艾伦·卡明如何逃离父亲，成为真正的自己

我觉得在演戏的时候，你必须完全投入其中。

I think the feeling of being in a scene, and you've got to be completely there.

有趣的是，你必须能够完全忘我，

It's so interesting how you've just got to be able to just lose yourself-

然后进入那个状态，真正去倾听，真正去连接。

... and go to this place and really listen, really connect.

我觉得我之所以知道怎么做，是因为我不得不立刻判断出‘这里到底发生了什么？’

And I think I understand how to do that because of having to just immediately be able to, like, "What is going on here?"

我们聊的是你上戏剧学院那段时间，以及刚毕业那会儿。

We're talking about the sort of drama school era of your life and immediately after.

在那几年里，你和你父亲的关系越来越疏远。

And throughout these years, you've become estranged from your father.

你们不说话了。

You don't talk.

然后，这跳过了好几年，你参与了一个关于你家族历史的电视节目。

And then you are, this is moving ahead several years, but you're doing a TV show about your family history.

在这么多年不说话之后，你爸爸联系了你，然后告诉你一件特别震惊的事。

And after all these years of not talking, your dad gets in touch, and he tells you something really shocking.

是的。

Yes.

这算是一个稍微简化一点的版本——

That's a sort of slightly truncated version-

对。

Yes

……事情的经过。

... of the thing.

但他是通过我哥哥联系我的。

But via my brother, he gets in touch.

对。

Yes.

通过你哥哥。

Via your brother.

他联系我是因为那个电视节目，因为他觉得我会在节目上发现这件事。

And he gets in touch because of the television show, because he thinks that I'm going to find this thing out on the television show.

你能告诉我他通过你哥哥传递了什么信息吗？

Can you tell me what he shares via your brother?

他告诉我哥哥，我不是他的亲生儿子。

He shares with my brother that I am not his biological son.

这就是你第一本回忆录的书名。

This is the title of your first memoir.

《我不是我父亲的儿子》。

"Not My Father's Son."

不过，我想回到那个时刻。

I wonder if we can go to that moment, though.

当你通过你哥哥得知这个消息时——

When you're told this via your brother-

……你是什么感受？

... how does it hit you?

因为这很复杂。

Because it's complicated.

嗯，他告诉了我哥哥。

Well, he told my brother.

他联系了我哥哥，我哥哥说：“我有件事要告诉你。

He got in touch with my brother, and my brother said, "I've got something to tell you.

我不能告诉你。”

I can't tell you."

他其实处理得不太好，因为……他说：“我有件事要告诉你，但我不能告诉你。”

And he kind of handles it badly, actually, because- ... he said, "I've got something to tell you, but I can't tell you."

“什么事？”

"What is it?"

他说：“不行，真的，我不能说。”

He goes, "No, it's just, really, I can't."

总之，我当时吓坏了。

Anyway, and I was freaking out.

当然。

Of course.

然后它——

And it-

当然。

Of course

……他花了大概两个小时才从南安普顿到我这里……

... took him like two hours to get there from Southampton to my...

我当时脑子转得飞快，然后——

And my mind was racing, and-

你觉得可能是什么事？

What did you think it might be?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我想可能是……

I thought maybe...

我不知道。

I don't know.

其实我当时想到了各种可能——

I'd actually just thought of all sorts of things-

比如，我不知道，是不是有什么……

... that there was, I don't know, some...

我其实没往我爸那方面想。

I didn't actually think, it wasn't so much the thing with my dad.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我以为可能是谁出事了，或者有人去世了——

I thought something was wrong with maybe somebody had died-

或者是出了什么丑闻之类的。

... or there was some sort of like scandal or something.

明白。

Sure.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我就是有这些……

I just had all these...

太疯狂了。

It was so nuts.

然后他告诉我，我记得他花了好一会儿才说出口，因为那太糟糕了，想象一下，他得说出这件事。

And then he told me, and I remember it took him a while to be able to say it, because it was awful, imagine, for him to have to say this.

你能带我回到那个时刻吗？

Can you bring me into that moment?

我知道那是很多年前的事了，你也讲过这件事，但他说的时候你在哪里？

I know it's many years ago, and you've talked about this, but where were you when he told you this?

我们在我在伦敦的公寓里，我的朋友苏西和多姆和我在一起。

We were in my flat in London, and my friends Suzy and Dom were with me.

他们当时住在那个公寓里。

They were staying in the flat.

所以当他来的时候，我不能，我们显然得单独谈，所以我们上了楼，到了那个大露台上。

And so when he came, I couldn't, we obviously had to do it alone, so we went upstairs onto the deck, on this big deck.

那里有一张桌子和两条长凳。

And there was a sort of a table and two benches.

我就说：“你得告诉我。

I was like: "You've got to tell me.

直接告诉我。”

Just tell me."

然后他告诉了我，我整个人往后一仰。

And he told me, and I propelled backwards.

哇。

Wow.

我把长凳撞翻了。

I knocked over the bench.

我摔倒在地板上。

I fell on the floor.

