本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
你好。
Hi.
我是索拉纳·莱恩。
I'm Solana Pine.
我是《纽约时报》视频部门的总监。
I'm the director of video at The New York Times.
多年来，我的团队制作了大量视频，带您更贴近重大新闻时刻，这些视频由《纽约时报》记者制作，凭借专业洞察帮助您理解正在发生的事情。
For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on.
现在，我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用的“观看”标签页中。
Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.
这是一个专属的视频频道，您可以完全信赖其中的内容。
It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.
那里所有的视频都免费向所有人开放。
All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.
您无需成为订阅用户。
You don't have to be a subscriber.
下载《纽约时报》应用程序开始观看。
Download The New York Times app to start watching.
现在就点赞并离开。
Love now and drop.
加入进来
Fall in
上次我喜欢他们的时候。
love last time I love them.
爱比任何东西都更强大。
Love is stronger than anything.
为了爱，爱。
For the love Love.
我比任何事物都更爱你。
And I love you more than anything.
爱。
Love.
这里有爱。
There's love.
爱。
Love.
来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
这是《现代爱情》。
This is Modern Love.
本周，我们想为您带来去年我们最喜欢的一期节目，因为我们有一个美好的小更新要与您分享。
This week, we wanted to bring you one of our favorite episodes from last year because we have a wonderful little update to share with you.
这是我与一对新婚夫妇雅各布·霍夫和萨曼莎·格林斯通的对话。
It's a conversation I had with a pair of newlyweds, Jacob Hoff and Samantha Greenstone.
我们节目的对话通常来自《现代爱情》专栏，但我们实际上是通过报纸的‘誓言’栏目第一次了解到雅各布和萨曼莎的。
Now a lot of the times, conversations on our show come from the Modern Love column, but we actually first heard about Jacob and Samantha in the vows section of the paper.
他们的婚礼细节立刻引起了我们的注意。
Right away, the details of their wedding stood out.
比如，雅各布选择走红毯时播放的那首歌。
Like, for example, the song Jacob chose to walk down the aisle to.
我想以《歌剧魅影》的旋律出场。
I wanted to come down to the Phantom of the Opera.
那里有个瞬间，那个女人尖叫起来，然后一切就结束了。
There there's this moment this woman just screams, and it's like, done.
结束了。
Done.
结束了。
Done.
结束了。
Done.
结束了。
Done.
我当时就想，我戴着面具出现时，就该是这种效果。
And I was like, that's what needs to happen as I appear in a mask.
然后萨曼莎也想给婚礼加入自己的独特元素。
And then Samantha also wanted to put her own spin on the wedding.
我超爱《泰坦尼克号》。
I love Titanic.
有一段时间我想把泰坦尼克号沉船的造型放在婚礼蛋糕上，但我妈和婚礼策划师说不行。
There was a point where I wanted to have a sinking Titanic on top of our wedding cake, but my mother and the wedding planner said, no.
你难道想在婚礼当天搞个几千人丧生的活动吗？
You ought to have an event where thousands of people died on your wedding day.
我当时就想，我的意思是，这不也是最美丽的爱情故事吗？
And I was like, I mean, it's also like the most beautiful love story.
显然，他们的品味很一致，但他们其实是一对不太可能的组合，因为雅各布是同性恋，而萨曼莎是异性恋。
Clearly, their tastes are aligned, but they're actually an unlikely pair because Jacob is gay and Samantha is straight.
很多人不理解他们的关系，但他们把彼此的联系描述为浪漫而特别的。
A lot of people don't understand their relationship, but they describe their connection as romantic and special.
他们称之为灵魂羁绊。
They call it a soul tie.
当你和对的人在一起时，这种纽带会将你们牢牢地系在一起，形成一种无法打破的联系。
When you are with the right person, this thing is tethering you guys so firmly together that it is an unbreakable bond.
我觉得，如果人们只是去寻找那些能让他们在那种方式下感到安全的伴侣，我不知道。
And I think if people just did look for the partners that made them feel secure in that way, I don't know.
我认为这就是爱的秘密。
I think that it's like the secret to love.
萨曼莎和雅各布现在已经在一起七年多了。
Samantha and Jacob have been together for over seven years now.
但我想知道，他们的关系对他们各自的自我认同意味着什么？他们又是如何走到婚姻这一步的？
But I wanted to know what does their relationship mean for their individual identities, and what did it take for them to come together in a marriage?
请继续关注我们。
Stay with us.
理论上，我知道这种事情可能发生在任何家庭中。
In theory, I knew that this kind of thing can happen in any family.
任何人的表亲都可能在密谋谋杀。
Anyone's first cousin could be plotting murder.
这里是UCE四七三五，今天是。
This is UCE four seven three five, and today is.
正直的公民总是被发现是隐藏的罪犯。
Upstanding citizens are always turning out to be secret criminals.
与艾伦·盖森的循环式对话。
Cyclic wording with Alan Gessen.
我甚至不认为我的表兄艾伦是个正直的人。
And I wouldn't even call my cousin Alan an upstanding citizen.
你知道，我的客户都是贩毒集团级别的家伙。
You know, my clients are cartel level guys.
他们都是狠角色。
They're all badasses.
他们他们他们
They're they they
但知道是一回事，有没有一种更持久的方式来做这件事呢？
But it's one thing to know There's a more permanent way to do Is this?
对。
Yeah.
又不一样了。
One more different.
是永久性的。
Permanent.
而另一回事是
And another thing to
明白。
understand.
艾伦想杀我。
Alan murder me.
最后情况比我原本认知里的还要糟糕得多。
It ended up being so much worse than I thought I knew.
这个价格吧，我觉得还算合理。
The price is, I mean, a bit reasonable.
好的。
Okay.
但这值得吗？艾伦到底在想什么？
But would it worth What the hell was Alan thinking?
比如说，我有点生气。
Like, let just say that I'm a little bit pissed off.
你
You
知道吗
know what
在说什么吗？
saying?
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我明白。
I get it.
是的。
Yeah.
由Serial Productions和《纽约时报》出品，我是艾姆·格森，欢迎收听《傻瓜》。
From Serial Productions and The New York Times, I'm Em Gessen, and this is The Idiot.
在您收听播客的任何平台收听本节目。
Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
好的。
Okay.
雅各布和萨曼莎，我必须知道你们俩是怎么认识的。
Jacob and Samantha, I gotta know how the two of you met.
我们在音乐剧《屋顶上的小提琴手》的试镜中认识的。
We met at a callback for the musical Fiddler on the Roof.
当时我们都留下来等待一个角色，他们带来了一个叫弗鲁梅拉的角色，她是噩梦场景中的一位幽灵。
And so we both were sticking around for a part, and they bring the part in for Frumasera, who is this ghost in a nightmare sequence.
