我试图和我最好的朋友生个孩子，事情变得复杂了。

我本可以说，我真的很想和我最好的朋友生个孩子。

I could have said, I wanna have a kid with my best friend so much.

很多情侣因为要不要孩子的问题而分手。

A lot of couples break up around wanting or not wanting to have kids.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这确实是个大事，我说的是那种关乎人生根本的大事，没错。

This is a big I mean, this is an existential Yep.

正如你提到的，这是一个重大的决定。

As you've noted decision.

没错。

Yeah.

其实你本可以坚持一下的。

So you could have pushed back.

真的吗？

Yeah?

我本可以直接说，这对我来说是不可妥协的。

I could've I could've just said it's a deal breaker for me.

我会和我最好的朋友生孩子。

I'm I'm gonna have a kid with my best friend.

我爱她。

I love her.

但最终，我没有足够的勇气。

But ultimately, didn't I wasn't brave enough.

你提到过，你在拉玛兹课程里很喜欢小乔，我也一样。

And I really you know, you you mentioned that, like, I love little Joe in the Lamaze class, and I do too.

我常常回望年轻时的自己，为那个曾经的我感到骄傲，哪怕他只是一个在伐木小镇里有点娘娘腔、被欺负得遍体鳞伤的小男孩。

Like, I look back on so many versions of myself as a younger person, and I'm so proud of who he was and how he was himself even when that self was, you know, a little effeminate boy in a logging town who got the crap beat out of him.

但我为那个孩子感到骄傲，他那样真实、勇敢、坚强。

But I'm proud that that little kid was like that and was brave and was strong.

那时候的我，既不勇敢，也不坚强。

And I, at that time, was not brave and I was not strong.

我做了个现在看来很懦弱的决定，就是……

I made what I think now was a cowardly decision to sort of I

你觉得你对自己太苛刻了。

think you're being so hard on yourself.

我的意思是，我明白你说的，但听起来你真的很爱那个男朋友。

I mean, I think it because to me, I mean, I hear what you're saying, and I and but it also sounds like you loved this boyfriend

是的，我很爱他。

I did.

爱得很深。

So deeply.

是的，我很爱他。

I did.

你面对的是一个几乎无解的选择：是跟最好的朋友实现我们十多年来的梦想，还是……

And you I mean, you're faced with kind of an impossible, do I make this real with my best friend, this dream we've had now for over a decade Yep.

十多年了。

Over a decade.

或者说是那个我生命中的挚爱。

Or or this person who's the love of my life.

那时候你觉得自己未来的方向就是那里。

Like, that was where you thought your future was headed.

‘觉得’是关键，我得这么说，因为那段关系，最后没撑下去。

Thought being the operative word, will just say, because that relationship, that didn't last.

对吧？

Right?

确实没撑下去。

It didn't last.

大概一年后，他决定去伦敦，因为那里有个演出邀约。

So maybe a year after that, he made the choice to move to London for a gig that he had booked.

他就这样离开了我们长达多年的感情。

And so he just he walked out of our many year long relationship.

他最终离开的时候，距离他订下演出、决定搬走大概过了三四周，那时候 neighborhood 里只有我最好的朋友还在。

And it was it was when he ultimately did leave about maybe three or four weeks after booking the gig and deciding to move, my best friend was the only person in the neighborhood.

她立刻赶到我公寓，我坐在那儿，完全呆住了。

And she came right to my apartment, and I was sitting there catatonic.

我当时太沉浸在悲伤和震惊里了。

Like, I think I was too the grief or the shock.

那会儿甚至还谈不上悲伤。

It wasn't even grief yet.

就是纯粹的震惊。

It just shock.

我震惊得连哭都哭不出来。

I was too much in shock to even cry.

是啊。

Yeah.

我只记得自己说：至少，咱们现在还能吃点炸薯条。

And I just remember saying, well, at least at least we can have fry now.

她就回了句，是啊。

And she just said, yeah.

当然可以。

We sure can.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是温娜·卢。

I'm Winna Lou.

我设计了《Connections》这个游戏，是《纽约时报》游戏里的一款拼图，我特别喜欢恐怖片。

I write the game Connections, one of the puzzles from New York Times games, and I love horror movies.

我爱我的狗，也爱逗你玩。

I love my dog, and I love trying to trick you.

我是特蕾西·贝内特。

I'm Tracy Bennett.

我每天要选Wordle的单词，这可没听起来那么简单。

I get to pick the Wordle word every day, which is not as easy as it sounds.

我有个有趣的事儿要说，我是塞勒姆女巫审判中那位女巫的后人。

A fun fact about me is that I am descended from a witch who was put on trial in Salem.

《纽约时报》的游戏都是由像刚才你听到的这些人制作的。

New York Times games are made by people, like the ones you just heard from.

去 nytimes.com/games 开始玩吧。

Go to nytimes.com/games to start playing today.

你提到那个婴儿在分手瞬间的画面对你来说如此深刻，这真的很有力量。

It's very powerful to me that this idea of this baby in basically the moment of breakup was so present for you.

你和你最好的朋友们到底是怎么开始把计划付诸行动的？

Like, how did you and your best friends really start putting that plan into action?

是的。

Yeah.

那之后没多久，我们就每周都开会，有时候还不止一次。

I mean, it wasn't long after that that we started weekly meetings, sometimes more often.

所以说，没错。

So yeah.

我是慢慢在处理悲伤，不断消化、反思，花了好多时间待在一间特别暗的房间里，盖着厚厚的毯子，想着养狗，但最后还是没养。

I mean, we you know, I was sort of moving through my grief metabolizing, processing, spending a lot of time in a very dark room covered with lots and lots of blankets, thinking about, but ultimately not adopting a dog.

