caused a divide between my siblings.
因为我父母之间根本无法好好沟通——
And because my parents couldn't talk to each other-
他们只能通过我们来传话。
... in any way that was civil They spoke to each other through us.
哦。
Oh.
他们还会跟我们说对方的坏话，我觉得是希望我们转达给另一方。
And they said bad things about each other to us that I think we were expected to relay to the other parent.
我记得我父母最后一次在一起，是在一家芝士蛋糕工厂，你就能知道情况有多糟了——
The last time my parents were together that I remember was at, and this is how bad it was, we were out at a Cheesecake Factory, I think-
因为我妈为了学费的事，需要从我爸那儿多拿点钱。
... because my mom had to get a little bit more money from my dad for something related to schooling.
我们都坐下了，点了芝士蛋糕，但他们马上就吵起来了。
We all sat down, we ordered our cheesecake, but right away, they started fighting.
我爸说：“问你妈去。
My dad said, "Ask your mother.
我给她抚养费。
I'm giving her child support.
她都花在她那些抽大麻的艺术家朋友身上了。”
She's spending it on her marginal pot-smoking art friends."
然后我妈跳起来冲他喊：“要不是我，你早就死在越南了。”
And, then my mom jumped up and screamed at him, "Well, if it weren't for me, you'd be dead in Vietnam."
哇。
Wow.
餐厅里所有人都看着我们。
Everybody in the restaurant was looking at us.
我当时都哭出来了。
I was crying.
服务员手里端着两块芝士蛋糕站在那儿，场面就僵住了。
The waitress was standing there with the two cheesecakes in her hand, and that was it.
从那以后他们再也没说过话，而我正好夹在中间。
That was the last time they ever spoke to each other, and I was in the middle of that.
天哪。
Wow.
真的，就在正中间吗？
Literally, physically in the middle?
我当时就坐在桌子正中间，哭得特别伤心，完全搞不清楚到底出了什么问题。
I was physically in the middle at the table, and I was just sobbing, and I just had no understanding of what had gone wrong.
我记得我问妈妈："那我们怎么办？"
And I remember saying to my mom, "But what about us?
我们可是你的一部分啊。"
We're part of you.
我们也是爸爸的一部分。
We're also part of Dad.
你怎么能这样对我们？
How can you do this to us?"
我记得她说："你爸爸和我，在你们出生之前，我们有自己的生活，那里面没有你们。"
And I remember her saying, "Well, your father and I had a life that didn't include you before you were born."
好像我们在家庭破裂中的角色毫无意义，好像那只是他们之间的事。
As if our part in the breakup of the family was somehow meaningless, that it was only about them.
但这成了我余生都背负的伤痛。
But it became a wound that I carried for the rest of my life.
我听过一些父母离婚的人说，看着父母离婚让他们对婚姻或者长久的关系非常怀疑。
I've heard people whose parents got divorced say that watching their parents got divorced made them very skeptical of marriage or of relationships lasting.
你也有这种感觉吗？
Did you feel that way?
哦，当然有。
Oh, absolutely.
其中一个主要的挣扎就是不要对感情和爱情变得麻木。
And one of the primary struggles was not to become jaded about relationships and about love.
而且我——
And I-
嗯？
Huh
……
...
我变成了那个总是先离开的人。
I became someone who was always the leaver.
我会在别人离开我之前先离开一段感情。
I would leave a relationship before somebody could leave me.
我不知道怎么在一段感情里待下去。
And I didn't know how to stay in a relationship.
我不知道怎么去解决问题。
I didn't know how to work things through.
我记得我妈以前总说一句话："一旦你不得不开始谈这件事，那就结束了。"
I remember one of the things my mom always used to say was, "Once you have to start talking about it, it's over."
哇。
Wow.
这建议挺有意思的。
That is interesting advice.
嗯。
Huh.
好。
Okay.
对。
Yes.
然后——
And-
跟我说说这对你产生了什么影响。
Tell me how that played out for you.
这话在饭桌上说说挺有意思，但真要经营一段关系，其实不太健康。
Well, it's a great quip at a dinner table, but really, it's not really healthy if you want to have a relationship.
而且我爸妈离婚的时候，我妈特别伤心，我爸也是。
And my mom was also devastated by the split, by the divorce, and so was my dad.
看到这些，我就觉得，不让自己那么容易受影响、不让自己那么脆弱、不轻易敞开心扉去接受可能伤害我很深的东西，这样反而让我觉得更有力量。
So seeing that, I felt it was empowering to not be susceptible, to not be vulnerable, to not be open to something that could hurt me so much.
啊。
Ah.
“我绝不会让这种事发生在我身上。”
"I will never let this happen to me.
“他们经历的那些，绝不会发生在我身上。”
What happened to them will never happen to me."
我甚至都不认识什么结婚的人。
I didn't even know anyone who got married.
我觉得等我和克里斯结婚的时候，我们都三十多岁了，而我之前只参加过一场婚礼。
I think by the time Chris and I got married, and we were in our 30s, I had only been to one wedding.
哇。
Wow.
真幸运。
Lucky.
真的吗？
Really?
我开玩笑的。
I'm joking.
我现在正忙着参加闺蜜婚礼季，如果我的朋友们在听，我爱你们每一个人。
I'm in the throes of Bachelorette season, and if my friends are listening, I love each and every one of you.
但你刚才轻描淡写地提了一句，这很值得注意，因为我们正在讨论你是如何通过一有冲突就离开来保护自己的。
But tell me, you slipped that in there, but it's notable because we're talking about how you would protect yourself by leaving, at the first instance of conflict.
然而——
And yet-
……你遇到了这个男人。
... you meet this man.
他叫克里斯。
His name is Chris.
你爱上了他，然后决定结婚。
You fall in love, and you decide to get married.
为什么？
Why?
这感觉像是你曾经对自己承诺过不会做的事情。
This feels like a thing you promised yourself you would not do.
哦，我们聊过这个，因为我们都有父母离婚的经历，而且我们都对两个人怎么会……感到困惑。
Oh, we talked about it because we shared that experience of having divorced parents, and we shared that sense of being baffled by how two people who...
我是说，他的父母都是很棒的人，曾经很出色、有创造力、聪明又充满爱心，却再也不跟对方说话了。
I mean, his parents are wonderful, who were wonderful, creative, intelligent, loving people, would never speak to each other again.
所以听起来他父母也是很不愉快地离的婚。
So his parents also had a acrimonious divorce, it sounds like.
是的。
Yes.
啊。
Ah.
是的。
Yes.
所以我们作为一对情侣，一直在纠结我们能一起成为什么样的人，能不能迈出那些步子。
And so we, as a couple, struggled with what we could be together, and could we take all of those steps.
