他是同性恋。她是异性恋。他们是新婚夫妇。

你好。

Hi.

我是索拉纳·莱恩。

I'm Solana Pine.

我是《纽约时报》视频部门的总监。

I'm the director of video at The New York Times.

多年来，我的团队制作了大量视频，带您更贴近重大新闻时刻，这些视频由《纽约时报》记者制作，凭借专业能力帮助您理解正在发生的事情。

For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on.

现在，我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用程序的“观看”标签页中。

Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.

这是一个专门的视频频道，您可以完全信任其中的内容。

It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.

那里所有的视频都免费向所有人开放。

All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.

您无需成为订阅用户。

You don't have to be a subscriber.

下载《纽约时报》应用程序开始观看。

Download The New York Times app to start watching.

爱现在，也爱明天。

Love now and tomorrow.

投入其中

Fall in

昨晚的爱。

love last night.

比任何东西都更强大。

Is stronger than anything.

为了爱，爱。

For the love Love.

我比任何事物都更爱你。

And I love you more than anything.

爱依然存在。

There's still love.

爱。

Love.

来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。

From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.

这是《现代爱情》。

This is Modern Love.

每周，我们都会为您带来关于爱情、欲望、心碎以及关系中所有纷乱的故事。

Every week, we bring you stories about love, lust, heartbreak, and all the messiness of relationships.

通常情况下，这些对话来自《现代爱情》专栏。

Now typically, these conversations come from the Modern Love column.

但今天，我们的灵感来自报纸的婚礼誓言版块，我们将与一对新婚夫妇雅各布·霍夫和萨曼莎·格林斯通交谈。

But today, we were inspired by the vows section of the paper, and we're talking to a pair of newlyweds, Jacob Hoff and Samantha Greenstone.

他们的婚礼细节立刻引起了我的注意。

Right away, the details of their wedding stuck out to me.

比如，雅各布选择走进礼堂时播放的那首歌。

Like, for example, the song Jacob chose to walk down the aisle to.

我想以《歌剧魅影》的方式出场。

I wanted to come down to the Phantom of the Opera.

那里有个瞬间，那个女人尖叫了一声，然后一切就结束了。

There there's this moment this woman just screams, and it's like, done.

结束了。

Done.

结束了。

Done.

结束了。

Done.

结束了。

Done.

我当时就想，我戴上面具出场时，也得是这种感觉。

And I was like, that's what needs to happen as I appear in a mask.

然后萨曼莎也想为婚礼加入自己的创意。

And then Samantha also wanted to put her own spin on the wedding.

我超爱《泰坦尼克号》。

I love Titanic.

曾经我想把一艘沉没的泰坦尼克号放在我们的婚礼蛋糕上，但我妈和婚礼策划师说不行。

There was a point where I wanted to have a sinking Titanic on top of our wedding cake, but my mother and the wedding planner said, no.

你难道真想在婚礼当天让成千上万人丧生吗？

You ought to have an event where thousands of people died on your wedding day.

而且我

And I

我当时就想，这其实也是一个最美丽的爱情故事。

was like, I mean, it's also like the most beautiful love story.

显然，他们的品味很一致，但他们其实是一对不太可能的组合，因为雅各布是同性恋，而萨曼莎是异性恋。

Clearly, their tastes are aligned, but they're actually an unlikely pair because Jacob is gay and Samantha is straight.

很多人不理解他们的关系，但他们把这段感情描述为浪漫而特别的。

A lot of people don't understand their relationship, but they describe their connection as romantic and special.

他们称之为灵魂羁绊。

They call it a soul tie.

当你和对的人在一起时，这种纽带会将你们牢牢地系在一起，形成一种无法打破的联系。

When you are with the right person, this thing is tethering you guys so firmly together that it is an unbreakable bond.

我觉得如果人们只是去寻找那些能让他们在这种方式下感到安心的伴侣，我不知道。

And I think if people just did look for the partners that made them feel secure in that way, I don't know.

我认为这是爱的秘密。

I think that it's like the secret to love.

萨曼莎和雅各布现在已经在一起七年多了。

Samantha and Jacob have been together for over seven years now.

但我想知道，他们的关系对他们各自的自我认同意味着什么？他们又是如何走到婚姻这一步的？

But I wanted to know what does their relationship mean for their individual identities, and what did it take for them to come together in a marriage?