我当时还计划着去跑马拉松，结果根本没去成。

Like, I was, you know, I was, like, planning on running a marathon, but never did it.

太典型了。

Classic.

我干的都是那种分手后常见的事。

I would do the classic breakup stuff.

是啊。

Yeah.

就是那种。

Of

当然了。

course.

比如，直接把头发剃得跟2006年的布兰妮一样彻底。

Oh, like, shaved like, full Britney 2006.

你懂的。

You know?

不过就在那一年里，我们真正开始认真谈了。

So but it was it was within a year, we really started talking.

一开始我们每周见面，就聊聊彼此想要什么。

And and it was first we would we would meet weekly and just talk about what we wanted.

我们的家庭会是什么样子？

What what do you what does our family look like?

我们想领养孩子吗？

You know, do do we want to adopt?

我们想做试管婴儿吗？

Do we want to do IVF?

我们想用人工授精吗？

Do we want a turkey baster?

你看，其实有好多不同的选择。

Like, what there are all these different options.

我们有很多 LGBTQ+ 朋友，他们都在以各种方式组建家庭。

We had a lot of queer friends who were doing different things with different people.

你知道，我们得搞清楚该用什么法律手段来保障每个人的权益吗？

You know, what legal structures do we need to all all be protected?

这些问题都摆在那里。

Questions.

是的。

Yeah.

你懂的。

You know?

最后，我们一开始只是想弄清楚，对我们每个人来说，什么是最重要的。

And and it was ultimately just about it initially just started talking about what what was essential for all of us.

对吧？

Right?

所以，我显然会成为非生育方的父母。

And so I obviously am gonna be a non gestational parent.

我最好的朋友不想怀孕。

My best friend does not want to be pregnant.

她的伴侣态度模糊，有点想生。

Her partner is agnostic, kind of wants to.

明白了。

Okay.

在这些讨论中，我们都对领养、试管婴儿和找代孕有着非常复杂的感受。

You know, in all of these conversations, we all had very complex feelings about adoption and IVF, you know, using a surrogate.

根本不存在那种让你觉得‘这完全道德上完美无缺’的事。

Like, there's no thing that is like you just feel like, oh, that's totally ethically awesome.

没有。

No.

那在你们一次次开会之后，你们最终是怎么决定的？

And so where did you where did you land as you were having these meetings?

顺便说一句，我想到我父母了。

Which, by the way, I will just note, maybe some you know, I'm thinking about my parents.

他们是一对异性夫妇。

They're they're a straight couple.

我敢肯定，他们根本不会开一次又一次的会来讨论这些事。

I am positive they did not have meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting discussing these things.

就算他们真这么做了，等他们听了这期节目，也可以告诉我一声。

And if they did, you know, they can let me know when they hear this episode.

但对我来说，这种情况很特别。

But this to me feels unique.

当然。

For sure.

没错。

Yeah.

所以，我们当初的打算就是，知道在育儿过程中肯定会发生冲突。

So, you know, we the our intention with this was that we knew that we would be in conflict when parenting.

因此，我们想提前锻炼这种能力，练习如何面对这些艰难的对话，免得等孩子出生后，不得不面对我们那些问题——比如，我们是不是总在逃避？

And so this was almost about building the muscle memory, building the practice of having these hard conversations before there's a living child who is gonna have to deal with our bullshit, you know, our own, like, are we avoidant?

所以我们就是在练习彼此不回避问题，你知道的？

And so it was like we were just practicing being non avoidant with each other, you know?

我记得那时候我真的很开心。

So, you know, I can remember, you know, I was happy.

我不需要非得当生父。

I did not need to be the biodad.

如果我们领养，不管怎样，只要他们决定怎么做，我都只想着当个好父母。

If we were adopting, whatever, if they were gonna do whatever, I I was just, like, happy to be a parent.

当然。

Sure.

我最好的朋友是位有色人种女性，她的伴侣是白人，对她来说，最重要的是不能领养一个白人宝宝，她希望孩子能体现她的族裔背景，这样她才能和孩子分享这份文化认同，也不会在带着孩子出门时，被人误以为不是亲生母亲。

And, you know, my my best friend is is a woman of color, so and it was really important for her to and her partner is white, so it was really important for her to not have a a white baby, to have a baby that reflected her own ethnicity, you know, in a way that so that she could share that with with the child and so that she would not have this horrific experience of being around with a white child and not being perceived as being the parent.

这几乎是她不可妥协的一条底线——她不想和一对白人伴侣一起抚养一个白人孩子。

And that was, like, one of her deal breakers that she didn't wanna be, you know, co parenting with two white parents with a white child.

那种情况对她来说太沉重了，毕竟这可是她人生中唯一一次当妈妈的机会。

That that would just be too overwhelming for her and her experience of her the one time she gets to be a parent Yeah.

在她的生活中。

In her life.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

从其他实际安排来看，比如孩子住哪儿，你们有讨论过吗？

I mean, in terms of the other sort of almost like logistics of it, Did you land on stuff like where would the baby live, for example?

你们谈过这个吗？

Did you talk about that?

谈过。

Yeah.

我的天啊。

We I mean, oh my goodness.

我们有谈过这个吗？

Did we talk about that?

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我们理想中的安排是完全五五开——一起挑一栋公寓楼，各自租一套，就在同一栋楼里。

Like, you know, I think our ideal goal was like a full fifty fifty where I would we would pick an apartment building together and get apartments in the same building.