但当我们最终决定要结婚的时候，那真是一个让人欣喜若狂的突破。
But when we finally decided that we were going to get married, it was such a joyful breakthrough.
甚至可以说是兴奋到极点。
It was euphoric, even.
而且我确实想结婚。
And I did want to get married.
我想要那种完美的生活。
I wanted the white picket fence.
我父母离婚前，我曾经拥有那种完美的生活，我想再次拥有它。
I had had the white picket fence until my parents split up, and I wanted it again.
那就是我的梦想。
That was the dream.
这些对话让我发现了这一点，因为他会说：“你为什么想结婚？”
That's what I uncovered in these conversations, because he would say, "Well, why do you want to get married?
既然我们知道最终会分开，为什么还要结婚呢？”
Why should we get married when we know we're just going to split up?"
然后——
And-
那你会怎么回答？
And what would you say back?
我会说：“我觉得我们可以做得不一样。”
I would say, "I think we can do it differently."
我开始在彼此的爱和深厚的连接中感受到很多希望。
I started to feel in the love that we had for each other, the deep connection that we had with each other, that there was a lot of hope.
当那层阻碍被冲破，我们就勇敢去追求了。
And when the dam burst, and we went for it.
我们让自己沉浸在那个梦想里。
We allowed ourselves to be swept away in the dream.
我想知道，不管是结婚前还是结婚后，你和克里斯有没有聊过，万一你们真的离婚了怎么办？
I wonder, either prior to getting married or after, did you and Chris, did you talk about what if you did get divorced?
你们有没有类似的计划？
Did you have a kind of plan for that?
如果有的话，你们是怎么聊的？
And if so, how did you talk about it?
没有，我们没聊过，没有。
No, we didn't talk about it, no.
你们没聊过。
You didn't talk about it.
有意思。
Interesting.
没有。
No.
跟我说说为什么。
Tell me why.
我觉得我们当时相信我们会不一样。
I think we believed that we would be different.
我们相信我们会不一样，因为我们聊过各自父母经历过的事情。
We believed that we would be different because we had talked about what our parents had gone through.
我们聊过那些事对我们产生的影响。
We had talked about- How that had impacted us.
所以我们彼此承诺，不让那样的事情发生。
And so part of our commitment to each other was to not let that happen.
我们当时觉得，当然我们会永远在一起。
And the way we saw that playing out was that, of course, we would be together forever.
我们非常般配。
We were perfectly matched.
所以你们甚至无法想象这段婚姻会结束？
So you couldn't even imagine a world in which this marriage did not last?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
那跟我说说，大概什么时候你开始觉得你和Chris之间出了问题？
Tell me about then, maybe when you first started to sense that something wasn't working between you and Chris.
大概是结婚四五年的时候。
It was four or five years into the marriage.
我们经常吵架。
We were fighting a lot.
现在回头看，我觉得即使我们想要某种结果，可能也没有那个能力去实现它。
And my perspective on that now is that even though we wanted something, we may not have had the tools to achieve it.
你这话是什么意思？
Tell me what you mean by that.
我的意思是，我一直是那种说走就走、'算了，我不干了'的人，我真的不太明白留下来解决问题意味着什么。
I mean that as someone who had always been the leaver, the, "Fuck it, I'm out," person, I really didn't understand what it meant to stay and work through things.
你妈妈的建议。
Your mom's advice.
我想——
And I'd like-
你妈妈关于……什么时候该谈这件事的建议。
Your mom's advice about- ... when you have to talk about it.
这我能理解。
That makes sense to me.
但你能给我讲讲，有没有哪次吵架你特别记得？
But can you bring me, is there a specific fight you remember?
天哪，太多了。
God, there were so many.
我记得，我当时怀孕八个半月。
I remember, I was actually eight and a half months pregnant.
好像是除夕夜，我让他去商店买东西，结果他买错了肉，也买错了奶酪，等等，都是做我想做的那个菜要用的。
And I think it was New Year's Eve, and I had dispatched him to the store, and he had come back with the wrong cut of meat and the wrong cut of cheese, et cetera, to make this recipe that I wanted to make.
现在想想，为这种事大惊小怪好像挺傻的，但有时候就因为一句“这是牛腰肉，不是菲力”，事情就能很快变成互相伤害。
And now it seems so silly that I would make a fuss about something like that, but things could devolve really quickly into hurt feelings over something as simple as, "It's a sirloin, not a filet."
我记得我们大吵了一架，然后我抓起行李箱，收拾好东西，气冲冲地走了。
And I remember we just had this huge fight, and I went, and I grabbed my suitcase and packed it and stormed out.
我去了朋友家，说：“完了。
And I went to my friend's house, and I said, "That's it.
结束了。”
It's over."
我还是会不由自主地往那个方向想，而正常夫妻可能只会觉得那是一次小拌嘴。
I was still automatically going to that place where I think a normal couple might see something as just a spat.
对我来说，事情总是严重得多。
To me, it was always something much worse.
我总觉得整段关系要完蛋了。
I would see the whole relationship going off the cliff.
那时候我已经怀孕八个半月了。
And so I was eight and a half months pregnant.
我回去了。
I went back.
得了吧，丹尼斯。
Come on, Denise.
我朋友说："吃点巧克力。"
My friend said, "Have some chocolate.
我开车送你回去。"
I'll drive you back."
从我这边看，我情绪波动很大，而他则变得疏远又冷漠，这就是我们之间的相处模式。我觉得如果只是我们两个人，这样倒也还行，但有了孩子之后，让他夹在中间，我能看出来这对他不健康。
From my perspective, I was very emotional, and he would grow very distant and cold, and that was kind of our dynamic, and I think that was okay when it was just the two of us, but once we had a child, to have him in the middle of that, I could see that it wasn't healthy for him.
你有个儿子。
You have your son.
他叫亚历山大。
His name is Alexander.
你刚才提到你儿子夹在中间，我记得你还说过在芝士蛋糕工厂时，你夹在你父母中间的情景。
You're talking about your son being in the middle, and I recall you at the Cheesecake Factory in between your parents.
你能告诉我亚历山大出生后是什么情况吗？你是怎么开始用不同的方式看待事情的，他是目睹了你们的关系，还是被夹在你们中间？
Can you tell me what was it like once Alexander was born, and how you were thinking about things differently, that he was witness or in the middle of your relationship?
嗯，我想也许为了孩子，我们分开会更好，因为我们可以承受互相伤害然后恢复过来，但我不确定他能不能在情感上挺过去。
Well, I guess I thought maybe we would be better off apart for our child's sake because we could endure hurting each other and recover from it, but I didn't know that he could survive that emotionally.
我不想让他承受我受过的那些伤。
I didn't want him to have the same wounds that I did.