楼下的苏西和多姆以为我们在吵架，因为他们听到了一堆哐当哐当的声音——

Suzy and Dom from downstairs thought we were having a fight because they heard all this clanking of-

哇

Wow

……就是那些长椅什么的。

... the benches and stuff.

对，当时真的特别疯狂。

Yeah, it was really nuts.

那当时有没有一种解脱的感觉，还是说——

Did it feel like a relief in some way, or was it-

一开始没有——

Not at first-

……但最后确实有。

... but yes, ultimately.

然后那天晚上，我哥哥留了下来，我在伦敦的房子里有个小上下铺房间，感觉就像又回到了小时候。

And then that night, my brother stayed over, and there was a little bunk room in the house that I had in London, and it was like being little boys again.

他当时情绪很激动……

He was on one...

那里有个小楼梯，还有个小阁楼——

There was little stairs and a little attic-

哎呀

Aw

……还有两张小床。

... and two little beds.

还有我们的小被子，你知道那种叫什么，蒲团。

And our little duvet, you know what you call them, futons.

谢谢。

Thank you.

他有点像是说：“你很幸运，他不是他的儿子。”

And he sort of said: "You're lucky he's not his son."

我当时确实想：“是的，我确实很幸运。”

And I actually thought, "Yeah, I am."

我为他感到难过。

And I felt bad for him.

为你弟弟。

For your brother.

然后第二天，我在伦敦。

And then the next day, I was in London.

哦，那真是太疯狂了。

Oh, it was crazy.

我去游泳了，然后我记得走在查令十字路上，我看到自己在中间的倒影——

And I went swimming, and then I remember walking down Charing Cross Road, and I saw a reflection of myself in the middle-

——在一家书店的橱窗里。

... in the window of a bookshop.

我记得当时想：“这就是为什么我没有胸毛。”

And I remember thinking, "That's why I don't have a hairy chest."

那就像是恍然大悟。

That was like the ah.

这么多年了。

All these years.

那你对没有胸毛这件事是高兴，还是你本来想要有胸毛？

And were you happy about the no hair, or you had wanted hair?

这真是——

This is very-

我一直都想要有胸毛。

I've always wanted a hairy chest.

你一直想要。

You've always wanted it.

好的。

Okay.

对，我一直都想要有胸毛。

Yeah, I've always wanted a hairy chest.

我一直想问你这个重要的问题，就是你到底想不想要有胸毛。

This is an important question I wanted to ask you, is if you wanted a hairy chest.

我一直想要一个毛茸茸的胸。

I've always wanted a hairy chest.

好的。

Okay.

所以实际上，我的胸毛长得不太对称，就稀稀拉拉的一点。

And so really, I've got a sort of an unsymmetrical kind of, like a smattering.

谢谢你描述得这么清楚。

Thank you for describing it.

我明白了。

I understand.

你父亲胸毛很多。

And your father has a hairy chest.

好的，所以就像——

Okay, so it's like-

对，挺烦人的。

Yeah, annoyingly

……你看着这个，心里想：‘这说得通。’

... you're looking at this, you're like, "This makes sense."

当然，你父亲告诉你‘你不是我儿子’——

Of course, your father telling you, "You are not my son"-

……这是可以被证实或推翻的，所以你去做了DNA测试——

... this is something that can be proven, disproven, so you take a DNA test-

……你和你的兄弟。

... you and your brother.

因为我不信任他。

Because I don't trust him.

这就是有趣的地方，回头看，他首先愿意做DNA测试。

That's what's interesting about this, looking back at it, that he said, first of all, he was willing to take a DNA test.

然后他后来却退缩了。

And then it was the fact he kind of backed off from that.

我当时想：‘哦。’

I thought, "Oh."

所以后来我才意识到，我当时真是乱成一团。

So then I realized, I was just in such a mess.

我的整个生活都在崩溃，而同时我还在录那个《你究竟是谁》节目。

My whole life was falling apart, and at the same time I was doing this "Who Do You Think You Are?"

还发现了我祖父那些疯狂的事，最后才知道他是在马来西亚玩俄罗斯轮盘赌死的。

and finding out all this crazy stuff with my grandfather, who ultimately I find out died playing Russian roulette in Malaysia.

你一下子接收了好多信息。

There's a lot of information coming your way.

这个夏天真是大事不断。

This is a big summer.

这个夏天真是大事不断。

This is a big summer.

我本来想先搞清楚到底发生了什么，再跟我妈谈。

And I was trying to sort of find out what exactly had happened before I talked to my mom.

因为我不想让她难过，或者说，在我完全弄清楚状况之前，我不想跟她谈。

Because I didn't want to upset her, or I didn't want to talk to her until I knew exactly what was going on.

当然，这句话的潜台词是，你妈妈可能有过婚外情。

Because the implication, of course, with "You are not my son," is that your mom had an affair.

有可能。

Could have.

是的。

Yep.

我当时还想，"那也挺好的。"

And I also thought, "Well, good for her.

我希望她有过。

I hope she did.

我希望她有过一段爱情。"

I hope she had some love."

嗯。

Huh.

"但她为什么不告诉我呢？"

"But why didn't she tell me?"