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

理论上，我知道这种事情可能发生在任何家庭中。

In theory, I knew that this kind of thing can happen in any family.

任何人的表亲都可能在密谋谋杀。

Anyone's first cousin could be plotting murder.

这里是UCE4735，今天是。

This is UCE4735, and today is.

正直的公民总是被发现是隐藏的罪犯。

Upstanding citizens are always turning out to be secret criminals.

与艾伦·盖森的循环式表述。

Cyclic wording with Alan Gessen.

我甚至不认为我表弟艾伦是个正直的人。

And I wouldn't even call my cousin Alan an upstanding citizen.

你知道，我的客户都是贩毒集团级别的家伙。

You know, my clients are cartel level guys.

他们都是狠角色。

They're all badasses.

他们他们他们，但知道是一回事，有没有更长久的方式来做这件事？

They're they they But it's one thing to know There's a more permanent way to do Is this?

是的。

Yeah.

再不一样一点。

One more different.

永久的。

Permanent.

还有另一件事要

And another thing to

理解。

understand.

艾伦杀了我。

Alan murder me.

结果比我想象的要糟糕得多。

It ended up being so much worse than I thought I knew.

价格嘛，我觉得还算合理。

The price is, I mean, a bit reasonable.

好的。

Okay.

但这值得吗？艾伦到底在想什么？

But would it worth What the hell was Alan thinking?

比如说，我有点生气。

Like, let just say that I'm a little bit pissed off.

你

You

知道吗

know what

在说什么吗？

saying?

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我明白了。

I get it.

是的。

Yeah.

由Serial Productions和《纽约时报》出品，我是艾姆·格森，欢迎收听《傻瓜》。

From Serial Productions and The New York Times, I'm Em Gessen, and this is The Idiot.

在您收听播客的任何平台收听本节目。

Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

好的。

Okay.

雅各布和萨曼莎，我必须知道你们俩是怎么认识的。

Jacob and Samantha, I gotta know how the two of you met.

我们在音乐剧《屋顶上的小提琴手》的试镜中认识的。

We met at a callback for the musical Fiddler on the Roof.

当时我们都留下来等待某个角色的通知，他们把弗鲁米塞拉这个角色带了过来，这是一个噩梦场景中的幽灵。

And so we both were sticking around for a part, and they bring the part in for Frumiserra, who is this ghost in a nightmare sequence.

现场一片死寂，然后我突然听到门外传来声音，心想：哇。

And it's just, like, dead silent, and then I just hear this through the door, and I'm like, woah.

那是谁？

Who was that?

有谁会这么大胆？

And what person could be that ballsy?

这个人根本不在乎，我被迷住了。

This person literally didn't give a fuck, and I was enamored.

是我。

It was me.

我立刻就知道那是她。

And I, like, immediately knew that was her.

我就是怎么知道的？

I just How you know?

怎么

How did

你知道的？

you know?

我当时就像有了激光般的专注力。

I just had this, like, laser vision.

而我看起来像个疯子。

And I looked like a cackler.

是的。

Yeah.

我直接冲上去说，如果他们没给你这个角色，那他们就疯了。

And I just ran up, and I was like, if they don't give you that part, they're crazy.

那一刻，就像一位巨星遇见了自己的粉丝。

And it was kind of like a diva meeting a fan at that moment.

她当时说，谢谢你。

Like, she was like, you know, thank you.

而且

And

我就是需要这样一个击掌，来让我知道，我对这件事感觉很好。

I need I needed just this, like, high five to let me know that, like, I I feel good about this.

所以，能有这样的再次肯定，让我觉得：好吧，我确实做得不错，这真是太棒了。

So it was amazing to have this, like, reiteration that, okay, like, you you did a good job.

萨曼莎，你和雅各布之间的关系，除了友谊之外，还有别的感觉吗？

Samantha, did your connection with Jacob feel like anything other than friendship?

这确实让我感到神圣，是一种我以前从未与任何人经历过的感受。

It definitely felt sacred, and it felt like something that I had never experienced with anyone before.

但这也让我感到困惑，因为我知道雅各布是同性恋。

But it was also confusing because I knew that Jacob was gay.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我就想，好吧。

So I was like, okay.