哦。
Oh.
那一定让你很受打击。我希望你能跟我讲讲你是怎么开始意识到这一点的，那是什么感觉，还有你和克里斯开始讨论可能分开的那些对话。
That must have really rocked you, and I would love if you could sort of talk me through how you began to realize that and what it felt like, and also conversations with Chris that you began to have about this potential split.
是的，我觉得我们当时经常吵架，而且从那些分歧中恢复过来需要更长的时间，部分原因是我追求那种完美的家庭生活。
Yeah, I think we were fighting a lot, and it took more time to recover from those differences that we were having, and part of that came from my pursuit of the white picket fence.
我坚持要买一栋我们其实负担不起的房子。
I insisted that we buy a house that we couldn't really afford.
我们当时经济压力很大。
We were under financial pressure.
而且从来都不是因为爱不够。
And it was never a matter of not enough love.
我们彼此相爱，而且是非常亲密的朋友。
We loved each other, and we were very close friends.
我觉得在那些冲突中，我们也不想失去这份感情。
And I think we didn't want to lose that either in the conflicts that we were having.
我到现在还是有点内疚，因为那是我逃避的方式。
And I still feel somewhat badly about this because that was my way out.
哦。
Oh.
那是我学到的。
That was what I had learned.
直接离开。
Just leave.
哦。
Oh.
是你自己做的决定，但结果到底如何，你其实心里没底。
You make the choice, but you never really know.
离婚这事儿，你很快就会明白一个道理：你只是用了一堆新问题，去换掉了旧问题。
One thing you learn quite quickly when you split up a marriage is that you trade one set of problems for another.
广告之后马上回来。
We'll be right back.
大家好，我是麦克斯·布朗。
Hey, I'm Max Brown.
大家都知道，The Athletic 拥有全球最顶尖的体育新闻团队。不过今年秋天，恰逢橄榄球赛季到来，我们要推出一档前所未有的全新节目。
You know The Athletic is home to the world's best sports journalism, but this fall, just in time for football season, we're launching something unlike anything we've ever done.
我们正在打造一档每日直播节目，将在 YouTube 上同步播出。
We're building a daily show streaming live on YouTube.
主持人包括我本人、Kofi Yeboah、Charles McDonald，以及 The Athletic 自家的 Zack Harper 和 Daniel Popper。
Me, Kofi Yeboah, Charles McDonald, and The Athletic's own Zack Harper and Daniel Popper.
我们将全程直播观看那些焦点大战，并带来屡获殊荣的深度分析，还有来自内部人士的一手幕后资讯。
We'll be hosting live watch-alongs of the biggest games with award-winning analysis and behind-the-scenes insights from Athletic insiders.
在休息日，我们会更深入地报道那些你百听不厌的劲爆故事。
On off days, we'll go deeper into the hard-hitting stories you can't get enough of.
我们希望你，体育界最聪明的粉丝，也能参与其中。
And we want you, the smartest fans in sports, to be part of it.
在聊天区留下你的问题，我们会直接从源头给你答案。
Come drop questions in the chat, and we'll bring the answers straight from the source.
The Athletic Live，由 Google Gemini 呈现。
The Athletic Live, presented by Google Gemini.
在 YouTube 上关注我们，我们聊天区见。
Follow us on YouTube, and we'll see you in the chat.
你和克里斯是怎么跟亚历山大谈离婚这件事的？
How were you talking to Alexander, you and Chris, about the split?
我想我只是说：“妈妈和爸爸要住在不同的房子里了，这对你来说是好事，因为你会有两个地方可以去。”
I think I just said, "Mommy and Daddy are going to be living in a different house, and that's going to be good for you because you're going to have two places to go."
他当时好像也接受了，但我能看出他其实有点不安。
And he was kind of going along with it, but I could see that he was a little bit troubled by it.
我永远不会忘记，他的第一颗牙是在我身边掉的，那是个重要的时刻。
I'll never forget that he lost his first tooth with me, and that's a big moment.
我知道第二天他爸爸过来时，我们把这件事告诉他，说他掉了第一颗牙，我能看到克里斯那种混合着骄傲和祝贺的表情，说“哇，你的第一颗牙”，但同时也闪过一丝遗憾，因为他错过了那个时刻。
And I know when his dad came over the next day and we presented it to him that he had lost his first tooth, I could see Chris, the mix of his pride, congratulating Alexander, "Wow, your first tooth," and a flicker of sadness that he had missed that.
我非常在意亚历山大的感受，我能看出他为他爸爸感到难过，因为他爸爸没能陪他经历第一颗牙的时刻。
And I was so sensitive to Alexander's emotions, I could see Alexander feel badly for his dad, that his dad had not been able to be there for his first tooth.
所以我不得不向亚历山大保证：“别担心，你的下一颗牙会是为你爸爸掉的。”
And so I had to promise Alexander, "Don't worry, your next tooth will be for your dad."
然后我们非常小心地对待那颗牙，不敢摇得太厉害，但又要摇得恰到好处，好让它在亚历山大和他爸爸在一起的日子里掉下来。
And then we were very careful with that next tooth, not to wiggle it too much, but to wiggle it just enough so that we could time it for one of his days with his dad.
我记得当时我在想：“对他来说，以后的生活都会是这样吗？”
And I remember thinking, "Is this how it's going to be for him?
我们要一颗牙一颗牙地分割他的生活吗？
We're going to split his life tooth by tooth?
那会留下什么样的伤痕呢？”
And what kind of wound would that leave?"
我想就是从那时候起，我开始琢磨：好吧，我和克里斯要分开了，但我们要怎么做才能尽量把家庭维系在一起，让大家都少受点苦呢？
And I think that's when I started thinking, "Okay, Chris and I are splitting up, but how can we keep our family together in some way that causes the least amount of pain for all of us?"
那在这个过程中，你和克里斯之间的沟通情况怎么样？
And what was communication like between you and Chris as all of this was happening?
嗯，我们每天会像以前在一起时那样，互相打好几通电话。
Well, we were calling each other multiple times a day, just like we had when we were together.
我们一直保持着联系，聊的话题也和以前在一起时差不多。
We were in constant contact to talk about the same sort of things that we used to talk about when we were together.
这样我就能跟他分享我们孩子在做什么，而当孩子在他爸爸家时，他爸爸也能把这些情况告诉我。
So that I could share with him what our child was doing, and when he was at his dad's house, his dad could share that with me.
这些电话变得特别重要，每天打，有时候一天两三次。
And the calls became so important, these daily calls, sometimes two or three times a day.
哇，这频率真高。
Oh, that's a lot.
确实挺多的。
It's a lot.