还有所有这些事情。

And all these things.

那段时间我跟爸爸谈过几次，但他说了一些特别离谱的话。

And I spoke to my dad a few times during this time, but he said the most crazy things.

他会说类似“你没发现我们从来都不亲近吗？”这样的话。

He said things like, he went, "Did you not notice we never bonded?"

我就说：“对，发现了。”

And I was like, "Yes."

确实是这样。

That did.

他真的很——

He was really-

我可以去理个发。

I can get a haircut.

……他会把我打倒在地，以前他经常踢我、打我，就这样把我打翻在地上。

... he hit me across the, he used to sort of kick me and hit me and things like that, across the floor.

我就说："是的，我显然注意到了我们没怎么亲近。"

I'm like: "Yes, I clearly noticed we didn't bond."

"是啊。

"Yes.

你觉得呢？"

What do you think?"

这真是又好笑又糟糕。

It's kind of hilarious but awful.

不过话说回来，后来我意识到，如果你有——我和我兄弟做了DNA测试，所以如果我们是一样的——

But anyway, so eventually I realized that if you have a-- My brother and I took a DNA test, so if we were the same-

啊

Ah

……男人是一样的……

... men are the same...

所以基本上，如果我们有相同的DNA——

So basically, if we had the same DNA-

当然。

Sure

……如果匹配的话，那就意味着我和他是一样的。

... matching thing, then that would mean I was the same as him.

所以我们做了测试，然后我拿到了结果。

So we did that, and I get the results.

我的助理把结果发给我，我整个人都懵了。

My assistant sends me the thing, and I'm blinded.

我完全搞不清楚状况。

I can't really work out what's going on.

然后我的助理说：“真的很抱歉，但你是你父亲的儿子。”

And my assistant went, "I'm really sorry, but you are your father's son."

我跟我兄弟说了这件事，我当时简直气炸了。

And I talked to my brother, and I just was incandescent with rage.

更让我生气的是，即使过了这么多年，我已经远离了他，而且我还去当面质问我父亲关于我们小时候遭受的虐待。

And it was more about the fact that even after all these years when I had got away from him, and I'd gone to confront my dad about the abuse we had as a child.

这差不多是20年后的事了。

This was nearly 20 years later.

但他还是能控制我，我还是被他牢牢掌控着，他能这样影响我，让我产生这么强烈的情绪，还能伤害我。

And yet he was still able, he had such a control of me and such, I was still in his thrall that he could affect me like this and make me have such strong, and hurt me.

因为我觉得这就是问题所在，很难……

Because I feel that's the thing, it's hard to...

这真的太糟糕了，你不得不接受一个事实：你的父母，本该是养育你、对你好、照顾你的人，却以伤害你为乐。

It's so fucked up that you have to factor in that a parent, one of the people who's supposed to be your provider, and be kind to you, and look after you, enjoys hurting you.

这是一件很难走出来的事情。

It's such a difficult thing to Get over.

你可能会想：“哦，对，他有他的问题。”

You can think, "Oh, yeah, he had these problems.

他有那么多的问题。

He had all these things."

但一个人却以伤害你为乐，从中获得快感。

But someone who enjoyed, got pleasure out of hurting you.

这真的很难……

It's such a tough one to...

即使另一边有深厚的爱，就像我对妈妈的爱那样，这依然很沉重，是我必须不断面对的事情。

Even if you have great love on the other side, as I do for my mom and everything like that, it's just a lot, and it's something I constantly have to deal with.

请继续收听。

Stay With Us.

33位总统。

33 presidents.

我凌晨四点半给总统打电话，他接了。

I called the president at 4:30 in the morning, and he answered.

太空探索七十年。

Seven decades in space.

我们想看看下一颗星星之外有什么。

We want to see what's beyond the next star.

60届超级碗。

60 Super Sundays.

他们每年可能都是联盟里最强的队伍。

They were probably the best team in the league every single year.

五万三千五百个谜题。

53,500 puzzles.

我每天都会用不同的起始词。

I use a different starting word every day.

两万五千个食谱。

25,000 recipes.

我喜欢一锅出的菜，因为我不爱洗锅。

And I love a one-pan recipe because I don't love washing pans.

《纽约时报》。

The New York Times.

庆祝175年来一直帮你了解世界。

Celebrating 175 years of helping you understand the world.

现在就到nytimes.com/subscribe订阅吧。

Subscribe now at nytimes.com/subscribe.

如果你不介意分享的话，你对你父亲说的最后一句话是什么？

What are the last words you spoke to your father, if you don't mind sharing?

我说：“好的。

I said, "Okay.

保重。”

Take care.

我会再跟你聊的。”

I'll talk to you."

我心想：“不，其实不会了。

I went, "No, I won't, actually.

这是我们最后一次通话了，但保重。”

This is the last time we'll talk to each other, but take care."

你挂电话的时候感觉怎么样？

How did you feel when you hung up the phone?

非常开心。

Euphoric.

哇。

Wow.