当时一片死寂，然后我透过门听到一个声音，心想：哇。
And it's just, like, dead silent, and then I just hear this through the door, and I'm like, woah.
那是谁？
Who was that?
什么样的人能这么大胆？
And what person could be that ballsy?
这人根本不在乎，我一下子就迷上了。
This person literally didn't give a fuck, and I was enamored.
是我。
It was me.
我立刻就知道是她。
And I, like, immediately knew that was her.
我就觉得她有那种
Just had How
你怎么知道的？
did you know?
你怎么知道的？
How did you know?
我就是有种像激光一样的直觉。
I just had this, like, laser vision.
我当时看起来像个疯子。
And I looked like a cackler.
是的。
Yeah.
我直接冲上去，心想：如果他们没给你这个角色，那他们就是疯了。
And I just ran up, and I was like, if they don't give you that part, they're crazy.
那一刻，就像一位女神遇见了自己的粉丝。
And it was kind of like a diva meeting a fan at that moment.
她当时说，谢谢你。
Like, she was like, you know, thank you.
而且
And
我只需要这样一个击掌，来让我知道，我对自己这件事感觉很好。
I need I needed just this, like, high five to let me know that, like, I I feel good about this.
所以能有这样的再次确认，告诉我‘你做得很好’，真是太棒了。
So it was amazing to have this, like, reiteration that, okay, like, you you did a good job.
萨曼莎，你和雅各布之间的关系，除了友谊之外，还有别的感觉吗？
Samantha, did your connection with Jacob feel like anything other than friendship?
这确实让我觉得神圣，是一种我以前从未在任何人身上体验过的感觉。
It definitely felt sacred, and it felt like something that I had never experienced with anyone before.
但这也让我很困惑，因为我知道雅各布是同性恋。
But it was also confusing because I knew that Jacob was gay.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我就想，好吧。
So I was like, okay.
我觉得这种联系就是这样。
Like, I'm feeling like this, like, connection of that.
这是我能描述它的最好方式。
Like, that's the best way I can describe it.
我甚至无法用语言表达出来。
I can't even put it into words.
我只能用那个声音来表达。
I can only put it into that sound.
但这让我很困惑，因为我想，他是同性恋啊。
And but it was confusing because I'm like, well, he's gay.
那这可能吗？
So can it be that?
但感觉就是这样。
But it felt like that.
是的。
Yeah.
雅各布，你当时会如何描述自己的性取向？
Jacob, how would you have described your sexuality at the time?
那真的很有趣。
That was that was interesting.
内心深处，我知道自己是同性恋，并且只向一些我感到信任的人透露过。
Internally, I I knew I was gay, and I shared that with select people who I felt comfortable with.
但我还没有向家人坦白，当时对出柜有些回避和恐惧。
There was still I had not shared that with my family yet, and there was some avoidance and some fear of coming out.
还有一些人，我并不觉得可以向他们坦白。
And there were certain people that I didn't feel comfortable sharing it with.
所以大多数时候，我选择对这些事保持沉默。
So I kind of just kept quiet about things most of the time.
但像萨曼莎这样我亲密的朋友，我会向她倾诉。
Or but but to somebody like Samantha, who was my close friend, I would confide that in.
所以那确实是这样。
And so it was yeah.
那时我还没有完全向所有人出柜，也没有真正活出真实的自己，内心因此充满了挣扎。
There was there was a lot of sort of inner turmoil with that having not fully come out to everyone yet and living the the truth yet.
她一出现，就让我更加困惑，我心里想：等等，这不对劲。
She comes in and, like, adds to the confusion because I'm just like, now wait a minute.
这个人的存在让我觉得怪怪的。
Now I'm like, like, this person, it's weird.
这种联系很特别，也许它超越了单纯的友谊。
Like, this connection is unique, and maybe it does go beyond just friendship.
你是怎么看待这段友谊的呢？是的。
How were you sort of processing this this friendship Yeah.
当时你是怎么想的？
At the time?
我记得，第一个察觉到有些不一样的迹象，是在我们第二次或第三次见面时，一起去了一家餐厅。
You know, the first indication that something was different, I remember, I think it was, like, the second or third time we hung out, and we went to a restaurant together.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我记得，准备出门、然后去接她的时候，那种兴奋感。
And I remember, like, the excitement of getting ready and then going and, like, picking her up.
我当时就想，天啊。
And I was like, god.
这感觉就像是一次约会。
This feels like a date.
这种感觉，就像一个人要和某人约会时那样兴奋不已。
Like, this feels the way somebody would be, like, giddy about going on a date with somebody.
我当时有一种奇怪的紧张感，完全把我搞懵了。
And there was, like, this weird nervousness in me, and it was throwing me for a loop.
但我从未想过要表达出来，或者把事情进一步发展，因为我不想破坏当时的关系。
But I never I never considered saying something or taking it anywhere further because I didn't wanna disrupt what was going on.
你对萨曼莎有好感吗？
Were you were you attracted to Samantha?
我对萨曼莎有好感。
I was attracted to Samantha.
但当我谈论我们之间的吸引力时，我不断提到这是一种灵魂的连接，是一种对她本人、她的本质的深深吸引。
But I as I talk about the way and I continue to to talk about the way our attraction works, it's such a soul connection, and it's such a it's such an attraction to who she is and the person that she is and her entity.
这种吸引并不是那种近乎欲望的感觉。
And it's not in that it's not in that sort of almost lustful sense.
这不是
It's not
在
in
身体部位方面，我被男性吸引的方式与我被萨曼莎吸引的方式截然不同。
that the body parts or the way I'm attracted to men feels very different than the way I am attracted to Samantha.
她的吸引是一口深井，而我被男性吸引的感觉则非常浅薄、表面。
And that her hers is a much it's a very deep well, and the way I'm attracted to men feels very shallow and surface.
萨曼莎，当你和雅各布进行这次可能是约会、也可能不是约会的相处时，你有没有感受到同样的那种兴奋、雀跃感？
Samantha, when you and Jacob were going on this maybe date, maybe not a date, did you feel that same, like, fizzy, giddiness?
是的。
Yeah.
我确实有这种感觉。
I do I did.
而且，他请我吃饭，那种感觉确实有点特别。
And, I mean, like, he paid for my food, and it did kind of feel like it had this, like, special thing about it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我觉得自己好像被追求了，不过我也觉得，好吧。
But, like, it felt like I was, like, kind of being courted, but also, I'm like, okay.
我正被这位朋友追求。
I'm being courted by this this friend.
这个同性恋。
This homo.
这个同性恋。
This homo.
我
I
我的意思是，我想问一下，萨曼莎，这时候你是不是已经开始对雅各布产生你认为是浪漫的感觉了？
mean, I wanna ask, like, for you, Samantha, like, you're starting to feel what what you would consider, like, romantic feelings towards Jacob at this time.