这并不是说我想回到克里斯身边，或者克里斯想回到我身边。
And it wasn't about me wanting to be back with Chris or Chris wanting to be back with me.
而是说我们像在一起时那样，充分分享孩子生活中的那些时刻。
It was about us sharing as fully as we had when we were together, those moments in our child's life.
没有人会像你们作为父母那样，那么爱你们的孩子，那么被你们的孩子迷住。
And nobody is ever going to love your child or be as entranced by your child as you are as parents.
所以我们可以分享所有的那些时刻，那些让我们笑的事情，那些让我们生气的事情，以及我们是怎么处理的。
And so we could share all of those moments, the things that had made us laugh, the things that had made us angry, how we had managed it.
而且这也变成了——有意思的是，我以前从没想过这一点，就像我父母通过我们这些孩子来表达他们彼此之间的愤怒，我们成了传递那种怨恨和愤怒的媒介。
And it also became-- It's interesting, I had never thought of this before, but just as my parents expressed their anger to each other through us as kids, and we became the vector through which that resentment and anger was shared.
某种程度上，亚历山大成了我和克里斯之间爱与关怀的传递者。
In a way, Alexander became the vector of the love and the care that Chris and I had for each other.
某种程度上，这成了我们失去那段曾经如此期盼和渴望的婚姻的一种慰藉。
And in a way, that became a sort of a balm for the loss of the marriage that we had so hoped for and so wanted.
因为我们不再通过对方来谈论彼此了。
Because we were no longer talking to each other about each other.
我们聊的是彼此共同热爱的事物。
We were talking to each other about what we loved together.
啊。
Ah.
而那个人就是我们的孩子。
And that was our child.
通过谈论这些，我们可以做最真实的自己，彼此之间没有愤怒或怨恨，也不去触碰那些失去或失败的话题。
And through talking about that, we could be ourselves with each other without any anger or resentment, without touching on the loss or the failure.
孩子做的每件事都是面向未来的。
Everything a child does is forward-looking.
这关乎未来。
It's about the future.
我知道在一次你和克里斯的例行电话中，你得知他有了新恋情，而且关系越来越认真了。
I know that during one of your regular phone calls with Chris, you learn that he's in a new relationship, and that it's getting serious.
能跟我讲讲那次通话吗？你是怎么第一次发现这件事的？
Can you tell me about that call, where you first found that out?
那次通话我记得特别清楚，因为有点不一样。
I remember that call so well because it was a little bit different.
哦。
Ah.
你可以非常了解一个人。
You can know somebody so well.
当然。
Of course.
他的声音稍微低了一点。
The voice drops a little bit.
好，发生什么事了？
Okay, what's happening?
他在跟一个新的人约会。
He's dating somebody new.
他有点不好意思说，她比他小19岁。
He's a little embarrassed to say she's 19 years younger than him.
而且这段关系可能挺认真的。
And it might be serious.
他说：‘我们打算慢慢来，但我想让你知道，这次的感觉不太一样。’
He said, "We're taking it very slowly, but I want you to know that this feels different."
听完这话，我心里咯噔一下。
So, I took that in.
当然啦，我还是希望他能开心。
Of course, I want him to be happy.
我开了个关于那19岁年龄差的玩笑，他好像说有个什么公式。
I made a joke about the 19 years younger, and I think he said there's some sort of formula.
就是你年龄减七再乘以二，然后——
It's your age minus seven times two, and-
这个说法我也听过。
I've heard about that.
不过我觉得这并不怎么科学。
It doesn't feel that scientific to me.
我知道。
I know.
而且他们居然刚好符合那个公式——
And somehow they fit that formula-
……然后我就想，好吧。
... and it was like, okay.
年龄的一半加七。
Half your age plus seven.
我觉得就是这个。
I think that's what it is.
对，就是这个。
That's what it is, yeah.
好。
Okay.
年龄的一半加七。
Half your age plus seven.
听起来你是在用幽默来化解这一刻，但背后是什么呢？
So, it sounds like you're diffusing this moment with some humor, but what's behind that?
我觉得背后是因为年龄差距真的起了作用，因为我知道一个比我小19、20岁的女人，可能想要孩子。
I think what's behind that, I think the age difference really came into play with that, because I knew that a woman who was 19 or 20 years younger than me would probably want kids.
嗯。
Huh.
那这会怎么改变我们家庭关系的动态？
And how would that change the dynamic of-
……我们家庭关系的动态？
... our family relationship?
我在想。
I wondered.
当时有嫉妒吗？
Was there a jealousy there?
与其说是嫉妒，不如说是难过。
It wasn't jealousy so much as sadness.
我本来还想要更多孩子的。
I had wanted to have more kids.
我起步有点晚，现在已经太迟了，那如果他有了兄弟姐妹的话……
I had started a bit late, and now it was too late, and would that mean that if he had siblings...
如果亚历山大有了兄弟姐妹，是的。
If Alexander had siblings, yeah.
我本来希望他有兄弟姐妹的。
I had wanted him to have siblings.
啊。
Ah.
但我没能给他一个兄弟姐妹。
And I hadn't been able to give him a sibling.
虽然那时候还早，但这是不是意味着她比我更好？
It was still very early, but would that mean that she was a better woman than me?
这是不是意味着她比我更适合当母亲？
Would that mean that she was a better mother than me?
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那会不会把克里斯从我们儿子身边抢走？
Would that take Chris away from our son?
那我在这段关系里又算什么？
And how would I fit in that dynamic?
我不知道。
I didn't know.
我以为我们之间已经磨合得很好了。
I thought we had something that felt very well worked out.
啊。
Ah.
但现在一切都悬而未决了。
And now it was all in play.
克里斯告诉你他有了新女友安吉拉之后，他们继续见面。
After Chris tells you about his new girlfriend, Angela, they keep seeing each other.
你有没有在某个时候见过她？
Did you meet her at some point?
那是什么感觉？
What was that like?
我其实没怎么见过她，这跟以前有点不一样——
I didn't really meet her, which was a little bit different than-
有意思。
Interesting
……他之前交往过的那些人。
... some of the people that he had dated previously.
我不知道为什么。
I didn't know why.
有几次她坐在车里，我们只是路过打了个照面。
There were a couple of drive-bys where she was in the car.
我想那是我第一次见到她，就是隔着车窗打了个招呼，然后他们把亚历山大抱上车就走了。或者后来我去接亚历山大，那时他们已经搬在一起住了，她也就是在门廊上——
I think that was when I first met her, was a little hello through the window, and packed Alexander into the car, and off they went, or when I went to pick Alexander up after they had moved in together, still she was just somebody on the porch-
……隔着窗户挥挥手。
... waving through the window.
所以，感觉挺不一样的。
So, it was different.
那你当时怎么看这件事？
What did you make of that?