就像我感受到的那种连接，这是我能描述它的最好方式。

Like, I'm feeling like this, like, connection of that Like, that's the best way I can describe it.

我根本无法用语言表达出来。

I can't even put it into words.

我只能用那个声音来表达。

I can only put it into that sound.

但这很困惑，因为我想，他是个同性恋。

And but it was confusing because I'm like, well, he's gay.

所以这可能吗？

So can it be that?

但感觉就是这样。

But it felt like that.

是的。

Yeah.

雅各布，你当时会如何描述自己的性取向？

Jacob, how would you have described your sexuality at the time?

那真的很有趣。

That was that was interesting.

内心深处，我知道自己是同性恋，并且我只向一些我觉得可以信赖的人透露过。

Internally, I I knew I was gay, and I shared that with select people who I felt comfortable with.

但我还没有向家人透露过，而且我有些回避，也害怕出柜。

There was still I had not shared that with my family yet, and there was some avoidance and some fear of coming out.

有些我并不觉得能安心与之分享的人。

And there were certain people that I didn't feel comfortable sharing it with.

所以大多数时候，我选择对这些事保持沉默。

So I kind of just kept quiet about things most of the time.

但像萨曼莎这样我的密友，我就会向她倾诉。

Or but but to somebody like Samantha, who was my close friend, I would confide that in.

所以当时确实是这样。

And so it was yeah.

由于还没有完全向所有人出柜，也没有活出真实的自己，我内心充满了挣扎。

There was there was a lot of sort of inner turmoil with that having not fully come out to everyone yet and living the the truth yet.

她出现后，反而加剧了我的困惑，让我忍不住想：等等，这到底是怎么回事。

She comes in and, like, adds to the confusion because I'm just like, now wait a minute.

现在我觉得，这个人真奇怪。

Now I'm like, like, this person, it's weird.

这种联系很特别，也许它超越了单纯的友谊。

Like, this connection is unique, and maybe it does go beyond just friendship.

当时你是怎么看待这段友谊的？

How were you sort of processing this this friendship

是的。

Yeah.

当时？

At the time?

我记得，第一个意识到有些不一样的迹象，是在我们第二次或第三次见面时，我们一起去了餐厅。

You know, the first indication that something was different, I remember, I think it was, like, the second or third time we hung out, and we went to a restaurant together.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我记得，准备出门时的兴奋，还有去接她的时候。

And I remember, like, the excitement of getting ready and then going in, like, picking her up.

我当时就想，天啊。

And I was like, god.

这感觉像是一次约会。

This feels like a date.

这种感觉就像一个人要和某人约会时那样兴奋不已。

Like, this feels the way somebody would be, like, giddy about going on a date with somebody.

我当时有一种奇怪的紧张感，完全把我搞懵了。

And there was, like, this weird nervousness in me, and it was throwing me for a loop.

但我从未想过要表达出来或进一步发展，因为我不想破坏当时的关系。

But I never I never considered saying something or taking it anywhere further because I didn't wanna disrupt what was going on.

你对萨曼莎有好感吗？

Were you were you attracted to Samantha?

我对萨曼莎有好感。

I was attracted to Samantha.

但正如我所描述的，我们之间的吸引力如此特别，这是一种灵魂层面的连接，是对她这个人、她的本质的深深吸引。

But I as I talk about the way and I continue to to talk about the way our attraction works, it's such a soul connection, and it's such a it's such an attraction to who she is and the person that she is and her entity.

而且这种感觉并不是那种近乎欲望的层面。

And it's not in that it's not in that sort of almost lustful sense.

不是那种对身体部位的吸引，或者我被男性吸引的方式，和我被萨曼莎吸引的方式截然不同。

It's not in that the body parts or the way I'm attracted to men feels very different than the way I am attracted to Samantha.

她的吸引是一口深井，而我被男性吸引的感觉则非常浅薄、表面。

And that her hers is a much it's a very deep well, and the way I'm attracted to men feels very shallow and surface.

萨曼莎，当你和雅各布进行这次可能是约会、也可能不是约会的相处时，你有没有感受到同样的紧张、兴奋和雀跃？

Samantha, when you and Jacob were going on this maybe date, maybe not a date, did you feel that same, like, nervous, fizzy, giddiness?