这么说对吗？
Is that is that true to say?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我当时确实有这些感觉，但我也很谨慎，对这件事进展得很慢。
I think I was feeling these feelings, but I was also very guarded and really taking it slow with this.
然后，当然，你再加入同性这个因素，我就想，好吧。
And then, of course, you add the gay element to it, and I'm like, okay.
这不可能是那样，但这也确实有点什么。
This can't be that, but, like, this is something.
我想我只是知道，这件事太特别了，我不想搞砸任何事，所以我愿意耐心等待，看它会如何发展。
And I guess I'm just going I knew that it was so special that I didn't wanna mess anything up, and I was okay with having to be patient and seeing how it played out.
我不知道。
I don't know.
你对雅各布逐渐产生的情感，是否开始变得让你无法忽视？
Did these feelings that were building for Jacob start to feel like you you couldn't ignore them?
就像，你觉得自己必须采取行动了？
Like, you kinda had to act on them?
在我们成为朋友大约十八个月后，我决定给雅各布发条短信，问他是否对我有超越友谊的感情。
About eighteen months into our friendship, I decided to text Jacob to ask if he had more feelings than just a friendship for me.
你为什么会选择这种方式？
How did you decide to do that approach?
你用什么方法来开启这段对话？我觉得你们俩都一直害怕面对这件事，不敢正视它。
What was your what was your method of sort of opening up this conversation that I would say both of you had been pretty terrified to to to begin, you know, this to look this thing in the face.
萨曼莎，你到底做了什么？
What did you what did you do, Samantha?
我就是直接给他发了条短信，这可能是理论上最糟糕的做法。
I literally just sent him a text message, which is probably, like, in theory, the worst way to do it.
我当时处于一种状态，只想彻底清除生活中的不确定性。
I was at a place where I was just like, I need to cleanse the uncertainty from my life.
不管这意味着什么，即使他对我没有超越朋友的感情，至少这件事说出来了，我有了答案，不用再被这种不确定性折磨了。
Whatever that means, even if he doesn't feel more feelings for me than a friend, know, at least it's out there and I have an answer and I don't have to live with this anymore.
我当时就想，必须把这种感觉从我身上彻底清除。
I was just like, it needs to be purged from my being.
但我们彼此太了解了，所以我心想，好吧。
But we knew each other so well that I was like, okay.
他一定会明白我想表达的意思。
This he's gonna just understand what I'm trying to say here.
于是我给他发了条消息，问：你有没有对我产生过超越朋友的感情？
So I texted him, and I was like, do you ever feel more than just a friend for me?
雅各布，我现在想转向你。
Jacob, I wanna switch to you right now.
你收到萨曼莎的消息时在做什么？当时有什么反应？
What were you doing when you got Samantha's text, and how did you react?
我记得看到消息时，心里涌起了两种截然不同的感觉。
I remember looking at it, and two very distinct feelings happened.
一方面，我当然也有这种感觉，简直不敢相信她竟然主动开口，而且在我们俩都绕了十八个月的弯子之后，还能这么勇敢地说出来。
One was, of course, I feel this way, and I can't believe she's taking the initiative to say it and being bold enough to say it after we've both been beating around the bush for eighteen months.
另一方面，我感到无比恐惧，担心这会毁掉我们的友谊，因为我根本不可能和她发展一段感情。
And the other was immense fear that this was going to ruin our friendship because I wasn't going to be capable of having a relationship with her.
然后我给她回了条消息，问：‘你什么意思？’
And then I sent her a text back saying, what do you mean?
这真是最蠢的回应了。
Which was the stupidest thing.
我当时就想：‘糟了。’
And I was like, oh, fuck.
那个词只是我在拖延时间。
The word that was like me just stalling.
然后是的。
And then Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
两分钟后，我就想，我刚说了什么？
Like, two minutes later, I'm like, what did I just say?
这真是太蠢了。
Like, that's so dumb.
于是我说，当然，我对你的感情超越了朋友，我愿意试试看这段关系会走向哪里。
And so then I said, of course, I feel more for you than a friend, and I'm willing to try and see where this goes.
你的最大顾虑是什么？
I mean, what was your biggest holdup?
我猜你可能有些担心自己在身体上或性方面是否能胜任。
I'd imagine there was maybe some fear around whether you could perform physically or sexually.
我觉得我早就知道这会是其中一部分，而正是这一点让我觉得自己不够好，觉得这件事会失败。
I think I just knew that that was going to be a part of it, and that's where I felt I was inadequate or that where this thing was gonna fail.
因为我知道其他所有方面都会顺利。
Because I knew every other aspect of it would work.
我的意思是，我们可以一起待上好几个小时，做任何其他事情，但这一点就是唯一的障碍。
I mean, we we can hang out for umpteen hours and do everything else, but that was the one kink in the hose.
在这些短信交流之后的第一次见面，你能告诉我，你们有没有明确提到这件事？
That first meeting after these text exchange, like, tell me, did you explicitly acknowledge it?
在那之后你们第一次面对面见面时，都聊了些什么？
What were the conversations that you had when you met up in person for the first time after all of this?
那感觉就像房间里有头大象，好吧，大家都心照不宣。
It was like it was like an elephant in the room that, like, okay.
我们现在就试试这样相处，但再也没有提过这件事。
Now we're gonna try it this way, but we never said another word.
是的。
Yeah.
就好像我们只是继续像我向他表白之前那样自然相处。
It was like we just went on existing the way we would have before I had approached him.
当时她和一个朋友住在一起。
We were she was living with a friend at the time.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们和那个朋友聊到很晚，一起闲逛，然后她有自己的房间。
And they they we were up chatting till late with the friend and hanging out, and then she had her own room there.
所以我们只是进去睡了，我之前也和她多次同床共枕过，但都是纯友谊的。
And so we just went in I just we had platonically slept in the same bed many times.
所以我们只是说，好吧。
So we were just like, okay.
我们要去睡觉了。
We're, like, gonna go to bed.
就像老手机一样退出。
Retire like the old phone.
是的。
Yeah.
事情就这么自然而然地发生了。
And it just it just happened that way.
是的。
Yeah.
即使门关着，你们俩在同一间卧室里，你们也没谈过关系性质的变化吗？
Even when, like, the door was closed and you guys were, like, in the same bedroom together and you didn't say, like, you didn't talk about the sort of changed nature of the relationship?
我觉得我们只是躺在那儿看马克思兄弟的电影。
I think we were just laying there watching, like, a Marx Brothers movie.
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
然后我就凑过去吻了你。
And and I think I just, like, leaned over and kissed you.
是的。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得就只是
And I think it just
然后呢？
Went from there?