孩子可以在这两套之间来回住，我们仨每天一起吃晚饭，那就是我们的梦想。

And, know, the kid could go back and forth between them and we would all be present for family dinner every That was that was the dream.

而且我们都是真心希望，家庭能过成这样。

And, you know, with real intention, like, we all kind of wanted our family to look like that.

是的。

Yeah.

我的天，和朋友还有她伴侣住在同一栋楼里，孩子能跑上跑下，一起吃晚饭，这简直就像乌托邦。

I mean, god, but it sounds like a dream to live in the same building as your friend and her partner and have Fry sort of run up or down the stairs when they're able to I mean, it's just to to have family dinner to I mean, it's it's a utopia.

你之前用过这个词，但这个未来图景真的很美好。

I mean, you you used that word before, but it's it's a beautiful vision of the future.

我还想问一下，你们见面这么多，估计也讨论过这个吧。

I'm gonna ask too, just because you were meeting so much, I feel like you might have hashed this out too.

我想问一下，在这么多次讨论中，你们三个人有没有过分歧？

Like, can I ask you, like, in these many meetings, did the three of you disagree on anything?

有没有出现过什么矛盾点？

Was there anything that was sort of a friction point?

这确实让人不得不反思自己的童年，反思自己和父母的关系，以及小时候那些没被满足的期待——当你自己当了父母，这些就更明显了。

It definitely brought up it brought up difficult nothing makes you consider your own childhood and your own relationship to your parents and the traumas of how you were or were not treated in the ways that you wanted as a kid, like having kids yourself.

这种思考。

The thinking.

我的意思是，你之前确实没有过。

I mean, you hadn't had yes.

但那个，嗯。

But the yeah.

这个过程。

The process.

这个过程。

But the process.

我们特意坐在一起，说实话，我就说说我自己吧。

That intentional of sitting around like, so, yeah, you know, I I'll just speak for myself.

我有很多被抛弃的恐惧。

You know, I I have a lot of abandonment issues.

而且

And

我们甚至会专门开一整场会，就聊聊各自的恐惧。

so we would have a whole meeting to just talk about our fears.

这个主意是我最好的朋友的伴侣提的。

It was my my best friend's partner's idea.

就是把那些最深、最不敢说的恐惧都摊开来讲。

And, you know, to bring up those deepest, darkest fears that we were afraid of talking about.

所以我们试着彼此练习这样做，我的恐惧就是——这一切突然就没了。

And so we we we're trying to practice doing that with each other, you know, and my fear of just it all going away.

我刚才说了，我害怕一转身，这一切就再也不真实了。

I just spoke about, like, I'm afraid of turning my back, and all of this is just not gonna be real anymore.

所以

So

你们三个人之前已经详细讨论过要孩子的各种实际问题，也坦白了各自的担忧。

the three of you had been talking through the many logistics of having a kid, talking out your fears.

你能告诉我，你们是什么时候决定要怎么生这个孩子的吗？

Can you tell me when you decided how you were going to make this baby?

是的。

Yeah.

那是个星期天，那时候我们几乎每个星期天都会碰面。

So, you know, it was a Sunday, and we pretty much met every Sunday at that point.

我们躺在公园的毯子上，我最好的朋友的伴侣突然说：你要不要问他？

And, you know, we're lying on a blanket in in the park, and they, you know, I think my my best friend's partner says, well, do you wanna ask him?

然后他们就直接问了：你愿意当精子捐献者吗？

And and they just said, you know, would you wanna be the the sperm donor?

我确实完全没想到这事儿会提上日程。

And I I definitely had to like that would that had not been on the menu.

我本来想说，没这回事。

I was gonna say not.

这事儿我们真的一点都没聊过。

It had not it just had not been something we'd ever talked about.

我觉得挺有意思的是，你们三位里，能提供精子的正是你。

It it's interesting to me that this had not been on the menu because the three of you of the three of you, you are the one who can make sperm.

对吧？

Right?

所以，你之前从来没考虑过捐精这件事？

So you hadn't this hadn't been an option, you donating sperm before?

我觉得我是故意不去想这个。

I think I didn't let myself think about it.

我没主动提过，也没往那方面想。

I think I didn't I didn't bring it up.

我当时特别谨慎，不敢多说。

I I was very deferential.

因为你知道，他们经济条件比我好，至少有足够的钱去做试管婴儿，而且他们也在处理那些繁琐的手续。

Like because I didn't you know, it's like they're sort of they are have a lot more financial security than me or at least enough that they can invest in IVF if they need to, and they're sort of doing a lot of those logistical things.

他们显然……

They obviously One

其中一个人会怀孕生子。

of them is gonna carry the baby.

其中一个人会怀孕，所以我不想越界。

Of them is gonna carry, so I do not want to overstep.

明白了。

Gotcha.

你知道，到最后我才允许自己真正想要这件事，前提是我觉得我有能力去实现它。

You know, like what what happened ultimately was I only let myself want it when I felt like I could have it.

我当时没法承认自己想成为孩子的生物学父亲。

I couldn't admit to myself that I wanted to be the biological father of the child.

我就是做不到。

I could not.

因为如果我真的很想要，但最后我们没走那条路，我不想让自己失望。

Because if I wanted it and I and that wasn't the orientation that we ended up going with, I didn't wanna feel disappointed

你不想让自己失望。

You didn't wanna feel

我自己的成为父母的道路。

my own path to parenthood.

所以我甚至都没在心里提过这件事。

And so I think I didn't bring it up to myself even.

我连问自己‘你想当个生物学上的父亲吗？’都没问过。

I didn't even interrogate myself about, do you wanna be a bio dad?