我也不太清楚该怎么看，就是感觉我们之间有距离。
I didn't really know what to make of it, except that there was a distance there.
而且这影响到了……
And that was impacting...
嗯，电话也不打了。
Well, the phone calls had stopped as well.
是你和克里斯之间。
Between you and Chris.
完全不打了吗？
Fully stopped?
对。
Sure.
大概是在他和安吉拉订婚那会儿。
Around the time that he and Angela got engaged.
我也不知道为什么。
And I didn't know why.
我和克里斯没聊过这件事。
Chris and I didn't talk about it.
我就猜他们可能谈过，然后设了个界限，他们之间以及和我儿子之间可以有关系，但就是不包括我。
I just guessed that maybe they had talked about it, and that a boundary may have been imposed, that they would have a relationship with each other and with my son, that didn't include me.
那你当时是什么处境？
Where did that leave you?
我就被排除在外了。
It left me on the outside.
离婚后带孩子有时候挺孤单的。
Parenting after divorce can be lonely.
就像我说的，没有人像另一位家长那样爱你的孩子。
Like I said, nobody loves your child like the other parent does.
而现在，我又觉得自己孤身一人了。
And now, here I was, I felt like I was on my own again.
唉。
Ugh.
而且我觉得，我开始怀疑自己的选择了。
And questioning my choices, I think.
那真的很难。
That's really hard.
那真的很难。
That's really hard.
你有一种了不起的、沉稳的……
You have a remarkable, centered...
我不知道怎么说。
I don't know.
你跟我说这些，我心里就想：‘天哪，这太难了。’
You're saying this stuff to me, and I'm like, "Damn, that is hard."
我很感激你为了儿子保持镇定，而且你也爱克里斯，我想你也很高兴他找到了喜欢的人。
And I appreciate that you're keeping it together for the sake of your son, and you also love Chris, and I assume you're happy that he found someone he likes.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
这些情绪可以同时存在，但你有没有过那种“我他妈气死了”或者“我好孤独”的时候？
These things coexist, but were you ever just like, "I'm fucking pissed," or, "I'm lonely?"
你有没有这么想过？
Did that ever occur to you?
还是说这只是我，又在做我那种典型的投射？
Or is this just me, doing my classic projection thing?
不，我还清楚地记得亚历山大第一次见到安吉拉的情景。
No. I still remember so vividly when Alexander first met Angela.
啊。
Ah.
他回到家，我问：“怎么样，见面顺利吗？”
And he came home, and I said, "So, how did it go?"
当然。
Of course.
“哦，她太棒了。
"Oh, she's great.
她好漂亮。
She's so pretty.
她好有趣。
She's so funny.
她做的玉米片超好吃。”
She makes great nachos."
我心里就想：“那我做的玉米片呢？”
And I'm thinking, "Well, what about my fucking nachos?"
你知道我给你做过多少盘玉米片吗？
You know how many trays of nachos I've made you?
这就是玉米片嫉妒啊。
It's the nacho jealousy.
对，就是这样。
Yeah, exactly.
但这也引出了一个有趣的点，就是你儿子现在成了传话人。
But this also brings up something interesting, which is, your son is now the go-between.
中间人。
The intermediary.
在这种情况下，他是唯一一个同时生活在
He is the only one in this situation who's inhabiting
两个家里的人，对吧？
Both homes, right?
同时进入两个空间和两种氛围。
Entering both spaces and both dynamics.
那你从亚历山大那里还了解到什么，关于那边的情况，对吧，这让你有什么感受？
So what else were you finding out, I guess, about what it was like, quote unquote, "over there," right, from Alexander, and how did that make you feel?
嗯，我了解得不够多，这又让我感觉被冷落了。
Well, I wasn't finding out enough, and that made me that again, left me feeling sort of out in the cold.
突然他有了这种秘密生活——
Suddenly he had this secret life-
嗯？
Huh
……而我对此一无所知。
... that I knew nothing about.
现在他们在一起组建家庭了。
And now they were building a family together.
他们养了一只猫。
They got a cat.
克里斯和安吉拉搬到了一起，我不得不信任她，可我甚至都不认识她，相信这种关系对他有好处。
Chris and Angela moved in together, and I had to trust her, and I didn't even know her, that this dynamic was going to be good for him.
而且他们有点倾向于想要更多的时间。
And they were kind of edging toward wanting more time.
所以我们分开的时间，可能从60/30，然后变成60/40，现在正朝着50/50发展。
So our split, which had been maybe 60/30, then 60/40, was moving toward 50/50.
所以对我来说，这又是一层失去。
So this was another layer of loss for me.
我怎么都赢不了。
I couldn't win.
嗯。
Huh.
我赢不了，因为他真的很喜欢她。
And I couldn't win because he really liked her.
当他回家说那是他吃过的最好吃的玉米片时，他没有说：“但是妈妈，我最爱你。”
And when he came home and said those were the best nachos he'd ever had, he didn't say, "But I love you most, Mommy."
我只能选择信任，只能希望安吉拉和我不会为了我儿子的爱而竞争。
I just had to trust that, had to hope, that Angela and I were not going to be in competition for the affection of my son.
哦。
Oh.
是不是感觉他们在建带篱笆的房子，而你却没有？
Did it feel like they were building the house with the picket fence and you weren't?
是的，他们确实这样做了。
They did.
他们确实建了带白色尖桩栅栏的房子。
They did build the house with the picket fence.
他们真的有一道尖桩栅栏吗？
They literally had a fence that was a picket?
他们在我们城市郊外的一个郊区共同拥有一个美丽的家。
They had a beautiful home together in a suburb just outside of our city.
他们正朝着组建第二个家庭的方向发展。
They were moving toward a second family.
订婚、教堂婚礼、乡间别墅、狗、猫，然后是孩子。
Engagement, church wedding, house in the country, dogs, cats, and then babies.
请继续收听。
Stay with us.
嘿，我是《头条新闻》的特蕾西·芒福德。
Hey, it's Tracy Mumford from The Headlines.
每天早上，我们都会梳理《纽约时报》报道的所有内容以及世界上正在发生的一切，这些内容可能很多，然后整理出一份10分钟的更新，让你开启新的一天。
Every morning, we comb through everything the Times is covering and everything that's happening in the world, which can be a lot, and pull together a 10-minute update for you to start your day.
这里有突发新闻、重大调查，还有那些“哇，你知道吗”的故事，你在其他地方找不到的。
It's breaking news, big investigations, and those, whoa, did you know about this stories you won't find anywhere else.
另外，每周五，看看你在我们的新闻测验中表现如何。
Plus, every Friday, see how you do on our news quiz.
《纽约时报》的《头条新闻》。
The Headlines from The New York Times.