从那以后就变得很放开了。
Got raunchy from there.
我的意思是，那个初吻感觉怎么样？
I mean, how did it how did that feel, that first kiss?
第一反应就是，天啊。
The first thing was like, oh my gosh.
我简直不敢相信这真的发生了。
I can't believe this is actually happening.
但接着就觉得，我们到底在等什么？
But then it felt like like, so what were we waiting for?
为什么我们要等十八个月才来到这么简单、美妙的境地？我的意思是，那根本一点都不尴尬。
Why why did we wait eighteen months to come to this very easy, amazing place where, I mean, there there it didn't feel awkward.
嗯。
Mhmm.
感觉一点都不不舒服。
It didn't feel, like, uncomfortable.
就是觉得我们一直都很合拍。
It just felt like we'd always kind of fit together.
是的。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
这我以前从未有过的感觉。
Which I'd never felt before.
那种恐惧，我的意思是，所有那些在那一刻都消失了。
That fear I mean, all of that just slipped away in that moment.
一切都变得很自然，感觉这里没有任何压力，即使有什么没发生也没关系，因为这就是我们，我们的关系。
And it was just like normal, and it felt like there's no pressure here if something doesn't hap like, it was just because it was us and our relationship.
有如释重负的感觉吗？
Was there relief?
你们的关系之前一直充满困惑。
There'd been so much confusion about your relationship.
那天晚上之后，你感到释然了吗？
Was there relief after this night?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
完全如此。
Totally.
仅仅知道这段关系能够成功，就是巨大的解脱。
Just the fact that it could successfully work was major relief.
在我们关系后续的发展中，过了那段蜜月期后，开始出现更多的问题，怀疑、不确定和恐惧又悄然回归。
Now down the road in our relationship, things started to get more there there after that honeymoon period, there became doubts and uncertainties and fears that crept back in.
因为我觉得，长久以来，它的持续性，还有那种，好吧。
Because I think the long just the longevity of it and the the sort of, okay.
我们进入了同居阶段，真正开始共同创造生活，这带来了一套新的问题：这一切是否能持续下去？
We're moving to this phase where we live together and, like, we're really creating a life together, imposed a new set of, like, is this something maintainable?
这真的能维持一辈子吗？
Is this something that can really last a lifetime?
而且我觉得萨曼莎说过，她担心自己会把我从和男人在一起的生活里带走。
And and for I think Samantha has said that it she was worried she was taking me away from, you know, being with a man.
我和萨曼莎的关系很坚定，但我一直害怕自己无法顺利走过结婚、生子这些异性关系中常见的阶段。
And I was very resolved with Samantha, but there was always that fear that I would wouldn't be able to just successfully go through the boxes of, like, getting married and having a child and all those things that come with a straight relationship.
我的世界彻底动摇了。
Like, my world was shook.
广告后，雅各布试图在与一位直女的恋爱关系中，面对想要出柜的挑战。
After the break, Jacob tries to navigate the challenges of wanting to come out of the closet while in a relationship with a straight woman.
接下来就是这个部分。
That's coming up.
所以雅各布，在你和萨曼莎共度那一晚之后，你对自身的性取向有了新的想法吗？
So Jacob, after that night that you and Samantha slept together, did it change the way you were thinking about your sexuality?
你有没有想过：我是酷儿。
Were you like, I'm queer.
我是双性恋。
I'm bi.
也就是说，那个晚上改变了你对自己的认知吗？
Like, did this night change your self assessment?
没有。
No.
我并没有真的重新评估自己。
I didn't really reassess myself.
我 basically 就觉得，这就是我生活中的现状。
I I basically just was like, this is my situation in life.
我和她在一起，她是我最好的朋友。
I'm in this relationship with her, and she's my best friend.
而我依然清楚自己的身份就是我的身份。
And that I still knew my identity to be my identity.
我想，这正是我们双方产生困惑的根源。
And I think that's where the confusions set in for both of us.
再多说说这个。
Talk more about that.
嗯，就像我说的，一开始有个蜜月期，然后我们经历了一段充满疑虑的时期，一直在想：这到底怎么行得通？
Well, I think like I said, there was a there was a honeymoon period, and then there was a period where we faced a lot of doubts and were like, how is this working?
我怎么了？我们是怎么维持这段关系的？
How am I how are we maintaining this?
从萨曼莎的角度来看，如果我是个女人，你怎么会从我这里得到满足呢？
How are you fulfilled by me if I'm a woman from Samantha's angle, I think.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这让人感到畏惧，因为我找不到合适的词来表达。
And it was daunting because I didn't have the words for that.
我没有那种语言工具或表达能力，因为我的一生一直都是这样：我默认自己就像个忧郁的马龙·白兰度或詹姆斯·迪恩。
I didn't have the a, I didn't have the verbal tools or skills because my whole life was like I say I I'm like my default is like a brooding Marlon Brando or James Dean.
就是，我就是那种人：不，不是那样的。
Like, I just I'm like, no.
她想谈论一切，并把所有事情都说出来。
And and she wants to talk about everything and get it out there.
而我当时还没有合适的词来表达这些。
And I didn't have the words for that yet.
那是你第一次和女人发生关系吗？
Was that the first time you'd had sex with a woman?
是的。
Yes.
我在高中时曾有过一些与女性的短暂互动，但都不成功，那时我正在探索自己的性取向。
I had had, you know, little interactions with women that were unsuccessful through high school and just try when I was trying to figure out my sexuality.
到了大学，我最终意识到，这永远不会改变。
And, eventually, in college, I got to a point where I realized this is never gonna change.
你总觉得这并不是真正的你。
You you think this isn't really me.
我真的不是同性恋。
I'm not really gay.
我能改变这一切。
I'm I'm I can change this.
这只不过是一种，不是阶段，而是一种我拥有的东西，只要我足够专注，我就能改变它。
This is just some sort of, like, not a phase, but something that I have that if I concentrate hard enough, I will change this.
对。
And Right.
最终，当你长大到一定程度时，你会明白：这就是真实的我。
Eventually, there gets to be a point where you grow up enough and you go, this just is who I am.
我不被女性吸引，这没什么。
And I'm I don't I'm not attracted to women, and that's fine.
我会接受这一点。
And I'm gonna just accept that.
但我同时也担心家人会接受这件事。
But I also was worried about my family accepting it.
我主要担心的是我父亲那边的家人会接受，因为他们的成长背景是非常保守的基督教环境。
I was mostly worried about my dad's side of the family accepting it because they it was a very, like, conservative Christian upbringing.
他们还说过一些事，我的意思是，我去过一个教堂，牧师曾举起一份请愿书，要求会众全体签名反对同性婚姻，当时他们正试图将其合法化。
And they had said thing I mean, I went to a church where the pastor held up a a petition to get everybody in the congregation to sign against gay marriage when they were trying to legalize it.