因为我只觉得自己能参与其中就已经很幸运了。

Because I just felt lucky to be there.

我觉得能当上爸爸，就已经很幸运了。

I felt lucky to be a dad at all.

但是

But

就在那一刻，是的。

then in this moment Yeah.

这条毯子。

This blanket.

在那条毯子上，他们问我，想法是我提供精子，我最好的朋友提供卵子，她的伴侣来怀孕生孩子。

On that blanket, they they they asked me, and the idea was that so I would be the sperm donor and my best friend would donate the egg and her partner would carry the baby.

你提供精子。

You were donating the sperm.

你最好的朋友提供卵子，而她的伴侣负责怀孕。

Your best friend was donating the egg, and then the best friend's partner was carrying the baby.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，从生物学角度来说，你可能会觉得我朋友的伴侣和孩子没有血缘关系，但其实不是这样——子宫里的激素环境对孩子的影响非常大。

So it would somehow, like, magically, biologically you know, I'm immediately thinking like a biologist, right, where I'm like, well, you might think that my best friend's partner doesn't have a biological tie to the child because of the genetics, but that's not true because the the hormonal environment in the womb has a huge biological impact on the child.

你们三个人，从实际角度来看，都以某种方式参与了这个过程。

All three of you are involved in these in these physical, to use a lay person's term, ways.

对吧？

Right?

是你最好的朋友提供卵子，你提供精子。

Like, it's your best friend providing the egg, you providing the sperm.

所以，你最好的朋友特别在意的那一点——孩子要有色人种——这一点肯定会实现。

So then the identity piece that it sounds like was so important to your best friend, being the baby being of color, that will happen.

没错。

That's right.

然后她的伴侣会怀孕生孩子。

Then her partner will carry the child.

你们三个人都以某种方式参与了这个过程。

All three It of you are

是的，我确实有这种感觉。

felt yeah.

我的意思是，这种安排让我意识到，我其实一直渴望却不敢承认的东西。

I mean, it felt like it unlocked in something that I couldn't admit to myself that I wanted.

这种和孩子之间的关系。

That that this type of relationship to the kid.

我之前担心的是，万一一切都消失了怎么办？但如果是孩子的亲生父亲，这份血缘纽带会让这种消失变得没那么容易，你懂吧？

And that that and I think if my fear was feeling like, poof, it could all go away, well, if I'm the kid's bio dad, that is a tie that makes it harder for it to poof all go away, you know?

我觉得这就是为人父母最渴望的一点，也许我们这么想要孩子，正是因为有了孩子，这段关系就永远不会消失。

And I think this is one of the things about parenthood that we want so bad, and maybe why we want kids so bad is like, if I have a kid, that's a relationship that can never poof go away.

我会永远是这个孩子的父母。

Like that that I'm going to be that kid's parent for forever.

你知道的。

You know?

但我觉得，这其实也近乎是一种幻想。作为父母，你可能想留住孩子不同阶段的样子，但最终，你还是得放手，让他成为他自己。

And but I think that ultimately is almost like a myth as well because as a parent, you might wanna hang on to different versions of your kid, but ultimately, you have to let them go as well and become their their own self.

所以这里有一种张力，一种拉扯——既渴望被需要、被渴望，渴望那种无法断裂的纽带、那种亲密、那种如大地般稳固的联结，存在于另一个人身上。

And so there's this tension, this push pull between that desire to be needed, to be wanted, to have that tie that cannot break, that intimacy, that connection that is indelible, that is just as as solid as the ground underneath us, another person, in another person.

而成为孩子的亲生父亲，让我觉得我能拥有这种与孩子之间的联结。

And and I I think that being the bio dad made me feel like I would have that type of connection with our kid.

感觉这是永久的。

It felt permanent.

感觉这是永久的。

It felt permanent.

继续跟我们说吧。

Stay with us.

经历了这么多准备之后，是啊。

After all this planning Mhmm.

过程正式开始了。

The process begins.

确实如此。

Oh, it does.

当你们真正开始要这个孩子的时候，对你们三个人来说，那是什么样的情景？

When you actually start trying for this baby, what does that look like for the three of you?

对。

Yeah.

你知道的，在试管婴儿过程中，一开始主要是我负责。

You know, so in IVF, it was it was my job first.

就是说，我得经常跑医院。

Like, I am in doctor's offices.

我得在杯子里取精，是的。

I am jerking off into a cup Yeah.

你知道的，就是在那种灯光特别亮的诊室里，在一个特别小的房间里，里面居然还带个厕所，至于为什么这样，我到现在也没搞明白。

You know, in a really brightly lit doctor's office in a tiny little room that has a toilet in it for some reason that I still do not understand.

我得先提供一个样本做基因检测，然后再提供一个样本做冷冻测试，接着还得再提供一个。我最好的朋友会陪我去所有的预约。

I had to give one sample that was just to check genetics and then another to go a freeze test and then another, and my best friend is coming with me to all the appointments.

我们依然经常见面。

We are still meeting all the time.

好的。

Okay.

然后，比如我从诊室出来，就会跟她击个掌。

And then, like, I come out of the room, and I, like, give her a high five.

她一看自己的手，就哎呀一声。

And she's like and then she, like, looks at her hand, and she's like, ah.

我说：别这样。

And I'm like, no.

不行。

No.

我用左手，然后马上洗手。

I jerk off with my left, and then it's and I wash.

就是这样。

Like that.

对。

Yeah.

我洗手了。

I I wash my hands.

好了，左撇子。

Okay, lefty.

是的。

Yeah.

你懂的。

You know?