工作日早上，在《纽约时报》应用或你收听播客的任何地方都能找到它。
Find it weekday mornings in The Times app or wherever you get your podcasts.
你通过亚历山大还发现了他们有了第一个孩子，对吧？
Another thing that you found out about through Alexander was them having their first baby, right?
告诉我，从你儿子那里听到这个消息是什么感觉。
Tell me what it was like to hear about that from your son.
当我得知她怀孕时，我的第一个念头是，她会生个女孩吗？
When I learned that she was pregnant, my first thought was, is she going to have a girl?
因为克里斯一直想要个女儿。
Because Chris had always wanted a girl.
除了有个儿子，他还想要个女儿，那感觉就像是我自尊心的最后一根稻草，不仅我没能再生一个孩子，我也从没给他生个女儿。
In addition to having a boy, he also wanted a girl, and that felt like that would be the final nail in the coffin of my, hmm, I don't know, my self-esteem, that not only was I not able to have a second child, I never gave him a girl.
这么想挺奇怪的，但是——
Such a weird thing to think about, but-
我懂。
I get it
……幸好是个男孩。
... luckily it was a boy.
哦，幸好。
Oh, luckily.
而且，听说他两年都没睡好觉。
On top of that, apparently he didn't sleep for two years.
好的。
Okay.
所以，我们又在笑，但这对你来说意义重大，因为现在有了——
So, again, we're laughing, but it's meaningful to you that there's now-
……这个兄弟姐妹。
... this sibling.
亚历山大有了一个你没有的兄弟姐妹。
Alexander has a sibling that you don't.
现在安吉拉和这个新生儿出现在画面里了，那你的假期是怎么过的？
Now that Angela and this new baby are in a picture, what were holidays like for you?
挺难的。
Challenging.
而且当你是一个单亲家长时，很多时候就只有你们两个人隔着桌子互相看着，尤其是男孩的妈妈。
And when you're a single parent, a lot of times it's just the two of you staring at the table, across the table at each other, especially a boy mom.
所以当他（克里斯）和安吉拉搬到一起，开始组建自己的家庭时，我知道在圣诞节那天，当克里斯接他走，他去那边的时候，他会拥有我无法给他的东西。
So when he and Angela moved in together and started their own family, I knew that on Christmas Day, when Chris picked him up and he went over there, he would have what I couldn't give him.
而我就在那里，看着网飞，等他回家。
And there I was, watching Netflix, waiting for him to come home.
但我记得和安吉拉一起过的第一个圣诞节，他回到家，带了一大袋礼物，那是安吉拉为我准备的礼物袋。
But I remember the first Christmas with Angela, he came home, and he had this big bag of gifts, and it was a gift bag that Angela had made for me.
他脸上洋溢着光彩。
And his face was shining.
他特别兴奋，能亲手把那袋礼物送给我。
He was so excited to be able to give me that bag of gifts.
而且，她还和他一起烤了姜饼人饼干，我猜她做了代表她大家庭里每个人的姜饼人。
And on top of that, she had baked with him gingerbread cookies, and I guess she had made a gingerbread cookie to represent everybody in the family, in her big extended family.
但她肯定也对他说过：“谁对你重要？”
But she must have also said to him, "Who is important to you?"
然后有一个包装精美的托盘，上面放着他们一起装饰的姜饼人，有一个像我，黑头发，有一个像我妈妈，滑稽的金发，还有一个像我们的狗查理，我真的很感动。
And there was a tray beautifully wrapped with a gingerbread cookie that they had decorated together that looked like me with my black hair, one that looked like my mom with her funny blonde hair, one that looked like our dog, Charlie, and I was really, really touched by that.
后来回想起来，我可以回头看那件事，说：“也许那是安吉拉打开了一扇门，让我能以某种方式走进去。”
Later, in retrospect, I could look back at that and say, "Maybe that was Angela opening the door so that I could walk through it in some way."
你准备好走进那扇门了吗？
Were you ready to walk through it?
我不知道自己是否准备好迈出那一步。
I don't know if I was ready to walk through it.
我也不知道该怎么做。
I also didn't know how.
从比喻意义上说，她可能是为我打开了那扇门，但现实中，我们仍然相隔很远。
Metaphorically, it might've been her opening the door, but physically, we were still very much separated.
所以，尽管那个举动如此美好、充满爱意和善意，但那是为他做的，还是为我做的呢？
So although the gesture was so beautiful and loving and kind, was the gesture for him, or was it something for me?
我不知道。
I didn't know.
我从你的文章里知道，克里斯和安吉拉有了第二个孩子。
I know from your essay that Chris and Angela have a second baby.
我想知道你能不能给我讲讲那个孩子出生时的故事，以及发生了什么。
And I wonder if you could tell me the story of that birth and what happened.
他们第一个孩子杰克出生时，是我把亚历山大送到产房门口，放下他，然后他上楼去迎接杰克的。
When they had their first child, Jack, I was the person who delivered Alexander to the door of the maternity ward and dropped him off, and he went up to meet Jack.
我当时想，他们生第二个孩子的时候，我又紧张得不行，一直等着知道是女孩还是男孩。
And I thought when they had their second child, again, I was on pins and needles waiting to find out whether it would be a girl or a boy.
结果又是一个男孩。
It was a boy, again.
谢天谢地。
Thank God.
其实，是克里斯打电话来的，或者是我打给他的，我说：“放学后我要带亚历山大过来吗？”
Actually, Chris called, or maybe I called him, said, "Should I bring Alexander after school?"
他声音很平淡，那种语气让我很担心，他说：“不用了。”
And there was a flatness in his voice, a tone that really alarmed me, and he said, "No."
宝宝感染了呼吸道合胞病毒，病得很重，已经住进了重症监护室，所以亚历山大不能来看他。
The baby had contracted RSV and was critically ill and had been put into ICU, so Alexander couldn't come to visit.
他们分娩时间很长。
They had had a long labor.
两个人都累坏了，而且他们被告知宝宝可能熬不过今晚，然后又可能熬不过今天。
They were both exhausted, and they had been told that the baby might not make it through the night, and then the baby might not make it through the day.
那一刻，我和克里斯又回到了那种亲密无间的状态，我关心他，也关心他正在面对的事情，于是我说：“我能为你做点什么吗？”
And in that moment, it was Chris and I, with our closeness again and my care for him and what he was facing, and I said, "Can I do anything for you?"
我当时想的是，喂喂猫，浇浇花之类的。
I was thinking, feed the cat, water the plants.
他说他得去接他们的第一个孩子杰克，从他奶奶那儿接回来，还说安吉拉可能真的很需要一杯香草拿铁。
He said he had to go pick up Jack, their first child, from his Oma, from his grandma, and Angela could probably really use a vanilla latte.