那你父亲呢？
What about your father specifically?
他是怎么对待你的？
How was he treating you?
你知道，小时候，他曾有过猜测。
You know, growing up, he had speculated.
而且，他经常会开车送我去学校，我就坐在他旁边，拿着便携式DVD播放器看《洛基恐怖秀》。
And, I mean, he would drive me to school, and I'd be sitting next to him in the car with my portable DVD player watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show.
他看着这部电影，嘲笑它，还说：这是什么玩意儿？
And he's, like, looking at this and making fun of it and being like, what is this?
然后，那个，
And and and then What
这是同性恋 crap？
is this gay shit?
是的
Yeah.
真的
Literally.
这简直是最gay的事情了。
It's like the gayest thing ever.
然后我就跟爸爸说，这可是我世界上最喜欢的东西。
And then and I'm like, you dad, this is, like, my favorite thing in the world.
在童年时期，有一些时刻，我清楚地记得自己突然僵住，而他则直接质问我这件事。
And there was there were, like, these moments in childhood where, like, I distinctly remember, like, seizing up and him, like, confronting me about it.
因此，我的人生中有一些非常明确的时刻，让我意识到：如果我是同性恋，我就不会被接纳，不会被当成正常人，也不会成为那个风光无限的人。
And so there were these really, like, definitive moments in my life where I'm like, I'm not going to be accepted or be normal or be, you know, the hotshot guy if I'm a gay.
我想成为那个风光无限的人，想要成功，而这让我很困扰。
And I wanted to be the hotshot guy and and have success, and, you know, that was troubling.
我的意思是，雅各布，当你内心有一个无法否认的真相，却被家人、教会和整个社区告诉你，这是错误的，这种感觉真的非常痛苦。
I mean, Jacob, that's really painful to feel like there's this truth that you cannot deny, and you're surrounded by family, by a church, by a community that's telling you that that is the wrong way to be.
这一定是一个非常艰难的接纳过程。
That must have been a really difficult acceptance to to reach.
这确实很难接受，因为那时我甚至陷入了更黑暗的想法：这不会改变，除非我跟某个人非常熟，否则我不会向任何人透露关于自己的这些事。
It was a really hard pill to swallow because I think at that point, I went into even a darker idea, which is just like, this isn't gonna change, but I'm unless I'm so comfortable with the person, I'm just not gonna share anything about myself that way.
所以，对这么多人过着这种隐秘的生活，真的很艰难。
So that was hard to just kind of live this closeted life to so many.
萨曼莎，我想知道你，雅各布对家人隐瞒这件事，有没有让你对你们的关系产生过任何怀疑？
Samantha, I wanna know from you, did the fact that Jacob was closeted to his family make you doubt your relationship with him in any way?
我
I
我只是觉得，我个人的疑虑是，如果他是同性恋，我是不是在阻碍他实现人生中最幸福、最完整的可能。
just felt I mean, the doubts that I personally had were maybe am I holding Jacob back from living his full happiest potential in life if he's gay.
因为我不希望他有一天最终感到自己被困在这段关系里。
Because I don't want him to eventually one day just feel like he's trapped in this relationship.
他不善于沟通，所以我总会试着和他谈这些事。
He wasn't a communicator, so I would try and talk to him about these things.
我认为这并不是因为雅各布觉得和我沟通这些事情不安全。
And I don't think it was because Jacob did not feel safe communicating these things with me.
我觉得雅各布只是不知道，和别人谈论困难话题其实有健康的方式，也存在安全的空间和值得信赖的人，不会让事情演变成灾难性的结局。
I think Jacob just didn't know that there is a healthy way to talk about hard things with people, and there are safe spaces and safe people that you can go there with, and that it's not going to end up in this disastrous place.
这其实正是生活中拥有伴侣的意义所在。
Like, that's kind of the point of having a partner in your life.
你能给我举个例子吗？比如在这段时间里，你尝试过什么样的对话？结果如何？
Can you give me an example maybe of a conversation that you tried to have during this time and how it went down?
你还记得某个具体的时刻吗？
Do you remember a specific moment?
我的天，这样的对话有上百次之多。
I mean, there were over a 100 of them.
我的意思是，这几乎是每周都会发生的事，比如萨曼莎会问我：为什么你的家人不知道这个情况？他们是怎么想的？
I mean, they this was a this was a weekly occurrence of maybe Samantha saying something to me like, well, why does your family doesn't know about this dynamic, and what do they think?
他们难道没觉得，我们这样隐瞒你同性恋的身份，却装作一段正常的恋情，其实是在撒谎吗？但这段关系本来就是正常的。
Do they you know, the it just kind of looks feels like we're living this lie without them knowing you're gay, and they feel like just like a normal relationship, which it is.
但那种动态并没有完全对那一方保持诚实。
But they that sort of that dynamic isn't fully being truthful to that side.
所以那时她可能在我家人眼里就像一个幌子，比如我可以回家过圣诞节，每个人都能看到我过着正常的异性恋生活。
And so she kind of probably felt like a beard at that point for my family where it's like, I can go home on Christmas, and everybody can see me having a normal hetero life.
甚至当我解释自己对女性没有吸引力时，这也是个大问题，因为她经常会问我，比如，你觉得那个女孩漂亮吗？无论是我们认识的人还是公共场所的陌生人？
Or even me just explaining the fact that I have no attraction to women was a major thing because it was just like, you know, she'd ask me she'd ask me, like, did I would I find this girl pretty or something, either someone we know or someone in public?
我会说，不。
And I'm like, no.
比如，我可以说，嘿。
Like, I I can say, hey.
那个女孩，你知道，她把自己照顾得很好，没错。
That girl, you know, takes care of herself or Right.
她很棒，或者怎么样，等等。
Is is fabulous or does this or that.
但无论女人做什么，都不可能让我对她产生吸引力。
But there's no nothing a woman's gonna do that's ever gonna make me attracted to them.
展开剩余字幕（还有 193 条）
那就是我试图理解的方式，因为雅各布并没有完全表达他的感受，他还没有找到自己的沟通方式。
And that was my way of trying to just understand because Jacob wasn't, like, fully talking about his feelings and, like, and, like, he he hadn't found his groove of communication yet.
所以我的策略是，好吧。
So my tactic was, like, okay.
让我试试通过现实生活中的例子来说明。
Like, let me see if I can do it through real world examples.
比如。
Like
而对我来说，这最终转化为大量的愤怒。
And that then for me translated into, unfortunately, a lot of anger.
我会变得非常暴躁。
Would I would be it was, like, explosive.
你知道，她问我问题时，我就只是说：我是同性恋。
Like, you know, she would ask me something, and I'd just be like, I'm gay.