就是希望这一切赶紧结束，而且我明白，我对我父亲说了那些话，因为他当时也在临终，我知道他快不行了，所以我知道再也见不到他了。

Just for it to be over, and to understand that I'd said to my father, because he was dying as well, and I knew he was dying, so I knew I wouldn't see him again.

然后就是跟他说一句“不”。

And to just sort of say to him, "No."

他说我必须相信。

He said I had to believe it.

他就是这么跟我说的。

That's what he said to me.

嗯。

Huh.

他说——

He said-

他说——

He said-

……“我必须相信你不是我儿子。”

... "I had to believe you weren't my son."

然后我说：“不，是你选择相信的。

And I said, "No, you chose to believe it.

这是你自己编出来的。

You made this up.

没有任何证据。

There was no evidence.

没有确凿的证据。”

There was no hard evidence."

“你只是猜测了一些事情，我觉得很明显他……”

"You surmised something, and I feel it's clear that he..."

你知道有时候人会那样做，我自己也做过——

You know how you can do, and I've done this in my life-

……对于某些让我感到羞耻的事情。

... with certain things I was ashamed of.

但每个人都会这样，你懂我的意思吗？

But everyone does it, you know what I mean?

哦，那件事根本没发生过。

Oh, that never happened.

当然。

Of course.

你就是会那样做。

You just do that.

你会说，"哦，是的。

You're like, "Oh, yep.

我做了那件事。"

I did that."

我的意思是，你把它放进盒子里，然后塞到床底下。

I mean, you put it in a box, you put it under the bed.

对，当然。

Yeah, of course.

他那样做了，所以我觉得这对他来说是有道理的——

He did that, so that I feel that justified to him-

……他对我那样，对我施加暴力，是有道理的。

... his behavior towards me, his violence towards me.

但后来这又说不通了，因为他对我弟弟也是那样。

But then it didn't make sense because he was like that with my brother as well.

所以整件事就是这样。

So the whole thing.

而且还有一点你得明白，你没法从一个不讲理的人那里得到逻辑或道理——

And that's the thing, is another thing you have to understand is you cannot get logic or rationale from an irrational person-

……一个精神有问题的人。

... and a mentally ill person.

但这真的很难。

But it's so hard.

这也很难放下，因为那太刻意了，而且太——

That's also so hard to let go of because it's so willful and so-

你能看到，总是有一个计划在那里。

... you can see there's always a plan there.

但这就是为什么我觉得你对你父亲说的那些最后的话如此有力。

But this is why I find these final words you spoke to your father so powerful.

因为那真的是，你在结束它——

Because it really was, you were ending it-

——按照你自己的方式，对吧？

... on your own terms, right?

你在夺回那种你觉得自己生命中大部分时间都没有的力量，那种你如此沮丧、如此愤怒，觉得他仍然压在你头上的力量，用那句最后的“这是我最后一次跟你说话”。

You were taking that power that you felt you didn't have for so much of your life, that you were so frustrated, so angry that he still had over you, with that final, "This is the last time I will talk to you."

这感觉非常有力——

It feels like a very powerful-

——结束也许，一段关系不会因为某人去世而结束，但这感觉是一种非常有力的方式来收尾——

... end is probably, a relationship doesn't end because someone passes, but it feels like a very powerful way to close out-

是的。

It was

……那次对话。

... that conversation.

真的很好。

It was really good.

我想那就是那种兴奋感的来源。

And I suppose that's where the euphoria came in.

我感觉自己真的……

I felt really...

我变了，而且真的，当我父亲去世的时候，那只是几个月之后——

I changed, and really when my father died, which was only a few months later-

……

...

我记得我变了，我一直是最小的那个。

I remember how I changed in my, I was always the baby.

我一直是被保护的那个，你们都不告诉我事情。

I was always the one that was protected, you didn't tell me things.

而且以前我其实是那种，怎么说呢，总是被欺负的那个。

And I historically was the one that was sort of, he was kind of picked on and everything.

但我记得就在他去世后不久，我就变成了父亲的角色。

But I remember just right after he died, I became the father.

我成了我们家的顶梁柱。

I became the daddy of our family.

嗯。

Huh.

从那以后，我觉得我整个人都变了。

Since then, I feel my whole thing has changed.

我在家里的地位完全变了。

My whole position in my family has changed.

你觉得这是为什么呢？

Why do you think that is?

通常来说，家里最小的孩子不会成为那种父亲般的角色。

Normally, the baby of the family doesn't become the sort of father figure in the family.

嗯，我觉得这可能要回到那一刻，我当时就是掌控了局面。

Well, I think it's perhaps going back to that moment of I just took control of.

我掌控了那个局面。

I took control of the situation.

我说：“这是我最后一次跟你说话。”

I said, "This is the last time I'm going to speak to you."

然后我就跟他彻底了断了。

And I was done with him.

彻底了断。

Done with him.

后来我终于感觉好多了，也变强了，结果他又出现了——

And I eventually got to a place where I felt good and strong, and then there he was again-

哦。

Huh

……又回到了我的生活里。

... coming back into my life.

而且就算他去世之后——

And even after he died-

……他还是把事情搞砸了。

... he still fucked up.