所以当时我最好的朋友特别想参与进来，是的。

So we were all my best friend really wanted to be involved Yeah.

参与我做试管婴儿的整个过程。

In my in my part of the IVF process.

她确实参与了。

And she was.

她一直都在，就在那之后不久。

She was there all the time, and it was just after that.

我捐完精液，样本通过检测后，一切就突然安静下来了。

After I donated the sample and the sample got cleared, everything went quiet.

你和她之间的沟通，是的。

Communication between you and your Yeah.

最好的朋友和她。

Best friend and her.

明白了。

Okay.

那个鱼苗群聊，我们所有人都在群里，结果现在突然一点动静都没有了。

The the fish fry group chat, where it was literally our phones has this like fry group chat, and it it's just quiet.

这让你感觉怎么样？

How does that make you feel?

你觉得到底发生了什么？

What do you think is happening?

我脑子里各种念头转得飞快。

I'm just like, you know, my mind is going a mile a minute.

我本来就容易焦虑。

I'm a very anxious person.

我就在想，他们可能是因为马上要怀孕了，所以趁还能出门，赶紧多跑跑，把该去的地方都去一遍，再做移植。

And I'm just thinking about all of it, you know, they are like, well, because they're gonna be pregnant soon, and so they're doing a lot of travel to sort of get as much travel in as as possible before they can do the implantations.

他们正在为这件事做准备，你知道，精子捐赠挺让人难堪的，但那些抽取和移植用的注射，对身体真是很大的负担。

They're sort of ramping up to do this, you know sperm donation is kind of humiliating, but the injections and stuff for extraction and implantation are really tough on your body.

所以我只是在感同身受，他们现在正全力以赴，而我的部分已经完成了。

And so I'm just I'm sort of empathizing, like, they're just really, you know, gearing up to do what is like, my work is done.

所以呢，就是

And so, know, it's

一种空间。

a kind of space.

他们在给自己留空间。

They're they're and they're taking space.

是的。

Yeah.

他们需要空间，这完全没问题，你知道的。

And it's totally fine for them to take space, you know.

我以前接受了好多年的心理治疗，学会了一件事：别人退一步，并不意味着出了什么问题。

I was in therapy for a lot of years, learning that just because someone is taking space doesn't mean that, like, Right.

这并不意味着最糟糕的事情就要发生了。

You can just Does not mean that the worst thing is happening.

对。

Uh-huh.

他们是什么时候重新联系你的？

And when did they get back in touch?

大概是几个月后吧。

It was maybe a couple months later.

我当时一直在努力不让自己去担心会发生什么巨大的变化。

I was really, you know, trying to stop myself from fearing some massive shifts.

然后我收到一条群聊消息，上面就写着：我们该谈谈了。

And then I get a text, you know, on the on the group chat that just said we should talk.

他们跟你说了什么？

What do they say to you?

他们说，我最好的朋友的伴侣想当卵子捐赠者。

It was just that my best friend's partner wanted to be the egg donor.

好吧。

Okay.

这意味着如果我提供精子，我们俩都是白人，所以我们的孩子也会是白人。

And that meant that if I were the sperm donor, the two of us are white, and so our our kid would be white.

再说一次，我觉得我最好的朋友想生一个有色人种的孩子，因为她只有一次当妈妈的机会。

Again, I think, you know, my my best friend wanted to have a a baby who's a person of color because she gets to be a parent once.

这正是她作为母亲的全部经历。

That is that that is her parenthood experience.

她的伴侣也只有一回当父母的机会，他们不确定以后还能不能再要孩子，而她希望成为孩子的生母。

And her partner gets to be a parent once, and they didn't know if they were ever gonna have another kid, and she wanted to be the bio mom.

所以当你的朋友的伴侣说她想当卵子捐赠者时，你把这些线索串起来，对你来说这意味着什么？

So when your best friend's partner says, I want to be the egg donor, you put these pieces together, that that means what for you?

这意味着我不会提供精子。

That means that I'm not gonna be the sperm donor.

我觉得这就是讨价还价的开始，我立刻就说，其实我从来就没非得当孩子的亲生父亲。

And I think that's where bargaining came in, and I immediately started saying, well, I never needed to be the bio dad.

但最后的情况是，他们也不打算用精子库。

But what ultimately happened was they all you know, they didn't wanna use a sperm bank either.

我们已经讨论了这么多年，所以我早就把算术算清楚了。

So we had spent so many years discussing all this that, like, I already knew the math.

你早就算清楚了。

You knew the math.

意思是，既然你不当精子提供者，他们也不用精子库，那他们到底跟你说了什么计划？下一步打算怎么做？

Knew mean if they if you weren't gonna be the sperm donor and they didn't wanna use a sperm bank, then what what did they tell you was the plan, the next step for them?

他们正在和另一个朋友商量，而且已经跟那个朋友谈过精子捐赠的事了。

They were talking to another friend, and they had already begun talking to that that friend about sperm donation.

而我，却成了这个我从未离开过的过程之外的人。

And so I was outside of this process that I had been not outside of ever.

天哪。

But, oh my god.

我的意思是，所有事情都串起来了。

I mean, this is everything was coming together.

你甚至都不敢奢望的事情，居然成了真——你居然能当上生物学上的父亲。

These things you hadn't even allowed yourself to hope for, being a bio dad happening.

然后是一片沉默，接着他们告诉你，他们决定继续下去了，但不是用你的精子，而是换了一个其他捐精者，听上去你还认识这个人。

Then there's silence, and then they tell you basically that this is they're moving forward, not just not with your sperm, but with a different donor who it sounds like you even know.