是的。

Yeah.

我有。

I do.

我当时有。

I did.

而且，他请我吃饭，确实让我觉得这件事有点特别。

And, mean, like, he paid for my food, and it did kinda feel like it had this, like, special thing about it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但感觉我好像被追求着，但我也觉得，好吧。

But, like, it felt like I was, like, kind of being courted, but also, I'm like, okay.

我正被这位朋友追求着。

I'm being courted by this this friend.

这个同性恋。

This homo.

这个同性恋。

This homo.

我的意思是，我想问一下，

I mean, I wanna ask, like,

对你来说，萨曼莎，这时候你开始对雅各布产生你认为是浪漫的感情了吗？

for you, Samantha, like, you're starting to feel what what you would consider, like, romantic feelings towards Jacob at this time.

这么说对吗？

Is that is that true to say?

是的

Yeah.

我觉得我当时确实在感受这些情绪，但我也很谨慎，对这件事进展得很慢。

I think I was feeling these feelings, but I was also very guarded and really taking it slow with this.

然后，当然，你再加入同性这个因素，我就想，好吧，这不可能是那样，但这确实有些特别。

And then, of course, you add the gay element to it, and I'm like, okay, this can't be that, but this is something.

我想我只是知道，这段关系太特别了，我不想搞砸任何事，所以我愿意耐心等待，看事情会如何发展。

And I guess I'm just going I knew that it was so special that I didn't wanna mess anything up, and I was okay with having to be patient and seeing how it played out.

我不知道。

I don't know.

那些对你朋友雅各布逐渐增长的情感，开始让你觉得无法忽视了吗？

Did these feelings that were building for Jacob start to feel like you you couldn't ignore them?

就像，你觉得自己必须采取行动了吗？

Like, you kinda had to act on them?

在我们成为朋友大约十八个月后，我决定给雅各布发条信息，问他是否对我抱有超越友谊的感情。

About eighteen months into our friendship, I decided to text Jacob to ask if he had more feelings than just a friendship for me.

你是怎么决定采用这种方式的？

How did you decide to do that approach?

你用什么方法来开启这段对话的？我觉得你们俩都一直很害怕面对这件事，不敢正视它。

What was your what was your method of sort of opening up this conversation that I would say both of you had been pretty terrified to to to begin, you know, this to look this thing in the face.

你做了什么，萨曼莎？

What did you what did you do, Samantha?

我就是直接给他发了一条短信，这可能是理论上最糟糕的做法。

I literally just sent him a text message, which is probably, like, in theory, the worst way to do it.

我当时处于一种状态，只想把生活中的不确定性彻底清除掉。

I was at a place where I was just like, I need to cleanse the uncertainty from my life.

不管那意味着什么，即使他对我没有超出朋友的感情，至少问题说开了，我有了答案，再也不用继续忍受这种煎熬了。

Whatever that means, even if he doesn't feel more feelings for me than a friend, You know, at least it's out there, and I have an answer, and I don't have to live with this anymore.

我只是觉得，这件事必须从我内心彻底清除。

I was just like, it needs to be purged from my being.

但我们彼此太了解了，所以我心想，好吧。

But we knew each other so well that I was like, okay.

他一定会明白我想表达的意思。

This he's gonna just understand what I'm trying to say here.

所以我给他发了条短信，问：你有没有对我产生过朋友之外的感情？

So I texted him, and I was like, do you ever feel more than just a friend for me?

雅各布，我现在想转向你。

Jacob, I wanna switch to you right now.

当你收到萨曼莎的短信时，你在做什么？你是怎么反应的？

What were you doing when you got Samantha's text, and how did you react?

我记得看到短信时，有两种非常明确的感觉同时出现。

I remember looking at it, and two very distinct feelings happened.

一种是，当然，我确实有这样的感觉，我简直不敢相信她竟然主动开口，而且在我们俩都回避了十八个月后，她还有勇气说出来。

One was, of course, I feel this way, and I can't believe she's taking the initiative to say it and being bold enough to say it after we've both been beating around the bush for eighteen months.