你为什么就是不明白我是同性恋？
Why don't you get I'm gay?
你知道吧？
You know?
或者，为什么你就是不明白这一点呢？
Or, like, why don't you how can how don't you understand this?
我会以各种疯狂的方式发泄出来。
And I would take it out in crazy ways.
我有路怒症。
I had road rage.
我在商店里会跟人吵架，或者任何地方，因为内心积压了太多来自这一生不断应对这些事的垃圾。
I would get in arguments with people at stores or anything because there was just so much bottled up crap from this, from a lifetime of of navigating this.
我能告诉她，但我不能告诉他们，而你知道，也许这会改变，但现在不会变了，他们也看不到我是同性恋。
And while I can tell her, but I can't tell them, and they you know, maybe this will change, and now it's not gonna change, and now they can't see I'm gay.
我觉得我当时很担心。
And I think I was worried.
我希望雅各布觉得他和家人的关系不是建立在他向他们展示的这种性格和形象之上。
I wanted Jacob to feel like his relationship with his family was not based upon this, like, character and this idea that he was showing them.
因为当时我担心，他会开始觉得，嗯，我爸爸接受的是他心目中对我的那种认知。
Because I did I was worried at one point he would then start to feel like, well, my dad accepts this idea of who he thinks I am.
你的家人，雅各布，看到你和一个女人约会。
Your family, Jacob, saw you dating a woman.
是的。
Mhmm.
而他们并不知道真相。
And they did not know the full truth
没错。
Right.
关于你的性取向。
Behind your sexuality.
这导致了很多困惑和很多愤怒，是的。
And this led to a lot of confusion and a lot of anger Yeah.
正如你所说的，对你而言。
As you say on your part.
你能告诉我，你是怎么最终向家人坦白真相的吗？那段经历是怎样的？
Can you tell me about how you finally told the truth to your family and what that experience was like.
是的。
Yeah.
这些年来，萨曼莎一直说，我觉得如果你告诉他们，你会释放掉很多愤怒。
Well, throughout the years, Samantha always said, I think you're gonna get rid of a lot of this anger if you tell them.
我当时只是说，
And I was like,
哦，告诉他们你是个同性恋。
oh Tell them you're gay.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是说，不。
And I was just like, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
这跟那完全没关系。
Like, that has nothing to do with it.
我不在乎他们怎么想，或者他们知不知道，那是我和你之间的事，不是他们的事。
Like, I don't care what they think or what they know or not know, and that's between me and you and not them.
然后我们去了佛罗里达。
And we go to Florida.
萨曼莎留在佛罗里达陪她的家人。
Samantha stays in Florida to be with her family.
我回到洛杉矶工作。
I come back to LA to work.
在回家的路上，我感染了新冠。
And on the way back home, I get COVID.
我发了高烧，还发冷。
And I got, like, just a bad fever and chills.
那时候我一个人待在我们的公寓里，得的那种病真的让你忍不住感叹，我的天。
And I'm alone in our apartment, and it's one of those sicknesses where you're like, wow.
就感觉我好像快要撑不住了。
Like, I feel like I could die.
其实也不是你说的那种情况啦。
Like, it's it's not that Right.
倒也没到那么凶险的地步，但你懂的，就是得那种会上吐下泻的病的时候，就会冒出那种感觉。
Not that wasn't that dire, but, you know, you have the one of those where you're throwing up or something and you get that feeling.
然后我突然想到，我得把这件事告诉我爸。
And all of a sudden, I thought, I need to tell my dad about this.
然后就
And it's
就觉得，哇哦。
like Wow.
这算怎么回事啊？
What about that?
因为感觉是因为什么？
Because it felt like because why?
为什么那种病
Why was that sickness
大脑在某种程度上直面了我的生活。
brain confronting my life a little bit.
就在那种生病的感觉中，我的大脑直面了一些我可能后悔的事情，或者我生活中一些有问题的地方。
Like, it just in in that feeling of, like, sickness, my brain confronted maybe some of some things I would regret or some things that I my life were problematic in my life.
而这些就突然浮现出来了。
And that was that just reared its head.
它就像是：你得告诉你爸爸你是个同性恋。
It was like, you need to tell your dad you're gay.
第二天早上，我给他打了电话，直接告诉了他。
The next morning, I called him, and I just told him.
我说：爸爸，我得告诉你一件事。
And I said, you know, dad, I'm I have to tell you something.
我是同性恋。
I'm gay.
我觉得我是个同性恋者，萨曼莎是我女朋友，但这只是我们的关系，和我的性取向是两回事。
I feel I am a gay person, and Samantha is my girlfriend, but this is just our relationship, and that's it's different than my sexual preference.
他回答说，好吧。
And he was like, okay.
他有点震惊。
And he was a little taken aback.
我对他说，爸，你肯定早就猜到了吧。
And I was like, dad, like I was like, you had to have, like, thought that.
我小时候整天听雪儿的歌。
I was like I mean, I was like, I was listening to Cher my entire childhood.
你怎么可能没想过呢？
Like, how are you not thinking that?
他说，我只是以为那是你喜欢的音乐而已。
And he's like, well, I just thought that was, like, the music you liked and stuff.
当时确实有那么一点震惊，但他实际上非常包容。
And there was definitely, like, some shock, but he actually was so accepting.
就是，好吧，就这么接受了。
Like, so so just like, okay.
事情进展得几乎太顺利了。
And it it went over almost too easy.
雅各布，当你向父亲出柜时，你还提到了你和萨曼莎的关系，而他们早就知道了。
Jacob, when you came out to your father, you also spoke about your relationship with Samantha, which they already knew about.
但我很好奇，你觉得，因为你和一个女性交往，这让他更容易接受吗？
But I wonder, like, do you think do you think that because you were in a relationship with a woman, it made it an easier pill to swallow for him?
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know what I'm saying?
比如
Like
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，有可能。
I mean, potentially.
我的意思是，如果萨曼莎不存在，比如说，而我只是过着自己的生活，我想我可能一辈子都会逃避。
I mean, if if Samantha didn't exist, let's say, and I just lived my life, I think I probably would have just been avoidant my whole life.
萨曼莎——和她在一起、了解她、爱她，带来了很多了不起的改变，其中之一就是我学会了表达和面对问题，能够谈论那些艰难的事情。
And Samantha one of the amazing one of the many amazing things that have come out of me by being with Samantha and knowing and loving Samantha is the ability to verbalize and confront things and talk about hard things.
我想补充一点关于雅各布的事情。
And something I'd love to add about Jacob Please.
我可以告诉你，他刚和他爸爸挂掉电话，就立刻给我打了电话，说：‘我刚告诉我爸爸我是同性恋。’
And I will tell you, the second he got off the phone with his dad, he calls me, and he's like, I just told my dad I'm gay.