我这里说的还不是那个其他的捐精者。

And I'm not even talking about that other donor.

那根本不是我想重点谈的事情。

That's really not where I wanna put the focus.

我只是想说，这种安排，天啊，一定让你特别心碎吧。

I'm just saying like, this arrangement, god, I mean, that must have been devastating.

你当时是什么感受？心里是怎么想的？

How did you what was the emotional response for you?

我一开始只是拼命克制，不想给他们任何压力。

I at first was just trying so hard to not put pressure.

我忍着没说，是因为我不想显得在操控他们。

I was just holding back because I didn't want to feel manipulative.

我不想说，你们俩，咱们已经努力这么久了，我真的很想要这个孩子。

I didn't want to say, you guys, we've been doing this for so long and I want this so bad.

就像我之前说过的，这就像一次太空发射，每个人都得把钥匙插进去一起转动。

Like, I said on that conversation that this is like a spatial launch where, like, we all have to put our keys in and turn them.

我们每个人都得参与进来。

Like, we are You

你这么说的？

said that?

是的。

Yeah.

如果有人对以这种方式拥有孩子没有发自内心的热情，那这件事就根本没法进行。

Like, we're if if anyone does not feel enthusiastically like they can turn their key on having a kid in this way, we can't do it.

你明白吗？

You know?

我觉得要是换作我，我这个人更自私，肯定早就崩溃了。

I feel like if I were in your position, I'm a much more selfish person, and I would just be devastated.

我会想，我内心最丑陋的部分就是：你说什么？

I'd be like, the ugliest part of me would be like, what do you mean?

我的意思是，我爱你，但这就是我，我最不堪的一面。

Mean, I love you, but this is me again, the ugliest part of myself.

我们从十八岁就开始聊这个了，你知道的，不是说我当生物父亲，天哪。

We've been talking about this since we were 18, you know, like not me being the biodad, but my gosh.

你内心有没有哪个部分，曾经大喊大叫、哭得稀里哗啦，甚至闹脾气？

I mean, was there some ugly part of you that was like screaming and crying and and throwing a fit?

很久都没有了。

Not for a long time.

我觉得那个部分终究得释放出来，但它的根源要追溯到我的童年——那时候，男人唯一被允许表达的情绪就是愤怒。

And I think that that part did ultimately need to come out, but it goes all the way back to my childhood and how the only emotion men were allowed was anger.

我从来不想变成那样。

And I did not ever want to be that.

而且我当时感觉，我是在跟自己对话——她作为非生母的经历，正好映照了我作为生父的体验。

And I also, I felt like I was talking to myself, like her experience of not being the bio mom mirrored my experience of getting to be the bio dad.

我根本不能生气。

And I could not be angry.

我能理解她。

I could I I understood her.

因为你懂。

Because you got it.

对。

Yeah.

我懂。

I got it.

你有没有想过，这个计划还有没有可能挽救？

Did any part of you think that some part of this plan could be saved?

比如，就算换一个精子捐赠者，你也许还能以某种方式参与孩子的成长。

Like, even if they went with a different sperm donor, maybe you could be involved in the kid's life in some way.

你辛辛苦苦规划的这一切，有没有哪一部分是你还想保住的？

Like, was any part of this plan you'd work so hard on salvaging?

他们确实得这么做，你知道的，我不是没参与，只是多了一个第四方。

Oh, they they had to, you know, I became it's not that I wasn't involved, it's just that there was a fourth person involved.

我明白。

Sure.

另一个

The other

精子的事儿，你知道，三个人是伴，四个人就挤了。

sperm And, you know, if if if three is company, four is a crowd.

我的需求，说实话，没他那么重要，他得先决定自己想不想当个父亲。

And my needs were, you know, not as important as his to figure out if he wanted to be involved as a parent.

对。

Right.

所以，说到底，这真是最难处理的一点，因为我其实还是希望——我还是想继续参与孩子的成长。

And so, you know, ultimately was And that was one of the hard things to navigate Cause I was still I did still want to You want co still

当个共同父母。

be a co parent.

是的。

Yeah.

但现在事情复杂多了。

But It's so much more complicated now though.

没错。

Exactly.

真的复杂太多了。

It's so much more complicated.

而且我觉得，后来他们得自己去弄清楚很多事，比如新捐精者的选人标准，以及他将来要扮演什么角色，这些我都不是关键决策者。

And, you know, I think they then had to go figure out a lot of stuff that they did have to figure out on their own, that I was not key to those decisions about their new sperm donor and what role he was gonna play.

我想，我们所有人之前那些对话，其实都是在练习如何谈论这些难开口的事。

And we all, I think, were just all of those conversations that we had had to practice talking about the hard thing.

我们试过了，但还是不够。

We tried, you know, and and it wasn't enough.

就像一个突然破掉的气泡。

It was like like a bubble that popped.

可那时候我手里什么都没有。

And then but I had nothing to hold in my hands.

我当时根本不知道该怎么面对这种悲伤，因为很少有人能体会到，差点当上父母却没当成是什么感觉。

I, you know, I had no, I had no roadmap for even the type of grief that I was feeling because the most, you know, I don't know how most other people feel about almost having a kid.

而且很大程度上，因为没人会聊这个话题。

And and in part because most people don't talk about that.

大多数关于想要孩子的故事，结局都是孩子出生了，可我呢？我什么都没有。

Like, most stories about wanting a kid end with having a kid, and I was just like, but I have nothing.

在这段失去的经历里，我真的找不到任何可以抓住的东西。

I just I have nothing to hold on to in this whole experience of loss.