另一种是巨大的恐惧，担心这会毁掉我们的友谊，因为我无法和她建立恋爱关系。

And the other was immense fear that this was going to ruin our friendship because I wasn't going to be capable of having a relationship with her.

然后我给她回了条短信，问：你这话是什么意思？

And then I sent her a text back saying, what do you mean?

这太蠢了。

Which was the stupidest thing.

我当时就想，天啊。

And I was like, oh, fuck.

那个词只是我在拖延。

The word that was like me just stalling.

然后，是的。

And then Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

两分钟后，我想，我刚说了什么？

Like, two minutes later, I'm like, what did I just say?

这太傻了。

Like, that's so dumb.

于是我回复说，当然，我对你的感觉超越了朋友，我愿意试试看这段关系会走向何方。

And so then I said, of course, I feel more for you than a friend, and I'm willing to try and see where this goes.

我的意思是，你最大的顾虑是什么？

I mean, what was your biggest holdup?

我猜你可能有些担心自己在身体上或性方面是否能表现好。

I'd imagine there was maybe some fear around whether you could perform physically or sexually.

我觉得我只是知道这会是其中一部分，而正是这一点让我觉得自己不够格，或者觉得这件事会失败。

I think I just knew that that was going to be a part of it, and that's where I felt I was inadequate or that where this thing was gonna fail.

因为我知道其他所有方面都会顺利。

Because I knew every other aspect of it would work.

我的意思是，我们可以一起待上好几个小时，做任何其他事情，但这一点就像是水管里的一个堵点。

I mean, we we can hang out for umpteen hours and do everything else, but that was the one kink in the hose.

在这些文字交流之后，你们第一次见面时，你能告诉我，你们有没有明确提到这一点？

That first meeting after these text exchange, like, tell me, did you explicitly acknowledge it?

在经历了这一切之后，你们第一次面对面见面时，都聊了些什么？

What were the conversations that you had when you met up in person for the first time after all of this?

那就像房间里的一头大象，大家都心知肚明。

It was like it was like an elephant in the room that, like, okay.

现在我们要试试这种方式，但我们再也没有提起过这件事。

Now we're gonna try it this way, but we never said another word.

是的。

Yeah.

就像我们继续像我向他表白之前那样相处一样。

It was like we just went on existing the way we would have before I had approached him.

当时她和一个朋友住在一起。

We were she was living with a friend at the time.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她们俩——我们和那个朋友聊到很晚，一起闲逛，然后她有自己的房间。

And they they we were up chatting till late with the friend and hanging out, and then she had her own room there.

所以我们只是进去睡了，我之前已经和她多次在同一张床上纯友谊地睡过。

And so we just went in I just we had platonically slept in the same bed many times.

所以我们只是说，好吧。

So we were just like, okay.

我们要去睡觉了。

We're, like, gonna go to bed.

像老年人一样休息。

Retire like the old

手机。

phone.

是的。

Yeah.

事情就这么发生了。

And it just it just happened that way.

是的。

Yeah.

即使门关着，你们俩在同一间卧室里，你们也没谈过这种关系性质的变化吗？

Even when, like, the door was closed and you guys were, like, in the same bedroom together and you didn't say, like you didn't talk about this sort of changed nature of the relationship?

我觉得我们只是躺在那儿看马克思兄弟的电影。

I think we were just laying there watching, like, a Marx Brothers movie.

我觉得是的。

I think so.

我想我只是凑过去亲了你一下。

And and I think I just, like, leaned over and kissed you.

对。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

然后事情就从那里发展下去了？

And I think it just Went from there?

从那以后就变得很放纵了。

Got raunchy from there.

我的意思是，那个初吻感觉怎么样？

I mean, how did it how did that feel, that first kiss?

第一件事就是，天啊。

The first thing was like, oh my gosh.

我真的不敢相信这真的发生了。

I can't believe this is actually happening.

但接着我想，那我们到底在等什么？

But then it felt like like, so what were we waiting for?

为什么我们要等十八个月才来到这个如此自然、美妙的时刻？我的意思是，那根本一点都不尴尬。

Why why did we wait eighteen months to come to this very easy, amazing place where I mean, there there it didn't feel awkward.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那感觉一点都不不舒服。

It didn't feel, like, uncomfortable.

它只是感觉我们一直都很契合。

It just felt like we'd always kind of fit together.