那时候和我说话的，简直像换了一个人。
And it was like a new person was talking to me.
那感觉是，如此——
It was So
很多愤怒都消散了。
much of that anger dissipated.
一下子就散了。
Instantly.
对。
Yeah.
感觉你和萨曼莎的这段关系，或许让你父亲更容易接受这个消息。
It seemed like the fact of your relationship with Samantha perhaps softened this news for your father.
但你刚才也提到，正是因为你和萨曼莎在一起，你才有勇气把这个消息说出口。
But then also what you're saying is that it was only because of your relationship with Samantha that you were even able to deliver this news.
那我想问，这段看起来是异性恋的关系有没有给你提供过某种保护啊，对。
And I guess, like, did this heterosexual seeming relationship offer you some sort of protection that yeah.
我、我不知道。
I I don't know.
我都不知道自己在问什么了。
I don't know what the question is.
不好意思啊。
I'm sorry.
我有点困难。
I'm having trouble.
不。
No.
我觉得确实如此。
I think it totally did.
我的意思是，我认为这段关系就像一个锚点，让我能够向家人坦白内心的情况，否则这一切根本不会发生。
I mean, I think it it was the anchor that allowed me to open up to my family about what was going on inside because otherwise, it just wouldn't have happened.
那么，萨曼莎，你对自己是否让他困在一段关系中、不让他探索自己的性取向的怀疑和恐惧，你这边是怎么看的？
And, Samantha, your your doubt that you were or this feeling, this fear that you had that you were keeping him trapped in a in a relationship and not letting him explore his sexuality, what about that fear on your end?
你知道吗，当我看到雅各布为我所做的一切，他表达爱的方式，以及我们共同经历的一切，我知道他的感情远不止是性取向那么简单。
You know, I think as I have seen the number of ways that Jacob shows up for me and his expression of love and and just everything we've been through, I I know that he it's just deeper than just a sexual preference.
我真的觉得，一旦我明白他是我的灵魂伴侣，是我生命中的那个人，而我们只是在这个生命中恰好形成了这样的关系模式，我就意识到，好吧。
I really think that my once I understood that this is my soulmate and this is my person in life, and we have just found ourselves in this dynamic and form in this lifetime, it made me realize, okay.
他不会离开的。
This is he's not going anywhere.
我对生活中的很多事情都不确定，但我确定雅各布会永远在我身边。
I'm not certain about a lot of things in life, but I am certain that Jacob is in this forever.
所以那种感觉完全消失了。
And so that kind of just went away completely.
嗯。
Mhmm.
雅各布，为什么对你来说，把自己定义为只对男性有吸引力的同性恋者如此重要？
Jacob, why is identifying as gay as someone who is only attracted to men so important to you?
没错。
Right.
对我来说，这正是最重要的事，也是我们公开谈论我们关系的原因。
And this is to me the most important thing and why we talk publicly about our relationship.
‘同性恋’这个标签对我至关重要，因为它关系到我的心理健康，以及我多年来在挣扎出柜过程中所经历的动荡。
The label gay is so important to me because for my mental health, for the years of turmoil that I lived in struggling to come out.
而且对于我性取向的真实定义来说，这个标签最贴切。
And for the true definition of my sexuality, it's the label that fits.
我只被男性吸引。
I'm solely attracted to men.
而萨曼莎是我的灵魂伴侣，她就像另一个星系中的一颗恒星。
And Samantha being my soulmate is its own star in another galaxy.
当人们说，那你为什么不是双性恋呢？
And that when people say, well, why aren't you bisexual?
双性恋意味着你被两者吸引，而我不觉得我被两者吸引。
Well, bisexual means you're attracted to both, And I don't feel I'm attracted to both.
我知道我不会被两者吸引。
I know I'm not attracted to both.
我从未被女性吸引过，也永远不会。
I've never been attracted to a woman and never will be.
是的。
And Mhmm.
萨曼莎不是女性。
Samantha isn't a woman.
她是我的灵魂伴侣，也是我的伴侶。
She's a soulmate and a and a companionship.
你知道吗，我想问一个问题，我觉得我意思是，我不确定。
You know, I I wanna I wanna ask something that I I think I mean, I don't know.
这件事非常脆弱和敏感，我很感谢你们能和我一起面对。
This whole thing is is so vulnerable and sensitive, and I appreciate you guys going there with me.
我在想，雅各布，你是怎么解释的，对你来说，萨曼莎不是一个女人。
I'm I'm thinking about, Jacob, how you explained that, you know, to you, Samantha isn't isn't a woman.
她是灵魂伴侣。
She's a soulmate.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Right.
而且这也说明她处于一个不同于肉体吸引的层面。
And and that's also how she's in this different plane than physical attraction.
我想知道，萨曼莎，对你来说，这会让你觉得自己性吸引力下降或不再有魅力吗？
And I guess, Samantha, from you, I wanna know, like, does that make you feel, I don't know, any less sexual or desirable?
不被看作具有身体吸引力的这一部分，这种感觉你能理解吗？
Does that make sense to not be seen as sort of a a physical not have that component of physical attraction?
是的。
Yeah.
我明白你的意思。
I I get what you're saying.
恰恰相反，我觉得这反而让我觉得自己更有吸引力。
If anything I feel, it actually makes me feel more attractive.
就像对。
Like Yeah.
我通过雅各布看我的眼神来看待自己，这感觉太美了。
The the way that I see myself through the way Jacob's eyes look at me is so beautiful.
我从未觉得自己如此美丽或安心。
I never feel more beautiful or secure.
当雅各布看着我时，他看到的是真实的我，是我的本质。
When Jacob looks at me, he's seeing me for me and my being.
我对他是个同性恋这件事没有任何不安。
And I don't have any insecurities about him being gay.
对我来说，他拥有这个标签很重要，因为我知道他为了达到能够坦然公开这一身份所经历的努力与痛苦。
And it is important for me that he has that label because I know the work and the pain that he went through to get to a place where he could feel so comfortable shouting it from the rooftops.
我知道有时人们会评论说，‘可怜的萨曼莎。’
I know sometimes people comment and they're like, wow, poor Samantha.
我绝不可能和一个不被我吸引的男人在一起。
I could never be with a man who's not attracted to me.
我会说，要是你能看到、感受到我所感受到的就好了，是的。
And I'm like, it's if only you could see and feel what I feel Yeah.
我感受到自己有多有魅力，我知道雅各布有多被我吸引，当有人觉得你的存在是他们见过的最美丽的灵魂时，这种感觉有多棒——这种美甚至超越了他们的性欲，因为他们发现，灵魂中有一种如黄金般珍贵的重量。
And how attractive I feel, and how much I know Jacob is attracted to me, and how amazing it is for someone to think that your being is the most beautiful being they've ever encountered, that it can transcend even their sexual desires because they've just found that this there's this weight in gold in just a soul.