我心里想：“他是在让我去给她送一杯香草拿铁吗？”
I thought, "Is he asking me to go bring her a vanilla latte?"
我就说：“要不要我带一杯给她？”
I said, "Should I bring her one?"
他说：“好啊，那太好了。
And he said, "Yeah, that would be great.
她一个人在那儿。”
She's alone."
所以我就去了医院。
So I went to the hospital.
我不知道她是否希望我在那里。
I didn't know whether she would want me there.
我知道她想要一杯香草拿铁，但我不确定她是否希望我本人出现。
I knew she wanted a vanilla latte, but I didn't know whether she wanted me.
你紧张吗？
Were you nervous?
我确实紧张，而且我也不知道自己能给她带来什么，所以我想我在礼品店待的时间有点太长了。
I was, and I didn't know what I could offer her either, so I think I spent a little too much time in the gift shop.
我有点过度补偿了。
I overcompensated.
我买了杂志，买了巧克力，然后上楼去了她的房间。
And I bought magazines, I bought chocolates, and I went up to the room.
我小心翼翼地探出头，手里端着放着拿铁的托盘。
And so I just kind of poked my head around the corner really gingerly, and I had the lattes in a tray.
我给她准备了一大袋礼物，我只是在等着看她是否希望我把东西放下就走。
I had this big bag of gifts for her, and I just was waiting to see whether she wanted me to just drop it off.
但她说：“进来吧。”
But she said, "Come on in."
于是我就进去了。
And so I did.
我走进去，安吉拉看起来非常孤单。
I walked in, and Angela looked so alone.
医院病房中央放着一个保温箱，连接着巨大的屏幕和机器，这些设备正用氧气维持着婴儿的生命。
And in the middle of the hospital room was this incubator, and it was attached to these great giant screens and machines that were keeping the baby alive with oxygen.
他戴着氧气面罩，整个头都被罩住，像个太空头盔。
He had a mask, an oxygen mask, that went over his whole head like a space helmet.
这个小保温箱看起来就像一艘宇宙飞船。
And this little incubator looked like a spaceship.
仿佛随时会飘起来飞走。
Something that could just pick up and float away.
于是我问：“他怎么样了？”
So I said, "How's he doing?"
她说：“我们也不太清楚。
And she said, "We don't really know.
他们什么都告诉我们。
They can't tell us anything.
他的氧气水平会上升。
His oxygen goes up.
他的氧气水平又会下降。”
His oxygen dips down."
我站在那里的时候就知道，那是我儿子的弟弟，我愿意做任何事，愿意冒任何险，只为了让那个婴儿活下来，为了我的儿子。因为如果那个婴儿没能挺过来，他在这个新家庭里所感受到的所有幸福也会随之消散。
And I knew as I was standing there, that was my son's baby brother, and I would've done anything, I would've risked anything to keep that baby alive for my son because if the baby didn't make it, all of the happiness that he was experiencing in this new family would float away, too.
我能做的只是和安吉拉坐在一起，试着让她开心一点。
And all I could do was sit down with Angela and try to cheer her up a little bit.
我注意到，在这种情况下，是她先向你伸出了手。
It strikes me that in this situation, she is extending a hand to you.
而你也在回应她。
You're extending it.
你们俩其实是在一起面对这件事，但你们也没有明说那些难处，对吧？
Both of you are sort of in this together, but you're also not talking explicitly about anything, about the hard stuff, right?
你们当时在跟对方说什么呢？
What were you saying to each other?
我记得看着他的脸，戴着那个巨大的太空头盔，我说：“我几乎看不清他长什么样。”
I remember looking at his face covered with this giant space helmet and saying, "I can barely see what he looks like.
我们甚至都不知道他爸爸是谁？
Do we even know who his father is?"
天哪。
Geez.
跟我说说，安吉拉笑了吧。
And tell me Angela laughed.
她笑了。
She laughed.
当然。
Of course.
好的，我喜欢这个。
Okay, love that.
她笑了，所以我想，"哦，好吧，我可以做到。"
She laughed, and so I thought, "Oh, okay, I can do this."
"我能让她笑。
"I can make her laugh.
我能让气氛轻松一点。"
I can lighten things up a little bit."
这不一定是个沉重的时刻。
This doesn't have to be a heavy moment.
也许我的角色是反着来的。
Maybe my role is to do the opposite.
你们俩在医院病房里有没有过那种时刻，就是觉得，"为什么克里斯让我带香草拿铁？
Did you two have a moment in that hospital room where you were like, "Why did Chris ask me to bring the vanilla latte?
为什么是我？"
Why me?"
你有没有过那种时刻，还是没有？
Did you have that kind of moment or no?
我觉得有。
I think so.
我觉得那有点奇怪。
I think it was a little weird.
是有点奇怪。
It's a little weird.
他难道不能问问她的朋友什么的吗？
Couldn't he have asked one of her friends or something?
有意思的是——
It's interesting-
对我来说，他的举动很有意思。
... to me, his move.
我知道。
I know.
我朋友当时就问，她朋友都去哪儿了？
My friends were like, "Where are her friends?"
我也说不准。
I think, I don't know.
那天他们可能都在上班吧。
They must have been at work that day.
我也不太清楚——
I don't-
……
...
我不太确定。
I don't know.
之前你对安吉拉的所有印象，都是来自亚历山大跟你说的话、你自己的观察或者主观猜测，但现在你真的见到安吉拉了，而且是跟她相处时间最久的一次——
You had all these ideas about Angela, based on what Alexander told you, your perceptions, or your projections, but now you're meeting Angela, really spending the most-
这次你在病房里陪了她这么久，她刚经历了非常痛苦的事，而且她的宝宝现在还没脱离危险，对吧？
... extended period of time you've ever spent with her in this hospital room, where she's just gone through something extremely traumatic, and in fact, her baby is still struggling, right?
我想——
I guess-
我是说，她几个小时前才刚生完孩子。
I mean, she gave birth just hours before.
那安吉拉的真实情况是怎样的呢？
What was the reality of Angela, right?
你之前有那么多想法——坐在你旁边的这个女人，她的真实情况是怎样的？
You'd had all this i-- what was the reality of the woman sitting next to you?
她人特别好。
She's so sweet.
她很聪明。
She's smart.
她很漂亮。
She's beautiful.
亚历山大说的那些优点，她全都具备。
She's all of the things that Alexander said she was.
而实际情况是，她对我毫无威胁。
And the reality was, she was no threat to me.
她爱我的儿子。
She loved my son.
她并不想把他从我身边带走。
She didn't want to take him away from me.
而且在某种程度上，我觉得我欠她一份信任。
And I owed her, in a way, I owed her my trust.