是的。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

我以前从未有过这种感觉。

Which I had never felt before.

那种恐惧，我的意思是，所有那些在那一刻都消失了。

That fear I mean, all of that just slipped away in that moment.

一切都变得很自然，这里没有任何压力，即使有什么事情没发生也没关系，因为这就是我们，我们的关系。

And it was just like normal, and it felt like there's no pressure here if something doesn't hap like, it was just because it was us and our relationship.

有解脱的感觉吗？

Was there relief?

你们的关系之前一直充满困惑。

There'd been so much confusion about your relationship.

这个晚上之后，有解脱的感觉吗？

Was there relief after this night?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

完全如此。

Totally.

仅仅知道它能够成功运作，就是巨大的解脱。

Just the fact that it could successfully work was major relief.

在我们关系后续的发展中，过了这段蜜月期后，开始出现更多的问题，怀疑、不确定和恐惧悄然回归。

Now down the road in our relationship, things started to get more there there after that honeymoon period, there became doubts and uncertainties and fears that crept back in.

因为我觉得，仅仅是这段关系的持久性，还有那种——好吧。

Because I think the long just the longevity of it and the the sort of, okay.

我们进入了共同生活的阶段，真正开始共同构建生活，这带来了一套新的疑问：这一切是否可持续？

We're moving to this phase where we live together and, like, we're really creating a life together, imposed a new set of, like, is this something maintainable?

这一切是否真的能持续一生？

Is this something that can really last a lifetime?

我想萨曼莎曾说过，她担心自己会让我远离，你知道的，和男人在一起的生活。

And and for I think Samantha has said that it she was worried she was taking me away from, you know, being with a man.

但我对萨曼莎非常坚定，只是始终存在一种恐惧，担心我无法顺利走过结婚、生子，以及那些直婚关系中常见的那些人生阶段。

And I was very resolved with Samantha, but there was always that fear that I would wouldn't be able to just successfully go through the boxes of, like, getting married and having a child and all those things that come with a straight relationship.

我的世界彻底动摇了。

Like, my world was shook.

广告后，雅各布试图在与一位直女的关系中，面对想要出柜的挑战。

After the break, Jacob tries to navigate the challenges of wanting to come out of the closet while in a relationship with a straight woman.

接下来就为您呈现。

That's coming up.

所以，雅各布，在你和萨曼莎那晚共度之后，你对自身的性取向看法有改变吗？

So Jacob, after that night that you and Samantha slept together, did it change the way you were thinking about your sexuality?

你有没有想过：‘我是个同性恋者。’

Were you like, I'm queer.

我是个双性恋者。

I'm bi.

那晚有没有改变你对自己的认知？

Like, did this night change your self assessment?

没有。

No.

我并没有真正重新评估自己。

I didn't really reassess myself.

我基本上就是觉得，这就是我生活中的现状。

I I basically just was like, this is my situation in life.

我和她在一起，她是我最好的朋友。

I'm in this relationship with her, and she's my best friend.

而我依然清楚自己的身份是什么。

And that I still knew my identity to be my identity.

我想，这正是我们双方产生困惑的根源。

And I think that's where the confusions set in for both of us.

再多谈谈这一点。

Talk more about that.

嗯，就像我说的，一开始有一段蜜月期，然后我们开始面临很多疑虑，心想：这到底怎么行得通？

Well, I think like I said, there was a there was a honeymoon period, and then there was a period where we faced a lot of doubts and were like, how is this working?

我该怎么维持，我们又该怎么维持这段关系？

How am I how are we maintaining this?

如果从萨曼莎的角度看，我是个女人，那我是如何让你感到满足的呢？

How are you fulfilled by me if I'm a woman from Samantha's angle, I think?

是的。

Mhmm.

这让我感到畏惧，因为我找不到合适的词来表达。

And it was daunting because I didn't have the words for that.

我没有那种语言工具或技巧，因为我的一生都像我说的那样，我的默认状态就像是忧郁的马龙·白兰度或詹姆斯·迪恩。

I didn't have the a, I didn't have the verbal tools or skills because my whole life was like I say I I'm like my default is like a brooding Marlon Brando or James Dean.

就是，我就是不想说。

Like, I just I'm like, no.