说实话，你讲出了一个非常真实但也特别难说的问题——比如不孕不育，确实很多人都在经历这样的挣扎。

Well, I mean, yeah, you're articulating something very true and and very tricky because, you know, when we hear stories about someone I mean, infertility, for example, is it is absolutely something people have to people struggle with.

很多人因为各种原因，没法按自己希望的方式拥有孩子。

People aren't able to have kids in the way they want to have kids for so many reasons.

但你们三个——你、你最好的朋友，还有她的伴侣——当时是在探索一种非传统、非核心家庭的模式。

But because the three of you, you, your best friend, her partner, were sort of charting this, you know, this this nontraditional, non nuclear family structure.

那时候，这种家庭根本就没有现成的模板。

You know, there was no roadmap for that family.

你们是在一步步摸索着建立的。

You were building it.

但正如你所说，这种失去也没有任何指南。

But then also, as you say, there was no roadmap for the loss.

这种悲伤，恐怕连跟别人说都很难，更别提让他们理解了。

This grief was probably even difficult to share with with other people to get them to understand.

是啊。

Yep.

你有去参加你最好的朋友和她伴侣的分娩吗？没有。

Were you there for the birth of your best friend and her partner's No.

她们生孩子的时候，我正好在外头出差，之后很长一段时间我都很难抽身去看她们。

I I was actually traveling for work when they when they had their kid, and it was really hard for me to to go visit them after the birth.

拖了好几个月才去，这对她们来说真的很痛苦。

It took many months, and that was really painful for them.

你知道吧？

You know?

而且这确实

And it is it

我想说得清楚一点，你并不是这个孩子的共同抚养人。

I mean, I just wanna be really clear, like, you are not a co parent to this child.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

No.

你并没有以那种方式参与这个孩子的生活——那些你原本会参加的会议，这根本不是那么回事。

You are not involved in this child's life in the way that, you know, those meetings you'd This is not Fry.

这不是你和你最好的朋友18岁时聊过的那个孩子。

Is not the baby you and your best friend had talked about at 18.

这是另一个孩子。

This is a different baby.

这是个完全不一样的孩子。

This is a different baby.

对。

Yep.

所以花了很长一段时间。

And so it took a long time.

我觉得那些我一直压抑的情绪，阻碍了我真正享受当舅舅的快乐。

And I think all those feelings that I wouldn't let come out were stopping me from the genuine joy of being an uncle.

你知道的。

You know?

我觉得悲伤有一件挺奇怪的事，就是它真的夺走了那份快乐。

I think grief one of the funny things that grief did is and it it did steal that joy.

它夺走了我陪伴朋友、感受他们人生重大转变的那份喜悦。

It did steal the joy of being able to be present for my friends, and experience this huge life transition that they had.

我明明想好要去看他们，心里也想着要去，可身体就是动不了。

I I would, like, get up and be like, I'm going to see them and they're and I physically could not do it.

你還想當父母嗎？

Do you still wanna be a parent?

我一輩子都會想當父母。

I'll never move on from wanting to be a parent.

永遠都會。

Not ever.

你明白嗎？

You know?

我覺得美國人特別不擅長面對一件事，那就是人生本來就帶著一種淡淡的憂傷。

Like, I I think one thing that Americans are really bad at dealing with is that life is inherently melancholy.

美國人確實不太會處理這個。

That That Americans are bad.

就像說，

Like,

法國人就

French people,

他们真的懂这个。

they've really got it.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

法国人特别懂那种无聊和空虚，真的。

French French people understand ennui, man.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

就是说，

It's

嗯，没错。

like Uh-huh.

人这一辈子，要么当父母，要么不当，就这么简单。

You get one life and you get to be a parent or you don't.

但不管是哪一种，都特别不容易，你知道吧？

And both of those are really hard, you know?

我现在就是接受了这样一个事实：我这辈子一直想当父母，但很可能永远当不了。

And I'm just in a place of accepting that I'm a person who's always wanted to be a parent who probably never will be.

但这并不意味着我不能去关心和滋养年轻人。

And that doesn't mean that I can't nurture and nourish young people.

我有几个最好的朋友有孩子，对我来说，能当一个愿意听他们说话、陪在他们身边、给他们做饭的大人，特别重要。

And a couple of my best friends have kids, and it's really important for me to be an adult who listens to them and who shows up for them and who cooks for them.

我跟另一个最好的朋友的孩子一起揉过意大利面团。

You know, I've I've I've made pasta dough with my other best friend's kid.

这种经历，我确实有过。

You know, I've had that.

我正想问你这个呢。

Was gonna ask that.

我经历过那种时刻，你知道的。

I've had that moment, you know?

她特别喜欢面团的触感，直接就抱了上去。

And it was, you know, she she loved the feeling of the dough so much she hugged it.

我还留着她抱着面团的照片。

And I have a picture of her hugging the pasta dough.

天哪。

Wow.

它

It

那种喜悦超出了我身体能承受的范围。

was more joy than my body could handle.

而且你知道，当父母这件事在社交上特别孤单，所以我尽力去陪伴我生活中那些为人父母的朋友。

And, you know, and so being there being a parent is so isolating socially also, and so trying my best to show up for other for the parents of my life.

所以，这不只是关于孩子，更是关于你能不能让身边父母的育儿之路不那么孤单。我已经开始把这看作是我能扮演的一个重要角色。

So, you know, it's not just about the kids, it's also like, can you make parenthood a little less lonely for the parents I've in your I've started to view that as a a role that I can play that's really important to me.

是的。

Yeah.

说实话，我突然意识到，你年轻时对当父母有着非常具体的想法。

I mean, it it strikes me that you had this very specific idea of what it meant to be a parent when you were younger.