我刚才说的就是这个意思，就算一个人走了，那些影响或者连锁反应——

That's what I was saying, just because someone passes, well, the sort of tendrils or the ripple effects of this-

……当然会在其他关系中体现出来。

... relationship, of course, play out in other relationships.

我很好奇，比如在你的第一段婚姻里，你谈到和父母之间那段非常艰难、痛苦的关系——

And I'm curious about, in your, for example, your first marriage, you're talking about this very difficult, painful relationship with a parent-

……对孩子的影响。

... to a child.

所以我想知道，首先，你和你父亲的关系是如何影响你在第一段婚姻中的相处方式的，还有你自己对做父亲的看法。

And so I'm curious, first of all, how your relationship with your father might have manifested in the way you were in relationship in your first marriage, and also in conversations about fatherhood for yourself.

你是怎么想的，比如“我想要孩子吗？

How did you think about, "Do I want to have kids?

我准备好迎接这件事了吗？

Is this something that I'm ready for?"

我觉得我当时并没有那样想过。

I don't think I did think like that.

我觉得你的身体和大脑非常聪明，而且有保护性。

I think your body, your mind is so clever and protective-

所以，我小时候经历的很多事情，我显然无法处理或应对。

... that so many of the things that happened to me when I was a little boy, I clearly was not able to process or deal with.

比如身体和精神上的虐待，以及我父亲显然以伤害我为乐的事实。

Like the physical and mental abuse, and the fact that my father clearly enjoyed hurting me.

我无法应对那些，而且我也没有去应对。

I couldn't deal with that, and I didn't.

我童年有很多事情我都记不起来了。

There was so much of my childhood I couldn't remember.

直到我……

And it was only when I...

所以我当时就想，哦，我结婚挺早的。

So I just sort of thought, oh, I got married quite young.

我娶了一个脾气挺大的人。

I kind of got married to someone who was quite an angry person.

而且我，我想试着去改变她。

And I I wanted to try to fix her.

我想让她开心。

I wanted to try to make her happy.

我觉得那就是我的责任，或者说那让我觉得舒服。

That was what I felt was my job, or that was a place that I felt comfortable.

我有点觉得我让她控制了我们的关系。

I kind of feel I allowed her to control our relationship in a way.

然后我又想，哦，对，我们有了个好房子。

And then I just sort of also thought, "Oh, yes, we've got a nice house.

现在该生孩子了。

Now we'll have babies."

我当时想，'哦，现在就该这么做。'

I thought, "Oh, this is what you do now."

就是有这种惯性。

It's just got this sort of thing.

而且对我们来说，生理上确实挺难的。

And it was difficult for us, just sort of physiologically.

幸好没发生。

Didn't happen, thank goodness.

但我也觉得，我就是那么做了。

But also, I feel I just did it.

我当时就像在梦游一样。

I was in this kind of sleeper state.

我——

I-

按照你以为的步骤——

Following the steps you thought-

你应该采取的步骤。

... you should take.

而这样做的时候，就好像解锁了什么。

And in doing that, that kind of unlocked.

就像我的大脑在说：“好了，你现在准备好了……”或者“你不应该进入这个重大的事情——

It's like my brain was like, "Okay, now you're ready to..." Or, "You shouldn't go into this thing, this major thing-

……你人生中的重大改变，作为一个男人，如果不了解你在这个领域发生的全部历史的话。”

... of a change in your life and your life as a man, without knowing the full history of what happened to you in this area."

你的——

Your-

就在那时，所有的事情都涌了出来。

And that's when it all came out

……你的大脑一直在保护——

... your brain had been protecting-

完全正确。

Totally

……你自己。

... yourself.

当然，是的。

Absolutely, yeah.

然后，哦，这正处在即将成为父亲的边缘。

And then, oh, this is at the precipice of potential fatherhood.

当然，是的。

Absolutely, yeah.

所以对我妻子来说真的很难，因为我们不仅在这里，我们很幸福，我们都很开心、成功，等等等等，我们打算要孩子，所以从那个状态变成了我，就像，精神崩溃了——

So it was really hard for my wife because not only are we, here we are, we're lovely, we're all sort of happy and successful and blah, blah, we're going to have kids, and so it went from that to me going, like, having a nervous breakdown-

……不想要孩子，然后想结束婚姻。

... not wanting to have kids, then wanting to end the marriage.

所以这真的——

So it was really-

哇

Wow

……

...

是的，对她来说太痛苦了。

I do, it was awful for her.

但我感觉，我身上的每一件事都建立在谎言之上。

But I feel like I felt like every single thing about myself was based on a lie.

我不是指我的性取向或者类似的东西。

And I don't mean about my sexuality or anything like that.

当然。

Sure.

那根本不是问题。

That was not an issue at all.

我觉得有时候人们会以为那是原因。

I think sometimes people think that's what it is.

但完全不是那样。

That's not it at all.

你想说说吗，因为你向你妻子出柜为双性恋，你妻子当时是——

Do you want to speak to, because you identified as bisexual to your wife, your wife was-

……

...

我是说，是的。

I mean, yeah.