而她却想谈论一切，把所有事情都摊开来说。

And she and she wants to talk about everything and get it out there.

但我那时还没有学会如何表达这些。

And I didn't have the words for that yet.

那是你第一次和女人发生关系吗？

Was that the first time you'd had sex with a woman?

是的。

Yes.

我在高中时曾与女性有过一些不成功的互动，那时我正在探索自己的性取向。

I had had, you know, little interactions with women that were unsuccessful through high school and just try when I was trying to figure out my sexuality.

最终，在大学时，我达到了一个意识到这一切永远不会改变的阶段。

And eventually, in college, I got to a point where I realized this is never gonna change.

你总觉得这并不是真正的你。

You you think this isn't really me.

我不是真的同性恋。

I'm not really gay.

我、我、我可以改变这一切。

I'm I'm I can change this.

这只不过是一种，嗯，不是一时的阶段，而是一种我拥有的东西，只要我足够专注，我就能改变它。

This is just some sort of, like, not a phase, but something that I have that if I concentrate hard enough, I will change this.

对。

And Right.

最终，你会成长到某个时刻，意识到这就是真实的自己。

Eventually, there gets to be a point where you grow up enough and you go, this just is who I am.

我不被女性吸引，这没什么问题。

And I'm I don't I'm not attracted to women, and that's fine.

我会接受这一点。

And I'm gonna just accept that.

但我同时也担心家人会接受不了。

But I also was worried about my family accepting it.

我最担心的是父亲那边的家人，因为他们是在非常保守的基督教环境中长大的。

I was mostly worried about my dad's side of the family accepting it because they it was a very, like, conservative Christian upbringing.

他们曾说过一些话，比如我去的教堂里，牧师曾举着一份请愿书，要求会众全体签名反对同性婚姻，当时同性婚姻正在争取合法化。

And they had said thing I mean, I went to a church where the pastor held up a a petition to get everybody in the congregation to sign against gay marriage when they were trying to legalize it.

那你父亲本人呢？

What about your father specifically?

他是怎么对待你的？

How was he treating you?

你知道，小时候他就曾猜想过。

You know, growing up, he had speculated.

他开车送我去学校时，我会坐在他旁边，用便携式DVD播放器看《洛基恐怖秀》。

And, I mean, he would drive me to school, and I'd be sitting next to him in the car with my portable DVD player watching the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

他看着电影，嘲笑它，问：这是什么玩意儿？

And he's, like, looking at this and making fun of it and being like, what is this?

然后还说：这什么同性恋垃圾？

And and and then What is this gay shit?

是的。

Yeah.

真的。

Literally.

这简直是最同性恋的东西了。

It's like the gayest thing ever.

然后我就说：爸，这可是我世界上最喜欢的东西啊。

And then and I'm like, you dad, this is, like, my favorite thing in the world.

童年时有一些时刻，我清楚地记得自己突然僵住，而他则直接质问我。

And there was there were, like, these moments in childhood where, like, I distinctly remember, like, seizing up and him, like, confronting me about it.

因此，我的人生中有一些决定性的时刻，让我意识到：如果我是同性恋，我就不会被接纳，不会被当作正常人，也不会成为那个风光无限的人。

And so there were these really, like, definitive moments in my life where I'm like, I'm not going to be accepted or be normal or be, you know, the hotshot guy if I'm a gay.

我真的很想成为那个风光无限的人，获得成功，而这种想法让我很困扰。

And I wanted to be the hotshot guy and and have success and, you know, that was troubling.

我的意思是，雅各布，当你内心有一个无法否认的真相，却被家人、教会和整个社区告诉你这是错误的，这种感觉真的非常痛苦。

I mean, Jacob, that's really painful to feel like there's this truth that you cannot deny, and you're surrounded by family, by a church, by a community that's telling you that that is the wrong way to be.

要接受这一点，一定经历了一段极其艰难的过程。

That must have been a really difficult acceptance to to reach.

这真的很难接受，因为那时我甚至陷入了更黑暗的想法：这件事不会改变，除非我跟某个人非常亲近，否则我绝不会向任何人透露关于自己的这类事。

It was a really hard pill to swallow because I think at that point, I went into even a darker idea, which is just like, this isn't gonna change, but I'm unless I'm so comfortable with the person, I'm just not gonna share anything about myself that way.