但现在，你其实已经拓展了——也许不是对‘当父母’的理解，而是对关怀与养育这个概念的范围。

And at this stage, you know, you've really sort of expanded, maybe not your notion of being a parent, but this idea of care and nurturing.

你小时候就一直深藏着这种渴望，对吧？

That was always that was your deep desire, right, as a kid.

你现在确实在践行这份渴望，只是方式和你当初想象的完全不同。

And you are doing that, but in a very different way than you imagined.

但你刚才说了一句话，我觉得会引发很多人的共鸣——你说：‘我这个人，永远想当父母，却不会真正成为父母。’

But you said something that I think will will resonate with a lot of with a lot of people, which is I I you said, I'm a person who will always want to be a parent, who won't be a parent.

你刚才说的是什么？

What did you say?

我，是的。

I yeah.

我一直以来都想当父母，也会一直想当父母，但可能终究不会成为父母。

I I've I've always wanted to be a parent, and I will always want to be a parent, and I probably won't be.

这正是我人生的真实写照。

And that's that is the material truth of my life.

那时候，我极度渴望挽回那段我以为自己会当父母的时光，根本无法接受现实。

And they were in the time when I was so desperate to undo the loss of of the time that I thought I was going to be a parent, I couldn't accept that.

我无法接受，这件事让我难过成这样。

I couldn't accept how fucking sad that made me.

而现在，我已经能坦然接受了。

And now I'm in a place where I can accept it.

你和你最好的朋友之间，现在关系怎么样？

Your relationship to your best friend, you two, what is it like now?

是的。

Yeah.

我们俩现在这样，说实话，我从来不怕会失去她。

We are I mean, I personally was never my fear was never losing her.

从来没有。

Not ever.

我只是觉得我们经历了很多。

I just felt like we had been through so much.

我们确实是人生伴侣。

Like we we had Yeah, we were life partners.

对我来说，这一点从未改变。

To me, we were we were That hasn't changed.

这一点，真的没变。

That for That hasn't changed.

我们之间确实需要很多修复，我觉得这还会是一段终身的旅程。

I mean, we have There's been a lot of repair that has been necessary, and I think there I think that is gonna be another lifelong journey.

我们依然非常亲密，我觉得我们会用一生去滋养彼此，更加用心地陪伴对方，还有各自建立的家庭。

We're still very close, and I think we're gonna spend our life, nurturing one another and still being more present for one another and and the families that we each build.

听到这些我真的很开心。

I'm so happy to hear that.

我是说，在这段对话里，我一直在想，组建家庭的方式其实有很多，但每一种都特别不容易。

I mean, throughout this conversation, I'm I'm I'm thinking that there are so many ways to make a family, and every single one of them is so hard.

是不是

Is that

特别不容易。

So hard.

这就是你们想表达的核心意思吗？

Is that the takeaway of all this?

就像你选的任何一条路，

It's like any route you

选哪条都挺难的。

choose is just like it's hard.

真的，简直难如登天。

It's, like, fucking impossible.

但也不是不可能。

It's possible.

你真是让人难以置信。

Unbelievable It how you yeah.

不是的。

No.

这太让人情绪上难承受了，因为它勾起了我们童年和原生家庭的很多往事。

It's just and it's so emotionally fraught because it brings up so much stuff from our childhood, our family.

每个人都有心理创伤。

Everyone has trauma.

我快被压垮了。

I am getting so stressed.

你知道我们该怎么结束这次访谈吗？

You know what we have to do to end this interview?

我们得做拉玛兹呼吸法。

We have to do the Lamaze breathing.

我

I

我的意思是，这显然是唯一的出路。

mean, clearly, it's the only way out.

我的意思是，好吧。

I mean, okay.

所有这些家庭话题，样样都让人压力山大。

All this family talk, everything's stressful.

听好了，我跟你一起做。

Look, I'm gonna do it with you.

你来引导我。

Lead me through it.

我们来，呃，他，他，他……

It's it's a we'll do a he he he who.

好。

Okay.

准备好了吗？

Ready?

是的

Yep.

他他我

He he I

想再做一遍，我觉得刚才那个‘he’有点没做好。

wanna do it one more time because I think I kinda messed up the he.

好。

Okay.

准备好了吗？

Ready?

再做一遍。

One more time.

我感觉平静多了。

I feel calmer.

我确实感觉好多了。

I actually feel better.

我确实是这样想的。

I legitimately do.

乔，咱们得用个精彩的结尾收场。

Joe, we gotta end on a

精彩的结尾。

high note.

非常感谢你这次的对话。

You so much for this conversation.

和你聊得很愉快。

It's been a delight.

非常感谢你。

Thank you a lot.

《现代爱情》团队包括戴维斯·兰德、艾莉萨·古铁雷斯、林·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。

The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alyssa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.

本集由里瓦·戈德堡制作。

This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg.

这一集的剪辑由林恩·莱维和戴维斯·兰德负责。

It was edited by Lynn Levy and Davis Land.

我们的混音师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯。

Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.

本集的原创音乐由艾莉西亚·贝图普、马里昂·洛萨诺、帕特·麦卡斯克和丹·鲍威尔创作。

Original music in this episode by Alicia Beitoupe, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell.

丹还为我们创作了主题曲。

Dan also composed our theme music.

《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯主编，李米亚负责《现代爱情项目》的编辑工作。

The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

如果你想向《纽约时报》投稿一篇散文或一段简短的爱情故事，我们会在节目笔记里提供详细说明。

If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes.

我是安娜·马丁。

I'm Anna Martin.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.