她之前认识我的男朋友——

She knew my boyfriend before-

……那些事情。

... that, stuff like that.

但那不是人们可能以为的那种摩擦。

But that wasn't the friction people might think.

不是。

No.

那是什么？

What was?

是不是你意识到自己经历的那些事情有多严重？

It was this sort of you realizing the scope of what you'd been through?

就像那种潜伏的东西，像那些俄罗斯间谍一样。

It's like a sort of sleeper thing, like those Russian spy things.

你突然醒过来，发现自己好像被设定好了要做某件事，或者你意识到自己一直在……

You sort of wake up, and you're kind of programmed to do something, or you realize you have been...

我觉得我所有的互动方式，还有我……

I felt like everything about the way I interacted, the fact that I-

……处在那段关系里，为什么我会进入那段关系，我寻求的那种熟悉感，我就觉得我……

... was in this relationship, why I had gone into this relationship, the familiar I'd sought, I just felt like I...

而且还有，我小时候发生了那么可怕的事情，但我从来没有真正理解或处理过它。

And also just the fact that this horrible thing had happened to me in my childhood, and I had never really understood it or processed it.

所以我就想彻底重新开始。

So I just wanted to start all over again.

那就是我当时的感觉。

That's what it felt like.

而且我没办法……

And I couldn't...

而且任何不把它当回事的人，或者没有——自己亲口说出来本身就很难——

And anyone who didn't take it seriously or didn't-- Saying it aloud yourself is so hard-

……当那种情况发生时，真的说出“这就是发生在我身上的事”或者“这就是我正在经历的”是非常困难的。

... when that happens, just actually saying, "This is what happened to me," or, "This is what I'm going through," is so difficult.

因为你，而且想到可能有人不相信你。

Because you, and the idea that anyone might not believe you.

啊。

Ah.

或者，是的。

Or, yeah.

你没法待在那些人身边，因为那感觉就像你又被推回了那个情境里。

It's impossible to be around those people, because it's like you're being shoved right back into it again.

所以那真的很难。

So that was really hard.

我就是做不到。

I just couldn't.

我不得不彻底切断——实际上，我不得不结束我的婚姻。

I had to completely cut my-- I had to end my marriage, actually.

哇。

Wow.

因为我知道，我绝不能处在那种被怀疑的境地。

Because I just knew I could never be in a situation where that was doubted.

你是说，在那段关系里，确实存在一些怀疑吗？

And are you saying that there was some doubt there in that relationship?

但我也觉得，她很生气，而且她——

But also, I think she was angry, and she was-

她的生活也改变了。

Her life changed, too

她的生活被彻底打乱了，被撕碎了。

... her life was thrown, just ripped apart.

而且我觉得，说实话，我真的非常理解她。

And I feel, I do honestly really empathize with her.

但我那时候太脆弱、太敏感了，简直到了疯狂的地步。

But I was so fragile and vulnerable, it was just insane.

我甚至都认不出那个自己了。

I couldn't even recognize myself to that person.

这确实很沉重，艾伦，我很感谢你愿意分享这些……

It's a lot, Alan, and I appreciate you going into...

我也想给这个对话带来一些轻松的气氛——

I want to bring some joy into the space, too-

好啊，那挺好的。

Yeah, that'd be nice

……因为刚才的气氛确实有点压抑，你懂我的意思吧？

... because it's been like, you know what I mean?

那说说你和格兰特的关系吧。

So your relationship with Grant.

因为最终你嫁给了格兰特。

Because eventually, you marry Grant.

你和格兰特结婚多少年了？

You've been married to Grant for how many years now?

哦，好像有一千年了。

Oh, a thousand.

不，我们在一起22年了。

No, we've been together 22 years.

22年，差不多吧，是的。

22 years, something like that, yeah.

看起来你在第一段婚姻中，当你开始面对那些经历时，并没有感到被认可。

It seems like you didn't feel very validated in your experiences in this first marriage when you were beginning to grapple with them.

我想知道格兰特是如何让你感到被相信、被倾听的。

And I wonder how Grant made you feel believed, listened to.

你还记得有没有那么一个时刻，也许是第一次，你心想：“他在听我说话，他相信我。”

If you remember a moment, maybe even a first moment, where you were like, "He's listening to me and he believes me."

其实从一开始就有这种感觉，而且我跟他在一起的时候，很早就有这种感觉了，因为我在进入那段关系的时候，已经是一个完全不同的人了。

Really from early on, but also, I felt like that with him from way early on because I was also a very different person when I came into that relationship with him.

我完全不是原来的那个我了。

I wasn't at all the same person.

我们认识的时候，我已经39岁了。

I came in, we met when we were 39.

哦。

Oh.

或者说，我们开始这段关系的时候，我39岁。

Or started the relationship when we were 39.

所以在那之前，我已经经历了不少事情，包括那段婚姻的结束。

So I'd been around the block a few times from that, the end of my marriage.

当然。

Sure.

我也谈过其他恋爱。

I'd had other relationships.

有些还挺美好的。

Some lovely.

离婚之后，我确实有过一段非常美好的感情。

After my marriage, I did have a really lovely relationship.