所以，过着对这么多人隐瞒的生活，真的很艰难。

So that was hard to just kind of live this closeted life to so many.

萨曼莎，我想知道你，雅各布对家人隐瞒性取向这件事，有没有让你对你们的关系产生过任何怀疑？

Samantha, I wanna know from you, did the fact that Jacob was closeted to his family make you doubt your relationship with him in any way?

我只是觉得，我个人的疑虑是，如果杰克是同性恋，我是不是在阻碍他过上最完整、最快乐的人生。

I just felt I mean, the doubts that I personally had were maybe am I holding Jacob back from living his full happiest potential in life if he's gay.

因为我不希望他有一天最终感到自己被困在这段关系里。

Because I don't want him to, like, eventually one day just feel like he's, like, trapped in this relationship.

而他又不善于表达，所以我试着和他谈这些事。

And he wasn't a communicator, so I would try and talk to him about these things.

我认为这并不是因为杰克觉得和我谈这些事不安全。

And I don't think it was because Jacob did not feel safe communicating these things with me.

我觉得杰克只是不知道，和别人谈论困难话题其实可以有健康的方式，生活中也有安全的空间和值得信赖的人，这样谈并不会导致灾难性的结果。

I think Jacob just didn't know that there is a healthy way to talk about hard things with people, and there are safe spaces and safe people that you can go there with, and that it's not going to end up in this disastrous place.

这其实正是拥有伴侣的意义所在。

Like, that's kind of the point of having a partner in your life.

你能给我举个例子吗？比如在这段时间里，你尝试过什么样的对话？结果怎么样？

Can you give me an example maybe of a conversation that you tried to have during this time and how it went down?

你还记得某个具体的时刻吗？

Do you remember a specific moment?

我的意思是，这种情况发生了一百多次。

I mean, there were over a 100 of them.

我的意思是，这几乎是每周都会发生的事，比如萨曼莎会问我：为什么你的家人不知道这个情况？他们是怎么想的？

I mean, they this was a this was a weekly occurrence of maybe Samantha saying something to me like, well, why does your family doesn't know about this dynamic, and what do they think?

他们会不会觉得，我们就像在瞒着他们过着一种假象，好像你不是同性恋，而你们的关系看起来很普通——而它确实很普通。

Do they you know, the it just kind of looks feels like we're living this lie without them knowing you're gay, and they feel like just like a normal relationship, which it is.

但这种模式并没有完全坦诚地面对这一面。

But they that sort of that dynamic isn't fully being truthful to that side.

所以她可能当时感觉像是我家人眼中的‘挡箭牌’，比如我圣诞节回家时，每个人都能看到我过着正常的异性恋生活。

And so she kind of probably felt like a beard at that point for my family where it's like, I can go home on Christmas, and everybody can see me having a normal hetero life.

甚至当我解释自己对女性没有吸引力时，这也是个大问题，因为她总会问我，比如：你觉得那个女孩漂亮吗？无论是我们认识的人，还是路上的陌生人？

Or even me just explaining the fact that I have no attraction to women was a major thing because it was just like you know, she'd ask me she'd ask me, like, did I would I find this girl pretty or something, either someone we know or someone in public?

我会说：不。

And I'm like, no.

我的意思是，我可以说，嘿。

Like, I I can say, hey.

那个女孩，你知道的，她把自己照顾得很好，对吧。

That girl, you know, takes care of herself or Right.

她很出色，或者做这做那。

Is is fabulous or does this or that.

但无论女人做什么，都不可能让我对她们产生吸引力。

But there's no nothing a woman's gonna do that's ever gonna make me attracted to them.

我那样做是为了试着理解，因为雅各布并没有完全表达他的感受，他还没有找到自己的沟通方式。

And that was my way of trying to just understand because Jacob wasn't, like, fully talking about his feelings and, like, and, like, he he hadn't found his groove of communication yet.

所以我的策略是，好吧。

So my tactic was, like, okay.

让我看看能不能通过现实中的例子来做到。

Like, let me see if I can do it through real world examples.

比如

Like

而对我来说，这最终转化为大量的愤怒。

And that then for me translated into, unfortunately, a lot of anger.