我在想，雅各布，正如我们之前讨论的，对你来说，认同自己是同性恋真的很重要，而且
I'm thinking about how it's really important to you, Jacob, as we've discussed, to identify as gay and
是的
Yeah.
作为曾经遭受歧视、暴力，并为争取在这个国家生存权利而奋力抗争的社群的一部分。
Part of a community that has faced discrimination, has faced violence, has fought hard for its right to exist in this country.
同时，在你和雅各布与萨曼莎的关系中，你们将拥有以异性恋伴侣身份行走于世的种种优势。
And at the same time, you know, in in your relationship, Jacob and Samantha, you will have this ability to move through the world with the benefits of
作为异性恋者。
Of being straight.
一对异性恋伴侣。
A heterosexual couple.
对吧？
Right?
比如相对容易地生育孩子，走在街上无需恐惧。
Like having kids relatively easily, walking down the street without fear.
你们两人是如何理解这一点的？
How do you two make sense of that?
你知道，我认为这是一种巨大的特权，我从未对此习以为常，我们就是我们这样的存在。
You know, I I consider that an immense privilege, and I don't take that for granted at all that we are what we are.
在世人眼中，我们是一对白人异性伴侣，可以随意走遍世界，外表上就呈现这样的形象，而无需他人去窥探我们内在的复杂性。
We are a on the surface in the world, we're a straight white couple that can just go around the world looking and presenting that way without people having to see the intricacies of what's going on.
我们甚至从酷儿社群中也收到过一些负面反应，他们认为我们是在试图威胁他们，或者暗示其他人也应该强制采用这种模式之类的。
And some of the backlash we receive has even come from the queer community where they think we're trying to threaten that or say other people can have this dynamic and should force it or something.
我们绝无任何方式、任何形式在倡导去追求这样的关系模式。
And we are in no way, shape, or form saying to seek out a dynamic like this.
我们相信，像我们这样能行得通的案例，百万中无一。
We believe we're one in a million that this can work.
所以，你知道，任何边缘化群体，当有某种事物闯入并挑战他们对自己身份的定义，以及他们为在这个世界中生存而必须捍卫的东西时，都会感到防御性。
So, you know, any any marginalized community that has something come in that's out of their definition of who they are and what they've had to defend themselves to be in this world, they're gonna feel defensive about it.
无论是像一个保守的直人那样说：不。
And whether it's a straight conservative being like, no.
我知道，娶一个女人、做一名基督徒、做这些事情，才是正确的道路。
I know that getting married to a woman and being a Christian and doing those things, like, that's the right way.
这对我来说非常有效，对很多人也一样。
That's worked for me so well and so many other people.
一个同性恋者会说，不。
And a gay person will say, no.
我知道和男人在一起、做一名同性恋者、表达这一点，对我而言非常合适。
Like, I know being with a man and being being gay, expressing that, that works for me and does so well.
我们都在努力捍卫一些固定的定义，以便让自己的生活显得合理。
Like, we all have these set definitions we're trying to defend so that our own life can feel valid.
我们并不想威胁任何人。
And we're not trying to threaten anybody.
我们只是想为对话增添一点内容，说：我们也在。
We're trying to add to the conversation and say, we're here too.
你知道吗？
You know?
你希望人们对你这段关系有什么理解？
What do you want people to understand about your relationship?
你想
Do want
我认为，最简单地说，这只是一个两个人因为所有正确的原因而相爱的真爱故事。
me I think in the most simplest terms, it's just a true love story of two people who fell in love with one another for all of the right reasons.
这份爱发生了。
This love happened.
这真的有点像一见钟情，本该是简单的。
It really was kind of a love at first sight thing, and it should be easy.
这一切的起点本该是简单的。
The the origins of it all should be easy.
如果真有什么需要努力的，那也只是关系中自然存在的付出。
If there's ever any work involved, it's just the natural work involved in a relationship.
但当你知道的时候，你就知道。
But but when you know, you know.
我们希望人们明白，爱完全可以如此简单。
And we want people to know that love just can be that simple.
是的
Yeah.
对我来说，坦诚面对自己的感受永远都是正确的选择，这会引导你走向平和、宁静、稳定的关系，以及我们所有人都渴望获得的一切。
And I think just for me, it's being open and honest about your feelings is always always the right answer, and that will guide you to peace and tranquility and stable relationships and all of that that thing that we're all hoping to attain.
而我找到自己的真相，并能说出来，这才是真正的问题所在。
And and me finding my truth and and being able to speak it is which was really the issue.
问题不在于找到它。
It wasn't finding it.
问题在于能够谈论它，这给了我平和。
It was being able to talk about it, gave me peace.
不要担心被拒绝。
And don't don't worry about the rejection.
雅各布和萨曼莎，非常感谢你们与我们分享你们的爱情故事。
Jacob and Samantha, thank you so much for sharing your love story with us.
我真的很感激。
I'm I'm really grateful.
谢谢。
Thank you.
好的。
Alright.
这是我们节目开始时承诺的更新。
Here is that update we promised at the top of the show.
他们结婚将近一年后，萨曼莎和雅各布有了一个孩子。
Almost a year after they got married, Samantha and Jacob had a baby.
我们问他们近况如何，他们告诉我们，有了一个四个月大的儿子，他们的感情变得更加深厚，而儿子正是他们爱情故事的完美见证。
We asked them how things were going, and they told us that having a four month old son has strengthened their bond in an even deeper way and that he's the perfect token of their love story.
此外，他们说经常给儿子播放他们最爱的百老汇音乐剧原声带。
Plus, they said they're constantly playing him soundtracks of their favorite Broadway musicals.
《现代爱情》团队包括艾米·珀尔、戴维斯·兰德、埃莉萨·古铁雷斯、艾米莉·兰、詹·波扬、林·莱维、里瓦·戈德堡和萨拉·柯蒂斯。
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.
本集由艾米莉·兰制作。
This episode was produced by Emily Lang.
本集由珍·波扬剪辑。
It was edited by Jen Poyant.
制作管理由克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫负责，混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯。
Production management by Christina Joseph, and our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
本集的原创音乐由罗文·内米斯托创作。
Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemisto.
丹·鲍威尔为我们创作了主题音乐。
Dan Powell composed our theme music.
特别感谢珍妮·布洛克和肖娜·亚历山大。
Special thanks to Jenny Block and Shawna Alexander.
《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑，米娅·李是现代爱情项目编辑。
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
如果您想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或微型爱情故事，我们已在节目说明中提供了投稿指南。
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes.
我是安娜·马丁。
I'm Anna Martin.
谢谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。