然后又经历了一段非常糟糕的关系，接着又有一段美好的。

And then I had a very toxic one again, and then I had a lovely one.

所以就像坐过山车一样。

So it's sort of a yo-yo situation.

但我总觉得那些美好的关系，就像一束光，让我明白，"哦，我明白了。

But I sort of think of the ones that I, the nice ones as being these sort of moments of light that made me see, "Oh, I see.

是的，这就是——

Yes, this is-

……这是可能的。"

... this is possible."

虽然最后没成，但后来我又陷入了对某个人的迷恋。

And it didn't work out, but then I kind of fell back into the thrall of someone.

所以很明显，我当时就是在处理很多事情。

So I was just obviously working a lot of things out.

当然。

Of course.

但等我遇到他的时候，我已经差不多想明白了，就想着：“我不再……

But by the time I got to him, I was kind of done and was just like, "I'm not...

我觉得我了解自己的局限。

I think I know my limitations.

我知道自己能做什么。

I know what I can do.

我知道自己不能做什么。

I know what I can't do.

我知道自己想要什么，所以咱们试试吧。”

I know what I want, so let's give it a go."

但他有一次说了一句特别美的话，当时我在苏格兰做我的演唱会。

But he said this really beautiful thing once, that I was in Scotland, I was doing my concert show.

而且我会办那种俱乐部派对——那是在我开Cumming俱乐部之前。

And I would do these club coming parties- And this is before I had Club Cumming, the club.

哦。

Huh.

我会办那种所谓的Cumming俱乐部快闪活动。

I would do the recalled Club Cumming pop-up sort of things.

我会当DJ，我的乐队在台上，我们还会请人来。

I would DJ, and my band would be on stage, and we'd have people.

这名字真好。

It's a great name.

确实很好。

It's so good.

这名字真棒。

It's a great name.

然后我会跳舞，接着有人会表演一段，然后你也会，有人会做点什么。

And I would dance, and then someone would do a turn, and you'd do, someone would do something.

有一次，我冲浪了人群，社交媒体上还传得挺广的。

And at one point, I crowd surfed, and it was kind of well documented on social media and stuff like that.

当然。

Sure.

我当时明显喝醉了，还穿着一件小猴子连体衣。

And I was clearly intoxicated, and I was wearing a little monkey suit.

像那种动物吗？

Like the animal?

好的。

Okay.

对，就是那种小猴子连体睡衣。

Yeah, the little monkey onesie.

完全明白。

Totally.

然后我朋友艾迪对格兰特说，格兰特当时在纽约这边，他说：“哦，你在Instagram上看到这些了吗？”

And my friend Eddie said to Grant, Grant was back here in New York, and he said, "Oh, have you seen these things on Instagram and stuff?

艾伦显然喝得烂醉，凌晨两点的时候——

Alan is obviously plastered, and he is at 2:00 in the morning-

穿着猴子套装

In the monkey suit

……穿着猴子套装在人群里冲浪。

... crowd surfing in a monkey suit.

你不担心吗？"

Are you not worried?"

格兰特说："埃迪，是的，我很担心。

And Grant said, "Eddie, yes, I am worried.

显然，这让我非常焦虑。

Obviously, that makes me very anxious.

但艾伦就像一只蝴蝶，我们必须让他自由飞翔。"

But Alan is a butterfly, and we have to let him fly."

哦。

Oh.

这难道不美好吗？

Isn't that lovely?

这真的很美好。

That is really lovely.

他看到了猴子里的蝴蝶。

He saw the butterfly inside the monkey.

是的。

Yes.

这太棒了，因为有时候他会对我说些什么，然后我就想：“我以为我才是蝴蝶呢。”

And that is so great because sometimes he'll say something to me, and I go, "I thought I was a butterfly."

然后他说：“对对对，

And he goes, "Yes, yes, yes.

你是蝴蝶。

You're a butterfly.

你是蝴蝶。”

You're a butterfly.

你是一只蝴蝶。

You're a butterfly."

你现在又用这个了，所以——

Now you're using it again, so-

是的，我确实用了。

I do, yeah.

不过，是的。

But yeah.

他是一只蝴蝶。

He's a butterfly.

但那真的很美好。

But that was lovely.

哇。

Wow.

我觉得他有点像——

I feel he's sort of like-

……

...

我刚来纽约的时候，有一部剧叫《我爱你，你很完美，现在改改吧》。

when I first came to New York, there was a show on called, "I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change."

我当时就想，哦，这名字挺可爱的。

And I just sort of thought, "Oh, cute title."

我觉得我过去遇到的很多人，对我就是这样的。

And that's what I feel a lot of people in my past did to me.

所以我觉得他是第一个不想改变我的人。

So I figure he's the first person who hasn't wanted to change me.

我爱你。

I love you.

你很完美。

You're perfect.

就这样。

Period.

是的。

Yes.

保持你现在的样子。

Stay as you are.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

嘿，我是《纽约时报烹饪》的Tanya Sachinski，我现在在厨房里做几道我最喜欢的周中晚餐食谱。

Hey, it's Tanya Sachinski from New York Times Cooking, and I'm in the kitchen making a few of my favorite weeknight recipes.