我们没有明说这件事。
And we didn't talk about it explicitly.
到现在我们也没有明说。
We still haven't talked about it explicitly.
但我知道，他们之间有联系。
But what I knew was that there was connection.
她和我儿子之间有一种联系。
There was connection between her and my son.
我和她之间有那种联系。说到底，这就是家人，哪怕它看起来和你想象的不一样。
There was connection between her and I. And that's ultimately what family is, even if it doesn't look like what you think it's going to look like.
你离开医院后，你和安吉拉的关系有变化吗？
After you left the hospital, did your relationship with Angela change?
我不知道。
I don't know.
你有没有在接送孩子的时候多待一会儿？
Did you sort of linger at the drop-off or the pick-up?
你们有没有多聊几句？
Did you talk more?
你们的关系有没有变，如果有，是怎么变的？
Did your relationship change, and if so, how?
孩子康复了，但克里斯没有打电话告诉我这件事。
The baby recovered, and I did not get a call from Chris to tell me that.
我是从亚历山大，也就是我儿子那里知道的——
I learned from Alexander, from my son-
哇。
Wow
……宝宝好多了，已经回家了。
... that the baby was better, and he was at home.
一切都很好。
Everything was fine.
我当时想：“好吧，我们又回到原来的样子了。”
And I thought, "Okay, we're back to the way things were.
我又是最后一个知道的。”
I'm the last to know."
但对我来说，内心其实有些东西已经变了。
But internally, for me, something had changed.
我觉得我对整个情况更坦然了。
And I think I just felt more comfortable with the whole situation.
我和她相处得更自在了，然后我们两家的关系也确实更紧密了一些。
I felt more comfortable with her, and then our families did get a little bit more integrated.
我不再抗拒让她参加家长会了。
I wasn't resistant to having her at a parent-teacher conference.
如果她在足球或棒球比赛现场，我会觉得更自在。
I felt more comfortable if she was there at soccer or at baseball.
所以，我觉得我可能没把这件事说清楚。
And so, I don't think I'm articulating this very well.
不，你说得很清楚。
No, you are.
而且我欣赏你所说的，这不是迪士尼或贺卡电影里的情节，突然你们就一起过圣诞节，你和安吉拉成了最好的朋友。
And what I appreciate about what you're saying is it wasn't the Disney or Hallmark version, where suddenly you're all doing Christmas together, and you and Angela are best friends.
那不是真的。
That's not true.
对。
No.
对。
No.
这更像是——
It's much more-
对，我们不怎么一起出去玩。
Yeah, we don't hang out.
你们不一起出去玩。
You don't hang out.
这更微妙一些。
It's much more subtle.
改变的是你内心的某些东西，我想了解这种改变是什么，以及它对你产生了什么影响。
The thing that's changed is something in you, and I want to understand what that change is and what that's done for you.
所以接下来的问题是，丹妮丝·瑞安，现在家庭对你来说意味着什么？
And so the question that follows is, what does family mean to you now, Denise Ryan?
哎呀，这可难住我了。
Oh, boy.
就是个小问题，你知道的。
Just a small, you know.
唉。
Ugh.
其实整个故事就是你对这个问题的回答，但我想现在直接问你。
This whole story is sort of your answer to that question, but I want to ask it to you directly now.
这对你来说意味着什么？
What does it mean to you?
因为现在亚历山大多大了？
Because now Alexander is how old?
哦，他24岁了。
Oh, he's 24.
他24岁了。
He's 24.
好。
Okay.
今天，我们坐在这里，现在家庭对你来说意味着什么？
Today, as we sit here, what does family mean to you now?
你是怎么想的？
How do you think about it?
家庭能不能存在于我幻想的那种白色栅栏之外呢？
Can family exist outside of the white picket fence fantasy that I had?
可以的。
It does.
确实可以存在于那种幻想之外。
It does exist outside of that.
有时候它就像黑暗中抛来的一根绳子，你可以抓住它。
Sometimes it's like a rope thrown in the darkness that you can grab onto.
它不一定是我父母离婚时我以为失去的那种家庭——
It doesn't have to be what I thought I lost when my parents split up-
……或者我和克里斯分手时失去的那种。
... or when Chris and I split up.
它可以有不同的形式和模样，而且我觉得这些年社会的变化也帮助我接受了这一点，因为家庭可以有各种各样的表达方式，甚至朋友也可以成为家人。
It can take different forms and different shapes, and I think the way society has changed, too, over the years has helped me integrate that because there are so many different ways in which family can be expressed, even through friends as family.
我不得不变得更开放，去不同的地方寻找它。
And I had to become more open to that, and find it in different places-
……
...
并接受它的所有不完美。
and embrace it in all of its imperfections.
我认为爱可以超越离婚。
I think that love can survive divorce.
我知道对我来说就是这样。
I know it did for me.
丹尼斯·瑞安，非常感谢你今天和我聊天。
Denise Ryan, thank you so much for talking to me today.
我真的很感激。
I really appreciate it.
非常感谢你，安娜。
Thank you so much, Anna.
这真的非常愉快。
It's been an absolute pleasure.
虽然流了几滴眼泪，但没关系。
A few tears, but that's okay.
如果你想阅读启发这次对话的丹尼斯·瑞安的《现代爱情》散文，它的标题是《请像我一样爱我的儿子》。
If you want to read Denise Ryan's Modern Love essay that inspired this conversation, it's called "Please Love My Son As I Do."
我们会把它放在节目说明里。
We'll put it in the show notes.
《现代爱情》团队包括戴维斯·兰德、艾丽莎·古铁雷斯、林恩·莱维、雷瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。
The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alisa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.
本期节目由雷瓦·戈德堡和戴维斯·兰德制作。
This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg and Davis Land.
由林恩·莱维编辑。
It was edited by Lynn Levy.
我们的混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯。
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
我们的节目由Maddy Masello、Nick Bittman、Kyle Grandillo和Samantha Winter录制。
Our show was recorded by Maddy Masello, Nick Bittman, Kyle Grandillo, and Samantha Winter.
特别感谢Brooke Minters。
Special thanks to Brooke Minters.
本期节目的原创音乐由Marian Lozano、Diane Wong和Dan Powell创作。
Original music in this episode by Marian Lozano, Diane Wong, and Dan Powell.
Dan还为我们创作了主题曲。
Dan also composed our theme music.
《现代爱情》专栏由Daniel Jones编辑，Mia Lee是《现代爱情》项目的编辑。
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
如果你想向《纽约时报》投稿文章或微型爱情故事，我们的节目说明中有具体指南。
If you'd like to submit an essay or a Tiny Love Story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes.
我是Anna Martin。
I'm Anna Martin.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
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