我们先从Alexa Weiibel的奶油辣番茄豆配绿叶菜开始。

Let's start with Alexa Weiibel's creamy, spicy tomato beans and greens.

这可能是让厨房里两罐豆子变得超级美味的方法之一。

This is probably one of the most delicious ways to glow up two cans of beans from your pantry.

你只需要一两种新鲜食材。

You need really only one or two fresh ingredients.

我们的洋葱看起来不错，现在该加入晒干的番茄了，我们离晚餐还有大约五分钟。

Our onions are looking good, so now it is time to add our sun-dried tomatoes, and we're about five minutes away from dinner.

《纽约时报》烹饪频道为你准备了你想做的食谱，而且这些食谱都来自你信得过的人。

New York Times Cooking has you covered with recipes you actually want to make from people you can trust.

所以来和我们一起在 nytcooking.com 上做饭吧。

So come cook with us at nytcooking.com.

我是说，你现在在这段关系里，你刚才说你们在一起多少年了？

I mean, you're in this relationship then now how many years did you say?

我们在一起已经22年了。

We've been together for 22 years.

22年。

22 years.

这段非常美好、长久、公开的恋情，是和一位男士的。

This very beautiful, long-term, visible relationship with a man.

所以你也成了某种意义上的同性恋偶像。

So you've become a bit of a gay icon.

但你如何定义自己的身份，这对你来说为什么重要？

But how do you identify, and why is that important to you?

我仍然认为自己是双性恋。

I still identify as bisexual.

我觉得我经历过……

I feel like I've had...

我觉得这是因为，嗯，在很多方面，是因为我觉得太多人给自己贴标签，或者给自己设限——

I think it's because, well, in many ways, it's because I feel too many people assume a uniform, wear a uniform in their-

……在生活和性取向方面……

... lives and their sexuality or their...

我理解。

And I get it.

你想有归属感。

You want to belong.

你想属于某个群体。

You want to belong to a tribe.

但我觉得有时候这会让你错过一些可能性。

But I feel that sometimes you're closing yourself off to the possibility of something.

我一直都是这么觉得的。

I've always felt like this.

所以我在婚姻里很幸福，但我也觉得我仍然有——很多男同性恋者对和女人发生关系感到非常震惊。

And so I'm very happy in my marriage, but I also feel I still have-- There's a lot of gay men are appalled by the idea of having sex with a woman.

也有很多女人对此感到震惊——但我不是那种人。

And there's a lot of women appalled by the-- I am not one of those people.

我喜欢那样。

I like that.

我对女性有吸引力。

I am attracted to women.

我觉得那种——所以我不喜欢说——人们叫我同性恋。

I find that sort of-- So I don't like to say-- People call me gay.

人们叫我酷儿。

People call me queer.

我完全无所谓。

I'm totally fine with it.

这些称呼我都不介意，也不担心。

None of them scare me or worry me.

但如果让我选一个更准确的，我会说双性恋，因为我觉得让大家明白这不只是关于你跟谁在一起——如果你十年都没谈过恋爱呢？

But if I have the choice to correct it, I would say bisexual, just because I feel it's important for people to understand that it's not just about who you-- What if you haven't had a relationship for 10 years?

啊。

Ah.

那你算什么？

What are you then?

啊。

Ah.

你的欲望只取决于你怎么去实践吗？

Does your desire depend only on how you enact it?

我想，也许不是吧。

And I suppose, or not.

我觉得我可以说自己是同性恋，但那样的话我会觉得不太诚实。

I think it's just, I could say I'm gay, but I would feel I would be being disingenuous.

嗯。

Huh.

但我觉得，就像我想让大家理解双性恋这个概念一样，我也希望确保——你把我当成同性恋，我一点也不觉得羞耻或介意。

But I feel in the same way that I want to kind of make sure that people understand the concept of bisexuality in that way.

但——

I also want to make sure-- I've got no shame or qualms about you thinking of me as gay.

哦。

Oh.

但——

But-

有一个，是什么呢？

There's a, what is it?

当你认同自己是双性恋时，那种流动性和开放性对你来说很重要，是吗？

A fluidity and openness that's important to you when you identify as bisexual?

我觉得对某些人来说，这完全是自己的事情。

And I think like some people, I think it's very much your own thing.

我觉得格兰特年轻的时候跟女性谈过恋爱，但他不认为自己是双性恋。

I think Grant had relationships with women when he was young, but he doesn't think of himself as bisexual.

但我是。

But I do.

你这些年，至少在你公开露面的生活里，一直认同自己是双性恋。

You've identified as bisexual over the years of the course of your, at least visible public life.

我在想现在的年轻酷儿一代。

And I'm thinking about the sort of like younger generation of queer people now.

因为你的新剧《踮脚》——

Because your new TV show, "Tiptoe-"

……跟年轻酷儿一代很有关系——

... has very much to do with the sort of younger generation of queer people-

确实如此。

Very much so

……还有老一辈的酷儿群体。

... and older generation of queer people.